LS1 AFTER 31st DECEMBER 2005

[Pickles]

There's been lots of talk on this forum that LS1 cannot be used after 31/12/05, because it is not emission legal after that date, which is now just under 7 weeks away!
Does this mean no LS1s in Holdens after 31/12, & if so what engine will they use from 1/1/06?
I can't understand why they couldn't make it legal- surely it's only a fuel/tuning issue. Anyway there's not much time to go, I've seen nothing in the press--So what do you guys think will be the V8 in VZ from 1/1/06?
Cheers, Pickles.

[Ryzz]

I didnt know it would be illegal to use the LS1, i knew they were phasing them out due to compliance issues with the new Euro Emissions laws.

[VY sv8 CLUBBY]

There's been lots of talk on this forum that LS1 cannot be used after 31/12/05, because it is not emission legal after that date, which is now just under 7 weeks away!


Does this mean that we can't drive our cars any more because they will not be legal :confused: :confused:

[mikedawg]

Does this mean that we can't drive our cars any more because they will not be legal :confused: :confused:
as long as the motor is still in the car that it left the factory with and all compliance plates are all legit there will be no probs.it only applies to engines after that date,hence why there is a new motor[wot ever ls modle it be]being released.thats my understanding anyway.

[Ghia351]

I also believe EuroIII compliance includes noise levels.
For whats it's worth as a rumour and to be treated as such but it makes it interesting and posted on FF by a Holden employee (shamed by his own admission)
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=26050&page=2&pp=25

This is fact.
Euro III Alloytech V6 VZs will start production in December. 2500 cars are programmed to be built before the new year.
Euro III Gen IV 6 litre V8 VZs are starting production in January.

[minux]

Euro IV will certainly be interesting. Myself , moreso my boss are part of natroads, the conversion costs that may be made compulsory for eur 4 are an absolute joke(2007/2008)

[seldo]

There is no problem with existing cars or existing engines. In fact, if Holden chose to, (and they won't) they could actually build 6 months' supply of LS1s between now and December and sell them next year. The problem would be that the cars would have to be fitted with ADR Compliance Plates stating that they were 05 models which of course would make them difficult to move. And any way, there is a very good argument to say that if you were 6 months away from introducing a completely new car in which there was a huge investment, it makes good sense to introduce the new engine in a short-run VZII and get it out into the market place early to sort any potential problems before they taint the new model. Did I say new engine...? My tip is that we will see a Gen iv of 6 litres and probably based on the L76 VVT DOD engine sheduled for the Chev Tahoe in which it puts out 264kw, which is a handy output and also still leaves a suitable gap to the HSV's 297kw LS2, so no-one's nose gets out of joint. Then, for VE HSV there is also a 6.2l version which develops 298kw and helps with commonality of parts and service. With VVT it also should have a heap of potential... ;) ;), nudge, nudge. There is also a 5.3l version (RPO LC9) which still has a handy 238kw and could be called upon as an intial version or even a price/economy leader. This is all just educated and reasoned guessing, so I might have egg on my face, but..I don't think so.
For further info look here
http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/p...L%209-15-05.htm

[180sx]

It sounds very similar to the emission rules that came into Japan a couple of years ago, hence why the GTR, Silvia/200sx etc. stopped production.

[HFV6]

Does it seem totally ridiculous that Holden would stop producing V8's for 6-9 months until the launch of VE? With sales overall dropping, particularly those of V8 models, maybe they wouldnt stand to lose that much. They have to do something> either introduce cat and ecu modifications as a running change (wouldn't take much as EuroIII is year's old in Europe), or stop producing the engine, or introduce an engine that meets the reg's. The first option seems more plausible from a business perspective to me. Could even act as a boost to initial VE sales given that the engine would be unavailable for a significanrt period of time.

[VY2 LS1]

There is no problem with existing cars or existing engines. In fact, if Holden chose to, (and they won't) they could actually build 6 months' supply of LS1s between now and December and sell them next year. The problem would be that the cars would have to be fitted with ADR Compliance Plates stating that they were 05 models which of course would make them difficult to move. And any way, there is a very good argument to say that if you were 6 months away from introducing a completely new car in which there was a huge investment, it makes good sense to introduce the new engine in a short-run VZII and get it out into the market place early to sort any potential problems before they taint the new model. Did I say new engine...? My tip is that we will see a Gen iv of 6 litres and probably based on the L76 VVT DOD engine sheduled for the Chev Tahoe in which it puts out 264kw, which is a handy output and also still leaves a suitable gap to the HSV's 297kw LS2, so no-one's nose gets out of joint. Then, for VE HSV there is also a 6.2l version which develops 298kw and helps with commonality of parts and service. With VVT it also should have a heap of potential... ;) ;), nudge, nudge. There is also a 5.3l version (RPO LC9) which still has a handy 238kw and could be called upon as an intial version or even a price/economy leader. This is all just educated and reasoned guessing, so I might have egg on my face, but..I don't think so.
For further info look here
http://media.gm.com/us/gm/en/news/p...L%209-15-05.htm



Seldo,

Everything you say makes sense, and I fully agree with what you say, however I just dont understand how the word of a new engine hasn't got out. I wonder if there are any of the new engines that have the same engine mounts etc so that the change-over would be straight forward. Within the next 5 weeks the 2006 V8's would have to be crated over here to supply 2006 post Xmas. I know they use just in time processing now but there must be dispatch orders that will give the game away appearing in the near future. Certainly will make for an interesting pre-Xmas.

[SSZ-57L]

There will be no Vz series2 (reliable source)
And the 6litre will be in the VE oct 06....

And the GTS will make a comeback with the LS7 7.0litre in 07 :)

[NinetySix]

Does it seem totally ridiculous that Holden would stop producing V8's for 6-9 months until the launch of VE? With sales overall dropping, particularly those of V8 models, maybe they wouldnt stand to lose that much. They have to do something> either introduce cat and ecu modifications as a running change (wouldn't take much as EuroIII is year's old in Europe), or stop producing the engine, or introduce an engine that meets the reg's. The first option seems more plausible from a business perspective to me. Could even act as a boost to initial VE sales given that the engine would be unavailable for a significanrt period of time.

maybe they will delete the V8 option all together. worked well for ford :lol:

[Danv8]

maybe they will delete the V8 option all together. worked well for ford :lol:



Wash your mouth out! :lol:

[seldo]

Does it seem totally ridiculous that Holden would stop producing V8's for 6-9 months until the launch of VE? With sales overall dropping, particularly those of V8 models, maybe they wouldnt stand to lose that much. Except that meanwhile Ford just keep pumping them out and why would Holden just abrogate their market share and hand it to Ford on a platter?
They have to do something> either introduce cat and ecu modifications as a running change (wouldn't take much as EuroIII is year's old in Europe), Why outlay a lot of time and money to bring an old engine up to current spec and then throw it all away again in 9 months' time when the new engine is introduced?

nor stop producing the engine, I would think they are already committed
or introduce an engine that meets the reg's. It's coming any way, why not introduce it now and get it de-bugged in the old the car?

[seldo]

Seldo,

Everything you say makes sense, and I fully agree with what you say, however I just dont understand how the word of a new engine hasn't got out. I wonder if there are any of the new engines that have the same engine mounts etc so that the change-over would be straight forward. Within the next 5 weeks the 2006 V8's would have to be crated over here to supply 2006 post Xmas. I know they use just in time processing now but there must be dispatch orders that will give the game away appearing in the near future. Certainly will make for an interesting pre-Xmas.
I read in another thread recently that Holden received a shipment of 30 of these engines recently. Maybe they are just going to play with those...;)

[clubbieboy]

I've just been talking to our Holden Rep (I work in a dealership ) and the LS2 IS what Holden are going to use as of the 1st of January 2006. He's not 100% on power outputs but believes it will be around the 270kw mark to keep it below HSV. Also strong rumour that VE HSV will use 6.2L with in excess of 300kw. Man I feel for all the VZ HSV owners out there - Holden's done it to you again :bash:
Cheers,
Cluubieboy

[muzza]

Holden, if they use the ls2 (not the L76) can quite easily nobble it with a crap restrictive exhaust and rich tune - they seem to be good at that - to "only" 270kw!!!

Poor HSV people - gonna get gazumped on power again - unless they get a bit of edit/DiFillipo help to stay ahead of course.

[Danv8]

Lets wait and see whats actually going to happen before yelling the sky is falling the sky is falling for the HSV crowed.

Speculation is next to useless to me. ;)

[dean]

Holden, if they use the ls2 (not the L76) can quite easily nobble it with a crap restrictive exhaust and rich tune - they seem to be good at that - to "only" 270kw!!!

Poor HSV people - gonna get gazumped on power again - unless they get a bit of edit/DiFillipo help to stay ahead of course.


If they made them any richer than they are now, they probably wouldnt run :bash:

[Stevotski]

Ho
Poor HSV people - gonna get gazumped on power again - unless they get a bit of edit/DiFillipo help to stay ahead of course.

who would be more pissed off would be MY04 VZ SS buyers - MY05 adds climate etc then discounts nearly $2K rrp in SS-Z, MY06 possibly adds LS2

You won't be able to look at a VZ SS and know what it has or has not, which may be a good thing for MY04 owners

[Pickles]

There will be no Vz series2 (reliable source)
And the 6litre will be in the VE oct 06....

And the GTS will make a comeback with the LS7 7.0litre in 07 :)
I've got no problem with any of that. BUT YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION!!!---WHAT V8 WILL THEY USE FROM 1st JANUARY 2006, UNTIL VE RELEASE? Cheers, Pickles.

[SS_Fury]

I've got no problem with any of that. BUT YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION!!!---WHAT V8 WILL THEY USE FROM 1st JANUARY 2006, UNTIL VE RELEASE? Cheers, Pickles.

5 ltr :lol:

[clubbieboy]

I've got no problem with any of that. BUT YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION!!!---WHAT V8 WILL THEY USE FROM 1st JANUARY 2006, UNTIL VE RELEASE? Cheers, Pickles.
Like I said in my earlier post mate, the GENIV LS2 6.0L V8 is being used in Holden's from the 01/01/06. ;)

[HFV6]

I have to say i just don't agree with that assertion. Put it this way> there is 0 possibility that Holden would introduce a new series that close to a major new model launch, therefore they would have to introduce it as a running change and that would also be nonsensical. If they will use LS2 as of january 1st how exactly will they go about introducing it?

[clubbieboy]

If they will use LS2 as of january 1st how exactly will they go about introducing it?[/QUOTE]

Not sure HF, only passing on the info I was given by our regional Manager, you'd like to think the people at the region would have some idea as to what is going on (at least some of the time anyway.............................. :confused: )

[Pickles]

Like I said in my earlier post mate, the GENIV LS2 6.0L V8 is being used in Holden's from the 01/01/06. ;)
Thank you, But I don't agree with you on the LS2 score, and as far as 6 litre in VZ, I don't think so, but I've got no REAL information, so that's only my opinion. Cheers, Pickles.

[aurora_ls2]

Just floating an idea...

What if Holden was to cease production of V8 models and inform dealers that potential customers wanting a V8 are to be offered the Clubsport. To meet demand Holden takes on a proportion of the workload to assist HSV(I think this has been done before with HSV exports).

By doing this Holden maintains its obligations to HSV(regarding LS2), reduces unnecessary costs and maintains its market position in the V8 segment without disclosing details of VE.

Edit: hmm, but the utes don't change for another 2 years, so it could be justified.

[cwhast]

I have to say i just don't agree with that assertion. Put it this way> there is 0 possibility that Holden would introduce a new series that close to a major new model launch, therefore they would have to introduce it as a running change and that would also be nonsensical. If they will use LS2 as of january 1st how exactly will they go about introducing it?
I would like to agree with it, but it doesn't seem viable enough. Although Holden may introduce the new engine as a running change (see VTII), it would seem weird to do it so close to a major model launch. Only 7½ weeks until we'll know for sure, but it'll be leaked before then.

Anyone out there who knows (or has a reliable source), please spill it.

[Ghia351]

Considering the time it takes to ship from N.A. and not knowing how much Holden holds in stock here of any V8 engines, whatever is going into Commodores after 1/1/06 must be on water or about to leave although with the Xmas rush and the recent troubles on the docks here it would definately cause some heartburn to the logistics/production planners. Congrats to Holden for keeping it so secret. It just goes to show whenever you get some leak a long way out from the release date it comes from the "company" as part of a marketing stategy...or am I too cynical?

[Carby650]

This is all very interesting. I refer to my recent new post today "HSV or VE delema". As you may all be aware HSV are offering VZ Clubbies at under $52k. Maybe this is due to an engine change for 2006.

[hogs]

Evening,

Hey, Pickles and anyone else, read my other posts!
As previously stated, I will eat humble pie but gee, speculation is mounting from various angles.
Not going to repeat myself, but 6.0 litre??? from Vz11!

Cheers,

Hogs, :cool:

[Marco]

A couple of points that may or may not influence the forum's thinking (ah, written like a true public servant...)

1. Holden had planned VE for a March 06 release initially, and two months without a V8 to sell probably would have been neither here nor there. They have probably had to come up with a stop-gap solution in the meantime since the VE launch got put back to September. This could mean Gen IV, or it could mean strangling the Gen III to make it meet emissions regs. However, as the Gen III went out of production a little while ago (or so I'm told) and Holden may or may not have ordered enough to last until late next year, the Gen IV option is more likely in my opinion.

2. The VN Commodore, released in August 1988, had no V8 option at all until about March 1989. That's about eight months with no V8 to sell. So it has happened before, but at the start of a new model, not at the end of an old one.

3. Off the wall option that I just thought up: a new HSV Manta to fill the SS gap until VE. Unlikely, but I just thought of it then.

[Rick76]

3. Off the wall option that I just thought up: a new HSV Manta to fill the SS gap until VE. Unlikely, but I just thought of it then.

There is no need for that as the HSV dealers are already discounting VZ Clubsport to close on SS RRP prices. :)

[Devil CV8]

There was also no V8 for a few months when the VL was introduced... so there has been a precedence for no V8... Not sure they could get away with it succesfully now though.

Although if you think about it, if you want a holden coupe you will soon need to buy a HSV, maybe the option will be if you want a V8 you will need to buy a HSV. But then what about highway patrol cars...
many questions, few answers... just have to wait and see.

[BadMac]

I don't know about 1/1/2006, but I agree it would be prudent to get the new engine in and shake it down so VE has a smooth launch.

I also don't know for sure, but a couple of the people who post on this forum do (you know who you are!!!) and have stated what will be in VE. They have said the engine will be the L76 (even though in the USA its a truck engine or SUV at least). I agree and heres why:

Its 6.0l, its Euro III (and possibly IV).
It is aluminum to help keep the VE from putting on too much weight.
It produces good HP (14Kw up on current SS) at 264 standard.
Its got VVT (which matches FORD 4.0l and exceeds the 5.4l).
Its got DOD which raises the bar (and can be made to seem sexy and green).
It can be speced in 4.8l 5.3l 6.0l and 6.2l (6.2l maybe for HSV).
It runs on 91 and some versions can run on gasoline/ethernol blends.
The 5.3 version has 15/20MPG (city/highway) pushing a big fat yank SUV, its only going to be better pushing a 1700ish Kg VE (10l/100Km combined!).

By the way for anybody confused LS2 IS NOT L76 although both are Gen IV 6.0l, LS2 is the current HSV engine. L76 is a newish engine. :)

Remember Holden and HSV have stated VE will not get LS2 what they didn't say is that it will get L76 instead, they never said it wouldn't be 6.0l!!! ;)

Mark

[Carby650]

Mark. You are scaring me...Stop talking too much sence. I'm not used to it... But seriously, I'm mising something here. What is the major difference between the LS2 and L76.

[BadMac]

LS2:
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/whats%20new/06%20car%20eng/06_PWT_LS2.pdf

Can't find the PDF for the L76 but here is (a repeat) the information on the new engines for 2007.
4.8L iron block (RPO LY2), rated at 290 horsepower (216 kw)*
5.3L iron block (RPO LY5) with Displacement On Demand technology, rated at 320 horsepower (238 kw)* (including E85-capable version – RPO LMG)
5.3L aluminum block (RPO LC9) with Displacement On Demand technology and E85 capability, rated at 320 horsepower (238 kw)*
6.0L iron block (LY6) heavy-duty engine with variable valve timing, rated at 350 horsepower (260 kw)*
6.0L aluminum block (L76) with Displacement On Demand technology and variable valve timing, rated at 355 horsepower (264 kw)*
6.2L aluminum block (L92) with variable valve timing, capable of 380 and 400 horsepower (283 kw to 298 kw)*


LS7: (for a bonus)
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/whats%20new/06%20car%20eng/06_PWT_LS7.pdf

[M&Ms]

1. Holden had planned VE for a March 06 release initially, and two months without a V8 to sell probably would have been neither here nor there. They have probably had to come up with a stop-gap solution in the meantime since the VE launch got put back to September. This could mean Gen IV, or it could mean strangling the Gen III to make it meet emissions regs. However, as the Gen III went out of production a little while ago (or so I'm told) and Holden may or may not have ordered enough to last until late next year, the Gen IV option is more likely in my opinion.

2. The VN Commodore, released in August 1988, had no V8 option at all until about March 1989. That's about eight months with no V8 to sell. So it has happened before, but at the start of a new model, not at the end of an old one.

If I recall correctly (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I seem to rememeber that when the BA Falcon was released October 2002, the XR8 was not available for sale and did not become available until about April 2003, or approximately six months later. But then again, they did have the XR6 Turbo out to compensate.

[Carby650]

BadMac. Thankyou.. Can I please have a LS7 !! Engine choices are becoming larger and you can see why Holden would be keeping them under their hats. Unless somebody on the inside wishes to let us in on their secret !! Cheers again BigMac.

[VY2 LS1]

will the l76 be available to Oz as of 1.1.2006?

If so, pretty persuasive option!!

[Ghia351]

If I recall correctly (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) but I seem to rememeber that when the BA Falcon was released October 2002, the XR8 was not available for sale and did not become available until about April 2003, or approximately six months later. But then again, they did have the XR6 Turbo out to compensate.
XR8 auto was released later then M5.

[SS_Fury]

Badmac your seem to be in the know...someone validate this man if hes on the money!

[VYSHSV8]

Evening,

Hey, Pickles and anyone else, read my other posts!
As previously stated, I will eat humble pie but gee, speculation is mounting from various angles.
Not going to repeat myself, but 6.0 litre??? from Vz11!

Cheers,

Hogs, :cool:

Heard the same from someone who was on the Tool up line shshsh....

[mavss]

Who knows what's going to happen in 2006 - no really.

It's all guess work and speculation.

As stated by a previous post, the first part of the equation will be answered within 52 days so hold onto your janglies boys 'cause it's going to be a roller coaster ride.

[BadMac]

I don't know anything. I have just followed all the forums and threads and spent a few hours searching and reading the internet for snippits (including the GM site). I guess I am just stating what is becoming obvious.

The funny thing is that Holden monitor these forums (to see if anything leaks out) and they are probably P1$$1ng themselves laughing at what we are guessing. Who knows maybe they are even using this as an unofficial test of the market place. How do we know that they haven't got professionals providing some misdirection or snippits to control the information.

The other worry if I (and the 20 people I stole the idea from) are right and it is the L76, does it matter that its a US truck engine, does that give Holdens rivals a point of weakness to exploit?

Mark

[SS_Fury]

holden monitor these forums? wow big brother like
Hi holden man :D

[OzJavelin]

Is it VL V8 all over again? How long after the VL release did the V8 come out? Six months or something like that wasn't it?
Edit: Doh! I wasn't reading properly .. duplicate post .. sorry

[Dacious]

The other worry if I (and the 20 people I stole the idea from) are right and it is the L76, does it matter that its a US truck engine, does that give Holdens rivals a point of weakness to exploit?

Mark

The LS series is part of the Vortec light truck, passenger and SUV engine family. Some have cast iron blocks/heads, some aluminium. The LS1 is a low-comp, smaller throttle body/plenum, milder cam LS6. The 6.0 LS2/ 5.3 LS4 with DoD capability is the same basic motor (same bore spacings) with a different crankcase casting, with the extra oil galleries able to be used to implement DoD. You cast up castings - what they end up being used for is whatever the CNC machines make them.

Ford does the same thing with a modular engine design:

Cast iron 4.6 SOHC/2 valve = older Mustang/Crown Victoria/trucks
Alloy 4.6 DOHC/4v 2001/2002 Cobra R, 2003/2004 Mach 1
Cast iron block/alloy DOHC/4v heads 4.6 w/supercharger 2003/2004 Cobra R, Jaguar R-type
Alloy 4.6 SOHC/3v 2005 Mustang GT
Cast iron 5.4, SOHC/2v w/supercharger Ford Lightning truck, without s/c SUVs and other truck models.
Cast iron 5.4, alloy SOHC/3v heads Ford Oz Fairlane
Cast iron 5.4, DOHC/4v alloy heads Ford Oz XR, FPV motor, also supercharged Ford GT motor

The Ford V6 in Europe and US (also Jaguar) actually is the V8 - two cylinders

These engines are mix'n'match - heads, capacities, casting materials etc. so you can match power and durability with cost vs performance for different applications. Higher hp with aluminium + more cams and valves = higher cost for higher performance.

The L76 is used in SUVs, but is basically an LS2 bottom end, probably mated with bigger combustion chambers or even just a thicker gasket to drop compression; maybe smaller ports for better low-rev power (perhaps 6.2 heads), a milder cam and VVT gear and lesser valve springs as it won't need to rev as high, smaller intake chamber and milder cam for torque/economy/emissions rather than high-end HP. The LS7 is a hand-built, hi-hp version of the new standard motor, the LS2, like the LS6 was compared to the LS1.

If GM made RWD fullsize cars in the 'States they'd probably get a version of the L76.

Besides, what's Ford gonna say - 'ha ha, look at those Holden arsewipes, they're using a truck eng....... whoops!'

GM actually blindsided Ford US completely. Ford thought GM was going to use/develop the Northstar for all passenger cars which is as big as it's ever going to get at about 4.5 litres. So they thought a 4.6 alloy dohc/4v motor would be all they'd ever need for passenger vehicles including performance. They thought the Vortec/LS OHV V8s were only going to be iron truck engines, where Ford have the longstroke 5.4 which is adequate in that market.

When GM announced the LS1 for the Corvette, big bore, 5.7L, all-alloy, 350 hp they realised they were in trouble. The supercharging is a stop-gap measure to provide similar power from smaller motors in the interim.

Without the LS1 Holden, and Ford Oz, would likely still be soldiering on with their 5 litre locally-made cast-iron 8s, or you'd get the Northstar and 4.6 ford.

[VY2 LS1]

Nice post Dacious

Stll haven't had anyone answer - Seldo, Dacious, anyone - will L76 be available for us from 1.1.2006?

The L76 is stated in the GM literature as being programmed for 2007 USA applications.

[seldo]

That's a good informative post Dacious... You did forget to mention though that the Ford 260/290 engine is a long-stroke iron truck motor that Ford OZ were clever enough to stick on the dohc alloy heads from the 4.6 Cobra. A clever move and it works ok. I believe the full 4.6 dohc engine was too wide to fit.

[Dacious]

Nice post Dacious

Stll haven't had anyone answer - Seldo, Dacious, anyone - will L76 be available for us from 1.1.2006?

The L76 is stated in the GM literature as being programmed for 2007 USA applications.

L76 is in 2006 Tahoe, an SUV already being tested in the US and about to be released.

Who knows? With 40% of Holden production going into inventory according to The Age (currently at 15,000 cars or 3 months supply) and 50% of Ford's driving into paddocks at Broadmeadows, we'll be lucky if the performance motor in the VE isn't the Ecotec 1.8 from the Astra..........

[Drewie]

L76 sounds too much like P76, can see the Ford boys having fun with that one!

[Dacious]

That's a good informative post Dacious... You did forget to mention though that the Ford 260/290 engine is a long-stroke iron truck motor that Ford OZ were clever enough to stick on the dohc alloy heads from the 4.6 Cobra. A clever move and it works ok. I believe the full 4.6 dohc engine was too wide to fit.

As I understand it they had to belt the bejesus out of the inner guards of the BA to even squeak the 5.4 in...... I bet swapping one into an early six-cyl BA would require some gas-axe work.

I think the 4.6 would have been a big sell for Ford - not only from the point of view of going downwards in capacity from the 5.0 Windsor when Holden was going up, but also the 300hp 4.6 even in the 1600kg '05 Mustang is noted as being breathless down low. In the BA it would have made for a 1800kg car.

IIRC, Ford US told Ford Oz 'you guys are crazy - those heads will never fit the 5.4'. Shows the yanks don't know everything.

[seldo]

[QUOTE=VY2 LS1]Nice post Dacious

Stll haven't had anyone answer - Seldo, Dacious, anyone - will L76 be available for us from 1.1.2006?

QUOTE]
My guess would be yes...but not 1/1/06. I'd think that they will go into 2006 with 2005 built and plated LS1s , and will use the Christmas/January lay-off to re-jig the production-line to handle L76 which will probably not show its face until maybe February. That'd be my guess on it...Maybe I'll have egg on my face but I guess we'll know within a couple of months...

[Pickles]

A point worthy of mention is that if VE had been introduced at its originally intended release date - July/ Aug 2005, Holden would not have had to worry about this issue! Cheers, Pickles.

[Rob4557]

Help...need ur advice!
It seems nobody knows for sure what motor will power next years Holden V8's. Could the Holden get a 6.0L LS2 variant? Could HSV get the 6.2L whilst Holden gets the 6.0L??

Id like to get peoples advice on this - im after a 6.0L ute (not necessarily LS2) do i buy the 05 HSV Maloo now or hope a 6.0L (LS2 variant) makes it into the Holden VZ SSII?? Most of the threads relate to sedans Reading the recent posts has made me nervous that im buying a motor that will be superseded in 6 weeks!

(Ive put a deposit on a Maloo, but would happily leave the deposit with the dealer until next year if i thought the VZ SS (series 2??) ute was going to get a 6.0L.
When do you think a VE ute (or 6.0L VZ variant - it seems the new model always lags in the utes) will be released?

Thanks for reading this far!

[seldo]

Holden have point-blank denied that Holden will be getting LS2. But what they didn't say was that it wouldn't be 6.0l. Because the ute will follow well after VE, I'd reckon your VZ ute will be current for at least 15months, and anyway, I think I'd rather a 6.0 with 297kw instead of a 6.0 with 264kw. There's nothing wrong with an LS2, be assured..:)

[OzJavelin]

If you've got the money now, buy the Maloo. What's that old saying about a bird in the hand worth two in the bush :)
BTW: I previously owned a 440ci (7.2L) Magnum-spec Mopar .. 375HP. A 6L with 396HP sounds pretty awesome to me!!

[mavss]

51 days to go.

[Carby650]

51 days to go.

mavss I ike the way you think. Remind me to wish you a happy new year on 01/01/2006

[RoarPower]

A mate here in WA has just picked up a brand spanking VZ SS ute. I asked why he didnt opt for the SSZ, and he said cos they overed him a development car with an LS2 in it. Dont know whether he is full of B.S. or not.

But to back this up, i met another bloke who reckons his other half is getting the same offer in Vic.

Sounds like there may already be a few LS2's out there in a limited number of holdens sold to a lucky few.

I work with a bloke who reckons he has a 03 VY Acclaim that has got the HFV6 and 5 speed auto - thats a very early model to have that combo, but he reckons holden give him great deals on servicing cos it was a test mule one of 20 made.

So to sum up -who knows really what Holden are upto - they probably already have. (made Euro III compliant)

[RoarPower]

"When do you think a VE ute (or 6.0L VZ variant - it seems the new model always lags in the utes) will be released?"

I read somewhere the current ute body will continue till atleast late 07 if not 08, even tho the ve is only next year

[Devil CV8]

A mate here in WA has just picked up a brand spanking VZ SS ute. I asked why he didnt opt for the SSZ, and he said cos they overed him a development car with an LS2 in it. Dont know whether he is full of B.S. or not.
I work with a bloke who reckons he has a 03 VY Acclaim that has got the HFV6 and 5 speed auto - thats a very early model to have that combo, but he reckons holden give him great deals on servicing cos it was a test mule one of 20 made.

Easy solution... Have you seen the LS2 in the VZ SS, have you seen the acclaim with the 5 speed, and more importantly have you confirmed the details on the compliance plate. I find it hard to believe that mechanical development cars have been sold to the public.

How about some pics of each of the cars, (especially engine bay of the VZ SS ute) AND the compliance/build plates

[Ghia351]

A mate here in WA has just picked up a brand spanking VZ SS ute. I asked why he didnt opt for the SSZ, and he said cos they overed him a development car with an LS2 in it. Dont know whether he is full of B.S. or not.

But to back this up, i met another bloke who reckons his other half is getting the same offer in Vic.

Sounds like there may already be a few LS2's out there in a limited number of holdens sold to a lucky few.

I work with a bloke who reckons he has a 03 VY Acclaim that has got the HFV6 and 5 speed auto - thats a very early model to have that combo, but he reckons holden give him great deals on servicing cos it was a test mule one of 20 made.

So to sum up -who knows really what Holden are upto - they probably already have. (made Euro III compliant)

Nothing personal, certainly eye-brow raising, as most car companies would keep test mules and sadly destroy them when nolonger needed. I would imagine a very high-up engineer would only ever be allowed to keep such a car and to sell it later privately might explain reaching the general public however it just seems surprising.

[hogs]

G'day,

For what it is worth, I would be still sitting on the cheque book for a little while and see what is around the corner.
Again, I bet deals get better and something interesting is in the engine pipeline.

Check out the options!

· 4.8L iron block (RPO LY2), rated at 290 horsepower (216 kw)*
· 5.3L iron block (RPO LY5) with Displacement On Demand technology, rated at 320 horsepower (238 kw)* – including E85-capable version (RPO LMG)
· 5.3L aluminum block (RPO LC9) with Displacement On Demand technology and E85 capability, rated at 320 horsepower (238 kw)*
· 6.0L iron block (LY6) heavy-duty engine with variable valve timing, rated at 350 horsepower (261 kw)*
· 6.0L aluminum block (L76) with Displacement On Demand technology and variable valve timing, rated at 355 horsepower (264 kw)*
· 6.2L aluminum block (L92) with variable valve timing, capable of 380 to 400 horsepower (283 to 298 kw)*

These of course are only the untuned and mod free versions. From a tech point of view, more potential that the LS1! But I am no spanner man?

Cheers,

Hogs, :confused:

HAS NOT POSTED 287 TIMES!

[duz]

hey guys,
this is my first post, im actually a ford man but am interested in the details of the new VE commodore
just a question about the new SS-Z range. this may have been answered in another thread and if so then please point me towards this: has this model been called the SS-Z because of the stopping of LS1 production?? if so, does this mean that any new cars will definately be getting a new V8, be it an LS2 or L76??

[cams290]

The other worry if I (and the 20 people I stole the idea from) are right and it is the L76, does it matter that its a US truck engine, does that give Holdens rivals a point of weakness to exploit?

Mark


No not really, the Ford Boss 260/290 engines are a 5.4 litre truck engine, with some Cobra R type heads chucked on. :lol:

[BadMac]

Just to add some more spice, if they do change the engine post xmas, do you reckon they will also change the gearbox. It would be nice to get the final drivetrain package all sorted before VE launch. So it would make sense to change both bits.

It would be worth waiting for a VZ Clubbie until after xmas if it was to have both the LS2 and the 6 speed auto. :p

[andrewdisco]

I'd like to say a couple of things...

Firstly... how CRAP is the L76 going to sound when it runs on 4 cylinders and during the transition from 4 to 8 ?? :p You might wish you had the LS1 when you hear it :D
People will yearn for the full blooded LS2 V8 sound and between that and the extra few kw's it will maintain the HSV's exclusivity.


Secondly... it makes sense to me as suggested to NOT bring out the new motor prior to the VE. Holden are having great difficulty selling their current stock of LS1's... why would they go out of their way to introduce a new temporary model and risk stealing some of the VE's glory. I'm sure Holden don't want people saying "just buy the VZ II.. it's the same motor and a lighter car!" ?

It makes much more sense to just break from the V8 production... sell off current inventory, and then build market anticipation and pre-orders for the new model.

I know they bought out the LS1 in the VTII... but come on.. the VT to VX wasn't a REAL model change. Not like they had to re-engineer the engine bay and mounts and significantly re-test it.

Spending money on a aging V8 model that is barely selling, just so you can run it for 9 months makes no business sense to me at all. But then again holden aren't doing that well in business :)

[seldo]

I'd like to say a couple of things...

Firstly... how CRAP is the L76 going to sound when it runs on 4 cylinders and during the transition from 4 to 8 ?? :p .............
Secondly... it makes sense to me as suggested to NOT bring out the new motor prior to the VE. ...............
It makes much more sense to just break from the V8 production...

Spending money on a aging V8 model that is barely selling, just so you can run it for 9 months makes no business sense to me at all. But then again holden aren't doing that well in business :)
I wouldn't be surprised that IF Holden decide to use the L76 engine, they do not use the DOD capability of it. It is technology that OZ isn't ready for yet, and also it costs...And of course they have no choice as far as engines go - the LS1 isn't complianced past Dec 05,and it would be wasted money to try to make it comply for a short time only when there is a new car around the corner. Why not introduce the new engine to try to extend the life of the VZ and any development costs can be used on the new VE...

[andrewdisco]

Maybe they will.. but it doesnt make sense to me from a business perspective.. you'd be doubling up on too much development wouldnt you ? they'd have to match it up with the VZ do all the road testing, engineering, marketing, administration, everything that comes with a new model and then do it all again.... or just wait til the VE and sell it as a whole new package ? if there are 30 engines on the way.. i'd say they would be for more VE test mules ?... if the L76 was going to be in the VZ surely more info would have leaked by now. Also i cant see them making changes to the motor as major as no DoD in the short term just for a brief model run either.

I'm not saying your wrong, just saying it doesn't make much business sense to me, given how much cost and effort goes into getting any engine or engineering change from an idea onto the street. Given how many V8's they still would have in stock.

A limited run of LS2's in them would be very interesting and maybe enough to keep the VZ alive for a bit longer since most of the engineering work has already been done by HSV in terms of matching them up.... but that doesnt really make a hell of alot of sense either :p:)

[andrewdisco]

Also it would be nice to give the V8 production a break for a while so that the 2nd hand market can cool off a little bit. A new 6 litre in a couple of months in the VZ would just kill the already shitful LS1 resale values.

I can dream can't i ?

[CharlieDontSurf]

Heres a thought. Is England Euro III comliant. If so how come you can buy a Vauxhaul Monaro with LS1?

[andrewdisco]

According to the vauxhall web site it's Euro 4 compliant? interesting eh. Good point.

[Cat755]

Heres a thought. Is England Euro III comliant. If so how come you can buy a Vauxhaul Monaro with LS1?
You can't because it has the 6lt LS2, so therefor compliant with Euro specs
Sorry I was thinking of the VRX model not being aware that they also sell the standard Monaro with the LS1

[EfiJy]

Heres a thought. Is England Euro III comliant. If so how come you can buy a Vauxhaul Monaro with LS1?

Low volume exemption from compliance?

[andrewdisco]

Web site says it has euro IV emission levels though

[CharlieDontSurf]

VXR (HSV GTO) is LS2 NOT Monaro. Monaro Still has LS1 in it
Check this link or the vauhall site
http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/technicalSpecifications.jhtml?driveCode=GX37&driveCodePack=MON1&description=5.7i%20V8%20[354PS]

LS1 is Euro 4 compliant according to Vauxhall. Maybe Holdens being pulling the wool over our eyes?? If they can export it it would be easy to put in a commodore

[Y2kGoofball]

a tad late here but


I read somewhere the current ute body will continue till atleast late 07 if not 08, even tho the ve is only next year apparantly yes this is true.

The current Adventra as we all know is a VZ wagon on steroids. Apparantly they will remain this shape once the VE arrives.

My theory is the Adventra will remain this shape until the S3X arrives which will signal the death of the Adventra.

As for the Utes apparently they too will remain VZ shape. Dunno what their up too :rolleyes:

[HSVMAN]

a tad late here but apparantly yes this is true.

The current Adventra as we all know is a VZ wagon on steroids. Apparantly they will remain this shape once the VE arrives.
My theory is the Adventra will remain this shape until the S3X arrives which will signal the death of the Adventra.
As for the Utes apparently they too will remain VZ shape. Dunno what their up too :rolleyes:

Adventra will remain for some time, as will Ute. SX3 should be out way before Adv discontinues - hopefully mid next year - and is not intended to replace the Adv at all but boost model line-up. It will be available in both RWD & AWD V6 powered

[Stevotski]

VXR (HSV GTO) is LS2 NOT Monaro. Monaro Still has LS1 in it
Check this link or the vauhall site
http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/technicalSpecifications.jhtml?driveCode=GX37&driveCodePack=MON1&description=5.7i%20V8%20[354PS]

LS1 is Euro 4 compliant according to Vauxhall. Maybe Holdens being pulling the wool over our eyes?? If they can export it it would be easy to put in a commodore


and in 260kw/500Nm tune as well! I am by no means an environmentalist but if Holden can already make them Euro 4 compliant then why don't they? They would score plenty of greeny points and maybe save a dolphin or two :)

I always thought that the LS1 could be made to comply, but the LS1 may end due to (rumoured) St Catherine's ending LS1 production full stop.

EDIT: I notice the Vauxhall site says CO2 emmissions = 365g/km , guess what, the www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au site lists CV8 and CV8Z at 326g/km Auto and 365g/km manual....

So the question is... do we already have Euro 4 compliant factory tunes?

[HSVMAN]

VXR (HSV GTO) is LS2 NOT Monaro. Monaro Still has LS1 in it
Check this link or the vauhall site
http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/technicalSpecifications.jhtml?driveCode=GX37&driveCodePack=MON1&description=5.7i%20V8%20[354PS]
LS1 is Euro 4 compliant according to Vauxhall. Maybe Holdens being pulling the wool over our eyes?? If they can export it it would be easy to put in a commodore

All Vauxhall coupes (monaro based) are now LS2 not LS1 :)

[VY2 LS1]

Spoke to a dealer yesterday,

He stated Jan 06 will see the LS1 with exhaust and tune mods to make Euro 3. & he stated no new motor till VE.

[HSVMAN]

Spoke to a dealer yesterday,

He stated Jan 06 will see the LS1 with exhaust and tune mods to make Euro 3. & he stated no new motor till VE.

The most likely and more sensible approach seeing as they have goodstocks of LS1 engines left. I'm happy to accept being wrong but will place money on the fact that LS2 will not be in VZ ;)
Whole lot of speculation and unsubstantiated claims going on here but interesting read all the same...

[Evil LS1]

The most likely and more sensible approach seeing as they have goodstocks of LS1 engines left. I'm happy to accept being wrong but will place money on the fact that LS2 will not be in VZ ;)
Whole lot of speculation and unsubstantiated claims going on here but interesting read all the same...

I bet LS2 won't be in VZ either; L76 however is a different matter.

[HSVMAN]

I'd like to say a couple of things...

1.
Firstly... how CRAP is the L76 going to sound when it runs on 4 cylinders and during the transition from 4 to 8 ?? :p You might wish you had the LS1 when you hear it :D
People will yearn for the full blooded LS2 V8 sound and between that and the extra few kw's it will maintain the HSV's exclusivity.........
2.
Secondly... it makes sense to me as suggested to NOT bring out the new motor prior to the VE. Holden are having great difficulty selling their current stock of LS1's... why would they go out of their way to introduce a new temporary model and risk stealing some of the VE's glory. I'm sure Holden don't want people saying "just buy the VZ II.. it's the same motor and a lighter car!" ?
3.
But then again holden aren't doing that well in business :)
1.
You practically dont hear DOD it happens under light load only and you wont know when it is, also DOD will be introduced with LS2 and most other high performance engines to come
2.
If thats the case why dont people buy VX instead of VZ? same motor....
3.
Can you substantiate that??

[zacz]

Check out these articles........

Interesting thing is that the L76 is actually based on a truck engine - but it appears to be more technologically advanced than the LS2!

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=10684

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=10679

Im sure a lot of other CV8Z owners share the sentiments I feel that if this engine was in the CV8Z this wouldve been a better way of sending off the MONARO!

Wonder how much an engine transplant costs........!!!??? :D

[seldo]

1.
You practically dont hear DOD it happens under light load only and you wont know when it is, also DOD will be introduced with LS2 and most other high performance engines to come
2.
If thats the case why dont people buy VX instead of VZ? same motor....
3.
Can you substantiate that??
1. As previously stated, I wouldn't be surprised if the OZ L76 is not DOD enabled
2. I think it makes perfect sense to introduce the new motor first before the new car so that if there are any issues they can be dealt with before they taint the new VE.
3. As HSVMAN said; who says Holden are not travelling well. I think there's plenty of other car companies who'd like to be doing as badly...

[Evil LS1]

1. As previously stated, I wouldn't be surprised if the OZ L76 is not DOD enabled
2. I think it makes perfect sense to introduce the new motor first before the new car so that if there are any issues they can be dealt with before they taint the new VE.
3. As HSVMAN said; who says Holden are not travelling well. I think there's plenty of other car companies who'd like to be doing as badly...

Actually with fuel prices as they are Holden would be eager to have DOD. Would get fantastic cruising economy with it enabled.

What worries me how many people buy toyotas. The largest, ugliest range of blamange nothing styling POS and the corolla is now number one. That's how bad Holden and Ford are going.

[HSVMAN]

Actually with fuel prices as they are Holden would be eager to have DOD. Would get fantastic cruising economy with it enabled.
What worries me how many people buy toyotas. The largest, ugliest range of blamange nothing styling POS and the corolla is now number one. That's how bad Holden and Ford are going.

I agree with you regarding DOD, couldnt happen soon enough.
As for Toyota, yeah too true and they are now number one world wide :eek:

[SS_Fury]

Extra V8 muscle for Holden Commodore
The Sydney Morning Herald
Friday November 18 2005

Petrol crisis, what petrol crisis? Holden is about to switch to 6.0-litre V8 power for its flagship models, reports TOBY HAGON.

If you're about to buy a new Holden Commodore SS or V8-powered Calais or Statesman, be warned: Holden is only weeks away from replacing its 5.7-litre engine in favour of a 6.0-litre V8 claimed to deliver a class-leading 264kW of power.

The new engine, codenamed L76, will arrive next month in preparation for stricter emissions regulations that come into force for all new cars sold from January 1 next year.

Drive understands the existing 5.7-litre V8 engine, codenamed LS1 but also known as the Gen III, does not meet the new Euro 3 emissions regulations.

Holden is yet to confirm the L76 for the Commodore. However, Drive sources suggest it will be phased in from late December so Holden dealerships have the new models when the new regulations come into effect.

Significantly, it is not the same 6.0-litre engine fitted to the HSV range. Holden's performance-car division has the 6.0-litre V8 that's used in the latest Corvette. The Holden 6.0-litre (the L76) is an engine primarily designed for truck use, according to Drive sources.

The engine switch also explains why Holden has crammed so much equipment into the Commodore SSZ limited-edition model, with extras such as bigger brakes, leather trim, Bluetooth phone connection - and only a $49,990 price tag. With the arrival of the 6.0-litre Commodore SS, Holden can ramp the price back up to its usual $51,000-plus.

The flagship of General Motors V8 range, the 297kW LS2, will be kept exclusively for the performance HSV models, providing more incentive for buyers to upgrade to the flagship of Holden's performance line-up.

For the number crunchers, the L76's claimed 264kW is 5 per cent more than the 250kW currently squeezed from the 5.7-litre. More importantly for owners, particularly those looking to tow, is the increased engine capacity also has the potential to quell one of the bugbears of the outgoing LS1; lacklustre middle-rev-range performance.

Such output improvements from the new 6.0-litre are also expected to deliver spin-off benefits in fuel consumption, which is crucial as high fuel prices continue to cause headaches for motorists.

The L76 is also expected to appear in other locally made Holden derivatives, such as the Statesman, Caprice and Calais.

As Drive went to press, it was unclear about the future of the V8-powered Adventra four-wheel-drive, which has been a flop since going on sale in late 2003.

Engineering the 6.0-litre L76 for the low-volume Adventra appears to make little sense, given the costs involved.

The arrival of the new L76 V8 engine gives Holden a perfect chance to address one of the major issues of the existing V8 - the clunky four-speed automatic transmission.

Now that rival Ford is offering a world-class six-speed automatic transmission on some models, Holden is under increasing pressure to respond.

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/a...&vf=2&bg=1&pp=0

[BadMac]

Hi I just posted some info in the following thread (linked rather than duplicating it here). Its links to the PDF's for the motors in VZ/VE (Holden and HSV). Yes some of them are the same ones I posted on page 1 of this thread. :) Also a cut and paste of how DOD is implemented in the Gen IV. :cool:

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=46900&page=2

See #46 and #47.

[SV99]

Poor HSV people - gonna get gazumped on power again - unless they get a bit of edit/DiFillipo help to stay ahead of course.


bad luck you buy a car to drive it not to use it as a finance tool. anyone who buys a car for investment has rocks for brains (apart from the collectable ones ) in this day and age its silly to do that.

rock on i would love to buy a 270kw ute for std money. :)

[rapom1]

Just signed up for a new 2006 SS ute, special conditions of contract state amongst other things.

"Vehicle to be a 2006 compliance VZ SS ute with a L76 Engine"

Best thing is, because its signed in 2005 the $4000 mastercard applies.

[Pickles]

Just signed up for a new 2006 SS ute, special conditions of contract state amongst other things.

"Vehicle to be a 2006 compliance VZ SS ute with a L76 Engine"

Best thing is, because its signed in 2005 the $4000 mastercard applies.
Sounds like a sensational deal--Did you get any confirmation from the dealer that L76 was FACT?
Cheers, Pickles.

[rapom1]

Sounds like a sensational deal--Did you get any confirmation from the dealer that L76 was FACT?
Cheers, Pickles.

Well i had it written into the special conditions of contract, and the dealer did check before signing. There are no other special conditions stating "pending holden supply of vehicle" or anything similar. So, I suppose they need to supply at least one VZ SS L76 ute. Or??

The dealer did not, however state that L76 was FACT. It was just assumed.

[Carby650]

well it appear that hard facts are now starting to come out. I spoke to a HSV guy today about the $52k VZ special and asked him way. He did confirm that the 2006 HSV will be 300+ kw but claimed he had not been told what it would be. I think its about time both Holden and HSV just came clean with the info so that those of us looking to make a purchase can make an informed one.

[KeenGolfer]

Well i had it written into the special conditions of contract, and the dealer did check before signing. There are no other special conditions stating "pending holden supply of vehicle" or anything similar. So, I suppose they need to supply at least one VZ SS L76 ute. Or??

Many dealers wouldn't have a clue about engine codes! So you didn't actually discuss it? You just wrote it in the conditions? :confused: I can guarantee you though that if they don't come with the L76 in Jan they certainly won't be building a special one just for you :)

[rapom1]

Many dealers wouldn't have a clue about engine codes! So you didn't actually discuss it? You just wrote it in the conditions? :confused: I can guarantee you though that if they don't come with the L76 in Jan they certainly won't be building a special one just for you :)

I understand that fully and realise there's no way they'll build one car just for me. I also understand that if I turn up on delivery day and its not an L76 (or LS2 as adequate substitute....lol) then Ill be riding home in a Falcon (taxi).