What would it take to get a Commodore to 300+ Km/h?

[holdennutta]

After seeing this page:http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/falcon/hot_tuner_307kph/three-ton-thriller_1.htm
(Which is probably old, and you've probably all seen it...)

I was wondering what can Holden LS1 tuners hit back with? How easily would you get a Holden/HSV upto and/or beyond 300?

If you read the article at that speed the falcon was all over the runway and jumped sideways dramaticaly once the driver hit the stops at 307Km/h...Makes me think maybe falcons arent naturally meant for that speed lol. Would explain the limiting to 230 Km/h.

[XA coupe]

I would think a LS1 with a turbo package would pretty well guarantee 300+ Given that they reckon a SV8 ( I think ) did 260 kmh .. I wouldn't think that the extra 40Kmh would only be a matter of cubic dollars.
I wouldn't think any domestic car is tested at 300 +

[Kirium]

A death wish....


I honestly don't know why you'd want to make a car that's based on a basic bottom-dollar taxi pack chassis and make it do speeds like that.. And I've lived in the N.T for 2 years...

While testing the APS XR6 that broke 300, they did it on a runway and mentioned that the car would jump multiple lanes across without notice.. having that happen, even on a racetrack, would see you off with at least one set of wheels on the grass, and see you going home in a bodybag.
Neville's STARR supercharged 550kw GTS probably came the closest, but still wouldn't crack 300.

If you think a Holden is anymore capable of being stable at high speed than a falcon, you're kidding yourself...
You're better off buying a Murcielago like Neville did... At least you know the car's been designed to do it. unlike a commodore..

[HRT 8]

What would be needed to get a commodore to reach 300km/h???

A Hercules and an altitude of around 30,000 feet.
Should see 300km/h b4 it hits the ground.

[holdennutta]

A death wish....


I honestly don't know why you'd want to make a car that's based on a basic bottom-dollar taxi pack chassis and make it do speeds like that.. And I've lived in the N.T for 2 years...

While testing the APS XR6 that broke 300, they did it on a runway and mentioned that the car would jump multiple lanes across without notice.. having that happen, even on a racetrack, would see you off with at least one set of wheels on the grass, and see you going home in a bodybag.
Neville's STARR supercharged 550kw GTS probably came the closest, but still wouldn't crack 300.

If you think a Holden is anymore capable of being stable at high speed than a falcon, you're kidding yourself... You're better off buying a Murcielago like Neville did...

I don't t
nessasarily think a Holden would be more stable...Just wondering what it would take to acvhieve the same thign...

How does the falcon do it then with only 350ish at the treads when a GTS with 550 cannot? Whats the deal with that?

[Kirium]

LOL... yeah, what the big fella said..

I'd love to see that..

[holdennutta]

LOL... yeah, what the big fella said..

I'd love to see that..

:P I'd love to see that too, except not with a Holden lol. Maybe an old 120Y or somthing. But why waste a good car?

Mayby they could do it with my folk's VN...then they will have an excuse to buy a new car lol

[Nobby]

What would be needed to get a commodore to reach 300km/h???

A Hercules and an altitude of around 30,000 feet.
Should see 300km/h b4 it hits the ground.

That or a formula 1 car with a bullbar! :)

[bpm]

didnt a stock ss with a cage get 240-50 down conrod at last years bathhurst? i know its downhill but its a stocker.

[vzsv6]

I don't nessasarily think a Holden would be more stable...

I recall reading a number of acticles where highway patrol police have stated they prefer the Holdens due to their 'superior' high speed stability.


How does the falcon do it then with only 350ish at the treads when a GTS with 550 cannot? Whats the deal with that?

Gearing???

[Brendan]

Wasn't 300kph done ages ago by one of the Middle East guys with a Lumina? This is way back, maybe even US forums days?

I remember the discussion on the journey there and suspension mods etc and I'm pretty sure it was achieved, memory isn't what it used to be at ny age.

[bpm]

i remember reading that in zoom years ago. was an intercooled capa setup. and he held it on over 300 for several minutes.

[Kirium]

Gearing???

6th in the T56 is geared for something stupid like 400kph... You just need an engine with enough grunt to keep it accelerating. But even with more than should be enough, the real problem is aerodynamics. A brick will only fall so fast.

The commodore is essentially a brick.

As for the cops saying it's more stable, it probably is... below 230kph... Above that, it's probably just as much of a handful as a Fraud..

Andy Wallace commented during the McLaren F1's world record run at Volkswagens Ehra-Leissen test track
I found that up to about 340km/h the car was extremely stable - above that it began to wander a little - then its stability returned around 380-385 and it ran arrow straight, no problem.
Aero is funny thing. just because the commodore is more stable at 230kph, it could very well be worse than the XR6 at 300kph...

Frankly, i don't want to find out.

[vzsv6]

6th in the T56 is geared for something stupid like 400kph... You just need an engine with enough grunt to keep it accelerating. But even with more than should be enough, the real problem is aerodynamics. A brick will only fall so fast.

Was it a manual? Whats to say it wasn't an auto?
EDIT: OK, I just remembered GTS's don't come in auto :doh:

Don't forget the diff gears???


The commodore is essentially a brick.

What and the falcon isn't a brick?? Their basic shapes are very similar, so I don't see why the falcon would have any ao called advantage in aerodynamics...

[RIDE:42]

Didn`t the C A P A crewman do 300+ last year at bathurst :)

[Cobalt]

A v8 Supercar would easily do 300 save for the limit of the diff ratio they have to use per the regulations. 650-700Hp at the flywheel and would be stable as... Yes it has aero to help stability but that is mostly for downforce. And that is down conrod straight wich given is downhill but aint 3k nor is it the car even lookin unstable when they hit the chase at well over 200...

Your BRICK Therory just doesn't stand up. HP Will push through that barrier it is just how much mp is required to push it.. Gravity only has limited potential.. Turn up the gravit and the HP increase makes that brick fall faster.

BTW vmax falling is about 120mph so it wouldn't hit the ground at 300.....

[Kirium]

A v8 Supercar would easily do 300 save for the limit of the diff ratio they have to use per the regulations. 650-700Hp at the flywheel and would be stable as... Yes it has aero to help stability but that is mostly for downforce. And that is down conrod straight wich given is downhill but aint 3k nor is it the car even lookin unstable when they hit the chase at well over 200...
Surely you're not trying to compare a V8 supercar and the average SS or even GTS. The only similarity they share is the shape and badge. Why even bother bringing a supercar into the conversation?? Chassis, suspension, engine, gearbox, drivetrain, aero package (including underbody. does the holden have a flat underbody?? we know the fords don't.. :lol: )... It's all totally different.


Your BRICK Therory just doesn't stand up. HP Will push through that barrier it is just how much mp is required to push it.. Gravity only has limited potential.. Turn up the gravit and the HP increase makes that brick fall faster.

BTW vmax falling is about 120mph so it wouldn't hit the ground at 300.....

:confused: What's the vmax of a brick got to do with anything? it was an analogy to compare the commodore to a brick. perhaps in aero terms, it's not the most efficient shape, just like a brick probably doesn't have the highest Cd.

I'm sure with enough grunt (like I said) that it would do it. i didn't say it wouldn't. but Neville's 550kW GTS wouldn't do it.

My main concern isn't with the engine, it's that car as a whole.. it's simply not supposed to do it. the chassis, drivetrain, styling, suspension. it's designed for a family car, not a performance car. I wouldn't want to try it, that's all...

If you felt the desire, go for it, can't wait to see the video... (Just make sure your will is up to date.. :D )

[DJC-346]

as a self confessed speed addict, i must say 300kmh is magic.

never been more then 260 in a cage, but have broken 300 on a bike. it really is a magic feeling.

that said, every ****up becomes deadly at that speed.

i think 260 is enuff in a cage, have been there a few times and although it felt stable, brakes and suspension become a big issue. unless you have a decent setup dont even bother. last time i put my foot down hard at speed on a standard setup i really got abit worried.

[Cobalt]

The comments about aero being the limitation ...I commented about the fact that the same shape could get to 300 easily. V8 supercars have not underbody except the front bar.... Brad Jones' car has bee on its roof enuf time for you to realise this.

[Gareth@Willall]

Bet ya Wile E Coyote could do it with some acme rockets :D

Would be just as safe :rolleyes:

And yes there was an Article in ZOOM about a Capa powered car in the middle east running over 300KM/HR......

[Brendan]

And yes there was an Article in ZOOM about a Capa powered car in the middle east running over 300KM/HR......

That was soemwhat after the fact, The guy doing was a member of the US ls1.com forums or the old ezyboard forum, or maybe early days of this one. Kept us updated with his exploits. We all thought he was nuts.

I can't really remember, some of the other originals' memories might be better.

[NinetySix]

a 550kw GTS should have no trouble cracking 300 with the right diff ratio, else it just dosnt have 550kw :confused:


surely a SV8 with wild head work & a savage cam should be able to get up around the 300 mark???


after all a phase3 xr6t and a SV8 with the above mods are both easily capable of easy 11 second passes..

[FPV GTHO]

A v8 Supercar would easily do 300 save for the limit of the diff ratio they have to use per the regulations.

You may have heard already AVESCO have now allowed a different diff for Bathurst and Pukekohe, so whilst last year after the regs on the engine bottom end they dropped almost 10km/h down to 290km/h, this year theyre predicted to jump back over 300km/h. The cars are essentially the same body as an average Commodore and Falcon, and the only difference on the aero side is about 200kg of downforce from the front and rear spoilers, which is aided by a ride height that would be street legal. Given that, i think it would just take the right gearing and adequate power/torque to push a Commodore to 300km/h. That XR6T's only gearing mod was a change to the XR8's 3.23 rear diff from the original 3.45 afterall.

[Oztrack Tuning]

I have a car software program that calculates speeds based on heaps of factors. It simulates heaps of vehicles, it has mine predicted to do in the 280-290 range. That is with around 340fwkw. I will see what it says the minimum hp required for 300kph at the same drag coefficient is.
Ther have been some HSVs do in the low 280s i thought.

I am sure any of these new GenT turbos would do 300kph easy.

[Oztrack Tuning]

The program says 362fwkw in autos with 3.73 at a weight of 1650kg.
The same cars do about 11.80/116mph with sticky tyres these are done in auto form with stalls and sticky tyres.

Pretty much converts to 270rwkw.

This is 485hp.
The 300kph top speed takes 8km
296 is after 4km.
290 is 3km
275 is 2km
237 after 1000m and in 21.8s

0-160 is 8.9s with 1.66 60 footer

To get to 300kph within 2000m which would be a typical magazine test distance would require 480fwkw and a car with trap speed of 127mph and 11.0s - it would also have a top speed of 322kph (200mph), this is 640hp.

This is about 360rwkw.

[vh-holden]

what about that gold coloured commodore that does the salt lake racing? not your average commodore though!!

[holdennutta]

The program says 362fwkw in autos with 3.73 at a weight of 1650kg.
The same cars do about 11.80/116mph with sticky tyres these are done in auto form with stalls and sticky tyres.

Pretty much converts to 270rwkw.

This is 485hp.
The 300kph top speed takes 8km
296 is after 4km.
290 is 3km
275 is 2km
237 after 1000m and in 21.8s

0-160 is 8.9s with 1.66 60 footer

To get to 300kph within 2000m which would be a typical magazine test distance would require 480fwkw and a car with trap speed of 127mph and 11.0s - it would also have a top speed of 322kph (200mph), this is 640hp.

This is about 360rwkw.

That program sounds awesome...do you know where I can get it?

So it seems it is fairly easy to attain by throwing some decent $$ into it...reckin it could be done within the APS PhaseIII kit price though?

[Oztrack Tuning]

Its a bit of fun - i dont really know how to drive it all.

Its called CarTest 2000 - www.cartestsoftware.com

I just modified the GTO paramaters so i got a Commodore.

[Jag530G]

The Aerodynamics of the VY/VZ Commodore arent that bad, Aerodynamic drag is Cd (Co-efficient of Drag) multiplied by A (the frontal area of the car)

A VY Commodore is about 0.33, a Ford Falcon would be little different. Frontal area is the problem, these are wide cars. To help, get rid of the exterior mirrors and lower the car as it forces more air to go over the top and not underneath.

A well designed body kit can also help, the VL Commodore had a Cd of 0.45, but the Walkinshaw version had a Cd of 0.32, incredible for a car that did not feature flush window glass (later introduced on the VN and onwards). As much as some people criticise the look of the Walky, it and the VN Group A and the Astra SV1800 were the only HSV body kits to undergo aerodynamic testing, conducted at the MIRA (spelling?) facilty in the UK by TWR. Peter Stevens, who later went on to design the styling and aerodynamics of the McLaren F1, had a hand in the aerodynamics work on the VL Walky. Unfortunantly, every other HSV body kit has been a styling exercise, including the VS GTSR. (The Supercar wing looked like the real thing but wasn't, it didn't produce anything like the downforce, mainly because the car didn't have the front splitter of the race car and would have been hopelessly aerodynamically unbalanced)

The Monaro would be a better bet for this sort of thing, a lower roof line means less frontal area and the small lip on the boot lid helps separate airflow at the back for a lower Cd. For those of you who remember the ECommodore hybrid car of a few years ago, it actually used a Monaro Body shell, (Check the C pillar and roof line) converted to 4 doors. I remember articles indicating the boot lid design helped improve the Cd to 0.28. This is an extremely good figure.

A good idea for the body kit would be the HRT 427 kit, a small lip spoiler and a front splitter would have been great at 300kph, and this car would have done it too.

[mmciau]

Air speed over the top of the car has to be carefully balanced with what goes underneath or is subject to wings.

Car CAN get light if the air speed over the top is not carefully managed and the car can lift off.

Mike

[Gto_255]

I think the CSV Mondo got around 285km and that has 370kw at the fly. A supercharged or Turbo LS1 with the right setup should crack 300.

[Oztrack Tuning]

I have that magazine somewhere but if i recall correct that Mondos 1/4 mile times and trap speed wasnt that outstanding. It didnt seem to perform like a 370kw would relative to some of the cars on this forum. It should with 370kw have gotten a trap speed of up in the 115-118mph area. What was its trap speed.

I am not sure how far they have before they have to brake at Avalon Airport. But its probably not far enough to get a true top speed reading.

[Phido]

Aussie cars just aren't engineered for these speeds out of the factory. Unlike germans, that actually spend realy development dollars to get 250 Kmph cruise in a strong cross wind pretty much right and do it quietly. Something very few japanese cars have ever done (only really a NSX, GT-Rs/supras/WRX's/EVO's up in the higher limits of speeds turn into falcons and commodores).

But even they limit most of the cars to 250 Kmph odd. They de-restrict only certain cars, only after a certain period, for certain owners. Most cars will actually handle 230-250 reasonably well.. But climb over 250 and your into the unknown out of spec zone. To be honest, thats a speed rarely used, either on a track or on the road by most cars/drivers.

Definately start with a monaro. They can do 270kmph out of the box. You will want a fair wack of downforce so it keeps it on the road.. You will want a front splitter, flat body undertray, a rear diffuser, a proper spoiler. Maybe remove the mirrors and replace with LCD screens inside the car with cameras. Then about 450Kw.. The right gearing, a really good check over the hubs and bearings, brakes (upgraded for sure). New springs and shocks. Find the right tyres for the job as well.

The UAE commodore was a auto, supercharged, VX I think.. Was apparently extremely scarey, and there was a issue with 30 seconds at WOT where it would drain the surge tank and was unable to be filled faster from the regular tank. Problems people usually don't have..

Or buy a de-restricted Sl65 or a lambo, a 911 turbo or something.

Engineering for speed isn't cheap or easy.

[vh-holden]

is there anyway of doing speed testing on rollers like on a dyno?

[SICK SS]

Any one heard of the Callaway ( yes the wonderfull turners in the states who done our c4b motor ) "SledgeHammer" corvette wich way back in 1988 ran a top speed of 254 MPH with a twin turbo v8 i not a gen3 but a 5.7L. I remember reading about it in the motor mag a few months back. Oztrack do ur calulations on that info and see if you come up with the same results.

General Information
Price: $400,000
Miles Per Gallon: 10/19 mpg
Curb Weight: 3671 lbs
Layout: Front-Engine/RWD
Transmission: 6-Speed Manual
Engine
Type: Twin-Turbo V8
Displacement: 5733 cc
Horsepower: 880 bhp @ 6250 rpm
Torque: 772 lb-ft @ --- rpm
Redline: ---- rpm
Performance
0-60 mph: 3.9 sec
0-100 mph: 9.4 sec
Quarter Mile: 10.6 sec @ 127 mph
Skidpad: .98g
Top Speed: 254 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph: 122 ft
Slalom Speed: 65.6 mph

[holdennutta]

is there anyway of doing speed testing on rollers like on a dyno?
The dyno wouldn't replicate the wind factor...so you would probably knock an indicated 300 up pretty easily.

[SICK SS]

is there anyway of doing speed testing on rollers like on a dyno?

I dought it would be very accurate without any dag or wind resistance. unless u can blow really hard
:D

[Uncle Tone]

300km/h is achievable, I'm sure, but you can't use 6th to do it. You will never get a Commodore to do 300 km/h in 6th gear. 5th is possible, even more so with 3.55's.

Consider the VY clubby. Diff ratio is 3.73, 5th at 100 clicks reads 2200 on the tacho. Therefore you need to be doing 6600 in fifth to do 300 km/h, and you need an engine that makes peak power at that point or slightly above.

As far as power goes, I have no idea, but over 400kw at the fly would be the lower limit, considering aerodynamic issues.

Would it be safe to say that putting it in 6th (0.5 to 1) would effectively halve the torque?

[Sonnymad]

Heres a indication of wat speeds you will reach considering you had 3.91:1 diff ratio M6


Gearbox:- 1386-25 & 3.91 Diff Ratio
Tyre:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 54.531 KPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 354.448 KPH at 6500 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
40 KPH = 734 RPM 50 KPH = 917 KPM 60 KPH = 1100 RPM 80 KPH = 1467 RPM
100 KPH = 1834 RPM 110 KPH = 2017 RPM 130 KPH = 2384 RP

Top Speed in 1 gear = 66.832 KPH
And changes into 2 gear at 4530 RPM dropping 1970 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 95.889 KPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4490 RPM dropping 2010 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 138.805 KPH
And changes into 4 gear at 4545 RPM dropping 1955 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 198.491 KPH
And changes into 5 gear at 5460 RPM dropping 1040 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 236.299 KPH

And changes into 6 gear at 4333 RPM dropping 2167 RPM
Top Speed in 6 gear = 354.448 KPH

VZ M6 3.91:1 DIFF RATIO

Gearbox:- 1386-22 & 3.91
Tyre:-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Gear gives 61.074 KPH/1000 RPM and a top speed of 396.982 KPH at 6500 RPM

Engine speeds in top gear:-
40 KPH = 655 RPM 50 KPH = 819 KPM 60 KPH = 982 RPM 80 KPH = 1310 RPM
100 KPH = 1637 RPM 110 KPH = 1801 RPM

130 KPH = 2129 RPM 160 KPH = 2620 RPM

Top Speed in 1 gear = 74.621 KPH
And changes into 2 gear at 4350 RPM dropping 2150 RPM
Top Speed in 2 gear = 111.512 KPH
And changes into 3 gear at 4747 RPM dropping 1753 RPM
Top Speed in 3 gear = 152.685 KPH
And changes into 4 gear at 5000 RPM dropping 1500 RPM
Top Speed in 4 gear = 198.491 KPH
And changes into 5 gear at 4810 RPM dropping 1690 RPM
Top Speed in 5 gear = 268.231 KPH
And changes into 6 gear at 4392 RPM dropping 2108 RPM
Top Speed in 6 gear = 396.982 KPH


Regards Sonny

[OzJavelin]

Wasn't this done already by Motor magazine a couple years ago? A GTS 300kw was run just over 300km/h with minimal mods (eg. taping over some of the trim, pushing the mirrors back?). I'm sure it was done at Lang Lang or somewhere like that on a circular track ... I've got the article at home. I'll scan in the relevant bits when I find it.

I don't think it was all smooth sailing, but I'm sure they did it ..

Rod.

[Oztrack Tuning]

My software gives 266mph for that Callaway. They have a very low CD and even with much less hp they still did almost 300kph.

[Growler]

I think the CSV Mondo got around 285km and that has 370kw at the fly. A supercharged or Turbo LS1 with the right setup should crack 300.
Got the Motor DVD with the top speed run of the Mondo. 285 was done on the limiter in 5th as soon as they changed to 6th it dropped about 20 km/h. So with better gearing it would have gone faster. They did mention that it was a little light on the front end at those speeds though.

[lano]

Aussie cars just aren't engineered for these speeds out of the factory.
Engineering for speed isn't cheap or easy.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/bugatti.htm

May not be cheap, but I want one...... :cool:

[Mickey T]

i can't imagine an engine strong enough to make any commodore-based car with the stock sixth gear/final drive combination get over 300.\

tried it, a few times, and CSV is dead keen on it, but i'm convinced what it needs isn't necessarily more grunt, but a kinder 6th gear cog. or a far shorter final drive.

the monaro, particularly, is very stable at 270. and it's the same shell that's seen 280 odd in a CSV.

effectively, all commodores are speed limited by the rev limiter in fifth. nothing simpler. The four speed autos are actually faster because the ratios are different.

oh, and there's no way you'd drive the aps falcon at that speed on a public road. the falcon shell had no aero package on it, and that shouldn't diminish the engineering accomplishment.

[2001 ITR]

Hi Guys

I had this stuck away in a spread sheet, if you ignore gearing and aero (and that is a big if) you can use the following formula: desired power = ((desired speed/initial speed)^3) x initial power).


If a 260kw SV8 can go 260 kmh than a 400kw SV8 can go 300kmh. This is all based on observed max speeds and power outputs.

[Mickey T]

ignoring gearing and aero might work in a lab...

in the real world, the formula is bogus.

[frenchyss]

I wouldnt of thought it was all that difficult for an array of different vehicles to reach that speed, all that would change is which ones don't float off the road. My vt 2 ss with a few mods in a 4 speed auto with 3.73 diff gears goes to 250 without any dramas still with about 1500 revs before topping out. But to safely go above that, i would prefer a flat road with no undulations or bumps in it, when you go up to those speeds they make a difference.
cheers....

[SSBarney]

is there anyway of doing speed testing on rollers like on a dyno?

Its called salt lake :D

[vh-holden]

Its called salt lake :D

that brings us back to my other question - that gold commodore based dry lake racer - what does it do?

[SSBarney]

that brings us back to my other question - that gold commodore based dry lake racer - what does it do?

VX Commodore from Ballarat did 191 MPH, :D am i correct in saying that calculates to over 300kmh :confused:

[SSBarney]

that brings us back to my other question - that gold commodore based dry lake racer - what does it do?

The gold one i think u mean is the one owned by Rod Hadfield, I dont think there is very much commodore left besides the shell, that sits on a custom chassis. That got 255mph, thats 400kmh plus

[flappist]

A few observations and points.

The max speed at which a human body will fall is about 120Mph. After the end of the second world war there were several experements dropping stuff from fairly high up to see what would happen. Some of these things exceeded the speed of sound.

The GTS was not designed to accomodate the pressure and flow factors of travelling at 300km/h++, there are all sorts of strange things happen on all of the exposed surface areas that may cause problems (like lifting the arse end, crushing the suspension or building a vortex in the CAI for example)
Small things can make incredible differences, for example on a Piper PA31 aircraft, installing a number of little vanes about 8 cm long and 1 cm high on the wings and tail turn a nasty bitey 3 tonne monster into a pussy cat when landing at 150km/h.

I think it is quite possible that a VY GTS could be made to exceed 300km/h but I suspect that it will take more than just increased horsepower.

It would definitely be a game for extreme thrill seekers. I have been 250km/h in NT and over 400km/h in QLD & NSW (@10k) and the 250 was much much scarier.

[Jag530G]

As mentioned by others, gearing is the key problem with the Commodore, but there are a couple of factory options to help.

Currently Holdens max out at the redline in 5th, so putting in higher gearing for the 5th would help. This could be done with the standard M6 (with 0.5:1 6th) coupled with the 2.79 diff out of the the VZ SV6, should give a 5th gear ratio suitable 300kph (acceleration wouldn't be flash).

An alternative, if trying to acheive top speed in 6th would be to use the M6 gearbox out of the HSV VZ's which has the 6th gear ratio of about 0.60:1 (not sure exact ratio), this coupled with a 3.9 diff might allow 6th to be useful.

In terms of power, years ago Wheels Mag had a good article about a top speed shoot out, where a Porsche 928 only needed about 14kW to do 100 kph, but speed and power are a cubic relationship, to do 200 kph it needed about 112kW and if it could do 300 kph it would need 378kW and for 400 kph it would need 896kW. Since CdA doesn't change with speed, the only limitation is gearing.

[vh-holden]

The gold one i think u mean is the one owned by Rod Hadfield, I dont think there is very much commodore left besides the shell, that sits on a custom chassis. That got 255mph, thats 400kmh plus

how similar to a real commodore is the body? it would give an indication of aerodynamics stuff.

[Beej]

A few observations and points.

The max speed at which a human body will fall is about 120Mph.

Actually as an ex recreational skydiver with 250 jumps logged, a small correction ;) A human in a "flat" face/body horizontal to the earth will have a terminal velocity of approximately 120mph (200km/h). However, by turning your body so that it is in a vertical position (either feet or head down), terminal speeds of 160-180mph (260-300km/h) are routinely achieved - it's a form of skydiving called "freeflying", and even here speed is controlled by spreading your body (arms and legs) quite wide.

Some skydivers push the envelope even further and achieve even higher terminal speeds again by falling like a dart straigth down head first or with arms and legs tucked in tight, wearing body hugging suits etc - doing this can result in speeds of 250mph+ (400km/h) - there is an annual competition in the US to see who can fall the fastest for these crazy guys.

Cheers,

Beej

[SchrgdVSV6]

how similar to a real commodore is the body? it would give an indication of aerodynamics stuff.
Ive seen the car in real life and the overall shape looks identical, but construction/material and aero changes means it behaves nothing like the body its been replicated from. Something you couldnt do to a street car and still call it a street car.
It almost like saying Victor Brays top doorslammer is similar to a 57 chevy you find at the local wreckers...
http://www.dlra.org.au/events/speedtrials2004-036.jpg

[vh-holden]

are the things running along the roof splitter things?

http://www.dlra.org.au/events/speedtrials2004-036.jpg

the vh needs some i reckon :p

[Phido]

Getting back to the basic idea of this thread, what would it take to get a Commodore to 300 Kmph?

A decent intercooled supercharger installation, a Auto, thats basically it. The UAE car mentioned here basically had that, some upgraded brakes (optional). From all reports it was pretty scarey (tho may achived that speed on a public road).. Got to 300 Kmph. Proberly isn't safe but it definately possible.

I belive all the top speed runs with the sledge hammer were actually done in 5th gear. Apparently the 6th gear in the T-56 is a fair bit weaker, and most of the time computers limit the torque in that gear to help protect it. If I was using a T-56 I would proberly aim for top speed runs in 5th, its a much more sensable ratio anyway, and the higher diff really isn't a big worry if you have the sort of power to get over 300Kmph anyway.

Personally? Auto 5.7L monaro, supercharger, diff change. CSV should easily be able to develop a package that can top 300 Kmph given the right diff.

[Jag530G]

Taping over panel gaps would also help. (a while ago I read an article which refered to salt lake testing of an MG TF with a hard top, they got a few extra MHP out of it by taping over the panel gaps.)

Clips to hold the bonnet on would be needed, I hate to think of the air getting under the bonnet and breaking the catch. Cutting some vents in the back of the bonnet might also help reduce pressure under bonnet.

[Armadillo]

Aussie cars just aren't engineered for these speeds out of the factory. Unlike germans, that actually spend realy development dollars to get 250 Kmph cruise in a strong cross wind pretty much right and do it quietly. Something very few japanese cars have ever done (only really a NSX, GT-Rs/supras/WRX's/EVO's up in the higher limits of speeds turn into falcons and commodores).

But even they limit most of the cars to 250 Kmph odd. They de-restrict only certain cars, only after a certain period, for certain owners. Most cars will actually handle 230-250 reasonably well.. But climb over 250 and your into the unknown out of spec zone. To be honest, thats a speed rarely used, either on a track or on the road by most cars/drivers.

Definately start with a monaro. They can do 270kmph out of the box. You will want a fair wack of downforce so it keeps it on the road.. You will want a front splitter, flat body undertray, a rear diffuser, a proper spoiler. Maybe remove the mirrors and replace with LCD screens inside the car with cameras. Then about 450Kw.. The right gearing, a really good check over the hubs and bearings, brakes (upgraded for sure). New springs and shocks. Find the right tyres for the job as well.

The UAE commodore was a auto, supercharged, VX I think.. Was apparently extremely scarey, and there was a issue with 30 seconds at WOT where it would drain the surge tank and was unable to be filled faster from the regular tank. Problems people usually don't have..

Or buy a de-restricted Sl65 or a lambo, a 911 turbo or something.

Engineering for speed isn't cheap or easy.

In 1990, Opel did a Lotus turbo version of the Omega A which reached 283 km/h, pissing off BMW and Mercedes. The Omega A was a fleet/family car, pretty much like a VP Commodore.
I presume Lotus did a bit of work on the aero, as well as boosting crap out of the engines. I doubt the humble Omega was designed to go that fast. Most of them had pissy little engines.
The Omega got killed off before they could put a V8 in them. The ones sold in Brazil got a 4 litre engine, wouldn't have been faster than a Dunnydore.

[whitels1ss]

In 1990, Opel did a Lotus turbo version of the Omega A which reached 283 km/h, pissing off BMW and Mercedes. The Omega A was a fleet/family car, pretty much like a VP Commodore.
I presume Lotus did a bit of work on the aero, as well as boosting crap out of the engines. I doubt the humble Omega was designed to go that fast. Most of them had pissy little engines.
The Omega got killed off before they could put a V8 in them. The ones sold in Brazil got a 4 litre engine, wouldn't have been faster than a Dunnydore.

Well, that is what I call thread dredging, we don't need to ask you to :search::lol:

This thread is over 9 years old

Welcome to the forum buddy:6bow:

[offshore]

In the US its 200mph in the mile which is the aim for many and seems to be around 1000hp needed in current model Camaros. All it needs in a VF is the same just grunt to spare and wind it out in 6th you may need a few aero aids in the front to help down force.

[offshore]

Better than starting a new thread haha

[whitels1ss]

In the US its 200mph in the mile which is the aim for many and seems to be around 1000hp needed in current model Camaros. All it needs in a VF is the same just grunt to spare and wind it out in 6th you may need a few aero aids in the front to help down force.

You should have enough power with yours:idea:

[offshore]

You should have enough power with yours:idea:


Maybe i want try for a 10 first which will be hard with a manual plus I dont go drag racing I was mainly into Rallying over the years lol

[whitels1ss]

Maybe i want try for a 10 first which will be hard with a manual plus I dont go drag racing I was mainly into Rallying over the years lol

Look at the old thread at what Skaife did with his ute 8 years ago with heaps less power than you have;)

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?57351-Photos-Mobil-World-s-Fastest-Ute

[offshore]

Look at the old thread at what Skaife did with his ute 8 years ago with heaps less power than you have;)

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?57351-Photos-Mobil-World-s-Fastest-Ute

Yea im entered into Temora this year but looks like I wont make it as Ill be at work. But I may it give to a mate to drive in my spot just hope he doesnt write it off lol.

[HSV Listy]

There was a xr6 turbo stage three on wheels or some mag that did 307km/h. That would give you an idea what a commodore would need.
I've been 274 and the vx gts felt great. Another's 25 km would be reasonable with the basic aero, bigger wing and lower but you would need some 500rwkw like the xr6 had


http://www.airpowersystems.com/falcon/avalon/307kph.htm

[MARTY]

Well in 2003 Motor magazine got 275 km/h out of a GTS and 270 KM/h from a CV8 (both stock) at Avalon.........how much has have these speeds been improved on with another 11 years of evolution???????

[QIKMIK]

Surely the Hennessey Chevy SS (http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/hennessey-tunes-chevrolet-ss-1000-hp) would have a chance of getting there (along with most other built/boosted Commodores). I reckon that Hennessey would probably give 200mph a go if you sent him an email or FB message!

Mick

[macca_779]

I don't think alot of you guys realise how much power it takes to get a commy to 300. They are bricks when it comes to aero, and the amount of power it takes to overcome that is huge

[Cobalt]

290 gps measured in a vz clubby and light does not even come close to describing what the front end feels like. Remember guys all these forces are logarithmic not
Linear. An extra 25 kph is a massive increase in everything.

[whitels1ss]

Surely the Hennessey Chevy SS (http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/hennessey-tunes-chevrolet-ss-1000-hp) would have a chance of getting there (along with most other built/boosted Commodores). I reckon that Hennessey would probably give 200mph a go if you sent him an email or FB message!

Mick

Yes I agree but it depends how you look at it because plenty of the top speed runs are done over a set down measured distance (over a "measured mile" for example)

often doing a return run and using the average speed & given only a set distance before the start of the "measured" distance.

If it was just a matter of keeping it flat out in a straight line with no restrictions of the distance to wind it up on I think many cars could get there;)

(That is of course if you could hold them on the road at that speed) :lol:

[Toddler78]

290 gps measured in a vz clubby and light does not even come close to describing what the front end feels like. Remember guys all these forces are logarithmic not
Linear. An extra 25 kph is a massive increase in everything.


I don't think alot of you guys realise how much power it takes to get a commy to 300. They are bricks when it comes to aero, and the amount of power it takes to overcome that is huge

Yep hit the nail on the head. money would be better spent on aero rather then power after the 250km mark as I guess it would be cheaper to make the car more slippery then more powerful.

Also as Ed eluded to how much road have you got? @ 275kmph like listy said he was doing you are traveling at 76.4 metres a second, at a guess I would think if you had the power your increase in speed would probably be in the field of 0.5km per sec, so that extra 25kmph would be taking you 50 seconds or more importantly 3.82KM, which is a very long stretch of road.

I think the best way to get a commodore up to 300km is to drop it out of a plane.

[whitels1ss]

I think the best way to get a commodore up to 300km is to drop it out of a plane.

Nah, even that would not work:stick:

I remember watching something on Top Gear a while ago when they dropped a VW from a Chopper

& it did not drop anywhere near that fast, can't remember the exact speed of the drop but does not matter exactly but here is the vid...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiAbcw5s9_8

Anyway I just :google: "how fast would you fall if you fell from a plane without a parachute?" & it came up with


"if you fall out at 12,000 feet (about 2 miles up), you only have about 60 seconds before you hit the ground. In free fall, you fall at about 125 miles per hour (mph)
if you have your arms and legs extended, and at that speed you will travel about 12,000 feet in one minute."

http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/question729.htm

:lmao:

[sjhugh]

It’s not all about power, a well set up car it a good start but aero is the real secret and in particular under the car.

A stock 2010 C63 with only 336kw, their limiters turned off, a boxy front and not much lighter than the Commodore will on a long stretch of road hit between 310 and 319km/h.
I’ve read and seen many videos of it on the MB forums and the owners talk about how stable the cars are and that it comes from the flat undercarriage of the cars.

The early Series 2 VE’s Commodores that came with the undercarriage panels might be the ones to try a speed test with but even they don’t have all the panelling the AMG has.

My BMW also has a flat undercarriage and even though it isn’t quite as fast as some of my Commodores it definitely feels like it’s hugging the road when accelerating over 200+km/h compared to the Holden’s. The Commodore always feels too fidgety in the front at high speed in my opinion.

[JJW501]

Power has little to do with top speed, it is only a bandaid to poor aero and will not necessarily yield good results even with 1000hp.

Years ago I had an R1 motorcycle. I was at a location not to be named and travelling rather fast, bike would pull an indicated 260kmh in 5th gear. Upon changing to 6th, and applying full throttle, speed did not increase.

I thought this was a bike good for 290+ and was a bit disappointed.

At this time I forced y head down lower and closer to the windscreen. Immediately my speed went to 270, throttle position same.

Then I could feel the wind on my elbows so I tucked them in very tight and my speed went to 280 indicated.

Then I could feel the wind on my outer thighs and thought about trying to squeeze them in but I saw something on the road and by the time I has identified it, I was past it.

At this time I decided I was going plenty fast enough and slowed down to a more sensible speed.

At this time in my life, I was also not able to get more than 1000km out of a rear tyre. At these speeds, the rear tyre is turning faster than the fron, hence why more power is not going to delivery more speed forever.

With 1hp you could accelerate forever if there was no friction or wind resistance slowing you down

By the time you made a passenger car aerodynamic, you could have just invest in a vehicle that had some design features which were intended for high speed.

And that is the problem with these challenges. It is not a challenge, just a pissing contest of who wants to waste the most money. But it sure is a lot of fun along the way, just that chasing a specific record or number seems a bit pointless to me because no matter what you achieve, I can do better with another $100K. Or maybe another $1M!

JJW

[macca_779]

As above. You want to do 300km/h. Go drop $8k on an early bussa.

I'm getting an S1000R in the new year. It's capable of 9sec quarters stock as a rock. But it will only do 255km/h instead of the 300+ the S1000RR will do with basically the same engine.

At first I was dissapointed with this as it's still got 160Hp (RR has 193 but less torque). But it's geared lower which is an easy fix. But then I thought, I'm bloody crazy. It's a street fighter bike so even with appropriate gearing it's still a naked bike so the aero disadvantage isn't going to offer much higher speeds anyway even if I could put up with the wind in my face.

[Micks]

It’s not all about power, a well set up car it a good start but aero is the real secret and in particular under the car.

A stock 2010 C63 with only 336kw, their limiters turned off, a boxy front and not much lighter than the Commodore will on a long stretch of road hit between 310 and 319km/h.
I’ve read and seen many videos of it on the MB forums and the owners talk about how stable the cars are and that it comes from the flat undercarriage of the cars.

The early Series 2 VE’s Commodores that came with the undercarriage panels might be the ones to try a speed test with but even they don’t have all the panelling the AMG has.

My BMW also has a flat undercarriage and even though it isn’t quite as fast as some of my Commodores it definitely feels like it’s hugging the road when accelerating over 200+km/h compared to the Holden’s. The Commodore always feels too fidgety in the front at high speed in my opinion.

Are you serious? & where are we doing 200kmh+:hmmm: let alone 300kmh!!:shock:

[macca_779]

Are you serious? & where are we doing 200kmh+:hmmm: let alone 300kmh!!:shock:

Territory! Dozens of bikes are heading that way for the long ride charity event. I'm going in just over a month and will enjoy some open speed limit action

[A^K^T]

Territory! Dozens of bikes are heading that way for the long ride charity event. I'm going in just over a month and will enjoy some open speed limit action

There's only one road with an open speed limit at the moment isn't there ?

Is there anything to see out there besides the spedo needle flashing past the 110kph mark ?

[macca_779]

There's only one road with an open speed limit at the moment isn't there ?

Is there anything to see out there besides the spedo needle flashing past the 110kph mark ?

Yeah nth of Alice for a few hundred k's. Uluru is Sth of Alice for something to see

[A^K^T]

2500km or 1 day 9 hours away from Perth , pity my Bussa is an 07 and has a speed limiter.

[Bling Bling]

In 1990, Opel did a Lotus turbo version of the Omega A which reached 283 km/h, pissing off BMW and Mercedes. The Omega A was a fleet/family car, pretty much like a VP Commodore.
I presume Lotus did a bit of work on the aero, as well as boosting crap out of the engines. I doubt the humble Omega was designed to go that fast. Most of them had pissy little engines.
The Omega got killed off before they could put a V8 in them. The ones sold in Brazil got a 4 litre engine, wouldn't have been faster than a Dunnydore.

It was called the vauxhall carlton lotus 12 second 1/4 with 4 people in it and 280kms top speed and it is still worth a packet shaped like a brick, google it.

[macca_779]

2500km or 1 day 9 hours away from Perth , pity my Bussa is an 07 and has a speed limiter.

You mean you've left it stock!!. Wow

[offshore]

You mean you've left it stock!!. Wow

Lol yea why haven't you at least turbo charged it haha

[Jag530G]

It was called the vauxhall carlton lotus 12 second 1/4 with 4 people in it and 280kms top speed and it is still worth a packet shaped like a brick, google it.

Wouldn't knock the aero of the Omega A, aero was all the rage in Germany in the 80s, the influence of the Audi 100 saw to that. Opel went on with the aero theme with the Calibra, CD 0.26 for the 8 valve base model, a record at the time. The Omega A also had the bonus of being relatively narrow compared to the VN Commodore so less frontal area. The truth is the VN sedan was more aerodynamic than any Commodore sedan since excluding the VF. The early VEs, in particular, had bloody hopeless aerodynamics, huge frontal area and a CD of around 0.35+ for the be-spoilered models.

Cheers, Matthew

[amckiwi]

Another requirement would be big brass ones

[sjhugh]

Are you serious? & where are we doing 200kmh+:hmmm: let alone 300kmh!!:shock:


Yes I'm serious.

[C4B]

I was going to say "a cliff" but I'm not sure it's terminal velocity would even be that high.

[Smitty]

2500km or 1 day 9 hours away from Perth , pity my Bussa is an 07 and has a speed limiter.

... my 2001 A model Kwaka ZX12R doesn't have a limiter
AMCN ran one at Avalon when they came out and got to 321kmh :)

dontcha just luv large capacity mudderboikes....

[Blown 454 AWD]

Ha ha mine would shit in.

454ci 7.6L
Higgins Heads
3 inch exhaust
4 Litre Whipple @ 15 psi (somewhere round the 900 fwkw)
New suspension Pedders best
Harrop monster brakes
Cars only done 35000 klm

Who's going to do it, not me, I have no want to do 300+ kph in a Holden

Cheers

Steve

[Tre-Cool]

I've done 280-290 no worries in both VY & VE. The later model VE does feel a lot safer at those speeds though.

The VE antenna will bend over around 250kph and start smacking the rear window violently. Does it both mine and brothers car at around the same speed.

[team illucid]

The VE antenna will bend over around 250kph and start smacking the rear window violently. Does it both mine and brothers car at around the same speed.

That's why I got the bee sting to solve those post 250kmh speed slaps.

[Woodchukka]

It is not the speed that hurts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbNlR-fMlOw

[vy2ttr]

I have had my vy to over 300. However I wouldn't do it again. cant actually believe I did it..
Speedo topped out, but factory sat nav speedo said 307 from memory...

[team illucid]

I remember reading in a Torana mag several years ago of a guy in QLD with a supercharged L34 being busted by the cops at 263kmh - when questioned as to why responded with "I didn't want to push it too hard, the motor is only running in" - if an L34 can crack 263, a modern VT+ should do 300 relatively safely.

[macca_779]

I remember reading in a Torana mag several years ago of a guy in QLD with a supercharged L34 being busted by the cops at 263kmh - when questioned as to why responded with "I didn't want to push it too hard, the motor is only running in" - if an L34 can crack 263, a modern VT+ should do 300 relatively safely.

Pfft big bloody difference mate between 260 and 300

[team illucid]

Pfft big bloody difference mate between 260 and 300

No shit Sherlock - hence why I said relative.

[A^K^T]

... my 2001 A model Kwaka ZX12R doesn't have a limiter
AMCN ran one at Avalon when they came out and got to 321kmh :)

dontcha just luv large capacity mudderboikes....

:thumbsup:

They suck in really cold or hot weather , they suck when it's blowing a gale (crosswinds especially) or when it's raining , It's difficult to see what's behind you and your venerable to dim witted drivers with little protection around you.

But rolling on the throttle on a large bike that was made to perform is something else https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQk613yVKDo8yNYCDeZPG9Ir5ltevHY1 I9f9GvK8Xj01AteNJn6dg

[offshore]

I did 30,000km on a ZX6 and i wouldnt mind a new Ducati but always got the feeling I was a temporary Australian on a bike no room for error and constantly looking out for other people about to take you out.

[A^K^T]

I did 30,000km on a ZX6 and i wouldnt mind a new Ducati but always got the feeling I was a temporary Australian on a bike no room for error and constantly looking out for other people about to take you out.
Have been lucky myself , only been knocked off once so far and was able to ride away from that ($6k damage to the bike)

[tom_holden]

Have been lucky myself , only been knocked off once so far and was able to ride away from that ($6k damage to the bike)

If you get knocked off a bike going really fast and survive... God must really love you.

[A^K^T]

If you get knocked off a bike going really fast and survive... God must really love you.

It wasn't a high speed accident , I had stoped at a stop sign and the car behind me didn't.
Can't remember hitting the ground , one second I was looking to my right to see if the road was clear next I was on my back with the bike to my left on it's side and I was facing the car.

[Surfnturf]

I did 275 in my VY Monaro, it was ok while I had the hammer down as it sat low to the ground but once I backed off and tried to slow down it was floaty as all hell.Scared me actually, but the wind noise was incredible I couldn't hear the engine anymore just the wind.It was like I was in a tornado.never again.......

[whitels1ss]

Chrysler did it 45 years ago...

Back right around 1969, Chrysler unleashed upon the world what many consider to this day to be the epitome of American muscle.

We are referring of course to the Dodge Charger Daytona (and its corporate sibling, the Plymouth Superbird),

a car with such advanced aerodynamics that in factory form it could hit 200 mph.

It was so fast, that NASCAR had to ban it from competing.

This one did 277mph :goodjob:

http://www.streetlegaltv.com/news/video-on-board-a-277-mph-%E2%80%9869-dodge-daytona-at-bonneville/





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWBaAOyY5CY




And a couple of pictures of the road version......

3507




3508

[tom_holden]

Those kinds of stories make me nauseous, probably one of the main reasons why I stay away from bikes. Those things are just a magnet for bad luck.