Retail Car Sales - May 05 VFACTS

[strife]

from fcai

TOP TEN MAKES

Toyota gained the top sales position in the May monthly market with 16,841 vehicles, ahead of Holden with 15,465 and Ford third with 11,177. Toyota, with a market share of 19.2%, retains market leadership in year-to-date terms. Holden's May result sees them in second position with a market share of 18.4%, with Ford's market share of 13.5% placing them third. Mazda, with sales 5,259 and with a market share of 7.0%, hold fourth position. Mitsubishi sold 5,382 vehicles in May and with a share of 6.5%, are in fifth place ahead of Nissan, on 5.9% market share.


Holden YTM YTD

Adventra 184 551
Astra 2928 14155
Astra Convertible 81 531
Barina 823 3889
Caprice 85 351
Combo 101 474
Commodore 6451 29391
Cruze 234 1182
Jackaroo 1 7
Monaro 160 925
Rodeo 4X2 1406
Rodeo 4X4 851 4575
Statesman 277 1308
Utility 4X2 1509 7219
Utility 4X4 82 392
Vectra (4 cyl) 157 928
Vectra CDX 85 479
Zafira 50 380
TOTAL 15465 73120


Ford Courier 4X2 388 1443
Ford Courier 4X4 385 1760
Ford Econovan Van 23 206
Ford Escape 211 1485
Ford Explorer 45 210
Ford F250 4X2 7 45
Ford F250 4X4 179 909
Ford F350 4X2 5 19
Ford F350 4X4 6 23
Ford Fairlane 200 748
Ford Falcon 4530 21894
Ford Falcon Ute 1572 7367
Ford Fiesta 410 2166
Ford Focus 772 4146
Ford LTD 9 62
Ford Territory 2154 10062
Ford Transit 190 895
Ford Transit Bus 46 173
Ford Transit C/C 45 180
TOTAL Ford 11177 53793

[Smitty]

good info but
ooops typo on Commodore YTD = 2939?
MTD @6451 seems ok

[Patrick]

Tom Gorman from Ford Australia has admitted Falcon sales have softened at the hands of the Territory.

The difference in sales between the Commodore and Falcon in May are almost similar to what the Territory sold in May.

They are "robbing" Falcon to "pay" Territory !!!!!

As Holden said, "Ford's doing business with itself" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And how much extra did Ford have to spend to make the Territory? :confused:

Really makes good business sense :rolleyes:

[lowriding]

It does make good business sense because they are selling .Combine Falcon &Territory sales and it matches Commodore sales which is a fair bit better position than they were in ,so really they have plugged that sales gap nicely.Nice one FoMoCo. Having said that i still believe that 4WD and SUV s will go out of fashion sooner rather than later ,and if true you would not want too many eggs in that basket .

[Aus8]

Tom Gorman from Ford Australia has admitted Falcon sales have softened at the hands of the Territory.

The difference in sales between the Commodore and Falcon in May are almost similar to what the Territory sold in May.

They are "robbing" Falcon to "pay" Territory !!!!!

As Holden said, "Ford's doing business with itself" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And how much extra did Ford have to spend to make the Territory? :confused:

Really makes good business sense :rolleyes:

If you had actually added the Territory sales to the Falcon sales to back up your claim then you would have realised that they sold nowhere near that amount of Falcons before the Territory was on sale.

Cheers

Aus8

[Dickie Knee]

Dealers still have new Jackaroos to sell. :lol:

[Patrick]

It does make good business sense because they are selling .Combine Falcon &Territory sales and it matches Commodore sales which is a fair bit better position than they were in ,so really they have plugged that sales gap nicely.Nice one FoMoCo. Having said that i still believe that 4WD and SUV s will go out of fashion sooner rather than later ,and if true you would not want too many eggs in that basket .

I still can't help but wonder, that if instead of spending an extra half a billion dollars on developing this thing called Territory, Ford could have spent one tenth that on making the BA Falcon even better and would have got the same result of outselling the Commodore right now anyway ! :rolleyes:

My 2 cents....

[Patrick]

If you had actually added the Territory sales to the Falcon sales to back up your claim then you would have realised that they sold nowhere near that amount of Falcons before the Territory was on sale.

Cheers

Aus8

Yeah, but back then the Commodore was up against a disaster called AU, might have been a different story with BA, had Ford put all it's resources behind BA instead of splitting it with Territory!

The BA is a better car than Commodore in alot of areas right now. Why is it not outselling Commodore then?

IMHO, Ford will struggle now to recover Falcon sales, and not forgetting Holden have an all-new VE next year will only hurt Falcon sales even further.

[Patrick]

It does make good business sense because they are selling .Combine Falcon &Territory sales and it matches Commodore sales which is a fair bit better position than they were in ,so really they have plugged that sales gap nicely.Nice one FoMoCo. Having said that i still believe that 4WD and SUV s will go out of fashion sooner rather than later ,and if true you would not want too many eggs in that basket .

Also, I fail to see how it makes good business sense, when even you agree, that combined Falcon/Territory sales are matching Commodore sales alone, BUT, how much did it cost Ford to make Territory AND make Falcon ?
to Holden's cost of making Commodore alone ?

I'm no Einstein, but even blind freddy can work that one out, it ain't good business to be spending twice as much as your competitor for the same result ! :bash:

[Lees]

Also, I fail to see how it makes good business sense, when even you agree, that combined Falcon/Territory sales are matching Commodore sales alone, BUT, how much did it cost Ford to make Territory AND make Falcon ?
to Holden's cost of making Commodore alone ?

I'm no Einstein, but even blind freddy can work that one out, it ain't good business to be spending twice as much as your competitor for the same result ! :bash:

I agree.
Fords share is also down compared to last year.

"Lets go spend another $500 million and try and match Commodore sales with 2 cars." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :bash: :booty:

[mavss]

...and not forgetting Holden have an all-new VE next year will only hurt Falcon sales even further.
Let's not put the cart before the horse now.

[Ghia351]

Also, I fail to see how it makes good business sense, when even you agree, that combined Falcon/Territory sales are matching Commodore sales alone, BUT, how much did it cost Ford to make Territory AND make Falcon ?
to Holden's cost of making Commodore alone ?

I'm no Einstein, but even blind freddy can work that one out, it ain't good business to be spending twice as much as your competitor for the same result ! :bash:


I agree.
Fords share is also down compared to last year.

"Lets go spend another $500 million and try and match Commodore sales with 2 cars." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :bash: :booty:


I'm no Einstein either but you are all forgetting one thing and that is the Territory is not selling at a typical 70/30 fleet/private sales split like the Falcon & Commodore. It sells a hell of a lot more to private buyers meaning higher paying resulting in greater profits. You don't have to sell as much and you still make more money per unit as indicated by Ford's profit figure for last year. The 2 biggest selling models are AWD Ghia's and RWD TX's, the most expensive and cheapest models in the range with Ghia about 15% lower in total over the TX's so who's really laughing. It would be interesting to work out profit over units sold to see a rough comparison.

[Ghia351]

The BA is a better car than Commodore in alot of areas right now. Why is it not outselling Commodore then

..maybe because of pricing...and if you openly admit it's a better car would you still buy a BA if shopping in this class? Brand favouritism still weighs more in Holden's direction.

[Patrick]

Brand favouritism still weighs more in Holden's direction.

That's part of the reason, but not the only one.
Good marketing makes a big difference and Holden are better at target marketing.
Holden has also actively targeted the fleet market better than Ford as well.

Better brand favouritism. Holden's support on the race track also became dominate in the 1990's when Holden was the only one to offer a V8 for most of that decade and this created a whole new generation of young loyal Holden supporters which is still reaping the benefits today.

Ford has made gains with loyalty this decade with its V8 and racing support, and the new generation of younger supporters will translate into bigger sales later this decade and into next.

[Patrick]

I'm no Einstein either but you are all forgetting one thing and that is the Territory is not selling at a typical 70/30 fleet/private sales split like the Falcon & Commodore. It sells a hell of a lot more to private buyers meaning higher paying resulting in greater profits. You don't have to sell as much and you still make more money per unit as indicated by Ford's profit figure for last year. The 2 biggest selling models are AWD Ghia's and RWD TX's, the most expensive and cheapest models in the range with Ghia about 15% lower in total over the TX's so who's really laughing. It would be interesting to work out profit over units sold to see a rough comparison.

Territory obviously sells a higher proportion to private buyers but it only sells 2000 a month.

Compare the ratio to Falcon when it use to sell 6000 a month and alot of those private buyers of Falcon have transferred over to Territory.
I say again, (and so it seems Holden), it's Ford doing business with itself!

IMO, it does not justify spending another $500 million, for what seems small gains.
Even Holden has trouble justifing Ford's business case.

[pagey]

Let's not put the cart before the horse now.

Indeedilydoodily..

If some of these prelim pics are close to the money.. who knows.. GM may have an answer to the legendary AU!!

[bigdongers]

I for one feel that the BA is better than the Commodore overall if you take into account all the models.

They said all along that they were not expecting to outsell commodore immediately. There were far too many fleet contracts that were already signed with Holden. Its will be interesting to see how the new VE will go.

[Patrick]

I for one feel that the BA is better than the Commodore overall if you take into account all the models.

They said all along that they were not expecting to outsell commodore immediately.

Well, that was what, 3-4 years ago Ford said that?

I'm getting tired of waiting! :booty: :bash:

For as long as Ford continues to allow the Territory to cannibalize Falcon sales, then the Commodore shall reign supreme! :cool:

[gsw]

Well, that was what, 3-4 years ago Ford said that?

I'm getting tired of waiting! :booty: :bash:

For as long as Ford continues to allow the Territory to cannibalize Falcon sales, then the Commodore shall reign supreme! :cool:

I remember GP saying it would take forty years to get Ford Australia back to where it was in the 70's and 80's. This is simply because when Ford dropped the V8 and could not care about performance in the late 80's and 90's. In this time Holden created about 2 decades of young supporters and when those supporters have children they will be influenced. Unfortunatly for Ford they have to spend a hell of a lot of money to create some great cars to get some support back and this will take time.

[Lees]

Falcon sales are getting worse.
4560 sold in May is pretty bad.
Makes you wonder what Ford's gotta do.

I got a shock yesterday, I drove past Jubilee Ford at Five Dock here in Sydney (a major Ford dealer) and they have closed down half their dealership. The big glass showroom is now up "for lease"
Sales musn't be good?

[Marco]

Dead right about the impact of the loss of the V8 on Ford's image among younger buyers, IMHO.

Thinking back to when I was a kid, watching Bathurst, seeing V8 Commodores win, seeing the HDT and HSV road cars out there - it was pretty powerful stuff for a kid.

Look over at Ford at the time and they were racing the Sierra that you couldn't buy, and serving up XFs and EAs by the thousands.

End result? The mental image of Falcons is one of taxis and cars driven slowly by old blokes. Think Commodores and the image is Brock, Bathurst, the V8 and performance cars.

40 years sounds about right to me. Maybe my kids will see Falcons in a different light by then.

[Venom XR]

Holden also have a greater capacity to produce vehicles than Ford currently do. Falcon + ute +Territory capacity is stretched (still plenty of overtime at Ford happening...), and they adjust the model mix to suit what people are buying. More Territorys made = less Falcons made. Pure numbers don't mean as much as profit per unit does, and a Terriory sold to a private buyer would be good profit. With Ford also selling a large percentage of Falcons as XRs (more profit per unit than the average XT) and also doing a fair job with the FPV range, I'd think they'd be pretty happy. Ford are probably still suffering a little from wrath the incurred from fleet buyers when they were selling ELs at prices that were killing their resale value in a reaction to Holden releasing the VT.

If selling 2000+ a month to prodominantly private buyers after $500million spent on Territory is bad business sense, what is $250mil spent on Adventra which only sold 184 units last month, less than 100 the previous few months? Sure there's probably some $$ of that spent using that platform for Cross 8, Coupe 4 but only 84 4x4 utes sold, and maybe a few Coupe 4s.

I'm sure both companies are happy with the business decisions that were made.- they don't throw about that sort of money lighty.

[Jac001]

Ford have done well releasing the territory.

Part of it is brand recognisiton, part of it market share, part of it diversity on the production floor.

Holden doesn't have a SUV in the market place and it is hurting them badly...

You can't sell cars unless you get people into a showroom. People my only go in for a look at the Territory and see no only the falcon but all the other models too. Why does Toyota do so well? Cars are reliable and well priced and they have a good range of vechiles... people will go in to look at one thing and see everything else... overall it helps sales...

[paul05]

..maybe because of pricing...and if you openly admit it's a better car would you still buy a BA if shopping in this class? Brand favouritism still weighs more in Holden's direction.
spot on,i would'nt buy a ford.if i was'nt a commodore buyer i would have a v6 camry or mazda 6.

[Patrick]

If selling 2000+ a month to prodominantly private buyers after $500million spent on Territory is bad business sense,....

Well it is if you're losing 2000 Falcon sales a month in the process !!!

2 steps forward to go 2 steps backwards :rolleyes:

And out of pocket an extra $500 million :bash:

[Marco]

But are they losing 2000 Falcon sales a month? Combined Falc and Territory sales I think exceed Commodore sales - Falcon sales alone didn't exceed Commodore sales before Territory came out.

I'd say, if anything, they're losing 1000 Falcon sales a month and picking up 1000 buyers who would otherwise have bought a medium 4WD of some sort.

[RICHO]

Well it is if you're losing 2000 Falcon sales a month in the process !!!

2 steps forward to go 2 steps backwards :rolleyes:

And out of pocket an extra $500 million :bash:

Not quite...Ford's overall volume is up (Territory + Falcon that is) if you look and it's volume is up in higher margin products. Same volume at higher margin is always going to be better for a company.

As for it being a crap strategy.....I don't know.

From memory...Holden sold something in the vicinity of 40-45,000 more cars domestically than Ford last year AND exported some 45-48,000 more cars. That's nearly 100,000 more vehicle sales!!! And this looks like this.....

Ford
2004 Volume: 138172
2004 profit: $185.6million (after tax)
Avge After tax Profit per unit: $1343.00

Holden
2004 Volume: 230027 (from VFacts)
2004 Profit: $285million (after tax)
Avge After Tax Profit per unit: $1238.00

Sooooo......Ford's business case is worse than Holdens??

And this year Ford is selling more higher margin vehicles?? (Falcon down about 4000 units YTD and Territory up nearly 8000 units)

You could argue that one of these companies is spending a lot more than the other on advertising, subsidies and promotions....about $23million more.

[Ghostdriver]

I still can't help but wonder, that if instead of spending an extra half a billion dollars on developing this thing called Territory, Ford could have spent one tenth that on making the BA Falcon even better and would have got the same result of outselling the Commodore right now anyway ! :rolleyes:

My 2 cents....

Would have made not a tot of difference.

The BA Falcon was a vastly superior gadget to the VY Commodore anyway and the Holden still outsold it.

The Holden brand is simply worth more than the Ford one in Australia and, if Ford wants to up its sales, it has to add product that's pretty unique in the marketplace.

Territory is winning some sales from Falcon, a tiny amount from Commodore, but hopefully is dragging most of its success away from poor-handling poo flatteners like Prado, Pajero and Patrol.

[clixanup]

Ford
2004 Volume: 138172
2004 profit: $185.6million (after tax)
Avge After tax Profit per unit: $1343.00

Holden
2004 Volume: 230027 (from VFacts)
2004 Profit: $285million (after tax)
Avge After Tax Profit per unit: $1238.00


How do the pre-tax profits compare?

There are so many factors affecting many companys' tax expense these days that comparing the after tax profit is almost meaningless, especially when you're using it as a measure of efficiency.

I'm not trying to be a smart-arse. This is a legitimate question.

[lxhatch]

Territory is winning some sales from Falcon

Not according to Gorman a couple of weeks ago:

"Although about 50 per cent of Territory sales have been substitution for Falcon sales, Gorman says the net result for the first four months of this year is that the company is still about 4000 units ahead with Territory having found nearly 8000 buyers and Falcon sales off by just over 4000 units."

[Patrick]

The BA Falcon was a vastly superior gadget to the VY Commodore anyway and the Holden still outsold it.

If Territory wasn't around, the BA Falcon would most probably be challenging the VZ Commodore for top selling car right now, there's your extra 2000 lost to Territory, which some of you are forgetting.

Going on May sales roughly:-
Commodore 6500
Falcon 4500
Territory 2000

Take out Territory and BA Falcon may have very well sold 6500 now too with Ford's improved output.

In the days of VY, Ford was only starting to ramp up production of the new BA (after the disaster AU) and couldn't take the fight up to Commodore straight away, Holden had too much of a head start.
You could not say that now.

[Patrick]

Not according to Gorman a couple of weeks ago:

"Although about 50 per cent of Territory sales have been substitution for Falcon sales, Gorman says the net result for the first four months of this year is that the company is still about 4000 units ahead with Territory having found nearly 8000 buyers and Falcon sales off by just over 4000 units."

Hmmmm, and it still makes me think this extra net 4000 sales this year may have come from the improved BA Falcon this year anyway if Territory wasn't around.

Who else agrees?

Those that keep referring to 2004 or 2003 sales of Falcon are wasting our time, this is 2005 and a whole new ball game.
Take into account the BA Falcon has improved and with it so should sales anyway. Damn Territory has put paid to that though. :bash:

[lxhatch]

those figures are for the 1st four months 2005 - I dont believe Territory was out for that period of 2004.

If half the Territory buyers would have bought falcon, then Falcon would still be 1000 short of Commodore.

Possibly, Territory has also taken sales from Tribute and Explorer too.

Nonetheless, it would appear the sales weakness in overall market share for Henry, is to do with the rest of the range.

[Jag530G]

To settle the debate about per vehicle profitabilty, is there any info on the the breakdown on sales of the Commodore and Falcon, ie Exec vs XT, Acclaim vs Futura, Berlina vs Fairmont, Calais vs Ghia; SV6, SV8, SS vs XR6, XR6T, XR8. And more importantly the breakdown on fleet vs private buyers.

I'm of the opinion that Holden would be doing OK with the performance of the Monaro, a high margin product that has long since paid for it's development costs and is sold predominantly to private buyers. Ford would be similarly happy with the Territory as it to is predominatly sold to private buyers.

The greatest problem facing the Commodore and Falcon which has lead to decling market share over many years is the rise of user chooser leasing, people are realising that they don't need a big sedan and are buying Mazda 6's or Liberty's in the 30-40K price range, or if they are in the 50-60K price range a BMW 3 series is the weapon of choice. Otherwise those after a family vehicle are going for SUV's.

Think about this: The people buying SUV's today would have all bought Falcons/Fairlanes/Kingswoods/Commodores/Statesmans 20-30 years ago, without exception. These people are the lost tribes as far as Holden and Ford are concerned, and Ford has made the best move with the Territory.

[Lees]

Hmmmm, and it still makes me think this extra net 4000 sales this year may have come from the improved BA Falcon this year anyway if Territory wasn't around.

Who else agrees?

Those that keep referring to 2004 or 2003 sales of Falcon are wasting our time, this is 2005 and a whole new ball game.
Take into account the BA Falcon has improved and with it so should sales anyway. Damn Territory has put paid to that though. :bash:

I agree. Ford has made a net growth of around 4000 sales so far this year, but if Ford just had the Falcon, then all those Territorys registered by the dealers and the Ford factory would have gone to the Falcon, :rolleyes:
Ford would not have had to spend another $500 million, this just seems bloody stupid for small gains. :bash:

Me, I would have deleted Territory and put all my might behind Falcon and saved $500 million. ;)
it's Ford we're talking about, they're not the brightest bunch :lol:

[vzsv6]

I think that this whole suv boom is just a temporary fad which will slowly start to decline in popularity. Ford has taken a massive gamble with the territory and while it seems to have got off to a good start, it could all very well turn around and slap ford in the face.
With the rising price of fuel, higher running costs, government plans to tax these vehicles and the growing critisism of the safety of these types of vehicles, people will slowly but surely start to see the light and move away.

[Patrick]

The greatest problem facing the Commodore and Falcon which has lead to decling market share over many years

This is the one thing that really shiits me when all the dooms-dayers say things like this :mad: too many people listen to media hype and Toyota who talk it down. :mad:
(Toyota being very jealous of Holden and Ford's success with Commodore and Falcon.)
I've noticed at every opportunity Toyota gets, they talk down the large car segment.
It's of great benefit to them to get people away from thinking Commodore and Falcon and into smaller Toyotas !!!!!!!!

Funny thing is, Ford and Holden have never built more of the buggers! (no pun intended :D)
Holden is breaking production records and Ford's gaining too. Exports are obviously the way of the future to sustain long-term growth, but domestic growth is just as important.
What gets me is how people look at categories only and not individual models. :mad:
Of course a category is going to grow if you feed it more and more models to choose from each year.
Look at the small car market for example, how many small cars did we have to choose from 20 years ago, about half what we have to choose from today, so of course the small car market has grown in market share in that time.

The problem is no-one else has come up with a car to seriously compete with Falcon and Commodore, so all the dooms-dayers are saying the large car market is in decline.
Throw extra models at it (like other categories) and we might not be talking about it !!!!!!!

Ask Holden or Ford and they can't keep up with demand!

If Toyota had come up with a serious Avalon and Mitsubishi didn't fall asleep with Magna 6, then we might not be listening to this crap.

We had 2 serious contenders in the large car segment 20 years ago and we still have the same senario today.
All others catergories have doubled or so in offerings and taken share away, but reality is the Falcon and Commodore are still selling roughly the same amount as 20 years ago, if not better and they are in the last years of their current model cycle.
(Admittedly Commodore is doing better than Falcon)

I certainly hope the new generation Commodore and Falcon can kick some butt and shut up the critics! :bash:

[Lees]

I think that this whole suv boom is just a temporary fad which will slowly start to decline in popularity. Ford has taken a massive gamble with the territory and while it seems to have got off to a good start, it could all very well turn around and slap ford in the face.
With the rising price of fuel, higher running costs, government plans to tax these vehicles and the growing critisism of the safety of these types of vehicles, people will slowly but surely start to see the light and move away.

It will certainly be interesting if this new tax goes ahead, how it will affect Territory.
I'm not a fan of the thing, it looks to much like a mini-bus or a soccer mum bus. :lol:

[Smitty]

This is the one thing that really shiits me when all the dooms-dayers say things like this :mad: too many people listen to media hype and Toyota who talk it down. :mad:
(Toyota being very jealous of Holden and Ford's success with Commodore and Falcon.)
I've noticed at every opportunity Toyota gets, they talk down the large car segment.
It's of great benefit to them to get people away from thinking Commodore and Falcon and into smaller Toyotas !!!!!!!!

:

½ right...Toyota are very smart...wanting to steer people away from the large car segment
(this is a world wide issue..happens in the US and UK too)
but they are not jealous :eek: , not at all
no
Toyota has defined their niche in the automotive markets
..the micro, small, medium 4WD (sorry...SUV) markets
and they aim to be #1 in all of them..stuff Mazda or Nissan or BMW or whoever..they take NO prisoners!
and
the more people (customers) they can drag away from other market segments, the stronger the better the richer (more profitable) they will be . They are #1 world wide and aim to stay there.

The Aussie large car market is an anathema to them...why?
because they cannot control it like other market segments
so they carry on about it, complain winge*
how bad the (quality of) cars are, how fuel inefficient the cars are
how they can't get into motorsport with these
(in other words they CANNOT win!)
how the fleets ignore their vehicles
how the governments won't buy them

*Toyota will do whatever to control or influence the worldwide automotive industry
and Ford or GM will not stand in their way....

simple isn't it

oh
and yes, the aussie market is small, but 'honour' is everything in Japan
not having the honour if being in control of the Oz market is 'not honourable san'

cheers

[Patrick]

½ right...Toyota are very smart...wanting to steer people away from the large car segment
(this is a world wide issue..happens in the US and UK too)
but they are not jealous :eek: , not at all
no
Toyota has defined their niche in the automotive markets
..the micro, small, medium 4WD (sorry...SUV) markets
and they aim to be #1 in all of them..stuff Mazda or Nissan or BMW or whoever..they take NO prisoners!
and
the more people (customers) they can drag away from other market segments, the stronger the better the richer (more profitable) they will be .
They are #1 world wide and aim to stay there.

The Aussie large car market is an anathema to them...why?
because they cannot control it like other market segments
so they carry on about it, complain winge*
how bad the (quality of) cars are, how fuel inefficient the cars are
how they can't get into motorsport with these
(in other words they CANNOT win!)
how the fleets ignore their vehicles
how the governments won't buy them

*Toyota will do whatever to control or influence the worldwide automotive industry
and Ford or GM will not stand in their way....

simple isn't it

cheers

I, for one will never buy one of their fridges. BORING!

Toyota have an all-new Avalon in the wings and going on past record, I think this time Holden and Ford should be very worried by this car.

I'm surprised actually it's taken this long for Toyota to come up with a serious contender, but anyway, when it arrives, it should not be taken lightly.

[Nobby]

I think that this whole suv boom is just a temporary fad which will slowly start to decline in popularity...

http://m.1asphost.com/andrewgreer/temppics/informationminister.jpg
There is no Territory! If there was such a vehicle we would crush it! Our mighty Commodore's will destroy the Ford infidels! There is no sales success! No amount of money no matter how wisely spent will be able to defeat our mighty four-wheeled warriors and their many derivitives! We shall drive them into the sea!

[Ghia351]

I, for one will never buy one of their fridges. BORING!

Toyota have an all-new Avalon in the wings and going on past record, I think this time Holden and Ford should be very worried by this car.

I'm surprised actually it's taken this long for Toyota to come up with a serious contender, but anyway, when it arrives, it should not be taken lightly.
Not really surprising when you have greater design control which is now the case and will only grow further since Toyota's new design centre behind Monash University (Melb) is up and running...and made up of mostly Australian designers one of which was a Ford designer in charge of the BA XR range.

[vzsv6]

http://m.1asphost.com/andrewgreer/temppics/informationminister.jpg
There is no Territory! If there was such a vehicle we would crush it! Our mighty Commodore's will destroy the Ford infidels! There is no sales success! No amount of money no matter how wisely spent will be able to defeat our mighty four-wheeled warriors and their many derivitives! We shall drive them into the sea!

Geez, you've been smoking some REALLY good crack :lol:

[Venom XR]

Well it is if you're losing 2000 Falcon sales a month in the process !!!

2 steps forward to go 2 steps backwards :rolleyes:

And out of pocket an extra $500 million :bash:

How convenient of you to totally ignore the point that Holden spent $250 million on a vehicle that sold only 184 units this month, and less than 100 units last month in comparison.

You're 2000 less Falcons thing is rubbish as well, as this proves.

In May 2004, Ford sold 5204 Falcons, 1692 utes and no Territorys and Holden sold 6275 Commodores, 1719 + 165 4x2 and 4x4 utes and 250 Adventuras. 1 year later, Ford sell 4530 Falcons, 2154 Territorys and 1572 utes, Holden sell 6451 Commodores, 184 Adventras (now with V6) and 1509 + 82 4x2 and 4x4 utes.

For Ford, 6892 in 04 vs 8256 in 05. Holden, 8409 in 04 vs 8226. You have to compare month by month for each year, because of buying trends. For example, June = end of year run outs and increased sales.

So in 1 year, Holden goes backwards less than 200 units, Ford moves forward around 1350 with a total locally built model mix that surpasses Holdens in the same month - which they wouldn't have done with Falcon + ute alone anymore.

You're wasting your time Patrick pushing your anti-Territory barrow. The most important people in the equation - those buying them - disagree with you. Before you retort Patrick, don't forget - $250mil on the Holden-based 4x4 platform, hardly a sales success. Based on your 'criteria' - less smart that Ford, because at least Ford are recouping their expenditure with sales. A few more million in investment, and there's Turbo Terris, diesel Terris, more hardcore off-road Terris, etc. Holden has admitted defeat by opting to challenge it with GM import. :p

[vzsv6]

Holden has admitted defeat by opting to challenge it with GM import.

Not really.... Even if Holden wanted to design and develop its own suv, it simply does not have the capacity in its production plant to support another line. It is already maxxed out with exports etc....

At least with an import they can have an suv WITHOUT cannibalising Commodore production.

[Patrick]

How convenient of you to totally ignore the point that Holden spent $250 million on a vehicle that sold only 184 units this month, and less than 100 units last month in comparison.

You're 2000 less Falcons thing is rubbish as well, as this proves.

In May 2004, Ford sold 5204 Falcons, 1692 utes and no Territorys and Holden sold 6275 Commodores, 1719 + 165 4x2 and 4x4 utes and 250 Adventuras. 1 year later, Ford sell 4530 Falcons, 2154 Territorys and 1572 utes, Holden sell 6451 Commoores, 184 Adventras (now with V6) and 1509 + 82 4x2 and 4x4 utes.

For Ford, 6892 in 04 vs 8256 in 05. Holden, 8409 in 04 vs 8226. You have to compare month by month for each year, because of buying trends. For example, June = end of year run outs and increased sales.

So in 1 year, Holden goes backwards less than 200 units, Ford moves forward around 1350 with a total locally built model mix that surpasses Holdens i the same month - which they wouldn't have done with Falcon + ute alone anymore.

You're wasting your time Patrick pushing your anti-Territory barrow. The most important people in the equation - those buying them - disagree with you. Before you retort Patrick, don't forget - $250 on the Holden-based 4x4 platform, hardly a sales success. Based on your 'criteria' - less smart that Ford, because at least Ford are recouping their expenditure with sales. A few more million in investment, and there's Turbo Terris, diesel Terris, more hardcore off-road Terris, etc. Holden has admitted defeat by opting to challenge it with GM import. :p

Hey, mate, I have never hid the fact I do not like the Territory, never have, never will. It's a bus, not for me!

Since when did the utes come into this equation?

Lets keep to the facts in discussion, your comparison for 2004 and 2005 is:-

2004
Commodore 6275 Falcon 5204
Adventra 250 No Territory
Total 6525 Total 5204

Difference in favour of Holden: 1321

2005
Commodore 6451 Falcon 4530
Adventra 184 Territory 2154
Total 6635 Total 6684

Difference in favour of Ford: 49

The turn-around difference is 1370 and over 12 months average is 16,440.

As I've said before and I'll say it again, it doesn't justify spending another $500 million
(especially for a net gain of only 16,440 per year!!!!)

Ford could have easily saved this money and put all their they efforts behind getting the BA Falcon matching or bettering the VZ Commodore's sales for alot less money.

If you don't understand that, then I give up! :booty: :bash:

[Lees]

How convenient of you to totally ignore the point that Holden spent $250 million on a vehicle that sold only 184 units this month, and less than 100 units last month in comparison.:p

This model has been V8 only up until this month as Holden has only just started building the V6 models early last month.
Why not compare apples with apples as Territory is 6 cylinder?
Remember, Holden not only developed the Adventra but also all the other AWD models in it's line-up with the money, so it wasn't just one model as you seem to think.
Lets re-visit this when Holden has all the AWD models on the market for a few months in both V6 and V8.
So wake from your bias and realize it's an unfair comparison :bash:

[vzsv6]

Well said Lees :)

[Ghia351]

Hey, mate, I have never hid the fact I do not like the Territory, never have, never will. It's a bus, not for me!
After looking at Chevy Silverado's http://trucks.about.com/od/2004chevygmcphotos/l/bl_silv_d.htm
I can see what you mean, btw which model do you steer?

[RICHO]

Not really.... Even if Holden wanted to design and develop its own suv, it simply does not have the capacity in its production plant to support another line. It is already maxxed out with exports etc....

At least with an import they can have an suv WITHOUT cannibalising Commodore production.

Exactly!!

And they will be importing a rebadged Daewoo....

Though I struggled to see that as being a positive. Hamburgler wouldn't have let it happen, it would have been a US sourced SUV, but Mooney, will go for the lowest cost option. A daewoo SUV.....should be a solid unit :rolleyes:

[Ghostdriver]

http://m.1asphost.com/andrewgreer/temppics/informationminister.jpg
There is no Territory! If there was such a vehicle we would crush it! Our mighty Commodore's will destroy the Ford infidels! There is no sales success! No amount of money no matter how wisely spent will be able to defeat our mighty four-wheeled warriors and their many derivitives! We shall drive them into the sea!


That is f#cking brilliant.

[Patrick]

After looking at Chevy Silverado's http://trucks.about.com/od/2004chevygmcphotos/l/bl_silv_d.htm
I can see what you mean, btw which model do you steer?

This
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/ss/

Hope your not implying I drive a "bus"? Now that would be below the belt!
A pick-up truck is a very different appliance to a mini-bus!

[Venom XR]

Hey, mate, I have never hid the fact I do not like the Territory, never have, never will. It's a bus, not for me!

Since when did the utes come into this equation?

If you don't understand that, then I give up! :booty: :bash:

Well, it's obvious you don't understand. Utes come into the equation because they are part of the CAPACITY equation. For each ute Ford builds, it's one more 6 cyl engine the Geelong plant has to build, another set of panels the stamping plant has to create, and other shell assembled in the plant at Broadmeadows. Ford has a finite (look up the word in a bloody dictionary) capacity (look that one up too) to produce vehicles (including utes.) The same thing affects Holden, only Holden has more capacity.

The model mix is 'tuned' to what sells and what makes profit. That's why utes matter.

Once again Patrick, you totally ignore Holden $250 mil spend. And you Lees, read properly. I mentioned $250 mil spent on a 4x4 platform, which includes 4x4 utes (a whole 84 sold this month) and Coupe 4, etc. Don't hypoctical either pal, your bias is glaring obvious. I'm simply debunking pro-Holden stupidity spewing forth some the likes of yourself, no didn't to the odd few who the do the same for Holden on fordforums when the guys there get carried away.

Facts are, Territory is a success. If you don't like it, fine, but rubbishing it without looking at the whole picture is pointless.

[Patrick]

Well, it's obvious you don't understand. Utes come into the equation because they are part of the CAPACITY equation. For each ute Ford builds, it's one more 6 cyl engine the Geelong plant has to build, another set of panels the stamping plant has to create, and other shell assembled in the plant at Broadmeadows. Ford has a finite (look up the word in a bloody dictionary) capacity (look that one up too) to produce vehicles (including utes.) The same thing affects Holden, only Holden has more capacity.

The model mix is 'tuned' to what sells and what makes profit. That's why utes matter.

Once again Patrick, you totally ignore Holden $250 mil spend. And you Lees, read properly. I mentioned $250 mil spent on a 4x4 platform, which includes 4x4 utes (a whole 84 sold this month) and Coupe 4, etc. Don't hypoctical either pal, your bias is glaring obvious. I'm simply debunking pro-Holden stupidity spewing forth some the likes of yourself, no didn't to the odd few who the do the same for Holden on fordforums when the guys there get carried away.

Facts are, Territory is a success. If you don't like it, fine, but rubbishing it without looking at the whole picture is pointless.

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND AND CLEARLY READ WHAT I SAID! :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT TERRITORY CANNIBALIZING FALCONS SALES. :mad:

[RICHO]

Patrick I get what you said. But Ford investing the $500m of Territory money on the BA would not have equated to the same level of sales and Falcon sales would still be lagging behind Commodore, end result, same investment, less sales, less profit = a far worse outcome for Ford.

And why??

The AU was a disaster for Ford. Not just the design (which we all know was vomit inducing...excpet for maybe the XR's) but the impact this model had on Ford's fleet sales. When the AU flopped, Ford started throwing money at the car, discounts, incentives etc, killing the AU's residual values and burning a HUGE number of fleet operaters and company fleets!! And the outcome, these fleets deserted Ford big time and were welcomed by Holden with open arms. Holden have treated them well, they've protected the residual values of the Commodre as much as possible, and been genrous with incentives where appropriate to protect their fleet business. They have effectively locked Ford out of many fleet deals through a combination of good business and good service.

When 75% + of the large car market is fleet based you can see the problems this presents for Ford. There just isn't adequate market volume for them to be producing and selling 6500 Falcons a month.

The Territory wasn't just a response to the current SUV market it was also a response to Falcon's position in the marketplace. It enables Ford to maintain production levels without cannibalising resale values to maintain volume, it delivers stronger profits on a per unit basis because it sells primarily into the private market. The % of Ford sales being made to fleets has dropped (and that's a good thing!). Quite simply the Territroy is working for Ford. Profits are up, total volumes are up, and the future of the company is far more secure that it was 3 years ago.

If you want to look at it another way, Territory is the ultimate compliment to the way Holden has conducted it's Commodore business. It was a gamble that appears to be paying off handsomely for Ford and a gamble that Holden didn't need to take (thus the somewhat more compromised and far less successful Adventra).

[Ghostdriver]

This
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/ss/

Hope your not implying I drive a "bus"? Now that would be below the belt!
A pick-up truck is a very different appliance to a mini-bus!

For a start, a mini-bus doesn't fall over if you go round a corner too quick. Or it does.

[Patrick]

Patrick I get what you said. But Ford investing the $500m of Territory money on the BA would not have equated to the same level of sales and Falcon sales would still be lagging behind Commodore, end result, same investment, less sales, less profit = a far worse outcome for Ford.

Finally, someone who sees the light, at least you have opened your mind (unlike other Ford bias people on this forum) to what I am saying.
What if, there was no Terittory?
Would Falcon be selling better?
Of course it would!
By how much?
Who knows!

But Falcon on it's own, would have made substantial inroads into the extra net 16,000 sales (or so) gained by Territory over Falcon this year, so in the end how much extra sales has Ford really gained ???

Try HONESTLY answering that one you bias Ford supporters! :booty:

[Patrick]

For a start, a mini-bus doesn't fall over if you go round a corner too quick. Or it does.

Ummmm, any car/truck/bus will do this if you go around it too quick! :rolleyes:

Drive to the conditions and ability buddy!

Not every one wants to drive like Schumacher every time they step in their vehicle. :bash:

[RICHO]

Don't think it's a question that can be answered. Too many what if(s) are required.

But I'll try...in it's best month last year I think Ford sold maybe 6200 Falcons and this would have been during a strong month with substantial incentives on offer. or most of the year Falcon volumes were beteen 5,000 and 5,500 units (that's right through the year)..

So in the absence of territory you could argue that Flacon sales would have continued at this level. Or about 800 units more than the current volume trend giving a net incremental volume of about 1400 units per month for Ford (around the 16440) you had in an earlier email).

I doubt Ford could have lifted falcon sales to be consistently performing at 6000 plus units per month without substantial discounts, incentives and an adverse profit impact.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) is does an additional 16000 units justify $500m of investment. The answer is yes and no (gotta hedge my bets).

You can't look at only the increment in sales because Ford have substituted a high margin product for a lower margin product on every occasion a territory is purchased instead of a Falcon. So even that 800 units per month substitution is better for Ford despite lower Falcon sales numbers.

$500m investment

Scenario 1 - All Territroy Sales
Territory Sales 24000 per annum
Over product lifecycle (5 years) 120,000 units
i.e. Ford require an average profit per vehcile on Territory of about $4k to recoup their investment. And they're getting it (let's call the margin >$5k and no there will be no exact figure provided)

Scenario 2 - Incremental Sales
Incremental Territory Sales 1400 units p/mth or 16,800 per annum
Product Lifecycle of 5 years 84000
Ford would require a margin of nearly $6k per unit to recoup their investment. Are they getting it?
Can't answer that question without recognising that the substitution Falcon to Territory leads to more profits as well So need to include
Substiution Volume 7200
Incremental Margin over Falcon (we'll call that $3000)

Does Territroy stack up under scenrio 2? It actually stacks up really well.

It's a good profitable product.

Probably the one question that we should try to answer is this.....

If Holden had the capacity (and the don't given how well Commodore sells) to produce an INCREMENTAL 1400 units per year would they have delilvered the Adventra or a more comprehensive alternative like the Territory??

[Patrick]

Don't think it's a question that can be answered. Too many what if(s) are required.

But I'll try...in it's best month last year I think Ford sold maybe 6200 Falcons and this would have been during a strong month with substantial incentives on offer. or most of the year Falcon volumes were beteen 5,000 and 5,500 units (that's right through the year)..

So in the absence of territory you could argue that Flacon sales would have continued at this level. Or about 800 units more than the current volume trend giving a net incremental volume of about 1400 units per month for Ford (around the 16440) you had in an earlier email).

I doubt Ford could have lifted falcon sales to be consistently performing at 6000 plus units per month without substantial discounts, incentives and an adverse profit impact.

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) is does an additional 16000 units justify $500m of investment. The answer is yes and no (gotta hedge my bets).

You can't look at only the increment in sales because Ford have substituted a high margin product for a lower margin product on every occasion a territory is purchased instead of a Falcon. So even that 800 units per month substitution is better for Ford despite lower Falcon sales numbers.

$500m investment

Scenario 1 - All Territroy Sales
Territory Sales 24000 per annum
Over product lifecycle (5 years) 120,000 units
i.e. Ford require an average profit per vehcile on Territory of about $4k to recoup their investment. And they're getting it (let's call the margin >$5k and no there will be no exact figure provided)

Scenario 2 - Incremental Sales
Incremental Territory Sales 1400 units p/mth or 16,800 per annum
Product Lifecycle of 5 years 84000
Ford would require a margin of nearly $6k per unit to recoup their investment. Are they getting it?
Can't answer that question without recognising that the substitution Falcon to Territory leads to more profits as well So need to include
Substiution Volume 7200
Incremental Margin over Falcon (we'll call that $3000)

Does Territroy stack up under scenrio 2? It actually stacks up really well.

It's a good profitable product.

Probably the one question that we should try to answer is this.....

If Holden had the capacity (and the don't given how well Commodore sells) to produce an INCREMENTAL 1400 units per year would they have delilvered the Adventra or a more comprehensive alternative like the Territory??

You have made some interesting scenarios, will it work?

You haven't taken into account what competition and discounting will do to profit in years to come?
I already see dealers advertising discounts and deals on Territory! (Profit per vehicle would be down already)

Territory has had a good first year sales, but will that always be the case? (And at the expense of Falcon)

What will the Territory be selling in years to come, especially with increased competition?

Will the market tire of Territory as other newer product arrives?

Falcon is cheaper to buy and run than Territory, if fuel prices keep going up will this affect sales?

Proposed higher Taxes on 4WD's, will that have an affect?

SUV's are becoming anti-social in some quarters, how will this affect future market shifts?

Lots to consider in your scenarios!

It's a HUGE gamble!



PS. Richo, you mention Falcon's best month last year was approx. 6200
This year if Commodore and Falcon were neck and neck (and Territory didn't exist) would we see higher sales from both, maybe 7000 or 7500 per month??? for bragging rights of Australia's top selling car?

IMO - YES!

I can guarantee one thing, it would have generated fierce rivalry between the 2 (like the good old days) and be alot more interesting to watch.

[RICHO]

It's a HUGE gamble!

Couldn't agree more!!

But after AU it's probably one that Ford needed to take. I hope it works.

Because as an FF I know a profitable Ford will result in a better Falcon. e.g. the new 6 speed auto that arrives later this year.

[Venom XR]

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND AND CLEARLY READ WHAT I SAID! :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash: :bash:

THE DISCUSSION IS ABOUT TERRITORY CANNIBALIZING FALCONS SALES. :mad:

Choose facts over opinions. The large car segment isn't selling as much as it used to. That's a fact. The SUV segment is experiencing growth. Another fact. Ford and Holden reacted to that, Ford got it right. Yes, it is cannibalising some sales, but it also cannibalises some factory capacity which can look like less sales as well. It's also cannibalised some Prado sales, some Pajero sales - even some Adventra sales! The net affect though, has been more vehicles per month sold than last year, as I said. More profit too. More profit to spend on the next gen Falcon to combat the next gen Commodore which is looking impressive so far, and will still produce the traditional showroom battle. Thankfully, the battle is no longer just that two large cars and their derivatives anymore.

To put a Holden spin on it, if the Monaro didn't exist, would people have bought a Commodore (SS or something) instead? Probably. So Monaro cannibalises Commodore sales - oh no! A waste on money then, according to the way you think. Except that the Monaro proved to be a great car and the value of the impression it makes for the brand is hard to put into $$.

Territory has dragged people who might never have bought a Commodore or a Falcon into their showrooms, and if the Territory doesn't quite suit, maybe they'll buy an Escape.

Think outside the box a bit. It's not hard.

[Lees]

Patrick I get what you said. But Ford investing the $500m of Territory money on the BA would not have equated to the same level of sales and Falcon sales would still be lagging behind Commodore, end result, same investment, less sales, less profit = a far worse outcome for Ford.

How do you know this?
Have you checked your crystal balls or something.
Who's to say that Falcon, would not be selling at the rate of Territory and Falcon combined now anyway?
With the same marketing for Territory (saturation) and 100% effort by Ford, it could have happened, but we will never know.
Now, the Commodore has it easy and is on cruise control in sales because Falcon is waivering. No competition. :booty:

[Patrick]

To put a Holden spin on it, if the Monaro didn't exist, would people have bought a Commodore (SS or something) instead? Probably. So Monaro cannibalises Commodore sales - oh no! A waste on money then, according to the way you think. Except that the Monaro proved to be a great car and the value of the impression it makes for the brand is hard to put into $$.

How does the Monaro compare with your comparison?

Most of it's volume is sold overseas and cost squat compared to Territory.
Monaro is already paid off, is Territory?
It was always going to be a niche model unlike Territory.
Your argument is irrelvant and I'm bored now! :bash:

[RICHO]

How do you know this?
Have you checked your crystal balls or something.
Who's to say that Falcon, would not be selling at the rate of Territory and Falcon combined now anyway?
With the same marketing for Territory (saturation) and 100% effort by Ford, it could have happened, but we will never know.
Now, the Commodore has it easy and is on cruise control in sales because Falcon is waivering. No competition. :booty:

Maths really....

Look at it this way

During 2004 local Commodore / Falcon sales
Holden 176000
Ford 133000

So a total market opportunity of 210,000 units that Holden / Ford compete for. Now 75% of this market is fleet sales

75% of 210000 = 157000

If you want to split that by make

Holden 75% x 176000 = 132000
Ford 75% x 133000 = 100000

Now reality is that Fleets do not swap makes often and typically supply deals will be for 2-4 years minimum. So it's safe to assume that Holdens Fleet sales are unlikely to be stolen by Ford and visa versa

Which means that for Ford to icrease Falcon sales it would need to take this from the 25% of private Holden sales or 44,000 units.

Do you really believe (especially as a Holden Fan) that Ford could realistically gain 16000 units from this figure. Or to put it another way could Ford win, 36% of private Commodore sales and convert them to Falcon drivers?? Even with 100% effort.

Because ultimately, this is what they would have had to achieve to deliver the same level of success that they are currently experiencing with Territory.

And remember Falcon isn't waivering. Quite simply less Falcons are being built having been replaced on the line by Territory. Same production volume but a different and more profitable mix of vehicles being produced.

As a couple have said we'll never know because Territory IS here. What is also clear is that if you look at the probabilities or likelihoods. Ford were MORE likely to sell an incremental 16000+ units with Territory than steal 16000 sales from Holden without it.

[Lees]

Maths really....

Look at it this way

During 2004 local Commodore / Falcon sales
Holden 176000
Ford 133000

So a total market opportunity of 210,000 units that Holden / Ford compete for. Now 75% of this market is fleet sales

75% of 210000 = 157000

If you want to split that by make

Holden 75% x 176000 = 132000
Ford 75% x 133000 = 100000

Now reality is that Fleets do not swap makes often and typically supply deals will be for 2-4 years minimum. So it's safe to assume that Holdens Fleet sales are unlikely to be stolen by Ford and visa versa

Which means that for Ford to icrease Falcon sales it would need to take this from the 25% of private Holden sales or 44,000 units.

Do you really believe (especially as a Holden Fan) that Ford could realistically gain 16000 units from this figure. Or to put it another way could Ford win, 36% of private Commodore sales and convert them to Falcon drivers?? Even with 100% effort.

Because ultimately, this is what they would have had to achieve to deliver the same level of success that they are currently experiencing with Territory.

And remember Falcon isn't waivering. Quite simply less Falcons are being built having been replaced on the line by Territory. Same production volume but a different and more profitable mix of vehicles being produced.

As a couple have said we'll never know because Territory IS here. What is also clear is that if you look at the probabilities or likelihoods. Ford were MORE likely to sell an incremental 16000+ units with Territory than steal 16000 sales from Holden without it.

Well it would be certainly interesting to know how many Falcons or other Fords have been traded in for a Territory.
Alot of Ford dealers and personnel are driving new Territory's who would have otherwise driven new Falcons for one.
I know a few on here have traded Falcon's for Territory's and GHIA351 has admitted he will be trading his Falcon for a Territory next.
Media and hype will get another percentage of buyers in as well.
I would really like to see the percentage of conquest sales to see the true picture.
Interesting! ;)

[RICHO]

Sorry...it's been over 18mths since I was in a position to source that kind of info and even then I couldn't (well...wouldn't) have posted it publicly.

I agree that conquest sales would be interesting but from a Ford perspectice they would care more that these trade ins were for another Ford. Which poses the question, if there was no Territory would those people on here who have traded Falcon's for Territory's still be driving something from the blue oval at all, or would they be in Prados, Pajeros, Klugers, Adventras etc.

Repeat business (keping your buyers loyal to your make) is a vital part of the automotive business. It's much easier to sell a car to someone who already drives your make and has enjoyed their car, than to cold sell. It shouldn't be a surprise that Toyota have the strongest brand loyalty of any make and they are Australias market leader.

[Patrick]

Sorry...it's been over 18mths since I was in a position to source that kind of info and even then I couldn't (well...wouldn't) have posted it publicly.

I agree that conquest sales would be interesting but from a Ford perspectice they would care more that these trade ins were for another Ford. Which poses the question, if there was no Territory would those people on here who have traded Falcon's for Territory's still be driving something from the blue oval at all, or would they be in Prados, Pajeros, Klugers, Adventras etc.

Repeat business (keping your buyers loyal to your make) is a vital part of the automotive business. It's much easier to sell a car to someone who already drives your make and has enjoyed their car, than to cold sell. It shouldn't be a surprise that Toyota have the strongest brand loyalty of any make and they are Australias market leader.

What about the Escape and Explorer?

Do you have the first 5 months of 2004 and 2005 sales figures for these 2 lines?
I would be interested to compare if these 2 have lost sales to Territory as well.

[Lees]

I agree that conquest sales would be interesting but from a Ford perspectice they would care more that these trade ins were for another Ford. Which poses the question, if there was no Territory would those people on here who have traded Falcon's for Territory's still be driving something from the blue oval at all, or would they be in Prados, Pajeros, Klugers, Adventras etc.

Yeah, very interested to know their opinion!

I bet if Ford sold a turd they would still buy it! :lol:

[clixanup]

What about the Escape and Explorer?

Escape is a re-badged Mazda Tribute.

Back in 1998, the Explorer was going to be the next big thing. I recall a friend of a friend who worked at Ford had this hush-hush info about it at the time. Well, they hardly broke sales records with that thing.

Anyhow, none of this is new. Holden tried to sell Suburban here at around the same time, which flopped spectacularly. So, both sides have had pot shots at the market over the past few years. I think Ford have finally managed to hit the mark with the Terribus.

[clixanup]

I bet if Ford sold a turd they would still buy it! :lol:

Hey, don't knock it - that's the way BMW operate.

[GameON]

Remember Commodore sales are down this year as well...

I know heaps of people who would NEVER own a Falcon but have brought or are considering Terris to replace their current Commodores - and it's generally accepted for a family car the territory is a far better bit of kit than your average Equipe - guess where those buyers will go next trade in? Dont tell me they wont even contemplate a Ford...

And at least the Ford platform will continue for a few more years - unlike the Commodore that's going to be thrown away half way through next year - to never recoup the expenditure on developing a 4x4 system for a dying platform

Add to this the general increase in profile the Territory has given Ford - first BA then the Terri vs the dismal failure of the Adventura - you sort of get the feeling one company is on the rise while the other is on the decline

[paulvdb]

Which poses the question, if there was no Territory would those people on here who have traded Falcon's for Territory's still be driving something from the blue oval at all, or would they be in Prados, Pajeros, Klugers, Adventras etc.

I get a laugh out of this thread every month when the VFacts data comes out. :lol: I find it really funny that a bunch of LS1 freaks goes nuts over a family wagon.

When I bought my Terri, I ended up shortlisting down to the Calais and the Terri as both are 6cyl RWD vehicles that could fit a family in reasonably serious comfort. Holden didn't have a Territory and Ford did so Ford won. If Ford didn't have the Territory then I wouldn't have spent more than 5 seconds in their dealership looking at the BA, which I didn't like. So the only reason that Holden didn't get a sale from me (apart from the greasy used car salesman at the dealership I visited) is that at the time they didn't have the best car for my needs.

So at least in this case the Terri sale came directly from Holden. There are a range of cars that miss out by a total of 2000 a month to make up Ford's sales. I have no doubt that Ford is losing BA sales to the Territory but that's only around 500-1000, plus about 100 Exploders and some Escapes. The rest are coming from a wide mix of cars.

[Lees]

Add to this the general increase in profile the Territory has given Ford - first BA then the Terri vs the dismal failure of the Adventura - you sort of get the feeling one company is on the rise while the other is on the decline

Decline? Holden on the decline? what planet do you live on?
Holden sales volume so far this year is up on last year, can't same the same for Ford this year who are down in volume! :lol: :booty:

Holden have more new cars and SUV's coming out over the next year than you can poke a stick at, which will keep sales ticking over nicely, thank you for asking. :D

[Ghia351]

This
http://www.chevrolet.com/silverado/ss/

Hope your not implying I drive a "bus"? Now that would be below the belt!
A pick-up truck is a very different appliance to a mini-bus!
No, I think you drive a truck and to be frank I thought of dropping my work VW T4 and getting a F250 and so when i asked I was wondering which of the Chevy models you own. Any particular reason that made you get one such as work needs, if you don't mind me asking, maybe a pm if that's ok?

[Patrick]

No, I think you drive a truck and to be frank I thought of dropping my work VW T4 and getting a F250 and so when i asked I was wondering which of the Chevy models you own. Any particular reason that made you get one such as work needs, if you don't mind me asking, maybe a pm if that's ok?

No worries, Ghia351, it's my work truck during the week towing dirt-bikes and weekend chariot as well, I love it.
It's my baby and I love showing it off.
Once you get a pick-up truck, it's hard to go back, I highly recommend you get that F250 mate, you won't regret it. :cool:
There should be more of them around.

[grahill]

spot on,i would'nt buy a ford.if i was'nt a commodore buyer i would have a v6 camry or mazda 6.

If you buy the Mazda, you're essentially buying Ford. Don't forget that Holden (GMH) and Ford own many other car manufacturers, globally!

.

[grahill]

Ford could have easily saved this money and put all their they efforts behind getting the BA Falcon matching or bettering the VZ Commodore's sales for alot less money.

If you don't understand that, then I give up! :booty: :bash:


..for what, still sell cars in Australia and NZ, only. With a more diverse product, now they can try and export, as Holden and Toyota have for quite a while. South Africa is their first real export since the Capri convertable in the 80's

.

[Patrick]

..for what, still sell cars in Australia and NZ, only. With a more diverse product, now they can try and export, as Holden and Toyota have for quite a while. South Africa is their first real export since the Capri convertable in the 80's

.

2000 are going to South Africa .......BIG DEAL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And I wouldn't mention that word "Capri" or you might put the mockers on it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[johnydep]

A very interesting discussion, which has me wanting to give my side of the story to it.

I am a Holden fan, been one for as long as I can remember and always owned a Holden, Peter Brock was my hero & I dragged a Holden.
However, when our first child was a due to come into the world we decided to buy something with safety, so a Volvo 740 Turbo Estate 7 seater was what we got.
After 7 years we started looking again, and the Adventra caught my eye, but I didn't want the V8 (even though I love 8's, long-term cost was a factor), so we waited. But Holden were mentioning 18 months, so we started looking at Jackaroo's, Prado's, Pajero's, Subaru's, even looked at a Falcon wagon but that would have been a major step backwards in passenger comfort, the Commodore wagon had a better chance. But there was nothing that really caught our fancy; we wanted a 7 seater with easy access & car like steering with a good turning circle.

Then I saw the Territory in the Wheels mag, showed my wife & she really liked the looks (wife is more into the European look and didn’t want a Ford or Holden), then saw one at David Jones on display. One day, while walking the dog, my wife went past a Ford dealership saw the Territory and got talking to a rep, before I know the whole family are down there test driving a RWD version & making plans to have a AWD overnight. This vehicle really impressed me, and that is saying something because I reckon Ford hasn’t built a decent car since the XW and maybe the XC.
I also swore to my wife that we would never buy a new car because of the massive depreciation, second hand would be the only way we would go.

Two weeks after the test drives, I signed for an AWD 7 seater Territory Ghia.

It is perfect for our family, has everything we need, drives like a car, handles better than a car and has plenty of power for overtaking & even a bit for the quick red/green light take off.
Heaps of mates have been impressed with it, and we were the first Territory owners at the kid’s primary school, the mums loved it and asked every question under the sun, now there are about a half a dozen every morning.

[VQST80]

ford recieved more government research money this year than holden by i think twice as much.
Whats up with that?

Is that like bottom of afl ladder gets next years 1st draft pick?

[iwanta5.4sc]

We need all the draft help we can get :-)
How much of the $500 million spent on the territory can/will be used on the next model falcon, ie AWD chassis available if needed etc..

[grahill]

2000 are going to South Africa .......BIG DEAL :lol:

And I wouldn't mention that word "Capri" or you might put the mockers on it :lol:

...ahh but small things start somewhere. Get your feelers out and you MAY be rewarded. This is a product that is diverse and will sell with proper marketing (something Ford aren't good at).

So if it isn't a good product, why Wheels car of the year, and almost every other car award for 2004 and most of 2005? Some of those awards also went to the BA Falcon.

Both Ford and Holden produce some mighty fine cars, it just seems to swing from one side to side all the time. What looks good usually sells, or what rubbish they can advertise the best, sells.

.

[all4ford]

We need all the draft help we can get :-)
How much of the $500 million spent on the territory can/will be used on the next model falcon, ie AWD chassis available if needed etc..
I think ESP and things like that will be used. Anyone for a Falcon with 40 storage compartments and extra cup holders?? lol.

[JEM]

:rolleyes:

The facts have been presented very well by a few in this thread already... seems Patrick and Lees continue to ignore them though.

The facts are, Ford have a blistering new product called Territory that has decimated it's direct competitor (forgot what it's called), it's leading it's class, while together with BA has dug Ford Oz out of a big hole.

The BA was the start of the turn around, the Territory is an extention of this success that will only help Ford's brand recognition and opportunities elsewhere.

Ford hasn't been this healthy in a long long time, so i can't see anything at all wrong with their business plan.

I look forward to the many Daewoo's badged as holdens... things aren't that rosey over at Holden at the moment as many might seem to think.

Patrick and Lees, i suggest you both get together one night and work collectively on a post for this thread, because alone, you guys just don't get it...! :booty:

[PepeLePew]

Men, I suggest we add the word 'Territory' to the filter list! Every single thread turns into a bunfight!!! :D

[RICHO]

What and take away one of the rare opportunities for us FF's to enjoy ourselves :D

I'm just waiting for the new 7 seat Daewoo Holden Rav 4 to arrive so I can read just how great lot's of storage, a higher ride position and Korean quality is.

I suspect that there's a few on here who will be ducking lightning bolts from the heavens.

But seriously most of the discussions are pretty good and sensible. It will get a whole lot more interesting once the daewoo arrives and we can get a head to head comparison of 2 more closely aligned vehicles. That 3.2 litre torque monster :stick: should be okay if they keep the weight below 1500kg's.

Of course if any reviews indicate it to be a better vehicle I reserve the right to claim it's not really a competitor of the Territory because....ummmm........DOH!

[johnydep]

That 3.2 litre torque monster :stick: should be okay if they keep the weight below 1500kg's.

Of course if any reviews indicate it to be a better vehicle I reserve the right to claim it's not really a competitor of the Territory because....ummmm........DOH!

They may go for the 3.6L engine, since they are both made here in Oz.

[Ghia351]

ford recieved more government research money this year than holden by i think twice as much.
Whats up with that?

Is that like bottom of afl ladder gets next years 1st draft pick?
If you don't ask you don't get..or maybe Ford had something the government thought worth providing a grant towards..maybe an engine plant refit for an alloy version of the I6, imagine that a "taxi pulling boat anchor" that is still praised by all the Ford biased press/media and potentially going all alloy...:stick: and don't go reading the current Wheels mag "top 15" comparo or some of you may have raised blood pressure issues....

[Patrick]

What and take away one of the rare opportunities for us FF's to enjoy ourselves :D

I'm just waiting for the new 7 seat Daewoo Holden Rav 4 to arrive so I can read just how great lot's of storage, a higher ride position and Korean quality is.

I suspect that there's a few on here who will be ducking lightning bolts from the heavens.

But seriously most of the discussions are pretty good and sensible. It will get a whole lot more interesting once the daewoo arrives and we can get a head to head comparison of 2 more closely aligned vehicles. That 3.2 litre torque monster :stick: should be okay if they keep the weight below 1500kg's.

Of course if any reviews indicate it to be a better vehicle I reserve the right to claim it's not really a competitor of the Territory because....ummmm........DOH!

Have to agree, I enjoy healthy discussions, even if we don't agree.

I think though we might all be surprised just how good the Korean products are getting, and the value equation will be the killer.

I look forward to round 2 next year ;)

[Venom XR]

I think though we might all be surprised just how good the Korean products are getting, and the value equation will be the killer.

Today's car guide seems to agree with that, commenting on the improvement in Hyundai's quality and refinement (in reviewing the new Sonata...)

For the masses, using Daewoo certainly won't do them harm in sales race. Ford sold a rebadged Kia as a Festiva and it sold like hot cakes - now they have a German engineered and built Fiesta, and despite it being a *much* better car it isn't selling in the same numbers.

I can see why Mooney doesn't care to bring the next Vectra over, for similar reasons - why try to flog a better, but more expensive car, when you can badge a cheaper product and sell more? It not quite just a re-badge exercise for Holden either, given they've had input into the Daewoo designs.

[RICHO]

The biggest driver of sales volume remains price. The Festiva sold by the truck load because it was less than $13k when new. Shifting price points means shifting volume expectations.

The biggest problem that I see for Holden is what price the charge for these new Korean sourced cars. Because prices at the lower end of the market do have flow on effects up the model chain.

For example bring in a daewoo sourced small car to replace the Astra Classic (currently cheap because it was a superceded model). A brand new car. Where do you price this?? To cheap and the value equation for the current model astra becomes hard to justify. i.e. Why would I pay $"X" more for a car from the same manufacturer with similar features??

And what COULD this do...substitution between Astra and the "Daewoo" alterative and subsequent deterioration in Astra volume or self cannbalisation much like Ford are currently experiencing with the Falcon / Territory. And lower price points are likely to filter through a range over time. Over an extended period ongoing low prices will change public perception from premium brand to bargain brand.

I.e. Ask consumers the question - Why did you buy your Holden? And the answer over time will increasingly become. "Price" rather than brand or image or perceptions of quality etc. Is that a dangerous position to be in?? Who knows, but it sure didn't help Daewoo when they were here in their own right and Kia are hardly setting the world on fire.

It's going to be really interesting to see those price points when these cars hit our shores.

[Ghia351]

Today's car guide seems to agree with that, commenting on the improvement in Hyundai's quality and refinement (in reviewing the new Sonata...)

For the masses, using Daewoo certainly won't do them harm in sales race. Ford sold a rebadged Kia as a Festiva and it sold like hot cakes - now they have a German engineered and built Fiesta, and despite it being a *much* better car it isn't selling in the same numbers.

I can see why Mooney doesn't care to bring the next Vectra over, for similar reasons - why try to flog a better, but more expensive car, when you can badge a cheaper product and sell more? It not quite just a re-badge exercise for Holden either, given they've had input into the Daewoo designs.

Two of the reasons put forward for the drop in Vectra sales according to today's papers were "Australians not taking to the European styling" and "sharp increase in price". The sales fall in proportion to price increase is a given however I can't see how the cars looks, which I might add look very classy imho, were a major factor. The Astra shares very close DNA and it hasn't suffered although how much is classic model vs new car I don't know.
You would hope looks weren't a factor at all as the VE will share a similar DNA, and I repeat I actually like the look so maybe employing the method of charging a premium price to impart an image of higher quality is not a successful method in Australia especially, unless your badge is BMW/Mercedes and them some people will buy any ugly thing they dish out. (BMW)

[Smitty]

Two of the reasons put forward for the drop in Vectra sales according to today's papers were "Australians not taking to the European styling" and "sharp increase in price". The sales fall in proportion to price increase is a given however I can't see how the cars looks, which I might add look very classy imho, were a major factor. ..snip... (BMW)

wasn't the top of the range Vectra $50k??
who would pay that when you can get a Calais (which is a vastly better car imo) for the same money
and
even the lower models have issues
you can get an Acclaim for $34k..which is pretty well equipped
and you will pay the same for a mid -range Vectra

me thinks Holden were a bit greedy when this model came along.
The old model sold well in its market and me thinks Holden said
woohoo....we can do the same sales and make more $ if we put the price
up ..and if people complain we can say its a Bimmer competitor

you can fool all the ppl some of the time and some of the ppl all the time.. :lol:

and FWIW...
imho, the current Vectra styling OUTSIDE is swish
but inside...geezers they are kidding...the INSIDE is a disgrace
reminds me of a 10 yo Ovlov....


cheers

[Danv8]

Have to agree, I enjoy healthy discussions, even if we don't agree.

I think though we might all be surprised just how good the Korean products are getting, and the value equation will be the killer.

I look forward to round 2 next year ;)


Actually I am surprised how well Hyundai has picked up their act. One of my family members has a 3 door Accent since new (2003) and has been an extreamly reliable A to B car. After having a ride in it yes it was no rocket but it didn't have 1 rattle or squeak. Same thing can't be said about my missus Mazda SP23.

[BossV8]

Quite an amusing thread and as JEM pointed out, factual info has been submitted only to be ignored by a couple of people's opinions. It was also pointed out that Ford spent $500millon on territory, but the technology that has gone into the terri would no doubt be going into future models too. The cost will be recouped and there has been quite substantial profits made the last 2 years as well. Who knows, maybe in the long run of a few models, $500mill may seem cheap to the amount of technology it has gained and covered if it is applied to a range of vehicles.

It's got me wondering, i sense some deja vu with Patrick and Lees like they have been posting similar things in other forums....lol
Maybe an IP check may reveal that! :lol:

[flappist]

I am a little confused at some of the statements and implications made earlier in this thread.

If I am correct in reading then Ford spent five hundred million AUSTRALIAN dollars employing AUSTRALIAN engineers and tradesmen designing and building an AUSTRALIAN vehicle using an AUSTRALIAN designed and built engine.

This is bad? Sorry I don't get your point.

The Territory has taken a percentage of it's sales from other Ford models. Is this like SV8 sales partially canabalised potential SS purchases? Or Holden 1 tonner stole a few Holden Ute sales?

The average new vehicle buyer is possibly slightly less one eyed than some of the above posters (fortunately two of them live in Sydney so they save money by sharing a lens each out of a new pair of sunglasses).
People buy a car that they think is good value and suits their needs. A motor vehicle, for most, is the second most expensive thing they own so it is usually quite a concidered choice. If a vehicle is not suitable it does not sell.
I personally am very proud that we have several manufacturers here and that they dominate the local market as well as export to many other places helping our balance of trade.

40 years ago my father ran the factory in Brisbane that produced every right hand drive Jeep in the world. It was shut down by the parent company in USA because the Aussie dollar in the late 60s, early 70s was so strong ($1.40 US) that our product was too expensive. In Shanghai the other weekend I saw and photographed a left hand drive Calais called a "Royalle".
AUSTRALIA is exporting cars to CHINA? They even make their own VWs there.

Go Ford OZ, GO Holden OZ, make and sell as much as you can.

Remember every Holden or Ford bought is NOT a fully imported vehicle that is keeping some other bastard in a job.

[Trackdaze]

Agree with Boss,

The territories front suspension has independant links on the double A arms. This will go into the new falcon. What the territory also mean for the falcon is that it allows ford to refocus the falcon. That is, the falcon doesn't have to be all things to all people. With the structure of sales at the moment the suggestion is that it will become more driver orientated.