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View Full Version : I lost a little respect for HWP officers tonight.



Febs
27-12-2005, 02:09 AM
Hi guys.

I've always respected police, never had a bad word to say about them personally...and whenever I've seen them give mates a fine, it's been justified. But this morning, I'm angry.

My dad's a great bloke. Tonight he picked up my girlfriend and myself from the city (after going out for Boxing Day drinks) at 2am. He does this all the time.

So we're on the way home (in mum's bog stock Corolla), about 3km from home travelling at 80km/h in an 80 zone, when dad says "Got your seatbelts on guys?"

"Yeah, but why?"

"That police car we passed just chucked a u-turn and put it's lights on."

So dad gets out, and the police officers (HWP from Liverpool), breathalise him, then say they've clocked him on radar doing 100km/h in an 80 zone. Now my dad's not one to speed (ESPECIALLY during double demerits), but I KNOW he was doing the speed limit on this stretch of road, because I was watching the speedo (which is very accurate), and saw 80km/h. He admitted to them that he may have hit 85km/h at one point, but in no way was he doing 100km/h.

They took his licence, sat in the car for 10 minutes then came out with a fine for 20km/h over - $225 and 6 demerit points (being DD's). :mad:

I asked how long they locked on, and the guy said "In accordance with the regulations. Do you have the guidelines?" To which I replied "Yes, at home." He then said it was over 3 seconds, and all was legitimate.

Now if dad really was doing 100, he'd accept it. He's that kind of guy. The thing is - he wasn't speeding.

He's going to take this one to court, but reading the radar handbook I can't find much that helps him. The weather was fine, there were no other cars around, and they had enough time (3 seconds) to get a lock. :(

Any ideas or tips from people in similar situations? All I can think of is to question the accuracy of the equipment...but I'm not sure how far that'd get him...

Cheers,
- Febs.

slickholden
27-12-2005, 02:43 AM
One thing i could be this, My sister in my car was booked doing 65 in a 60-zone when doing under 60.
My mums VB got treated once to 15" VT interceptor rims, And i was told that would put the speddo out really bad but i never got it checked and once i passed a speed camera doing 85kp/h in a 70 zone i waited 4 years for the fine and nothing still, I gave up waiting:p

But with them mobile speeds cameras i don't understand how they can pick your speed going the other way moving? it's like how many chips are in the bag ****ed if anyone knows:p. Don't pay and fight it they must have some questions over the reliability of them cameras i'm sure there will be other will similar problems.

SV8VY
27-12-2005, 06:26 AM
Depending on how badly he wants to keep his points it will most probably be lengthy and costly in court.
To win you definitely need a good lawyer that knows the road rules and or loopholes (if there is any).
The Police will do their best to screw you and money is no object.
I had a problem a couple of years ago and was booked for 3 offences and took me almost a year in court.
Chris Kalpage was the lawyer I used (as advertised in the motor magazines) and he definitely knows what he is doing.
I suggest you have a chat to someone first and see where you stand.
The police must show there has been regular maintenance on the radar unit for one.
If your dad hasn't had any recent traffic offences or has a good traffic record (and they will go back to when he got his licence) he can file for a section 10a and get off with a small fine and a warning with no points taken.
Good luck.

HSV,_I_GOT_ONE
27-12-2005, 07:12 AM
You know what they should really do. If an officer has a speeding fine contested then he/she should put up their own money to defend their case rather then the government. I'm sure they would think twice when they pull someone over if they had to do that!
And just to be fair if the defendent loses then they have to pay the officers court costs.

COSMOS
27-12-2005, 07:13 AM
why dont you PM me - I have some questions I need to ask you about your dad's driving history and the car....

mavss
27-12-2005, 07:49 AM
It may pay to go back to the site and take some piccies of the area to see if there are any reflective surfaces (sign posts etc) that may throw the reading out.

Covert
27-12-2005, 07:56 AM
If your dad hasn't had any recent traffic offences or has a good traffic record (and they will go back to when he got his licence) he can file for a section 10a and get off with a small fine and a warning with no points taken.
Good luck.

A s10 dismissal gets you off the fine but the RTA still apply the demerit points.

Waughy
27-12-2005, 08:11 AM
Was the radar gun in calibration, or was the copper runningout of time to make his quota? Don't say they don't have one, it's like any job, if you aren't doing your bit...... If your Dad's record has been clean for 10 years he can ring the collections mob in Maitland near Newcastle, they'll check and if clean you're off, but have to be very careful after that. Actually I'm not sure about the points, but the fine is let off, would have to check up on that.
But if you are a witness to the fact thespeedo didn't hit 100 I'm not sure if that will help too much, hope it turns out well for your Dad. I feel the same way you do about the police it's just a shame there's a few out there who let it go to thier heads that give the whole a bad image.

lowriding
27-12-2005, 08:19 AM
Sounds like a stuffed situation febs , sorry to hear it . Was there any cars around you at the time ?

marcu5
27-12-2005, 09:34 AM
Hey,
Donít quote me as a professional here but hereís a few things to consider.
The copa had 100 sitting on the radar from someone else who got away. He needed to hit the quota (Oh yes they do have them ;) ) and found your dad as a target. (This you will find extremely hard to prove even under oath the cop will no doubt lie to cover his arse and this would be almost impossible to prove in court)
Now with the highway, is there a gap between the lanes? Islands? Grass? Medium Strips? If so the angles that would need to be taken into account from the gap between his vehicle and yours would be impossible for a cop to work out on the fly. It would drastically impair the radar reading also. (Photos)
Although the cop might know his radar bullshit, has he been trained in it? Write a letter and ask for proof of some sort. (A superintendent should supply this)
Has the equipment been serviced and maintained according to procedures. Once again ask for proof. (There should be a radar sheet from some third party that you can get)
The vehicle that they are in, what sort of tires are on it? Has their car computer been recalibrated to suit the speed adjustment of their tires? (Iím not sure what radar they were using but this could affect the reading.)
Although he may of locked onto you for 3seconds, did he do the six or so other checks? (Mite be just QLD) (eg: A visual look at your car and realize that "O shit heís going more then 80clicks!)
All of the above (plus there is more) is what I have done through experience, I have gone for interviews, read their manuals, written a number of letters but have not yet gone to court to prove my innocence. So far I am considered guilty but there is a class action law suit coming up soon regarding the inaccuracies of the Dakota geneses 2 select radar in QLD because I was done unfairly (it read me 2km more out which was the difference between loosing my license and 200$ fine) and so have a lot of other people up here. (Spread the word as they are keeping this under the wraps!!)
I hope this helps ey, you might want to get a lawyer that specializes in radar also that can/is/get an expert witness on radar. Although it might cost around the $600 mark you might just find you will come away with a win and you wont have to pay your fee's (or you will get reimbursed - then go to the media and spread the word)

In reading this, some of you might think I am against the use of radar and cops ect.. Iím not but I am against the use of them not doing their job properly and not supplying good justification for at least half the shit they do. I work in government also and have to provide justification for what I do yet they are law enforcement and according to them they can fall through loop holes just for them here and there. It shits me right off, if the job cant be done properly donít fugging do it at all as far as Iím concerned - let someone else do it.

Brayden's dad
27-12-2005, 10:23 AM
Febs,

First of all, I believe your case has some merit. I can't say I believe you because I don't know you. I don't think you were looking at the speedo when the copper pinged him because, as you said, you didn't know the copper was there. Having said that, I do believe you may have looked at it after you found out that a police car had just passed you & that, even if you didn't, you would have noticed a change in speed from (allegedly) 100 down to 80.

Also, I don't believe you would spend all that time writing that post on a public forum if you didn't believe in what you were writing.

A couple of months ago, I received a letter in the mail telling me I'd been caught doing 75 in a 60 zone by a speed camera. The fine was $75 plus 3 demerit points. I was all set to pay the fine when it was suggested to me (by a police officer no less) that I should write a letter given my good driving record.

Basically, I said that I had no recollection of speeding on that particular day but if the camera said I did then I have no defence. I went on to say that I drive every day & that we are all human & prone to mistakes. If I had been speeding, then it would have been an honest mistake. I asked for leniency given my good driving record. I continued that if they did not deem my case worthy of leniency, then I would pay the fine. They let me off with a warning.

Why did I write that? Try a letter first, mate, stating your case. Can't hurt especially if you believe you are in the right. Just tell the truth & don't embellish anything.

Troy.

surfmaster59
27-12-2005, 10:43 AM
Forget the guff about Qld radar is this and quota's are that and did the cop polish his boots before he checked the oil in the radar, deal with the facts and NSW policies and legislation - if you got a ticket in NSW it was most probably recorded on in-car video. Ring the HWP office the officer came from and ask to see the video - that should give you an answer as to what did actually happen.

The PM
27-12-2005, 10:54 AM
Where were you in the car? Unless you are in the drivers seat directly behind the speedo, it is impossible to accurately see what the needle on the speedo is on. I beleive the term is paralax error?

HRT 8
27-12-2005, 10:56 AM
Hey,
Donít quote me as a professional here but hereís a few things to consider.
The copa had 100 sitting on the radar from someone else who got away. He needed to hit the quota (Oh yes they do have them ;) ) and found your dad as a target. (This you will find extremely hard to prove even under oath the cop will no doubt lie to cover his arse and this would be almost impossible to prove in court)
Now with the highway, is there a gap between the lanes? Islands? Grass? Medium Strips? If so the angles that would need to be taken into account from the gap between his vehicle and yours would be impossible for a cop to work out on the fly. It would drastically impair the radar reading also. (Photos)
Although the cop might know his radar bullshit, has he been trained in it? Write a letter and ask for proof of some sort. (A superintendent should supply this)
Has the equipment been serviced and maintained according to procedures. Once again ask for proof. (There should be a radar sheet from some third party that you can get)
The vehicle that they are in, what sort of tires are on it? Has their car computer been recalibrated to suit the speed adjustment of their tires? (Iím not sure what radar they were using but this could affect the reading.)
Although he may of locked onto you for 3seconds, did he do the six or so other checks? (Mite be just QLD) (eg: A visual look at your car and realize that "O shit heís going more then 80clicks!)
All of the above (plus there is more) is what I have done through experience, I have gone for interviews, read their manuals, written a number of letters but have not yet gone to court to prove my innocence. So far I am considered guilty but there is a class action law suit coming up soon regarding the inaccuracies of the Dakota geneses 2 select radar in QLD because I was done unfairly (it read me 2km more out which was the difference between loosing my license and 200$ fine) and so have a lot of other people up here. (Spread the word as they are keeping this under the wraps!!)
I hope this helps ey, you might want to get a lawyer that specializes in radar also that can/is/get an expert witness on radar. Although it might cost around the $600 mark you might just find you will come away with a win and you wont have to pay your fee's (or you will get reimbursed - then go to the media and spread the word)

In reading this, some of you might think I am against the use of radar and cops ect.. Iím not but I am against the use of them not doing their job properly and not supplying good justification for at least half the shit they do. I work in government also and have to provide justification for what I do yet they are law enforcement and according to them they can fall through loop holes just for them here and there. It shits me right off, if the job cant be done properly donít fugging do it at all as far as Iím concerned - let someone else do it.

Please make sure the advice your giving someone. Advice which could see them in court, is factual. Alot of what has been posted above is not only misleading, but incorrect.
Just remember that there are many members here that are very experienced in these types of matters.
:) As a side note, I hope everybody had a safe Xmas and they have an even safer New Year period.

chris_vysv8
27-12-2005, 12:03 PM
If anyone is interested, this Australian website www.speedingisbullshit.com has lots of factual information, media reports and links.

Chris

surfmaster59
27-12-2005, 12:21 PM
If anyone is interested, this Australian website www.speedingisbullshit.com has lots of factual information, media reports and links.

Chris

I had a look at that site, its a bullshit site allright.

marcu5
27-12-2005, 02:50 PM
Please make sure the advice your giving someone. Advice which could see them in court, is factual. Alot of what has been posted above is not only misleading, but incorrect.
Just remember that there are many members here that are very experienced in these types of matters.
:) As a side note, I hope everybody had a safe Xmas and they have an even safer New Year period.

Im not sure how you find my information incorrect. that is unless you have walked beside me? (Dont take it the wrong way but I dont post bullshit..)

Ryzz
27-12-2005, 04:41 PM
Sorry to hear Febs, thats pretty ruff. I know for a fact you can request to see the readout from the radar gun on the HWP car at the time of the offence. If they deny you access to this reading i beleive you have very very good grounds to contest it under. However being hine site this isnt going to help much.

Id suggest starting by writting a letter to the RTA along the lines of "im a good driver with a good record...blah blah blah" and see where that gets you. Failing that id suggest if you really want to contend it further to check with someone in the legal professionl in the know on this sort of thing.

Good luck mate, keep us posted!

seedyrom
27-12-2005, 05:59 PM
I've had 2 HWP fines which were incorrect. In both instances I requested to see the readout, which in one case was muuuuch less than what I was doing when his lights came on.
Was doing a stupid speed in the middle of no-where on the Newell Highway. But he only pinged me for 129. Seemed to me that he had that speed locked in as a good general booking speed, as visually he would have seen me speeding but by the time he had completed his checks and 3 sec rule, i would have passed him. I copped that on the chin, as it beat losing my license 100km from anywhere.
The second instance happened in a red wrx in the mid 90's when they weren't as common as noses. Whilst booking me in a little country town for a speed that i disputed he made mention that the way i was driving offended the community and attracted attention to myself. At the time i thought that was strange, as i was just passing through from melb to syd. I copped the fine (as contesting it would mean having to drive back for the court case), and thought i'd stop for lunch in this little town. Low and behold as i sat in a park eating my lunch, an identical red wrx hatch pulled up next to mine. A cocky 18 year old (same as me) jumps out, laughing about how freaky it was to see two, and at that stage rare, identical performance cars driven by young people in a small town. Then he told me how he's been doing heli's in the town all morning and generally driving like its stolen.
Im sure the copper targeted me for someone elses bad bevahiour, and already had a speed locked in the radar, as i confirmed my speed the instant i saw the cop cars lighting cluster appear over the horizen.

The point of all this? ... I firmly believe that some officers drive highways with a speed locked in, that most people wouldn't protest, as they were 'probaby' doing close to that and wont argue.

That being said, i have been in court and seen someone's protesting a fine be dismissed in 2 minutes.
"officer, did you check and calibrate the equipment before starting you shift?"
"yes your worship"
"case dismissed"

Sorry to hear about your old man febs. I can confirm he's one of the nicest people i know, and i know a lot of nice people. I would take his word over most people's , its a pity a magistrate probably wont though.

Good luck,
seedy

Febs
27-12-2005, 06:17 PM
Thanks for all the responses guys (and thanks HRT8 for the helpful PM).

There were no other cars on the road at the time (being 2:30am), but roughly where we would've been pinged there was a large semi-trailer trailer parked right next to the road. I'm going back to get pics in a few minutes...but could that affect the reading? There are a few reflective signs around too.

Dad was offered a look at the reading straight away, and said it read "100". He didn't see any video, but saw a reading on their screen that showed 100.


I feel the same way you do about the police it's just a shame there's a few out there who let it go to thier heads that give the whole a bad image.

In all fairness they could quite easily have recorded 100km/h on their screen...but I know for a fact it wasn't our doing 100km/h. As reliable as all this equipment is, I'm sure there has been the odd case of errors/failures (hence the rules such as not using radar in inclement weather, near other vehicles etc...)


Now with the highway, is there a gap between the lanes? Islands? Grass? Medium Strips? If so the angles that would need to be taken into account from the gap between his vehicle and yours would be impossible for a cop to work out on the fly. It would drastically impair the radar reading also. (Photos)

Nothing between the lanes but some removable posts (the small ~1m reflective ones that they change for tidal traffic).

Their car was a VZ SS with VZ SS rims...I'm not sure if they were 17s or 18s (didn't get a good look), but I'm not about to start questioning those things at the moment.


I don't think you were looking at the speedo when the copper pinged him because, as you said, you didn't know the copper was there.

Fair call mate, but I was looing at his speedo the whole time because I know the stretch of road, and it's quite easy to speed along there (especially at 2:30am). I was watching the speedo before we even saw the HWP car's lighs in the distance. I saw a car approaching, but didn't give it a close look because I was watching the speedo. I only realised it was HWP when he turned around and flicked the lights on.


Where were you in the car? Unless you are in the drivers seat directly behind the speedo, it is impossible to accurately see what the needle on the speedo is on. I beleive the term is paralax error?

Front passenger's seat, and yes of course you're going to see a different reading at an angle...but I take that into account. As a young fella I drove with dad 6-7 days/week (sitting in the passenger seat), so I always used to watch the speedo, and learnt how to read it from the passenger's seat.

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. I'll keep you updated. :)

Cheers guys,
- Febs.

PS: I've suggested dad gets the speedo officially checked soon, because he knows he was doing 80km/h according to the speedo. Any advice on where to get this done?

Oldmonroman
27-12-2005, 06:46 PM
Respect for the HWP you have to be joking? They lost that from me when a cop chucked a U turn and followed my son which was in front of me and they hounded him by tailgating him, what a F...ing disgrace and this went on for 4km's.

Waughy
27-12-2005, 07:56 PM
Respect for the HWP you have to be joking? They lost that from me when a cop chucked a U turn and followed my son which was in front of me and they hounded him by tailgating him, what a F...ing disgrace and this went on for 4km's.


I have to add to this, a mate was heading home after an arvo shift, about 1.30am, in a 100 zone and this 4WD comes up behind him, right on his arse. He couldn't tell it was the fuzz so sped up to about 105 to give him self some room. Next thing on come the lights, he pulls over and gets a warning for speeding. Guess the donut shop was still baking at that time.
Don't get me wrong, I know a few cops and they're mostly good blokes, only a couple I know of who are a bit strange to say the least.

Sorry for being off the main topic.

Devil CV8
27-12-2005, 08:56 PM
I know for a fact you can request to see the readout from the radar gun on the HWP car at the time of the offence. If they deny you access to this reading i beleive you have very very good grounds to contest it under. Actually for NSW at least that is incorrect. Police do not have to show you the readout. One of the reasons for this is by them allowing you to view the readout, they are taking responsibility for your safety and if you are hit by a passing vehicle, they become responsible.


Id suggest starting by writting a letter to the RTA along the lines of "im a good driver with a good record...blah blah blah" and see where that gets you. Failing that id suggest if you really want to contend it further to check with someone in the legal professionl in the know on this sort of thing.

Good luck mate, keep us posted!
If he is going to contest it in court, writing a letter is the worse thing to do... why make the police case by admitting in a letter that he was speeding?

Keep in mind there is a case before the Goulburn court atm which can see mobile radar fines thrown out. It basically comes down to after spending over 15k on legal bills it has been proven that the NSW police force have not adhered to the national standard guidlines when it comes to calibration of the radar units. The magistrate has adjourned the case and told the defendant to have his lawer ask the DPP to drop the case. If the case is dropped, no precedence is set...if the case proceeds and he wins, then that throws open the validity of all mobile radar TIN's that have been issued in NSW.

I have a copy of the australian standard for radar use...there are a few extracts on here if someone wishes to search for them..

VX2VESS
27-12-2005, 09:14 PM
PS: I've suggested dad gets the speedo officially checked soon, because he knows he was doing 80km/h according to the speedo. Any advice on where to get this done?


any calibrated dyno should do with a report. police i think use a few for this

Ryzz
27-12-2005, 10:12 PM
PS: I've suggested dad gets the speedo officially checked soon, because he knows he was doing 80km/h according to the speedo. Any advice on where to get this done?
Speak to a mob called "Injection Perfection", they are the NSW Distro for Pacemaker, and they also do all the speedo calibrations for cop cars on their dyno. Saw a number of HWP & police patrol cars being dynoed there for that reason. Otherwise just speak to Sam/Sonny and get them to throw it on the Dyno just as a "is it accurate" and if its out maybe go down the Injection route as their maybe a way out of it if your speedo is that far out.

Ryzz
27-12-2005, 10:16 PM
Actually for NSW at least that is incorrect. Police do not have to show you the readout. One of the reasons for this is by them allowing you to view the readout, they are taking responsibility for your safety and if you are hit by a passing vehicle, they become responsible.Didnt know that, i was under the understanding that they had to show you. Stand correct thx Devil

[quoet=Devil CV8]
If he is going to contest it in court, writing a letter is the worse thing to do... why make the police case by admitting in a letter that he was speeding?[/quote]Do you have to admit in the letter that you were speeding, Just to say, i wasnt speeding, i have a clean driving history that proves i have not been ticketed for speeding in the last 15 years, blah blah blah. Still makes sense NOT to admit guilt when your innocent.


Keep in mind there is a case before the Goulburn court atm which can see mobile radar fines thrown out. It basically comes down to after spending over 15k on legal bills it has been proven that the NSW police force have not adhered to the national standard guidlines when it comes to calibration of the radar units. The magistrate has adjourned the case and told the defendant to have his lawer ask the DPP to drop the case. If the case is dropped, no precedence is set...if the case proceeds and he wins, then that throws open the validity of all mobile radar TIN's that have been issued in NSW.Do you know where we could find some more information or follow this one mate? Could be very very interesting to see where this one goes.
[/QUOTE]

Devil CV8
27-12-2005, 10:30 PM
Didnt know that, i was under the understanding that they had to show you. Stand correct thx DevilNo problems. It is a common misconception. Some will show you, but they are under no obligation.


Do you have to admit in the letter that you were speeding, Just to say, i wasnt speeding, i have a clean driving history that proves i have not been ticketed for speeding in the last 15 years, blah blah blah. Still makes sense NOT to admit guilt when your innocent.For the letter to work, you normally have to admit you did wrong, clean driving record, don't normally speed, blah blah.......


Do you know where we could find some more information or follow this one mate? Could be very very interesting to see where this one goes.
I do believe there was a mention of it on this forum with a link to the newspaper article

HRT 8
28-12-2005, 08:05 AM
These are the incorrect pieces to your post.

Hey,
Donít quote me as a professional here but hereís a few things to consider.
The copa had 100 sitting on the radar from someone else who got away. He needed to hit the quota (Oh yes they do have them ;) ) and found your dad as a target. (This you will find extremely hard to prove even under oath the cop will no doubt lie to cover his arse and this would be almost impossible to prove in court)
Unlikely as it makes it very difficult to detect another moving object whilst the radar is in Locked mode. (radar type permitting)



Now with the highway, is there a gap between the lanes? Islands? Grass? Medium Strips? If so the angles that would need to be taken into account from the gap between his vehicle and yours would be impossible for a cop to work out on the fly. It would drastically impair the radar reading also. (Photos)
Angles dont have to be "worked out on the fly." It does effect radar readings BUT it works in favour of the target as the further away from 180 degrees the target is from the radar the lower the speed reading detected. Ie at right angles the speed is 0



Although the cop might know his radar bullshit, has he been trained in it? Write a letter and ask for proof of some sort. (A superintendent should supply this) Boss's dont allow this to occur as it is far easier to qualify police in its use than it is to withdraw numerous tickets or be awarded costs against in court. Requesting the police members authority for the radar could only be done thru FOI. They wont supply it to just anybody, however it willbe inlcuded on a Brief of Evidence.



Has the equipment been serviced and maintained according to procedures. Once again ask for proof. (There should be a radar sheet from some third party that you can get) Again refer above replies.



The vehicle that they are in, what sort of tires are on it? Has their car computer been recalibrated to suit the speed adjustment of their tires? (Iím not sure what radar they were using but this could affect the reading.)The radar uses two seperate readings. Neither have anyhting to do with the car or its tyres fitted on it. A radar beam is used as a reference to obtain a patrol speed (the police vehicle) a second is used to obtain the target speed.



I hope this helps ey, you might want to get a lawyer that specializes in radar also that can/is/get an expert witness on radar. Although it might cost around the $600 mark you might just find you will come away with a win and you wont have to pay your fee's (or you will get reimbursed - then go to the media and spread the word)

In reading this, some of you might think I am against the use of radar and cops ect.. Iím not but I am against the use of them not doing their job properly and not supplying good justification for at least half the shit they do. I work in government also and have to provide justification for what I do yet they are law enforcement and according to them they can fall through loop holes just for them here and there. It shits me right off, if the job cant be done properly donít fugging do it at all as far as Iím concerned - let someone else do it.

The last is good very advice. Speak to a solicitor who specialises in traffic Infringements. They can be worth their weight in gold.

Radars are not infallible. But used within the guidlines, they are extremely accurate.

minux
28-12-2005, 08:25 AM
Why do people always think police have quota's? :)

hxute
28-12-2005, 09:35 AM
If it was a radar fitted into the car, it is a shame that he did not ask to see the "locked" display on the unit. I know that most lock the display so that drivers can see for themselves. Also, if it was a HWP car, then it was probably fitted with an In Car Video. These activate as soon as they pull on the lights. They work in with the radar, in that the speed is recorded on "tape".

The PM
28-12-2005, 10:59 AM
Angles dont have to be "worked out on the fly." It does effect radar readings BUT it works in favour of the target as the further away from 180 degrees the target is from the radar the lower the speed reading detected. Ie at right angles the speed is 0


So they are Doppler radars HRT?

Interesting.......notch 90 degrees to your heading, drop some chaff, accelerate out of the area before the radar has a chance to re-acquire... :D

surfmaster59
28-12-2005, 11:07 AM
Also, if it was a HWP car, then it was probably fitted with an In Car Video. These activate as soon as they pull on the lights. They work in with the radar, in that the speed is recorded on "tape".

Almost but not quite - the ICV is activated when the lights are, but, it backcaptures the previous 30 seconds so that anything occuring in the 30 seconds prior to the lights being activated is automatically and permanently saved to the hard drive.

Falchoon
28-12-2005, 06:48 PM
I can see this challenge costing a whoile lot more than $225 by the time you factor in a day's pay to attend court, paying a soliciter, getting the speedo checked etc etc. and there's no guarantee that you'll win, and from the sounds of it even if you do you won't neccessarily get your money back. Yes, it's wrong of the cop to book you/your father for doing 20km/h over when you weren't but hey life isn't fair, get used to it. I'm sure many of us have been in the same situation. My advice would be just pay the fine and get on with your life. Sorry if this seems harsh, but in the scheme of things it's a reasonably trivial offence/fine, not like they're trying to stitch you up for murder.

marcu5
28-12-2005, 08:43 PM
Why do people always think police have quota's? :)

I have a couple of mates and a step-sister that are coppers ;) They wouldnt bullshit to me.

Evil LS1
28-12-2005, 08:53 PM
Ah respect and HWP, that's like intelligence and George W Bush.

BTW I represented myself in court against a dipshit cop and won. Should of seen the prosecutors face when he saw I had photographic evidence and knew some physics; boy did have to clutch a shitload of straws to try and present a case. Should have seen his faced when I shook his hand after the verdict and said have a nice day. Mine wasn't a speeding case though.

APCLB
28-12-2005, 10:07 PM
Almost but not quite - the ICV is activated when the lights are, but, it backcaptures the previous 30 seconds so that anything occuring in the 30 seconds prior to the lights being activated is automatically and permanently saved to the hard drive.
What wrong with at least going to the station this car based at & asking if you can view the ICV,nothing lost maybe heaps gained?

seldo
28-12-2005, 11:17 PM
I can see this challenge costing a whoile lot more than $225 by the time you factor in a day's pay to attend court, paying a soliciter, getting the speedo checked etc etc. and there's no guarantee that you'll win, and from the sounds of it even if you do you won't neccessarily get your money back. Yes, it's wrong of the cop to book you/your father for doing 20km/h over when you weren't but hey life isn't fair, get used to it. I'm sure many of us have been in the same situation. My advice would be just pay the fine and get on with your life. Sorry if this seems harsh, but in the scheme of things it's a reasonably trivial offence/fine, not like they're trying to stitch you up for murder.
Except that sometimes you have to be prepared to stand up for principle. And also, the $225 isn't the end of it - insurance premiums, just for a start. But at the same time, most coppers have far better things to do than set-up someone who isn't causing a problem

Devil CV8
29-12-2005, 06:03 AM
Why do people always think police have quota's? :)
They may not have "quotas" but every employee is measured by their employer based on the amount of work they do. The easiest way to measure a HWP officer's work output is by the number of TIN's issued. It is a short step to determine this equals a quota.

If one HWP officer is consistantly issuing less TIN's than all other officers in his area, that officer will be counselled. I've seen the result after a particular HWP officer who used to issue a lot of warnings, now issues more TIN's.

surfmaster59
29-12-2005, 10:09 AM
What wrong with at least going to the station this car based at & asking if you can view the ICV,nothing lost maybe heaps gained?

Absolutely nothing, I posted that same suggestion two days ago, one of the very reasons it is used is to counter some of these "expert" opinions.

ROGUE
29-12-2005, 02:08 PM
So they are Doppler radars HRT?

Interesting.......notch 90 degrees to your heading, drop some chaff, accelerate out of the area before the radar has a chance to re-acquire... :D

:lol:

or, you could always find out what frequency the radar is operating on, and find it's blind speed.

although, doing 80.4425564 kmh might be a little hard without being in a vaccuum environment :)

Redhot_57
31-12-2005, 04:18 AM
You know what they should really do. If an officer has a speeding fine contested then he/she should put up their own money to defend their case rather then the government. I'm sure they would think twice when they pull someone over if they had to do that!
And just to be fair if the defendent loses then they have to pay the officers court costs.

Oh yeah, nothing like a bit of sensible, informed opinion.. No offence, but did you actually read what you wrote before you hit the SEND button??

None of us likes to cop a ticket, Ive been there and done that before too..

A good mate of mine is in the highway patrol, and i can tell you for sure (in NSW anyway)

1. there is no quota or minimum ticket number placed on police

2. all radars etc in nsw are checked and verified in an approved laboratory every 6 months. If you dont believe me, take a matter to court and view the radar certificates.

My advice - get your old man to write a letter to the infringement bureau. If he has a good driving record, odds on he will get a warning. Certainly cheaper than a day in court.

CarlFST60L
31-12-2005, 09:21 AM
You know in Asia, the biggest fine is US$100 for speeding, and there is no points, the road death toll is smal, acccept for skooters, and thats not from speeding... Mean while i cop 9 months and $1600 for 45km/h ova, which was on a dual lane, devided road, dual emergency lanes, crusiing at around 1500rpm in sixth gear with not a car in site, no traffic lights, intersections, just a coppa hiding behind a fence with his butt ugle head and lidar hanging out... poofta...

All i learnt was, get Chris to take it to court, just make sure its not Jan 12, coz i have him booked, again :( i have his mobile number etc

seldo
31-12-2005, 10:54 AM
I gained heaps of respect for the police last night.....
A mate of mine was driving along normally when suddenly the mirror is full of the dreaded red and blue flashers..:shock: The copper comes to the window and says
"Do you know why I pulled you over..?"
Terry: "Ermmm...I guess it was because I was talking on my mobile phone...."
C: "Correct. Do you know that is illegal?"
T: "Yes"
C: "Why were you talking on the phone then?"
T: "Because it rang and I answered it.."
C: Can I see your licence please?"
T: "...Ermmm...I haven't got one..."
C: "You are unlicenced????? :shock: :shock:"
T: "No, I am licenced but I lost my wallet a couple of months ago and therefore don't have the actual licence... I know I should have applied for a new one before now but I've been pretty busy."
C: "Is this your car?...
T: "Yes...but ....gulp.....my licence is still a Victorian one - actually, I've been living here for about 6 months now.....But I haven't changed it over yet...although I know I should have changed it after 6 weeks......."
C: Yes - That's correct - you are required to do that after 6 weeks. What is your name, current and previous address and your d.o.b.?"
C: Goes to his car to check...and then comes back.
C. "Well, what you've told me tallies ok...I see it's your birthday in 2 days..?
T: "Yes...I guess this is going to be nice birthday present for me - a big fat fine...?"
C: "Well, so far the fines total up to about $1000..."
T: goes wobbly at the knees...
C: "Would you blow into the breathalyser please?"
T: "At least I know that I'm ok there....(blows....zero..)"
C: "Well, at least that's good. These offences are viewed pretty seriously....but...since you haven't tried to make silly excuses and have been completely honest with me .....I'll let you off with a warning...But get your licence changed next week when the Transport Office re-opens..."
T: dumbfounded...."YES SIR!!!"
C: "Have a good night"

So, they are not all bad...

Febs
31-12-2005, 12:38 PM
So, they are not all bad...

Absolutely. I've been witness to similar stories too.

It's just a shame that dad struck one who wasn't willing to budge. :(

Cheers
- Febs.

CarlFST60L
31-12-2005, 03:02 PM
So, they are not all bad...

I had three good ones, then, followed by two bad :( cant wait to get my licence back in 2007 :(:mad: :bash: :box:

VZKOOP
31-12-2005, 03:30 PM
If your dad has a good driving record a letter with the facts and a reference to his record will usually get you off with a warning. Mind you his record must be pretty clean for at least 5 years, the longer the better.

This - if it is successful, which it has been for me - will save solicitors fees and a lot of heart ache should he fail at court.

Cheers
Kris

keepleft
31-12-2005, 04:45 PM
Actually for NSW at least that is incorrect. Police do not have to show you the readout. One of the reasons for this is by them allowing you to view the readout, they are taking responsibility for your safety and if you are hit by a passing vehicle, they become responsible.

Indeed, Workcover issue-here you are considered to be entering the officers work area. You must be issued with a safety vest compliant with AS.


Keep in mind there is a case before the Goulburn court atm which can see mobile radar fines thrown out. It basically comes down to after spending over 15k on legal bills it has been proven that the NSW police force have not adhered to the national standard guidlines when it comes to calibration of the radar units. The magistrate has adjourned the case and told the defendant to have his lawer ask the DPP to drop the case. If the case is dropped, no precedence is set...if the case proceeds and he wins, then that throws open the validity of all mobile radar TIN's that have been issued in NSW.

I have a copy of the australian standard for radar use...there are a few extracts on here if someone wishes to search for them..

The States are only just learning that they required to comply with National Metrology. Some State courts in the past, QLD for example, had supported in outcome QLD police radar et al operation which 'generally' but not completely followed Australian Standard requirement. On further challenge, we see now recent QLD legislation passed requiring QLD police to fully comply with the Australian Standard on radar et al use.

Again, where the States have a Commonwealth Standard in this area, they *must* operate fully by it. UN Conventions in turn bind the Commonwealth and then the States, more so than say 'Treaties'. A State going it alone or ignoring part of or all of a national standard can face High Court action.




And so it goes...

Devil CV8
31-12-2005, 06:25 PM
A good mate of mine is in the highway patrol, and i can tell you for sure (in NSW anyway)

1. there is no quota or minimum ticket number placed on police Good mate or not. If any HWP officer is consistantly writing less TIN's than others in his area, then he will be counselled. So while there is no hard and fast quota (per se) they still need to write enough TIN's so they don't come under undue attention from their boss.

2. all radars etc in nsw are checked and verified in an approved laboratory every 6 months. If you dont believe me, take a matter to court and view the radar certificates. The problem is, and this is what the goulburn court case has uncovered, the approved labratory is not following all the manufacturers steps in the calibration process. Doesn't matter if they are still as accurate, if the manufacturer says do 1, 2, 3, 4 but the lab does 1,2,4 (because 3 isn't really needed) then it can be defeated in court

, odds on he will get a warning. Certainly cheaper than a day in court. Still gets the points though. In NSW the magistrates can't even kill the points.
And as for the "cheaper than a day in court" that is exactly what "they" want you to do..pay the fine and dont go to court

SV8VY
01-01-2006, 08:16 AM
You know in Asia, the biggest fine is US$100 for speeding, and there is no points, the road death toll is smal, acccept for skooters, and thats not from speeding... Mean while i cop 9 months and $1600 for 45km/h ova, which was on a dual lane, devided road, dual emergency lanes, crusiing at around 1500rpm in sixth gear with not a car in site, no traffic lights, intersections, just a coppa hiding behind a fence with his butt ugle head and lidar hanging out... poofta...

All i learnt was, get Chris to take it to court, just make sure its not Jan 12, coz i have him booked, again :( i have his mobile number etcAsk Chris to tell you about my case :D I was supposed to lose my licence but was the only way I could work so we challenged it .Took a while and wasnt cheap but I was still on the road making money.
Tell him Bob sends his regards.

Fezz
02-01-2006, 01:29 AM
I got done last night on my way home from our holiday to Forster - 121km/h in a 100km/h zone.

This is where things get interesting though. I was travelling in the left lane on a dual lane section of the Pacific Hwy with cruise control set on about 105km/h, but would of been doing about 110km/h due to a hill (I had my eyes on the speedo just before this incident took place). I had pulled in behind a silver VX SS Commodore (which was travelling faster than myself) and that's when I noticed the VX slam its brakes on making me have to hit mine as well. The HWP flashed his head lights and proceeded to do a U-turn when it was safe. I thought to myself "Ahh poor bastard on the VX"... The HWP then came up behind me and no doubt saw my car (silver VY SS with P plates), and has obviously just grabbed the first car he seen. :rolleyes:

Straight away I told him this, and he told me he had it all on footage and I was overtaking the other car which is complete BS considering it was in front of me. I asked him to please check the footage again as he obviously had gotten my car and the silver VX mixed up. He said he would check later, so I have no clue what that means. Being a younger bloke I didn't really know what to do or say as I haven't had a speeding fine or any fine for that matter in my 3 years of driving. So I lost 6 points (double demerits) and got fined $225 for something I didn't even do.

I really don't know what to do, I don't have the funds available to contest it in court but I guess if I had to I would as I am not ruining my driving record and insurance premium for something that someone else done.

Even if I was doing 105-110km/h in the 100km/h zone, the HWP car obviously got the speed of the car in front of me which was pulling away from me.

I haven't had much to do with Police, but I couldn't believe how rude the officer was.

The video footage they record, can they view it on the spot or must it be taken to the station? Also how long do they keep it on record as he told me he had the whole thing on video, which will be the only thing that can save me.

****, it just angers me. I'll probably just sell the car now. :box:

If anyone has any suggestions or you've been in a similar situation please post or send me a PM. Sorry for blabbing on.


Cheers,
Matt

VZKOOP
02-01-2006, 08:14 AM
I got done last night on my way home from our holiday to Forster - 121km/h in a 100km/h zone.

This is where things get interesting though. I was travelling in the left lane on a dual lane section of the Pacific Hwy with cruise control set on about 105km/h, but would of been doing about 110km/h due to a hill (I had my eyes on the speedo just before this incident took place). I had pulled in behind a silver VX SS Commodore (which was travelling faster than myself) and that's when I noticed the VX slam its brakes on making me have to hit mine as well. The HWP flashed his head lights and proceeded to do a U-turn when it was safe. I thought to myself "Ahh poor bastard on the VX"... The HWP then came up behind me and no doubt saw my car (silver VY SS with P plates), and has obviously just grabbed the first car he seen. :rolleyes:

Straight away I told him this, and he told me he had it all on footage and I was overtaking the other car which is complete BS considering it was in front of me. I asked him to please check the footage again as he obviously had gotten my car and the silver VX mixed up. He said he would check later, so I have no clue what that means. Being a younger bloke I didn't really know what to do or say as I haven't had a speeding fine or any fine for that matter in my 3 years of driving. So I lost 6 points (double demerits) and got fined $225 for something I didn't even do.

I really don't know what to do, I don't have the funds available to contest it in court but I guess if I had to I would as I am not ruining my driving record and insurance premium for something that someone else done.

Even if I was doing 105-110km/h in the 100km/h zone, the HWP car obviously got the speed of the car in front of me which was pulling away from me.

I haven't had much to do with Police, but I couldn't believe how rude the officer was.

The video footage they record, can they view it on the spot or must it be taken to the station? Also how long do they keep it on record as he told me he had the whole thing on video, which will be the only thing that can save me.

****, it just angers me. I'll probably just sell the car now. :box:

If anyone has any suggestions or you've been in a similar situation please post or send me a PM. Sorry for blabbing on.


Cheers,
Matt

First thing you need to do is write down all the facts exactly as they occurred to the best of your memory. Then write a letter to the director of the infringement processing bureau with the facts as you remember them asking for him to cancel the infringement notice. You will have a couple of extra weeks to consult a solicitor - most will do this for free and advise you on whether you have a case against the fine imposed. Look in Motor or Wheels or Australian Motorcycle News for the solicitors ads as those guys are highly informed in traffic offences. If you do need to go to court get the exact costs of defending your case from the solicitor and let him know of your financial situation. They are flexible on fees and payment so the cost may not be as severe as you fear. If there is footage of the incident and it is showing what you state then in all likelyhood the case will be dropped before it gets to court anyway.
Be really cheeky and ask for costs if you win. :D

Good Luck

james2
02-01-2006, 08:37 AM
I have a younger brother who is a general duties cop in SA they are required to do 1 hour per man per shift on traffic ( radar ect) so it is not so much a quota but a lots of hours in total in any given time frame.He is stationed at a country station with several medium sized towns in a 50k radious.

XLR8 V8
02-01-2006, 08:38 AM
The video footage they record, can they view it on the spot or must it be taken to the station? Also how long do they keep it on record as he told me he had the whole thing on video, which will be the only thing that can save me.

I don't think they can view it in the car .... and I doubt he will view it later (call me a skeptic on the effort he'll put in to help you)
In a similar position (provided he had already handed over the ticket) I would have asked him to write down the the phone number of his station and supervisor and tell him you'll be contacting them within the next few days to confirm they have reviewed the recording and whether the fine will be torn up.

Fezz
02-01-2006, 08:53 AM
I don't think they can view it in the car .... and I doubt he will view it later (call me a skeptic on the effort he'll put in to help you)
In a similar position (provided he had already handed over the ticket) I would have asked him to write down the the phone number of his station and supervisor and tell him you'll be contacting them within the next few days to confirm they have reviewed the recording and whether the fine will be torn up.

I know, I thought the same thing after it all happened.

I buckled, I just got very nervous and didn't even know what I was doing. :(

VZKOOP,
Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a try.

Cat755
02-01-2006, 09:52 AM
Matt; I would do as VZKOOP has advised and write a letter appealling the infringement. In Queensland that letter is sent to the Officer in Charge of the police district where the HWP officer is stationed, you could call your local police station to obtain this information. The infringement notice will have the HWP officers name on it and should have the Police Station that he operates from. State all the facts as they occured but do not admit to exceeding the speed limit as you have stated in your post. My understanding of the NSW demerit points system is that the points for first and second level speeding offences are the same, only the fine differs. Express in your letter your good driving history. It would be good if you could also remember the registration details of the silver VX, even if it is only a part of it.
Once they recieve your letter of appeal all action on your infringement notice will be put on hold until it is completed. You should also recieve a letter from them acknowledging this. I would send the letter by registered mail to make sure they get it. This last bit of advise relates to an appeal in Qld. but should be similar for NSW.
Best of luck, police do have a habit of paying closer attention to P platers these days.

Fezz
24-01-2006, 10:25 AM
I got done last night on my way home from our holiday to Forster - 121km/h in a 100km/h zone.

This is where things get interesting though. I was travelling in the left lane on a dual lane section of the Pacific Hwy with cruise control set on about 105km/h, but would of been doing about 110km/h due to a hill (I had my eyes on the speedo just before this incident took place). I had pulled in behind a silver VX SS Commodore (which was travelling faster than myself) and that's when I noticed the VX slam its brakes on making me have to hit mine as well. The HWP flashed his head lights and proceeded to do a U-turn when it was safe. I thought to myself "Ahh poor bastard on the VX"... The HWP then came up behind me and no doubt saw my car (silver VY SS with P plates), and has obviously just grabbed the first car he seen. :rolleyes:

Straight away I told him this, and he told me he had it all on footage and I was overtaking the other car which is complete BS considering it was in front of me. I asked him to please check the footage again as he obviously had gotten my car and the silver VX mixed up. He said he would check later, so I have no clue what that means. Being a younger bloke I didn't really know what to do or say as I haven't had a speeding fine or any fine for that matter in my 3 years of driving. So I lost 6 points (double demerits) and got fined $225 for something I didn't even do.

I really don't know what to do, I don't have the funds available to contest it in court but I guess if I had to I would as I am not ruining my driving record and insurance premium for something that someone else done.

Even if I was doing 105-110km/h in the 100km/h zone, the HWP car obviously got the speed of the car in front of me which was pulling away from me.

I haven't had much to do with Police, but I couldn't believe how rude the officer was.

The video footage they record, can they view it on the spot or must it be taken to the station? Also how long do they keep it on record as he told me he had the whole thing on video, which will be the only thing that can save me.

****, it just angers me. I'll probably just sell the car now. :box:

If anyone has any suggestions or you've been in a similar situation please post or send me a PM. Sorry for blabbing on.


Cheers,
Matt

Sorry to dig this thread back up - but I have an update on the fine I recieved...

I have been ringing the Infringment Processing Berau since I got the fine trying to find out the officer who issued it and where he is stationed, with no luck (I didn't get any details at the time of the incident).

Anyway, I rang them again this morning asking the same question. The person on the other end of the phone who was very helpful this time told me it was all "finalised". Not knowing what he was talking about, he then explained on the 20th of this month they sent out a letter apologising for the inconvenience and that the fine was incorrectly handed out. Obviously the officer has gone and reviewed the footage when he got back to the station and realised it was a mistake, which really surprised me and has now restored some faith I lost in the NSW Police after this incident.

All is good now, no fine, no loss of points and a clean driving record.

Thanks to those who PM'd me with advice - I won't mention any names you know who you are and for that I am grateful.


Cheers,
Matt

alexcs
24-01-2006, 10:33 AM
fantastic result.

Aus8
24-01-2006, 11:19 AM
There is a God!!!

PepeLePew
24-01-2006, 11:32 AM
This one will be on Ripleys!

RedVYIISS
24-01-2006, 06:34 PM
That's a fantastic result. Good on the Copper. If you found out who he is and where he's stationed, send him a thank you note. I suspect their day-in, day-out routine doesn't provide many thank you's.

I had an experience a few months ago. Driving up a steep 2 lane hill, behind traffic doing 60 in a 70 zone. A truck crawling up the inside lane, 4 cars in a queue overtaking the truck. Cars 1 & 2 pull to the left lane after overtaking truck, car 3 sitting infront of me continues in outside lane doing 60, my blood pressure slowly rising. Cars 1 & 2 are pulling away from car 3 so a big gap beteen car 2 and the truck is happening in the curbside lane, car 3 continues to sit infront of me refusing to move into the now huge gap in the curb lane.

I spit dummy and overtake car 3 by blasting into the curb lane, overtaking car 3 on the inside, quickly catch cars 1 & 2 so move back to the right hand lane and overtake them (prolly doing 100 odd), start dropping speed as the blood pressure subsides when car 3, a Falcon wagon now somewhat distant, starts flashing red & Blue and siren! (driven by a good lookin little girly in civies). She pulls me over, comes up to drivers door (quite a dangerous spot as very narrow shoulder, she no vest, me having no intention of getting out).

Abreviated conversation:

PO: "you were speeding, must have been doing over 100 km/kr, why?"
ME: "You annoyed me for not being courteous and moving to the inside lane like EVERYONE else"
PO: "There's no requirement to move to the left unless speed zone is 80 or above"
ME: "I'll take your word for that, something I didn't know. Regardless, if you're holding someone up it's common courtesy to move over and let them by."
PO: I was doing the speed limit in any case."
ME: "You were doing 60 km/hr in a 70 zone, the traffic that was infront of you was pulling away from you."
PO: "I beg to differ, you'll be recieving an infringement notice in the mail."
ME: "Thank you, have a nice day."

I then drove off, and 150 metres down the road is a big roadside neon sign "Keep left unless overtaking". Driving up the same hill the next morning I notice a permanent sign at the base of the hill, approx 60 metres prior to where I would have been overtaking her, "Keep left unless overtaking". I see red again!! and start taking photographs of the signs.

Then the infringement notice arrives, gets wet in the letterbox after a storm and is mainly illegible, but fine is $100 odd and 1 point, <15 km/hr over. Fine and points are so small I just say fug it and pay it!

Sorry to bore you but I feel better now :soap:

Fezz
24-01-2006, 07:00 PM
RedVYIISS,

Good story, I know exactly what you mean.

I'm grateful the copper has reviewed the footage and they have withdrawn the fine, but if this didn't happen it would of made it near impossible and costly for me to try fight it (I'm a P plater who would of had 1 point left so I would of been treading on thin ice with a tooth pick for a little while). :eek:

Sometimes you just had to smile and cop it on the chin as you did RedVYIISS, but it still shits you none the less.


Cheers,
Matt

sloone
28-01-2006, 09:31 PM
Given they said they posted a letter on the 20th and your post was on the 24th have you recived the letter yet. Just curious in case they were giving you a line of BS.

Fezz
29-01-2006, 01:22 PM
Definately got the letter - fine is now non existence. :nyuk:

I couldn't believe it, but all is good in the end.

df1
06-03-2006, 03:16 PM
Hey Febs,
If your old man believes that he wasn't speeding then I would suggest that he contest it.
I have contested two speeding fines in court for a win and a loss. I represented myself because I thought that paying for a lawyer would cost more than the fine itself.
The fact that the Officer should have a record of the conversation where he denies speeding will help his case also as this will be raised as evidence in court.
The process in court is that the Police prosecutor will question the Officer about his recollection and about whether he followed procedures etc.
It is then your turn to question the officer. This is where you introduce your evidence. Any evidence that you want the magistrate to be aware of must be presented as a question to the witness(officer). eg if you want to say that you believe that the radar calibration was wrong you could ask him if it had been tested or whether it had been recalibrated lately etc. If it has then ask if it was checked before calibration to see whether it was accurate before re-calibration (if not then how do they know that it was accurate at the time). If you just want to make a point you say "I put it to you ...." e.g. "I put it to you that there was electrical storms that night that could affect the reading".
Once you have finished questioning the officer and therefore introducing any evidence that you think might raise doubt about the accuracy of the reading, you are then asked if you would like to be cross examined by the Police prosectuor. Here you will move to the witness box and be placed under oath. I believe that evidence you give here is held in much higher regard by the magistrate than other evidence you may introduce.
The police prosecutor will question you about the incident and will use any letters you send the police admitting guilt as evidence. They may even ask you if you were speeding. In my case I was booked for 75 in a 60 zone. I said that I may well have exceeded the speed limit at some stage by up to 5km/h but was sure that I had not exceeded it by as much as the officer said. In your case your father can admit to reaching up to 85 but nowhere near 100. I think because he is being charged with doing 100 it is a different charge to doing 85 and therefore you can admit to breaking the speed limit but plead not guilty to the charge that they have put forward. I believe that you don't have to prove that you are not guilty of speeding only that you are not guilty of the charge that they present.
In the end it comes down to whether the magistrate believes there is enough doubt to let you off.
If you lose as I did against a camera last time it is up to the magistrate to determine a penalty. People say that this can be larger than the original fine and you could lose your licence etc but this is unikely. They take into account your driving record which your fathers is very good and what the original penalty was. As I said I lost my last case but the magistrate just imposed the original fine. No court costs or other costs just some of my time to defend it.
I thought it was all worth it just for the experience.
Hope this helps or at least does in the future.

HRT 8
06-03-2006, 05:11 PM
Df1, you do understand that this thread is some 2 and half months old??

The 28 days period to object to the original infringement notice has long passed.

df1
06-03-2006, 06:53 PM
Df1, you do understand that this thread is some 2 and half months old??

The 28 days period to object to the original infringement notice has long passed.

Yes I do but I thought that if he had put in the objection it would help him understand what the process is when you get to court.

Also it may help others who are thinking about contesting.

hsv1413
06-03-2006, 08:03 PM
Df1, you do understand that this thread is some 2 and half months old??

The 28 days period to object to the original infringement notice has long passed.

Well picked up brother!
I noticed the same and thought, way too much time on their hands.

hsv1413
06-03-2006, 08:04 PM
Yes I do but I thought that if he had put in the objection it would help him understand what the process is when you get to court.

Also it may help others who are thinking about contesting.

Unless you are a lawyer, you may want to be careful about giving legal advice. Nice to try help, but the risk is yours.

XsPwr2W8
06-03-2006, 09:24 PM
These radars are crap, they are calibrated by uni students at RMIT uni (no offence if anyone is a RMIT student). And working in a calibration lab myself it my understanding that any device that is used to obtain a a result that could be used in court is to be calibrated by a lab accredited by NATA (National Association of Testing Authorities) which they are not, and the reason for this beeing that these radars will not meet the accuracy requirments nessary to be endorsed by NATA.:flip3:

VRIIClubby
06-03-2006, 10:30 PM
These radars are crap, they are calibrated by uni students at RMIT uni (no offence if anyone is a RMIT student). And working in a calibration lab myself it my understanding that any device that is used to obtain a a result that could be used in court is to be calibrated by a lab accredited by NATA (National Association of Testing Authorities) which they are not, and the reason for this beeing that these radars will not meet the accuracy requirments nessary to be endorsed by NATA.:flip3:

If this is true then why isnt this happening in the Goulburn case Devil was mentioning? Any new news on that Devil??????

Also Devil, referring to your older posts in this thread, "Magistrates cant change the points or dismiss them" - to that effect, is this completley true? I was found Guilty with no conviction recorded... no points lost there...
My Dad was found guilty in court for a stupid speed 2 years ago and was given a very weak 2 week suspension (guilty) but lost no points...Not being a smartarse just wondering????