Motor VE spy shots.

[Bane]

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21184

[seldo]

Sheesh! I reckon they've pulled the wrong rein with this one.....that colour-scheme will never sell.....:lol:

[Goggles]

Sheesh! I reckon they've pulled the wrong rein with this one.....that colour-scheme will never sell.....:lol:

well, at least it would make colour choice easier, you can pick 2 of your favourites.

I like the fact that the car has VY SS wheels and not VZ SS wheels....

as for the small tailights, and large gaps between them and the panels....well build quality has obviously gone backwards.....

[NuffNuff]

boot lid on these things are getting smaller and smaller O_O

[cwhast]

anyone noticed it has those air vent things on the front kick panels?

[HFV6]

It is clear this is definitely the VE commodore, does it have similarities with the other spyshots seen earlier of VE commodores in the US? As in given these spyshots, were the previous spy shots the VE at all?

[COSMOS]

anyone noticed it has those air vent things on the front kick panels?

look at the indicator repeaters off the tigra and i think also the HSV SV6000 for a clue as to how the VE will be styled

[Drizt]

Anyone else annoyed they will be using Macpherson struts ?

Spy shots don't give much away except for a huge waste line... rear reminds me a little of mitsu 380

[cwhast]

waste line or waist line? lol
also, a little off topic, has anyone also noticed the bonnet lines shared between the S3X and TT36?

[team illucid]

" The pipes are quad for the 6.0 litre V8, single for the V6" - love that line - LS2 ?

[RICHO]

Front end looks very BA

[chevypower]

The VY was the Magnadoore, so the VE is the 380Doore?

[Goggles]

" The pipes are quad for the 6.0 litre V8, single for the V6" - love that line - LS2 ?

must be, unless there is another GM 6.0L V8 somewhere in the world that we don't know about.

anyway, off to the motorshow tomorrow morning to have a look at the Efijy, and get a few ideas for the VE SS

[vzsv6]

" The pipes are quad for the 6.0 litre V8, single for the V6" - love that line - LS2 ?

It actually says "The quad pipes are for the 6.0 litre V8, the dual for the SV6 and the single for the base "atmo" V6. Pretty much confirms there will be a turbo version offered!

[chevypower]

there was a 6 litre (LS1) "Vortec" V8 with Iron block for the 1999-2005 Silverado, Suburban, Yukon XL, Denali and Escalade - i think that will be increased to 6.2 next year? I think you will find it will be the LS2... but for marketing, they might give HSV rights to use the name LS2 and Holden might call it Gen 4? as with the Gen III V8 and LS1 for HSV - same engine though

[Danv8]

[QUOTE=Drizt]Anyone else annoyed they will be using Macpherson struts ?

Nup it does not annoy me one way or another its macky struts are a proven design why mess with it?

[cwhast]

nah doesnt really bother me either.

[O5BRKY]

Front end looks very BA
And the BA looks very VY! :D

[RICHO]

And the BA looks very VY! :D

Yep.....makes me wonder whether Holden and Ford shouldn'y just merge.

Holden can do the exterior appearance upgrades (which they do well), and Ford can do the less important bits from a marketing perspective, suspension, gearboxes etc etc and both do the engines...V8's from Holden, turbo 6's and LPG from Ford.....

If ONLY I could take the best of both and create my ideal Aussie car!!

[jnicholson]

Front end looks very BA

Just wait till you see the real thing! :(


JN

[O5BRKY]

Yep.....makes me wonder whether Holden and Ford shouldn'y just merge.

Holden can do the exterior appearance upgrades (which they do well), and Ford can do the less important bits from a marketing perspective, suspension, gearboxes etc etc and both do the engines...V8's from Holden, turbo 6's and LPG from Ford.....

If ONLY I could take the best of both and create my ideal Aussie car!!
Yeah, Agree there!

[vzsv6]

Front end looks very BA

So what are you implying, that Holden have copied the BA?? Unless you have forgotten, in the design of the ba ford blatantly used Holden and Audi styling cues. There was a thread on here comparing a ba to a vx. Some of the lines and creases look almost identical. There is an Audi model whose headlights look strikingly similar to the BA's... I wonder where ford got those from?? Don't even get me started on the BA and VT tail light similarities.

[RICHO]

So what are you implying, that Holden have copied the BA?? Unless you have forgotten, in the design of the ba ford blatantly used Holden and Audi styling cues. There was a thread on here comparing a ba to a vx. Some of the lines and creases look almost identical. There is an Audi model whose headlights look strikingly similar to the BA's... I wonder where ford got those from?? Don't even get me started on the BA and VT tail light similarities.

Okay so my initial response is...WHO CARES? People will see all sorts of design hints in the VE and link them to all sorts of cars. Holden fans will see BMW and Audi, Ford Fans will see Falcon and Magna and at the end of the day, if the thing looks good it doesn't matter at al.

So No I'm not implying that Holden have copied the BA, I am simply saying that in that spy shot, the treatment aroudn the headlights and bonnet line held a hint of the BA. Didn't mention copying at all, just a personal observation.

If I hadn't had lunch I'd be tempted to eat that rather large chip on your shoulder.

[seldo]

...............So No I'm not implying that Holden have copied the BA, I am simply saying that in that spy shot, the treatment aroudn the headlights and bonnet line held a hint of the BA.......
I think you'll find that a lot of that is because the spied car doesn't yet have the grille and maybe headlight bezels yet. I'd reckon when it's seen in final form there will be no mistaking that it's a Holden.

[RICHO]

I think you're right, if the front end comes out anything like the Torana concepts front end it will be an impressive looking unit!! Certainly better than the 300C which is one ugly brick of a thing and a step up from BA and Magna.

The only question that we'll all have to wait for is what will it weigh??

[seldo]

............
The only question that we'll all have to wait for is what will it weigh??
Whilst they will have been working very hard to keep weight down, I'd tip an increase of maybe 60-80kg

[Wezza]

I've got no problems with Holden using MacPherson struts, it's nearly the same setup as BMW uses. The article also mentions the rear suspension is maybe more superior to Mercedes Benz setup!

On the headlights, i'm sure you will find that the headlights on those vehicles aren't actually the ones that will be in the production car. They are actually headlights out of a VZ Commodore just stuck in there.

[BA$TAD]

Okay so my initial response is...WHO CARES? People will see all sorts of design hints in the VE and link them to all sorts of cars. Holden fans will see BMW and Audi, Ford Fans will see Falcon and Magna and at the end of the day, if the thing looks good it doesn't matter at al.

So No I'm not implying that Holden have copied the BA, I am simply saying that in that spy shot, the treatment aroudn the headlights and bonnet line held a hint of the BA. Didn't mention copying at all, just a personal observation.

If I hadn't had lunch I'd be tempted to eat that rather large chip on your shoulder.
agree 100%
While what i have seen of the VE pics i am impressed with the latest ones here do show quite a bit of the BA in the front area. Can't wait to see it unveiled. It is a car that's launch is almost as important/exciting as the BA one.

[Marco]

I definitely agree that it looks a lot like the 380 from some angles...

It does look as though they've avoided making the window sill line too high, though. I was worried they would do what Opel did with the current Vectra and have a really high window line, with appalling visibility.

(Actually, I hope Holden didn't get too many ideas from the Vectra for the VE at all...)

[mmciau]

I've got no problems with Holden using MacPherson struts, it's nearly the same setup as BMW uses. The article also mentions the rear suspension is maybe more superior to Mercedes Benz setup!

...

Can't understand the resistance to the McPherson Strut - it is simple and it works!

Mike

[Nobby]

I followed the link and went over to gm insider news and decided to weigh in on the 'big debate' that are raging over the mobile zebra from downunder.

I think you'll find I was firm but fair with 'casket demon'.

[BadMac]

I'm in the market, was tending towards waiting for the VE, wavering towards getting the SSZ then a Series II VE with the bugs sorted.

I understand there will be a series 2 VZ with the 6.0l motor after xmas to fill in the gap until VE (If this has the 6 speed auto then that will decide it). The photos don't help as the key points are missing/hidden ie Grill, lights, wheels, interior, colours. Also the lastest "motor" Zebra looks like a 90's Merc with holden mags (did anybody notice the back wheels don't actually fit as they are interferring with the guards and are out of scale).

Anybody else already made the upgrade/wait decision and what swayed you?

By the way the VE in the photos does improve if you paste the Torana lights and grill onto the Zebra and expand the windows to fill the frames (by blacking out the white bits!). The lights fit pretty well into the gaps and the grill fits perfectly (its a sign).

[V-Car]

I followed the link and went over to gm insider news and decided to weigh in on the 'big debate' that are raging over the mobile zebra from downunder.

Nobby, i wouldnt even bother to post over on that forum these days, it doesnt have alot of credibility now.....it started out ok a couple of years ago, but nowadays, i think the average age of the US posters is about 12, and dropping daily. Must be school holidays there too. :headbang:
It used to have alot of intelligent news, but now its staffed by people who can cut and paste news articles from other sources, but know jack about cars in general. :lol:

[BossV8]

Could the pic be a chance of a photoshop, with the original pic being a 380?

Check out this link of a Mitsu 380, and pay close attention to the rear half of the car, the shape is spot on http://yahoo.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=10295&vf=2&bg=1&pp=0

[Marco]

I'm in the market, was tending towards waiting for the VE, wavering towards getting the SSZ then a Series II VE with the bugs sorted.

Anybody else already made the upgrade/wait decision and what swayed you?


I made the 'wait' decision a little while ago - didn't make sense to me to buy now when we all know a completely new car is only a year away. Well, maybe if you get a new car every 2-3 years, but not if you plan to keep them for a while.

My plan is to avoid the first year of production (give them time to sort out the bugs, see if there's any issues with the next V8 like there were with the Gen 3), and more than likely to buy at 12-24 months old because I do 30,000km a year and that's a great way to burn a stack of money in depreciation on a brand new $50k SS. I guess this would mean that, adding that timeline up, I won't be in anything new for another 3 to 4 years (unless i do decide to not worry about the financials and buy new).

[lowriding]

It will not look like a 380 ,and where does anyone see BA lines is totally beyond me !, if your referring to headlights your crazy - they look more like current VZ or VY calais/berlina units stuck in the holes ,on a similar note i doubt it will have VY SS rims either . :p
Its worth remembering that the checkered pattern on the car is NOT random !!It is very precisely and cleverly laid over the car specifically to create line illusions . Much like those eye puzzles ,and obviously works very well .
I for one can't wait to see it,hope Ford has something up its sleeve because , while i appreciate their budget constraints , i think it was a huge mistake not redesigning more of an already old looking falcon with the BF . With its styling origins from the AU it's going to look downright ridiculous in 2007 .And it's already struggling for sales.

[APCLB]

Did anyone notice the boot?looks like a hatch back,5 door???????

[plonkerchops]

It actually says "The quad pipes are for the 6.0 litre V8, the dual for the SV6 and the single for the base "atmo" V6. Pretty much confirms there will be a turbo version offered!


and where are you reading this? or are you trying to read between the lines...? or are you quoting now from whats actually in the MOTOR mag?

[jnicholson]

It will not look like a 380 ,and where does anyone see BA lines is totally beyond me !, if your referring to headlights your crazy - they look more like current VZ or VY calais/berlina units stuck in the holes ,on a similar note i doubt it will have VY SS rims either . :p
Yes, the car in the spy shots features VZ headlights, however, production model headlights look exceptionally similar to BA (way more BA than VZ).

JN

[vzsv6]

and where are you reading this? or are you trying to read between the lines...? or are you quoting now from whats actually in the MOTOR mag?
It was in Motor mag.

[Dacious]

GM makes other 6.0 litre aluminium 8s used in other vehicles. Word is as the LS2 is a performance Corvette motor it will never get DoD which the other motors will, and also runs premium fuel due to 10.9:1 which would kill it for Holden. The other motors will slurp ULP fine.

Turbo V6? Wouldn't hold your breath.

[shane W Z]

AM I THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY TO HAVE NOT SEEN THE LATEST MOTOR Or has anyone in darwin got any idea where it is as i sure as heck can't find it ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!.l

[HFV6]

Is it possible for someone skilled with photoshop to take the Motor spy pictures and get rid of all the camouflage and maybe meld a Torana TT36 front end on? Maybe a bit of an ask but it would give us a great idea of what VE will actually look like.

[mavss]

AM I THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY TO HAVE NOT SEEN THE LATEST MOTOR Or has anyone in darwin got any idea where it is as i sure as heck can't find it ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!.l
Nope. Still haven't seen mine.

[RedCV8R]

GM makes other 6.0 litre aluminium 8s used in other vehicles. Word is as the LS2 is a performance Corvette motor it will never get DoD which the other motors will, and also runs premium fuel due to 10.9:1 which would kill it for Holden. The other motors will slurp ULP fine.

Turbo V6? Wouldn't hold your breath.

I think I rememer reading somewhere that one of the changes from LS1 to LS2 was casting revisions to accommodate DOD, can't find the exact article but this one below is similar.

"General Motors’ new LS2 small-block, which debuted in ’05 Corvettes, GTOs, and selected SSR pickups, is something of an odd breed. Dubbed a Gen IV, the biggest physical differences between it and its predecessors are a new all-aluminum 6.0L block designed to accommodate GM’s Displacement on Demand (DOD) cylinder deactivation technology, and the relocation of a few key sensors including the cam position and MAP sensors (see “Gen Four,” Mar. ’05). But since the ’05 version of the LS2 doesn’t have DOD, and many of its key parts are actually carry-overs from previous-generation LS6s, including the cylinder head castings and camshaft specs, it could almost be called a Gen III1?2."

http://hotrod.com/techarticles/113_0504_ls2/

I think DOD closer than you think.

[chevypower]

I am convinced it will be an LS2... you can tune it to run on regular or premium or whatever you want, just like the LS1... in the non-hsv, runs regular unleaded just fine :-)

[Rick76]

Is it possible for someone skilled with photoshop to take the Motor spy pictures and get rid of all the camouflage and maybe meld a Torana TT36 front end on? Maybe a bit of an ask but it would give us a great idea of what VE will actually look like.

Its rough as but maybe something like this....
http://www.ls1camaro.net/freehosting/VE1A2.jpg

[SV8.YOU]

It actually says "The quad pipes are for the 6.0 litre V8, the dual for the SV6 and the single for the base "atmo" V6. Pretty much confirms there will be a turbo version offered!

There will be no turbo version yet according to motor, they quoted that there will be a single turbo version in ve series 2 in 2008

[VYBerlinaV8]

My biggest concern will be weight. Remember 15 years ago when a base model 6cyl weighed in at under 1400kg? These things have been getting steadily heavier since that time.

What this means is more fuel and less performance, regardless of which engine you tie it to. I read somewhere that the VE will be up to 200kg heavier than current equivalent models - I really hope that's an exaggeration.

[Stevotski]

Its rough as but maybe something like this....
http://www.ls1camaro.net/freehosting/VE1A2.jpg

Good Stuff! :)

Just maybe the shadow on the bonnet makes it look a bit too low compared to the lights

[HSVMAN]

My biggest concern will be weight. Remember 15 years ago when a base model 6cyl weighed in at under 1400kg? These things have been getting steadily heavier since that time.
What this means is more fuel and less performance, regardless of which engine you tie it to. I read somewhere that the VE will be up to 200kg heavier than current equivalent models - I really hope that's an exaggeration.

Why would they bring out a new model in today's climate that would use more fuel and have less performance? :confused: I dont think so...

And there will be a Turbo model later as well as a diesel ;)

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

It does look the goods but looks way too similar to a Lexus IS. Almost to the point where I would think they would be in breach of copyright laws.

[RICHO]

Why would they bring out a new model in today's climate that would use more fuel and have less performance? :confused: I dont think so...

And there will be a Turbo model later as well as a diesel ;)

You'd think that would be the case, but you're talking about a car that has to have a starting price in the low $30's...which limits the use of more expensive lighter weight components and structures to a significant degree.

You could probably justify it if every car being sold was going for HSV prices but that's nowhere near the case. Also gotta remember that most of the structure for the VE would have been signed off well before fuel prices hit $1.30+ per litre.

VE will be almost certainly be heavier, the real question is by how much? From memory Ford's IRS is about 90kg heavier than the unit currently in the Commodore, so weight can add up pretty quickly. They should be able to do some tricky things with panels etc etc to same some weight, but don't expect a lighter car. Not when Holden have to engineer it for such a low starting price point.

.........of course........I could be wrong......

[HSVMAN]

.........of course........I could be wrong......

I dont think you are wrong there. Its not a well kept secret there is a weight increase. And there can only be so much that can be done to counter that.
In fact the weight cannot be compromised too much without sacrificing safety features and there is much more emphasis on safety with Holden nowadays. I just dont think the economy or performance will be any worse off, although they might think they could afford to drop slightly competitor-wise they cannot afford to drop from the consumer's point of view.
The most likely advances to combat weight will come from transmission specs and engine management, along with advanced structural materials :)

[Dacious]

I am convinced it will be an LS2... you can tune it to run on regular or premium or whatever you want, just like the LS1... in the non-hsv, runs regular unleaded just fine :-)


LS1 is 10.1:1 compression. LS2 is 10.9:1. That is a big difference. yes, you could tune it to run ULP. And lose most of the torque along the way.

GM in America has indicated the LS2 is considered a premium performance engine - and is reserved for the Corvette, SSR and GTO. Corvette eval showed drivers didn't like the 'sucking' and choofing on the freeway, and 4-cyl idling sounds DoD generated. People buy cars like those for their performance and exhaust note, not economy, so the ECU tune excludes it. HSV uses the same tune as them.

As a result, it is not enabled on the 2006 Corvette or GTO. It is on other vehicles like SUVs. Chrysyer includes DoD on the 5.7 300C Hemi, but not the 6.0 SRT-8 performance version for similar reasons.

"This efficiency allows a higher, 10.9:1 compression ratio--vs. 10.1:1 on the LS1 and 10.5:1 on the LS6--helping the engine attain 400 horsepower and, we're told, better fuel economy than the smaller-displacement LS1."

"It's the engine's comparatively high compression ratio--a level not seen in some time on a performance-oriented V-8--that surely will have turbo and supercharger manufacturers wondering how much boost can be put to the LS2 before it arrives at Detonation City. At first blush, we'd think not too much!"


Even with less advance, it will be more prone to detonation and touchier on fuel. Why would Holden screw with it, when GM makes another standard alloy V8 in greater numbers which passes emissions, makes 260-270Kw, a mountain of torque and runs on ULP?

[andrewdisco]

LS1 is 10.1:1 compression. LS2 is 10.9:1. That is a big difference. yes, you could tune it to run ULP. And lose most of the torque along the way. Even with less advance, it will be more prone to detonation and touchier on fuel. Why would Holden screw with it, when GM makes another standard alloy V8 in greater numbers which passes emissions, makes 260-270Kw, a mountain of torque and runs on ULP?

I'm more of a motorbike person than a car person (i.e don't know that much :D)... but I run 12.5:1 on ULP on a big bore race bike and it runs ULP with no detonation issues. I would have thought a 10.9:1 would have still been able to manage on ULP ? so whats the big difference between my very hot running 4 valve 500cc 12.5:1 cylinder and the LS2 one ?

Maybe it does require PULP standard... again as mentioned most engineering decisions were made before the petrol spike - i.e only 1.5 months ago.

Also I can't tell the difference between ULP and PULP in my clubsport vy LS1... am I meant to :confused: ?

[Goggles]

well in 10 months time we will find out who is wrong, and who is right.

one thing to remember is that one the issues Holden has faced is the large number of different vehicles produced at Elizabeth. It seems to me that the trend is to go back to a smaller number of variants, and therefore one of the options to have a single V8 for both the Holden and HSV versions.

[GRS]

Andrewdisco, the reason the bike can run such high comp without detonating is due to cam timing. Detonation is caused by effective cylinder pressure being to high. Effective cylinder pressure is a function of static comp ratio (ie the 12.5:1) and the engines ability to pump air. If you have a cam with very aggressive timing (ie high lift long duration) as in a bike the engine will make its best power at high rpm. This type of cam will not work well at low revs becuase the engine will not pump air effectively at these speeds. This also keeps effective cylinder pressure lower at these speeds and stops detonation. In a car engine where the engine needs to produce good torque at low rpm conservative cam timing must be used so cylinder pressures are high at lower rpm and therefore static comp ratio must be lower.

[Dacious]

Andrew, I have a 660cc liquid cooled single cylinder fourstroke, with bore/stroke and redline remarkably close to the LS2 and a 9.8:1 comp. Let me tell you, a blocked fuel vent on the tank cap is enough to start it rattling.........

A 500cc single and a 750cc single with the same bore/stroke relationship are two different animals.

In addition to what GRS says. Ever notice on hi-po hi-comp twins that they are jerky and stop-starty at low revs? There y'go. I bet you don't ride around at 2,000rpm in top and crack the throttle wide open. Your bike might not ping, but it wouldn't like it - it would certainly be sluggish to say the least, as the ECU backed off timing to last week.

Modern race-rep bikes also have far superior cylinder head shape with smaller individual paired valves, with a combustion chamber shape much closer to the ideal flat ellipse with unshrouded valves, and smaller/multple ports which flow better, and mix charge better as a smaller head fills quicker. The smaller bore produces a quicker flame front. All being equal these things allow the bike makers far more latitude with timing and compression. Plus your bike is never gonna tow it's own weight up a steep hill on a 40 deg. day.

Even then, most bike makers with high comp motors don't start advancing until 3-4,000rpm on street fuel. An LS2 would be on full advance by about 3,000rpm.

The LSx series have cylinder head shapes more akin to Harleys with two valves and a small included angles. Let me tell you - 11:1 on PULP would be pushing it for one of them. If you have a Ducati or something like a Honda SP1 the cooling efficiency of the alloy radiators is extremely high and with advanced head design supresses detonation. Still creates stresses though - why Ducati crankcases have strict service lives of about 750-1,000 racing km.

HSV actually recomends PULP for your car. If you're getting away without pinging, consider yourself lucky. You're running ULP on a racebike????

Shudder....... :confused: :eek:

[andrewdisco]

Thanks for the explanation... and sorry to take the thread off track. No, don't run the bike on ULP unless we are out in the middle of no where... but still didn't notice any pinging when I have. Yeah, i know HSV recommends PULP but it doesn't seem to affect performance and it hasn't had an edit to tune to PULP.. maybe the 285kw s2 might be more affected. My understanding is if your engine doesn't ping then there isn't a requirment to go to a higher octane...

New KXF's are up to 13.2:1... not bad for a stocker.... should try one of them on ULP :p

[Dacious]

Ah, so this is a dirtbike! Well that explains a lot. Unless you're doing desert racing where you're WFO the whole time you're very rarely going to really be stressing the motor fuel-wise. Time spent with lots of throttle at moerate revs in a high gear would be <50% even for a good rider. You could still hole a piston with poor fuel. I thought you were racing a streetbike.

I'm not familiar with the current crop apart from YZF but mostly the big MX-based bikes are oversquare IIRC. Makes them revvier and less prone to detonate than longstrokes of yore. Water cooling again makes them stable, and you're going to be giving it the high-rev berries rather than lugging it, I'd imagine. I'd still be running PULP in it - these don't really have much timing variation except for revs so you might be getting detonation you can't hear.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Why would they bring out a new model in today's climate that would use more fuel and have less performance? :confused: I dont think so...



The problem arises when you have a heavier car with the same engine - in this case an Alloytec 6 with a heavier VE body. Having driven VS and VT sixes, the same thing seemed to have occurred.

Certainly they will come up with some other means of improving economy, but what effect will that have on performance? Hopefully not too much.

On a slightly different issue, I have also noticed that many of the small cars we have available (the sub $20k brigade) now weigh in at a tonne or more. Only 10 years ago most of these littlies were more like 800-900kg. I have to admit, though, that todays crop of budget cars is a HEAP better than what was on offer 10 years ago. ;)