Motor : Holden tweaking V8 for LPG

[mavss]

I noticed in this month's issue a snippet about Holden preparing the V8 to use LPG for the VE.

Firstly, they didn't mention whether it was the Gen III or IV but that doesn't matter.

It went on to say that LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol which I didn't know. Wonder what it is?

Anyway, if this pans out, is anyone willing to run their GenIV (supposed) VE on LPG and if now, why?

Personally, with the way petrol prices are going *up*, as long as there isn't any noticeable power loss, or issues with engine longevity, then I see no issue.

[STEVEO]

from memory i think the current lpg octane rating is around 100 - 102 points, if tuned correctly and with the gen3 already with a decent compression ratio the car should still perform good...ive been having thoughts of running straight lpg in my vn as its a high comper it should be good, the only prob with lpg is tends to burn out valves, other than that its a very clean fuel source and cheap as well, too bad about the smell lol...
cheers steve

[Nobby]

It would still sound the same right?

[EL2]

It would still sound the same right?

Not necessarily!

I used to own a GQ patrol 4x4 with dual fuel. It had a free flowing sports exhaust system. On petrol, the exhaust note was different, and more so on overrun, when the exhaust burbled....

[Danv8]

It would still sound the same right?


LPG would slightly tone down the exhaust note. Mate had a VQ Stato with dual fuel that had a half decent zorst system and when it run on petrol it was slightly louder and had more of a crackle and pop. When it was running on LPG it didn't sound as sweet and it didn't crackle and pop.

[Oldmonroman]

Could you imagine this!! VZ Monaro/LPG/ NO BOOT!!.

[SV8VY]

If you run duel fuel there is a compromise and you can see a drop in power of around 10% which you dont want.
If however tuned only for LPG it should run just as good as petrol.
Will run the motor hotter though and seals will crack over time I am told (thts why they run petrol on start up to lube everything up)

[mmciau]

Did Motor say whether Holden is also looking at the Alloytec V6 too as currently, Holden are not offering LPG.

Mike

[mavss]

Did Motor say whether Holden is also looking at the Alloytec V6 too as currently, Holden are not offering LPG.

Mike
It only mentioned the V8.

[Marco]

I'd be willing to run a V8 on LPG if it was a good enough system, no problem at all.

90% of my driving is done along freeways where the amount of power you actually have doesn't really matter. I'd be all for anything that cut down my fuel costs for these sorts of trips. If I'd lose 10% running a dual fuel system, so be it.

I'd prefer a dedicated LPG system tuned to suit the particular characteristics of gas to a dual fuel system though.

[ASC-07]

Could you imagine this!! VZ Monaro/LPG/ NO BOOT!!.

:lol: Might aswell seal up the boot lid!!!

[mavss]

I think the article mentioned it was being specifically designed for a dedicated LPG system.

I'm considering giving my V8 to my father when I upgrade to my next ride, but current fuel costs are a concern. However, if I could retrospectively fit a Holden designed LPG system, it would seal the deal.

After all, why should we be the only ones who have all the fun :)

[shepp0]

if its a dedicated system then this sounds awesome, dual fuel is the devil

ive heard lpg can have a octane rating as high as 115

[Ghia351]

Although its information from a Oil company it seems mostly accurate: BP auto gas information: http://www.bp.com.au/products/LPG/lpg_product_info.asp

and most here would find the passage under "Performace" is very relevant.

[Devil CV8]

If however tuned only for LPG it should run just as good as petrol.
It's a pity ford aren't able to get the same power out of the dedicated LPG falcons as the petrol falcons then... something like a 30kw loss....

[rocks-crewman]

I ran my VRSS on lpg (and petrol) for 5 years and it was great! I had an Impco gas throttle body mounted on the end of the petrol throttle body (via a adapter) and she ran great. On a trip across Aust I made the mistake of not using enough petrol and dried out some valve guides - was a good excuse to get the heads redone. What I am getting to is that it used the same amount lpg per hundred as petrol (after the heads were done it was better on gas) (about 12 litres per hundred), sounded great and was obviously cheap to run (@$22 of lpg got me 500kms). I am surprised that more aussie manufacturers have not taken advantage of the low gas prices and made more dedicated lpg cars (like ford has). An lpg LS1/2 (or Boss 260) you'd think would attract more V8 buyers put of the (alleged) poor fuel economy.
Just don't get caught running out of fuel on a dedicated LPG car - no lpg jerry cans lying around!

[Ghia351]

I am surprised that more aussie manufacturers have not taken advantage of the low gas prices and made more dedicated lpg cars (like ford has). An lpg LS1/2 (or Boss 260) you'd think would attract more V8 buyers put of the (alleged) poor fuel economy.
Just don't get caught running out of fuel on a dedicated LPG car - no lpg jerry cans lying around!

I think part of the problem with dedicated LPG is that couriers etc like the extended range that duel fuel gives you yet your tune is a compromise to allow running on both with some form of efficiency. The older cars start far better on petrol which may incorrectly keep away new potential buyers not aware of today's systems and their superior running. Running regularly on petrol sure helps keep the internals lubricated better then the dryness of LPG if your engine is not built to run on LPG and as you added no jerry can will save you if you run out in an LPG-only car which might also keep away those still used to duel fuel cars. The Federal governemt also hasn't helped by stating they were going to bring in excises on LPG to slowly match petrol only to now state this plan has been delayed for several years.

[Ghia351]

It's a pity ford aren't able to get the same power out of the dedicated LPG falcons as the petrol falcons then... something like a 30kw loss....

The BA e-gas is also down 5nm over the petrol and both numbers peak 250 rpm lower. Wonder why?
E-gas: 156kW@4750rpm 375Nm@3000rpm
petrol: 182kW@5000rpm 380Nm@3250rpm


On re-reading the BP site they don't mention anything about what effect LPG has on torque while from my own personal experience with a duel fuel VW T4 it definately has more grunt on petrol and if loaded and towing (say 2000kg combined net payload) then forget it when a hill appears. And fuel economy on LPG goes ballistic as well, greater increase % wise then if i were running same load on petrol .
I also wonder if there is a greater variablity in the specs of LPG, i.e. propane/butane mix across Australia and if this is a concern.

[CALDIR]

Hi

Some info for people considering lpg on a new car. Approx 1981/82 a consortium consisting of lpg equipment manufacturers and large scale lpg installers had an agreement signed by the federal government to not add any ridiculous taxes/excises for a period of 20 years in Australia. This agreement did expire a couple years ago and the government could add ridiculous taxes to lpg if they now wanted too. I reckon if every car were running lpg, lpg would have crazy taxes added to it.

Because of this excise protection in the early 80's companies felt protected to promote and install lpg as an on-going and dedicated concern to make a living and hey LPG installations did become very popular in the 80's/90's, consumers were easily reaping the rewards when lpg was sometimes around 75% cheaper than petrol per litre! Now as the ratio from lpg per litre to petrol per litre got closer, the time taken to break even with the savings of using lpg insallation took longer, sometimes longer than a normal 2 or 3 year lease period...depending on kilometres travelled of course.

Now that lpg has increased its $$$'s percentage per litre v's petrol per litre the installation of lpg into vehicles has considerably reduced with people choosing to run on petrol only. I think lpg would work great on a new V8 Commodore but I do not think it will be a big seller due to the price of lpg not been as cheap in comparison to petrol as it used to be. I would dare say it would be tuned for maximum economy and not power output.

I think the Falcon dedicated lpg option was designed for economy and not power output and also think of it if Falcon's lpg car was more powerful than a petrol car.....WHAT THE? is what half the Falcon owners would be asking!

If a car has a dedicated aftermarket lpg system fitted to a car it will more often than not have the same power, or in some cases offer MORE POWER, check with GASRESEARCH in Victoria. A duel fuel system is always a compromise unless the vehicle can have 2 separate tunes in the pcm with a switch to select between the 2.

Yes you can have an lpg jerry can using a converted bbq gas bottle, I do not know if it is legal though!

regards,

Richard
RIP CLUBVX

[FireyVT]

I read some article that stated that most lpg conversions use a carburetter. That would explain the loss in power and torque in the E-gas Falcons.

[CALDIR]

Hi

I had a vl turbo with efi from the factory that i converted to straight lpg with a carby and gained 30kw!

regards,

Richard
RIP CLUBVX

[Ghia351]

Now that lpg has increased its $$$'s percentage per litre v's petrol per litre the installation of lpg into vehicles has considerably reduced with people choosing to run on petrol only. I think lpg would work great on a new V8 Commodore but I do not think it will be a big seller due to the price of lpg not been as cheap in comparison to petrol as it used to be. I would dare say it would be tuned for maximum economy and not power output.

Yes you can have an lpg jerry can using a converted bbq gas bottle, I do not know if it is legal though!

regards,

Richard
RIP CLUBVX

Just for information, filled up 20 minutes ago at Sandringham (Vic) Caltex and ULP was 101.9c/L (96.9c/L after Safeway docket) and LPG 35.5c/L ( no shop-a-docket allowed) which is a little lower then LPG has been for a while and petrol didn't seem to go up this weekend.

....as to the LPG bottle filling a car....very ILLEGAL.

[Swordie]

A Turbo V8 Diesel would be very nice. More torque and better fuel economy than LPG.

[White Rider]

Theres many things to consider when building an LPG only motor, cam profile, stainless steel valves, manifold type etc. But do it right and youll have a real performer. Colder plugs are also a good idea.

On new cars with dual fuel, a dual map UNICHIP is the way to go- with your custom LPG map you'll pull as much power as on Petrol ( ive seen and driven a nissan patrol 4.8 with this- the curve is near identical at most a 1kw difference).

The future of LPG is direct injection- the problem thus far being that the injectors tended to freeze up.

I run my chev small block (corvette) on LPG and I love it! And the oil stays clean:)

http://www.gasresearch.com.au/ seems to be one of the few LPG companies in OZ that gear toward performance, injection and even forced induction LPG systems.

Match your system well, a lot of places will fit some generic LPG carburretor that doesnt deliver fuel on high revs!

Adam

[VX2VESS]

http://www.gas-injection.com/news-lpg-gas-injection-technologies.html#link1

[White Rider]

Very cool site there.

also: http://www.gas-injection.com/media-releases-gas-injection-technologies.html

LPG octane rating= 110+

[mmciau]

I run my chev small block (corvette) on LPG and I love it! And the oil stays clean:)

Adam


White Rider,
I run a VS SII V6 Acclaim with HBD Gas and I have been told by my mechanic that even though the oil looks clean, there is a higher "acid" buildup in the LPG oil than in a petrol engine oil.

This acid in the LPG oil had been known to dissolve the white metal bearings so I would recommend regular changes as per schedule.

Mike

[White Rider]

Yes of course, I change my oil regularly!

I suppose this is why they have LPG specific oil?

[O5BRKY]

Did Motor say whether Holden is also looking at the Alloytec V6 too as currently, Holden are not offering LPG.

Mike

Just found this :
http://theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15094531%255E643,00.html

[Marco]

LPG injection. About time too.

Given that it's apparently 110 octane (see above) - and there should be no great loss of power if they're doing away with carbies - I see performance potential...

[Marco]

Oh, by the way, that article mentions that the excise on LPG is nil until 2011, then will rise by 2.5c/litre a year until it hits a maximum of 12.5c/litre in 2015.

By way of comparison, excise on petrol is currently 38.143c/litre.

[Delft Maloo]

On a Different note i was talking to a holden staff member recently and he confirmed this would happen but did not give details on how or when. He did state that the only reason holden doesnt have an lpg option on their alloytechs yet is that they ran out of time in testing to meet the launch date of the new vz's, And the system should be an option by the half year approx 1-2 months. Genuine holden product.

[mmciau]

Ah, this looks encouraging - LPG on the V6 because I was seriously looking at alternatives eg Golf diesel, Falcon LPG, Landcruiser Diesel!

Mike

[Ghia351]

Will be very interesting to see which system/company produces the least/most power drop/gain and closest fuel consumption over the equivalent petrol models. I'd also be more interested in an installation that cost NO boot space at all.

[muzza]

The new vapour injection systems look to be a smart way to do LPG, it is supposed to overcome the loss of air in the intake manifold (normally displaced by the gas in older systems) and should produce closer to petrol power.

Having 110 octane is all very well but unless the motor is set up with higher compression to take full advantage of it's higher knock resistance and produce more power there's only so much advanced timing benefits it will bring. I believe Ford raised compression a little with the e-gas falcon, but probably not as much as they could.

I think LPG can run at around 11 or 12:1 compression ratio - be interesting to see just how different Holden are prepared to make their LPG only engines to maintain or improve power over petrol. Nice to have it as a V8 option.

The clincher is boot space - if the tank(s) can hold 70 litres under the floor perhaps by standing the spare wheel up in the boot like they used to then they may have a winner.

[mmciau]

Is the petrol tank for the VE going to be between the wheel arches?

If so, then the boot floor coud be accommodation for the pressure tanks

mike

[Ghia351]

The clincher is boot space - if the tank(s) can hold 70 litres under the floor perhaps by standing the spare wheel up in the boot like they used to then they may have a winner.
On the loaner BA e-gas sedan I had the gas tanks sit where the spare wheel well was, leaving the spare to sit on top hogging the centre of the boot. Your idea of an upright spare tyre with the tanks designed to fit around the remaining under boot area would be ideal and far less intrusive. Only something like those "umbrella" strollers could fit around the spare making it useless for bigger items.