Stop your whinging and do something

[One tonner]

I am seeing a lot of whinging and bitching about the Gen III motors and poor response/Help from dealerships and Holden in recent posts.
Now don’t get me wrong I am a sufferer also.
The way I see it instead of bitching on forums. How about doing something about it.
What can I do you say.
Heaps.
Your sitting at a computer aren’t you.
Well write a letter to your local member as I did.
The more people that have a voice the loader it is and something might be done.


Hows this.
This is a censored letter to my local member of parliament requesting the implementation of the lemon laws. It goes something like this.

The OHN (Insert your local member here)

Thank you for taking the time to read this letter. I have some major safety and defect concerns with a brand new vehicle I purchased on the (insert dealer and date).

I am a local businessperson and require a reliable safe vehicle as I can do up to 120km in a day servicing my clients.

Some major safety and mechanical issues with my (Insert your make and model) are listed below and the history to date. The car has been off the road for (insert time and dates.)

The problem I am having is not with the dealer ship as they are trying look after me. My concern is with General Motors Holden itself. Some of the issues are major safety concerns and I wonder how may accidents have been caused by brake and suspension faults in new cars as a contributing factor.

I would appreciate you forwarding this letter to the minister of consumer affairs in Victoria, (or your sate) The OHN Marsha Thompson and requesting anti lemon laws be put to the Victorian and then federal parliament.

In the United States they have anti lemon laws and if the car has too many faults it is replaced or money refunded. I have provided a web site address for your information. www.lemonlawamerica.com/state_laws/index.htm

Here is the full history of my vehicle to date as am aware. As you can see some of these defects are very concerning.


(Provide list of problems dates and defects.)
Give it a go; if it doesn’t help you it may help the next generation of new car owners.

End rant.

[ROGUE]

One problem...

We're not USA....

[Devil CV8]

One problem...

We're not USA....
true, but a similar lemon law will mean the manufacturers and dealers will have to lift their game or end up with cars being returned

[AGVTII350]

And what was the response from your local member????? Im sure he would be really concerned , with his free company car & fuel card........
Not having a go at you, im just assuming it would have fallen on deaf ears. The government make too much off "statutory charges" (changeover , stamduty etc) to really care about the consumer, they would only revert to putting the onus on the manufacturer.

[VooDoo]

One problem...

We're not USA....

One more problem... I have no problems with the dealers or Holden. Never have. :lol:

[C4B]

One more problem... I have no problems with the dealers or Holden. Never have. :lol:

I must admit, I'm in the same boat as you.

I've bought my last two vehicles from Armstrong Holden and they have never been anything short of excellent in their service and attitude.

[One tonner]

One more problem... I have no problems with the dealers or Holden. Never have. :lol:

Lucky You Voodoo. But one day you might.
Say you buy a nice new luxo barge and it’s a total lemon, and the dealer for some reason turns on you. Or the service manager you know so well leaves. Then what.

These laws may become your best friend. Especially if it your livelihood.

Not having a go Voodoo, I respect you opinions and you have contributed a great deal to this forum. :thumbsup:
But I think you are one of the very very lucky LS1 owners.
I know a lot has to do with how you approach the dealership and weather or not you expectations are realistic.

Letter was sent in October last year. No responce to date.

I wasn’t really expecting a response. Just though why whinge and bitch, may as well do something. It’s better than nothing.
As for not in the USA it’s an example of current laws in the US.
I didn’t want the Polly’s to have to think too much.
If they had some thing to look at hopefully they would run with it.
If one or two people send in a letter nothing will happen.
If they get 1500 letters something may.

[OzMystic]

I must admit, I'm in the same boat as you.

I've bought my last two vehicles from Armstrong Holden and they have never been anything short of excellent in their service and attitude.

My experience was a little different with my previous car, a VT Clubby. Yes the service and attitude was excellent. BUT!!! Took the car into get the front passanger seat stitching repaired under warranty. 1st mistake. The car was delivered with a scratched door sill, a gouged door trim and a gouged glove box lid. Yes they fell over themselves to fix and apoligize. 2nd mistake was to get the climate control fixed as the display would disappear and then come back on. Well this time it was a gouge in the dash panel. They replaced it the next day. I could go on with another three or so issues that needed attention under warranty and which ultimately caused some type of damage, but needless to say the car was never serviced there again. How can a vehicle be returned in a damaged condition. Are they idiots enough to think that people won't see the damage or complain? Yes..service and attitude excellent. But having some post pubescent pimply face apprentice who doesn't give a shite about anybodys property was not my thing. Why can't people take care of other peoples property?

[OzJavelin]

I am one of the "whingers" here. I basically found this forum because my car was having trouble and I needed advice .. thanks to everyone for the info provided. Before that I was probably a slightly above-average (everyone says that!) Holden LS1 owner; ie. all my current cars are V8s and I've owned about thirty cars including Chevs, Pontiacs, Dodges, Fords, Mopars, Jeeps and AMCs so I have some technical ability/knowledge, but wasn't really interested in working on this car. It was fun, reliable transport, and I was basically dumb, fat and happy. I think that there are a LOT of people driving around in LS1-powered Stateys, Calais, Berlinas and even SSs and SV8s like this that have problems, but because they can't hear the piston-slap over the CD player and because it doesn't quite empty the sump between oil changes they never know .. or care.

To re-iterate again, other than the dealers who told me that the noises coming from my car were "normal" (might be normal, but not "good" .. they ain't no forged pistons slapping, nor solid lifters rattling!), my experience with dealers to date has been good. Additionally, the car itself has also been good. My problem is the engine. We are hearing too many cases of problems with engines. People stand up and say "but I've got a good one!". Fine, but too many of us don't have a good one. Others say, "mine was fine after a rebuild", or "exchange engines great" .. nice, but why did your original engine have problems? Why couldn't it last 100,000km or 3years?

I don't think Holden can really do *anything* about this situation other than make it easier to either exchange more engines (ie. keep swapping them out until you find a good one), or get real specialists to rebuild engines to guarentee they will not fail. They are basically playing the numbers game that only a certain percentage of engines will fail (or people will complain about them). At the moment I think it's working out OK for them. I suppose the only real benefit of a "lemon law" in the case of LS1 is that you could possibly get you money back and find another car? But for people like me (purchased second-hand), you just hope and pray that you can unload it for a decent price ..

[VYBerlinaV8]

I don't think there's any harm writing to your local member. Like people here have said, if enough people write the issue will eventually get some profile. It doesn't take long to write, and if you write to a minister, I believe they are obliged to write back, even if it's just "thanks for your letter".

If everyone here who had a major problem wrote a letter, I reckon something would come of it. Especially if we convinced our unenlightened brothers on the Ford forum to do the same...

[VooDoo]

I have had a few warranty claims. Its not like the car has never had something fail.

My seat base started grinding. Dealer repleaced it and in the process scraped the trim. I complained about it only to findout the trim was already ordered and it wasall replacedon my next service. People make mistakes, its how they handle them that matters.

Ive also had 2 rebuilds for slap. Dealer handled it perfectly and car goes better than ever

As a consumer i have never been in a position that i couldnt get a satifactory solution to with ANY product. If i have a problem, i find someone who can help find a solution for it.

Lemon laws will help some ppl that havent been able to negotiate a solution. It doesnt FIX the problems. I also believe it will increase costs for manufacturers and actually lower quality. Manufaturers no longer need to ensure a higher standard, the few ppl that cant negotiate a solution gets a refund and are palmed off to someone else. That isnt a solution to the problems.

I know i've said it before but building a good relationship with your dealer is worth the time and effort. I didnt expect my car to be 100% perfect in every area. For what we pay i dont believe its possible. (500k cars arent perfect either). What I do expect is if i have an issue it will be looked at and a solution found. If the dealer makes a mistake/damages a car etc then he should stand up and admit the fault (at the time) and again, find a solution your happy with.


(Note: im not saying anyone here cant negotiate nor having a go at anyone in any way, just stating an opinion. Ignore me if you feel the need :) )

[One tonner]

Negotiations are important factor in any conflict and I agree with you Voodoo whole-heartedly.
I am in business and you don’t get far if you don’t negotiate through the problems.
Its not that I haven’t had a resolution to the problems with my Vehicle.
I felt that why the Hell should a new car I sent 40K plus on give me such grief and literally cost me thousands of dollars in lost earning.
If the lemon laws are not the solution then what is.
Should Holden charge more for their cars and get them right. Or should they Police their dealerships and parts manufactures and make them get it right.
Is their quality control up the creek, who knows?
I don’t expect every car to be completely perfect either and their will always be a percentage of problem cars.
Surly there has to be a better way than constantly having to “negotiate” with the dealer and customer service just to get you car fixed for a problems that really shouldn’t be happening in the first place.
Maybe that’s the solution better consumer relations and no more crap from the dealers, tell us how it is and the truth with out the excuses.

Voodoo thanks for the good debate. :D

[Thumper]

Iv'e stayed out of this discussion until now, but I will say this. I realise that there are some LS1's that do rattle etc, but a lot of them seem to be in city areas. I live in a typical 50,000 city, where the traffic flows ok, no excessive idling etc. Of the 20 or so LS1's I have had contact with there was only 1 that gave trouble, which was driven by a "nanna" driver.
Now don't get me wrong, it should still be ok with this, but Chevrolet designed the LS1 primarily with performance in mind so my policy has always to give it :burnout: right from new, and so far all of mine have been fine.
I will say, that Holden's rebuild policy seems to be flawed, as a Race Engine Builder, I was horrified to learn that they merely replace the pistons, and are said to reuse the rings. My research of the LS1 rattle, seems to point to a condition with the rings developing a flutter, this then causes a bore surface texture problem, which would then repeat the "slap" noise pretty quick.
IMO the only thing new pistons would solve is the excessive pin clearance noise.
I would therefore recommend members to insist on the rebuild to be performed by an engine shop (which happened to the one I knew of).
Apologies to those who have genuine concerns, firstly, and at the risk of getting :flame::flame::flame: are we as a forum being got at?
What I mean is, how do we really know that these engine oil use/noise occurrances are as common as this or are they sensationalised stories by someone with an axe to grind?
Has there been any official figures or surveys of dealerships done?

[RED R8]

Has a poll of rebuilt engines ever been done by ls1 forum members.

[moose]

must be my go now.


First, Any lemon law that gets introduced is not going to help people talk to their dealers, it will only make it worse. :box:

Second, In all the ls1's I have rebuilt, and seen rebuilt, i have never seen second hand rings go in. :eek:

:soap:
I'll get off for now

[BLK6T]

I agree with one tonner and see what hes trying to achieve, yes it may fall into deaf ears but if thousands start writing these letters the politicians will start using this as leverage for votes....its a win / win situation. I for one will support this. There is noting wrong with my current vehicle but I will send a letter neways for the vote. I will post this on XR6T forums and get the guys there to join, im sure they will.

[OzJavelin]

[ Yep, my understanding is that there WAS a poll done, but it appeared in accurate because only people who had problems voted. ]

Hmm .. driving like a "nanna" (a.k.a "embracing the nanna within"), we'll I suppose I can be accused of that 'cos I still have my Victorian license (speed camera heaven). My SV8 did 80,000km in under 2years, so I can't say it was "under-driven". It was used to tow a horsefloat at least once a week. It never used oil, but it did rattle .. and it got progressively worse. If GM-H are going to fit a supposed "performance" engine to Stateys, Calais, etc then they have to expect them to be "nanna'd". Some people still drive V8 because they are powerful, not performance engines. If the engine can't keep operating "correctly" for 100,000km (3years) being driven around town, then they shouldn't sell them. Stick to only selling V6s ..

I am glad that a lot of people have had no problems. Just count yourself lucky. Statistically, the more LS1-powered cars you buy the greater your chance of getting a dud. All I can say is that anyone who is unsympathetic to this plight .. I hope your luck holds up.

*** I just had a thought what Holden could do to fix most their problems. PUBLICLY state that piston-slap/gudgeon-pin noise is "normal" for these engines. PUBLICLY state that 2.5L/10,000km is normal oil consumption. If they think there is no real issue with this, write it down on official stationary and give it to anyone who asks about it. That would have made me happier. That way people can show it to anyone interested (eg. potential buyer) and tell them its all "normal" .... "but just in case I've left 4litres of oil in the boot for you to get home".

[Dover]

[ Yep, my understanding is that there WAS a poll done, but it appeared in accurate because only people who had problems voted. ]

Hmm .. driving like a "nanna" (a.k.a "embracing the nanna within"), we'll I suppose I can be accused of that 'cos I still have my Victorian license (speed camera heaven). My SV8 did 80,000km in under 2years, so I can't say it was "under-driven". It was used to tow a horsefloat at least once a week. It never used oil, but it did rattle .. and it got progressively worse. If GM-H are going to fit a supposed "performance" engine to Stateys, Calais, etc then they have to expect them to be "nanna'd". Some people still drive V8 because they are powerful, not performance engines. If the engine can't keep operating "correctly" for 100,000km (3years) being driven around town, then they shouldn't sell them. Stick to only selling V6s ..

I am glad that a lot of people have had no problems. Just count yourself lucky. Statistically, the more LS1-powered cars you buy the greater your chance of getting a dud. All I can say is that anyone who is unsympathetic to this plight .. I hope your luck holds up.

*** I just had a thought what Holden could do to fix most their problems. PUBLICLY state that piston-slap/gudgeon-pin noise is "normal" for these engines. PUBLICLY state that 2.5L/10,000km is normal oil consumption. If they think there is no real issue with this, write it down on official stationary and give it to anyone who asks about it. That would have made me happier. That way people can show it to anyone interested (eg. potential buyer) and tell them its all "normal" .... "but just in case I've left 4litres of oil in the boot for you to get home".



Oz, people generaly never say anthing against somthing they love nomatter how bad it is.. We are in a ls1 forum..
ben

[OzJavelin]

Oz, people generaly never say anthing against somthing they love nomatter how bad it is.. We are in a ls1 forum..
ben

That's a psychological condition call "cognitve dissonance"; basically you are trying to stablise internal discord by continually, outwardly supporting a bad decision you have made. Eventually you actually believe the decision was correct and you feel better .. :)

I'd *really* like to join in the conversations about modifying this and that .. circuit racing .. drag racing .. etc. But at the moment I'm just trying to get my SV8 back to basic transportation. Where I can be confident my wife can drive it to Melbourne and back without it emptying the sump.

I'm certain a lot of people on this Board are getting PO'd with myself and a few others who are being vocal about problems with our cars. It sounds like a lot of people just want to ignore these problems and just hope they don't happen to them. It sounds like a few people have blind faith in Holden and that all naysayers are just dirty Holden-haters out to upset them.

Oh, you are correct, I don't *love* my LS1. I enjoy driving it (even now), but I'm not a "brand" follower .. I've owned lots of cars and probably the only one I ever regret selling was my '68 Impala SS coupe ..

[moose]

"It never used oil, but it did rattle "

"Where I can be confident my wife can drive it to Melbourne and back without it emptying the sump."

Which is it oz? Or are you just using other people's arguements to justify your own? I'm sure there's a psychological term for that too.


"PUBLICLY state that piston-slap/gudgeon-pin noise is "normal" for these engines"

Holden have sent many letters saying that this is a "normal" noise, some people just won't listen. The dealers don't just tell you that for fun. They have had these motors in the US for longer than us, and there was very little drama with them, but it was found that aussie buyers tended to complain more. And yes, they have guidelines on what they consider "normal" oil usage.

"being vocal about problems"

Be as vocal as you want, but why don't you try talking to your dealer, you'll find the majority of happy customers are also happy with their dealer.


The phrase "you catch more flies with honey then with vinegar" comes to mind.

[Dover]

The way ive read oz's posts is he is on his 2nd motor 1st was noisey and the 2nd drinks oil correct me if im wrong.
Flys and honey?? All we want are our cars to run right, i was nice the first five issues it got me nowhere, now im near ten prolbems so i have no time for a droid at the service desk saying "sorry sir i dont know how that happend yours is the only one"

Ben

[OzJavelin]

My favourite topic so I'll keep annoying people by discussing it .. :)

"It never used oil, but it did rattle "
"Where I can be confident my wife can drive it to Melbourne and back without it emptying the sump." Which is it oz?
As indicated in an above post, I'm a member of that less exclusive club which has had rebuild/exhange of LS1 under warranty. First engine noisey, second oil gussler.

"PUBLICLY state that piston-slap/gudgeon-pin noise is "normal" for these engines" Holden have sent many letters saying that this is a "normal" noise, some people just won't listen. The dealers don't just tell you that for fun.
I queried the noise many times and never received a letter? I think it would be too much corporate embarrassment for them to write down these things.

"They have had these motors in the US for longer than us, and there was very little drama with them, but it was found that aussie buyers tended to complain more. .
After visiting the US and working with many Americans (IBM), I seriously doubt Aussies "complain" (aka. stand up for themselves) more than Americans. Americans on the whole are really nice people, but they don't let people walk over them .. if something is wrong, they will tell you in no uncertain terms. As for fewer number of problems, I think a quick Internet search might change that perspective ..

"being vocal about problems"
Be as vocal as you want, but why don't you try talking to your dealer, you'll find the majority of happy customers are also happy with their dealer.
The phrase "you catch more flies with honey then with vinegar" comes to mind.
This keeps getting lost, but I am happy with my "new" dealer .. but I have doubts to how much they can actually help. They took notice and replaced the original engine. The second engine is using oil. They have put me on an "emergency" consumption test, but really there isn't much they can do as an immediate fix is there? If this engine fails the consumption test the only thing they can do for me as a "favour" is get another engine. I don't really want a rebuilt engine, rebuilt again ..