Harrop Supercharger testing begins

[Justice R8]

Sam has got his hands on a Intercooled Harrop Supercharger. With all the recent comments being raised about all the for and against, Sam has decided he needs to do some testing of the Harrop Supercharger System and work out for himself the good and bad points of the complete Intercooled Supercharger System as sold by Harrop so he can help his customers make an informed decision on what road to take. Sam always likes to test things for himself instead of using customer cars for testing.

The testing will be done on the Engine Dyno with a completely standard GENIII fitted with Comp valve springs.

Tests will include
1. Standard Camshaft power run
2. Fit the Intercooled Harrop SC
3. Cam shaft change
4. Cam shaft change
5. Cam shaft change

Items that will be measured and reported at each of the above stages are
1. HP
2. Torque
3. Intake temps
4. Header size
5. Fuel type
6. Pulley sizes

These test will be done over the next couple of weeks and will result in the facts being posted here.

I have been able to convince Sam to allow those of us that wish to come and have a look at some real world Engine Dyno testing to do so if there is any interest from forum members. Sam has committed to do some testing on a Saturday which is probably the best day for people to come on down and have a look at the Harrop SC at full noise on the Engine Dyno and see what testing is all about. There will be plenty of time for questions and answers on all types of engine combinations that Sam has experience with.

Hopefully by the end of testing there will be some hard facts to come out of it all. It would be good if we could get a couple of cars for people to drive as well but we will see how Sam goes.

[GETUTED]

Then a....

single turbo test
twin turbo test

using the same parameters??? Or is that asking a bit much :p

[Animal]

Saturdays are good for me.

Will be excellent to watch the Harrop on full noise.

Did I hear you mention Pizza Daz :)

[Justice R8]

Then a....

single turbo test
twin turbo test

using the same parameters??? Or is that asking a bit much :p

You never know your luck. There is a huge cost involved in testing things but I do know that Sam wishes to test a few more things in the future including other forms of forced induction. Why Harrop first? It is a very simple system that appeals to the masses and he has had a number of enquiries about fitting and tuning them. Sam likes to make his own mind up on what is good and what is not before advising customers on which route he thinks is right for them.

[ProVK]

Would be great to see the same engine on a engine dyno with a few different forms of forced induction runnning the same boost levels. Something like a Harrop Intercooled PD, a Intercooled S Trim Vortech and a Gen T Turbo Kit, would settle all the bickering for good.

[jsttry]

Great idea Sam.....I can't wait to see the results and pro/cons. I hope its followed up by other tests in similar conditions.

[YIIR8]

You never know your luck. There is a huge cost involved in testing things but I do know that Sam wishes to test a few more things in the future including other forms of forced induction. Why Harrop first? It is a very simple system that appeals to the masses and he has had a number of enquiries about fitting and tuning them. Sam likes to make his own mind up on what is good and what is not before advising customers on which route he thinks is right for them.

Kudos to Sam, hopefully his testing can clear up all the bullsh!t thats been floating around on Tunas foru....ooops.....ls1 forums of late :D

Cheers..........D

[Martin_D]

Spot on YIIR8, and when they run 130+ mph at the track I will even take notice!

[vt2vx]

what time do the masses come?

[Justice R8]

Guys

I dont want to turn this into a mudslinginging thread. There are plenty of other threads for us all to have a bit of fun in.

The objective here is for Sam to give an opinion on the Harrop kit as he is getting a fair few enquires asking what it is like. The enquiries are more for a tough streeter than a dyno queen or strip monster. I guess people are starting to realise they use their cars 95% of the time on the road and 5% on the strip.

In saying that I will ask him the question of putting it in a car and giving it a run down the strip when the testing is finished.

PS
As far as PMs go I will answer most of them here now. This is the only testing that Sam has scheduled at the moment. As he recieves more enquiries for other packages he will look into the costs involved in purchasing kits and testing and seing if the market really wants it or not.

I will keep everyone informed on here

[KiWi]

im always open to informed information, look forward to the results darren

Simon

[Justice R8]

what time do the masses come?

Steve you will be the first to know.

Sam is planning on having the same setup on the Engine Dyno as well as having one in a car for all to drive if we can.

I will keep everyone updated on which day some testing will be done for us all to watch.

[Chris5.7ltr]

This should be good to see, count me in for this please Darren!

Getting a drive of a Harrop PD car should be good to compere agents my Vortech to.

[bigjoe]

Yeh! can't wait for the 2.3 twin rotor testing to start later this year. :p

Will the testing include any 383/408strokers?

[Justice R8]

Yeh! can't wait for the 2.3 twin rotor testing to start later this year. :p

Will the testing include any 383/408strokers?

Not at this point. Most enquiries are coming from people with stock cars that want some more usable power, so this is where the first batch of testing will be done. I think Sam will wait and see what results come out of this testing.

[ACT_Cross8]

...as well as having one in a car for all to drive if we can.



Sounds like you need an AWD to test it on. I know a bloke in Canberra with a test mule who might be interested... :deal: :thumbsup:

[NickS]

Give me a time and I'll be there ...

:thumbsup:

[lucas]

Party at Sam's place!

... but seriously, sounds like it would be an interesting day. Damn you all, just when I thought I'd spent the last on car mods :bawl:

[GETUTED]

Guys

I dont want to turn this into a mudslinginging thread. There are plenty of other threads for us all to have a bit of fun in.

The objective here is for Sam to give an opinion on the Harrop kit as he is getting a fair few enquires asking what it is like. The enquiries are more for a tough streeter than a dyno queen or strip monster. I guess people are starting to realise they use their cars 95% of the time on the road and 5% on the strip.

In saying that I will ask him the question of putting it in a car and giving it a run down the strip when the testing is finished.

PS
As far as PMs go I will answer most of them here now. This is the only testing that Sam has scheduled at the moment. As he recieves more enquiries for other packages he will look into the costs involved in purchasing kits and testing and seing if the market really wants it or not.

I will keep everyone informed on here

Shake the tin..maybe some of the sponsers may be interested in a "short term" donation of their kits. Cheap marketing really. Just an idea...

[NickS]

Party at Sam's place!

... but seriously, sounds like it would be an interesting day. Damn you all, just when I thought I'd spent the last on car mods :bawl:
Tell me about it, I thought the bonnet this week would be the end of it (for now) ...

Then I saw your brakes last weekend, hmmmm, got me thinking :doh:

[jsttry]

maybe I missed it but is this the 75 or 92mm throttle body version?

[Justice R8]

maybe I missed it but is this the 75 or 92mm throttle body version?

It is the 92mm. It will be tested with a couple of different pulleys as well.

[Chris5.7ltr]

It's not happening this weekend is it?

[sv285]

how did it all go? any news...

[Justice R8]

how did it all go? any news...

I believe the engine is on the Engine Dyno. I will keep you updated as the info comes in. I am currently away and will touch base with Sam on Friday. For those that have been down to Sams, you will have seen Sam currently has 6 strokers he is building as well as a Clevland, therefore is doing testing in between building them.

[Justice R8]

Well we have some initial test results in and it appears that with the right tuning these are a pretty nice bit of gear to compliment a standard LS1 and really come to life with a correctly selected camshaft. As always, it must all be accompanied with the right Tune. Having an understanding of how an engine works and what an engine needs is imperative in getting engine to perform well and obviously it is no different with this setup.

Having an Engine Dyno makes testing all that much easier as all of the variables are taken out such as drive train loss.

Here is the graphs from the first batch of testing. Note that each test is compared to a standard LS1 with a mafless tune. All test are completed using BP Ultimate and Tri y headers and Intercooling on the Harrop Supercharger.

Standard Mafless Vs 7psi

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183239.7psi%20%20no%20cam%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

[Justice R8]

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi Standard cam

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183438.10psi%20no%20cam%20%20bigger.BMP

[Justice R8]

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 1

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183630.10psi%20%20cam%201%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

[Justice R8]

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 2

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183829.10psi%20%20cam%202%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

[Justice R8]

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 3

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183040.10psi%20%20cam%203%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

[seldo]

Errr...Justice - any chance of a better scanning? :) Too hard for my old eyes...;)

[HRT.2FAST]

what cams are 1 to 3

Thanks Tim

[chops]

I think the specs of the cams are deliberately kept secret hence calling them "XY", "XZ", and "XXZ". You can't give everything away for free.

Nice results.

[Justice R8]

what cams are 1 to 3

Thanks Tim

Sorry Tim

At this point Sam is not prepared to release any of the cam specs. This is due to the fact that testing does cost a fair bit in time, money and especially equipment and is done for the benefit of Sams Customers. If Sam was to release all of the data, it would make it too easy for his competition as they do not have to endure any of the research and costs that are involved.

[Justice R8]

Hope this helps Seldo. My scanner is playing up at the moment but I thought I would still post these up for all to see.

Standard Mafless Vs 7psi standard cam
http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183239.7psi%20%20no%20cam%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi Standard cam
http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183438.10psi%20no%20cam%20%20bigger.BMP

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 1
http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183630.10psi%20%20cam%201%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 2
http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183829.10psi%20%20cam%202%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 3
http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183040.10psi%20%20cam%203%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

[Justice R8]

missed the img tags

Standard Mafless Vs 10psi cam 2

http://photothingo.com/users/1046/20050915183829.10psi%20%20cam%202%20%20bigger%20pi c.BMP

Could a mod please fix these by deleting the little graphs and inserting the larger ones in their place

[SchrgdVSV6]

Cam 3 seems to give more top end with no loss anywhere else... Nice :)

Any word on the inlet temps during the runs?

[Justice R8]

Cam 3 seems to give more top end with no loss anywhere else... Nice :)

Any word on the inlet temps during the runs?

As this is an independent test inlet temps WILL be posted . They were not as high as Sam had expected.

There are a lot of details already collected and more to testing to be done, therefore I will continue to post results as they come to hand.

[Justice R8]

Spot on YIIR8, and when they run 130+ mph at the track I will even take notice!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The engine will be bolted into Sams daily driver VXSS and given a run down the track and see what it is capable of. Even though most enquiries are for a tough streeter combo, Sam is curious himself as to what this combo will run down the qtr.

Sam is looking for what sort of ET this combo has more so than just what MPH it runs. Consistant and good ET's are what win races. MPH is very important but he feels it is important to have usable power where you need it to run a good ET.

[Phonsy@GM Motorsport]

Top work guys.
Good to see some real world testing on a engine dyno.
Top marks to Sam for trying this package out on his own car before he recommends it to others.

Plesantly suprised how it responds to a camshaft change.

Cheers
Phonsy

[seldo]

Hope this helps Seldo. My scanner is playing up at the moment but I thought I would still post these up for all to see.

Thanks mate...now i know what you are talking about...:thumbsup:

[seldo]

................Sam is looking for what sort of ET this combo has more so than just what MPH it runs. Consistant and good ET's are what win races. MPH is very important but he feels it is important to have usable power where you need it to run a good ET.
Ain't that the truth! Thanks Sam for this exercise...good factual stuff...:)

[Martin_D]

Isnt ET the measure of the chassis setup, and MPH the measure of the power/torque balance? If Sam is dropping it in the roadie with that sort of steam then 130-135mph should be a walk in, regardless of the time card, or tyres used, and that is clearly what counts

[bigjoe]

Isnt ET the measure of the chassis setup, and MPH the measure of the power/torque balance? If Sam is dropping it in the roadie with that sort of steam then 130-135mph should be a walk in, regardless of the time card, or tyres used, and that is clearly what counts

I could be wrong but Torque gives u et and horse power = MPH.

joe

[vt2vx]

std cam at 10psi make the most power but the cams make more TQ


nice results when set up well

[APE346]

Good to see testing like this, cant wait for track times/mph..... ;)

[Martin_D]

I could be wrong but Torque gives u et and horse power = MPH.
joe

You could be.
Power = Torque x RPM
So if you make good torque across a wide rpm range then you will have great mph. If you want good ET then tyres and setup are crucial, hence stock bolt on cars that run the same ET as your race car 8tb H/C ute :cool:

[bigjoe]

You could be.
Power = Torque x RPM
So if you make good torque across a wide rpm range then you will have great mph. If you want good ET then tyres and setup are crucial, hence stock bolt on cars that run the same ET as your race car 8tb H/C ute :cool:

So Martin i guess that my combo is a bad as your 11.8 Turbo setup :lol: Just remenber that my combo wasn't a race car and at 4040 pounds with me in it, I thought it was a good result.

[Martin_D]

No Joe, I said that power and torque are reflected in mph, and setup in ET
Dont hijack the thread mate :cool:

[Justice R8]

Isnt ET the measure of the chassis setup, and MPH the measure of the power/torque balance? If Sam is dropping it in the roadie with that sort of steam then 130-135mph should be a walk in, regardless of the time card, or tyres used, and that is clearly what counts

I am no Drag racing expert but I would think that your pretty close to the money there Tuna according to text books and Google that I have read, which begs the question why so many people put so much power into cars that cant utilize it. It great for putting on a smoke show or winning a dyno comp, but if you cant get it down a prepped track on slicks or ET radials what chance do you have on the street on street rubber.

A great example is your Turbo drift car and My GF GTO. Mine has a lot more power than your Clubby. Mine 500rwkw vs your 360rwkw. Neither car has run better than a 12 that I know of. Neither car has a great mph, mine 126mph on street tyres yours 121 or 123 on Drag radials at heathcote that I saw. Spinning wheels didnt help neither of us. Both have power delivery at opposite ends. The vortech really comes on at 5000rpm, the turbo from down low, yet both cars are nice to drive on the street as long as you dont try and slam the throttle. After riding in yours, I feel yours actually gets the power down better than mine when you hit the throttle. I think the reason for this is the fact that you had less power dialed into your setup when I rode in it than in mine.

Which comes back to the question. Is mph really an indication of the power of the engine or does the setup of the vehicle and tyre choice really contribute to the MPH as well. If it is setup that gives us ET that would explain our bad ET as yours is a drift car and mine a road car, but if MPH is an indication of power, help me understand what gives us our bad MPH considering we know the engines make a lot of power and torque.

Mine has nearly as much power at the wheels than Crisos has at the flywheel yet I am not even close to him on MPH or ET so on that real world comparison I would have to assume that the slicks and setup of Crisos is what is helping him along and crisos is an Auto (and a little less weight).

So I guess that there may be a bit of a mystery here that Google and text books dont factor in and that a real world situation does.

I guess we will all have to wait and see what the Harrop kit does in Sams daily driver.

[vt2vx]

std cam at 10psi make the most power but the cams make more TQ


nice results when set up well

i think this is incorrect i read the number at the bottom looked like 607hp but i think its 507hp

[Justice R8]

std cam at 10psi make the most power but the cams make more TQ


nice results when set up well

I think you mean cam 3. Note there is different scaling on the graphs

[seldo]

I am no Drag racing expert but I would think that your pretty close to the money there Tuna according to text books and Google that I have read, which begs the question why so many people put so much power into cars that cant utilize it. It great for putting on a smoke show or winning a dyno comp, but if you cant get it down a prepped track on slicks or ET radials what chance do you have on the street on street rubber.............
snip
.
Thanks Justice - I wanted to ask all the same questions but didn't want to hijack your thread.
Maybe someone can start a whole new thread about this as this 1/4 mile stuff is all a black art to me...:) I'd have thought that a quicker et should mean faster trap, but I know that's not the case for some reason...

[JohnW]

Good numbers Justice. Looking forward to the track results.

[gameover]

MPH is only a good indication of power if the initial loss of traction was over a very short distance at the start of the pass. ie. you fried the tyres at the start and then had decent traction for the rest of the pass. If you are spinning 1/2 the way up the track you will still show a crappy MPH regardless of how much power you have.

Chris...

PS. great results!

[Justice R8]

Thanks Justice - I wanted to ask all the same questions but didn't want to hijack your thread.
Maybe someone can start a whole new thread about this as this 1/4 mile stuff is all a black art to me...:) I'd have thought that a quicker et should mean faster trap, but I know that's not the case for some reason...

No worries Seldo. I have probably hijacked a few in my time. Everything I have seen has been better 60ft gives a lot better ET. I guess the Harrop testing is a learning curve for everyone, as we have all heard different things about it. Thats why it has been good that Sam is doing an independent test and it is not just a manufacturers test so we all get to know what is going on warts and all. This will allow his customers to make an informed decision based on facts not just on hearsay. I must say as a consumer I still get worried about pushing so much power through a stock bottom end, but it looks like I am being proven wrong with both the Turbos and the Harrop. I guess it just shows that its all about getting the right tuning as is being demonstrated with cars around the country at the moment.

Expectations of the track times based on Sams previous experience with true FWHP and Drag racing should see a track time of around high 10's low 11's @125 to 127mph.

The Drag stuff is a mystery to me as well. This is were Tuna can add his knowledge and learnings from the stuff he has been doing. Tuna can often have a lot of good things to add but can be misunderstood sometimes.

[seldo]

............................
The Drag stuff is a mystery to me as well. This is were Tuna can add his knowledge and learnings from the stuff he has been doing.Tuna can often have a lot of good things to add...
That'd be great - I'm all ears...


.... but can be misunderstood sometimes.
:lol: :rofl: :rofl:

[HazzaHSV]

Great work Sam and Darren for this kind of blower testing. Gives us budget stricken blokes a chance to compare packages based on real world professional testing instead of basing it on claims and advertising brochures and possibly finding ourselves unhappy and broke.

:thumbsup:

[Animal]

Saw the setup in the flesh today :)

Awesome setup - the Harrop crew deserve a design award for this.

The way the intercooloer is set up is very impressive, it actually sits between the base of the blower and the inlet ports on the cylinder heads.

The thing that impressed me the most was how quickly things happen. It climbs through the revs quite quickly. As much as I am looking fowards to taking Sam's car for a road test, I don't beleive it is for the feint hearted :D

In the famous words of an overweight guy named Kev - ' I'm excited '

Ken

[YIIR8]

Crawled over and under the bonnet of a car equipped with the Harrop this arvo, I must say that the set-up was very very neat, looked OEM. ;)

[Uncle Tone]

Crawled over and under the bonnet of a car equipped with the Harrop this arvo, I must say that the set-up was very very neat, looked OEM. ;)

Yep, it certainly looks the goods. Very neat install, between the valleys, yet fits under the bonnet :cool:

The Harrop equipped car that I had a go in had head and cam work, I think a 222/224.......and my God did it go.......:burnout:

[Martin_D]

This is were Tuna can add his knowledge and learnings from the stuff he has been doing.

Its pretty easy these days. You either run slicks/runners, or MT ET radials, and with the horsepower being displayed on the engine dyno you wont have any problem with hookup or true mph vs horsepower indication. Take Redlines car for example, he was able to display 131mph on 235/15 radials and a stock bottom end.

[Animal]

The test engine is now off the dyno.

Here are a few post testing pics

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/Animal/Sams%20Performance/Sam's%20Harrop%20SC%2001%20960x720.jpg

.

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/Animal/Sams%20Performance/Sam's%20Harrop%20SC%2002%20960x720.jpg

.

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/Animal/Sams%20Performance/Sam's%20Harrop%20SC%2003%20960x720.jpg

Personally - I love the bloody thing, it gives me a woody everytime I'm near it :D

Ken

[VooDoo]

Nice, I see some ported heads and ARP bolts too.

I thought this was just going to be cam's? (ill go re-read the thread, might have missed the bit where he said heads)

[Chris5.7ltr]

How friggen sexy would that blower look polished up, can't believe no one has done it yet.

[Justice R8]

Nice, I see some ported heads and ARP bolts too.

I thought this was just going to be cam's? (ill go re-read the thread, might have missed the bit where he said heads)

Well spotted there Voodoo. The engine pictured above does have a set of heads on it and a set of headbolts.

I did not say that the Harrop SC was only ever going to be tested on a stocker. The only detailed results that will be published at the moment are the tests with the stocker and Cam only (NO HEADS). This engine will be run on the engine dyno at a date to be confirmed that will be open to the public to inspect. It would be good if Sam could do a cam change on the day and let everyone have a walk through and see that the engine is a true stocker. As Martin pointed out in Qtr pounders (Street Com) Not all stockers are stockers. Sam has nothing to hide. He just wants to find true answers to ensure that he has done enough testing on his own equipment. This will allow him to give his customers all the details of this sytem. That then allows his customers to make an informed decision on what is right for them, not just what they read on the internet.

A decision has not been made on whether the other test results will be posted on here or saved for any magazine articles that Sam may be asked to complete (They will be published somewhere though). The Harrop SC has been tried on 3 different engines on the Engine Dyno.
There are no doubts that once all testing is completed we will all have a lot better understanding of what the Harrop LS112 Supercharger will and wont do. Remember this is a totally independent test. So you will get all the for's and againsts for this system, not just all the warm and fuzzy bits.

[Animal]

The Harrop SC has been tried on 3 different engines on the Engine Dyno

And he spent a heap of hours doing it all too, well after midnight on some nights.

What everyone must realize is the amount of time it actually takes to set up the engine on the dyno, conduct the test, swap a cam, redo a test, swap a cam, redo a test. Whilst time on the engine dyno was set aside for this testing, it made sense to test it on some different engine options.

How many shops actually have the facility and the stock in hand to conduct a test like this ?

The testing of different engine configurations was Sam's decision. Considering the variety of engines that pass through his workshop it would make sense to do it properly.

Well to some of us it would :rolleyes:

[keen]

What the go with some results Darren? :cool:

[clubbie]

WOW...impressive tq curve right off the bat at 2000rpm.

Couple of questions.

1.) Are injectors std (didnt think they would handle 600hp) or do uprated ones come with the kit.
2.) total cost of kit + Tune + 2 bar + labour + anything else (ballpark $$$$)
3.) Do you accept credit card payment and do you have any suggestions on how i can sleep at night without the wife killing me.

Very interesting.

BTW anybody know whats the diff between this and the PWR setup (both seem to use the same S/C)

[OLS108]

WOW...impressive tq curve right off the bat at 2000rpm.

Couple of questions.

1.) Are injectors std (didnt think they would handle 600hp) or do uprated ones come with the kit.
2.) total cost of kit + Tune + 2 bar + labour + anything else (ballpark $$$$)
3.) Do you accept credit card payment and do you have any suggestions on how i can sleep at night without the wife killing me.

Very interesting.

BTW anybody know whats the diff between this and the PWR setup (both seem to use the same S/C)
i was going to ask all of those Questions well except the Credit card one ( my credit card is already bouncing off the Limiter :lol: )

[Steve'sR8]

Hi guys,
has Sam had a chance to run this setup down the 1/4 yet?
Very informative thread for us noobs.
Cheers, Steve.

[datman55]

Is the engine back on the engine dyno or in the car?

If it's still on the engine Dyno, I'd be interested in Supplying Sam with a Boost cooler water injection kit to test on this set-up.

We have one of our stage 2 kits fitted already to a Harrop Supercharged LS1 and have seen results on the chassis dyno, but it would be good to see real numbers on the engine dyno.

Mark.

[Animal]

Hi Mark,

We fitted the test motor into Sam's car learly ast week for some road testing.
We expect to have Elias run it down the strip in the near future.

The engine dyno has a que of engines to be run, which will take us untill early next year at least. The time was specially set aside for the testing the Harrop gear on the engine dyno. ( which I personally enjoyed seeing :) )

Good news is that one of the motors will have a Harrop blower fitted to it :)

Give Mark a call at Sam's on 9772 3105, and let him know what you want us to do. Will be great to test out one of your stage 2 kits, I am a fan of water injection myself.

Ken

[the big fist]

Has there been any new news on this blower setup ?
times? inlet temps ?
etc ?

[HRT.2FAST]

Personally - I love the bloody thing, it gives me a woody everytime I'm near it :D

Ken

i must say the sound of a p.d blower is second to none and it would have to be the thing i miss the most :drool:after selling mine:doh:

[VooDoo]

Jump in a GenT equipped car. That sounds pretty damn good too :D