BMW vs MONARO

[leethl]

I test drove my mates new 6cyl BMW 95k worth of car, drove ok bit under powered. I wouldnt pay that sort of money for it. I then gave him a drive of my CV8Z (manual) it just blue him away he was amazed how good and how better the Monaro felt overall. He left with his tail between his legs thinking
what we all know how nice a car the Monaro realy is. Also another good mate
who owns a auto work shop test drove a new Falcon GT, the owner is so piss--- off with it, my mate said a 6cyl Commodore would give it a run no dought, he couldnt get over how little proformance it had.
Leethl

[Ghosn]

GT was auto right?

[Red CV8 R]

A number of my friends and co-workers own two door BMWs and they are all pretty impressed by my Monaro and I really havent been that impressed by driving their 3 series as far as performance and handling goes however they do have other really appealing qualities so I understand why people choose them. Still I think it shows what good value the Monaro is.

[Peter B - CV8]

IMHO you really need to get BMW's upgraded with the M power to have them perform properly - but at that price it becomes a bit of a wank.

[ADSXR8]

what we all know how nice a car the Monaro realy is. Also another good mate
who owns a auto work shop test drove a new Falcon GT, the owner is so piss--- off with it, my mate said a 6cyl Commodore would give it a run no dought, he couldnt get over how little proformance it had.
Leethl

Even a 52 year old can write crap................

General Motors would wish they sold as many units as BMW they would have maintained its production. Facts are not in favour of your point.

And, if a BMW driver wanted performance he'd probably buy a 6 series. Not a 3.

[Stocky]

Brother has an 2003 M3 SMG. Bloody impressive piece of kit. Can be doodled around like a shopping trolley or fanged as hard as you dare. The SMG has 11 modes - one of which is a launch control. You put the accelerator to the floor & the electroics dials up 3200rpm, tap the SMG lever & you are accelerating to redline almost instantly with perfect traction/acceleration before the next tap to change to 2nd gear.

In the wet you can do crazy things & you look like a driver with it all under control. Oh yeah, and fantastic brakes & engine. Great sound when pushed hard.

The shock horror is $140k. But the interior looks it & general drive is impressive. The cosy cabin makes the car a 2+2 rather than a four seater like the Monaro.

My daily driver is a VY2 SV8 M6 by comparison. If they were $100k cheaper they would sell alot more.


Stocky

[Red CV8 R]

IMHO you really need to get BMW's upgraded with the M power to have them perform properly - but at that price it becomes a bit of a wank.

M3, Now you are talking! :drool: One of my favourite cars. Pity about the price tag though. The CSL version is even better. One of my mates 325i has lots of M options including suspension and it is very impresive but still did not out handle my old VX SS with shocks and springs. One thing that would annoy me is even though he turns off all the traction and stability controls they still remain on in some part, it was funny watching him going hell for leather around a corner and the thing suddenly nearlly stops dead in its tracks! Still as I said there are other qualities that make the BMW so desirable, things the Holdens dont have.

[raff]

I have a lightly modded VX clubby and a BMW 3 series. No doubt the clubby is higher powered and faster than my BM but im many ways it is an obviously cheaper car. I have driven and been driven in many monaros and basically it is a two door taxi (stock that is!). The newer HSV's have finally reticfied some some of ride performance and braking abililty than stands out above the holden range. Even my old 2001 BMW sh1ts all over the quality of driving pleasure of any HSV/ holden Ive driven. If your after a fast car- get a 5.7/6.O V8 auz machine, if your after well built performer I find it hard to look past a BM (or Audi!) Dont get me wrong I love driving my clubby but I find it hard to believe your mate would find a 90k BM less impressive than a holden, unless he purely considers cheap performance as a priority.

[SS_Fury]

Brother has an 2003 M3 SMG. Bloody impressive piece of kit. Can be doodled around like a shopping trolley or fanged as hard as you dare. The SMG has 11 modes - one of which is a launch control. You put the accelerator to the floor & the electroics dials up 3200rpm, tap the SMG lever & you are accelerating to redline almost instantly with perfect traction/acceleration before the next tap to change to 2nd gear.

In the wet you can do crazy things & you look like a driver with it all under control. Oh yeah, and fantastic brakes & engine. Great sound when pushed hard.

The shock horror is $140k. But the interior looks it & general drive is impressive. The cosy cabin makes the car a 2+2 rather than a four seater like the Monaro.

My daily driver is a VY2 SV8 M6 by comparison. If they were $100k cheaper they would sell alot more.


Stocky


My father in law has one of these...he got it with the upgraded bits and cost him 160k. Blows away my SS and does it in style. And launch control is absolutely awesome aint it? :cheers:

[Muzzak]

Dont get me wrong I love driving my clubby but I find it hard to believe your mate would find a 90k BM less impressive than a holden, unless he purely considers cheap performance as a priority.

Whats 90k for a BMW tho? Thats just a 325. I have driven one, and it certainly didn't impress me with performance. The interior is no grand place to be either. Now granted this, was a 25 minute demo drive, and mayby owing one you notice the difference in quality, who knows. First impression, Monaro is winner hands down.

Muz

[Vulture]

Once you start to compare build quality with nothing more than the naked eye, the BMW makes our cars look very cheap indeed. If you can't notice the difference then you are lucky as you'll end up saving yourself a lot of money. What would I rather, my SS or my father's M3? The SS is a great car, cheap for the performance. The M3 is a modern classic. Take both around a race track, live with them day to day and the M3 is the far more desirable/better car - as it should be for the money.

[NickS]

One of my mates 325i has lots of M options including suspension and it is very impresive but still did not out handle my old VX SS with shocks and springs.
Did the same person driving both to come to this conclusion ??? My Dad has a current model 530i with all the M Sport options, now it's not the quickest car on the road but it's a hell of a long way from being the slowest, it actually moves along really well. But handling ... a Holden wouldn't even come close, under any conditions. Quality ... not even in the same universe.

Having said that, unless it was an M3 / M5 / M6 ... I'd rather drive an HSV :driving:

[ADSXR8]

Whats 90k for a BMW tho? Thats just a 325. I have driven one, and it certainly didn't impress me with performance. The interior is no grand place to be either. Now granted this, was a 25 minute demo drive, and mayby owing one you notice the difference in quality, who knows. First impression, Monaro is winner hands down.

Muz

90k would get you in a 330 going by current pricing, if it was a 325, it would be heavily optioned.

[Swordie]

Top Gear thought the LS1 and LS2 HSV Monaro's were great value for money cars.

The BMW is nice piece of machinery and would be a blast to drive. Sorry to say and I apologies for offending any BMW owners there are many people who look at BM's on the road and think the drivers are wankers. It's a bit like Volvo drivers are perceived in a certain way.

[PepeLePew]

Leethl to be honest mate if you didnt have 52 written in your profile I'd have guessed you were much younger going by this post....

At the prices they pay overseas BM's make a lot more sense than they do here. Coz we pay silly prices doesnt make them any lesser of a car, just stuffs up the value equation.

As for the GT...that comment doesnt really seem to add up and I 'suspect' there is little truth in it.

[Muzzak]

Leethl to be honest mate if you didnt have 52 written in your profile I'd have guessed you were much younger going by this post....

At the prices they pay overseas BM's make a lot more sense than they do here. Coz we pay silly prices doesnt make them any lesser of a car, just stuffs up the value equation.

As for the GT...that comment doesnt really seem to add up and I 'suspect' there is little truth in it.

We live in Australia, so make comparisons where they count - A $AUD95k BMW has nothing on a Monaro. This includes performance and kit. In a nut shell that is what is being stated here. If you want a BMW optioned and performing in the same class as the Munro you will pay more than double the Monaro dollars. The Monaro is a beutifuly handling car too, and it's not just me saying this, even hard ass Euro critics agree. BMW will have the edge on build quality no doubt - but that is all.

Muz

[Dacious]

I've driven a stock 530i - a great doctors, local estate agent or accountants car. It has nothing on a Monaro in handling or brakes, plenty of body roll and understeer, not especially quick although it dropped two gears and revved hard given a boot. More noise than go.

The finish was ordinary, so were the seats and ergonomics. I can't say I thought it was anything special. I don't believe this car without oversteer ability would stay with my car on a windy road and it weighs about as much. In a straight line it wouldn't see which way a Monaro went.

[Vx_Adonis]

Top Gear thought the LS1 and LS2 HSV Monaro's were great value for money cars.

The BMW is nice piece of machinery and would be a blast to drive. Sorry to say and I apologies for offending any BMW owners there are many people who look at BM's on the road and think the drivers are wankers. It's a bit like Volvo drivers are perceived in a certain way.

Knowing someone that drives a $65k european car (mercedes c180), i would have to agree they are mostly wankers...
The guy who owns the Merc has had it for 5 years, only done 11000 k's in it, and only takes it out for 'special' events (weddings, family get togethers, etc) to show the world he has a 'prestige ' car! Whenever he goes out sat nights, its always a taxi job or he scums lifts of mates. this try-hard yuppy once told me how aussie cars are a piece of cheap junk - i replied that his car was only a taxi in germany, and only fools would pay $65k to get noticed in an underpowered taxi - that shut him up.
Ill stick to my LS1 thanks...

[Demon 8]

I still don't understand why we pay sooo much for a standard BMW? I thought the extra tax and tarriffs have been removed or reduced by now...

[JohnS]

Even a 52 year old can write crap................

General Motors would wish they sold as many units as BMW they would have maintained its production. Facts are not in favour of your point.

And, if a BMW driver wanted performance he'd probably buy a 6 series. Not a 3.

That's a bit harsh and an unfair comparsion when the BMW 3 series sold in far more markets and come in far more variations and has been on the market for 20 years +

BTW a 6 series costs twice as much as a 3 series and a 330 coupe 50% more than a monaro... $$$ must come into the equation somewhere.

[Dacious]

BMW 645 coupe = $203. Comes within a whisker of 0-100, top speed and even has the same wheel/tyre sizes as a Monaro. If you look up some roadtests they even get black marks for ergonomics, ride comfort and cramped rear seats - like no cupholers in a $200K car(!).

I also reckon the nightmare-catfish styling is dead ugly, but that's IMO. It isn't four times as good a car as a Monaro but it's nearly four times as much dough.

[Muzzak]

I've driven a stock 530i...

Here is a link to my oppinions of some of the cars I've driven....

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=46289

Since then I've also given a squirt in a Hemi powered Chryselr 300c, a SAAB Aero, and the new Lexus 250. I'll put up some stuff for them when I get a chance.

Muz

[NickS]

I've driven a stock 530i - a great doctors, local estate agent or accountants car. It has nothing on a Monaro in handling or brakes, plenty of body roll and understeer, not especially quick although it dropped two gears and revved hard given a boot. More noise than go.

The finish was ordinary, so were the seats and ergonomics. I can't say I thought it was anything special. I don't believe this car without oversteer ability would stay with my car on a windy road and it weighs about as much. In a straight line it wouldn't see which way a Monaro went.
:lol: My Dad's an accountant ... but then again, so am I :flip2:

With the M Sport aoptions you can say goodbye to body roll and understeer. As for brakes !!! Are you kidding, Holden brakes are just about the most shit house thing on the face of the planet. Even my HSV "Premium" brakes didn't last 7000kms. BMW brakes are so far ahead of Holden brakes it's rediculous. But for the price you would want them to be.

I agree it's not as quick as an LS1, but not everyone wants that, for the money I think it's an exceptional car. At least you can sit in it without your head touching the roof, the seats move faster than a snail, you can fit things in the boot and the paint is top quality.

Don't get me wrong, I would still prefer to drive a Holden (well, HSV actually), but to pretend that a Holden has it all over a 530i (a car that is fairly well recognised as one of the best sedans ever built) is going a little bit far I think.

[Red CV8 R]

Did the same person driving both to come to this conclusion ??? My Dad has a current model 530i with all the M Sport options, now it's not the quickest car on the road but it's a hell of a long way from being the slowest, it actually moves along really well. But handling ... a Holden wouldn't even come close, under any conditions. Quality ... not even in the same universe.

Having said that, unless it was an M3 / M5 / M6 ... I'd rather drive an HSV :driving:

This was based on a little run we had together which I wont elaborate on ;) I can tell you the BMW owner is a better driver then I am and the guy is a BMW nut, will not drive anything else and he was surprised. Although I think the extra grunt of the LS1 helped me in this run however there wasnt as much difference in a straight line as we both would have thought. He was quite pleased here.

Handling of a stock SS would not have matched the BMW as stock Holdens handle like crap, even HSVs are not much better but throw on a few decent suspension bits and it is a different story. I have never owned a Holden or HSV with stock suspension and cant see that changing.

Sorry if you do not agree with the result but that is what happened. Surprisingly he is selling his 325i for a 130i! (I think that is right) anyway he claims it is a really quick car and he is pleased as it has some deal with BMW for guaranteed buy back? Anyone know what this is?

[NickS]

stock Holdens handle like crap, even HSVs are not much better ...
Can't argue with your comparison !!

Can argue with the above though, I had Tom at Sam's Performance look all over my car, he said the only thing he would even contenplate changing about the suspension is some adjustable shocks ... but even that is only if I really want to change the settings. Not sure about every model, but suspension is one of the areas that HSVs are greatly improved (The Coupe 4 came stock with Eibach springs)

[NickS]

Sorry if you do not agree with the result but that is what happened. Surprisingly he is selling his 325i for a 130i! (I think that is right) anyway he claims it is a really quick car and he is pleased as it has some deal with BMW for guaranteed buy back? Anyone know what this is?
Sales pitch. Lease the car for X number of years, BMW guarantees to buy it back for a certain price. Don't think it's anything special, they aren't going to pay you any more than it's worth and they have clauses that let them reduce that price if excessive kms are travelled, car is damaged in any way etc.

The 130i is supposed to be a lot of fun, 3 litre straight six in a little hatch :driving:

[Muzzak]

.... but to pretend that a Holden has it all over a 530i (a car that is fairly well recognised as one of the best sedans ever built) is going a little bit far I think.

Well it's not Holden, it's the Monaro. Actually thinking of getting a 2/3yo 525i or 530i for the wife - they are basically half price by then. The 320 and 325 are a joke in the kit department. Even the seats are only semi electric, and there are many other short comings in the luxury features.

The best thing about BMW is it's slow depreciation rate in the BASE model cars. They keep their value extreamely well. Holden's depreciation is a joke throughout the range - their own doing of course with too many needsless model updates, and lack of loyalty to their customers by screwing them every which way possible (e.g. 33% production increase in CV8Z's). But this is Holdens marketing tactic, you get people in because you make cheap cars, so they'll always come - no need to appease or build loyalty once they got your dollars. People go to BMW for diffferent reasons.

Muz

[Dacious]

:lol: My Dad's an accountant ... but then again, so am I :flip2:

With the M Sport aoptions you can say goodbye to body roll and understeer. As for brakes !!! Are you kidding, Holden brakes are just about the most shit house thing on the face of the planet. Even my HSV "Premium" brakes didn't last 7000kms. BMW brakes are so far ahead of Holden brakes it's rediculous. But for the price you would want them to be.

I agree it's not as quick as an LS1, but not everyone wants that, for the money I think it's an exceptional car. At least you can sit in it without your head touching the roof, the seats move faster than a snail, you can fit things in the boot and the paint is top quality.

Don't get me wrong, I would still prefer to drive a Holden (well, HSV actually), but to pretend that a Holden has it all over a 530i (a car that is fairly well recognised as one of the best sedans ever built) is going a little bit far I think.

Maybe you should go drive a stocker - it's actually more of a librarians' car (and my wife is a librarian):p There ain't nothing special about the way they behave, including the stock brakes. A stock SV6 would live with one in the twisties.

Or are you saying your dad's 530 with M mods would take a HSV GTO? A 530 is a German Commodore (or more accurately Calais). If the spinning propeller weren't on it, it would just be another ordinary sedan of forgettable performance.

Head touching the roof? Ever been in a Bimmer coupe? Shizzit - they're even smaller inside than a Monaro! Then again, as Hugh Grant knows, you got more headroom in a BMW! :love2:

[PepeLePew]

We live in Australia, so make comparisons where they count - A $AUD95k BMW has nothing on a Monaro. This includes performance and kit. In a nut shell that is what is being stated here. If you want a BMW optioned and performing in the same class as the Munro you will pay more than double the Monaro dollars. The Monaro is a beutifuly handling car too, and it's not just me saying this, even hard ass Euro critics agree. BMW will have the edge on build quality no doubt - but that is all.

Muz

Thank you NickS.

Muz, we can angle comparisons any way we like to suit our views. So lets agree to disagree. We do agree on the Monaro being good value and lets leave it at that. All I do notice is Monaro owners are very passionate about their rides.

[NickS]

Maybe you should go drive a stocker - it's actually more of a librarians' car (and my wife is a librarian):p There ain't nothing special about the way they behave, including the stock brakes. A stock SV6 would live with one in the twisties.

Or are you saying your dad's 530 with M mods would take a HSV GTO? A 530 is a German Commodore (or more accurately Calais). If the spinning propeller weren't on it, it would just be another ordinary sedan of forgettable performance.

Head touching the roof? Ever been in a Bimmer coupe? Shizzit - they're even smaller inside than a Monaro! Then again, as Hugh Grant knows, you got more headroom in a BMW! :love2:
The stocker isn't a sports car, the Monaro is. I never said a 530 would take an HSV GTO and you never said you were comparing to an HSV GTO, you said "Holden Monaro". If it's another ordinary sedan of forgettable performance why does every journalist that drives one say it's one of the best cars ever made.

Ever been in a Coupe ??? Yes, lots. My Dads also has a 325Ci ... it has a shit load more head room than the Coupe 4 and a bigger boot by miles too. Back seat is about the same. Would it keep up with me anywhere ... not a chance, but he doesn't care because he is an old fart who is over driving fast :lol:

I am an HSV nut, I own two, I could easily afford a BMW but I don't want one. They are a better car in many ways (speed is pretty much always not one of them) but I just prefer HSVs. Don't really think there is any biased opinions on my part, I get that you don't like BMWs ... lets just leave it at that.

[Dacious]

Well, I sat in the back of my car yesterday cleaning leather and I can sit in all four seats without my head hitting the roof. Why did you compare the seating position of a coupe with a sedan? You raised it, I didn't. You also compared the handling of a 530 with M options to a standard Monaro - I didn't.

As a HSV GTO has similar sorts of upgrades to a 530 with the M options, isn't it fairer to compare? I simply said a stock 530 as I drove in 2003 is nothing special in the handling and stopping department - it isn't. It is designed to keep people of ordinary skills cosy on their daily rat-race commute. It is competent at that. I'd say a stock Monaro handles and steers better. It has so much more power it has to.

I don't hate BMWs. I wouldn't own any that I've been in, either. The M3 CSL I got a ride in was speccy - but unless you could afford four other cars in your garage, it was a narrow focus racetrack refugee and $180K. End of the day, a Clubsport R8 could live with it on the track, and be more practical on the road.

I think the iDrive is an abomination that is so distracting to use it must have caused some accidents by now. I also think, from the BMs I've been in, that they are not especially comfortable cars with so-so build and the non-M's don't do anything especialy well apart from send BM dealers kids to expensive private schools. But if you are in that income bracket I suppose that's what you buy.

Why do journos praise 530s? Because (and I know some bike journos) there is nothing godlike about them - they're ordinary people writing about cars for ordinary people. Jeremy Clarkson can bag out cars on his show, and the car maker might sulk, but eventually they'll give him another one.

Australia is too small a market and everyone too much in each other's pockets - when the car maker does a big launch and lays on a scenic drive, food, booze, wimmen, tracktime etc. I am not saying journos are dishonest intentionally, but they are human, and also driving brand new, distributor-prepared cars under tight reign.

They are hardly going to give them a real bagging. Not if they want to get asked to the next one.

[PepeLePew]

Please delete...this thread is getting silly/defensive and I nearly gave in to getting further involved :)

[wuked]

Irrelevant of power, holdens/hsv's/fords dont drive like Beamers, its as simple as that.

[Red CV8 R]

Can't argue with your comparison !!

Can argue with the above though, I had Tom at Sam's Performance look all over my car, he said the only thing he would even contenplate changing about the suspension is some adjustable shocks ... but even that is only if I really want to change the settings. Not sure about every model, but suspension is one of the areas that HSVs are greatly improved (The Coupe 4 came stock with Eibach springs)

If the Coupe 4 has Eibach springs then yes that is pretty good. Coupe 4 have the most developed suspension out of the HSV range. I was refering to the RWD HSV range. Last time I checked HSVs have crappy Monroe shocks! Does the Coupe 4 use the same shocks? The Suspension on the Coupe 4 is one of the reasons I really like them.

Holden really does lag behind in their suspension development and HSV can only work with what Holden gives them. Still I am impressed with how my Monaro handles with some basic work, and it was not a bad handling car to begin with unlike my SS which was CRAP when stock. All the stock HSVs I have driven have failed to impress BUT they still have nice ride quality for the the handling they did display. My car may be to firm for some people, definatley for a BMW buyer :)

[Red CV8 R]

Sales pitch. Lease the car for X number of years, BMW guarantees to buy it back for a certain price. Don't think it's anything special, they aren't going to pay you any more than it's worth and they have clauses that let them reduce that price if excessive kms are travelled, car is damaged in any way etc.

The 130i is supposed to be a lot of fun, 3 litre straight six in a little hatch :driving:

Hmmm well he is an accountant so I hope he wouldnt get sucked in by a sales pitch! He should have done the numbers properly working in that game! He did mention the kms, he hardly drives his current car at the moment because of kms. This would explain why. Thanks for the info.

Yeah that is it. He is always talking about this thing although he was nearly tempted by Mitsubishi of all things when his brother bought an EVO 9 recently but I think he cant live without a BMW. I think he was again getting some sort of M options on the 130i to. He mentioned something about an overseas magazines getting close to M3 times out of an M enhanced 130i?

Anyway I digress from the original topic. I considered a 3 series when I purchased my car as I think the 3 series coupes look so good! However I always wanted a Monaro since the motorshow and just loved the clean look of the Holden version so I had to have one! Just wish I could stop thinking about mods. I said I would not heavily mod this car and put my money into more responsible pursuits like an investment property or shares but I cant seem to help myself, it wont be long before I cant hold on and start emptying the wallet on modifications. :driving:

[NickS]

Please delete...this thread is getting silly/defensive and I nearly gave in to getting further involved :)
I'm with you ... this is ridiculous.

OK Dacious, Holdens are the best cars ever built, they have no faults, they are the fastest cars on the planet and every journalist that has ever written about a BMW favourably is wrong.

I'm out ... this is a waste of time.

[leethl]

Leethl to be honest mate if you didnt have 52 written in your profile I'd have guessed you were much younger going by this post....

At the prices they pay overseas BM's make a lot more sense than they do here. Coz we pay silly prices doesnt make them any lesser of a car, just stuffs up the value equation.

As for the GT...that comment doesnt really seem to add up and I 'suspect' there is little truth in it.

Peoplepew What I was getting at is value for money the cv8z stacked up
very well against the bmw (30k cheeper) having said that I still have a lot
of time for BMs. As for the falcon GT remark I have driven the boss 290kw
and I was very dissapointed. I have been in auto repairs all my adult life
I have built and own 2 of Australias top hot rods (all the books here and in
America will back that up) so I have some idea on motor vehicles.
Leethl

[Red CV8 R]

NickS and Pepe,

Dont stress about it, in the end its just a chat on an internet forum nothing to worry about. People can say my car is a piece of crap and a two door taxi but in the end who cares what they think, every one has an opinion. Doesnt make it right. It is all good and just car talk.

:cheers:

[Vulture]

I've driven a stock 530i - a great doctors, local estate agent or accountants car...

I don't have a 530i and wouldn't want one despite being of the medical persuasion. An M5 or M3, different story. My father always said that the lower end BMW and Mercs were for people who think they have 'made it'. The prices of the low end prestige cars make this true for Australia IMO.

[ADSXR8]

I'm with you ... this is ridiculous.

OK Dacious, Holdens are the best cars ever built, they have no faults, they are the fastest cars on the planet and every journalist that has ever written about a BMW favourably is wrong.

I'm out ... this is a waste of time.

I am with you, and I must admit yesterday I said to myself this is where this thread will end up, no suprises.

[who_me_?]

I am with you, and I must admit yesterday I said to myself this is where this thread will end up, no suprises.

Yeah, I had the same thoughts - someone just posting to stir up support or start some flame war - I have taken the bait I suppose...

My first new car was a VH SS (first ever car a HK Monaro) so I have gone full circle in 22 years but in the meantime I have owned 3 new BMW's amongst other stuff so i think my view may be more balanced than others...

In summary...

Holden - Cheap to own and run with good value performance and plenty of room.

BMW - Quality, Engineering, Handling, Technology, Safety and Customisation. You pay at least double for a BMW but you do get a few things extra...

A lot of other things have been noted already but even the cheapest BMW has stability control - N/A in a Monaro - ESP/DSC stops people having accidents - no argument. The Airbag count is also no comparision...

Get a BMW and select your interior trim color and finish as well as pick and choose your options - Want grey trim and wood or black trim and silver ? - just tick the boxes...

Everything in life is a compromise - this isn't any different...

There isn't comparision, they are different things. Live to accept it and people who slag off BMW's are worse than Windows users who badmouth those with Macs that have never used one !!!

:cheers:

[German Statesman]

I think i should weigh in, but its not going to be as clear cut as you would expect from a 740iL owner :D

In Europe, the 3 series competes with Astra, Golf, Peugeot 306 and other small cars in its class and to say it doesn't compete with a Monaro is dead right - the Monaro is exceptional value for money and nothing comes with a cooee of it.

To all of the Bimmerbashers :D go spend some time in one before you judge them to be wankers cars - I made that mistake, and I'm a born again BMW owner. If you are looking for a good allround tourer/commuter that will give a GT or an R8 a bit of stick from the lights, still return 15L/100km in town & 9L/100km on the highway on crap unleaded (this is a 2 tonne car, boys), have acres of space and appointments that cars are just starting to come out with as OPTIONS now, go buy yourself a '97 740iL with the 4.4 steptronic - bargain of the century. If you really want some fun, import the SWB from England, bolt on a supercharger, change the diff to a 3.64 out of an 850CSi, and leave WRXs crying in your tyre smoke while cutting low 11s at the drags.

Price aside, the Monaro's immediate rival is the M6 - no prizes for guessing how an LS1 would fare against a similar sized coupe but with a wild V10 in it. Same with Merc - the competitor is the CLK55 and its also an awesome car.

In England, the VXR Monaro is cheaper than the CLK55 and M6, and is excpetional value for money even over there.

I think its fair to say the Monaro is in a class of its own both here and overseas and its a great car. Lets leave it at that.

[Marco]

My own personal views (and bear in mind that I have not driven a BMW, so I won't comment on how well they drive):

The important thing to remember and consider is what the buyer actually wants out of their car, and how much they are prepared to pay for it. Most people here would look at $50k in the bank and think "SS or 320i, I'll take the SS thanks". That's because the same-price 320i can't come anywhere near the performance of an SS or similar, and pretty well everyone here is a car nut who wants more power, more performance, more handling, more everything.

But if you were the kind of person who wanted to get around comfortably and wasn't after max performance, then maybe the 320i would be more your kind of car.

If we're talking about the top end BMWs - and people here have been mentioning cars like the M3, M5, 6 series and so on - then we can't really put Holdens in the same ballpark. What you need to ask yourself is whether the improvements you'd get justify the extra money you'd pay. Personally, I think they don't - I think there's a practical limit to how fast you can actually go and how much handling you can exploit - but that's me, and I might even think differently if I had $200k to spend on a car.

How much of a BMW's pricetag is made up of a 'price premium' simply for having the BMW badge? My view is that BMWs and other cars of that type are basically about 20% more expensive than they should be because of the badge value. If a 320i was $40k instead of $50k, for a medium sized moderate performance RWD sedan, it would start to look like reasonable value, and if a mainstream car company built such a thing, that's what you'd expect to pay for one IMHO.

Oh, and I was very unimpressed with the interior of the 530i I looked at about a year ago. Lots of hard slabby plastic and no storage space. If I was spending big money on a car I'd basically want perfection, and I didn't think the 530i's interior came anywhere near it.

[Swordie]

Below is a comparison of a BMW and a Monaro based on Redbook values. I find it a bit difficult to mount an argument on economic grounds in the BMW's defence.

In terms of holding its value the BMW on the face of it is worse than the Monaro.
Also it has a bigger drop in dollar terms. Generally the bigger the price the bigger they fall. Also BMW doesn't have a good reputation for discounting and buyers need to add more options where as the Holden would most likely be discounted with few options needed as most things are standard.



2002 Holden V2 CV8 Auto

RRP $57,850
Trade in $28,900
Deprec $28,950
Deprec % 50%

2002 330CI Coupe 5sp 3.0i

RRP $96,800
Trade in $51,300
Deprec $45,500
Deprec % 47%

[Dacious]

I didn't say Holden were the pinnacle of automotive excellence and engineering. I didn't say BMW couldn't build terrific motorcars. But their ordinary cars are nothing special considering what you pay.

I think the V10 is engineering gone crazy - when a 300Kw LS2 A4 Senator luxury-sport car blows a 373Kw trackday special away in straightline performance you know BMW got something badly wrong. Every roadtest I've says the car will not achieve it's claimed performance. The old V8 M5 is probably quicker!

Stability control? If i can't turn it off, I don't want it. SMG - keep it if the new M5 is any indication. iDrive - c'mon, no-one is defending that POS are they?

Quality and engineering? I'm a not saying Holden is perfect - we all know of the LS1 oil issues plus clutch, diff and so on.

But BMW aren't some automotive god, either; with some well-documentated embarrassments that shouldn't happen or should have been fixed no questions asked - nickasil bore flaking problems for instance.

BMW at first told 5-series and M5 owners the same as Holden did LS1 owners - 2-3 litres of oil in 5,000km? Perfectly normal sir. Keep an eye on the level - there's a good chap. Ask the M3 owners whose cars threw rods, destroying the motor; and BMW tried to dismiss as driver abuse, what they think of BM build and engineering.

Increasingly makers load cars with heaps of innovations and allow owners to go through the bug-ironing, product development process.

To generalise and say no Holden could ever approach any BMW for driving, quality etc is therefore obviously wrong.

[who_me_?]

I didn't say Holden were the pinnacle of automotive excellence and engineering. I didn't say BMW couldn't build terrific motorcars. But their ordinary cars are nothing special considering what you pay.

I think the V10 is engineering gone crazy - when a 300Kw LS2 A4 Senator luxury-sport car blows a 373Kw trackday special away in straightline performance you know BMW got something badly wrong. Every roadtest I've says the car will not achieve it's claimed performance. The old V8 M5 is probably quicker!

Stability control? If i can't turn it off, I don't want it. SMG - keep it if the new M5 is any indication. iDrive - c'mon, no-one is defending that POS are they?

Quality and engineering? I'm a not saying Holden is perfect - we all know of the LS1 oil issues plus clutch, diff and so on.

But BMW aren't some automotive god, either; with some well-documentated embarrassments that shouldn't happen or should have been fixed no questions asked - nickasil bore flaking problems for instance.

BMW at first told 5-series and M5 owners the same as Holden did LS1 owners - 2-3 litres of oil in 5,000km? Perfectly normal sir. Keep an eye on the level - there's a good chap. Ask the M3 owners whose cars threw rods, destroying the motor; and BMW tried to dismiss as driver abuse, what they think of BM build and engineering.

Increasingly makers load cars with heaps of innovations and allow owners to go through the bug-ironing, product development process.

To generalise and say no Holden could ever approach any BMW for driving, quality etc is therefore obviously wrong.

I am also not saying they are perfect at all and many of your points are valid. Just remember that although you can turn off DSC/ESP on a BMW (even though many people shouldn't be allowed to) at least it is there ! You speak for less than 1% of the population who don't want to lose control.

I will generalise with one comment. All BMW's handle well... It is far more expensive but drive a 1 series and you would see that no DaewooHolden is ever going to hold a candle to that... :stick:

[HazzaHSV]

I will generalise with one comment. All BMW's handle well... It is far more expensive but drive a 1 series and you would see that no DaewooHolden is ever going to hold a candle to that... :stick:

True, as they are different cars designed for different things, but for the double+ the cost it should handle better. However, spend a couple of grand on springs/shocks/swaybars and no BMW under a couple of hundred thousand dollars will hold a candle to it.

PS - I haven't followed this whole thread so be easy on me!!

[xshore]

While up on holidays in newcastle I went to the local brew shop with my brother it was about 38 degrees celcius, there was a lady there the shop guy was helping, Her brand new BMW had broken down in car park again (I liked the look of it). She says its broken down 5 times and couldn't see why she had forked out $120,000 on a new car, she was pretty pissed off. So even BMW have build quality issues.

[Danv8]

While up on holidays in newcastle I went to the local brew shop with my brother it was about 38 degrees celcius, there was a lady there the shop guy was helping, Her brand new BMW had broken down in car park again (I liked the look of it). She says its broken down 5 times and couldn't see why she had forked out $120,000 on a new car, she was pretty pissed off. So even BMW have build quality issues.


The big 2 German Marquee's (MB and BMW) has lost the way on quality control in recent years.

They are too busy throwing all sorts of technology and crap into them instead of concentrating on their quality control. Its a shame as well because they use to be excellent in the build quality and now they are about average.

I am not saying that they are bad cars at all but I find MB and BMW to be extreamly over rated cars on the market.

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

As far as quality goes I agree that BMW and MB are very good and thats what you pay for. BUT I have seen some lemons and my fathers 320i is one of them. It has trim falling off it and he is very pedantic about looking after his cars but the interior has already given up on him, g/box and even the computer! All out of 94 model. My 83 Mazda 626 nothing died trim wise and never left me stranded without starting or moving. BMW the count is up to 5. Both cars were owned from brand new. Same as my 86 Supra. No falling off trim and only thing to give up in that car was the head gasket. Had that car for 4 years before the clubby.

Now what people I think are trying to say is for the bang for buck factor they know what they would choose. Seriously, who here is going to pick a 330i or a 325i with all the fruits for a GTS if they had $90,000 to spend on a car? Sure there are people that would buy a 330i or a 325i but I can almost be certain they are people not looking at performance and going out on a limb probably know nothing or arent interested about performance cars and cant see past the badges.

Going through my old Motor magazines I was flicking through the 25th (I think) anniversay Holden special and they (Motor) sent over a VTII GTS to battle against an E55 AMG and an M5 on the Nurenburg (spelling) ring. I assume these cars were either 99 or 2000 models. Now I'm pretty sure everybody knows that the price difference is horrendous between the GTS and the MB/BMW. What was found is that all the test drivers prefered the GTS in all aspects (not just oz tester but even the euro judges) and that the GTS was faster in a straight line and around the ring itself!

As a personal preference I'm not fussed on all this iDrive, and super dooper traction controls, launch controls, tip tronics and the like. I like to drive my cars and thats what the reviewers all agreed on. To me luxury is cruise, leather and climate. Thats all I need and thats what Holden can offer me with very good performance and for half the price if not even less.

[gmh308]

My login abuses me for not contributing, so I thought you all might be interested in my 2c worth on this thread.

As someone that has owned a stack of Holdens - LC & LJ XU-1's, LH, Gemini, HX, 5L VH SS, 5L VN SS, VR, VS, VY SV8, as well as a couple of BMW's - '99 328i, '04 M3, statistically I gotta say that the Holden's have been better quality in terms of quality defects - warrantee returns etc.

Looking at engineering quality, body, suspension, engines, general fit, the BMW is clearly a better engineered car. So it should be. They make about 10 times as many 3's each year. Holden could build cars that have suspensions as good as BMW, but they dont, probably because of $$'s limitations in our small market.

BMW suspension is simply in a class of its own, but you need to feel it and drive it to understand. I am talking 318 thru M. Its incredibly precise and very well damped. BMW engineers really do put a lot of effort into the suspension and the body design. Its not rocket science, but it costs. I have driven several Monaro's, and while they are better in the handling dynamics than a regular Commodore 8, when pushed they are still Commodores. Dont mistake me here - I love Monaros! Best looking Oz car ever made.

In all those Holdens I have never had to get a gearbox replaced (328), or multiple paint defects fixed through many dealer visits. In fact hardly any warrantee work on the Holdens that I can recall. Holden dealers dont leave me any more or less impressed than BMW dealers. And BMW dealers should leave their customers very impressed (knee pads on, teeth out) for the money that customers spend and the profits they & BMW make compared to Holden dealers.

The M3 is the most enjoyable car I have ever driven. The XU-1's (worked 308's) and the VH (Turbo 308) were just as fast - in a straight line, and brutal. Nothing hauls or turns though like an M3 being punted through mountain twisties in the 3500-7500 rev range, using the SMG right in its sweet spot. It gets great mileage too (off the power).

Why get an @%#^* expensive M3 when a Monaro is a great looking car at a great price, especially when 1/3 of the $$ goes to the Govt? Am sure that all on this board would agree that if you get a chance to own an M once your life, you take it. I did. It also fits the Mo Inlaw as well as the kids in the back (OK Lame excuse. Munro could fit 3 in the back with conversion, it should from the factory). I really hope I am not a tosser though.

Gotta give the General a break though, they build Commodores for a small market (land of Oz) so they cant engineer like BMW can. I think BMW sold a million 3's last year, did Holden even get to 90,000 Commodores?

That's 11 times as many cars to make your development returns on. I would bet that BMW's cost similar to make than an equivalent Commodore. They even use the same auto box these days. Holden achieves a lot of car for the money. BMW achieves a lot of money for the car. Go the Aussie!

As for resale, dont know that this is much better on BMW or Merc. They manage to create the perception that resale is higher, with very clear resale guidelines set internally that all dealers observe in their asking price. It helps BMW buyers justify the extra $$ they spend, thinking 10% a year in lieu of 20% depreciation. 10% of a 100k is still 20% of 50k. They still have to make their numbers and will do a deal to move a car. They are still cars after all and they are in business. It does not help Aussie car resale at present with the aggressive market from the last couple years.

As for the best quality, get a Toyota, uninspiring tinny boxes that dont handle, dont go, dont look (mostly) - IMHFO, but they are generally defect free in the warrantee period, go forever, and the dealers are OK by most accounts.

FWIFW! Cheers.

[Swordie]

I would expect a 3 Series to have a good base for handling due to its smaller size. The closest thing Holden may have to a 3 Series is the rumoured Torana. As BMW is more leading edge you expect a potential for more things to go wrong. I wouldn’t call Holden a leader in introducing the latest technologies that’s part of the reason they are cheaper. Due to trade barriers and GM having divisions in other countries I can’t see for a long time any great lift in production. Australian’s have specific tastes providing enough demand so GM can produce enough cars to make a profit. GM and BMW market to different segments so I can’t see we are comparing apples with apples but its interesting comparing them any way.

I notice there are mid 90’s M3’s below 40K with around 120,000kms. These would be nice cars.

[gmh308]

Saw this almost ancient thread. A mate of mine in the US drives an E46 Bimmer coupe every day. Loves his bimmer. One of his buddies he works with just bought a GTO and he went for a ride. Totally impressed. He is BMW biased, but commented the interior was as good or better than anything BMW had to offer. He is an Aussie, grew up in Adelaide, so he is familar with Holdens, and he said the quality was outstanding. Better seats than any GM product in the US. Car and Driver and Edmunds have also echoed this.

The GTO also has copped a lot of flack in the US on looks and that it should not wear a GTO badge. As an Aussie who sees the Monaro as one of the best, if not the best, looking car to ever pop out of any car factory in Oz, this hurts.

Apparently though, the GTO in the US has become a cult car. They are difficult to find and were a sell out in the end. Great to hear eh! What would the pessimists know!

Will be interesting once the Pontiac G8 starts to get out into road test land in the US. The only VE's I have driven are poverty pack rentals, but they are outstanding handlers. BMW's for Holden money!

Merry Xmas to all.

[mickeyVX350]

I repeatedly hear 'build quality' 'fit and finish' 'quality interior' guess what? Why do I have a holden, why have I had 10? why don't I have a Beema? Easy, I find the interior of a holden a nicer place to be, my Monaro is very nice indeed, the plastics seem 'softer' than the equivalent Beema which seems square, sterile and hard. All the BM's I looked at squeaked inside, didn't 'feel' like what I thought they should (esp for the money) The Monaro wraps around feels natural, integrates well (I have the first run 2002 CV8) and the overall flow of the whole vehicle just 'goes'

The Beema felt like an Astra, my mate has one and he gives me no end of crap about it being a 'wog car' and he always talks about 'the Bee Em' like a 3 series is a status symbol! His wife prefers my Monaro!

'Fit and Finish' where!!!! neither has fallen apart, so why are the german's better? I just changed a radiator in my mates BM and it was like assembling lego with all the plastic retainers and clips. To me this doesn't demonstrate that it is above my rubber and metal mounts in my rodeo!!!!

Anyway, I am ranting. I just think that a few of these terms people use to belittle the Oz product aren't justified and are used to make the uneducated seem like they are Jeremy Clarkson.

[Danv8]

if I bought home a BMW the mrs would get me hauled away because she would think I lost my marbles completely.

But I don't like the new BMW's I like the E39 series which was the best looking BMW out there.

[max350]

I have both a 2002 Monaro CV8 and a BMW 540. The BM is an older version being a 1994 model and a worth a lot less than the Monaro but as an every day driver I believe it is in a different class to the Monaro. It is much quieter than the monaro it is much smoother than the monaro. The build quality overall is much much better than the monaro. However in saying this the monaro has more grunt than the BM but doesnt have the handling or the breaking ability of the BM. But I would never get rid of the Monaro as when they were re-released it was all I wanted to buy and then when I did get one I just knew I would keep it along long time.

[PBoB]

I test drove my mates new 6cyl BMW 95k worth of car, drove ok bit under powered. I wouldnt pay that sort of money for it. I then gave him a drive of my CV8Z (manual) it just blue him away he was amazed how good and how better the Monaro felt overall. He left with his tail between his legs thinking what we all know how nice a car the Monaro realy is.

You've gotta remember too that BMW's in Germany and other European countries are just like falcons and commodores are here, they are their bog-stock, run-of-the-mill taxicabs over there. People from europe can't believe how much other countries like their standard "shitboxes" (for lack of a better word, not meant to offend), can you imagine going to singapore and seein a blinged up EF Falcon? You'd be blown away that people are interested in those old dungas.

Don't expect much out of a non-M series BMW as they are not as good as they are cracked up to be.

EDIT: Also, a Monaro is built for performance and speed, the beamer isn't.

[Danv8]

I have both a 2002 Monaro CV8 and a BMW 540. The BM is an older version being a 1994 model and a worth a lot less than the Monaro but as an every day driver I believe it is in a different class to the Monaro. It is much quieter than the monaro it is much smoother than the monaro. The build quality overall is much much better than the monaro. However in saying this the monaro has more grunt than the BM but doesnt have the handling or the breaking ability of the BM. But I would never get rid of the Monaro as when they were re-released it was all I wanted to buy and then when I did get one I just knew I would keep it along long time.

Although you do have the better BMW over the newer ones.
I think BMW lost it when they were to busy on whizzbang technology and forgot about building really high quality cars. I don't like the I-drive system I find it a load of bollocks really.

[v8e30]

Why is it you're all talking about new bmw's? They're trash compared to the oldies, all new cars are soft and girly.

I've compared my old 1986 325e e30 to a monaro, and the e30 was a bunch more fun to drive where it counts. It's all about feel, you dont get that in a new car :) I've known of many people who have sold their e46's m3's to buy an e30 m3.

I've opted for a mixture of both a new commodore and an old bmw though.. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Firestorm11/325e/IMGP1942.jpg

[LargeRice]

What's wrong with just liking the badge?
A lot of price comparisons going on but the badge is worth something.
Holden/Ford are not valued by Australian's as a 'prestige' brand. The European Audi/BMW/Merc's of the world are. That influences what people are prepared to pay. I think people are missing that point, you're comparing brands that are refined and 'prestigious' against a brand that is built to be angry, loud and generally menacing.

It just comes down to what you want to do. For me, when the wife and i go out somewhere nice we take her new Audi. When i want to go out and enjoy some blasting around i take my car.

It doesn't need to be black and white. The fact is, both cars perform 'their' specific purpose extremely well. So buy both :)

[Curtis-R]

Why is it you're all talking about new bmw's? They're trash compared to the oldies, all new cars are soft and girly.

I've compared my old 1986 325e e30 to a monaro, and the e30 was a bunch more fun to drive where it counts. It's all about feel, you dont get that in a new car :) I've known of many people who have sold their e46's m3's to buy an e30 m3.

I've opted for a mixture of both a new commodore and an old bmw though.. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Firestorm11/325e/IMGP1942.jpg

Now thats a cool project..! Imagine pulling up next a new M3 in that lol...

[xploit]

Parents both have 2005 330's BMW's

Now the old man used to have senators clubsports holdens etc...

Now i drive both on a very regular basis, and whilst a 325 is nice its not very quick, however, once you step into the 3.0 litre relm BMW take on a whole new level its like chalk and cheese.

The 330i will stay just behind a 04 Carrera.. and stay nose to nose with a VY Senator Signature untill 125kmh when the big 8 finally gets its legs up...

By no account is the 330i a slow car... power is instantly there it looooves to redline and GOD does it sound good doing it,

I have a VE SV6, but have driven many mates ss's clubsports on many occasions and thats how i know the comparo i mentioned before.

You just cant compare the two.. even the VE GTS in beema terms makes it look like a little 1 series...

They are chalk and cheese and in two totttttttttttttally different universes, beema will always shit over holden in their comftorbility*is that a word?*, style, handling, class etc.

But for the price they should...

Holdens a great car, but if i had 150k to sink into a M3 or a GTS with 50grand to play with, the M3 would win hands down..

Beautiful sexy car with plenty of power...

But if your talking a BMW 120, 318, 320, 325... Ew yuck ill take a holden anyday :), above that forget it BMW all the way.

Dave :)


BTW curtis.. new m3 does 0-100 in 4.5 seconds and revs out to 8.5000 rpm( as most of you would know thats a ****in shitload for a V8 for those of you who dont know the new M3 is a V8).. itd kill it :P but for 180k it would wanna.. nice car though... Gen in a old beema would be a weapon kudos to you :p

Dave

[v8e30]

Imagine pulling up next a new M3 in that lol...

It's more than just m3's that'll have to look out.. :)

[19OTU]

Some Of Those M Spec Bmw's Go Well!!!

[gmh308]

Why is it you're all talking about new bmw's? They're trash compared to the oldies, all new cars are soft and girly.

I've compared my old 1986 325e e30 to a monaro, and the e30 was a bunch more fun to drive where it counts. It's all about feel, you dont get that in a new car :) I've known of many people who have sold their e46's m3's to buy an e30 m3.

I've opted for a mixture of both a new commodore and an old bmw though.. :)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Firestorm11/325e/IMGP1942.jpg

Now there's a Bimmer with a real heart......

[the_sleepa]

Why is it you're all talking about new bmw's? They're trash compared to the oldies, all new cars are soft and girly.

I've compared my old 1986 325e e30 to a monaro, and the e30 was a bunch more fun to drive where it counts. It's all about feel, you dont get that in a new car :) I've known of many people who have sold their e46's m3's to buy an e30 m3.

I've opted for a mixture of both a new commodore and an old bmw though.. :)


Been waiting a while for pics of your beast. So c'mon, where are the rest? :)

[MNR-0]

Anyone driven the 335i TT?

[Evman]

Saw a new M6 today....I hate the boot, love the rest of it though...If I had a warm engine I would've tried to keep up :) Geez it seemed smooth as it accelerated though, can't top that in a manual!

It seemed smaller than a Monaro/Commodore however, anyone know which is the heavier/larger?

[payaya]

from what I recall it actually is lighter than the M5 and quicker.


Why is it you're all talking about new bmw's? They're trash compared to the oldies, all new cars are soft and girly.

I've compared my old 1986 325e e30 to a monaro, and the e30 was a bunch more fun to drive where it counts. It's all about feel, you dont get that in a new car :) I've known of many people who have sold their e46's m3's to buy an e30 m3.
.jpg[/IMG]


Obviously because its the current stuff? If BMW sold their vehicles with the refinement of the oldies, I'm sure they would be critisized for their efforts.

The newest M3 is a lot softer than the last model due to it being designed for american conditions, obviously massive market got to keep them happy.

[gmh308]

Anyone driven the 335i TT?

Very nice. It hauls. Got to push one kinda hard around eastern creek couple months back.

[cholo]

Knowing someone that drives a $65k european car (mercedes c180), i would have to agree they are mostly wankers...
The guy who owns the Merc has had it for 5 years, only done 11000 k's in it, and only takes it out for 'special' events (weddings, family get togethers, etc) to show the world he has a 'prestige ' car! Whenever he goes out sat nights, its always a taxi job or he scums lifts of mates. this try-hard yuppy once told me how aussie cars are a piece of cheap junk - i replied that his car was only a taxi in germany, and only fools would pay $65k to get noticed in an underpowered taxi - that shut him up.
Ill stick to my LS1 thanks...

Thats classic so true.

[JohnS]

Anyone driven the 335i TT?

Yes driven a stock and a Vishnu ProCede chipped 335 coupe in Singapore. Strong performer stock. USD1000 chip increases power from 306hp to 380hp and makes it very fast... 0-100km in 4.3 seconds apparently

[XR6T GEN]

I test drove my mates new 6cyl BMW 95k worth of car, drove ok bit under powered. I wouldnt pay that sort of money for it. I then gave him a drive of my CV8Z (manual) it just blue him away he was amazed how good and how better the Monaro felt overall. He left with his tail between his legs thinking
what we all know how nice a car the Monaro realy is. Also another good mate
who owns a auto work shop test drove a new Falcon GT, the owner is so piss--- off with it, my mate said a 6cyl Commodore would give it a run no dought, he couldnt get over how little proformance it had.
Leethl

this has to be the most laughable post in years. A monaro? basically a VT2 SS with two doors jammed shut and a leaky power steering pump is better than a $100k BMW. come on. Straight line squirt yes, everything else no. You could get a torana with a 308 thats good in a straight line but feels as rough as sandpaper on your bum. thats how the monaro would feel near the BMW

[nang3]

Very nice. It hauls. Got to push one kinda hard around eastern creek couple months back.

havent driven one but had one try to keep up a few months ago.. he was revving it and swerving all over the place to catch up to be next to me at the lights, we both took off and to my surprise I walked him pretty easily...

I love beemers and know they are a much better overall car than my phoon - this one was black with i'd guess 19's and dark tint and looked farken horn!!!!!!!! im 99% certain he was trying as well cause of the revving etc... im sure a bit of work and they would be a weapon

[throttlehappy]

this has to be the most laughable post in years. A monaro? basically a VT2 SS with two doors jammed shut and a leaky power steering pump is better than a $100k BMW. come on. Straight line squirt yes, everything else no. You could get a torana with a 308 thats good in a straight line but feels as rough as sandpaper on your bum. thats how the monaro would feel near the BMW

i dont even know why your commenting...have you driven either?
im tipping you havent

[XR6T GEN]

i dont even know why your commenting...have you driven either?
im tipping you havent

ive driven a monaro cv8-z, it was that slow you could seriously have a cup of coffee whilst driving. I drove a 297kw VZ clubby right after it which absolutely killed it.

Ive driven the M3 CSL at wakefield park on the track. I reckon im qualified to make a comment. the BMW your talking about is no M3 but still has the refinement.

[throttlehappy]

ive driven a monaro cv8-z, it was that slow you could seriously have a cup of coffee whilst driving. I drove a 297kw VZ clubby right after it which absolutely killed it.

Ive driven the M3 CSL at wakefield park on the track. I reckon im qualified to make a comment. the BMW your talking about is no M3 but still has the refinement.

cup of tea hey...:rofl:
this thread is so :limpy:

[Steakman]

My uncle has a 2006 330i. He let me have a go on the way to Rockingham. A wonderful piece of machinery.

I hate to say it but given the choice my monaro or the Bemmer I would have taken the Bemmer.

I haven't driven the M3 but if the 330 is anything to go by I think I would sell a testicle for one. Gotta love some of that euro trash.

[nang3]

My uncle has a 2006 330i. He let me have a go on the way to Rockingham. A wonderful piece of machinery.

I hate to say it but given the choice my monaro or the Bemmer I would have taken the Bemmer.

I haven't driven the M3 but if the 330 is anything to go by I think I would sell a testicle for one. Gotta love some of that euro trash.

mate the M3 is a beauty, i've never driven one but my neighbours son has an 05 M3 CS (I think its CS anyway, almost a CSL but minus the CF roof).. he took me for a decent lap in it and fark it is a beauty of a car, the build quality and overall refinement are light years ahead of any Holden or Ford that i've seen and i'd buy it off him at the right price anyday of the week

[v8e30]

And if you ask anyone who really knows their bmw's, they'll say the old e30 m3 is the best bmw to drive :)

[undr8d]

about 2 weeks after I bought my clubsport, my old man picked up his new 335i. When we went to pick it up he let me take it for a quick spin.

I dont know how they do it but they make the twin turbo straight 6 have absoloutly no lag. Its a dream to drive, handles great, sounds like a mini F1. When i was driving it i thought it felt twice as fast as the clubsport

I love my clubsport but after getting back in it to follow my old man home it felt like a bit of an excel

[CarlFST60L]

Ive driven the M3 CSL at wakefield park

I wish someone would hand me the keys to a $150K car

[mickeyVX350]

I don't care what one is better, I wanna keep thinking that my Monaro is the greatest, that way I am going to stay happy with what I have.

[CarlFST60L]

I don't care what one is better, I wanna keep thinking that my Monaro is the greatest, that way I am going to stay happy with what I have.

:lol: good call.

[Swordie]

A monaro? basically a VT2 SS with two doors jammed shut


There's hardly any panels the Monaro and Commodore share. The Monaro was a bit shorter and had a tighter shell which aided handling. Holden would probably of lost money on venture if the U.S didn’t buy any.

The Monaro showed the world (especially) GM how to develop a car quick on a tight budget and deliver it into reality. It showed once again how talented Australian’s are. It was done in around a third of the time of most major manufacturers with the assistance of computer aided design. That’s part of the reason Holden is best practice for developing rear wheel drive cars for GM globally.

The BMW six turbo from memory was voted best engine last year or the year before. I wonder how much they spent on developing their car. BMW is a world bench mark car.

At the end of the day the Monaro was excellent bang for buck. In 10 to 20 years time which will be more collectable, Monaro or BMW 335i? I would lay money on Monaro.

[MNR-0]

I own both. A BMW 335i TT and Monaro. I don't compare them because you can't - everything the Monaro is the BMW isn't, and vice versa. I love both - but my heart is with the Monaro.

The better car, however, is the BMW.

[disci]

Since the M3 has received a few mentions in this thread, here are some nice pics of a new one in New Zealand:

Just Pulled the Trigger - New e92 m3 pick it up next week!! - Page 2 - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com) (http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1187080&postcount=12)

(Warning: 12 large (1280 px) pics.)

Regards

D

[El Narros]

I would still choose my Monaro over an M3, no doubts the M3 is a better car but it just aint a V8 Monaro. The joy of turning the key each morning and hearing that roar.....

[M///POWER]

I would still choose my Monaro over an M3, no doubts the M3 is a better car but it just aint a V8 Monaro. The joy of turning the key each morning and hearing that roar.....

I would rather hear the burble of the new M3 then a Monaro :hide: The M-Sports 335 is also an impressive kit as well with the Porsche like sports suspension.


I own both. A BMW 335i TT and Monaro. I don't compare them because you can't - everything the Monaro is the BMW isn't, and vice versa. I love both - but my heart is with the Monaro.

The better car, however, is the BMW.

Are you on e90post by any chance? I think i have seen your user name before in the forum.

[El Narros]

I would rather hear the burble of the new M3 then a Monaro :hide: The M-Sports 335 is also an impressive kit as well with the Porsche like sports suspension.



Are you on e90post by any chance? I think i have seen your user name before in the forum.

I forgot the new M3 is an 8. Doesnt change my mind though.

[M///POWER]

HAHA gotta love bias

[nang3]

And if you ask anyone who really knows their bmw's, they'll say the old e30 m3 is the best bmw to drive :)

hehe what a coincidence, you have one too !!!!!! just jokes, guy over the road from my oldies place has some kinda M badged old beemer and it sounds sweet as.. im thinking it would be mid to late 80's, bright red and immaculate..

although it almost wasnt immaculate - my mum found it in the middle of our lawn one morning after the handbrake failed overnight hahaha

Today I would take a new V8 M3 over any car up to and within its price range except maybe an RSx audi but im not sure of their cost.... in 2009 i'd take the new GTR over the M3 though **droool**


I wish someone would hand me the keys to a $150K car

haha i think you'll find a CSL is a bit more than that !!

2004 BMW M3

E46 MY2004 CSL Coupe 2dr SMac 6sp 3.2i
Prices based on km 30,000 - 55,000
Trade in price guide* $110,200 - $118,400
National average price - private sale* $123,200 - $132,500
Price when new (RRP) $210,000 - yowsers!!

[v8e30]

hehe what a coincidence, you have one too !!!!!!

lol :D

Well i dont have a m3, just a....uhh...normal e30 :) And even when it had the old 6 in it, it was more fun to be in than any new car i've driven, even an 11 second monaro.

It's all about feel :)

[NickS]

lol :D

Well i dont have a m3, just a....uhh...normal e30 :) And even when it had the old 6 in it, it was more fun to be in than any new car i've driven, even an 11 second monaro.

It's all about feel :)

:lol:

I think you're driving the wrong cars then ... "it's all about feel" ... :confused:

That's some pretty deep thoughts about driving at 18 yo.


Today I would take a new V8 M3 over any car up to and within its price range except maybe an RSx audi but im not sure of their cost.... in 2009 i'd take the new GTR over the M3 though **droool**

RS4 is about the same as a normal M3 ... and I couldn't agree more.

:yup:

[v8e30]

That's some pretty deep thoughts about driving at 18 yo.

What does my age have to do with my knowledge of vehicle dynamics and driving ability? :)

[NickS]

What does my age have to do with my knowledge of vehicle dynamics and driving ability? :)

Have you never heard of experience ???

As I said ... if you think an E30 is more fun than any new car ... you're driving the wrong cars.

:D

[v8e30]

Have you never heard of experience ???

As I said ... if you think an E30 is more fun than any new car ... you're driving the wrong cars.

:D

Despite my age, i'm quite experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to cars :) (not trying to blow my own horn :rofl:) Most people refuse to believe i'm only 18 alot of the time :confused:

I just believe that there's nothing like driving an older car, new cars are too heavy and soft for my liking :) I like to be able to feel what each bit of the car is doing, the e30's are great like that :)

There was a little red e30 with a few suspension mods here a while ago that would do laps quicker than a v8 commodore around barbagallo, so dont underestimate the little boxy bmw :D

[CarlFST60L]

I just believe that there's nothing like driving an older car, new cars are too heavy and soft for my liking :) I like to be able to feel what each bit of the car is doing, the e30's are great like that :)


I was like you once, until i could actually afford new cars :stick:

[myss427]

Driven my old boss's Porche GT2 turbo and his business partners 2006 M3 and would not say they are not worlds in front of the old Monaro, maybe quality in some areas but the Porshe at $375,000 its not 6 times better and the BM at 3 times the price. Yes I liked them both, wish had the finances but still love the CV8.

[jamesd]

EDIT: Also, a Monaro is built for performance and speed, the beamer isn't.

Since when? I thought BMW was meant to be the 'Ultimate driving machine'!

[veewhy]

Since when? I thought BMW was meant to be the 'Ultimate driving machine'!

It is mate...

i dont know if anyone here has been in or driven the brand new M3... meaning 2008..

but earlier this year i got the pleasure in being in the back seat of one while it was being test driven hard by a mate of mine..

lets just say i was blown away.. meaning speechless... i dont think i have ever been speechless in my whole intire life but this car if you want to call it that.. just is amazing..

we went past a cricket match and my mate being really rude and all decided to plant the foot.. not one person didnt turn around to look... felt sorry for the batsman i think he got bowled out lol :P

now the price tag on one of these is way to much for an everyday joe.. 180k

but i guess you get what you pay for.. like hand stiched leather and a robotic arm that brings you the seat belt as it is a 2 door...
oh and not to mention BMW got one of the worlds best orchestras to fine tune the sound that the 4 litre V8 makes which produces 414 of horsepower stock..
oh and the roof is carbon fibre aswell..

but the quality of the german car is amazing.. oh and im a big fan of holden and all but if you put this thing next to a monaro or coupe or any holden i dont think it would stand a chance but then again if you put 180k into your car then it might have the upper hand...

i havnt managed to read all of this topic but i dont think you can compare 2 very different manufacturers.. one being Germany one of the biggest car manufacturers..


now people here probably dont like the things i have wrote in this topic...
but i just recently bought my first car and ofcourse it was a holden so dont get me wrong.. holden is my favourite vehicles whether its a astra or commodore or hsv... and i would never spend 180k on a car... if anything i'd spend it on a holden.. but some people would and i can see why.. but thats up to them to decide..

but thats only my oppinion...

[JohnS]

but thats only my oppinion...

A well balanced view mate... dont know what everyone is getting their knickers in a knot about. We are not being forced to buy holdens or BMWs.

[MNR-0]

I would rather hear the burble of the new M3 then a Monaro :hide: The M-Sports 335 is also an impressive kit as well with the Porsche like sports suspension.



Are you on e90post by any chance? I think i have seen your user name before in the forum.
Yeah, good forum that. The technology the these Germans put out is light years advanced beyond the LS1. Some stuff straight out of F1 racing too...

I was surprised to find this about the 335:

200bar fuel pressure (2800psi, Holdens sit at 4bar 58psi)
Knock sensors are resistance meters for spark plug gap (ionisation technology)

[Swordie]

I wonder if the extra price of the M3 is justified over the 335? The 335 sounds like an impressive machine.

[xploit]

The thing is also that ive experienced in my line of work.

Its the guy or mainly blonde woman who thinks they are tops, snobs everyone off look at ME i have a beema or a merc.. and they buy the 50,000 dollar 318 and take the badges off it.....

You have the guy who walks into BMW or merc and goes hm i like that, pays 200k or so for a M6 and will drive it to the footy with a singlet and thongs on and not give a flying %*@% --- nothing worries them and its only a car, generally really nice not stuck up people.

Funny to what stereotypes are percieved as and what they actually turn out to be in real life.

And when it comes to beemas, i want a 135...

335i twin turbo engine on a 1 Series platform with a chip upgrade :p and RWD

Cheers,

Dave

[VIPER6]

Monaros still look a whole lot classier. If I had the choice, a blue Audi RS4 for me, they pack a nice punch but cost a couple of new HSV VE models.

[gmh308]

Yes driven a stock and a Vishnu ProCede chipped 335 coupe in Singapore. Strong performer stock. USD1000 chip increases power from 306hp to 380hp and makes it very fast... 0-100km in 4.3 seconds apparently

US$1000 for almost a 25% increase in power. That is...er...very good value. This chip should make the 135i a real weapon now that BMW have got it to handle.


Yeah, good forum that. The technology the these Germans put out is light years advanced beyond the LS1. Some stuff straight out of F1 racing too...

I was surprised to find this about the 335:

200bar fuel pressure (2800psi, Holdens sit at 4bar 58psi)
Knock sensors are resistance meters for spark plug gap (ionisation technology)

...light years and cubic dollars. The twin turbos on a 335i add $27,000 to the price (simplistically). Something like Tuna's twin turbo VE Commodore setup probably handles as well and hauls like nothing anyone's ever "felt". Warp drive and great value.

Direct injection needs 200bar, port injection works well at 4bar. Once we get to Euro IV emissions, GM products will have direct as well.

You gotta admire though that BMW can and does invest in pushing the innovation curve, but their customers, at least in Oz where a BMW is substantially over priced, do pay for that innovation, not just in $$ up front, but also when it fails. Which the electronics do.

All this innovation though and they cant get the paint right! A BMW rep told me that 30% of all metallics have defects. Mine did. Silver. Bonnet. Boot lid. Rear bumper and a wheel. Other than that....

[MNR-0]

All this innovation though and they cant get the paint right! A BMW rep told me that 30% of all metallics have defects. Mine did. Silver. Bonnet. Boot lid. Rear bumper and a wheel. Other than that....
:werd:

Was talking to BMW service the other day and they said its hard to find paint shops that can actually match the factory orange peel. Big complaint from me is that such expensive car can have such a shitty paint job. Even Holden has a better paint job.