wheels-380vrx v bfxr6 v vzsv6

[rs2000]

found this on another forum.

The latest issue of WHEELS arrived today and there’s a few reviews of interest. First is the first drive of the BF and the next is a comparo between the BF XR6, VZ SV6 and the 380 VRX. For those who can’t be bothered reading through everything I’m going to say, put simply, the BF thrashes both and the 380 appears to be a huge disappointment.
Author: Nathan Ponchard.
Styling:
"First impressions don’t bode well. Outwardly the 380 VRX resembles Mitsubishi’s take on a Camry… American-esque blandness and bulbous behind."
They give the SV6 the OK, nothing flash but it’s far from ugly, and they describe the BF as remaining "universally attractive and unisexually appealing"
Inside:
"Slide into the 380 driver’s seat and initial disappointment prevails again. The steering wheel is unattractive…" While they describe the dash top as "funky" the plastic is "hard and doesn’t match any of the other equally hard interior plastics." They go on to say that the speakers look cheap and there’s no "surprise-and-delight features." While they’re on bagging out the 380, they mention that the air-vents can’t be turned off, the steering wheel can’t be adjusted for reach, p/window buttons and stalks are from the Lancer.
"The Commodore’s controls are actually more tactile, clunky ventilation dials apart, while the Falcon interior is in another league again. The Ford’s classy ambience and impressive attention to detail make the Holden’s cabin look dated and flair free."
Steering and ride:
The 380’s steering "impresses for both its accuracy and well-weighted progressiveness when turning away from straight ahead." "For such a big front-driver, the 380 displays excellent poise and even feels noticeably more wieldy than the decent-handling Magna." They praise the refinement and ride quality along with the seats. It’s remains competitive with the "class leading" BF while being well ahead of the VZ. "The Falcon has a firmer ride than the 380, but it’s impressively damped, has better body control, and is far more polished than the stiff Commodore." The only negative with the Falcon is the steering which is "too sensitive in it’s off-centre response" Nothing new with the VZ, it’s acceptable but not class leading.
Engine and transmission:
The Commodores 3.6L and 5-speed auto are OK, although behind the BFs. "The BF six feels smoother, sounds sweeter and mates superbly with the virtually flawless (optional) transmission." The 380’s V6 wasn’t bad either, although nothing to get excited about.
They go on to say that the Falcon has the best rear seat and the most useable interior room. The Falcon is again praised for having the largest boot.
In closing, the Falcon wins easily and they even suggest that it warrants a genuine comparison with European sedans worth several times more.
Falcon XR6: 4.5/5 stars
380 VRX: 3.5/5
Commodore SV6: 2.5/5
Fuel:
XR6: 13.2L per 100km
380: 13.5L per 100km
SV6: 13.0L per 100km

Performance times
XR6: 7.2 seconds and 15.3 @ 151km/h
380: 8.5 seconds and 16.2 @142km/h
SV6: 7.7 seconds and 15.6 @ 149km/h

[Danv8]

I've driven the 380 LX and it was a nice car to drive had some neat features but it was as inspiring as a wet sock.

380 for me no thanks they can stuff their $47,000 odd car. :)

[vzsv6]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

[chops]

Air vents that can't be turned off would be enough for me not to even consider a car, regardless of badge.

It might seem like a small thing, but surely driver comfort has to be a consideration for a manufacturer???

[Danv8]

Air vents that can't be turned off would be enough for me not to even consider a car, regardless of badge.

It might seem like a small thing, but surely driver comfort has to be a consideration for a manufacturer???


Maybe they could not afford to put in another switch to turn the vents off.
:D

[rs2000]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.


so which print media outlet do you consider to have credibility? once again, it's just someones opinion. but what is interesting is that the xr6 has near identical fuel economy with better performance to the sv6.

[vzsv6]

so which print media outlet do you consider to have credibility?
NONE! I am a good enough judge for myself without having to read their stupid opinions..

Comments such as "The speakers look cheap" :rolleyes: God, what are they going to write next?.. As if we haven't already read enough of their crap! Just goes to show that they are running out of useful things to write and fill their magazines with crap just so they can sell a copy.

[XLR8 V8]

but what is interesting is that the xr6 has near identical fuel economy with better performance to the sv6.


The fuel economy thing is very interesting, considering the Ford has a larger capacity engine and a heavier car to haul around?

[RICHO]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

The old bias chestnut again.... :rolleyes:

So, WHY is it biased?? What sort of result did you actually expect??

NEW BF Falcon, near gearbox more powerful engine, NVH improvements, handling refinements, versus
All NEW 380..Well as new as a old US galant design can be, versus
VZ SV6 which is 10months from being replaced by an all new model

Bias?? It's 3 cars at completely different stages in their product lifecycle, so you'd hope the "newer" cars fared better. VZ is the oldest, then BF, then 380. If anything the biggest loser has to be the 380... To be brand new and have so little positive comment has to hurt.

As for the VZ.....am driving a VZSV6 at the moment (for the next 2 weeks), I don't think it's a 2.5 star car, meets every need I can think of (and have...other than the minor issues of a 2 cylinder shortfall) But I haven't driven all 3 cars back to back to make a true comparison.

If you're worried about bias by Wheels and Motor why don't you try

www.theonlynonbiasedarticlesarethosethatsaymycarwi nsacomparison.com

Should keep you happy :D

[PaulST]

Comments such as "The speakers look cheap" :rolleyes:
That was my paraphrasing and not a direct quote from the article. The lack of " " in my origional comments that rs2000 posted indicate that it wasn't a direct quote. Here is what they said (notice the "XX") "The speaker grills at the base of the A-pillars and in the front doors look especially cheap."

[BA$TAD]

hmm very interesting...The ol "boat anchor I6" does pretty good in its old age :D
hmmm wonder if the XT is any quicker than the XR6, in the BA it was. ;)

Have to head down to the shops and pick up the magazine.

[RICHO]

Doubt the XT woudl be quicker as I don't think you can get the 6 spd auto an an I6 XT, can with the 3V 8 but not the 6 from memory.

I think the 6spd auto will have made a significant contribution to improved times / overall performance.

[NinetySix]

Very interesting!


it seems torque REALLY DOES win races :D


the XR6 must have been the 4 speed auto by the way, looking at ford.com.au the 6 speed auto is not an option for it.



i would be VERY interested to see some performance figures for a fairmont 4.0 n/a fitted with the 6 speed auto

[COSMOS]

Very interesting!


it seems torque REALLY DOES win races :D


the XR6 must have been the 4 speed auto by the way, looking at ford.com.au the 6 speed auto is not an option for it.



i would be VERY interested to see some performance figures for a fairmont 4.0 n/a fitted with the 6 speed auto

the xr6 is a 6speed. I just sat in one at a dealer and we both commented that the NA wasnt supposed to come with the ZF box but they are... even had to ask the workshop foreman if it was a trim error but he says not

[PaulST]

The 6-speed manual and 4speed auto are NCO's on th XR6NA while a 6-speed auto is a $1200-odd option. So you can definately get the three different transmission.
I'm surprised that the BA XT was faster than the XR6, especially with the sport diff in the XR6. Having owned both, the XR6 feld quicker. :)

The magazine should be in shops tommorow.

[vzsv6]

The old bias chestnut again.... :rolleyes:
So, WHY is it biased?? What sort of result did you actually expect??


Brand bashing aside, from what I have read of the article it sounds to me like a huge review of the falcon with little comments about the sv6 and 380 thrown in here and there. My personal bias aside, I honestly dont think they have given ALL the cars a fair review. The falcon is obviously their personal favourite and they have decided to glorify it while at the same time unfairly slag off the others.
This coming from a publication who has awarded ford car of the year twice in the last three years..... C'mon you've got to start thinking things!

[RICHO]

Sorry vzsv6 I can't grasp the bias thing, particularly when it comes to wheels COTY.

Holden have 9 wins in total vs Ford's 6

Before BA Fords last win was in 1992 while Holden won the award with VN in 88, VR in 93, VT in 97 and Barina in 2001.

In recent years (big generalisations here) Ford have focused more on engineering and spent up big in the process, versus Holden's focus on maximising the life of it's existing platform with far more exterior upgrades and fewer significant engineering upgrades.

Holden's new platform, gearboxes, suspensions, body, pakaging etc comes next year and will be a big step up from a platform the can be dated back to VT with little change. Next year will be a big year for Holden and Ford will be on the back foot until 2007.

[NinetySix]

Brand bashing aside, from what I have read of the article it sounds to me like a huge review of the falcon with little comments about the sv6 and 380 thrown in here and there. My personal bias aside, I honestly dont think they have given ALL the cars a fair review. The falcon is obviously their personal favourite and they have decided to glorify it while at the same time unfairly slag off the others.
This coming from a publication who has awarded ford car of the year twice in the last three years..... C'mon you've got to start thinking things!


sorry mate, you bought the wrong car :(

[PaulST]

Brand bashing aside, from what I have read of the article it sounds to me like a huge review of the falcon with little comments about the sv6 and 380 thrown in here and there. My personal bias aside, I honestly dont think they have given ALL the cars a fair review. The falcon is obviously their personal favourite and they have decided to glorify it while at the same time unfairly slag off the others.
This coming from a publication who has awarded ford car of the year twice in the last three years..... C'mon you've got to start thinking things!
Guys, I think it’s better if you wait to read the whole thing before judging the review. I’ve taken snippets from the comparo from a Ford fans point of view, and yes there is more praising the VZ that I didn’t add because it wasn’t really relevant (new model in 12 months.) Check it out in newsagents tommorow.

I think the bias claims are getting a little old too. Ford win COTY, "ah WHEELS are in bed with Ford." Holden win COTY "ah WHEELS are in bed with Holden." Just cop it on the chin and move on. The media can't afford to be biased these days or they'll be pulled to pieces and end up with no credibility at all (ie. DRIVE.)

[stew7700]

In any case i reckon holden is on the right track in getting on level terms with the xr6 with the sv6 compared to the previous commodore S v xr6 comparo. Can only get better for the new 3.6 and 5 sp auto and new design coming up. Interesting aswell that when ford stops making mechanical difference to their base model and xr6 that holden starts with theirs.

[dave_au]

Congrads to Ford for making a fairly impressive package.

VZ - oh well, not the wooden spoon, it is a car that is reaching the end of it's product life and the 3.6 has a bit of potential that we probably won't see until VE.

Very bad news for the 380 though - obviously probably not much of a "sports" seller, but for its first comparison to sound so sour from the exert here - a lot of jobs and cost margins are relying on the 380 selling. If it bombs then costs of the componentry in both Falcon, Commodore and Camry will go up.

[Nobby]

Before everyone gets into an arguement with ol' VZSV6 about the Holden bashing the Australian publications are clearly endulging in, and the fair and balanced constructive criticsm being leveled at the 380, and the fanboyism being displayed regarding the Falcon, remember:
Opinions are like arseholes!

Dont feed the trolls.

[Drewie]

I just read the review on www.carpoint.com.au and they seemed to give it glowing reports?

[HRT Stroker]

I had a good look at a 380 GT the other day at MMAL's Adelaide Assembly Plant......the seats are fantastic, the dash and interior in general I thought was of a high standard.

I didn't have the car running........but my impressions were that the car looked good!

[Aus8]

Thats a good review for Ford. The BF when mated with the 6speed auto sounds like a good economical fast bit of gear! Im afraid the SV6 is a good car but just the BF has raised the bar once again.

Lol @ VZSV6. I thought he was taking a holdiday?

Interesting comments on the 380, I will take one for a drive but I just know I wont want FWD.

Cheers

Aus8

[Venom XR]

Given the hype about fuel economy at the moment, the 380's figures against a fatter car with a higher capacity/output engine must be a worry at Mitsu HQ!

[falcon coupe]

Please remove

[falcon coupe]

Thats a good review for Ford. The BF when mated with the 6speed auto sounds like a good economical fast bit of gear! Im afraid the SV6 is a good car but just the BF has raised the bar once again.
Interesting comments on the 380, I will take one for a drive but I just know I wont want FWD.

Cheers

Aus8

My thoughts exactly,you can only own the latest and greatest until a new model comes out, vzsv6 will have to buy an XR6 or wait for the VE SV6 and see if it's worth upgrading.

[lowriding]

Seems to reinforce my current view for the last few years. Want 6cyl =Buy Falcon , Want V8 = Buy Holden . Like always iit's worth noting that its only one persons opinion - people get turned off(and turned on) many cars for the oddest reasons .

[Hybrid-VL]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.


man im glad i dont own a sv6 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[RATT]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

I await your response regarding bias when a Commodore wins a comparison against Ford and Mitsu.. :box:

[EfiJy]

i wasnt going to respond to this thread but i cant resist :D

i dont think the magazines are very consistent and i certainly wouldn't pay much attention to what they write.

the falcon does not come with a 6 speed auto standard which is a shame. i don't know how the 4 speed auto would fair but it is a smooth box anyway.

the 380 is a fwd and not in the same class as falcon and commode imo. cant wait to see one in the metal.

the SV6 isn't a bad car either but not as comfortable as the ford.

horses for courses really. :D

[vzsv6]

Guys, I think it’s better if you wait to read the whole thing before judging the review. I’ve taken snippets from the comparo from a Ford fans point of view, and yes there is more praising the VZ that I didn’t add because it wasn’t really relevant (new model in 12 months.)

In that case I may have jumped the gun a little with my comments, as I formed my opinions on the basis of this and not from reading the actual Wheels article, although I do still think they are biased when it comes to Ford. If you read what I said properly, you will see that I was not bagging the ford product anywhere, I was merely suggesting that I don't like the way they put their judgements across ie. Just because they prefer the falcon they make it sound like the other two are crap and not even worth considering. Now I haven't driven a 380 yet but from the sounds of it it sounds like a decent car, and I know for a fact that the sv6 is nowhere near as bad as they are making it out to be.
Another thing that annoys me is the way they pick on stupid, trivial and irrelevant things to base their comparisons on, such as cheap looking speaker grilles. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what they say about the VE :)

[VYBerlinaV8]

If people are that worried about whether Ford, Holden or Mitsu won a car mag comparison, go test them yourself. I think the most relevant comments here are about the point each car is is the model lifecycle.

Anyone notice how much the 380 weighs?? Holy crap!

Also, what's with the pretty little 'mini magazine' that came with Wheels telling us all hbow wonderful the 380 is? When I saw that, I must admit some thoughts of bias crept into my head...

[seldo]

The old bias chestnut again.... :rolleyes:

So, WHY is it biased?? What sort of result did you actually expect??

NEW BF Falcon, near gearbox more powerful engine, NVH improvements, handling refinements, versus
All NEW 380..Well as new as a old US galant design can be, versus
VZ SV6 which is 10months from being replaced by an all new model

Bias?? It's 3 cars at completely different stages in their product lifecycle, so you'd hope the "newer" cars fared better. VZ is the oldest, then BF, then 380. If anything the biggest loser has to be the 380... To be brand new and have so little positive comment has to hurt.

As for the VZ.....am driving a VZSV6 at the moment (for the next 2 weeks), I don't think it's a 2.5 star car, meets every need I can think of (and have...other than the minor issues of a 2 cylinder shortfall) But I haven't driven all 3 cars back to back to make a true comparison.

If you're worried about bias by Wheels and Motor why don't you try

www.theonlynonbiasedarticlesarethosethatsaymycarwi nsacomparison.com

Should keep you happy :D
Don't be so damned reasonable and logical. ;)

[Ricko]

The magazine judges the winner based on the car THEY prefer,.... you buy a car based on the one YOU prefer, end of story. If their opinion gets your nickers in too much of a twist, then maybe your not so confident that you made the right decision??

I felt as though the Falcon interior looked and felt nicer than the Commodores,.... ......but then realised it had to, as you often had bits of its interior come off in your hand. :lol:

As individuals, we rate what is important to us, and how good something is differently, pretty simple really.

[SV99]

Very interesting!


it seems torque REALLY DOES win races :D


the XR6 must have been the 4 speed auto by the way, looking at ford.com.au the 6 speed auto is not an option for it.



i would be VERY interested to see some performance figures for a fairmont 4.0 n/a fitted with the 6 speed auto

The 6spd ZF is a 1250 dollar option on the Non Turbo XR6

[SV99]

In that case I may have jumped the gun a little with my comments, as I formed my opinions on the basis of this and not from reading the actual Wheels article, although I do still think they are biased when it comes to Ford. If you read what I said properly, you will see that I was not bagging the ford product anywhere, I was merely suggesting that I don't like the way they put their judgements across ie. Just because they prefer the falcon they make it sound like the other two are crap and not even worth considering. Now I haven't driven a 380 yet but from the sounds of it it sounds like a decent car, and I know for a fact that the sv6 is nowhere near as bad as they are making it out to be.
Another thing that annoys me is the way they pick on stupid, trivial and irrelevant things to base their comparisons on, such as cheap looking speaker grilles. :rolleyes:
Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what they say about the VE :)


It seems your no different whoever you are. Because as soon as someone says anything bad about holden you jump on the soap box. So whats good for them is good for you.

:booty:

Its only a magazine review but for people like you there is no other car other than a holden.

[IIV8II]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

lol... okay, stick your head in the sand...

[PepeLePew]

vzsv6 has pulled his head in and explained why he felt like he felt (I read the paraphrasing a bit like that too, and if anything Im a bit biased towards the other camp)....so how about we build the proverbial bridge and get back on topic :)

[vzsv6]

vzsv6 has pulled his head in and explained why he felt like he felt (I read the paraphrasing a bit like that too, and if anything Im a bit biased towards the other camp)....so how about we build the proverbial bridge and get back on topic :)

Thankyou...
At least someone can see where I'm coming from and not just jump on the bandwagon and bag me just for the hell of it.

[muzza]

Now I wonder why they didn't throw in a V6 Camry as well for the Comparo?

It too will shortly be replaced.

It would probably have finished bottom - jouno's don't really like them that much - but it doesn't stop them selling shitloads of 4 and 6 cyl ones however.

Obvoiusly the bulk of the buying public/fleets pay little attention to magazine comparos.

[SSFreak]

I always take these reviews with a grain of salt, whichever way they go. The longer the article the more detail they go into, comparing bits and pieces between cars. If the article has gotten down to the level of comparing speaker grills then maybe they should have stopped writing a little sooner. :)

It's not that any of the cars are bad, it's just that in somes ways one or more of the cars may be a little better. Many of the things they criticise most people wouldn't even notice or even really care about. I remember articles criticising the dashboard buttons in the VXs and then VYs. I've owned both and they seemed alright to me. I believe the Ford ones are better. Doesn't worry me, I don't go around feeling buttons all of the time thinking "ooh, I don't know, that button could be a little more tactile". As long as the damn thing works and doesn't fall off I don't really care.

As others have already mentioned, these articles are the personal opinions of the reviewers who have usually done so many reviews of so many cars, they often nitpick things that don't really matter that much in the overall scheme of things.

IMHO, I don't think you would go wrong buying any of these cars.

[ShanghaiVZ]

Now I wonder why they didn't throw in a V6 Camry as well for the Comparo?

:lol: :lol: . I highly doubt Toyota want another caning, I agree the test seem somewhat unfair, the better comparo will be the BF/VE/380, now that will be very very interesting. Since we won't see the VE till next year, they had to include it. What amazes me is the SV6 posted identical 1/4 time (in the last joust with the BA XR6) to todays XR6 a 15.3..and yet they recorded a 15.6 for the SV6 whos driving these cars, grandpa?? Also they say the XR6 weighs in at 1710kg even with the new gearbox, didn't they weigh that much from the beginning?? These journos are on crack. :lol:

[PaulST]

Obvoiusly the bulk of the buying public/fleets pay little attention to magazine comparos.
I disagree that the public don't take any notice of these reviews. On the contrary in fact. When we looked at leasing a pajero Exceed last year, the salesperson (who actually knew their stuff) was quoting magazines and newspapers. When the BA was released, Ford had thousands of excerts from WHEELS printed where they comared the XR6/S, Exec/XT, Ghia/Calais, XR6T/SS (or something like that) and all the Falcons won and these were handed out at dealerships.
WHEELS is probably the most respected magazine out of the lot of them so this really is bad news for Mitsubishi.

In regards to the performance figures, WHEELS have a whole list of things such as having two people in the car and half a tank of petrol...etc while the likes of MOTOR get the car as light as possible.

[YLD57L]

Very interesting!


it seems torque REALLY DOES win races :D


the XR6 must have been the 4 speed auto by the way, looking at ford.com.au the 6 speed auto is not an option for it.



i would be VERY interested to see some performance figures for a fairmont 4.0 n/a fitted with the 6 speed auto

Torque doesn't win races. (Average) power complimented by gear ratios does in this case is why the Ford is quicker.

As for Wheels being biased? Pfft... accept that the SV6 is behind as it is an aging platform- and understand they didn't bag the car at all. They said it was a likable thing, just inferior to the XR6 and the 380. Actually come to think of it, the SV6 narrowly lost to the BA. The BF made sure it made the gap longer. :lol:

[clubbie]

Ford=quality interior....b*llsh@t. Just drove form Adel to Phillip Isl for the MotoGP in a year old XR8. Plastics are crap. Dash cover fades and warps. Plastics break where the centre console meets the dash (the curved bit) and had rattles and squeks at speed.

MY vy has had anything break or fall off (yet) not even the flimsy cup holders. Also you wouldnt call the XR series front seats comfortable or supportive especially in leather (back to back with a year old BMW 325i which has fantastic seats).

So i am wondering how many journos live with these cars for say 12-18 months day in day out to see what breaks etc. My guess is none. What may look good in the showroom is not necessarily going to handle the harsh day to day grind.

[YLD57L]

That's a good point clubbie. Add to that in my case it's unlikely I would ever buy a brand new car so it would be good if they made 'nearly new' car magazines. :lol:

[Danv8]

[QUOTE=clubbie]Ford=quality interior....b*llsh@t. Just drove form Adel to Phillip Isl for the MotoGP in a year old XR8. Plastics are crap. Dash cover fades and warps. Plastics break where the centre console meets the dash (the curved bit) and had rattles and squeks at speed.

I have to agree not because its brand but I always found the EF-AU's to be much more durable in the interior. My EL wagon was very well built inside and out had a few rattles but it was noticeable on rough surfaces. But I have been in a few of my friends BA's and a few Taxi's and they had more squeaks and rattles than my old VP wagon (before I got the EL wagon). My VY2 Calais has just under 30,000 on the clock now and still has no rattles or squeaks to speak of. I thought the Falcon XF, ED, EF-EL and AU's were the most durable falcons (and falcon based vehicles like utes, fairlanes etc) built. They are not as durable as they use to be and it is a shame too.

[Carby]

My experience in these matters, having been a long time reader of both magazines is that whenever a new "Australian" model comes out - no matter what brand, it generally wins any comparison against the competition. One thing is almost certain is that the vehicle that is the oldest design or due for replacement soon, always gets the gong, like in this case with the SV6.

When you think of it - it makes sense - the manufacturer who releases the latest car is going to get the trophy (usually) that keeps that manufacturer happy and the others just have to wait until their new "you beaut" model is released then it will be their turn to get the rewards. That way all the car companies will keep up the advertising to the car magazine.

The hard part for them is when say a Ford and Holden are released within a month or so of each other and they do the comparison - these are always difficult comparisons and you find that it's even, or very, very close and we prefer XX because it has one more cup holder, or if you want comfort or ride, XX for you, if you want performance and handling YY is your go - ie they make you make the choice.

I may seem cynical, but that is how I view Wheels and Motor magazines.

[Nobby]

Unedit my post please.

[NODDY347]

My experience in these matters, having been a long time reader of both magazines is that whenever a new "Australian" model comes out - no matter what brand, it generally wins any comparison against the competition. One thing is almost certain is that the vehicle that is the oldest design or due for replacement soon, always gets the gong, like in this case with the SV6.

When you think of it - it makes sense - the manufacturer who releases the latest car is going to get the trophy (usually) that keeps that manufacturer happy and the others just have to wait until their new "you beaut" model is released then it will be their turn to get the rewards. That way all the car companies will keep up the advertising to the car magazine.

The hard part for them is when say a Ford and Holden are released within a month or so of each other and they do the comparison - these are always difficult comparisons and you find that it's even, or very, very close and we prefer XX because it has one more cup holder, or if you want comfort or ride, XX for you, if you want performance and handling YY is your go - ie they make you make the choice.

I may seem cynical, but that is how I view Wheels and Motor magazines.



I don't think your cynical and too a point i agree with you but seeing that the 380 is the lastest car amongst the three i was hoping it may have had touch better first review.

[lowriding]

My experience in these matters, having been a long time reader of both magazines is that whenever a new "Australian" model comes out - no matter what brand, it generally wins any comparison against the competition. One thing is almost certain is that the vehicle that is the oldest design or due for replacement soon, always gets the gong, like in this case with the SV6.

When you think of it - it makes sense - the manufacturer who releases the latest car is going to get the trophy (usually) that keeps that manufacturer happy and the others just have to wait until their new "you beaut" model is released then it will be their turn to get the rewards. That way all the car companies will keep up the advertising to the car magazine.

The hard part for them is when say a Ford and Holden are released within a month or so of each other and they do the comparison - these are always difficult comparisons and you find that it's even, or very, very close and we prefer XX because it has one more cup holder, or if you want comfort or ride, XX for you, if you want performance and handling YY is your go - ie they make you make the choice.

I may seem cynical, but that is how I view Wheels and Motor magazines.


geezus your cynical carby :D :D I happen to generally agree though it does seem the pattern.

[YLD57L]

I posted something similarly cynical (Realist? Or cynic? :lol: ) and one of the guys from Motor wrote on this board about how ridiculous I was to say that. Meh, I still buy the mags. :lol:

[muzza]

Posted by PaulST:
I disagree that the public don't take any notice of these reviews. On the contrary in fact. When we looked at leasing a pajero Exceed last year, the salesperson (who actually knew their stuff) was quoting magazines and newspapers. When the BA was released, Ford had thousands of excerts from WHEELS printed where they comared the XR6/S, Exec/XT, Ghia/Calais, XR6T/SS (or something like that) and all the Falcons won and these were handed out at dealerships.
WHEELS is probably the most respected magazine out of the lot of them so this really is bad news for Mitsubishi.

Scuse me PaulST, just how has that helped Ford win the sales race to date? :D
From memory the Winner Of Comparisons BA has outsold the VY/VZ for one month I believe in the last year, and so my point stands. The average/common buyer will follow brand, personal recommendations and/or best deal, confirmed by a satisfactory test drive before buying. Magazines may be a guide but they dont serve as anything except PR fodder for the car companies.

[seldo]

But surely it's not a valid comparison any way. The mag's comparison should have been probably Camry/380/ Maxima where they were comparing equal degrees of blandness and leave the Holden/Falcon comparo to someone else where they were more closely comparing apples/apples.

[vzsv6]

Ford=quality interior....b*llsh@t. Just drove form Adel to Phillip Isl for the MotoGP in a year old XR8. Plastics are crap. Dash cover fades and warps. Plastics break where the centre console meets the dash (the curved bit) and had rattles and squeks at speed.

MY vy has had anything break or fall off (yet) not even the flimsy cup holders. Also you wouldnt call the XR series front seats comfortable or supportive especially in leather (back to back with a year old BMW 325i which has fantastic seats).

So i am wondering how many journos live with these cars for say 12-18 months day in day out to see what breaks etc. My guess is none. What may look good in the showroom is not necessarily going to handle the harsh day to day grind.

EXACTLY!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Now we're talking!!

Seriously, these motoring journos drive a car for 5 minutes then think they're qualified to make such damming judgements.
They carry on about the quality of the falcon's interior, but just because it is shiny and new and looks good on the day doesn't mean it will be that good tomorrow. Thats why I get fired up over these things, because from personal experience and brand biases totally aside, I have found the commodore's interior to be of much better quality and durability than the ba's. I also totally dispute their comments about the ba interior making the vz's look dated. What a load of %$#@%$#. If anything they are on par with each other styling wise.

Same goes with your comments about the xr's seats. They are very flat and lack support. To me they appear to be nothing but base model xt seats covered in different trim and an xr logo stuck on them - yes my personal opinion, but I'm sure many would agree... But no, Wheels writes volumes on how comfortable and supportive they are...

I would be the first to stand up and say that the ZF auto is a brilliant piece of engineering and ford deserves credit for using them in their cars. Its just a pity the rest of the car does absolutely nothing for me.
What I think Wheels have done is base their review around this transmission and glorify other areas of the car which do not deserve such high praise (if that makes sense).

[nikola]

What I think Wheels have done is base their review around this transmission and glorify other areas of the car which do not deserve such high praise.

You forgot to mention the superior engine and suspension too. Oh wait, that in turn makes the Ford quite a superior vehicle in the end.

[LT8888]

EXACTLY!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Now we're talking!!

Seriously, these motoring journos drive a car for 5 minutes then think they're qualified to make such damming judgements.
They carry on about the quality of the falcon's interior, but just because it is shiny and new and looks good on the day doesn't mean it will be that good tomorrow. Thats why I get fired up over these things, because from personal experience and brand biases totally aside, I have found the commodore's interior to be of much better quality and durability than the ba's. I also totally dispute their comments about the ba interior making the vz's look dated. What a load of %$#@%$#. If anything they are on par with each other styling wise.

Same goes with your comments about the xr's seats. They are very flat and lack support. To me they appear to be nothing but base model xt seats covered in different trim and an xr logo stuck on them - yes my personal opinion, but I'm sure many would agree... But no, Wheels writes volumes on how comfortable and supportive they are...

I would be the first to stand up and say that the ZF auto is a brilliant piece of engineering and ford deserves credit for using them in their cars. Its just a pity the rest of the car does absolutely nothing for me.
What I think Wheels have done is base their review around this transmission and glorify other areas of the car which do not deserve such high praise (if that makes sense).

Bottom line is you're just too blind to look past the Holden badge. The fact that even the majority of LS1ers here can admit that the BF is a good car despite preferring Holdens proves my point. You should be the last person on earth to accuse anyone of bias :flip2:

[vzsv6]

The best thing we can do in this case is to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[myles]

A little off topic, but I've often wondered what goes on behind the scenes of motoring magazines and the cars tested.

Would the outcome ever be influenced when a few particular 'models' arrive for staff keeping?

Say a few 380s were offloaded to wheels staff, would there suddenly be a more positive review?

Does it also come down to who has the biggest budget to satisfy the motoring journalist?

Used to think about the days of christmas time and all the gifts and bottles of wine that would arrive on my desk to persuade a particular point of view. (ps - didn't work, but thanks for the wine! ;) :beer: :cheers: )

[gsw]

Bottom line is you're just too blind to look past the Holden badge. The fact that even the majority of LS1ers here can admit that the BF is a good car despite preferring Holdens proves my point. You should be the last person on earth to accuse anyone of bias :flip2:

Better be carefull, he might start sending you hate PM's like he did to me if you say something negative about him. As for the article the way I see it is Falcon is a newer car them the Holden, thus more refinement in most area's. When VE comes out it should leap frog the Ford and it should be the other way around (VE being the better). Again when the new Falcon comes out in a few years time the same thing will happen again. Anybody remember the comparison between VT and the EL? They review what is available from the manufacturers at the time.

[RATT]

Ford=quality interior....b*llsh@t. Just drove form Adel to Phillip Isl for the MotoGP in a year old XR8. Plastics are crap. Dash cover fades and warps. Plastics break where the centre console meets the dash (the curved bit) and had rattles and squeks at speed.

MY vy has had anything break or fall off (yet) not even the flimsy cup holders. Also you wouldnt call the XR series front seats comfortable or supportive especially in leather (back to back with a year old BMW 325i which has fantastic seats).

So i am wondering how many journos live with these cars for say 12-18 months day in day out to see what breaks etc. My guess is none. What may look good in the showroom is not necessarily going to handle the harsh day to day grind.

Yeah yeah yeah, bits falling off. Couldn't make up anything else could we?

I've never seen any bits fall off a Falcon, or Commodore dash for that matter. And I have worked at both a Holden and now a Ford dealer.

[flappist]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

Unless, of course, a Holden wins in which case they are astute intellegent credible oracles of wisdom aren't they?........

[BLACK 346]

Yeah yeah yeah, bits falling off. Couldn't make up anything else could we?

I've never seen any bits fall off a Falcon, or Commodore dash for that matter. And I have worked at both a Holden and now a Ford dealer.

Our VY2 Wagon at work has lost a few bits. The switch
that controls the electric seat has fallen off and wont
stay on, the plastic covers that go over the seat bases
continually fall off and end up shoved under the seat.
Not dash parts, but annoying just the same, glad it's
not mine. I had the fuse cover under the steering
wheel fall down on my legs whilst driving my SS,
not the cars fault though, holden servicing had put it
back in without the plastic lugs it hinges on, could
have been quite dangerous (not as dangerous as
letting me drive it from Nowra to Adelaide with
bolts missing from the bellhousing after a gearbox
change though-but that's another story).

[BA$TAD]

Yeah yeah yeah, bits falling off. Couldn't make up anything else could we?

I've never seen any bits fall off a Falcon, or Commodore dash for that matter. And I have worked at both a Holden and now a Ford dealer.
same here, my BA is 3 years old and nothing has fallen off. Same with commodores, Monaros and various other makes of cars that i have been in. But i guess i have been lucky.

[GUN V8]

EXACTLY!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Now we're talking!!

Seriously, these motoring journos drive a car for 5 minutes then think they're qualified to make such damming judgements.
They carry on about the quality of the falcon's interior, but just because it is shiny and new and looks good on the day doesn't mean it will be that good tomorrow. Thats why I get fired up over these things, because from personal experience and brand biases totally aside, I have found the commodore's interior to be of much better quality and durability than the ba's. I also totally dispute their comments about the ba interior making the vz's look dated. What a load of %$#@%$#. If anything they are on par with each other styling wise.

Same goes with your comments about the xr's seats. They are very flat and lack support. To me they appear to be nothing but base model xt seats covered in different trim and an xr logo stuck on them - yes my personal opinion, but I'm sure many would agree... But no, Wheels writes volumes on how comfortable and supportive they are...

I would be the first to stand up and say that the ZF auto is a brilliant piece of engineering and ford deserves credit for using them in their cars. Its just a pity the rest of the car does absolutely nothing for me.
What I think Wheels have done is base their review around this transmission and glorify other areas of the car which do not deserve such high praise (if that makes sense).

A Close friend of mines father is a motoring journalist. Let me just say that these guys dont own cars. they get given these cars to drive for more than just 5 minutes. They actually get to take them home and live with them for up to a couple of weeks if they wish.

As for bits falling of...... I believe you have completed the final task and have successfully qualified for being a lying idiot!!!

[EB4U2C]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.
well said mate and get over it.

[ShanghaiVZ]

It's not that any of the cars are bad, it's just that in somes ways one or more of the cars may be a little better. Many of the things they criticise most people wouldn't even notice or even really care about. I remember articles criticising the dashboard buttons in the VXs and then VYs. I've owned both and they seemed alright to me. I believe the Ford ones are better. Doesn't worry me, I don't go around feeling buttons all of the time thinking "ooh, I don't know, that button could be a little more tactile". As long as the damn thing works and doesn't fall off I don't really care.

As others have already mentioned, these articles are the personal opinions of the reviewers who have usually done so many reviews of so many cars, they often nitpick things that don't really matter that much in the overall scheme of things.

IMHO, I don't think you would go wrong buying any of these cars.

Well Said! :)

[PaulST]

Posted by PaulST:

Scuse me PaulST, just how has that helped Ford win the sales race to date? :D
From memory the Winner Of Comparisons BA has outsold the VY/VZ for one month I believe in the last year, and so my point stands. The average/common buyer will follow brand, personal recommendations and/or best deal, confirmed by a satisfactory test drive before buying. Magazines may be a guide but they dont serve as anything except PR fodder for the car companies.
As pointed out in one of the recent magazines in question (MOTOR or WHEELS), Holden can build way more and can afford the huge discounts they've been giving out since the BA was released.
I never said that the magazines are the only thing people look at, but they're still incredibly influential.

On the topic of interior plastics, I've had one BA and two BAMk2s in the last 12 months and the plastics are fine. I suppose it all depends on your expectations of what a $35K car should be like inside.

[vzsv6]

Unless, of course, a Holden wins in which case they are astute intellegent credible oracles of wisdom aren't they?........

Maybe if you put these so called 'oracles of wisdom' and intelligence to use and learn to comprehend my posts in this thread properly, you will find that I was not disputing the fact that the falcon won the comparison, but rather the way the author chose to brush off the other two cars with unfair and rather harsh critisisms which have in turn glorified the falcon to a greater extent than it should have been.
Holden may be my preferred vehicle but I am far from being 'blindly one eyed', having owned many other brands of vehicle over the years. I do however have a dislike for ford and would never own one of their cars, but that hardly makes me 'one eyed', does it? If the 380 was rwd, I'd probably be driving one right now!

[HRT Stroker]

Let's keep it cool in here people.......EVERYONE.

Anyone getting personal WILL be given an involuntary holiday.......

[lowriding]

Yeah yeah yeah, bits falling off. Couldn't make up anything else could we?

I've never seen any bits fall off a Falcon, or Commodore dash for that matter. And I have worked at both a Holden and now a Ford dealer.

Bit harsh Ratt. While nothing "fell" off my BA co. car it wasn't by any stretch a perfect interior - the cup holder cover broke within the first month , the drivers RH seat lumber thingo crushed very quickly(common in too many cars !) the centre console lid was always loose and felt mismatched for the 40000km i drove it .handbrake felt very cheap and nasty,& needed adjusted several times.I wouldnt have a clue if they were known problems or not but you can't tell me cars (in particular Falcons and Commodores)in this price point are perfect,and that things dont fall off.I have never seen one.I have a quote from wheels testing a TE Cortina where they claimed the quality was so appalling that even under moderate acceleration all the knobs fell off the dashboard! Unfortunately the QC in aus manufactured cars in my experiance has never been worlds best practice .End of the day i would not hesitate in having another BA . Did the job & much better car than the AU were.
regards

[RATT]

It's hardly harsh. The issues mentioned with plastic bits from the Commodore electric drivers seat knob and plastic cupholder lid on Falcons are hardly common, or big problems.

[YLD57L]

My Dad had a new Cortina 'back in the day', and he said the same thing about quality.... the window winder simply fell off in his hand while using it. :lol: That would not be accepted these days, Aussie cars have come a very long way in recent times.

[commomate]

I do however have a dislike for ford and would never own one of their cars, but that hardly makes me 'one eyed', does it?

?????????????? sounds one eyed to me

In my job I'm in and out of all dirfferent brands of cars all day
I must say that the BA is alot better car than the VY was and if the BF is as half as much of a inprovement over the BA as the article says the Falcon would by way ahead of the Commodore

If the tables were turned in this article we would be all glotting how good the Commodre is and the Falcon is crap and how the article is 100% spot on just like the Ford boys are probaly doing now

OK you have a dislike for Fords but go and test drive one with an open mind and you will notice a huge gap in favour of the Falcon

Just have to wait to the VE to glote

on page 52 the bog stock XT (4 speed auto) does 0-100 in 7.8 sec
" " " Fairmont Ghia (6 speed auto) 0-100 in 7.5 sec
on page 63 XR 6 speed auto 0-100 in 7.4 sec
" " " SV6 5 speed auto 0-100 in 7.7 sec
on page 51 XR6 Turbo (6 speed auto) 0-100 in 6.2 sec
on page 48 XR8 (6 speed auto) 0-100 in 6.4 secs

[NODDY347]

OK you have a dislike for Fords but go and test drive one with an open mind and you will notice a huge gap in favour of the Falcon

It would be the obvious and smart thing to do but it will never happen, he can't get past the badge. :rolleyes:

[clubbie]

Yeah yeah yeah, bits falling off. Couldn't make up anything else could we?

I've never seen any bits fall off a Falcon, or Commodore dash for that matter. And I have worked at both a Holden and now a Ford dealer.
Try telling that to the owner who upgraded from an Audi 1.8T for more grunt. He got the grunt OK (and the boss sounds faaaaarkn good) but he also got crap plastics. Cant say the Clubbie has better quality plastics as im not an expert on plastics but a CRACK IS A CRACK and SQUEAKS ARE SQEAKS. OH and just in case u say im hearing things I drove the thing for a few hours. Can post up the speeding fine (sent to owner) and photo when i get it.
BTW are you now in FORD PR. :clown:

[vzsv6]

It would be the obvious and smart thing to do but it will never happen, he can't get past the badge. :rolleyes:

You do not know me personally or anything about me, so don't go making such assumptions. When I joined this forum I dont recall reading anywhere that it was mandatory to like fords. You guys make it sound like it is a crime to speak out negatively against a ford! If I wanted to carry on about how glorious fords are I would join a ford forum!
If fords are so great in your world then go out and buy one, nobody's stopping you! It seems that the ford guys on this forum are the ones with the problem - They can't accept that everyone has their own opinions!!!!
Tell me why the hell I should have to justify myself to you just because you disagree with my opinions!!
Seriously, it's about time you got over yourselves!

[nikola]

They can't accept that everyone has their own opinions!

Because the claim that the 6 cylinder versions of the BF are better than VZ isn't opinion, it's fact. You can't dispute a fact with a false opinion.

[gsw]

Tell me why the hell I should have to justify myself to you just because you disagree with my opinions!!
Seriously, it's about time you got over yourselves!

Everybody has to justify what they are saying, you just say something like the ford engines should be in tractors and you don't back yourself up. That is why you are the one singled out. People won't get over you until you grow up a little more.

[Dacious]

Because the claim that the 6 cylinder versions of the BF are better than VZ isn't opinion, it's fact. You can't dispute a fact with a false opinion.

Fact? Look, no-ones denying the Falcs seem to win mag comparos and in some categories: but fact is a little too strong.

It is a fact the Falcon uses more fuel. Arguably the Holden six is factually 'better' in that regard. The 175 is 15% better in some tests than the Falcon. The RACV even said Holden had understated economy comparing the two on a standard test loop.

It is a fact that Holden sixes outsell Falcons. You could argue this makes them factually 'better'.

Whether the car is better is far more subjective than factual, and involves more than just numbers - if nine out of ten roadtesters declare it better, 10% uncertainty is still enough to acquit an indicted criminal, although the probabability is that it is better. You could say '9 out of 10 roadtesters prefer the Falcon' and no-one can argue.

Unfortunately 9 out of 10 buyers don't - it's only something like 4 out of 10. So the Holden is 'factually' better there.

In one recent comparo between XR6 A4 and SV6 the conclusion was one car was better in some ways, the other better in others. The Falcon won 0-100 due to the SV6 having 2.87 rear vs 3.45, the SV6 was quicker once moving, quicker around a circuit and got the nod for handling and stock vs stock braked better. Falcon was smoother and better riding. Both got 4 stars. Doing comparisons of base wagons had the Commodore in front, performance and economy - even with the 175 and A4.

So like all generalisations, saying it is a 'fact' that all Falcon sixes are better than Commodores is actually wrong.

Is a $1250 six-speed auto in a large capacity car with a grunty motor a plus? The old car sat on 1800 revs @ 100km/h, the new doesn't seem to get any better economy judging by past tests - and the 1-2 tenths at the quarter or 0-100 could easily be the extra 8kw and 5 nm torque from the motor. You normally throw extra speeds at less-flexible motors to keep them in their powerbands - like the BMW M3 which has little low-down grunt but revs to 8500rpm. Put your foot down at 2,000rpm in top in that, and you get not much more than noise.

With motors like the Barra and Boss, which are not fast- or quick-spinning motors seemingly but supposedly have mountains of torque, you want them pulling hard from low-high revs - not swapping cogs. By undergearing motors with no over-rev capability they will run out of revs too fast, then the ECU has to close the FBW throttle to change up, losing momentum in the process.

[HSVMAN]

OK you have a dislike for Fords but go and test drive one with an open mind and you will notice a huge gap in favour of the Falcon
Just have to wait to the VE to glote


vzsv6 may come up with some rather, lets say "controversial statements" at times and rightly cops a fair bit of flak over it, however there are a number of pots calling the kettle black here so I suggest some of you look in the mirror ;)

There is'nt a gap of any proportion between these cars as they are so close it comes down to personal preference.
Each has its likes and dislikes from either camp.
Opinions are opinions and facts are facts.

Opinion: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof" (dictionary.com)

[Danv8]

vzsv6 may come up with some rather, lets say "controversial statements" at times and rightly cops a fair bit of flak over it, however there are a number of pots calling the kettle black here so I suggest some of you look in the mirror ;)

There is'nt a gap of any proportion between these cars as they are so close it comes down to personal preference.
Each has its likes and dislikes from either camp.
Opinions are opinions and facts are facts.

Opinion: "A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof" (dictionary.com)


How dare you put some sence in a senceless topic!
Go sit in the corner. ;)

Seriously I agree with you. :D

[Evil LS1]

Hmmm, how does a car significantly heavier than the commodore, with the same power but a bit more more torque whips it's arse in a straight line?

Gotta say the 380 is very disappointing. Massive weight and size increase (for what reason), lowest power, still the slowest, smallest boot, ugliest by a country mile, did the impossible and made an uglier steering wheel than the commodore, lot's of penny pinching shortcuts, fwd, no 6sp manual. The older model Magna sports was a very good car and was a decent size and weight. I'm sure the 380 is a nice drive, but leaves me cold. Unfortunately it's not much more desirable than the class leader of non-style, the Camry. God forbid, the Camry's replacement actually looks promising and will leave Mitsubishi having the ugliest car this time next year.

The BF is doing a nice job with an older car and deserved it's win. Commodore should have fitted decent IRS and gearboxes with the VY rather than smoke an mirrors resale destroying lame updates. It's a shame we have to wait 11 more months for the VE and really 2 years as only a fool buys the first series of an all new model, so we have to wait for VE II, by which time all new Falcon is out.

[Dacious]

Simple: XR6 rear-end 3.46:1, plus lower first gear does it from a standing start. SV6 rear is 2.87:1 - taller than nearly all the V8s for some reason known to Holden. SV6 bogs off the line and can't make up the diff. Mind you, try it with manuals and it's likely another story.

By the time the SV6 is rolling the Falcon has gone. The old Supercharged SV6 used to just beat the BA A4 XR6 0-100 for precisely the same reason, despite 30kw less power. In fact IIRC the BA XT Falcon pipped both due to same gearing/less weight than the XR!

From a 20 kay roll it would be much, much closer and I suspect the further you went, the Holden would edge further in front.

[vzsv6]

I think those who are bragging about the falcon (motoring journos included) are doing it on the basis of it's on paper specification rather than its real world performance.
Example: On paper, the falcon's irs is far more technologically advanced than the commodores, however if you drive the cars without any knowledge of the specs, you would be hard pressed to notice any difference apart from a slightly softer ride in the falcon. The Commodore has even been judged the better handler in many comparisons.

And what is it with people carrying on about smoothness and quietness??? Being a performance oriented forum, 95% of people here would modify their cars with exhausts, cams, lowered suspension etc.. which would automatically cancel out the NVH qualities of a car. If we were so concerned about smoothness and NVH, we'd all be driving grandpa spec Avalons or something. :rolleyes:

Finally, I struggle to concieve how a motoring journalist's opinion can be regarded as a fact??? :rolleyes: I think it's time some people woke up out of their fantasy world and had a reality check. The Commodore is much better than your brainwashed mind would think.

[flappist]

I haven't had so much fun since I overheard a Macintosh user explaining how much better Macs were than Windows & Linux

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[RICHO]

I haven't had so much fun since I overheard a Macintosh user explaining how much better Macs were than Windows & Linux

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Fun....you call that fun.....

The Mac user had never actually used either computer, and just base their opinions off the manufacturers specs. Besides.....the Mac was nicer to look at...

And how can you compare them anyway?? Most users soup up their cars with more memory, faster processors, graphics and media cards........You're all brainwashed.........

Sorry!! Got carried away there for a second

Anyway which is better??

They highest seller.....or the most user friendly....

Or is it....wait for it....a matter of personal opinion :eek: :eek:

[Evil LS1]

The Commodore is much better than your brainwashed mind would think.

I've never washed my arse let alone my brain, so don't make blanket statements. :booty:

Why are you upset? You clearly like your SV6 and that's all that matters. if your happy you made a good decision. If any one should be pissed it's Mitsubishi, as there brand new car still rated a full star lower than the old fowlcan. The ford's gearbox is clearly the best by a long way and this helped it a lot. Interior is the best IMO and I agree with wheels on this.

[NODDY347]

Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.

....this is your first post in this thread and you have sounded the same drum the whole way through and thats fine, your choice. At that stage all you did was sledge both magazines the editors and the journos doing the reviews without having read the entire review which didn't give the vzsv6 a bad rap. A fair few ls1 members have said from the pics and info available, hey thats not bad looking, its an improvement or whatever. Go and take a xr6t 6sp auto for a spin, and then come back and tell us what ya think....

[NODDY347]

You do not know me personally or anything about me, so don't go making such assumptions. When I joined this forum I dont recall reading anywhere that it was mandatory to like fords. You guys make it sound like it is a crime to speak out negatively against a ford! If I wanted to carry on about how glorious fords are I would join a ford forum!
If fords are so great in your world then go out and buy one, nobody's stopping you! It seems that the ford guys on this forum are the ones with the problem - They can't accept that everyone has their own opinions!!!!
Tell me why the hell I should have to justify myself to you just because you disagree with my opinions!!
Seriously, it's about time you got over yourselves!

I don't have to get over myself, i have had vr and vt commodores, both were great cars. I am driving a falcon now and i am brand neutral, i buy what blows my whistle at the time. Lately its been a string of Fords. I am on this forum because the members are level headed opened minded people, unlike some other forums around the place.

[YLD57L]

"There are two kinds of fools; those who can't change their opinions and those who won't."
- Josh Billings

I've no idea who that bloke was but it is a recurring theme in this thread. :lol:

[vzsv6]

I don't have to get over myself, i have had vr and vt commodores, both were great cars. I am driving a falcon now and i am brand neutral, i buy what blows my whistle at the time. Lately its been a string of Fords. I am on this forum because the members are level headed opened minded people, unlike some other forums around the place.

Thats fine, I respect your opinion and I ask that you respect mine.


It would be the obvious and smart thing to do but it will never happen, he can't get past the badge. :rolleyes:

What I don't understand is you posting provocative posts such as this which are clearly trying to get at me, then come back on here acting all innocent... :rolleyes:

[NODDY347]

take it as you will, i've said all i want say off topic. If you want to continue with it pm me.

[vzsv6]

If you want to continue with it pm me.
I wouldn't waste my time to be honest.....

[Nobby]

so I suggest some of you look in the mirror ;)

Mate, we would, but all we can see is the rapidly shrinking nose of his SV6!

I had to, dont ban me. :D :lol:

[vzsv6]

Mate, we would, but all we can see is the rapidly shrinking nose of his SV6!

What, from your AU???!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Please, don't make us laugh so hard!!!!
Or does your body kit and Tickford wheels give it an extra 200rwkw :lol: :lol:

[NickS]

Because the claim that the 6 cylinder versions of the BF are better than VZ isn't opinion, it's fact. You can't dispute a fact with a false opinion.
I disagree, my Dad thinks his BMW 530i is better than my Coupe 4 ... I disagree with him. Cars are all about opinions, to say that the BA / BF Falcon is better than a VZ Commodore, and declare that an indisputable fact is about as one eyed as you can get.

Don't get me wrong, I think the BA / BF is a bloody good car. I am a Holden man through and through but I can see that the Falcon is an exceptional car for the money. However if given the choice I would take the VZ any day.

I rent cars for work about every 6 weeks, always either a Falcon or a Commodore, and to be honest the 6 cylinder in either car shits me. But the Commodore just suits me better, it feels a nicer car to drive. You may say that you think the BF is a better car ... fact, but in my OPINION the VZ is better.

Finally ... what the hell is a false opinion ??? Just because you disagree with him doesn't make your opinion valid and their opinion false :rolleyes:

[Stevotski]

although this thread has already turned to shit, here is a carsguide comparison between 380 and SV6


Cross-town rivals: Holden vs Mitsubishi
Bryan Littlely and Stuart Martin
29oct05

The hometown heroes are squaring off for a bout that is an automotive showdown of epic proportions.

While the passions may not run as deep as those battles witnessed at AAMI Stadium, the arrival of the southern-suburbs built 380 in the ring brings the fight right up to the northern-built Commodore, entered in this match in SV6 manual form.
Commodore has a large chunk of the valuable fleet market, Ford's share is up there as well, but Mitsubishi is hunting a bigger slice of the fleet and private action with the 380.

Bearing in mind the model cycles, which sees the 380 get in a couple of punches as a new contender before the Commodore VE can hit back from later next year, it would seem a slightly uneven bout.

It is clear, though, that both models – the 380 VRX and the SV6 – have some heavy punches to throw.

The ring: 370km of South Australian roads taking in tight, winding hills passes, freeway cruising, dirt tracks and the city snarl.

Regardless of the timing or market targeted, the sports variants of these large sedans give enthusiast-drivers a little bit extra when it comes to steering, handling, braking and point-to-point performance.

Price-wise the pair sit fairly close, with the Mitsubishi priced at $38,490 and the SV6 a little higher at $39,690.

In powerplant terms, the 380 throws its punches with a 3.8-litre single overhead cam V6 engine with four valves per cylinder, while a 3.6-litre all-alloy V6 has the same number of valves but double overhead cams drive the SV6.

The 1630kg 380 lays claim to 175kW of power at 5250rpm (DIN), while the Commodore's 1602kg SV6 boasts 190kW (ECE) at 6500rpm. Where the 380 makes up a little ground on the Holden is in torque – 343Nm at 4000rpm (DIN) for the 380 versus 340Nm (ECE) a little lower in the rev range, at 3200rpm.

Ford uses the DIN standard for power and torque measurements, and Toyota uses SAE for the Camry, so it will come down to a seat-of-the-pants feel if these four are on your shopping list.

The 380's V6 powerplant feels as though it has more low-down power, easily, smoothly and quickly pulling from 40km/h in fifth gear without fuss.

The Commodore has a good spread of torque but fails to pull off the same trick with the same degree of urge, but makes up for it as the revs rise, although the soundtrack is not as good as the advertisements would suggest.

The pay-off for the SV6's extra gear is on the open road, where the 110-120km/h cruising range see the tacho sitting around 2000rpm, whereas the 380's 3000rpm might mean overtaking is achieved without a downchange but the price is paid at the pump. The 380 VRX has a five-speed manual, while the SV6 gets an extra cog, as well as the addition of a limited slip differential. Both cars have traction control.

The 380 and SV6 both have nicely-notchy gearshifts with a direct action, but the action was heavier in the Holden than in the 380.

At the end of our loop, the average speeds were around 65km/h and the 380's trip computer was showing fuel being used at a rate of 12.2 litres/100km, while the SV6 indicated 11.1 litres/100km.

In the stopping department, the 380 uses ventilated discs all round, while the Commodore comes to a halt with ventilated front and solid rear discs.

Both reduce speed quickly on sealed roads with minimum ABS activation, but the dirt-road sections had been heavily watered and had the ABS rattling the middle pedal regularly on both vehicles.

Handling virtues are plentiful for both cars, with the 380 sitting on the road confidently and composed. Pushing harder on wet surfaces failed to seriously unsettle the 380, with only the strong torque curve betraying which wheels were doing the driving on dirt. The SV6 is more firmly-sprung and feels a little more nervous on uneven surfaces, but ignore that and the grip remains.

Ride quality points go to the 380, but it's a narrow victory, while the margin is even closer in the handling department.

The unsealed section of the drive had both cars wagging their tails – neither alarmingly if the driver was concentrating – with the SV6 getting kudos for the grin factor of rear-drive on dirt.

A drama with the previous Mitsubishi sedan was the warship-like turning circle, a problem which has been resolved to some extent but the Commodore still pips it by 0.2m.

The Commodore is 21mm longer at 4876mm, 2mm wider at 1842mm but the 380 is 40mm taller at 1480mm. The SV6 sits on a 2789mm wheelbase, the 380's is 2750mm.

Styling is a subject of personal taste, but it seems, at least to us, that the 380's interior has more appeal than the modular-looking and "plastic" feel of the Commodore.

Finishes in the 380 give it a touch more class and the controls – including cruise control, wipers, radio and climate control – are more functional and easier to use when compared with the Commodore.

The 380 also gets a six-stack CD player (which is MP3 compatible) in the dash over the SV6's one-disc player, there is no variable intermittent wiper function on the Commodore and it's also without climate control – having only standard airconditioning. Centre console power window controls on the Commodore, while functional, are a bit annoying as almost all cars with this function seem to have them on the driver's side door.

The neon-blue console lighting, with dashing red needles, are a pleasant touch on the 380 when compared to a dull, uninspiring Commodore dash.

The exterior skin of the vehicles has the Commodore presenting a refined and powerful look which, if it wasn't Australia's favourite large car and there were fewer of them on our roads, would stand out.

The 380 was an attention grabber but probably for different reasons at this stage of its life – there are too few on the road.

Other drivers showed considerable interest in the car. Mitsubishi's combination of Euro-styling with a bit of traditional Aussie muscle – noticeable in the stance of the 380 with its raised rear and slightly flared rear-wheel arches – is intriguing, but the Commodore pulls no punches when it comes to exterior styling. It is a true Australian-built car, made for a motoring public wanting a tough, gutsy and reliable machine.

THE WINNER IS: There are pros and cons to both vehicles but the 380 puts its nose just in front in enough areas – on-road manners among them – to make it a worthy choice.

CLASS COMPARISON

Mitsubishi 380 VR-X

Price: $38,490
Engine: 3.8-litre SOHC 24-valve V6
Power: 175kW at 5250rpm
Torque: 343Nm at 4000rpm
Transmission: Five-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Fuel consumption/capacity: 11.4 litres/100km (claimed), on test 12.2 litres/100km, tank 67 litres
0-100km/h: 7.6 seconds
Weight: 1630kg
Brakes: Four-wheel ventilated discs
Wheels 17in alloys

Holden VZ Commodore SV6

Price: $39,690
Engine: 3.6-litre DOHC 24-valve V6
Power: 190kW at 6500rpm
Torque: 340Nm at 3200rpm
Transmission: Six-speed manual, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption/capacity: 11.5 litres/100km (claimed), on test 11.1 litres/100km, tank 75 litres
0-100km/h: 6.9 seconds
Weight: 1602kg
Brakes: Four-wheel discs, front ventilated
Wheels: 17in alloys

Ford BF Falcon XR6

Price: $39,710
Engine: Four-litre DOHC 24-valve six-cylinder
Power: 190kW at 5250rpm
Torque: 383Nm at 2500rpm
Transmission: Six-speed manual or six-speed auto, rear-wheel drive
Fuel consumption/capacity: 10.9 litres/100km (average), tank 68 litres
0-100km/h: Not available
Weight: 1694kg
Brakes: Four-wheel discs, ventilated front
Wheels: 17in alloys

Toyota Camry Sportivo

Price: $37,500
Engine: Three-litre DOHC 24-valve V6
Power: 145kW at 5200rpm (SAE)
Torque: 284Nm at 4400rpm (SAE)
Transmission: Five-speed manual, four-speed automatic, front-wheel drive
0-100km/h: 8.3 seconds
Fuel consumption/capacity: 9.9 litres/100km (average), tank 70 litres
Weight: 1515kg
Brakes: Four-wheel discs, front ventilated
Wheels: 16in alloys

The Advertiser

Their opinion is that the 380 is just in front of the SV6, but then that is bloody disapointing for a car at the start of it's model life compared to a car at the end of its.

I haven't driven driven the 380- so I will reserve my judgement

[vzsv6]

Interesting to note is the sv6's fuel consumption figures of 11.1l/100km in this test compared to 13.0l/100km in the Wheels test. Yes, one is auto and one manual, but I wouldn't think the difference would be that significant...
11.1 is much more realistic though.... I wouldn't be suprised if Wheels were fudging the figures somewhere along the line...

[YLD57L]

I'd say they would be thrashing the cars too.

[BA$TAD]

interesting comparo with the 380 and the SV6. I don't mind the look of the 380, just a pity it is FWD. Now all that is needed is the next model Avalon with the 200kw V6 to come on board. A lot of car for the Aussie market to choose from. We're bloody spoiled.

In the end though I still think i would stay with the Falcon, IMO looks the classiest inside and out and I love the I6.

[vzsv6]

BA$TAD, the only time you would be able to watch an sv6 disappear in your mirror is if there is one parked behind you as you take off. :lol: Insult me if you like (not that I care), but remember there are a few other sv6 owners on this forum too.

[BA$TAD]

BA$TAD, the only time you would be able to watch an sv6 disappear in your mirror is if there is one parked behind you as you take off. :lol: Insult me if you like (not that I care), but remember there are a few other sv6 owners on this forum too.
yeah yeah yeah whatever...look i am not here to insult anyone. Maybe you think so, but then do you think. At least i don't sink to your level and send childish PM's like you have done to so many others. Get over yourself for once. :booty: :box: *BA$TAD PUTS VZSV6 back on ignore*

[Danv8]

Me thinks its time to lock this topic.

[Nobby]

BA$TAD, the only time you would be able to watch an sv6 disappear in your mirror is if there is one parked behind you as you take off. :lol: Insult me if you like (not that I care), but remember there are a few other sv6 owners on this forum too.

Quite true, but they dont display the same... hindered interlect as yourself.

Me, I'm an unashamed Ford fanboy who doesnt miss an opportunity to get in a cheap jibe every now again. I try to keep it good natured as often as possible and cop it on the chin whenever someone gets me good (even with the tired old "But you have an AU!!!oneone11one lolzersssss" rib-ticklers). You, you're just a imbecile. How you havent been banned for good is quite beyond me.

Yep the ol' AU would probably be beaten reasonably comfortably by an SV6 (perhaps not by yours though, you cant reach the pedals yet can you?), but I was never discussing the ability of my vehicle specifically anyway. That doesnt matter, go tell the big kids under the monkey bars that I said the AU would probably be beaten by your monster. You'll be the king of first recess, you champ. :lol:

[Nobby]

Me thinks its time to lock this topic.

Quite possibly.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise for my part in the threads demise.

[vzsv6]

Quite true, but they dont display the same... hindered interlect as yourself.

Me, I'm an unashamed Ford fanboy who doesnt miss an opportunity to get in a cheap jibe every now again. I try to keep it good natured as often as possible and cop it on the chin whenever someone gets me good (even with the tired old "But you have an AU!!!oneone11one lolzersssss" rib-ticklers). You, you're just a imbecile. How you havent been banned for good is quite beyond me.

Yep the ol' AU would probably be beaten reasonably comfortably by an SV6 (perhaps not by yours though, you cant reach the pedals yet can you?), but I was never discussing the ability of my vehicle specifically anyway. That doesnt matter, go tell the big kids under the monkey bars that I said the AU would probably be beaten by your monster. You'll be the king of first recess, you champ. :lol:




So you come on here preaching intellect then you give us posts like that??
You make some rather big claims for someone who has never met me and doesn't know me from a bar of soap...
Seems like you're speaking from experience... Maybe you should look a little closer to home. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[ShanghaiVZ]

Guys, enough already! someone has to have the last say don't they. Can someone be mature enough to just let it go! This thread WAS interesting!

[flappist]

Ah the memeories.....

When I was a little kid there were many windup toys available that kept myself and friends amused for hours. Simple things that when you found the right buttons you could just wind them up and they would buzz about all over the place with no real direction, control or purpose. When they slowed down you could just wind them up and off they would go again, over and over and over, same ferver and lack of direction.

I thought that they were all a part of history in this age of computers and electronics but it seems there are still some about......

[stew7700]

Must be a turbo bolted on the XT :stick: :)

[vzsv6]

How you havent been banned for good is quite beyond me.
Maybe because people have realised that it is deliberate sh*t stirrers like you and BA$TAD that are at the root of all this trouble.


Guys, enough already! someone has to have the last say don't they. Can someone be mature enough to just let it go! This thread WAS interesting!

I would be quite happy to do so. I let this go days ago but then somebody had to dig this thread up and start it all again..

EDIT: On that note that's all I have to say in this thread. :)

[Swordie]

Personally I think it's a matter of taste which is best between all the models.

Once a car has been around for 2 to 3 years you start learning about various issues which helps you understand some other differences.

Here's another review


Cross-town rivals: Holden vs Mitsubishi (http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/story_page/0,8269,17063241%255E21822,00.html)

[RATT]

I think those who are bragging about the falcon (motoring journos included) are doing it on the basis of it's on paper specification rather than its real world performance.
Example: On paper, the falcon's irs is far more technologically advanced than the commodores, however if you drive the cars without any knowledge of the specs, you would be hard pressed to notice any difference apart from a slightly softer ride in the falcon. The Commodore has even been judged the better handler in many comparisons.

And what is it with people carrying on about smoothness and quietness??? Being a performance oriented forum, 95% of people here would modify their cars with exhausts, cams, lowered suspension etc.. which would automatically cancel out the NVH qualities of a car. If we were so concerned about smoothness and NVH, we'd all be driving grandpa spec Avalons or something. :rolleyes:

Finally, I struggle to concieve how a motoring journalist's opinion can be regarded as a fact??? :rolleyes: I think it's time some people woke up out of their fantasy world and had a reality check. The Commodore is much better than your brainwashed mind would think.

Mate your hypocracy is laughable. Read your own post again! :confused:

You say the mags rate the cars on paper specs?!?!?!? So they never drive them right? How did you come to all your conclusions? :lol: You've driven a BF and VZ back to back right? NOT.

Regarding reduced NVH, that's what 95% of buyers want. They don't want noise. How many Commodores/Falcons have exhausts vs stock when you look around?? So I'm guessing you have an exhaust done on your car? Come on enlighten me..

[SV99]

Maybe because people have realised that it is deliberate sh*t stirrers like you and BA$TAD that are at the root of all this trouble.

EDIT: On that note that's all I have to say in this thread. :)



Have you had alook at the crap you write :booty:

I agree with what RATT has just said in his last post.

[SV99]

:bash:
Just another load of garbage, which is why I don't waste my money on these crappy publications. From what I have read and judging by the language used, you'd have to be blind freddy not to realise that the author of this article, whoever it is, is severely ford biased.
Wheels and Motor have absolutely no credibility with me.


And yes you were the one that started this bullshit. :bash:

[commomate]

Fact? Look, no-ones denying the Falcs seem to win mag comparos and in some categories: but fact is a little too strong.

It is a fact the Falcon uses more fuel. Arguably the Holden six is factually 'better' in that regard. The 175 is 15% better in some tests than the Falcon. The RACV even said Holden had understated economy comparing the two on a standard test loop.

It is a fact that Holden sixes outsell Falcons. You could argue this makes them factually 'better'.

Whether the car is better is far more subjective than factual, and involves more than just numbers - if nine out of ten roadtesters declare it better, 10% uncertainty is still enough to acquit an indicted criminal, although the probabability is that it is better. You could say '9 out of 10 roadtesters prefer the Falcon' and no-one can argue.

Unfortunately 9 out of 10 buyers don't - it's only something like 4 out of 10. So the Holden is 'factually' better there.

In one recent comparo between XR6 A4 and SV6 the conclusion was one car was better in some ways, the other better in others. The Falcon won 0-100 due to the SV6 having 2.87 rear vs 3.45, the SV6 was quicker once moving, quicker around a circuit and got the nod for handling and stock vs stock braked better. Falcon was smoother and better riding. Both got 4 stars. Doing comparisons of base wagons had the Commodore in front, performance and economy - even with the 175 and A4.

So like all generalisations, saying it is a 'fact' that all Falcon sixes are better than Commodores is actually wrong.

Is a $1250 six-speed auto in a large capacity car with a grunty motor a plus? The old car sat on 1800 revs @ 100km/h, the new doesn't seem to get any better economy judging by past tests - and the 1-2 tenths at the quarter or 0-100 could easily be the extra 8kw and 5 nm torque from the motor. You normally throw extra speeds at less-flexible motors to keep them in their powerbands - like the BMW M3 which has little low-down grunt but revs to 8500rpm. Put your foot down at 2,000rpm in top in that, and you get not much more than noise.

With motors like the Barra and Boss, which are not fast- or quick-spinning motors seemingly but supposedly have mountains of torque, you want them pulling hard from low-high revs - not swapping cogs. By undergearing motors with no over-rev capability they will run out of revs too fast, then the ECU has to close the FBW throttle to change up, losing momentum in the process.


acording to wheels

commodore diff 2.87
falcon diff 2.73

fuel consumption

commodore 13.0 l/100km
falcon 13.2 l/100km

and better not use the what sells more is best other wise someone will bring up that mcdonalds is the most popular food

oops sorry i just did

[Dacious]

Check specs for BF XR6 A4 here:

BF XR6 Auto (http://www.carsales.com.au/pls/carsales/!cs_content.research_specs?vehicle_code=20050920.1 4:29:40&current_rec=8&make_name=FORD&model_name=FALCON)

Final drive ratio for A4 is 3.45:1. I'd presumed the A6 is the same. All the other versions of the BF XR6 and XR6T, 4A, 6M, use 3.45:1.

Doesn't make sense that the less powerful and torquey n/a version uses a much taller rear-end. It has to be a misprint - especially as the 6A has a taller top gear but pulls virtually the same revs at 100ks.

Say what you like about popularity: fact is the Commodore still sells ~60% more. People have the opportunity to testdrive both: if they were buying purely from recommendations, more would buy Falcons, as since the BA came out the auto publications have been unremitting in saying they are 'better' cars and the Commodore is comparatively outdated.

There must be some reason why people keep buying VZs. Truth is, having been in/driven VYs and BA work and co-workers lease vehicles there is really precious little difference in them for average commuter use.

I haven't been in a VZ - guys at work with them as lease cars can't reconcile the comments of the media about 'rough', 'harsh' and unrefined. Biggest complaint in ordinary use (remember these people don't make a habit of redlining them) is they are too much like an electric motor, with nothing but some intake noise in the SV6. One guy went from XR6 on SalSac to an Impulse SV6 this year - his opinion is the SV6 feels quicker especially when rolling, is 10% more economical for his family's use and steers/handles slightly more sharply but rides not quite as smoothly.

He also says they are not worlds apart in virtually any way. He liked the XR6 enough to want to buy it at auction, but it disappeared from the system - someone snaffled it, as it was virtually unmarked with perfect service record.

[gsw]

There must be some reason why people keep buying VZs.

It's called marketing which has given Holden fan's/loyal supporters for the next generation of people not to mention the AU.

[Dacious]

It's called marketing which has given Holden fan's/loyal supporters for the next generation of people not to mention the AU.

But Ford does more marketing! And it's won the touring car crown several times in a row with the BA, and more COTY awards from magazines and motoring organisations. Why has it failed to capitalise on this leg-up? Is the Ford buying experience bad? Do Ford salesmen all have halitosis or something?

Prices I see in the paper show Ford rebates and dealer ads with competitive prices for the same trim levels and specs. FPVs kill HSV for buy prices. You can buy Fords with more gee-gaws like coloured dashes and fancy gadgets like the starter button. Fords come in way more colours (although IMO a lot miss the boat).

Maybe, just maybe, people go to try and buy - and what Holden sells just suits them better?

This is just all my opinion - YMMV. Maybe other people just feel like I do?

[RICHO]

Holden build 30% more cars than Ford

A better measure than volume is margin per unit, or even better the "richness" of the sales mix.

Fords mix, especially the XR's is higher than Holden's at the moment and their average profit per unit is also higher. Without expanding their plant they really can't do any better than sell everything they make and maintain as rich a mix as possible.

This means that Holden will always sell more commodores than Ford sell Falcons, does it make the Commodore a better car?? Of course not, just as a magazine review doesn't make the Falcon a better buy.

When you talk marketing, your not talking colours, stripes, winning races etc, much of which including awards etc ends up as PR like activity. Marketing is split between fixed and variable. The Fixed component a firm $$ value that marketing departments have to spend, while the Variable component is set at a $value per vehicle sold. The variable component is typically spent on subsidies, discounts, free fuel offers, special value packs etc. These all fall within Ford's / Holden's Marketing spend.

Holden spend more marketing $$ per unit sold than Ford at the present time, but it's nothing like the $$ per unit that Ford were spending to shift AU's.

At the end of the day most people buy on price...most Falcons / Commodores fall into a sub $40k category, a very price sensitive market segment, and in the absence of brand bias the two cars are regarded as perfect subsititutes for one another. Behind the wheel most buyers couldn't tell the difference and will buy the car they get the best deal on.

My 2 cents

[Venom XR]

FPVs kill HSV for buy prices.

...and FPV now outsell HSVs.

When private sales come into it, the sales ratio is probably not that different. Nowadays, we need to do Falcon+Terri vs Commo+Adventra, since each has the newer crossover vehicle potential to cannabalise sales from the respective sedan.

When it comes down to it, both Ford and Holden are a business, and business is about $$. Ford makes more $$ profit per unit than Holden does (recently confirmed by CarsGuide - by how much, I don't know...) - so selling less units doesn't necessarily mean business is worse. Only us punters care about sales figures as a standalone mathematical comparison, since we're not privvy to the financials of each company.

For example, I would think Toyota made less on each Corolla it sold in the month that it beat Commodore and Falcon.

On the other hand, selling more units means the potential for more repeat sales if the experience is decent/good (as I think Holden enjoy now), as well as increased revenue potential from spares sales, as well as the respective dealer netowkrs benefitting from more servicing revenue, etc.

[NinetySix]

monthly sales charts certainly say a lot about how successful a company is in selling cars ( :rolleyes: ) ... but does it say much about quality?


in comparison, any time i look at what the months top selling albums and singles (local and worldwide) i cant help but rarely ever see anything i like... but hey i guess anthony callea could sell cars too :lol:

[payaya]

All this talk about Magna getting fatter, Falcon getting fatter etc, dont people understand?? When a new model is released, the weight of a car usually goes up!

From AU to BA weight increase, think about most other cars out there, they all are getting heavier.

Why has the Holden not gotten heavier? The chassis, most of the mechanics are old school! holden have not had a substantial weight increase because the car, has remained the same for ages!

Early 90's saw the intro of IRS, 3.8L V6 etc. so far more than a decade the Suspension, tranny has remained virtually unchanged. The biggest change, was the into of the VT, but still the suspension etc remained the same.

Ford deserve credit, they have gone from the Solid rear end, to wishbones, now to the control blade. It all adds up, weight and more weight!

Mitsubishi has gotten heavier, for that reason again! VE? You bet on more weight, even use of lighter materials, it will still be substantially heavier than the VZ. The Mercs, BMW, all with the use to lighter, more expensive materials, still weight a crap load! It just happens.

Mags have rated the Ford the better car, why?? Becuase ford have made Substantial improvements over the years. Should it be otherwise?

Anyone with half a brain, would know the BF is a substantially better car, thats the the VE is coming in, its more than overdue for a change!

[commomate]

It's called marketing which has given Holden fan's/loyal supporters for the next generation of people

Have to remember that most (not all) car brand loyalty is stemmed into us at a early age therefore, most car marketing is done 5-10 years in advanced

Just think when did we all become Holden/Ford fans and how many years after that did we actually buy our first NEW car off the showroom floor?

So Ford may only benefit in many years to come when all of the new fans can afford a new car as Holden have been doing in the last few years from earlier race track success and the like


Does this make sense?

[gsw]

Have to remember that most (not all) car brand loyalty is stemmed into us at a early age therefore, most car marketing is done 5-10 years in advanced

Just think when did we all become Holden/Ford fans and how many years after that did we actually buy our first NEW car off the showroom floor?

So Ford may only benefit in many years to come when all of the new fans can afford a new car as Holden have been doing in the last few years from earlier race track success and the like


Does this make sense?

Yep and totally agree, GP used to say it probably will take Ford up to 40 years to recover from their poor performance during the 90's. Kids who grew up with Holden pillows etc will buy their first car which will be a Holden and that then might pass onto their children who will buy their first Holden etc.

[fester1]

Had a bit of a laugh reading the posts here so now that things have settled down a tad I thought I'd give my view.

Been a VZ SV6 owner for over a year now and frankly I'm not surprised it got a so-so wrap from Wheels. The engine and A5 box I loved so much when i first drove the car just don't sit well in the old body. After 20K the induction noise is still bloody awful and the lag in pick up is a PITA. All is great when you're on an open road but around the city its very annoying. However, the ride and handling is near perfect despite an old suspension set up.

Inside the cabin its pretty obvious that things need an overhaul. The mix and match dash just doesn't sit right with me and that pinnacle cover remains an eyesore. But ergonomically things are where they should be so that's a plus. Reviewers seem to hate the Cruise control switch but to me it works really well. The intrusive boot hinges are a minor thing that you learn to live with but curse when you try and pack a full load.

Looks wise the SV6 looks great on the road but the XR6 just looks much a much better integrated package to me, particularly from the rear where the exhaust and light set up looks close to perfect. The Magna doesn't do it for me and the perspex rear lens cover on the up spec model looks hideous.


So i'm not surprised that the SV6 took a beating from the revamped XR6 and the new Magna. The SV6 is a good car - nothing more, nothing less. There's no doubt that its competitors have raised the bar and the VE has got to be a big improvement over the VZ to beat them - thank God for that I say.

There's my 2c - but of course 2c is rounded down to nothing these days.

[stockholm]

I dont know if someone has pointed this out cos I got tired trying to read allll the posts on this thread, BUT..

in the october issue of wheels they do a full 24page (or something) review of the 380 and give it the thumbs up, lots of praise. Why would they just bag the crap out of it next month, even if it is when compared to other cars...????

[ls1ozstyle]

I saw a fully marked 380 highway patrol car today :confused: . Is this right? It was a 380, it was fully marked, and it did seem to have all the highway patrol features.



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[Chris52]

I dont know if someone has pointed this out cos I got tired trying to read allll the posts on this thread, BUT..

in the october issue of wheels they do a full 24page (or something) review of the 380 and give it the thumbs up, lots of praise. Why would they just bag the crap out of it next month, even if it is when compared to other cars...????


Seems to be like that for important model releases - talked up for the relaese issue one month , then brought crashing down the next. I think the initial favourable reveiw has something to do with selling magazines and not pissing off major car companies regardless of how unbiased they claim to be.

Cheers

Chris.