AWD in VE? No-one is talking about it

[SteveK]

Folks,
if I remember correctly, all the talk about HSV putting the AWD system into the Coupe 4 and then the release of the Adventra/Avalanche heralded a paradigm shift in the local Holden market to AWD across the range. Outside of these models, nothing has been mentioned in regards to what we can expect in AWD variants on the VE platform.

Is there still talk of this movement? Or has the technology been put on hold for now?

Hopefully Adventra sales haven't squandered Holdens thinking. Surely an AWD VE commodore would not make any difference in sales compared to a RWD VE commodore.

Thoughts.

Steve

[Rod]

Surely an AWD VE commodore would not make any difference in sales compared to a RWD VE commodore.

Since I dont do much offroad or rally style driving the AWD would not be that big a drawcard. Might even be a negative if the weight increased too much. I'm not sure how the kw at the wheels would compare, for the same engine, between AWD and RWD - arent there more transmission losses with AWD?
So theres probably a good chance I'd be ticking RWD even if AWD was available.

[mavss]

Holden should go the Subaru path and go AWD across the range.

Car companies are spending squillions on improving safety via electronic gadgets yet AWD is a tried and tested technology which in my mind is a must have.

I guess it's a matter of Holden :

- overcoming the weight penalty
- get it into the cars without those stupid wheel arch add-ons and
- keeping the costs down

An AWD 6-litre SS would be damn sweet.

[BadMac]

Holden should go the Subaru path and go AWD across the range.

An AWD 6-litre SS would be damn sweet.

I'm with MavSS. I have had 3 Subarus due to their 4WD and am just agreeing terms for a new forester.

If I could get an AWD SS or clubbie i'd be a very happy man. As long as the weight/power loss penality wasn't too large. Maybe the SSX is the surprise in the model range for VE.

[IIV8II]

she's dead, kiddies

[jbernie]

Is there still talk of this movement? Or has the technology been put on hold for now?

My understanding going back to the early development of the Zeta platform was that it would be RWD & AWD capable. I don't recall having seen anything to say that this is not the case. However, I could see Holden not talking up the AWD capabilities just yet as priority #1 for them right now is to deliver a RWD VE Commodore sedan. They will then expand the range with the utes, the wagons is they continue, the AWD versions, the LWB luxobarges etc etc. I just can't see holden being able to provide so many variants right away. I would expect them to announce the AWD to follow around year later.



Hopefully Adventra sales haven't squandered Holdens thinking. Surely an AWD VE commodore would not make any difference in sales compared to a RWD VE commodore.

I would suggest that upon review of Adventra sales, the issue was with the overall product being bettered by the Territory than the AWD concept itself being a dud. As much as I don't like saying this, Ford came to the party with the right product at the right time. Holden had a very good product but it really wasn't what the market as a whole was looking for and the sales of lack there of shows that.

The C3X/Captiva is a much more desirable product for the market, the Adventra is a niche product. And right now a niche product won't make the money required to keep it in production.

[mavss]

Besides, think of the R&D $'s Holden pumped into the AWD system to get it to where it is now.

If they permanently shelve the technology at this early stage of it's life, they will have gotten very little return on their initial investment.

My guess is that they'll get the VE out the door in RWD format before considering AWD.

[nickh]

the VE platform has AWD designed for it and when it comes out you will be able to see that the suspension has all the requirements for it to be fitted as the car was to far designed to change when the decision came that they would drop awd from the current model .i think its currently dead however there is talk that it might be revisted in 2007 .

[NickS]

I hope they go ahead with the AWD in a sedan format, safety wise the benefits are huge.

Although ... if they don't build any more AWDs it will probably only help resale values for the Coupe 4, so I won't be too disappointed. Mind you, if they don't do any more I will probably never sell it.

[cwhast]

Besides, think of the R&D $'s Holden pumped into the AWD system to get it to where it is now.

If they permanently shelve the technology at this early stage of it's life, they will have gotten very little return on their initial investment.

My guess is that they'll get the VE out the door in RWD format before considering AWD.
They should really be building their own SUV, keep most of the profits in Australia. They might not have to sack those 1,400 workers after all.

[Swordie]

Holden should go the Subaru path and go AWD across the range.

Would the Adventra fit into this?

[Dacious]

A US GM Exec talking about Zeta post-Camaro releaze mentioned AWD was a future development, so it is not dead. The AWD Chrysler 300 is a signifcant seller in snow states, and the US makers have done a comprehensive con job on consumers for 20 years saying RWD bad, FWD good.

And about 3 in 4 Territories are RWD, not 4WD. Another case of dogwankers determining future automotive direction because of fashion. Most people buying them including the owners I've spoken to, buy them for their perceived hitting power/crashability, not off-road ability, another wannabe POS like the Prada, er, I mean Prado.

Most comparo tests give the serious off-road AWD crown to the Adventra in spades, as cente diff-locking will keep it going in mud or sand conditions which stop both the Terripotty and Playdo in their tracks.

[mavss]

Would the Adventra fit into this?
That's only 1 model. I'm talking the whole Commodore range; Executive, Acclaim, SV6, SV8, SS, Calais, Berlina, Crewman, Statesman, Caprice, in addition to the Adventra.

[Marco]

I'm with MavSS. I have had 3 Subarus due to their 4WD and am just agreeing terms for a new forester.


I've always thought the Subaru AWD thing was a triumph of marketing over necessity, in that with the exception of performance models, cars like the Impreza and Liberty don't really have the power to cause traction problems on a regular basis...

[BadMac]

I guess thats true if you live in the city, as for me, I am 3 hours from the snow and 45 mins from the beach. I also find it useful to have something which can go onto flat wet grass towing a trailer and not become hopelessly stuck (like my SS has done, quite amusing to tow the SS off totally flat wet grass using a 2.5l car).

Also sure does feel good when I have the family in the 5 star ANCAP car with the extra piece of mind given by 4WD just in case I strike standing water or black ice or long windy metal roads or decide to drive down to the beach rather than carry everything from the parking lot.

Just a further point, in NZ the Territory sells 55+% in AWD, which by the way turns them from a very good vehicle into a gutless whale (I know cause I had one!).

Back on topic, it would be good if I could combine the SS and the 4WD in the family car then I could get a 2 seater convertable sports car just for fun. Maybe I should look at the coupe4, power plus AWD plus sports, damn the family needing 4 doors.

[mavss]

I've always thought the Subaru AWD thing was a triumph of marketing over necessity, in that with the exception of performance models, cars like the Impreza and Liberty don't really have the power to cause traction problems on a regular basis...
Unless you live somewhere with plenty of snow & ice or after a heavy downpour or driving through an oil slick or unsealed country roads etc etc etc.

There are a miriad of situations where AWD could come in handy, all of which have nothing to do with the power of the vehicle in question.

[PaulST]

she's dead, kiddies
The American versions of this will definitely need AWD so you’d expect that we could see that on the Commodore although not for a few years. The Chrysler 300C and new Lincoln large car (and possibly the Crown Vic) will come with AWD so GM will have to provide the option as well.

[AndrewCowley]

I honestly think the average punter doesn't care about AWD vs. RWD. And with the dabbling that Holden has done with AWD it is funny how given they offer both AWD and RWD you get a chance to compare the weights and you see that AWD is adding 200kg which to people who actually do care about car specifications (a different crowd to the average punter I initially mentioned) makes them cringe. So I think it is a waste of time for Holden.

[Avalanche]

In my opinion i cant see with the power figures that are going up, that there is any other option. Once u start pushing 300kw + rear wheel drive starts to push the safety boundary a little for the average joe especially in wet conditions, trac control or not. My guess for the last run of HSV coupes is, sorry Nicks, a 7lt awd weapon. Just look how the coupe4 went when they tested all the performance cars at eastern creek. Not the quickest over the quarter, but very quick lap times. An awd SS would be a nice drawcard. An awd Maloo would be even better. They just need a little more torque.
As for drivetrain loss the Avalanche went 198.6 awkw on 270kw at the engine.

[Merlin]

Personally I much prefer RWD handling over AWD handling, sure its nice to have in the rain/snow but for the other 99% of the time it adds some serious weight and makes the handling quite dull and predictable....

In saying that though it would be nice as an option but would hate for it to be standard issue. Holdens/Fords are already big heavy cars, an added 200kg for AWD would sway me into a medium size jap/euro.

[Marco]

Unless you live somewhere with plenty of snow & ice or after a heavy downpour or driving through an oil slick or unsealed country roads etc etc etc.

There are a miriad of situations where AWD could come in handy, all of which have nothing to do with the power of the vehicle in question.

Not disagreeing with you on that one, there are some people who do have a use for AWD in their regular driving.

For most city-based Subaru drivers, though, all it seems to do is give them the overconfidence to do 120km/h on the freeway in pouring rain with bad visibility (I'm not exaggerating, I've seen plenty of examples of this) and hits them with a fuel consumption penalty.

I'm not saying AWD is useless, but for most people in AWD Subarus a 2WD version with traction control would more than cover their needs.

[mavss]

Until such time as AWD gets the green light, I'd like to see the Commodore range fitted with Electronic Stability Control (ESC).

There are organisations here in Australia lobbying the government to make ESC standard across all new cars in an effort to curb the road toll.

ESC is an active safety system which deects when a driver is about to lose contrtol of a vehicle and automatically intervenes by applying the brakes to each wheel to provide stability to help address the situation.

I've seen it in action on Fifth Gear where a Jaguar was driven at full tilt on snow and then jinxed left then right to simulate an avoiding something on the road. With ESP off, the Jag continued on it's original journey after the first jinx and ended up sideways into a snow bank. With ESC on, the car responded to both changes of direction and stayed pointing in the right direction.

If Holden can overcome the weight penalty of AWD, I still believe it will make it into the mainstream, but either way, I want to see ESP on all locally built cars as soon as possible.

[mavss]

Personally I much prefer RWD handling over AWD handling, sure its nice to have in the rain/snow but for the other 99% of the time it adds some serious weight and makes the handling quite dull and predictable....

In saying that though it would be nice as an option but would hate for it to be standard issue. Holdens/Fords are already big heavy cars, an added 200kg for AWD would sway me into a medium size jap/euro.
Agreed. The majority of us have grown up with RWD vehicles, which is why most manufacturers of AWD vehicles bias them towards the rear so that we get the feel of a RWD but with the advantages of an AWD.

[NickS]

My guess for the last run of HSV coupes is, sorry Nicks, a 7lt awd weapon.
It will be interesting to see ... but I doubt it. This 50 car limit LS7 is supposed to be a purpose built, limited edition track weapon. It will be a RWD manual ... not an AWD auto. I don't see why they would make the last of all Monaros an AWD, it's not what the Monaro was ...

That's what I reckon anyway.

[Swordie]

I thought GM own Subaru. If that's the case why would Holden make a model to compete against their own?

[FPV GTHO]

I dont know if its FHI or Subaru itself, but its only a minor sharehold that GM has, less than what Ford has over Mazda.

By the time VE's released, the AWD weight penalty would be alot closer to 100kg. Look at the Territory AWD and RWD, theres only 80 odd kg difference between their weight. If the VE's engineered to accept AWD then surely even the RWD models would be stiff enough for the extra stresses, meaning less additionial body bracing needed

[Marco]

GM sold its Subaru shareholding a month or two back.

[vysandman]

I dont know if its FHI or Subaru itself, but its only a minor sharehold that GM has, less than what Ford has over Mazda.



It's FHI which Subaru is a subsiduary of and I think G.M. owned about 20%.
Notice I said "owned". They just sold it recently to try and keep their head above water. Re: The Fiat purchase/sale, Delphi etc and many other poor business decisions.

[jbernie]

I guess one question none of us can really answer is, when Holden put AWD into the adventra etc, it was modifying a platform that was designed for RWD only.

With Zeta being a platform designed from step #1 with AWD capability being a requirement, does this allow for the 200kg weight disadvantage to be reduced to some extent as they arent having to move stuff around to make it work?

AWD can sucker people into over confidence, but then some people need no suckering as they already are. Weight is definately a concern, but let the advertisers at it and <cue sappy music> you are buying safety and peace of mind for your family </end sappy music>. Also car magazines will look at poor performance etc etc, you may find that for some the insurance savings could be good, especially in a fleet.

Definately Australia doesnt have the winter states like we do here in the USA, but AWD is a useful technology. Which if done right can be a competitive advantage.

Agree with the poster who said that as the performance increases AWD can become a safety factor.

[Blown 454 AWD]

:D Certainly not saying there is anything wrong with or would like to change anything said in this thread however, It would be interesting to take each of you around a tight race track and or, out on a wet skid pan for a couple of laps, then let all concerned carry on discussing the possibilities for the future with Holden AWD. Even at 2247 kg (4943 lb) it's nothing but impressive.

If I could only take the decision maker at Holden for a ride, I think we could change his mind. :yup:
:nos:

To enjoy it to this degree you need shit loads of power, just what a 427 AWD would do. (then we could put a Blower/Gen-T on it :yup:

I could never go back to 2WD, to be able to put this power onto the ground is allot of fun, and allot safer on the licence. You can easily control the wheel spin. (even though Sonny's little tweak with my tune has the fronts lighting up with any more that ½ throttle on anything other than in a straight line)

I think you would all feel the same way, with just 1 small play. :D

AWD on a VE platform, AWESOME is the first word that comes to mind. If VE doesn’t go AWD, then I think we may see a few Adventra’s around with 427 built cast iron blocks with Gent-1000 plus M6 AWD, now we’re talking.

[Evil LS1]

AWD on a VE platform, AWESOME is the first word that comes to mind. If VE doesn’t go AWD, then I think we may see a few Adventra’s around with 427 built cast iron blocks with Gent-1000 plus M6 AWD, now we’re talking.

Moronic would be the first thing that came to mind and then irresponsible. Roll up roll up for the worlds first 2tonne passenger vehicle. Don't be put put off by the weight sir, AWD will be of enormous benefit chucking laps of Maccas car parks or cruising our freeways. And fitted with the optional 150l tank, you still get the same distance on a tank as you did with your VZ. Imagine being able to pull 17s quarters again, just like you dad's kingswood. Now that's progress!

[chevypower]

its not the weight so much which would cause extra consumption - its usually more from driving 4 wheels! and i personally dont like the driving characteristics of AWD sports cars, i much prefer RWD - maybe they could try 80% RWD - but especiially in AUstralia, where we have hot sun most of the time, and ultra low speed limits, with even slower people driving in front of us, i dont think it's worth it.