Push for 4WD license

[BLACK 346]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15308044-2,00.html

[GEN III]

Good get them off the road. These mums driving these things are hopeless. Especially coming back from the cost on the M1 all the mums sitting in the fast lane doing 105 in a 110 zone and never move out of the lane. The Ford Territory mums are even coming into the same category.

They piss me off.

[BLACK 346]

Wonder how they would implement it? Would it come
into force for a certain weight of 4WD? Can really put
your RAV4 and such in the same category as say a
2 tonne behemoth like a cruiser.

[VX11SS]

Gen 111
Your post is mindless and generalising, there are as many or more "ordinary vehicle" drivers doing exactly the same thing and infact I am sure there are probably people on this forum who do the same thing. The 4wd issue is just another sideline issue in the various attempts to take away YOUR rights and to implement even more NANNY state laws.
Jay

[GEN III]

Gen 111
Your post is mindless and generalising, there are as many or more "ordinary vehicle" drivers doing exactly the same thing and infact I am sure there are probably people on this forum who do the same thing. The 4wd issue is just another sideline issue in the various attempts to take away YOUR rights and to implement even more NANNY state laws.
Jay

4x4 should be for off road use only. Not to pick the kids up from school and getting the groceries. They "most" people buy 4x4's because they feel they believe it's a safer vehicle to drive. There a nuisance on the road.

That's my view, sorry for not going in depth more.

There's nothing wrong for paddock bashing a 4x4 but don’t use it for everyday use. And my reference to the M1 was realistic, I experience the same stereo typical drive home from there almost every time, and I’m shore many other locals have had similar experiences.

Clearly yous must drive better in NZ or have a little more respect for each other on the roads. In QLD and out west especially if your in a sedan your looked down on, literally.
Take a trip on the Warrego highway and that will really open your eye's.

[Knight Phlier]

What on earth is a Mum from Pittwater (On the Northern Beaches) doing in a Patrol? I guess another 4WD that has never needed to change out of 2WD!

[GEN III]

What on earth is a Mum from Pittwater (On the Northern Beaches) doing in a Patrol? I guess another 4WD that has never needed to change out of 2WD!

Exactly what I'm trying to say. It's pointless. I bet 90% of them are never taken off the road.

[BLACK 346]

I think education would be a better solution than just
plain banning them. If you start that sort of thing,
there is no reason why High performance cars wont
go the same way (Can you justify why you really need
to drive a big powerful V8?).

[Merlin]

Gen 111
Your post is mindless and generalising, there are as many or more "ordinary vehicle" drivers doing exactly the same thing and infact I am sure there are probably people on this forum who do the same thing. The 4wd issue is just another sideline issue in the various attempts to take away YOUR rights and to implement even more NANNY state laws.
Jay

I think Gen 111 was just posting his viewpoint - it was far from mindless just because you don't happen to agree with it.

I don't like 4WD's either - but really don't want to go into the reasons. Everytime this debate has been done it goes for pages and pages and people get pi#$ed off. Obviously plenty of people on this forum probably love their 4WD and will kick up a big stink (as they should be allowed to). :)

BTW - What rights are they taking away - they are just making a 4WD license compulsary. EVERYONE on here harps on about driver training being the key to road safety then dennounce any step the gov. takes towards this. :bash:

[GEN III]

I think education would be a better solution than just
plain banning them. If you start that sort of thing,
there is no reason why High performance cars wont
go the same way (Can you justify why you really need
to drive a big powerful V8?).


That is true. I was just making a personal statement about getting them off the road. I would like to see them disappear or be used for what there designed to be used for. The amount of 4x4's on the roads is insane. That’s why they should require a special license and what has been implemented in certain areas already like a higher TAX for them and higher parking fees.
Weed out the mums and idiots who just buy them because there big. Of course it will punish the people who use them for legitimate purposes (towing boats, off-road) but that’s the same with anything really these day’s.

Just cop it sweet.

[exploder]

What on earth is a Mum from Pittwater (On the Northern Beaches) doing in a Patrol? I guess another 4WD that has never needed to change out of 2WD!


What if its the only car the family has, and their favourite recreation activitly is fishing, maybe they need it to tow the boat?
Not picking on you Knight Philer, I see your point but its not a black and white issue. I chose and SS wagon over a 4wd to tow with because I don't need the extra abilities of a 4wd and the towing is only about 5% of total use.

Imagine if this law did get bought in, people who own 4wd Territories need a special license people who own 2wd version don't? Dynamically the vehicles are the same, where does this leave Adventra vs Commodore station wagon and if they include them both really the Statesman is pretty much dynamically similar in road handling to a Commodore Wagon and then its not much of a step down to a Commodore Sedan.. Where does it stop?

[SteveK]

Gen 111
Your post is mindless and generalising, there are as many or more "ordinary vehicle" drivers doing exactly the same thing and infact I am sure there are probably people on this forum who do the same thing. The 4wd issue is just another sideline issue in the various attempts to take away YOUR rights and to implement even more NANNY state laws.
Jay

Jay, whilst I agree to a certain extent, I think the underlying issue here is the size and weight difference of 4WDs as compared to sedans. In the article, little Bethany would have been knocked 'under' the 4WD when hit, most likely knocked unconsious on impact, whereas with a sedan, atleast the driver may have seen her over the bonnet or consequently not as much head damage on impact. But that's my glancing opinion on the matter.

I do agree though, there should be mandatory driver training for ALL, based on the vehicle the individual drives. Not just cars in general.

Cheers,
Steve

[exploder]

This sort of thing always winds me up, so here goes.

If you ban vehicles because they are too big for normal day to day use, whats to stop the wowsers from saying, well lets ban cars that are too powerfull from the road, because the speed limit is only a 110 and as we all no from the adds speed kills so we'll put a speed limiter on the cars that are left.

If you agree with getting rid of 4wds because you don't like them the ball will start rolling and when the snowball reaches getting rid of v8s what are you going to do then??

Someone here said a short while ago, something about not complaining when somehting happened to a different group and by the time it happened to them there was no one left to complain to... If you think this is a good idea then your in for a world of hurt later on when they decide to ban something you love to own

[White Rider]

Punishing the AWD crowd (adventra, forester, audi) is wrong, having AWD IS safer in the wet.

As for where does it stop, a 4WD is commonly defined as an off road vehicle and thus has a low ratio gear selection.

It still raises a good point about what if a 4WD is your only car and u go offroad and you do tow things and even use the copious space for work during the week- IMO that is the strength of modern 4WD's, so versitile.

Of course the majority of 4WD are probably not used in this way and as a driver of a 4WD I see no problem with a 4WD licence. I'm sick of being grouped with these other mongrels who just wanna hog the road.

We also need to weed out the anti 4WD fanatics, and incidentally if you fancy lying on the ground in the slushy mud putting on snow chains on your 2WD in the freezing cold because your dead set against 4WD's, then thats your right too, just dont bitch about me when I drive past and you get wet!

[exwrx]

Before everyone goes off the deep end, lets look at some facts:

1. someone's child died outside a school

2. it was an accident by virtue of the fact that it the driver did not intend to kill the child, but by a combination of lack of skill, and the height of the vehicle made it difficult to see what she was doing in a confined space

3. the coroner has reviewed all the circumstances of this tragedy, and made several recommendations which may avoid this happening to someone else. The coroner's job is to look at the systemic issues that lead to the tragedy and what lessons can be learned

4. Experts in the field gave evidence to assist the coroner in making recommendtions. This included suggesting banning 4WD's from school zones due to their limited visibility. Another recommendation was an additional licensing requirement for these vehicles.

5. These recommendations are just that - they are the means by which community debate is encouraged and hopefully some action by governments.

By all means express a view, but dont lose sight of why it is that we are having this discussion. If you still dont get it, refer to point 1 above.

[Merlin]

Of course the majority of 4WD are probably not used in this way and as a driver of a 4WD I see no problem with a 4WD licence. I'm sick of being grouped with these other mongrels who just wanna hog the road.


There should be more 4WD drivers like you.

[White Rider]

Thanks man, maybe somone should make some bumper stickers for those 4WD ppl, expressing that the car IS in fact used for what it was designed.

And incidentally its converted to LPG so theres no obnoxious enviromental issues with me.

but yeh, i strayed a bit off topic.

[DaveHAT]

(Gets up onto soapbox)

That article is just another example of the sensationalist media coverage that is typical of todays press. Whilst the very sad & pointless loss of the young girls life should not be trivialised, the finger should not be pointed solely at people with 4wd's and therefore used as an excuse for a 4wd driver witch hunt.

Yes we have a 4wd, so I do not wish to be a hypocrit, but anyone who has sat outside a school when parents are picking up their children will surely have seen the type of dangerous & mindless vehicular behaviour that goes on, AND IT IS NOT ISOLATED TO 4WD DRIVERS.

I think it was ACA that did a vehicle visiblity comparison test between family sedans such as Commodores and Falcons and the visibilty and blind spots were as bad in a sedan as it was in a 4wd. Information worth considering before we all jump on the lets ban all 4wd's bandwagon.


I think education would be a better solution than just
plain banning them. If you start that sort of thing,
there is no reason why High performance cars wont
go the same way (Can you justify why you really need
to drive a big powerful V8?).

Probably the sanest comment in this thread so far.

Keep in mind that is it not the person behind the wheel that is controlling the vehicle?????????????? Did the 4wd itself cause the situation to occur?????? Training and driver awareness programs would seem to me to be a more sensible solution, rather than the knee jerk reaction of "lets ban all 4wd's"

IMHO driver awareness in these type of situations is paramount. Focus on the job at hand (ie picking up the children safely AND NOTHING ELSE), and allow plenty of time to collect the children.

(Gets off soapbox & puts away)

[OzJavelin]

To the best of my knowledge, originally 4x4's were give big tarrif cuts to promote use with primary producers? These financial benefits still exist(?) If we remove those benefits and push 4x4 prices for non-commercial use up to the sky then maybe people will stop buying them? If they are basically the same price as a "nice" car, some drongos will aways buy them 'cos they are "safe". Safe is all relative. If I T-bone a LandCruiser with a F-350 with a bullbar, I don't think the LandCrusier would be "safe" ..

Then again, I might be completely wrong ..

Rod.

[Merlin]

Did the 4wd itself cause the situation to occur??????

Possibly.

I'm no expert on the matter but the actual experts who gave testamony at the enquiry certainly seem to think the 4WD was a contributing factor.

[VX11SS]

My apologies to Gen 111, I over reacted to your 1st post
However before we start down this road some issues need to be cleared up.
1) What constitutes a 4wd
2) what percentage of 4wds have rbenn involved in vehicle on pedestrian injuires, fatalities
3) take it a step further how many large sedans with long bonnets ahve been involved in similar accidents due to the fact the driver has needed to pull out further to see whats going on.
4) how many accidents have been prevented because the 4wd driver could actually see more from ther greater height.
As I see it these are just a few of the endless scenarios that could be used in for or against arguments.
The further you go down this road the further yur individual rights are eroded and the more the Harold Scrubys etc will take off you.
Whats happened to personal responsibility, it seems the more silly laws that are introduced to protect people from themselves the less people actually atke responsibilty for the actions.
(I am not referring to the girl mentioned here in any way)
If some organisations get there way we will be driving at a nice safe 30 mph on any road in any conditions and anyone with an onunce of common sense will be neutered at birth
Cheers Jay

[Merlin]

1) What constitutes a 4wd


Good question - it could be VERY subjective. Maybe weight could be used as a guide. So if your vehicle weighs more than "x" you need another class of license - this would be "fairer" to 4WD owners though probably has a few flaws.



2) what percentage of 4wds have rbenn involved in vehicle on pedestrian injuires, fatalities
3) take it a step further how many large sedans with long bonnets ahve been involved in similar accidents due to the fact the driver has needed to pull out further to see whats going on.


I don't know lets ask Mr Scruby...on second thoughts lets not :mad:



4) how many accidents have been prevented because the 4wd driver could actually see more from ther greater height.


wouldnt have a clue but they are always trying to kill me when i am riding which is why i stay away from them (and buses) like a bad smell :)

[flappist]

This is always a very emotive subject and as I live in "4WD crash central" i.e. Hervey Bay opposite Fraser Island I have fairly strong veiws on the subject.

Firstly, there are two types of 4WD/AWD passenger vehicles in Australia

Commercial and Non Commercial.
Patrols, Cruisers etc are commercial vehicles, they are imported as such and have different ADR compliance parameters to non commercial vehicles e.g. Subaru Forrester etc.

You need a separate endorsment on you licence to drive a manual as opposed to an auto, a light truck, motorcycle etc etc why not a separate endorsment for commercial 4WDs

Part of the test could be Reverse Parking and backing for 100m (that will sort out a few)

As these vehicles would then be a different class they could be excluded from high density busy places such as urban schools at 7-9am and 3-4pm making it safer for the kids. I have always wondered about the mind set of a person who takes a very large ill handling vehicle fitted with a bullbar that has no other purpose than to protect the panels of this vehicle while inflicting as much damage as possible to the object (child) that it has collided with into a place that abounds with small children who are running amuck as kids always do.

I know I sound bitter, twisted and harsh but I live in a place where there is at least one 4WD prang every day and there are MANY MANY people hurt.
You can't drive road trains or tractors in school zones either and this is not a bad thing.

The argument "What if it is your only vehicle" holds about as much credibility as "What if my only gun is a semi auto". If you can afford a Patrol or Cruiser then you can afford a second hand rice bubble for the purpose of child transport. The other argument "Increased visibility and safety" is great except it applies only to the ones inside the 4WD at the expense of everyone else.

Maybe I would feel safer and better protected with a pintle mounted Browning sticking out my sunroof but I suspect others would not see it that way.

Now the flames over this subject will rival "Cat Ladys", "Gun Owners" and "Greenies" so.......

[BLACK 346]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15308044-2,00.html

[VooDoo]

4x4 drivers all hog the roads and run over kids

All Bikies are drug dealers.

All Guns kill ppl

A V8 Owners are all hoons and are involved with illegal drag racing



See the pattern. The media has beat up this so badly that even level headed ppl are confused over the issue.

In many cases 4x4's have better visability than 2wd cars, they have bigger brakes, more ground clearance so your not as hurt if you are run over, travel slower and have advantanges over smaller cars. If you look at the statistic's are less likely to have an accident and your less likely to be hurt. If given the choice to put my kids in a landcruiser or an Excel its a simple choice to make.

Its not the car that is the problem, its the DRIVERS we need to improve. Licencing 4x4 owners is a good thing as long as additional training is included. I'd support it for high performance cars as well (inc all turbo's, V8's, SC cars etc)

[ssberlina]

Possibly.

I'm no expert on the matter but the actual experts who gave testamony at the enquiry certainly seem to think the 4WD was a contributing factor.


I dont doubt you for a minute, but if you look at any inquest you will see that everything gets a contributing factor. !!!!

You could be driving at 60 km/hr in a 100 zone in the wet, but if you have an accident the report will say without a shadow of a doubt that speed was a contributing factor as well.

[Merlin]

A V8 Owners are all hoons and are involved with illegal drag racing


Well thats true isnt it :D



In many cases 4x4's have better visability than 2wd cars,


Long distance visibility yes but at the expense of other road users. Short range visibility is poor.



they have bigger brakes,


But they need them as they weigh more



more ground clearance so your not as hurt if you are run over,


huh? cars knock you over the bonnet into the windscreen. A 4WD impact knocks you down under the wheels.



If you look at the statistic's are less likely to have an accident and your less likely to be hurt. If given the choice to put my kids in a landcruiser or an Excel its a simple choice to make.


The MOST common misconception - EDIT - the statistics actually show occupants of a 4WD suffer the same degree of injuries as those in a passenger car but are more likley to inflict injury on the other cars occupants.



Licencing 4x4 owners is a good thing as long as additional training is included. I'd support it for high performance cars as well (inc all turbo's, V8's, SC cars etc)

Agree

[BLACK 346]

4x4 drivers all hog the roads and run over kids

All Bikies are drug dealers.

All Guns kill ppl

A V8 Owners are all hoons and are involved with illegal drag racing



See the pattern. The media has beat up this so badly that even level headed ppl are confused over the issue.

In many cases 4x4's have better visability than 2wd cars, they have bigger brakes, more ground clearance so your not as hurt if you are run over, travel slower and have advantanges over smaller cars. If you look at the statistic's are less likely to have an accident and your less likely to be hurt. If given the choice to put my kids in a landcruiser or an Excel its a simple choice to make.

Its not the car that is the problem, its the DRIVERS we need to improve. Licencing 4x4 owners is a good thing as long as additional training is included. I'd support it for high performance cars as well (inc all turbo's, V8's, SC cars etc)

Slower? You haven't seen an NT Troopy in full flight :lol:

[flappist]

In many cases 4x4's have better visability than 2wd cars, they have bigger brakes, more ground clearance so your not as hurt if you are run over, travel slower and have advantanges over smaller cars. If you look at the statistic's are less likely to have an accident and your less likely to be hurt. If given the choice to put my kids in a landcruiser or an Excel its a simple choice to make.

Ah yes but would you rather have your kids run into by a Landcruiser or Excel?

As far as visibility, see how many 3 ft tall things within 5 metres you can see out the passenger window (you know, the one that is near the footpath) or imediatedly behind you in your landcruiser as you are parking.....

[lxhatch]

What VooDoo said.

He gets my vote fwiw.

[VX2VESS]

over a certain size yes the small 4wds are not real off road 4wds and you are lower with better vision. try taking the small CRV's etc offroad where the big ones go..they don't make it in the real rough stuff.

[V8R]

voodoo for pm ;)
i drive A) my posodore and B) my parents 3" lifted 80 series.. i much prefer the view out of the 80 when im on the hwy and the streets i can see futher than the car in front.. i can see an accident before its about to happen (potentially) because i can see so much further.. brakes? bloody brilliant.. any braking system that can lock up all 4 315 width tyres, cant be all bad (it does, ive tried, heh).. down from 100 or 60, its better than my car, no question..
as for licencing, definatly a requirement, for 4X4 vehicles.. (or anything that falls into the commercial 4x4 range, has low range gearbox, rar rar rar).. they DO take a bit of getting used to, they will not just change direction like a sports car..personally i say the 80 is 'safer' purely because of the view i get from it, maybo not from its inherent "toughness" during a crash..

YMMV :)

JM

[paulvdb]

The two things that annoy me MUCH more than the 4WD situation (specially since I drive a Terri)

1) Most of the clowns that park around schools seem to exhibit very poor driving skills - irrespective of the vehicle.

2) A lot of the mums are TOO DAMNED SHORT and don't adjust their seat up so that they can see OVER the steering wheel. When I see some of these people looking at the road ahead through the gap between the dashboard and their steering wheel all I can think is how extraordinarily dangerous they are. In my Terri I can see better over the bonnet than in my Magna but there's no way that a small woman in a Landcruiser who can barely see out of the windows is safe! There should, if anything, be a law that allows a cop to pull a driver over who is obviously not able to look out of the vehicle properly. Maybe they should have a template that they place at the front of the vehicle (say 1m high and 1m away from the vehicle - and if you can't read the top line you lose your license - two birds with one stone!)

[VooDoo]

Ive owned 4x4's for years. This car is actually my 3rd only 2wd in 18yrs. I know exactly what the visibility is like. I had larger mirrors, more windows and never once hit anything. Well, except a tree but my front wheels were off the ground at the time (thats another story). I'm not about to get into a pissing comp on here about 4x4's as there is too much intense passion involved on both sides. Having owned both types of car and having my own kids (inc picking them up from school etc) i can see both views very clearly.

I still say it has nothing to do with the type of car you drive but is clearly your level of skill with it, the stupidity of many parents when picking up kids by double and triple parking, stopping in the middle of roads and the schools lack of care with very poor supervision both before and after school. I'd love to see the police out the front of schools every day for 3 mths handing out fines for stupid behavoiur. It would stop a lot of accidents and kids getting hurt.

[Avalanche]

So how many of you arguing this point actually have additional driver training under their belt???? Lets not point the finger at the women if you are no better. :box:

Mrs Avalanche

[Merlin]

So how many of you arguing this point actually have additional driver training under their belt????


I do - and from conversations Iv'e had with other guys on here so do they - its a performance car forum after all.

[exploder]

I admit to some earlier ranting on this topic, but after a bex and a little lie down I decided to have a look into the article a bit more. The expert witness touted in this article and in the court case is;

Dr Raphael Grzebieta
Associate Professor (Structures)
Department of Civil Engineering
MONASH UNIVERSITY

I don't get the link between this guys occupation and training and road safety and driver education, its got a bit of a Scrubbyesq smell about it

[BLACK 346]

over a certain size yes the small 4wds are not real off road 4wds and you are lower with better vision. try taking the small CRV's etc offroad where the big ones go..they don't make it in the real rough stuff.

Yes, you will need a Kia Sportage with dual range
and full chassis for this :D

[sv285]

if you wish to purchase a 4wheel drive you should be able to have that right. why take that away. How many ppl have been killed by 4wld's and how many by high performance cars??? cmon .... what next NO V8's

[VooDoo]

So how many of you arguing this point actually have additional driver training under their belt???? Lets not point the finger at the women if you are no better. :box:

Mrs Avalanche

Done quite a few 4x4 courses inc a Unimog course, Holden driver training, AAMI driver training and Porsche driver training x2. I dont believe you can do too many plus they are a lot of fun. I wouldnt mind getting a REVS licence at some point too.

[Merlin]

if you wish to purchase a 4wheel drive you should be able to have that right.

no-one is saying that.

the proposal is for 4WD licensing ala motorbikes, trucks, buses ect.

[Avalanche]

Voodoo I completely agree with you. I have done a few with Ian Luff Driver Training School & had a ball but time limits me to do the next step. I just get frustrated to hear constantly how driver courses are needed yet no one follows up with taking the necessary action. To answer you Merlin, I understand this is a performance sight but we are still discussing issues that are non-performance such as 4WD. We need to get the younger drivers & those less confident male or female to do these courses & reduce the bad publicity. I came from a 4WD & now have the Avalanche but just because it is a performance vehicle doesn't make me a fantastic driver.

[Merlin]

Voodoo I completely agree with you. I have done a few with Ian Luff Driver Training School & had a ball but time limits me to do the next step. I just get frustrated to hear constantly how driver courses are needed yet no one follows up with taking the necessary action. To answer you Merlin, I understand this is a performance sight but we are still discussing issues that are non-performance such as 4WD. We need to get the younger drivers & those less confident male or female to do these courses & reduce the bad publicity. I came from a 4WD & now have the Avalanche but just because it is a performance vehicle doesn't make me a fantastic driver.

you misunderstood me - i mentioned it is a performance site meaning that a lot of the members would have done advanced driving courses not to say we shouldnt be discussing this issue ;)

[White Rider]

From what I remember about driver behaviour at schools is there seems to be a lot of erratic driving. People who floor the accellerator before looking and try to get from one point to another as quickly as possible (thats often only several meters).

Now this woman is blaming her 4WD for her actions, well maybe that makes her feel a little less guilty but I'd be interested to know the exact circumstances of the incident- was she being one of these erratic drivers? What was a 5 year old child doing in a high school parking lot and so on.

Next is the media, why am I reading that there is a proposal to ban ALL non staff cars from schools yet I hear on the radio that the proposal is to ban 4WD's from schools- well which is it?

[sv285]

well put white rider

[flappist]

no-one is saying that.

the proposal is for 4WD licensing ala motorbikes, trucks, buses ect.

You are absolutley right and this discussion like many others is drawing many and varied opinions.

Commercial 4WDs are a necessary part of society (even I have one) but as they are larger and heavier than a normal domestic vehicle there should be some form of system to prevent a person who has no experience taking command of one of these things.

In an earlier post I mentioned the plethora of 4WD accidents that happen here. A great many of these have one thing is common, european backpackers driving.

Take Fritz or Helga who has thousands of hours in their Merc at 250km/h on the autobahn, put them in a high CofG, ill handling, heavy, right hand drive
shoebox on wheels and launch them on roads that are not 6 lane bitumen and you see the result every day.

In the same way, take a Ms Bubble, 24 years old, did her licence in a Barina last year and has not driven since, hubby buys a Patrol and she uses it as a MILF trolly to drop the sprog off ay school.

If she were required to be tested in the aforementioned Patrol so as to ensure that she is aware of its features and limitations then maybe she may not make an unwitting mistake that could cause a tragedy.

Aviation licences are endoresed not only by feature but for twin engined and turbine aircraft by actual model. This is probably because if you oops in one of them you seldom get a second chance.

Please note I personally am in favour of a separate licence for COMMERCIAL 4WDs not domestic ones.

Commercial: Patrol, Cruiser, Navara, Triton etc
Domestic: Subaru, CRV, Territory, Avalanche, RAV etc.

The difference between these is safety features including airbags, crumple zones etc.

[Inter-ceptor]

4Wds need to stay in the bush! Theres NO need for em to be in the city, not only are they dangerous in car crashes but they make little thinks like trying to look over a 4WD while sitting in a sedan that much more difficult, and this in a way can make another car crash happen.

[Rod]

This thread seems to have wandered a bit from the articles' recomendations -
1. LICENSING a driver according to the type of vehicle they drive. Common sense really, and I wouldnt even mind if it extended to performance vehicles. Careful attention would need to be paid to definitions of types of vehicles for this to be effective though.

2. BANNING 4WDs was only recommended on school grounds. Most public schools have very limited parking places anyway so why not restrict all vehicles other than staff vehicles. I realise this may be an inconvenience at some schools but change rarely suits everyone, this would even impact my routine but not so much I couldnt live with it. Hey walking a couple of hundred metres extra a day might even be good for me :eek:

One more thing, someone questioned one of the expert witnesses in an earlier post,
"Professor Grzebieta, president of the Australian College of Road Safety......"
I believe this may have been what qualified him to be a witness, not his other credentials.

[White Rider]

I often see these "Police now tageting... <whatever>" signs on the road.

I'd love to see a "Police now tageting... STUPIDITY". That would be awsome.

[Avalanche]

Here is one thing that i have come across recently when researching and subsequently buying a kingquad 4wd quad bike. The owners manual is 90% safety issues , dont ride 2up dont, ride too fast for the conditions etc etc. It was quite surprising to see how many people have been killed on quads. There are many quad training courses out there of which i will do. Yet the people that are killing themselves the most are the ones who buy the most quads Framers. Yet one tafe course instructer can count on 1 hand how many farmers have done his rider training course. Most accidents, over 80% are on a slope of less than 5 degrees. Farmers on quads looking at stock & fences instead of where they are going. Not wearing safety gear. In the end it is the lady who killed that little girl, not the car. Its the riders of the quads that killed them selves or their passengers, its the person holding the rifle or handgun that killed someone not the rifle or gun . Its the young p plater who has mashed the throttle at the wrong time who killed his mates not the car. Driver training & licensing is what is needed. Any way thats my 2 dollars worth im going riding. :booty:

[exwrx]

I admit to some earlier ranting on this topic, but after a bex and a little lie down I decided to have a look into the article a bit more. The expert witness touted in this article and in the court case is;

Dr Raphael Grzebieta
Associate Professor (Structures)
Department of Civil Engineering
MONASH UNIVERSITY

I don't get the link between this guys occupation and training and road safety and driver education, its got a bit of a Scrubbyesq smell about it

I have had something to do with him and I can assure you he is an expert in the field of road safety.

[exwrx]

if you wish to purchase a 4wheel drive you should be able to have that right. why take that away. How many ppl have been killed by 4wld's and how many by high performance cars??? cmon .... what next NO V8's

no one is taking away your right to drive a truck if thats what you want, the issue is whether you should have to undergo additional training to do so.

With rights come responsibilities.

[exwrx]

This thread seems to have wandered a bit from the articles' recomendations -
1. LICENSING a driver according to the type of vehicle they drive. Common sense really, and I wouldnt even mind if it extended to performance vehicles. Careful attention would need to be paid to definitions of types of vehicles for this to be effective though.

2. BANNING 4WDs was only recommended on school grounds. Most public schools have very limited parking places anyway so why not restrict all vehicles other than staff vehicles. I realise this may be an inconvenience at some schools but change rarely suits everyone, this would even impact my routine but not so much I couldnt live with it. Hey walking a couple of hundred metres extra a day might even be good for me :eek:

One more thing, someone questioned one of the expert witnesses in an earlier post,
"Professor Grzebieta, president of the Australian College of Road Safety......"
I believe this may have been what qualified him to be a witness, not his other credentials.

Finally some sanity - thank you for understanding the real issues.

[statesy]

no-one is saying that.

the proposal is for 4WD licensing ala motorbikes, trucks, buses ect.

Oh great something else i have to pay for, don't you think we are slightly over regulating ourselves, the incident in question is an accident, she just did not look thoroughly enough before moving. a 4wd is essentially the same as a four door sedan until it goes off road, in that i mean it is not articulated or overly long, not bogey drive or hard to stop. in fact on the road they behave the same as an equivelently weighted sedan, so what would you propose is regulated to licence? understanding where the blind spots are on your vehicle and taking appropriate steps to ensure safety or you have to pass a test set by a governing body to ensure you can see over the bonnet and you can identify unsafe situation's. My question is where does it stop? this incident could have just been lazyness can you regulate that? it is not difficult to drive a 4wd safely and if you can't safely control a 4wd of todays high standard i feel very sorry for you. as far as statistics go it is probably such a one off thing that it should not require money thrown at it from our pockets.on a differnt note i noticed the rta and good ole rubber lips Bob carr floating the idea of basing the price of rego on engine capacity, this is an example of beuracratic greediness as if it passed i bet the prices will sky rocket. i am seriusly getting tyred of constantly changing goalpost's and the ,NSW "Tax you for breathing" government. gotta love queensland. this is not a dig or intended to offend but if it has it is my oppinoin so harden up :)

[ssberlina]

4Wds need to stay in the bush! Theres NO need for em to be in the city, not only are they dangerous in car crashes but they make little thinks like trying to look over a 4WD while sitting in a sedan that much more difficult, and this in a way can make another car crash happen.

Not trying to flame you but with this sort of logic you would see the banning of all vans / people movers / 2wd's like the 2wd territory / trucks / etc. not just the 4wds. Seriously , If you have a tall vehicle in front of you all you have to do is move back. You dont have to sit up its ass. :rolleyes:

And dont think they would stop the banning there. Why would you need a V8! So they would be banned as well. :confused:

All these poofters & hippies will be happy when we are all driving around in hybrids at 40 km/hr max. :mad:

[muzza]

Well how about the ADR's are modified by putting in a visability requirement for any new vehicle for reverse and rear 3/4 viewing. Sh*t, they ADR just about every other aspect of the vehicles we can buy. Make an object such and such high MUST be visible at such and such a distance etc, otherwise the vehicle must be fitted with one of reverse sensors or camera to cover the blind spot.

The rules could be made retrospective with a certain period for compliance or else no more rego. Might just prevent a few needless dead kids, especially in driveways where most get run over by their own family vehicle........

[mgygto]

We have 3 vehicles in our family - the GTO , a Landcruiser , and an Astra Convertable.

Frankly I agree that driving the Landcruiser takes extra awareness and skill than the Astra. For us it is both Peoplemover AND Horse mover - it tows a horse float. The ridiculous notion from some posters of banning 4WD from the suburbs doesn't recognise that for a larger number of people than you might think they are necessary for things other than off road. But yes it does take extra skill given the weight and the height to drive safely. I would have no problem with a special class of licence for this.

Interestingly the GTO is at least just as dangerous in the wrong hands and again to drive properly takes a level of skill beyond driving an exec or a falcon. High powered cars also come into the firing line from some and frankly again I have no problem with a requirement of an extra "learning" to be able to drive one - safety first as far as I am concerned.

Now as for the Astra ......... the only skill required is how to keep your hair in place with the top down :) no special licence required!!

[White Rider]

There is news of a tragic bus crash killing 2 people near goulburn. The bus apparently veered off the road due to the wet conditions.

Busses are death traps, they are heavy, large and can potentially mow down many innocent people. These bus drivers think they are king of the roads, they always cut in front in traffic and think they are immune to danger. There were many tragedies involving busses that had dragged schoolkids along the ground to their death because the driver cannot see whats going on. They endanger the many lives inside and outside the bus.

BAN THE BUS!

[V8R]

pfft, bus.. ever seen a triple road train? ;)

JM

[paulvdb]

I have had something to do with him and I can assure you he is an expert in the field of road safety.
That might be true but the Monash Uni guys are the ones substantially responsible for much of the current government stupidity. They're the guys convincing the TAC (by abusing statistics) that there's a high correlation between "booze bus" and speed camera advertising, and a reduction in casualty crashes. http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/about/tenyears.html

They completely ignore their own charts!!! http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/about/10yfig1.gif shows that from 1992 to 1996 absolutely nothing changed in Victoria despite all the silly stuff the Government was doing.

As far as I'm concerned these guys allow their good work to get muddled by well meaning potty professors who are so busy being academic that they can't sort out reality from statistical data.

[Phido]

With in 3 years I think we will see licencing for commerical 4WD vechicals.

It can only be a good thing, perhaps it will prompt a revamp of ALL licencing.

I need a licence to drive a boat, go fishing, work on a construction site, drive a motorbike, a truck, own a gun or work in the security industry. I have no idea why 4WD vechicals being obviously a diffrent class, and a proven risk leading to fatalities, requiring additional experience, knowledge and skill, do not need a licence.

I think banning all vechicals except staff vechicals (inc student vechicals) from most city public schools would be a wise move.

[chevypower]

Yes, other things we also need to ban too:

1. crossing the road
2. Using electricity
3. breathing polluted air
4. touching knives

In fact, lets all just live in a bubble so nobody ever gets hurt! This is a stupid debate, just like suggesting L platers shouldnt drive V8s just because one learner in a ClubSport crashed from loss of concentration. A large portion of vehicles on the road are 4 wheel drives, so if they're looking at "special" licensing, why not just make whatever the difference is on the licensing testing mandatory for all drivers licenses? If a driver is incompetant to drive a four wheel drive vehicle, then don't let them behind the wheel of a two wheel drive either!

[fiddynut]

if you wish to purchase a 4wheel drive you should be able to have that right. why take that away. How many ppl have been killed by 4wld's and how many by high performance cars??? cmon .... what next NO V8's

A Ford F150 2x4 and a Ford F150 4x4 - Same car - same size - but one is 4x4. The 4x4 driver has to get a licence but the 2x4 doesn't. Where is the sense in that. Pretty soon they will be restricting all V8s - not enough petrol in the world for them. Where will it stop. We will need a licence to go to the toilet soon.

[chevypower]

LOL how about an excise on toilet paper? 38c per sheet... Steve Bracks needs the extra tax to put back in to our forests....funnily enough if he said it, people would believe it

[dominik]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a law requiring SUV owners to fit some kind of rear view camera device like Lexus use. It might not help with visibility in front of the car where small children can still be caught in a blind spot, but it'd be better than nothing.

[mgygto]

I think banning all vechicals except staff vechicals (inc student vechicals) from most city public schools would be a wise move.

Phido, sorry but thats ridiculous notion. You dont solve the problem, you just move it to a different street which creates more risk for children. Most schools have a very professional approach to how children get dropped off, with monitored drop zones etc.

Put it in perspective - the number of schools in the country, with the number of children getting dropped off, the number of vehicles doing this and you can see that actually this is not a problem. there are more kids killed in driveways than at schools.

[BlueVZSS]

The general populace needs to be educated about 4WD vehicles. If they were better informed they could make better decisions. Many people are currently purchasing 4WDs in the mistaken belief that they are safer vehicles....they are not and the statistics prove it. It is a fact that you are safer in an accident in a Commodore than a big heavy 4WD that is prone to tipping over, has no crumple zone, poor breaking ability etc.

If potential purchasers new the facts about 4WD and safety far fewer would be on the road. We can never have too much driver training and if owners were required to attend government funded "4WD training" that would be a good thing. Tests are a waste of time, it is training that is required.

[Merlin]

The general populace needs to be educated about 4WD vehicles. If they were better informed they could make better decisions. Many people are currently purchasing 4WDs in the mistaken belief that they are safer vehicles....they are not and the statistics prove it. It is a fact that you are safer in an accident in a Commodore than a big heavy 4WD that is prone to tipping over, has no crumple zone, poor breaking ability etc.

If potential purchasers new the facts about 4WD and safety far fewer would be on the road. We can never have too much driver training and if owners were required to attend government funded "4WD training" that would be a good thing. Tests are a waste of time, it is training that is required.

good post - it is already evident from some of the replies in this thread that SOME owners dont even believe their 4WD handles/brakes differently WTF? (ever heard of a higher centre of gravity) Education is needed for some of these guys.

BANNING is not the solution (and is not fair in a free country where choice should count for something), I support education and I do support the proposal for the special license (as long as it is not too expensive to afford).

[mgygto]

The general populace needs to be educated about 4WD vehicles. If they were better informed they could make better decisions. Many people are currently purchasing 4WDs in the mistaken belief that they are safer vehicles....they are not and the statistics prove it. It is a fact that you are safer in an accident in a Commodore than a big heavy 4WD that is prone to tipping over, has no crumple zone, poor breaking ability etc.

.

Actually this is not true and is "selective" use of statistics. What is a fact is that in certain types of accidents a 4WD is more likely to roll, what is known is that in MOST accidents with another vehicle that is head on or side impact you are safer in a 4WD than in a standard sedan. If you have seen the impact of a sedan hitting another sedan and compare that to a sedan hitting a 4WD then it is easy to understand. The BIG issue for those that wish to ban 4WDs is exactly this - they do not want to remove 4WDs from the streets to protect the 4WD drivers, it is because they are more of a safety issue to other drivers.

[Merlin]

One issue is that 4WD's side impact with the top half of passenger sedans (i.e. the windows where there is no crash protection for the car occupants) resulting in greater injury to the car occupants.

Some interesting stats from the ATSB (Aust Transport Safety Bureau):

- The incidence of fatal 4WD crashes increased by 85 per cent between 1990 and 1998 (up 28 per cent between 1994 and 1998). By comparison, the incidence of all fatal crashes decreased by 25 per cent between 1990 and 1998 (down 10 per cent between 1994 and 1998). - NOTE HOWEVER THIS WAS ATTRIBUTED TO THE INCREASED POPULARITY OF THESE VEHCILES

- The proportion of alcohol intoxication amongst 4WD drivers involved in fatal crashes (29 per cent) was higher than for all other types of vehicle operators (for example, 21 per cent of passenger car drivers involved in fatal crashes had blood alcohol concentrations over 0.05g/100ml).

- In all fatal crashes, a significantly higher proportion of 4WD vehicles rolled over compared with passenger cars (35 per cent and 13 per cent respectively).

- Comparison of speed limits at 4WD and passenger car crash sites show that a higher proportion of 4WD crashes occurred in high speed zones (100km/h or over) compared with passenger car crashes (54 per cent and 41 per cent respectively) (see fig. 2). By contrast, a higher proportion of passenger car crashes occurred in lower, urban speed zones (60km/h or under) compared with 4WD crashes (36 per cent and 25 per cent respectively).

- Previous research has concluded that 4WDs are more likely to roll-over than passenger cars as they have a higher centre of gravity relative to their wheel-base. Table 2 supports this conclusion as it shows that a significantly higher proportion of 4WDs involved in fatal crashes rolled over compared with passenger cars (35 per cent and 13 per cent respectively). Table 2 also shows that the proportion of 4WDs that rolled over without a previous collision was over three times the proportion for passenger cars (21 per cent and six per cent respectively). These crashes mostly involved single vehicles that had driven off a straight or curved road and rolled over. It is unlikely that the increased incidence of roll-overs can be fully explained by different terrain and roads used by 4WDs compared with other vehicles.

- The second most common factor was unintended road user error. Half of these crashes included the driver failing to see another road user.

- In 4WD crashes involving multiple vehicles, passenger car occupants accounted for the largest proportion of fatalities (64 per cent). 4WD occupants accounted for the second largest but a significantly lower proportion of fatalities (18 per cent).

[White Rider]

While 4WD tip over more easily than normal cars, it's not THAT easy to tip em over-

In my younger days I had an accident on a tollway with a landcruiser (i was in a civic) - totally my faullt, I was looking for toll change instead of where i was going.... in an attempt to avoid one car I slammed into the the rear/side of a landcruiser, this sent the landcruser fully sideways, at no time did it even look like it was about to tip at all.

another seperate incident on a highway in queensland at 110km/h in an old nissan patrol, we slammed into a roo- due to the older and very poor bullbar design, the bar locked one of the front wheels which played havoc with the handling at that speed, neverthless even after much sideways action and swearving, it didnt not tip.

On the other hand I heard a friend of a friend managed to tip his non 4wd sedan sized ute onto its roof by slamming into a curb.

so there.

[Pro]

This would never happen in texas :D

[Ms_Nawdy]

My heart goes out to all people involved in this tragedy, wether it be a 4WD or any other vehicle.
Spose it goes to show how fast paced our day to day lives have become. There are alway pro's and cons to owning a 4WD, and each individual has their own opinions. What matters most is the attitude we have to owing such a vehicle, and the responsibility we should have in making sure we obtain the skills needed to keep these vehicles safe on our roads. For ourselves and other road users!

[amckiwi]

banning cars from schools just moves the kid / vehicle interchange out onto the road.
That would be a step backwards as at least in the schools everybody should be height challlenged sensitive

I think the licence class should be on a weight basis if you drive a vehicle over a certaqin weight you need an endorsed licence

Stu

[GEN III]

For those of you that have added negative feedback to my reputation I couldn’t really care less. Read all my posts before you start pushing buttons in the heat of the moment.
I'm not on these forums to sugar coat everything or to kiss peoples ass for positive reputation feedback. You need to live in the real world.
Just because what I stated does not fit you’re demographic or opinion simply don’t read it or get over it. :booty:

For the ones that gave me positive feedback I thank you. :lol:

Ohh I never referd once to the incident in the first post. That wasnt even read or taken into context. If you watched ACA last night you would see why.

"Take these weapons of mas destruction from the roads." :rolleyes:

[Knight Phlier]

While 4WD tip over more easily than normal cars, it's not THAT easy to tip em over-

In my younger days I had an accident on a tollway with a landcruiser (i was in a civic) - totally my faullt, I was looking for toll change instead of where i was going.... in an attempt to avoid one car I slammed into the the rear/side of a landcruiser, this sent the landcruser fully sideways, at no time did it even look like it was about to tip at all.

another seperate incident on a highway in queensland at 110km/h in an old nissan patrol, we slammed into a roo- due to the older and very poor bullbar design, the bar locked one of the front wheels which played havoc with the handling at that speed, neverthless even after much sideways action and swearving, it didnt not tip.

On the other hand I heard a friend of a friend managed to tip his non 4wd sedan sized ute onto its roof by slamming into a curb.

so there.

I assume at the tollgates you were doing around 40Km/h? Maybe 60? Realistically I wouldn't expect a 4WD to "FLIP" over at that speed either. Yes the impact on your car and the 4WD is significant, but you have to have a fair bit of force to "FLIP" a 2 Tonne machine as opposed to spinning it. Especially in a Civic. Laws of physics and Inertia play true here and if you did work out the forces the inertia just isn't there.

I have hit the curb a couple of times at speed, and it didn't feel unstable. I thought I farked my car (Which I did the suspension/steering) but have had other situations (on the track) where I knew I was closer to the limit. I'm not having a go, saying I don't believe you but I would say your friend of a friend of a friends friend probably forgot too tell you he was driving his ute like an idiot at the time that resulted in his accident. Cars don't just 'flip' by hitting a curb unless there is some other factor involved.

[O5BRKY]

Honestly, I'm sick of this topic coming up all the b%^&dy time,whether it's trucks,motorbikes... :mad:

[Knight Phlier]

Or Performance cars!!

[exwrx]

Honestly, I'm sick of this topic coming up all the b%^&dy time,whether it's trucks,motorbikes... :mad:

I cant think of a more important topic to discuss than road safety, but sorry to bother you, its only a life that was lost.

Talking about which maf pipe to go for is sooo much more important :rolleyes:

[large]

I did a jim murcott advanced driver course once and at the time a 2002 model Land Cruiser was also doing the course. Now the land cruiser is what I would call a very well engineered vehicle with all the safety features, abs etc. The driver was more than capable yet in a swerve and brake manouvre, in which most who have done this course would be familiar, the cruiser on 50% of occasions had one wheel in the air in the swerve and great handling difficulties to try and pull it up.
My SS at the time could do the manouvre and stop in time at 75 km/h the 4 x 4 failed 50% of the time at 55 km/h. So much for "take off 5 and stay alive!"

Anybody who thinks that a 4 x 4 is safer on the road is completely uneducated. Go and have a look in a 4 x 4 wreckers and count how many of the vehicles were roll over accidents. I will bet you 80% plus are roll over accidents. Do the same at a holden or ford wreckers and count how many are rollovers and I bet its less than 5 %.
In saying that, I do not agree that these vehicles should be banned but an education and driving course at minimum should be mandantory!

[GTGO]

I own a GTO and a Landcruiser.I have more problems seeing out the back of my GTO than the cruiser,even front visibility is not the best in the GTO as you sit so low.Also,if i floor my landcruiser it won't go sideways because the tyres are too narrow,or it won't want to lose traction midway through a corner because the stupid auto wants to change gear at the wrong time.So yeah you ban 4wds ,but lets also ban v8's,turbo's,superchargers,any aftermarket modification,two door vehicles,hatchbacks,anything older than 5 years,and so on - get the point?
cheers
phil

[MNR-0]

I hate em.

Cant see through them so you can't predict whats happening a few cars up
Cant see around them when turning so you may as well be next to a truck
Most 4WD drivers these days are rude biaches who don't give way
They think its safer for them, but its more dangerous for us
They handle badly
They have massive body roll
They can't stop quick enough
They are easier to roll
They can't see 3m in front of their bonnet
They always bash their doors into ours
They are more dangerous for their passengers

Ban em or make it exclusive to 4WD club members. There is no other reason why they are on the road and never taken off-road but for the owners arrogance towards others.

How can a 4WD designed for off-road use ever be considered safe for your kids?

[chevypower]

What type of 4 wheel drives have you ever driven, MNR?

Especially the old V8 sedans with the skinny cross-ply tyres and live axles with leaf springs! I was just trying to think of what questions you would put on a 4 wheel drive license that you wouldnt put on a car license?
The road rules would be the same..... they have a steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedal etc.... you put it in to drive and it goes... the vehicle dimensions are the same (except ground clearance and roof height) Seriously, what more would you have to qualify for? Increase in weight is countered by enhanced stability with wider track and tyres, more power and torque, bigger brakes etc. Go drive a new Discovery! They outperform a lot of two wheel drives..especially in the brakes department!

[BlueVZSS]

Actually this is not true and is "selective" use of statistics. What is a fact is that in certain types of accidents a 4WD is more likely to roll, what is known is that in MOST accidents with another vehicle that is head on or side impact you are safer in a 4WD than in a standard sedan. If you have seen the impact of a sedan hitting another sedan and compare that to a sedan hitting a 4WD then it is easy to understand. The BIG issue for those that wish to ban 4WDs is exactly this - they do not want to remove 4WDs from the streets to protect the 4WD drivers, it is because they are more of a safety issue to other drivers.

I don't think that the statistics are selective as you suggest. You are however correct that a significant safety issue associated with 4WDs is the harm that they cause to occupants of other vehicles (and pedestrians in accidents, particularly when fitted with bull bars.) Bull bars open passenger cars up like can openers and pedestrians have no chance.

Whilst I appreciate that owners of 4WD vehicles in country areas want to protect their pride and joy from damage caused by collisions with wildlife, I can't accept that urban cowbows have the same need for them. I actually object more to the bullbars than the vehicles. If anything should be banned, ban the bullbars in metro areas, not the vehicles.

I think that reverse parking sensors or cameras are a good idea on 4WDs that also have a disproportionately high incidence of fatalities involving children when the vehicles are reversing. Beep..beep..beep doesn't mean anything to little kids.

[cthulu]

Here we go again with this lovely 4x4 bashing again.

So for the interest of safety we should ban 4x4's then ?? Well guess we should also ban all:

VANS (more dangerous for rollovers, idiot drivers, can't see anything from inside or out)

TRUCKS (too big, too heavy, this includes small dyna type ones)

UTILITIES (always a stupid tradesman with all his crap in the back that falls out on the road, ladders sticking out, etc)

STATION WAGONS ( they have as much a blind spot as a 4x4)

MPV's (same as vans)

and many many more things

Come on, it's not the damn vehicles it the stupid drivers in them. If you give the government the oportunity to start banning stuff here and there then don't complain when they ban ALL high performance cars in the interest of safety as you don't need more than 4cyl's to drive around in do you.

Education, education, education, if you teach people to drive properly in the first place then you have much safer roads.

I wish they'd ban stupid Bicycles as they never obey ANY road rules.

[paulvdb]

I will only support this as soon as there's a danger index on every vehicle on the road. As per previous post that mean that all cars have to have their stability tested, including commercial vehicles. Plus you'd have to test visibility out of the vehicle as well as braking ability. You need to do this, not just on new cars, but also ALL cars on the road.

I'm still of the opinion (from real driving experience) that my Territory as safer than ANY of my previous cars even though it's 2 tonnes. NONE of my previous cars had ABS or decent width tyres. My Terri's suspension is much more advanced than my previous cars. Visibility is hugely superior. Yet - there are still examples of my previous cars on the road.

If you have a 4WD specific license, then do you also believe that people should have a special license to drive a van, any car over ten years old, any car that they can't see over the steering wheel of, any car with a lower power to weight than 50KW/Tonne or greater than 100KW/Tonne, etc.

Where do you stop?? That's why I think that Costa's right in saying that it's simply unworkable. Thanks heavens that Scully's gone out of that department. I'm sure he's Scruby's mate. The law would have been in place within a week.

[Swordie]

It would be nice if 4WDs were taxed at the same rate as cars.

[O5BRKY]

I cant think of a more important topic to discuss than road safety, but sorry to bother you, its only a life that was lost.

Talking about which maf pipe to go for is sooo much more important :rolleyes:

I agree with you,BUT this topic always comes up on forums or after accidents involving ANY type of vehicle.
Nothing EVER seems to come about it.
I've owned 4WD's,performance cars and also have driven trucks,Driver education is VERY poor these days and people don't realise that a licence is a priviledge , until something about that is addressed and not just brought up after accidents,nothing is going to change. :confused:

large:Anybody who thinks that a 4 x 4 is safer on the road is completely uneducated

100% agreeable here.

[Pro]

Have they banned guns in Aus yet? (Because you know, people get killed by guns, not by other people :rolleyes: )

[Rod]

<snip>
I was just trying to think of what questions you would put on a 4 wheel drive license that you wouldnt put on a car license?
<snip>

It isnt so much that they should have different questions in the written test, but they should have to pass the onroad driving test in a 4WD in order to be able to drive one on the road. I beleive this is the same distinction made for manual/auto, same written test but if you want a manual license you do your onroad test in a manual car.

[MNR-0]

What type of 4 wheel drives have you ever driven, MNR?
Used to work in a Landcruiser. Driven RAV4s and Patrols.

Not having a dig at you dude, just the useless crap-drivers that think they are safer behind the wheel of a big 4x4. Not all 4x4 drivers are bad.

But they are too big for schools and city driving IMO.

[exwrx]

I agree with you,BUT this topic always comes up on forums or after accidents involving ANY type of vehicle.
Nothing EVER seems to come about it.
I've owned 4WD's,performance cars and also have driven trucks,Driver education is VERY poor these days and people don't realise that a licence is a priviledge , until something about that is addressed and not just brought up after accidents,nothing is going to change. :confused:

large:Anybody who thinks that a 4 x 4 is safer on the road is completely uneducated

100% agreeable here.

Agreed, the real tragedy is that these issues are only seriously considered after someone has died. People will keep getting injured or killed until attitudes, skills and laws change. There is no single silver bullet, but at least we are having an intelligent discussion about it here, and one day, some of this discussion may translate into action.

The real issue is certainly training, therefore the coroner's recommendation for additional licensing for 4WD's. If the govt was fair dinkum and raised licensing requirements for all vehicles, you woudnt hear any argument from me.

[mgygto]

Yes the death was a tragedy - it also happened THREE years ago, so with all this danger for the past THREE years ...guess what.......no tradegy in school drop off zones , a number of them in driveways by sedans and 4WD. Also a point to note from this incident is that the driver was stopped, stayed in gear, took her foot off the brake when she was distracted and hit the child when she rolled forward. It seems extra convenient to blame the vehicle when an attentive driver would have avoided this.

[lizardmech]

Why can't they just send some police to patrol school zones instead of giving out 3km/h over speeding fines on the nearest 80 zone. Parents consistantly do stupid and dangerous things around schools but theres no one ever around to stop them. Almost every time I go through a school 40 zone I will have a parent with a car load of kids tailgate me then use the horn then over take me at 80 while abusing me with the window down. Whats the point of making new laws if they can't even be bothered enforcing the current ones.

[V8Patrol]

and on the other side of the coin .........

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=44859

Oh yeah and be carefull .... its a 4x4 site ! :eek
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/images/smiles/thefinger.gif

[RW EJ]

Good get them off the road. These mums driving these things are hopeless. Especially coming back from the cost on the M1 all the mums sitting in the fast lane doing 105 in a 110 zone and never move out of the lane. The Ford Territory mums are even coming into the same category.

They piss me off.

Get Falcodores off the road, too many times I find them sitting in the fast lane doing 105kph, and it means I have to use another $5 of juice to accelerate the 4x4 back to 110kph, they are enviromental menaces.

[RW EJ]

4x4 should be for off road use only. Not to pick the kids up from school and getting the groceries. They "most" people buy 4x4's because they feel they believe it's a safer vehicle to drive. There a nuisance on the road.

That's my view, sorry for not going in depth more.

There's nothing wrong for paddock bashing a 4x4 but don’t use it for everyday use. And my reference to the M1 was realistic, I experience the same stereo typical drive home from there almost every time, and I’m shore many other locals have had similar experiences.



Maybe mums' using it to do her 20km's per week of shopping while Dad uses public transport or the Commodore or workvan to commute to work.
Why should they have to buy a 3rd vehicle? Or a 2WD F100 to tow the 4WD to where they are allowed to use it?

That is whole purpose of a 4WD, a true multipurpose vehicle, you can squeeze in heaps of mates, tow a caravan, camp from it, put a fullsized BBQ or kids bikes & dog in the back, or just pull tree stumps out of the backyard.

Many sedans back doors & rear seat never get used for more than a briefcase, why shouldn't they be restricted? Think of how traffic could be improved if we condensed 2 ft off the length of all these vehicles.

[RW EJ]

Exactly what I'm trying to say. It's pointless. I bet 90% of them are never taken off the road.

How much are you betting? Got the figures to back that statement up.
Even if the first owner doesn't use them, the 2nd, 3rd & 4th might, unlike your average throw away after the lease ends sedan.
We are glad 90% of one eyed people driving 2WD's can't get to the places where we do use them to see us using them, we enjoy our camping as is thanks.
I could just as well say 90% of cars with V8's never see a race track.

[RW EJ]

Thanks man, maybe somone should make some bumper stickers for those 4WD ppl, expressing that the car IS in fact used for what it was designed.

And incidentally its converted to LPG so theres no obnoxious enviromental issues with me.

but yeh, i strayed a bit off topic.

Maybe we could educate car drivers that we often swap back to road tyres and wash the mud off afterwards so you couldn't tell where the vehicle had been the previous weekend or whether it had a double horse float on the back.

[RW EJ]

This sort of thing always winds me up, so here goes.

If you ban vehicles because they are too big for normal day to day use, whats to stop the wowsers from saying, well lets ban cars that are too powerfull from the road, because the speed limit is only a 110 and as we all no from the adds speed kills so we'll put a speed limiter on the cars that are left.

If you agree with getting rid of 4wds because you don't like them the ball will start rolling and when the snowball reaches getting rid of v8s what are you going to do then??

Someone here said a short while ago, something about not complaining when somehting happened to a different group and by the time it happened to them there was no one left to complain to... If you think this is a good idea then your in for a world of hurt later on when they decide to ban something you love to own

Yep, when we have finished banning 4wd's, then power weight ratio restrictions & V8's can be next, then any modifications, even mag wheels, till we all drive 2 cyl diesel electric polystyrene bumper ecocars, because everything else is relatively dangerous & enviromentally damaging.
It won't happen overnight but it will happen.

[RW EJ]

over a certain size yes the small 4wds are not real off road 4wds and you are lower with better vision. try taking the small CRV's etc offroad where the big ones go..they don't make it in the real rough stuff.

Nah, but they do handle the light ok & medium stuff with a good driver.
Not everyone want's to play hard offroad.

[RW EJ]

Take Fritz or Helga who has thousands of hours in their Merc at 250km/h on the autobahn, put them in a high CofG, ill handling, heavy, right hand drive
shoebox on wheels and launch them on roads that are not 6 lane bitumen and you see the result every day.

Put them in a sedan on the same road and they're still dangerous to a degree, on a dirt outback track in 2WD, possibly more so.


In the same way, take a Ms Bubble, 24 years old, did her licence in a Barina last year and has not driven since, hubby buys a Patrol and she uses it as a MILF trolly to drop the sprog off ay school.

If she hasn't been driving for a year, a sedans not necessarily safe either.


Commercial: Patrol, Cruiser, Navara, Triton etc
Domestic: Subaru, CRV, Territory, Avalanche, RAV etc.

The difference between these is safety features including airbags, crumple zones etc.

Many commercial ones have had airbag options for the last 5 years and they are much more softer and pedestrian friendly than their 80's versions.

[RW EJ]

4Wds need to stay in the bush! Theres NO need for em to be in the city, not only are they dangerous in car crashes but they make little thinks like trying to look over a 4WD while sitting in a sedan that much more difficult, and this in a way can make another car crash happen.

Performance Cars need to stay on the track, there's NO need for them in the city!
How do you propose we get out camping vehicle from Brisbane to Cape York or Offroad 4x4 parks, towing our Patrol behind a daily driver 2WD F250 OK?

[RW EJ]

no one is taking away your right to drive a truck if thats what you want, the issue is whether you should have to undergo additional training to do so.

With rights come responsibilities.

I did my licence in a Valiant wagon, other than bigger tyres I don't see the difference, handles & brakes better than the Valiant IMO.
I've driven nothing but workvans & 4wd's since and don't feel confident while driving sedans anymore.

[RW EJ]

From what I remember about driver behaviour at schools is there seems to be a lot of erratic driving. People who floor the accellerator before looking and try to get from one point to another as quickly as possible (thats often only several meters).

Now this woman is blaming her 4WD for her actions, well maybe that makes her feel a little less guilty but I'd be interested to know the exact circumstances of the incident- was she being one of these erratic drivers? What was a 5 year old child doing in a high school parking lot and so on.

Next is the media, why am I reading that there is a proposal to ban ALL non staff cars from schools yet I hear on the radio that the proposal is to ban 4WD's from schools- well which is it?

Actually some people here must live in posh areas, most of the cars & idiots around schools here are in early Falcodores.

[RW EJ]

Maybe a reasonable compromise would be a law requiring SUV owners to fit some kind of rear view camera device like Lexus use. It might not help with visibility in front of the car where small children can still be caught in a blind spot, but it'd be better than nothing.

Sounds good, some Comp 4x4's are using them to monitor clearances under the car whilst rock hopping

[RW EJ]

good post - it is already evident from some of the replies in this thread that SOME owners dont even believe their 4WD handles/brakes differently WTF? (ever heard of a higher centre of gravity) Education is needed for some of these guys.

BANNING is not the solution (and is not fair in a free country where choice should count for something), I support education and I do support the proposal for the special license (as long as it is not too expensive to afford).

COG has never stopped my putting my lifted Rangie or Patrol sideways on a dirt track, maybe it's a driver skill thing.
Actually at a comp last year 2 Subaru's were the only vehicles that managed to end up on their sides out of 70odd 4x4's in the mud run.

[RW EJ]

I hate em.

Cant see through them so you can't predict whats happening a few cars up

Can't see around trucks & buses either ban them or just drop back further.


They think its safer for them, but its more dangerous for us

If I drive defensively and some clown wants to run into my armored vehicle it's his problem, I'm not going to be safer by driving a more powerful sedan aggressively.


They handle badly
They have massive body roll
They can't stop quick enough

Mine seems to stop fine, haven't hit anything other than some clown in a Hyundai that did a last minute lane change infront of me in the rain.


They are easier to roll

So are cars with bigger engines.


They can't see 3m in front of their bonnet

A car can't see the road 2m so what's your point?


They always bash their doors into ours

Nah, I leave door scraping on the roof of most cars actually.

[RW EJ]

It would be nice if 4WDs were taxed at the same rate as cars.

I didn't notice any tax difference when I brought my 15yo s/h 4WD.

[RW EJ]

It isnt so much that they should have different questions in the written test, but they should have to pass the onroad driving test in a 4WD in order to be able to drive one on the road. I beleive this is the same distinction made for manual/auto, same written test but if you want a manual license you do your onroad test in a manual car.

Yep the sooner we stop the people who think because they can drive a Falcodore down the freeway at 200kph, they can drive a 4WD at the speed limit in suburbia, the better.

[large]

RW EJ, it appears that you fit the role of " Mental Giant" and "correct Attitude" to drive a 4 x 4.
Why don't you Davo, Bazza, mickey and bluey get in ya 4 x 4 and fark off to the bush and don't come back!!!!!!!
Love Large.!!!!!!!!

[RW EJ]

RW EJ, it appears that you fit the role of " Mental Giant" and "correct Attitude" to drive a 4 x 4.
Why don't you Davo, Bazza, mickey and bluey get in ya 4 x 4 and fark off to the bush and don't come back!!!!!!!
Love Large.!!!!!!!!

And you can take your souped up low rider 4WD wannabe SUV Aventura and attitude, farwk off to the race track or 7-11 and don't come back. :bash: :lol:

[BLACK 346]

And you can take your souped up low rider 4WD wannabe SUV Aventura and attitude, farwk off to the race track or 7-11 and don't come back. :bash: :lol:

It's Adventra, with an A, just fyi :yup:

[Kerb]

I don't think that the statistics are selective as you suggest. You are however correct that a significant safety issue associated with 4WDs is the harm that they cause to occupants of other vehicles (and pedestrians in accidents, particularly when fitted with bull bars.) Bull bars open passenger cars up like can openers and pedestrians have no chance.

Whilst I appreciate that owners of 4WD vehicles in country areas want to protect their pride and joy from damage caused by collisions with wildlife, I can't accept that urban cowbows have the same need for them. I actually object more to the bullbars than the vehicles. If anything should be banned, ban the bullbars in metro areas, not the vehicles.

I think that reverse parking sensors or cameras are a good idea on 4WDs that also have a disproportionately high incidence of fatalities involving children when the vehicles are reversing. Beep..beep..beep doesn't mean anything to little kids.


... have to absolutly agree here ... I hate the stereotype 4x4'er ( Glorified Shopping trolley for the bored housewife ) ... but at the end of the day, everyone should have a free choice to drive what they want ...

... but the bullbars in urban areas is a big issue ...

:bash: Urban Cowboys !!!

[RW EJ]

It's Adventra, with an A, just fyi :yup:

And a D too and no U apparently, I think I had the Capital A right actually :lol:

[RW EJ]

... have to absolutly agree here ... I hate the stereotype 4x4'er ( Glorified Shopping trolley for the bored housewife ) ... but at the end of the day, everyone should have a free choice to drive what they want ...

... but the bullbars in urban areas is a big issue ...

:bash: Urban Cowboys !!!

Maybe in some cases, but am I an urban cowboy or deserve the tag because I don't remove my bullbar between bush trips? :confused:

[Kerb]

Maybe in some cases, but am I an urban cowboy or deserve the tag because I don't remove my bullbar between bush trips? :confused:


It would be nice to see a company like ( insert major manufacturer here ) put out a Bullbar product that is as easy to remove as a towbar tongue ... that way no body would have an excuse not too ...

;)

[RW EJ]

It would be nice to see a company like ( insert major manufacturer here ) put out a Bullbar product that is as easy to remove as a towbar tongue ... that way no body would have an excuse not too ...

;)

Trouble is many of us have lights, arial's, shower water fittings, or winches attached too, it's only 4 bolts to remove otherwise, but they're also bloody heavy for a decent steel one. Alloy or the plastic smart bars are no good for heavy offroad use, one decent snot on a tree or rock and they're jammed on the tyre, standard factory bumper is stronger and also probably more damaging than the alloy ones in accidents. Many of the black ones on late model vehicles people think are steel are just powdercoated alloy.

It also would be like turbo's or V8's being removed when cars are taken back on the road from the track.

[exwrx]

RW EJ I am really happy for you that you love your 4WD, I really am, and you appear to use your 4WD for its intended purpose, but just answer me this:

Why do you feel the need to join a forum to defend soccer mums in trucks who cant drive? :confused:

IMHO I would be putting as much distance between myself and these idiots as I could. Just a thought. ;)

[mgygto]

Why do you feel the need to join a forum to defend soccer mums in trucks who cant drive? :confused:

IMHO I would be putting as much distance between myself and these idiots as I could. Just a thought. ;)

yea and I'm sure the mums would like to be as far away from the beer drinking, foul mouthed, uneducated, westie V8 drivers as possible as well.... isn't that what all V8 drivers are ????

[V8Patrol]

It would be nice to see a company like ( insert major manufacturer here ) put out a Bullbar product that is as easy to remove as a towbar tongue ... that way no body would have an excuse not too ...

;)

There are actually companys making "Plastic" bullbars at the moment for both the "soft off road 4x4" and the more traditional 4x4. While these are a certain positave move in the right direction for a large percentage of metro bound 4x4's thye have absolutely no value to the "real 4x4er" ...... how the phuck does one attatch a 9000lb winch to a lump of plastic ? let alone run the cable/rope through a steel roller/ hause setup. Obviously it would last as long as a paddlepop in a furnace. :mad:



So you ban bullbars from metro areas and that automatically discriminates
the likes of me who may wish to travel through a metro area to get to a better offroad area than where I live, or would you perfer me to waste double the fuel by going around the city entirely?. While your on the BAN everything you dont like list how will you deal with the thousands of semis delivering goods between citys that have huge bullbars attatched to their trucks.... :rolleyes:

All in all its soley a case of EDUCATION / TRAINING and thats not being done in this country at all in any form by the so called governments that say they are serious about road safety and saving lives. :confused:

As an avid 4x4 driver with many years of experiance both onroad in high performance cars and offroad in heavily modified rigs its as obvious as hell that the drivers of today NEED better teachers other than the "mum n dad" and familly car senerio.

Kingy
http://www.patrol4x4.com/photos/albums/userpics/000_0333ClrWat1.jpg
As you can see I actually use my rig offroad..... its powered by a 350chev and the tyres are 35" in diameter and the top edge of the bullbar is at shoulder height ( I'm 5'8" by the way ). This rig has been built specifically for the area in which I drive offroad, while most of you would shyte your pants at the "body roll" this thing has at the first round about, I'm quite used to it having driven this rig for many years ..... I dont call it body roll either .... its FLEX and thats something all real offroaders want.

With this particular rig there is no way in hell I'd let any other "driver" take the wheel, they simply couldnt handle it even in a "soft" enviroment be that on the blacktop or with dirt under the tread, it takes time to adjust your driving habits for this rig and to become used to its unusual charistics. The same could be said for letting me behind the wheel of you souped up genIII V8 on 40 series tyres that has zero flex...... there'd be more sideways action than a crab could handle !

[exwrx]

yea and I'm sure the mums would like to be as far away from the beer drinking, foul mouthed, uneducated, westie V8 drivers as possible as well.... isn't that what all V8 drivers are ????

Sorry, I wasnt having a go at 4WD owners or adding to the stereotypes. Think of it like this - when a moron in a V8 is caught doing something stupid, I dont feel the need to defend them just because they drive the same type of car as me. IMO we should be pointing out that they are just morons and have nothing to do with genuine car enthusiasts like 'us'.

By the same token a 4WD enthusiast like RW EJ and V8Patrol are miles apart from those using 4WD's as urban assault vehicles. No one is trying to take away their right to drive their 4WD's. If they know their stuff, and it appears that they do, then any additional licensing requirements should be a piece of piss for them to pass.

[mgygto]

Sorry, I wasnt having a go at 4WD owners or adding to the stereotypes. Think of it like this - when a moron in a V8 is caught doing something stupid, I dont feel the need to defend them just because they drive the same type of car as me. IMO we should be pointing out that they are just morons and have nothing to do with genuine car enthusiasts like 'us'.

By the same token a 4WD enthusiast like RW EJ and V8Patrol are miles apart from those using 4WD's as urban assault vehicles. No one is trying to take away their right to drive their 4WD's. If they know their stuff, and it appears that they do, then any additional licensing requirements should be a piece of piss for them to pass.

Interestingly the vehicle with the worst rear vision to spot children behind when reversing is the Holden Commodore Station Wagon - that comes from the NRMA research last year. The cars that I see wrapped around poles with dead youngsters inside are high powered cars. The number of semi-trailers that cause fatal accidents is rather more than a 4WD. etc etc etc the point is it is illogical to brand a type of vehicle any less worthy to be on the road than another, it will always come back to the driver and how they handle that vehicle. The whole 4WD debate is about stereotyping and given the number of them on the road it is the minority that are "up in arms" but it makes good press and good headlines.

[VX2VESS]

Interestingly the vehicle with the worst rear vision to spot children behind when reversing is the Holden Commodore Station Wagon - that comes from the NRMA research last year. The cars that I see wrapped around poles with dead youngsters inside are high powered cars. The number of semi-trailers that cause fatal accidents is rather more than a 4WD. etc etc etc the point is it is illogical to brand a type of vehicle any less worthy to be on the road than another, it will always come back to the driver and how they handle that vehicle. The whole 4WD debate is about stereotyping and given the number of them on the road it is the minority that are "up in arms" but it makes good press and good headlines.

i agree except the bit about them being a minority. seems to be every 1 in 3 around my area is a 4wd.

[mgygto]

i agree except the bit about them being a minority. seems to be every 1 in 3 around my area is a 4wd.

Sorry, thats what I meant, the people complaining about 4WDs are in the minority but are making a lot of noise :)

[exwrx]

Interestingly the vehicle with the worst rear vision to spot children behind when reversing is the Holden Commodore Station Wagon - that comes from the NRMA research last year. The cars that I see wrapped around poles with dead youngsters inside are high powered cars. The number of semi-trailers that cause fatal accidents is rather more than a 4WD. etc etc etc the point is it is illogical to brand a type of vehicle any less worthy to be on the road than another, it will always come back to the driver and how they handle that vehicle. The whole 4WD debate is about stereotyping and given the number of them on the road it is the minority that are "up in arms" but it makes good press and good headlines.

(Hangs head in shame at wagon statistic)

I agree that it is the nut behind the wheel, so why not support a push for additional training?

You imply that 4WD's are not more dangerous in certain situations? Lets deal with some facts, as opposed to ego, prejudice, stereotypes, or self interest:

A recent study into "Driveway deaths: fatalities of young children in Australia as a result of low-speed motor vehicle impacts" by Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) found that:

Quote:
[of the 36 cases studied,] The vehicles tended to be large, the majority being large 4WD passenger vehicles, large utility vehicles, delivery vans or heavy trucks, although either a sedan or a station wagon was involved in one-fifth of the cases. The predominance of large vehicles in these accidents contrasts with the fact that sedans and station wagons account for about two out of every three pedestrian traffic deaths in Australia. This is unlikely to be attributable solely to the fact that a low-speed collision involving a heavy vehicle is more likely to result in a fatality than one involving a sedan. The accidents involving passenger vehicles predominantly entailed vehicles reversing in driveways.

More than half of the passenger vehicles were large 4WDs, but the reason for this over-representation remains unclear. The relatively high sitting position of the driver in large 4WDs tends to counteract any reduction in the driver’s field of view resulting from the high window sills in such vehicles, but that benefit is significantly compromised in some models by the fitment of a spare wheel high on the rear door.


http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/rpts/cr208/index.cfm

[mgygto]

(Hangs head in shame at wagon statistic)

I agree that it is the nut behind the wheel, so why not support a push for additional training?

You imply that 4WD's are not more dangerous in certain situations? Lets deal with some facts, as opposed to ego, prejudice, stereotypes, or self interest:



if you scroll back and look at my posts you will see that :

i do support extra training for 4WD's ... as well as high performance cars .. I have one of each so I am not biased either way ...

me everytime I see a tiny tiny barina or echo with a young girl inside I absolutely cringe because every other vehicle on the road is a danger to them and if anyone should be forced to take a defensive driving course it is drivers of these metal coffins....

[exwrx]

if you scroll back and look at my posts you will see that :

i do support extra training for 4WD's ... as well as high performance cars .. I have one of each so I am not biased either way ...

me everytime I see a tiny tiny barina or echo with a young girl inside I absolutely cringe because every other vehicle on the road is a danger to them and if anyone should be forced to take a defensive driving course it is drivers of these metal coffins....

Agree on all points ! :)

[paulvdb]

With this particular rig there is no way in hell I'd let any other "driver" take the wheel, they simply couldnt handle it even in a "soft" enviroment be that on the blacktop or with dirt under the tread, it takes time to adjust your driving habits for this rig and to become used to its unusual charistics. The same could be said for letting me behind the wheel of you souped up genIII V8 on 40 series tyres that has zero flex...... there'd be more sideways action than a crab could handle !

One problem I have is that there are a lot of guys running rigs like this in city areas and driving them HARD. I can see the way the vehicle moves. I can see that the COG is very high. I can see that the wheelbase is VERY short - and yet there are guys out there driving their modified antiques (very old patrols, old landies, troopies etc) like they're in a racecar.

I'm all for driver training and special licensing but can't see how any state Govt is going to get this in place when they can't even do car licensing right.

[O5BRKY]

Interestingly the vehicle with the worst rear vision to spot children behind when reversing is the Holden Commodore Station Wagon - that comes from the NRMA research last year. The cars that I see wrapped around poles with dead youngsters inside are high powered cars. The number of semi-trailers that cause fatal accidents is rather more than a 4WD. etc etc etc the point is it is illogical to brand a type of vehicle any less worthy to be on the road than another, it will always come back to the driver and how they handle that vehicle. The whole 4WD debate is about stereotyping and given the number of them on the road it is the minority that are "up in arms" but it makes good press and good headlines.

Funny research, as I have found that the Commodore/Adventra wagon vision is a hell of a lot better than the 4WD's I've owned...
Perhaps, they need to arrange endorsements on licences, and if you have owned a 4WD for a long time or similar and can prove it, you get the endorsement without needing testing, A bit like truck licences?

[RW EJ]

Sorry, I wasnt having a go at 4WD owners or adding to the stereotypes. Think of it like this - when a moron in a V8 is caught doing something stupid, I dont feel the need to defend them just because they drive the same type of car as me. IMO we should be pointing out that they are just morons and have nothing to do with genuine car enthusiasts like 'us'.

By the same token a 4WD enthusiast like RW EJ and V8Patrol are miles apart from those using 4WD's as urban assault vehicles. No one is trying to take away their right to drive their 4WD's. If they know their stuff, and it appears that they do, then any additional licensing requirements should be a piece of piss for them to pass.

Very true but there seem to be a lot of assumptions & generalisations made like "ban them all" etc, so no wonder some of us get passionate about defending our motorsport as many here would theirs.

[RW EJ]

i agree except the bit about them being a minority. seems to be every 1 in 3 around my area is a 4wd.

Yes another rampart generalisation, last count in the local shopping centre of 2 bays showed 1 in 12, maybe you should move to a less upmarket area. :D

[RW EJ]

(Hangs head in shame at wagon statistic)

I agree that it is the nut behind the wheel, so why not support a push for additional training?

You imply that 4WD's are not more dangerous in certain situations? Lets deal with some facts, as opposed to ego, prejudice, stereotypes, or self interest:

A recent study into "Driveway deaths: fatalities of young children in Australia as a result of low-speed motor vehicle impacts" by Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) found that:

Quote:
[of the 36 cases studied,] The vehicles tended to be large, the majority being large 4WD passenger vehicles, large utility vehicles, delivery vans or heavy trucks, although either a sedan or a station wagon was involved in one-fifth of the cases. The predominance of large vehicles in these accidents contrasts with the fact that sedans and station wagons account for about two out of every three pedestrian traffic deaths in Australia. This is unlikely to be attributable solely to the fact that a low-speed collision involving a heavy vehicle is more likely to result in a fatality than one involving a sedan. The accidents involving passenger vehicles predominantly entailed vehicles reversing in driveways.

More than half of the passenger vehicles were large 4WDs, but the reason for this over-representation remains unclear. The relatively high sitting position of the driver in large 4WDs tends to counteract any reduction in the driver’s field of view resulting from the high window sills in such vehicles, but that benefit is significantly compromised in some models by the fitment of a spare wheel high on the rear door.


http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/rpts/cr208/index.cfm

There's also the possibility that people with multiple kids are much more likely to own larger vehicles like vans & 4WD's.

[exwrx]

Very true but there seem to be a lot of assumptions & generalisations made like "ban them all" etc, so no wonder some of us get passionate about defending our motorsport as many here would theirs.

Go back and read the coroner's recommendations in this case - she did NOT advocate banning 4WD's except from entering school grounds and from stopping within 200 metres from schools. Oh, and this was only in relation to 4WD's weighing 2 tonnes or more. No one is banning anything per se.

[exwrx]

There's also the possibility that people with multiple kids are much more likely to own larger vehicles like vans & 4WD's.

Agreed, but all the more reason to raise licensing standards then. ;)

[longlux]

I own 2 4wd's & a Commodore I have a HR-X R-E licence i have driven passenger buses, trucks, cars & motor cycles, I am also a locomotive operater.

I have also done advanced driver training.

All vehicles have blind spots.

All vehicles require different skills.

I believe training is part of the answer but also a change in attitude as any vehicle in the wrong hands is a lethal wepon.

The question i have is where were the parents of the young child when walking between the vehicles i have seen young children doing the same thing at my daughters school it makes me cringe.

Moving vehicles 200mtrs away will only shift the problem.

To the 4wd haters remember there are people that hate High Powered Vehicles as well & these could be on the ban list after 4wd's.

I personaly don't hate High Powered Vehicles as i have owned V8's

[fekason]

I also find 4WD drivers have a higher tendancy to be nuisance drivers.

However, I would not agree to having them banned, due freedom of choice issues.

If deemed necessary, I have no problems with special licences. We already have different licences depending on the characteristics 0f the vehicle, and I see no reason why 4WD should be necessarily lumped with standard cars. I would not argue either if van licences became necessary for a wider range of commercials.

What does irk me is the special tax treatment afforded to 4WD vehicles. This beneficial tax treatment should not be available to city drivers, though defining a city driver could be legally challenging.

[mgygto]

What does irk me is the special tax treatment afforded to 4WD vehicles. This beneficial tax treatment should not be available to city drivers, though defining a city driver could be legally challenging.

The import tariff on a 4WD is 5% , on passenger vehicles it was reduced to 10% in January and will be reduced to 5% in 2010.

[fekason]

The import tariff on a 4WD is 5% , on passenger vehicles it was reduced to 10% in January and will be reduced to 5% in 2010.

That's still a beneficial tax treatment. Until this year it was 10% and is still 5% for another 5 years.

IMHO, there is no justification for this for city drivers, and would have had some influence on the market due pricing.

[seldo]

At risk of getting flamed, I also believe that many people who buy 4wds do so because it boosts their personal inadequacies. Many regard them as a means of feeling important and seemingly invulnerable, and it lets them be bullies on the road. The psychologists probably have a name for them..
Whilst it would cause a huge hue and cry if a special licence was required for 4wds, I can see that many 4wd drivers are completely oblivious of all else around them and don't realise that they cannot see out the back. And not being confident drivers many of them get in a tizz over just trying to park the behemoth. I see it every day - little mums perched up in a huge 4wd and they think they are just king, but sadly don't have the skills that responsibilty for one of these things requires.
Whilst I don't often admit it ...I was once a Volvo dealer :hide: ...
But the point of owning up to this shameful thing is that it used to fascinate me the number of buyers who would walk into the showroom and the first words out of their mouths would be " I've just written-off my car and I want a safe car.." And when you went for a test-drive with many of these people, I could quickly understand why they'd had the accident...as a group they were some of the worst drivers I have ever seen..! No wonder they'd had a big one! And, no wonder they have earned the reputation of "Another bloody Volvo driver !..." You've probably shouted it yourself from time to time... One woman was a doctor, about late 50s, wrote her car off almost outside the showroom. She failed to give way to her right at an intersection (admittedly the traffic lights were out), cleaned up the bloke on the right, kept the foot flat and swung around to the left and took the front off the bloke waiting patiently to enter from the left, bounced off him and mounted the foot-path, cleaned up a pedestrian who ran out of a shop to see what was happening, ricochetted off the the shop wall, still foot flat (with all that 90bhp clawing at the road...) cleaned up a cab arriving at the intersection from her left, kept going around in a big arc to her left, T-boned one of our customer's cars that the apprentice had illegally taken to buy the morning tea, and then finally hit a stone wall outside the church and the car finally called it quits... Wrote off 5 cars in one hit... But, the reason I relate the story (apart from being slightly amusing) is that she traded in the wreck the next day on an identical car (same colour, everything), had us swap the plates from the old car so no one would know, and..................2 months later did almost exactly the same thing... :shock: So, the point of the whole post is that, many of these people just shouldn't be driving at all. And the tragic part is that I suspect that many of these poorly skilled drivers have already had an accident/s in other cars and so they gravitate to something big and safe (for them) and end up in a big 4wd that they feel safe in. Let me say it again...many of the poorly skilled (shall I call them not comfortable/confident drivers) buy a great big 4wd because they feel it protects them in an accident. Heaven help the rest of us, because they represent a sector of the population who are most likely to have one.....And, before the knives come out, I am not tarring every 4wd driver with this brush....but let me tell you, there's plenty of them that the cap would fit...
And the other really scary thing is that I can't see a viable solution...

[paul05]

2.5 tonne trucks don't need any more than a car license why should fwd's.
women on the north shore in fwd's,who cares really,just bump the rego and green slips up more or there taxes for road damage.but it's all another load of crap and takes the attention of P platers and pitt bulls. :lol:

[longlux]

At risk of getting flamed, I also believe that many people who buy 4wds do so because it boosts their personal inadequacies. Many regard them as a means of feeling important and seemingly invulnerable, and it lets them be bullies on the road. The psychologists probably have a name for them..
Whilst it would cause a huge hue and cry if a special licence was required for 4wds, I can see that many 4wd drivers are completely oblivious of all else around them and don't realise that they cannot see out the back. And not being confident drivers many of them get in a tizz over just trying to park the behemoth. I see it every day - little mums perched up in a huge 4wd and they think they are just king, but sadly don't have the skills that responsibilty for one of these things requires.
Whilst I don't often admit it ...I was once a Volvo dealer :hide: ...
But the point of owning up to this shameful thing is that it used to fascinate me the number of buyers who would walk into the showroom and the first words out of their mouths would be " I've just written-off my car and I want a safe car.." And when you went for a test-drive with many of these people, I could quickly understand why they'd had the accident...as a group they were some of the worst drivers I have ever seen..! No wonder they'd had a big one! And, no wonder they have earned the reputation of "Another bloody Volvo driver !..." You've probably shouted it yourself from time to time... One woman was a doctor, about late 50s, wrote her car off almost outside the showroom. She failed to give way to her right at an intersection (admittedly the traffic lights were out), cleaned up the bloke on the right, kept the foot flat and swung around to the left and took the front off the bloke waiting patiently to enter from the left, bounced off him and mounted the foot-path, cleaned up a pedestrian who ran out of a shop to see what was happening, ricochetted off the the shop wall, still foot flat (with all that 90bhp clawing at the road...) cleaned up a cab arriving at the intersection from her left, kept going around in a big arc to her left, T-boned one of our customer's cars that the apprentice had illegally taken to buy the morning tea, and then finally hit a stone wall outside the church and the car finally called it quits... Wrote off 5 cars in one hit... But, the reason I relate the story (apart from being slightly amusing) is that she traded in the wreck the next day on an identical car (same colour, everything), had us swap the plates from the old car so no one would know, and..................2 months later did almost exactly the same thing... :shock: So, the point of the whole post is that, many of these people just shouldn't be driving at all. And the tragic part is that I suspect that many of these poorly skilled drivers have already had an accident/s in other cars and so they gravitate to something big and safe (for them) and end up in a big 4wd that they feel safe in. Let me say it again...many of the poorly skilled (shall I call them not comfortable/confident drivers) buy a great big 4wd because they feel it protects them in an accident. Heaven help the rest of us, because they represent a sector of the population who are most likely to have one.....And, before the knives come out, I am not tarring every 4wd driver with this brush....but let me tell you, there's plenty of them that the cap would fit...
And the other really scary thing is that I can't see a viable solution...


Most people i know that own 4wd's are highly skilled drivers that have taken the time to acquire those skills. Unfortunately there are a few as in any class of driver V8, Ricer driver, Motor Cycle rider or Truckie etc that don't have the skills required.

To say they gravitate to 4wd's because they have had an accident & think a 4wd is safer is wrong.

I purchased my 4wd because i go camping & fishing there are places that you cannot get to with a 2wd.(Maybe some of you should try it )

The one & only accident I was involved in was on karrinup rd when 3 yes 3 2wd's ran into the back of me. Why they did it is beyond me as there was no traffic movement at the time.

I was also the only driver that was concerned first with their well being & saftey & not trying to point the finger of blame.

& to top it of the only driver to give an accurate accident report.

I have also pulled 2wds out of the sand between the hwy's in the metro area.

I still don't think all 2wd'ers are a nusaince or stupid.

I also believe that many people who buy 4wds do so because it boosts their personal inadequacies.

A lot of people say the same of people with High Powered Vehicles but its nonsense this is the sort of rubbish kids pull at school because they are jealous i am assuming there a no school kids on this board.

The only people that have problems parking any vehicle are doing so because of a lack of the required skills. I have seen drivers having problems trying to park a Ford Lazer.


http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/download.php?id=19

This is my behemoth & i have no problems parking it

[mgygto]

At risk of getting flamed, I also believe that many people who buy 4wds do so because it boosts their personal inadequacies. Many regard them as a means of feeling important and seemingly invulnerable, and it lets them be bullies on the road. The psychologists probably have a name for them...

c'mon seldo , you're better than this comment.

many people say the same about V8 drivers which just shows what nonsense it is to look at a car and then stereotype the driver.

[mgygto]

That's still a beneficial tax treatment. Until this year it was 10% and is still 5% for another 5 years.

IMHO, there is no justification for this for city drivers, and would have had some influence on the market due pricing.

it would make zero difference in the choice between a 4WD and a sedan. It is a tariff on the imported vehicle at landed cost. Reality tells you that the difference at sticker price would be around $1000 - $2000 max.

[RW EJ]

Go back and read the coroner's recommendations in this case - she did NOT advocate banning 4WD's except from entering school grounds and from stopping within 200 metres from schools. Oh, and this was only in relation to 4WD's weighing 2 tonnes or more. No one is banning anything per se.

People posting here have though.

[RW EJ]

Agreed, but all the more reason to raise licensing standards then. ;)

Yes, but people with kids bouncing around in the back aren't going to drive better by doing extra questions on a licence test, all the training in the world may not help you concdentrate when kids are involved. Most of these people also see a vehicle as 100% transport functionality, not whether it's fashionable or throws through mountain corners well.

[RW EJ]

That's still a beneficial tax treatment. Until this year it was 10% and is still 5% for another 5 years.

IMHO, there is no justification for this for city drivers, and would have had some influence on the market due pricing.

On my 3rd 4WD and yet to receive one of these huge tax rebate thingies, accountant can't help me either.

[RW EJ]

At risk of getting flamed, I also believe that many people who buy 4wds do so because it boosts their personal inadequacies. Many regard them as a means of feeling important and seemingly invulnerable, and it lets them be bullies on the road. The psychologists probably have a name for them..


I believe many buy them because they fit heaps of stuff/people in, tow well and are better to camp, mud race & rockhop with than a Camry.
Lets not bring this down to the old "big car, little penis" crap even if there are stats to back it up then I don't need to know results someone from checkng out other blokes tackle size thank you.

[seldo]

I believe many buy them because they fit heaps of stuff/people in, tow well and are better to camp, mud race & rockhop with than a Camry.
Who can argue with that? Of course that's true. But I wasn't talking about them, was I ?

Lets not bring this down to the old "big car, little penis" crap even if there are stats to back it up then I don't need to know results someone from checkng out other blokes tackle size thank you.
From your reaction I could almost guess that you might have a 4wd.....Now, if you'd just step behind this curtain and drop yer dacks... ;)
Having spent 30 years in the car business, I became well versed in assessing what type of car that the various types of people would choose. You would be amazed how accurate it can be... And, mgygto, don't get me wrong ...V8 drivers too..., this same type-casting probably applies to a lot of the members of this forum, including me.
I'm not picking on those who own 4wds as a whole - plenty of people use them for what they are good for, like carrying heaps of stuff (can't do that in just a station waggon...) getting off the beaten track - now you are talking. But there are plenty of people who own them for all the wrong reasons. They have had a scare by way of an accident or some such in a conventional car probably caused by their poor driving. So, they opt for something big and strong "so we'll be safe in an accident". They probably shouldn't really be driving anything. You all know some of them. Just think of some of the people that you know and you will find that there are a few who are really nervous, lacking in confidence, and for whom driving is not a happy experience, it's a chore and a real challenge. Some of those people are not good drivers and never will be. You've been in the car with them...you are driving along and they are sitting up, seat forward, nose an inch from the windscreen, hanging onto the wheel as if the tighter they hold it the safer they'll be. And suddenly they slow down...why...? Because a car appeared at the intersection 200m down the road, or a truck passed them and made a lot of noise, or they start thinking that they've got to get into the outside lane because they have to make a right-hand turn 3km ahead. These people have a piece of paper that permits them to drive, but they will never ever be drivers. And those are the people I'm talking about. My wife is one....
So, if my theory offends you, maybe you should have a look in the mirror to see how well the cap fits you.. If it doesn't, I wasn't talking about you....
Oh, BTW, the winter coming on is a real bummer isn't it - peeing out of the side of your thumb....:eyes:

[RW EJ]

But there are plenty of people who own them for all the wrong reasons. They have had a scare by way of an accident or some such in a conventional car probably caused by their poor driving. So, they opt for something big and strong "so we'll be safe in an accident". They probably shouldn't really be driving anything. You all know some of them. Just think of some of the people that you know and you will find that there are a few who are really nervous, lacking in confidence, and for whom driving is not a happy experience, it's a chore and a real challenge. Some of those people are not good drivers and never will be. You've been in the car with them...you are driving along and they are sitting up, seat forward, nose an inch from the windscreen, hanging onto the wheel as if the tighter they hold it the safer they'll be. And suddenly they slow down...why...? Because a car appeared at the intersection 200m down the road, or a truck passed them and made a lot of noise, or they start thinking that they've got to get into the outside lane because they have to make a right-hand turn 3km ahead. These people have a piece of paper that permits them to drive, but they will never ever be drivers. And those are the people I'm talking about. My wife is one....


Yes and many people have older parents in similar states, my old man used to have no problems steering a Valiant wagon, but is now a bit vague behind the wheel of my Patrol. Mum used to drive my 68 Landrover pretty well, 10 years later no chance. My Ex was learning to drive in it, no chance, no concept of engine braking or pulling up 2 tonne of vehicle in time, scared the crap out of me, she was off to an auto laser in no time, no confidence or interest in driving a 4WD.

[4wder]

After reading this thread I am totally appalled at how people can be so discriminative, I am female and drive a 4wd, yes I drive my kids to school in it and do my shopping with it.
I also 4wd on a regular basis and am able to take my kids to remote places so that they can see the whole of Australia, something many kids will miss out on.
I am unable to afford the cost of 2 registrations and therefore will probably never own a car again. I don't see why I should be tagged as an unsafe driver for doing something that I enjoy (4wding) after all Australia is supposed to be a free country is it not.
I do support extra training or a special licence for 4wders, there are a few drivers out there who need it and make us other drivers look bad, I feel I would have no problems in passing such a test.
So to all those discriminative people out there pull your head in, I don't bag out your fast cars etc, so think before you speak.
My 2c worth

[RamRod]

It's not the 4wd's that are the danger. Have youy heard the saying "guns don't ill people, people kill people". Same thing goes here. What I'd like to see is manditory re-testing for all drivers every 5 years.

I live in a regional Queensland city (60-70k people) and 1 in 3 cars are 4wd's. There are just as many usless car drivers as 4wd drivers. What I can't get past is the fact the there are so many pathetic drivers in such a small city (must be the aging population). I have so many close calls on a weekly basis it not funny. I see people constantly that don't even know the simplest road rules. I'd prefer to drive in Brisbane traffic any day compared to here.

[V8R]

wow, a n00b to the forums having a whinge.. read what ppl have written next time.. BECAUSE you do these other things (ie: use the thing for what it was designed for) takes you out of the soccar mum cat., and you also have stated that you support extra licencing for 4x4 owners / drivers.. your one of use, get over it :)

one other question, what made you come here in the first place, obviously not being a "fast car enthusiest" (I don't bag out your fast cars etc,)?

JM

[RW EJ]

wow, a n00b to the forums having a whinge.. read what ppl have written next time.. BECAUSE you do these other things (ie: use the thing for what it was designed for) takes you out of the soccar mum cat., and you also have stated that you support extra licencing for 4x4 owners / drivers.. your one of use, get over it :)

one other question, what made you come here in the first place, obviously not being a "fast car enthusiest" (I don't bag out your fast cars etc,)?
JM

Maybe when people start shouting "ban them all", "99% of them never will go offroad", "every second vehicle is now a 4WD", "they're designed to kill children", "I crash into the back of them because they block my view", "softroaders never go offroad" I get slightly peeved at their attempts to snuff out my favorite motor sport.

I am however reasonably impressed though on the large number of posters here that aren't that biased to blame a piece of steel for the actions of the driver.

[seldo]

After reading this thread I am totally appalled at how people can be so discriminative, I am female and drive a 4wd, yes I drive my kids to school in it and do my shopping with it.
I also 4wd on a regular basis and am able to take my kids to remote places so that they can see the whole of Australia, something many kids will miss out on.
I am unable to afford the cost of 2 registrations and therefore will probably never own a car again. I don't see why I should be tagged as an unsafe driver for doing something that I enjoy (4wding) after all Australia is supposed to be a free country is it not.
I do support extra training or a special licence for 4wders, there are a few drivers out there who need it and make us other drivers look bad, I feel I would have no problems in passing such a test.
So to all those discriminative people out there pull your head in, I don't bag out your fast cars etc, so think before you speak.
My 2c worth
I have no problem with you 4wder. You may be one of those who can actually drive, and are probably quite capable, maybe even good :shock: Please don't suggest that I am attempting to tar all 4wd drivers with the same brush...but if you take the bait, maybe that also says something...
But, I have never even initimated that I was making a broad statement that everyone who drives a 4wd is a problem. Not so. I am concerned about those who are incompetent drivers who hide their incompetence by getting into something big and strong and "crash-safe" (by virtue of its sheer mass).....and just hope that when they have their next accident, because they have might and strength, they will be safe........stuff the other side of the equation who are driving a KIA or similar... I was talking to a young, brash, outspoken bloke I know tonight about this very subject and he said that he agreed that big 4wds require far more skill and expertise than most people realise. :shock: He said, (and this was interesting to me...) that if an "advanced license" was required to drive a 4wd (as is required for any other large specialised vehicle) that he would be pleased to sit the test, because it would prove that he was competent..(or a star of honour if you like..) And again (interestingly), he said he often puts his g/f (who he acknowledges is an awful driver), (and her dad who is a mate of mine, agrees) into his 4wd and he drives her little Jap-box, just so she will be ok if/when she has the prang that he knows is just around the corner... I guess it's human nature....we all don't care about the other bloke, as long as we can hide/mask our own deficiencies. If they die as a consequence :shrug: ..unfortunate...

[Gee]

interesting data / perspective... will there be calls now for special licencing for Commodore drivers? :D The CLK should get a concession in that a lot of the time it's going to have 100% visibility

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Blind-spot-research-reveals-worst-offenders/2005/05/26/1116950793142.html

The Holden Commodore VX sedan is one of six cars with the worst visibility while reversing, says NRMA research released today.

While four-wheel-drive models are among the worst, they are not the only category of car with poor visibility while reversing, says the report, which uses a five-star system to rate "reversing visibility".

"Many [four-wheel-drive vehicles] perform better than popular sedans," says the report.

The index measures how well a driver can see out of the back of a car to provide a better chance of preventing pedestrian injuries and fatalities.

The report features 221 vehicles including four-wheel-drives, people movers, utilities and sport, luxury, large, medium, medium-small and small sedans.

The only vehicle to score the maximum five stars was the Lexus GS430 sedan, "which featured both front and back sensors and a camera that allows the driver to monitor behind the bumper bar", the NRMA report said.

The Lexus GS430 was the "only vehicle tested that doesn't have an obvious reversing blind area for the average driver".

Earlier this month, a coroner recommended banning four-wheel-drives from stopping within 200 metres of school with primary and infant pupils.

The recommendations - which were rejected by the NSW Government - followed the death of a five-year-old girl run over by a four-wheel-drive vehicle.

Bethany Holder was killed inside the grounds of Pittwater House School in Collaroy in July 2002, when a mother parking her Nissan Patrol ran over her, saying she "didn't see her".

The Government's Roads Minister, Michael Costa, instead proposed "proximity alarms" inside four-wheel-drive vehicles.

The worst performing cars - those rating zero out of five stars - were:

FOUR-WHEEL-DRIVES:

- Toyota Prado (five-door wagon).

- Land Rover Discovery (five-door wagon).

LARGE CARS:

- Holden Commodore (sedan).

PEOPLE MOVERS:

- Honda Odyssey series 20 (five-door wagon).

LUXURY CARS:

- Mercedes CLK500 (two-door convertible).

UTES AND VANS

- Holden Crewman (four-door ute).

[paulvdb]

interesting data / perspective... will there be calls now for special licencing for Commodore drivers? :D The CLK should get a concession in that a lot of the time it's going to have 100% visibility

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Blind-spot-research-reveals-worst-offenders/2005/05/26/1116950793142.html

The Holden Commodore VX sedan is one of six cars with the worst visibility while reversing, says NRMA research released today.

While four-wheel-drive models are among the worst, they are not the only category of car with poor visibility while reversing, says the report, which uses a five-star system to rate "reversing visibility".

"Many [four-wheel-drive vehicles] perform better than popular sedans," says the report.

The index measures how well a driver can see out of the back of a car to provide a better chance of preventing pedestrian injuries and fatalities.


Isn't it amazing the difference a few facts can make to a stupid thread :booty: :booty: :booty:

[O5BRKY]

As i've said before, my commodore/adventra wagon has better rear vision than the 4wd's I've owned,NRMA/RACV can do all their research they want,it doesn't necessary mean everyone agrees or need to agree with it.

[fekason]

Isn't it amazing the difference a few facts can make to a stupid thread :booty: :booty: :booty:

I also noted with interest the release on rear visibility yesterday.

As a former academic, I also know that pure research has to be balanced with practical data. You can come up with research to "prove" just about anything you want to, provided you don't have to expose it to real world evaluation. The interpretation of research can also be mis-represented or even abused.

Of most significance to me is that 4WD vehicles are grossly over-represented in accidents where vehicles run over children.

Thus it would appear to me to be a naive line to say that rear visibility is the only issue that causes the problem, that some other vehicles have similar rear vision deficiencies and therefore there is no problem specific to 4WD.

The accident data says otherwise. The coroner says otherwise.

The thread relates in part to special licencing for 4WD. There are many classes of licence, and on balance I think it might be a positive step to review 4WD licencing, particularly whether a standard car licence is appropriate for some or all 4WD.

Surely the safety of our children warrants that this issue be dealt with practically, and not ignored. Most road safety initiatives have initially met with some resistance at the start. However, the common good should prevail.

Let practical road safety be the outcome.

[chevypower]

my families Volvo C70 convertible has worse blind spots than any 4 wheel drive i have ever driven. Soon we will need a Volvo license hahaha. The Celica isn't that great either, so i think coupes are the worst

[paulvdb]

As a former academic, I also know that pure research has to be balanced with practical data. You can come up with research to "prove" just about anything you want to, provided you don't have to expose it to real world evaluation. The interpretation of research can also be mis-represented or even abused.


No probs - I've dealt with enough academic research to note that. I think however that NRMA's research (flawed as it is) is heaps more valid than a statement from a judge or from a politician.

Re cause and effect - I think that the problem is that there's a very high correlation between poor drivers and those who buy land cruisers for suburban work. So rather than saying 4WDs cause reversing accidents you'd say poor drivers buy very large 4WDs to feel safe in, and subsequently cause the majority of reversing accidents.

I saw somewhere an analysis method called something like 6 "why's" where you would say (supposedly a minumum of 6 times)...

1) Why did the driver run over the kid? Because she couldn't see the kid
2) Why couldn't she see the kid? Because in the vehicle she was driving she coudn't see over the bonnet.
3) Could she have adjusted her seating to improve that? No she was probably too short for the vehicle or the bonnet is too high.
4) etc

That would then lead you down a few paths that would either highlight that the car's design is simply not safe, that the driver is too short to safely drive that vehicle, that the vehicle used is too dangerous to be near kids (therefore remove from playgrounds), that the parking area at the school has poor visibility, or that she didn't use enough caution.

I would never come up with a simplistic response of "all 4WD's are unsafe because people have accidents in them". That's like the BS "because p-platers have accidents in Silvias and Skylines then we should remove those cars from the roads"

[O5BRKY]

I just love this thread it's so :bash: :box: :spew: :sleep:

[my_Berlina]

Isn't it amazing the difference a few facts can make to a stupid thread :booty: :booty: :booty:

A systems of stars without understanding how the rating is defined is a LONG way from 'facts'.

To me the biggest flaw in that study is that they were measuring a blind spot based on a 2yo child. Basically
irevelant to a infants/primary school.
Another possible issue, but this wasn't really explained, they seemed to be more concerned about
length of distance behind the car, where as I would expect the width was a bigger issue.

Dave !