Sergen GTS Supercharger

[sergen GTS]

Ken,

I called in to Grants workshop to have a look at my new toy,Congratulations on a great piece of work.The GTS should be renamed to the Harropmobile
We will be testing wednesday night hopefully we will achieve good gains.

Regards

[Ken]

Ken,

I called in to Grants workshop to have a look at my new toy,Congratulations on a great piece of work.The GTS should be renamed to the Harropmobile
We will be testing wednesday night hopefully we will achieve good gains.

Regards

Looking forward to hearing of the results ... more interested in how it & you feel about your investment than the "numbers".
Cheers. :D

[sergen GTS]

Ken,
We installed the supercharger as you know,Dick proceeded to tune and after changing the fuel system,fitting 65 injectors,we did some testing everthing seemed as though it was coming together.On the street the supercharger was howling ,with tyres screaming for traction.We head off for the track
put our first pass down with a disappointing 11.900 @ 111MPH.The car has run a 10.9 Pass with the best MPH of 124.5MPH. After some other tuning we went out again with a time slip of 11.6 @ 113MPH.After 4 attempts the best we could manage was a 11.5 @ 114MPH, Which roughly equates to a loss of 100HP,just by installing the supercharger.On the last run we lost the belt,and there is talk that the supercharger may not be making boost due to slippage,
at the track the howling was not present,is this becayse we have traction
and loading up causing the supercharger belt to slip?We are in a awkard position we have the big meet next week,and at this stage cannot qualify with the supercharger on board.Please offer any suggestions that can help.
I refuse to believe a supercharger will make you go slower.

Serge

[spiv]

Serge,

Sorry to hear about your dilemna. I'm sure that it will be resolved. Just out of interest was it the intercooled version and what compression are you running?
Cheers

[Ken]

Hi Serge ...

Now this has certainly got my attention! :shock:

There is something significantly wrong with this situation ... if the installation & tune are correct you MUST have a substaintial gain in power, and therefore a better time (assuming good traction).

We have NEVER had a belt come off/break/fail, nor have I heard of any other customer have a belt "failure". We have had some minor slippage reported (and observed) when using an "overdrive" (75mm) pulley if the tensioner is not replaced, but the system is not designed to use a 75mm pulley unless going to an 8PK drive belt.
What exactly was the "lost belt" ... slip, break, fall off? (I am assuming you are referring to the 6PK serpentine drive belt off the crank).

Without more definative data, I would only be guessing as to the cause.
When on the dyno, what was the kW/Nm, AFR, & boost traces like? If you can send me a log file or graph, I will be in a better position to offer some assistance. The boost-vs-RPM data will help diagnose the cause.

Keen to help ... but I need something to work with ...
Email me on ken@harrop.com.au as I can read my mail via my phone and will be able to respond quicker.

:confused:

[sergen GTS]

Hi Serge ...

Now this has certainly got my attention! :shock:

There is something significantly wrong with this situation ... if the installation & tune are correct you MUST have a substaintial gain in power, and therefore a better time (assuming good traction).

We have NEVER had a belt come off/break/fail, nor have I heard of any other customer have a belt "failure". We have had some minor slippage reported (and observed) when using an "overdrive" (75mm) pulley if the tensioner is not replaced, but the system is not designed to use a 75mm pulley unless going to an 8PK drive belt.
What exactly was the "lost belt" ... slip, break, fall off? (I am assuming you are referring to the 6PK serpentine drive belt off the crank).



Without more definative data, I would only be guessing as to the cause.
When on the dyno, what was the kW/Nm, AFR, & boost traces like? If you can send me a log file or graph, I will be in a better position to offer some assistance. The boost-vs-RPM data will help diagnose the cause.

Keen to help ... but I need something to work with ...
Email me on ken@harrop.com.au as I can read my mail via my phone and will be able to respond quicker.

:confused:

Ken,
The temperature going into the engine is 98degrees ,we are loosing boost as the revs build up.we are using the 75mm pulley with the serpentine belt.
according to Grant there is way to much heat created in the engine which accordingly makes it difficult to tune.Grant is under the impression that the supercharger cant keep up with the engine.Are we spinning it to hard?
Dick will hopefully answer you questions regarding the state of tune.
I really hope we can get this thing going the way it should.

P.S.Are you aware that our compression is 12:1?Fuel we are using is VP SV5

serge

[spiv]

Serge,

Sorry to hear about your dilemna. I'm sure that it will be resolved. Just out of interest was it the intercooled version and what compression are you running?
Cheers

You have answered my two questions. My two concerns were too much compression and "super heated" induction air which you have alluded to.

[Ken]

I had no idea it is 12:1 (assuming static) ... this is not really ideal for supercharging.
With IAT of 98 deg (assuming Celcius), there is something else going on. That is way over the top, and would indicate the intercooler not working ... or perhaps a cam with a big overlap. (I assume it is the intercooled version?).

Attempting to try & analyse this by "remote control keyboard" will not be productive. We will need to chat directly via phone with Grant, and we will need some dyno data.
:eek:

[sergen GTS]

You have answered my two questions. My two concerns were too much compression and "super heated" induction air which you have alluded to. Sorry i was going to answer you directly

[sergen GTS]

I had no idea it is 12:1 (assuming static) ... this is not really ideal for supercharging.
With IAT of 98 deg (assuming Celcius), there is something else going on. That is way over the top, and would indicate the intercooler not working ... or perhaps a cam with a big overlap. (I assume it is the intercooled version?).

Attempting to try & analyse this by "remote control keyboard" will not be productive. We will need to chat directly via phone with Grant, and we will need some dyno data.
:eek: Grant will be calling you tomorrow.

[spiv]

Sorry i was going to answer you directly


No probs :)

[Ken]

Hi Serge ...

I had a chat with Dick as I was not able to get in contact with Grant.

From what I understand, the engine is 12.2:1 comp ratio and is being reved to 7,200 rpm.

With 12.2:1 compression, it would be difficult to get much timing in it without running a high octane fuel ... possibly something like the Martini Racing 110. There are a few different products available, and there are others who can better advise on this.

The revs answers the high temp question ... the 75mm pulley should never have been fitted and consequently the supercharger is being over-reved by about 3000, which has a significant impact on charge temperature. Even with the standard pulley it is pushing the limit of it's efficentcy.

Please ask Grant to call me when he can.

Thanks ...

[RedVYIISS]

The Harrop SC wont provide enough flow for this engine will it? What sort of power was Sergen making before he fitted the S/C?

[sergen GTS]

The Harrop SC wont provide enough flow for this engine will it? What sort of power was Sergen making before he fitted the S/C? last time we dynoed it was 320rwkw

[keen]

Hey mate, sorry to read of your drama's , hope they get resolved. But got to comment on your time for that mph 11.5 @ 114 :eek: very impressive stuff that.All the best Keen

[Gareth@Willall]

Hey mate, sorry to read of your drama's , hope they get resolved. But got to comment on your time for that mph 11.5 @ 114 :eek: very impressive stuff that.All the best Keen

Yea a bolt on time minus 5 MPH. Sik.

Not trying to get involved but it seems a few people (more than just Harrop) who should know what they are doing simply ignored a few pretty basic facts about this combo and now Serge (who I do not know) is left with a bloody great big bill and a weak as piss car :rolleyes: No offence to you Serge!

Gareth

[vt2vx]

Yea a bolt on time minus 5 MPH. Sik.

Not trying to get involved but it seems a few people (more than just Harrop) who should know what they are doing simply ignored a few pretty basic facts about this combo and now Serge (who I do not know) is left with a bloody great big bill and a weak as piss car :rolleyes: No offence to you Serge!

Gareth

True, up to the engine builder to insure it adds up, tuner to realise the problem if not in this case being different to the builder/fitter.

it is pretty basic stuff.

depends who bought it and who told who what.

now it seems that Sam has some sence here, we read he is testing various Harrop combos on the engine dyno so he know what works first before testing on customer cars..that is sensible. Sam has always tested stuff for himself first.

love him or not he does it the right way. most engine tuning shops would.

[Criso]

I hope everything thing works out well for you's.
Cheers Criso

[Ken]

The Harrop SC wont provide enough flow for this engine will it? What sort of power was Sergen making before he fitted the S/C?

We have seen >375rwkw from an unopened LS1, using an "open" airbox and Martini 110 fuel. (Green auto Monaro at AME show).

[Ute 400]

Ken,
We installed the supercharger as you know,Dick proceeded to tune and after changing the fuel system,fitting 65 injectors,we did some testing everthing seemed as though it was coming together.On the street the supercharger was howling ,with tyres screaming for traction.We head off for the track
put our first pass down with a disappointing 11.900 @ 111MPH.The car has run a 10.9 Pass with the best MPH of 124.5MPH. After some other tuning we went out again with a time slip of 11.6 @ 113MPH.After 4 attempts the best we could manage was a 11.5 @ 114MPH, Which roughly equates to a loss of 100HP,just by installing the supercharger.On the last run we lost the belt,and there is talk that the supercharger may not be making boost due to slippage,
at the track the howling was not present,is this becayse we have traction
and loading up causing the supercharger belt to slip?We are in a awkard position we have the big meet next week,and at this stage cannot qualify with the supercharger on board.Please offer any suggestions that can help.
I refuse to believe a supercharger will make you go slower.

Serge
Hi mate i also have a harrop intercooled supercharged on my vu ss,couple months ago took it to eastern creek,running mickey thompson street radials and my best time was 12.030 with a116.90 mph with a1.76 60'.
Im taking it next time on slicks,with this mph and a good 60' i should get mid 11s on a unopened engine im happy.
I did have problems with belt slipeage it was the belt at the back that was slipping,gave it a bit of tight and boost didnt drop any more,and by the way i ran that time when belt was slipping,running 5 psi from 4000rpm.
Before water injection on Sam's dyno our temps were 68 degrees after few runs,never went over,and now with water injection itnever goes over 48 degrees.
I agree with Ken something isnt right,those temps of 98 degrees,is ingredible.
Im running 350 rwkw with a11.1 AFR, very safe and 10 psi of boost.
How did you go with fuel system?
I had to run 044 pump ,surge tank,v6 supercharged injecters,to gain that power,because fuel system in the utes are really bad,unlike the monaros wich have the best fuel system in the ls1's.
If have any questions let me know.
Dont worry mate,that blower is a excellent product with the right tune and setup.

[ProVK]

Isnt the intercooled supercharger kit only good for around the 350-360rwkw max, cannot see much value in putting it on a hi comp engine making 320rwkw, lots of cash for a max gain of 40kw if all worded well.

I would be looking at a Gen T 1000 or some other turbo kit and drop the comp back down to 9:1 and make insane power.

[Ken]

Isnt the intercooled supercharger kit only good for around the 350-360rwkw max, cannot see much value in putting it on a hi comp engine making 320rwkw, lots of cash for a max gain of 40kw if all worded well.
I would be looking at a Gen T 1000 or some other turbo kit and drop the comp back down to 9:1 and make insane power.

On pump gas, the LS112 maxes out at about 350rwkw on a 5.7ltr. CSV have done a couple with head/cam that consistantly pull ~340 on their dyno, and ~350 on most other dynos in "Shootout" mode.

However ... as mentioned earlier the potential on race fuel is a different story! :D

Compression ratio of 9:1 would be great ... perhaps Sam will do that as part of his testing ???
;)

[SchrgdVSV6]

I would be looking at a Gen T 1000 or some other turbo kit and drop the comp back down to 9:1 and make insane power.
Any form of forced induction with lower comp makes sense.
But Im curious why Sergen went on such a tangent considering he had a tough high comp NA motor :confused: . I wouldve gone with a 400ci+ bottom end if a broader torque band was required.

[sergen GTS]

Hi mate i also have a harrop intercooled supercharged on my vu ss,couple months ago took it to eastern creek,running mickey thompson street radials and my best time was 12.030 with a116.90 mph with a1.76 60'.
Im taking it next time on slicks,with this mph and a good 60' i should get mid 11s on a unopened engine im happy.
I did have problems with belt slipeage it was the belt at the back that was slipping,gave it a bit of tight and boost didnt drop any more,and by the way i ran that time when belt was slipping,running 5 psi from 4000rpm.
Before water injection on Sam's dyno our temps were 68 degrees after few runs,never went over,and now with water injection itnever goes over 48 degrees.
I agree with Ken something isnt right,those temps of 98 degrees,is ingredible.
Im running 350 rwkw with a11.1 AFR, very safe and 10 psi of boost.
How did you go with fuel system?
I had to run 044 pump ,surge tank,v6 supercharged injecters,to gain that power,because fuel system in the utes are really bad,unlike the monaros wich have the best fuel system in the ls1's.
If have any questions let me know.
Dont worry mate,that blower is a excellent product with the right tune and setup.
We are in the process of bulding a purpose blown motor with the right comp and 427 cube should be interesting.Grant added an extra fuel pump and went up to 65 injectors,the funny thing is that while we were testing on the road the suprcharger was screaming and expecting great things at the track,but when we got there it was like there was no supercharger the scream had gone.

[sergen GTS]

Any form of forced induction with lower comp makes sense.
But Im curious why Sergen went on such a tangent considering he had a tough high comp NA motor :confused: . I wouldve gone with a 400ci+ bottom end if a broader torque band was required.
Because the car ran a 10.95 and considering we have entered in super sedan
which puts us in the bottom of the field,we thought that by putting on a supercharger, would 1.Increase MPH 2.Maybe a 10.5 Elapsed time.Anyway
we have gone back to NA to run the meeting,we will test at tomorrow nights meet and hopefully have it sorted.Take one harrop item off and put on the other.Hear that Ken...........Im still with you ;) Remember im still harroporised

[hsv-105]

We are in the process of bulding a purpose blown motor with the right comp and 427 cube should be interesting.Grant added an extra fuel pump and went up to 65 injectors,the funny thing is that while we were testing on the road the suprcharger was screaming and expecting great things at the track,but when we got there it was like there was no supercharger the scream had gone.

Speaking from experience with a similar set up with a 408ci motor and 2.3 whipple I believe that you are wasting your time with anything less than a 3.3 blower.We had to spin the 2.3 that hard to maintain any kind of boost in the upper rev range that we were seeing 14psi at 2000rpm to achieve less than 8psi at 6000rpm.
With that kind of boost so early the car was near impossible to drive not to mention the huge intake temps created.
I learn't the hard way {thru the hip pocket} that these smaller PD blowers won't cut it on big cube engines and have pissed the blower off all together so please do your homework an speak to the right people before putting a PD blower on a 427 as I would hate to see you piss any more cash down the drain.
It will be a little more comp,bigger cam,8 throttlebodies,consistent power,consistent intake temps and the reliability that goes with a NA engine for this sucker in the future.

[Criso]

Speaking from experience with a similar set up with a 408ci motor and 2.3 whipple I believe that you are wasting your time with anything less than a 3.3 blower.We had to spin the 2.3 that hard to maintain any kind of boost in the upper rev range that we were seeing 14psi at 2000rpm to achieve less than 8psi at 6000rpm.
With that kind of boost so early the car was near impossible to drive not to mention the huge intake temps created.
I learn't the hard way {thru the hip pocket} that these smaller PD blowers won't cut it on big cube engines and have pissed the blower off all together so please do your homework an speak to the right people before putting a PD blower on a 427 as I would hate to see you piss any more cash down the drain.
It will be a little more comp,bigger cam,8 throttlebodies,consistent power,consistent intake temps and the reliability that goes with a NA engine for this sucker in the future.I think thats a pretty fair statement,All sounds 100% true to me.Goodluck guys.
Cheers Criso