FPV - A Different attitude

[seldo]

I was interested and impressed to see a thread on FF started by the CEO of FPV warning of potential oil-pump problems with FPVs and XR8s when using a UD pulley. Pity Holden can't acknowledge that as enthusiasts we mod our cars and offer some constructive advice now and then....

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26133

Mods - Following the Mods warning about posting links to other forums I hope this doesn't cause any issues. If so, pull the pin.:)

[flappist]

Yes it is great that Happy Jack takes the time to do this. He is a real performance enthusiest and the actual reason that the F6 even exists.

If you read the thread you will also notice that several people are argueing with him. This is quite amusing, I suspect that the CEO of the company that designs and builds a vehicle might have access to a little bit more information than most of the internet "performance gurus".

On the other hand HOLDEN have a section on LS1, something that FORD don't do. Maybe both teams can learn from the other.

[muzza]

I hate to suggest but it makes an interesting read - David has taken an interest in advising Ford V8 owners about a certain mod, but it didn't take long for a few to jump down his throat, but most of the whingers are making the classic mistake - they are arguing from their own point of view (naturally) but saying "how can this be true - my engine has had it exhaust manifold nuts polished and I rev it to 10 000 rpm all the time and nothing's gone wrong with the oil pump blah blah" totally ignoring the fact that they have limited experience with just their own engine or maybe one other.

FPV pump out hundreds of the things and get a global view on how many come back with problems and what might have caused them - possibly the underdriven harmonic balancers. Only they have the stats.

Anyway, I kinda get the feeling that the FPV boys are enthusiasts chasing improvements but they dont quite have the same level of base engine to work off as we do with the LS1 - that's my own feeling anyway.

[JHP1]

Would the use of an under driven pulley on the LS1 have any similar side effects?

[ratter]

I hate to suggest but it makes an interesting read - David has taken an interest in advising Ford V8 owners about a certain mod, but it didn't take long for a few to jump down his throat, but most of the whingers are making the classic mistake - they are arguing from their own point of view (naturally) but saying "how can this be true - my engine has had it exhaust manifold nuts polished and I rev it to 10 000 rpm all the time and nothing's gone wrong with the oil pump blah blah" totally ignoring the fact that they have limited experience with just their own engine or maybe one other.

FPV pump out hundreds of the things and get a global view on how many come back with problems and what might have caused them - possibly the underdriven harmonic balancers. Only they have the stats.

Anyway, I kinda get the feeling that the FPV boys are enthusiasts chasing improvements but they dont quite have the same level of base engine to work off as we do with the LS1 - that's my own feeling anyway.

Some of the guys having the "discussion" are questioning why FPV are blaming the under drives, when there have been a few oil pump gear failures in standard cars.
One of the guys mentioned about revving his motor to 7000 rpm and runs 12.3's to high light the point that his motor is probably more abused than any others and has not had an oil pump gear failure, the same member also has links to the factory and knows about paint chips from cams getting into the oil pumps which possibly may be a cause of some failures.

The boss motor not being the same level of base motor as the LS1 is probably a correct statement, it is probably better. Some of the ford owners are getting higher rwkw than most of the LS1, even though it is a smaller motor and the LS1 has had a lot more time gone into it by some of australias leading tuners which are on this forum.
The track times are slowly catching up, mainly thanks to Chris, even though the car is still over weight and still being developed.

Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but if you think that 1 type of car is better than another because of what badge it wears, you will miss out on some good cars, (although it's always good for an argument ;) )


:D

[seldo]

........The boss motor not being the same level of base motor as the LS1 is probably a correct statement, it is probably better........
This thread was intended to comment on the different attitudes towards modifications by Ford and Holden. If you want to start another childish Ford/Holden bitch-fest, go back to FF and do it there - they are used to it...

[Dacious]

Would the use of an under driven pulley on the LS1 have any similar side effects?

No, the LSx oil pump drive is pressed to the crank snout and always turns at the same speed, so always pumps the same volume per rpm.

[YLD57L]

This thread was intended to comment on the different attitudes towards modifications by Ford and Holden. If you want to start another childish Ford/Holden bitch-fest, go back to FF and do it there - they are used to it...

Don't add fuel to the fire. It was muzza's comment that made him justify his own point of view which is fair enough.

[seldo]

No, the LSx oil pump drive is pressed to the crank snout and always turns at the same speed, so always pumps the same volume per rpm.
Whilst I have to admit that I didn't read the whole Ford thread I gather that they were saying that the Ford problem was caused due to the removal of the original damper which was carefully tuned to negate the crank's natural harmonics and replacement with an after-market under-drive balancer that did not satisfactorily damp-out the crank's harmonics. So it was really a harmonics issue rather than a rpm/volume issue..

[Dacious]

Ah, OK. I thought maybe the oilpump drove off the belt - I had a 1600cc mitsu which turned the oil pump off the cambelt, IIRC.

[XLR8 V8]

Mods - Following the Mods warning about posting links to other forums I hope this doesn't cause any issues. If so, pull the pin.:)


We consider Ford Forums to be "Friends of ls1.com.au" and as such have no issues with links being exchanged back and forth. Our issue is with those who have their own Holden-related forum and come here for the sole purpose of advertising it and gaining membership.

[muzza]

This thread was intended to comment on the different attitudes towards modifications by Ford and Holden. If you want to start another childish Ford/Holden bitch-fest, go back to FF and do it there - they are used to it...

Thanks Seldo - my intention was not, as you say, intended to start any dick length measuring contest, merely a comment upon the attitudes of some people on FF who have taken offense to some well meaning advice from the guy who might just have a different perspective (2 eyed instead of 1 ) upon a Ford v8 problem.

Anyway, it is merely my opinion that the LS1 seems to be a better base for hotting - there's no denying piston slap/oil consumption issues but I cant recall catastrophic failures of parts such as oil pump drives or similar being one.

Given the lower capacity, the Ford tuners are doing a very good job power-wise and I'm sure Chris knows more than one end of the crank from the other, however he came across as being a bit aggressive in response to suggestions of under-driven HB possibly causing failure.

However he has not spent hundreds of hours with his engines strapped in a dyno cell with an aftermarket U/D HB on them just to test the durability - neither has FPV but that's the point - the engine was designed and tested with a specific HB on it to best quell most of the pulses of the engines crank. Maybe those engines, being more undersquare have a greater need for it - who knows? Does it have any implications for use on LS1's - again, who knows?

But I guess I'd be taking some notice and opening my mind to other possibilities rather than shooting down someone who just may be right?

[ratter]

This thread was intended to comment on the different attitudes towards modifications by Ford and Holden. If you want to start another childish Ford/Holden bitch-fest, go back to FF and do it there - they are used to it...


Not trying to start any holden Vs Ford bitch fest (did you read the full post? )
Everybody has there own opinions and they quite often vary from the next person, doesn't mean your right and he's wrong or vice versa.

Attitudes on both forums are very similar, some people are one eyed and can't be swayed to admit the others product is as good and some cases better. Some members are smart enough to accept that a car can be good or parts of a car can be better than the brand they chose to purchase/follow.

I can accept that the ford motor is getting the rwkw's but the LS1 is kicking it's butt at the track. I think the front of the GT/GTP/Pursuit looks great, but the rear of the commodore ute looks better than the falcon ute, it's all about opinions and facts.

I know guys that will not accept that a late model car is better than their old skool car. I feel sorry for them because they are missing out on some fine cars and driving pleasures, the same can be said if someone refuses to believe another brand of car is as good as theirs.

Anyway back to the subject


:D

[seldo]

Muzza & Ratter: Sorry, I possibly over-reacted because I've been looking at FF a bit lately and have been disappointed with what I think has been a high proportion of immature and baseless slandering of anyone or anything that dares to question the undoubted superiority of the blue oval in every field - no matter what the facts say. As far as the Boss vs LS1/2 goes, that's an argument that has been done to death in a thousand posts, and despite the evidence and the reality, will always only fall in favour of the loyalty of each protagonist, so let's not go there again... On this site we all know that the LS1/2 is better...;) :stick: :) No, seriously, they both have their good points and whilst it is generally accepted that the LS1/2 is as good as a pushrod engine comes, the Boss unit has the benefits on paper with dohc, vvt etc. But, at the track, when the flag drops, the bullsh1t stops ... Sorry - no more...:)
The FF poster Chris certainly seems passioanate about them and good luck to him for his loyalty and dedication, and it seems lately - his good results.. :cheers:

[ratter]

:D

Theres plenty of d#cks on most forums




p.s. No vvt on boss 5.4 :bash:




:D