MOTOR's Aust. PCOTY

[redss]

I received my copy of this months MOTOR magazine today, in which there was an Australian PCOTY. It pitted the FPV F6, Clubbie DTS, XR6T (Man and auto), SS, XR8, and GT against one another. I was a little surprised by the results - not so much that the F6 was on top:doh: , but rather that the two XR6Ts finished in second and third. My surprise came partly from the fact that they had both stopped (i.e. died) on one of the road sections, and had to have performance testing done a week later! Shouldn't this have eliminated them? I could have missed it, but MOTOR just seemed to brush over such a 'minor' detail (not so minor if it's your car, and your parked on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere!!!!:mad: ).

If anyone else who has read the article could explain it, that would be great. I just figured, that if the car leaves you stranded, its pretty much a case of putting it out of its misery :kill:

Cheers
Pete

[StevieD]

Who knows- Perhaps Ford made the most sizeable donation to the MOTOR mags annual ball.

Nothing like a few $$ to grease the wheels of business and swing a few favours.


Disclaimer: I have no evidence of this whatsoever

[Ch0jiN]

I have last years PCOTY right here, you remember, the one where the the tubocharged ford was booted for repeated mechanical failures and the 911 kicked ass. I'd be very interested to read why this time the fords got to stay in. pressure from the manufacturer perhaps?

[redss]

If the car has to complete part of the testing a week later due to mechanical failure, I would have thought that that means you should get the boot. No matter what sort of car it is. AND it was two of the same type of car!!!!!

[Phoon Hoon]

My understanding is that they give all cars 2 strikes then you're out. You may recall when the Typhoon was first launched with its clutch troubles, it died once, they got another and it died again. Then it was turfed.

My guess is that the other turbos only shat themselves once, so with a replacement (and no more hassles) they were allowed to continue.

This cuts both ways... some time ago in testing, a Clubsport shat itself when the power steering failed. An SS also had brake failure, but on the second attempt both were allowed to continue.

The whinges at the time on the Ford forums were mirrored by what I've read here.

Bottom line is, the rules are the same for all. You can't complain when it goes against you this time.


PS - Memo Ford: The Typhoon has an oil cooler. The XR6T needs one.

[Ghosn]

Congrats to the ford camp, hopefully Holden/HSV use this and pick up their game.

[redss]

My understanding is that they give all cars 2 strikes then you're out. You may recall when the Typhoon was first launched with its clutch troubles, it died once, they got another and it died again. Then it was turfed.

My guess is that the other turbos only shat themselves once, so with a replacement (and no more hassles) they were allowed to continue.

This cuts both ways... some time ago in testing, a Clubsport shat itself when the power steering failed. An SS also had brake failure, but on the second attempt both were allowed to continue.

The whinges at the time on the Ford forums were mirrored by what I've read here.

Bottom line is, the rules are the same for all. You can't complain when it goes against you this time.


PS - Memo Ford: The Typhoon has an oil cooler. The XR6T needs one.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't whinging, just asking a question. I actually stated that I felt it should be the same for all cars - regardless of make.

Having said that, MOTOR still managed to brush over the incident extremely quickly - with no comment regarding what actually happened to two XR6Ts on the one test. If it had been 2 Holdens dying in such a fashion, I would be just as curious (and a little concerned obviously).

[IIV8II]

VE... soon, fellers...

[redss]

Alright - my fault. :fewl: The answer was there - me not read too good me don't. XR6Ts stopped due to..... drumroll please... crap fuel. :doh: And here I was hoping that there was something inherantly wrong with the car (i.e. mass recalls, Blue Oval going belly up etc:stick: ). Instead its just a case of trying to pass off light beer as full strength, when the engine only runs on the good stuff;)

My apologies for my reading difficulties - your just lucky I didn't try and count something!

I'll go and sit in the corner now. :eek:

[pagey]

There is a very good chance I shall be swapping into a TFord soon..

Gotta give it to them.. It is a great car.. or ute in my opinion - if I can overcome the split cab and leaf springs.. i'm in.

Well done Ford.

[macca33]

Gotta give it to them.. It is a great car.. or ute in my opinion

To use part of Pagey's quote, absolutely, the BA/BF XRs and the FPV variants are ripper cars. The turbo is definitely the pick, as the V8 just doesn't seem to be as good a donk as you would expect from a quadcam. And it is clear that the turbo has a lot of modification potential just waiting to leap out.

I am still not completely satisfied that it can drive/handle as well as I think the Commodore does and I've driven a vast array of each to compare. The Ford is close, but just no cigar for me.

The choices are there and this competition between the locals can only be good for us, the customers.

Regards,

Macca

[Knight Phlier]

Well done to Blue Oval Camp, particularly the F6. It has broadened the horizons on Australian Performance Car Motoring.

[NickS]

Is it just me or is it a little depressing that the best Aussie muscle cars are now Turbo charged 6s ... in any case, well done to Ford, gives Holden something to aspire to with the VE.

As good as they are, I'd still rather have an eight and live with whatever it is that they (Motor) feels makes them inferior, or better yet, a Turbo 8 :dance:

[vysandman]

When you're a Holden/HSV fanatic you're always looking for something negative about the Fords in any articles. You know the tide is starting to turn when you start nit-picking to find faults and it's time to jump ship when you can't find any. PUT ON YOUR LIFE JACKETS AND MAN THE LIFE BOATS BOYS. If FPV did a Typhoon similar in style to an M3 with huge wheels, pumped guards and a paddle shift on the auto (and lose a few kg) they would have something to challenge anything HSV might release. I haven't read the article but surely one of the current crop of 6 "LE" models must have done well. What with all that extra power from the unique badging, coloured stripes and painted brake calipers, don't tell me someones finally developed a car to compete with the power of a Sting Red HSV. Looks like HSV will have to find a new fast colour or God forbid, ....enhance the engine.

[Phoon Hoon]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't whinging, just asking a question. I actually stated that I felt it should be the same for all cars - regardless of make.
Yeah, mate. I know it wasn't you. My comments were directed at the guy who suggested that the Fords got 1-2-3 because they paid off Motor Mag with donations.

[Venom XR]

Bring on the HSV twin-turbo VE.

[vysandman]

There is a very good chance I shall be swapping into a TFord soon..

- if I can overcome the split cab and leaf springs.. i'm in.

Well done Ford.

That's what's stopping me too. The Holden ute body looks better.

[Carby650]

All is not lost yet peoples and I don't think it is time to jump ship to the blue oval just yet. I still have faith. I think that even the Motor mag writers are hanging out for the VE too. Set the stop watch only 5 months to go. Or thereabouts. Maybe the mods can post a huge count down clock on the main page for us all !!

[Ghia351]

Did they "out" the fuel source....oh yeah well done to the phoon....."put's wishful thinking cap on" ...imagine an alloy block Boss or I6...now back to reality... and with the suggested weight gain by the VE and Orions weight cutting program then next series of both should be even closer again....On a more serious note, do we have to carry fuel testing equipment every time we fill up now...?

[double k]

i can see this thread going for a few pages.

the ba/bf xr6t are great cars. remember when the xr6t came out in 2002 it won every award under the sun including muscle car of the year and best sports car under $56,000.

the bf has extended the good qualities in the car and the f6 has put the finishing touches on it.

they deserve the award IMHO and holden has to lift their game. simple.

[Knight Phlier]

Yeah, mate. I know it wasn't you. My comments were directed at the guy who suggested that the Fords got 1-2-3 because they paid off Motor Mag with donations.

http://businessnetwork.smh.com.au/articles/2006/03/02/4071.html

Isn't MOTOR a part of carpoint/PBL?

[Danv8]

It must be just me but COTY or PCOTY means nothing to me.

But good on ya Ford but I would rather have a V8 beast under the bonnet than a turbo 6'.

;)

LS2 here I come


Eventually. :)

[Danv8]

Is it just me or is it a little depressing that the best Aussie muscle cars are now Turbo charged 6s ... in any case, well done to Ford, gives Holden something to aspire to with the VE.

As good as they are, I'd still rather have an eight and live with whatever it is that they (Motor) feels makes them inferior, or better yet, a Turbo 8 :dance:

Same here
:)

[clixanup]

http://businessnetwork.smh.com.au/articles/2006/03/02/4071.html

Isn't MOTOR a part of carpoint/PBL?
Well spotted. Motor is published by ACP Magazines. According to ther website:

ACP Magazines is the magazine arm of leading Australian media and entertainment company Publishing and Broadcasting Ltd.

[Goggles]

It must be just me but COTY or PCOTY means nothing to me.

aside from bragging rights when Holden do well, it is also meaningless for me too....

unfortunately the goalposts are going to change in a few months when the VE is released, and it is likely to make the BF F..d look second rate....then a new Fa...n is due in 2007 which will shift the goalposts again....

[clixanup]

then a new Fa...n is due in 2007 which will shift the goalposts again....
I might be wrong, but I believe its not due until 2008.

[Venom XR]

I might be wrong, but I believe its not due until 2008.

I think you're right.

[RED R8]

Im sure even wheels magazine can't contain there excitement tha Ford finally produced something in the past decade that rivals Holden .

F6,wrx, sylvia, its all the same to me ppssssst pheeeew . V8's for me I like the Man's car.

[Aus8]

You know you aint as one eyed as you thought you were in previous years when your neck snaps at FPV's driving by and you dont even care if a VZ HSV drives past. It seems so strange but this is the case with me now. Especially Yellow BF Phoons with the black 19's! Flavour of the month and look awesome! I believe these are 12 second cars edit only on the 6 speed Auto. 550nm stock is impressive.

Aus8

[Ghia351]

Well spotted. Motor is published by ACP Magazines. According to ther website:

ACP Magazines is the magazine arm of leading Australian media and entertainment company Publishing and Broadcasting Ltd.
With the marketing blitz that Holden will unleash when VE is released its actually a very clever move by Ford to hog the internet advertising space for a year. I'm actually surprised Ford has gone ahead and done it..it's something Toyota would normally do.

[Ghia351]

I was a little surprised by the results - not so much that the F6 was on top:doh: , but rather that the two XR6Ts finished in second and third.
as the newagents don't get the mag until tomorrow....and we know the podium finishers :stick: could you possibly list the remaining order as I'm actually wondering if the SS beat out it's bigger brother?

[JBB]

I haven't read the article, but I think we need to get this MASSIVE 550Nm into perspective. Comparing the F6 to the Clubbie you have 3.11 kg/nm for the Ford, compared to 3.15 kg/Nm to the HSV. Bugger all difference when the car weight is added into the equation.

Then you look at the power, 6.35 kg/kw for the F6, 5.7 kg/kw. Again not much in it. Both cars pretty much cancel out each others advantages, until you take them to the track (ones with corners.....or straights for that matter).

We went to Wakefield a couple of weeks ago with a couple of SS's, XR8's and and f6. Around that little track the Z series had it all over the F6, power down, braking (I have the AP sixpots however) and top speed. Pushed hard the F6 became untidy, and while the first lap may have been quick, the second, third and forth laps were blowing out. Add to that the fact six laps was max for him for fear of engine over heating.

I look at it like this, if you own a performance car you should take it to the track. That is where you find out which ones are go, and which ones are show, and while the F6 is a great car I will not be swapping keys thanks.

[hsvLS1255]

i can understand the F6 being better than a z clubbie, from what i am reading on all the different forums it is a rippers of a car, esp with the new auto...

but what was the deciding factor that made the xr6 turbo better than a clubsport, and not just any clubsport, it was the whiz bang DTS clubsport . was it handling, performance, price ???.

havent got mag so would be interested to see what made it place higher than the HSV/ FPV GT aswell

[ADSXR8]

We went to Wakefield a couple of weeks ago with a couple of SS's, XR8's and and f6. Around that little track the Z series had it all over the F6, power down, braking (I have the AP sixpots however) and top speed. Pushed hard the F6 became untidy, and while the first lap may have been quick, the second, third and forth laps were blowing out. Add to that the fact six laps was max for him for fear of engine over heating.


Perhaps MOTOR should have employed you to drive for them, and by the sounds of it, you would have extracted a different result.

[turbo6]

It is interesting to read the reponse to the magazines result and might I say, you guys seem very level headed about it - which is actually quite refreshing.

I do have an F6 (manual) with quite a few mods and at last count around 370RWKW's. It is hopeless at Willowbank (ran a 12.3@119mph) due to no traction whatsoever, but heaps of fun elsewhere - third gear roll-ons are impressive - two nice black marks thanks. And like a couple of you have said, they respond very well to mods and in the scheme of $$$, excellent value for money. My F6 owes me around $63k. Show me something brand new I can buy that will even come close to it and make me smile as much !!

[clixanup]

My F6 owes me around $63k. Show me something brand new I can buy that will even come close to it and make me smile as much !!
You can buy a 6 litre Clubsport for less than $50K these days.

[rednut99]

You can buy a 6 litre Clubsport for less than $50K these days.

I bet it can't smoke the rears in 3rd from 100kmh... actually thats probably due to the $600 tyres they put on each corner to hide its grip inadequacies. :moon:

[technic]

I bet it will with a 5k blower setup and will still be cheaper than a fraud. Oops I meant ford :stick:

[Capt.LS2]

You can buy a 6 litre Clubsport for less than $50K these days.

I don't think you will find many (if any) still around for that price:shiner:

[RobboXR6T]

I haven't seen too many cars in stock form do more than 3 or 4 hot laps around Wakefield without something starting to overheat whether it be brakes, power steering fluid, brake fluid or tyres. The standard brakes on my XR6T were shot after 4 hard laps. My brother has a current model Maloo and it faired pretty much the same as did the other stock Holdens and Fords. My mates Porsche on the other hand could've run all day.

Well done to you blokes for giving credit where it is due. Same goes to the Ford guys on the Ford forums giving the big thumbs up when Holden do well. Unfortunately there are knobs in both camps. I've owned both Holdens and Fords and to me, the badge means nothing. A good car deserves a rap !!

I still have a holding deposit on a GTO LE but I am serioulsy considering a Phoon in the near future. It is all good for the Australian motor industy.

[HazzaHSV]

SS or runout Clubby with a turbo kit would turn that smile into laughing hysteria and might even leave some change left over!! That's the great thing. No matter which camp you are in, there are big power options.

No doubt they have finally caught up with the F6 and it is a great car I am sure, just that I am, and always will be a V8 man, so would always take the turbo V8 option. Others wouldn't.


My F6 owes me around $63k. Show me something brand new I can buy that will even come close to it and make me smile as much !!

[HazzaHSV]

That's quite obvious since the aussie cars are designed as family cars with comfort and practicality while a porsche is designed as a weekend racer. I bet the HSV Clubsport DTS which is designed as a weekend racer would hot lap all day around wakefield too, and you could probably get 2 or more of them for the price of the porsche.

I did around 20 hot laps in a session there with my stock SV8 no problem, only mods being upgraded brakes and pads, and a 100 buck power steering cooler. So there is plenty of hope for us lower budget racers too!


I haven't seen too many cars in stock form do more than 3 or 4 hot laps around Wakefield without something starting to overheat whether it be brakes, power steering fluid, brake fluid or tyres. The standard brakes on my XR6T were shot after 4 hard laps. My brother has a current model Maloo and it faired pretty much the same as did the other stock Holdens and Fords. My mates Porsche on the other hand could've run all day.

[vysandman]

You know you aint as one eyed as you thought you were in previous years when your neck snaps at FPV's driving by and you dont even care if a VZ HSV drives past. It seems so strange but this is the case with me now. Especially Yellow BF Phoons with the black 19's! Flavour of the month and look awesome! I believe these are 12 second cars edit only on the 6 speed Auto. 550nm stock is impressive.

Aus8
I have to pick you up on an error you made in this post Aus8, it should read "especially Toxic BF Phoons with black 19's" otherwise everything else you said was spot on.

[redss]

as the newagents don't get the mag until tomorrow....and we know the podium finishers :stick: could you possibly list the remaining order as I'm actually wondering if the SS beat out it's bigger brother?

Sorry to those asking me about more results - only just back online.

For those who are interested, the final results were (please note no bias in my reporting of these results):

8th - Falcon GT:flip2:
7th - Falcon XR8:flip2:
6th - SS:p (please note ahead of the two Ford 8s)
5th - GTO Coupe
4th - DTS Clubbie
3rd - XR6T (auto) :doh:
2nd - XR6T (man):doh:
1st - F6Typhoon :doh: :doh: :doh: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:

DTS apparently lost out to the XR6Ts mainly based on road handling and other chassis/design function type issues (not speed) - too much like a race car:confused: (mmmmmm race car.... :drool: :drool: )

So I guess congrats to the Ford forced induction 6s (is there a smilie for 'bugger'?), and with great pleasure (and again unbiased opinion;) ), I announce the biggest loser to be Fords BOSS 290 :nopity: . And let us never speak of those Turbo 6s again...:lol:

Cheers
Pete

[Martin_D]

Not unusual to see a turbo anything win a comparo :hide:

[Phoon Hoon]

No doubt they have finally caught up with the F6 and it is a great car I am sure, just that I am, and always will be a V8 man
Mate, Ford haven't just "caught up" with the F6, they've surpassed the Clubsport. Don't get me wrong as I think that the Clubbie LS2 is an awesome engine... and producing times that the GT should use as a benchmark. But so is the Typhoon. And throw in a superior gearbox, chassis, suspension system and all-round driveability, and the Clubsport is getting belted in any independent comparison between the two... in this latest comparo, the Clubbie couldn't even beat the Typhoon's little brothers!

This may change with the release of the VE. But as I've said elsewhere, it will be a better car than the VZ, of that there's no doubt. Throw on another 200kg however, and I wonder if it will be a faster car.

[Ghosn]

It's a great era, both camps have bragging rights. Love holden or Love ford, we all win.

[Phoon Hoon]

It's a great era, both camps have bragging rights. Love holden or Love ford, we all win.

That's so true, man. Competition means they push each other, with the consumers the winners!

[Ghia351]

Sorry to those asking me about more results - only just back online.

cheers
Pete

Thanks for that.

[vzsster]

Im sure even wheels magazine can't contain there excitement tha Ford finally produced something in the past decade that rivals Holden .

F6,wrx, sylvia, its all the same to me ppssssst pheeeew . V8's for me I like the Man's car.


Words from a v8 driver who has never driven one by the sounds of it......

:lol:

[Carby650]

agree that I think that both Holden and HSV have been caught napping to an extent but they are also putting all energies into the VE. I think the big disappointment will be if the VE doesn't scub up to what everybody has been expecting.
cheers

[HazzaHSV]

I'll take your word for it but I am talking about the whole range not just one type of car. ie Frawd have caught up finally as a worthwhile comparison to Holden as performance cars. ie the F6 is leagues ahead of any Holden 6, but the 8 is still a long way behind. And like I said before I am a V8 man.


Mate, Ford haven't just "caught up" with the F6, they've surpassed the Clubsport.

[Redhot_57]

PUT ON YOUR LIFE JACKETS AND MAN THE LIFE BOATS BOYS.

If its all the same sandy, I'll stay on this Titanic..

Holden and Ford have been leapfrogging each other for years. Well, thats the impression you get if you read mainstream motor mags in any case. Who knows whether any money or otherwise changes hands, but it is uncanny how a particular brand is decided a hands down winner, only to be completely beaten a few issues later.. ;)

I recall a time when a std VY SS got times quicker than a BA GT, and yet
ive seen a few tests lately and Ford seems to have got their act together. Either that, or they have developed a secret BOSS EDIT... ha ha

Really, both are world class cars. Iv had the opportunity to give the BF XR8 and turbo a good thrash, and as much as it goes against the grain i'll admit they were both a nice drive.

At the end of the day, drive what makes you happy!!

[EfiJy]

Sorry to those asking me about more results - only just back online.

For those who are interested, the final results were (please note no bias in my reporting of these results):

8th - Falcon GT:flip2:
7th - Falcon XR8:flip2:
6th - SS:p (please note ahead of the two Ford 8s)
5th - GTO Coupe
4th - DTS Clubbie
3rd - XR6T (auto) :doh:
2nd - XR6T (man):doh:
1st - F6Typhoon :doh: :doh: :doh: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:

DTS apparently lost out to the XR6Ts mainly based on road handling and other chassis/design function type issues (not speed) - too much like a race car:confused: (mmmmmm race car.... :drool: :drool: )

So I guess congrats to the Ford forced induction 6s (is there a smilie for 'bugger'?), and with great pleasure (and again unbiased opinion;) ), I announce the biggest loser to be Fords BOSS 290 :nopity: . And let us never speak of those Turbo 6s again...:lol:

Cheers
Pete


how is it that the dts is a poorer handling car when its easily the quickest car around the circuit?

the best handling cars are usually quickest :weirdo:

if i had the choice bw xr6t and dts i will choose dts every time!

[Phoon Hoon]

how is it that the dts is a poorer handling car when its easily the quickest car around the circuit?

the best handling cars are usually quickest :weirdo:

if i had the choice bw xr6t and dts i will choose dts every time!

Superior tyres and HUGE brakes would account for the difference in lap times, perhaps not better handling.

Considering the DTS cost 32 grand more than a 6T, it'd wanna have something going for it.

[redss]

how is it that the dts is a poorer handling car when its easily the quickest car around the circuit?

the best handling cars are usually quickest :weirdo:

if i had the choice bw xr6t and dts i will choose dts every time!

I may have expressed that badly. I think they meant it was too race oriented, as in, suspension didn't handle crappy road surfaces etc the best - you know, like pretty much any road in NSW. I guess potholes tend to be fixed on a racetrack, but apparently nurtured on NSW public roads. Well that's the case out here west of the mountains anyway, and that's where at least part of the road testing was done.

In saying that, I would like to point out my prior point "mmmmmmm race car...:drool: :drool: :drool: "

Cheers

[Oztrack Tuning]

Until i see a F6T Ford do a sub12s pass and be able to cruise at 30MPG i wont be that impressed. :stick:

[SSASSC1]

YEP - I got my motor mag in the mail yesterday too. I didn't even bother to read the full mag, just went to the last page of the PCOYT test and saw the FPV Phoon come out on top. What can you say? Go the Phoon !!!

I then flicked to an article I can really relate to. It was called SELF ABUSERS :) It was written by some bloke called Martin Donnon :D

Basically it says you can flog the crap outta ya ride and motor's puter will decide when enough is enough and reduce power and torque to ease stress on the engine and drive train. Just wish I had one of those fitted to the little missus at times :doh:

[mavss]

I won't get my subscribed copy for another week or so - hence my reliance on this forum to remain up to speed :(

[X BC X]

crap....all this talk about the new motor mag and no mention of any ve spyshots.....i was hanging out for another fix aswel :bawl:

bc

[mavss]

crap....all this talk about the new motor mag and no mention of any ve spyshots.....i was hanging out for another fix aswel :bawl:

bc
Patience X BC X. Not long to go now.

[tuff304]

Sorry to those asking me about more results - only just back online.

For those who are interested, the final results were (please note no bias in my reporting of these results):

8th - Falcon GT:flip2:
7th - Falcon XR8:flip2:
6th - SS:p (please note ahead of the two Ford 8s)
5th - GTO Coupe
4th - DTS Clubbie
3rd - XR6T (auto) :doh:
2nd - XR6T (man):doh:
1st - F6Typhoon :doh: :doh: :doh: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:hmmm: :hmmm: :hmmm:

DTS apparently lost out to the XR6Ts mainly based on road handling and other chassis/design function type issues (not speed) - too much like a race car:confused: (mmmmmm race car.... :drool: :drool: )

So I guess congrats to the Ford forced induction 6s (is there a smilie for 'bugger'?), and with great pleasure (and again unbiased opinion;) ), I announce the biggest loser to be Fords BOSS 290 :nopity: . And let us never speak of those Turbo 6s again...:lol:

Cheers
Pete

In regards to the SS that was tested, was it the new 6.0?

[NickS]

In regards to the SS that was tested, was it the new 6.0?
Sure was ...

[tuff304]

Sure was ...

Thanks NickS :D

[Goggles]

Sure was ...

and how did the times compare with what they got previously for the 6.0L SS?

[team illucid]

My F6 owes me around $63k. Show me something brand new I can buy that will even come close to it and make me smile as much !!

For $20K you could get a decent bike ... for $63K I could show you an old car that would leave you wondering what day it was :)

It is all about perception, and some days you win a contest others you are an also-ran. I take no notice of magazine articles stipulating what happened when - there testing is somewhat - shall we say - questionable, no two tests are exactly the same.

The only thing that matters is buying what you feel is the best car for you and not trying to force your opinion onto someone else. Sure you can state your point of view, but it is just that. Anyone can scream until they are blue in the face about Turbo 6 this/that, but I prefer blown V8s and there is no way I will change.

Immersion is the key to anything. Get the feeling right and you're on a winner. Nice V8 burble, whineing SC for me is the right immersion factor so I am happy. But I dont care if someone else doesnt like it, because I am paying for it, not them.

[RED R8]

For $20K you could get a decent bike ... for $63K I could show you an old car that would leave you wondering what day it was :)

It is all about perception, and some days you win a contest others you are an also-ran. I take no notice of magazine articles stipulating what happened when - there testing is somewhat - shall we say - questionable, no two tests are exactly the same.

The only thing that matters is buying what you feel is the best car for you and not trying to force your opinion onto someone else. Sure you can state your point of view, but it is just that. Anyone can scream until they are blue in the face about Turbo 6 this/that, but I prefer blown V8s and there is no way I will change.

Immersion is the key to anything. Get the feeling right and you're on a winner. Nice V8 burble, whineing SC for me is the right immersion factor so I am happy. But I dont care if someone else doesnt like it, because I am paying for it, not them.
I hear ya team illucid .F6 =:limpy: Blown V8 or any V8=:evil: :headbang: .

[98Club]

Perhaps a standard Clubbie would have been more to their liking if the DTS was too hard core? Shame they didn't throw one into the mix.

[Red CV8 R]

The results dont suprise me. Holdens issues are not to do with the engines, the commodore chasis is just showing its age IMO. IF VE is not a heavy sucker then we should see some good times ahead for Holden. Still as it stands the Fords turbos are the pick as long as you arent a "V8 only mate" type of guy. Personaly if I was buying a 4 door aussie sedan at the moment, one of the turbo models would be in my driveway.

[russlee29]

The results dont suprise me. Holdens issues are not to do with the engines, the commodore chasis is just showing its age IMO. IF VE is not a heavy sucker then we should see some good times ahead for Holden. Still as it stands the Fords turbos are the pick as long as you arent a "V8 only mate" type of guy. Personaly if I was buying a 4 door aussie sedan at the moment, one of the turbo models would be in my driveway.

It would appear to me that from the results, chassis does not play a big roll, otherwise the V8 Fords would have figured better than they did. Is there a substantial difference btwn the V8 Falc's and T6 in chassis? I think the answer to this is not much.

I find the results somewhat strange, if chassis and handling carry more weight in judging than engine/driveline why are the V8 fords so poorly placed?

[Red CV8 R]

It would appear to me that from the results, chassis does not play a big roll, otherwise the V8 Fords would have figured better than they did. Is there a substantial difference btwn the V8 Falc's and T6 in chassis? I think the answer to this is not much.

I find the results somewhat strange, if chassis and handling carry more weight in judging than engine/driveline why are the V8 fords so poorly placed?

I think the V8 fords suffer with to much weight over the front wheels.

[F6Mauz]

Go the Phoon!:bravo:

[JEM]

It would appear to me that from the results, chassis does not play a big roll, otherwise the V8 Fords would have figured better than they did. Is there a substantial difference btwn the V8 Falc's and T6 in chassis? I think the answer to this is not much.

I find the results somewhat strange, if chassis and handling carry more weight in judging than engine/driveline why are the V8 fords so poorly placed?

Try tyres. When pushed hard on a track, tyres alone make a huge difference. More so than an extra 50Kw would in some cases.

Didn't a mag do exactly this is put Holden/HSV spec rubber on the Fords?? Anybody remember this? and teh results?

[double k]

i think cv8-r is right about the ford v8. the engine places a lot more weight in the front section of the car which affects overall balance. the 6t engine is not so heavy, so it is better balanced and this affects the way it drives, handles, corners etc.

for those that have not seen the actual engine in the v8 fords, it is a huge mother ****a with bits upon bits

[turbo6]

For $20K you could get a decent bike ... for $63K I could show you an old car that would leave you wondering what day it was :)

It is all about perception, and some days you win a contest others you are an also-ran. I take no notice of magazine articles stipulating what happened when - there testing is somewhat - shall we say - questionable, no two tests are exactly the same.

The only thing that matters is buying what you feel is the best car for you and not trying to force your opinion onto someone else. Sure you can state your point of view, but it is just that. Anyone can scream until they are blue in the face about Turbo 6 this/that, but I prefer blown V8s and there is no way I will change.

Immersion is the key to anything. Get the feeling right and you're on a winner. Nice V8 burble, whineing SC for me is the right immersion factor so I am happy. But I dont care if someone else doesnt like it, because I am paying for it, not them.


I prefer to spend my money on something that provides me with mucho entertainment and is comfortable. I have a sportsbike and I am fully aware of cars a lot cheaper that will be quicker down a quarter mile but read it in perspective. Load this "car" up with fuel, turn the aircon on (probably doesn't have any) and go for a drive through the mountains and see how it fairs. It ain't all about 400 meters.

[team illucid]

I am not talking about 400 metres ... didnt mention it once (have no interest in 1/4 any more).

[Phoon Hoon]

Perhaps a standard Clubbie would have been more to their liking if the DTS was too hard core? Shame they didn't throw one into the mix.
Would have been fighting for the scraps anyway - considering the Phoon gave the regular Clubby a pasting in the previous issue of Motor.

[HSVR8-6L]

I received my copy of this months MOTOR magazine today, in which there was an Australian PCOTY. It pitted the FPV F6, Clubbie DTS, XR6T (Man and auto), SS, XR8, and GT against one another. I was a little surprised by the results - not so much that the F6 was on top:doh: , but rather that the two XR6Ts finished in second and third. My surprise came partly from the fact that they had both stopped (i.e. died) on one of the road sections, and had to have performance testing done a week later! Shouldn't this have eliminated them? I could have missed it, but MOTOR just seemed to brush over such a 'minor' detail (not so minor if it's your car, and your parked on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere!!!!:mad: ).

If anyone else who has read the article could explain it, that would be great. I just figured, that if the car leaves you stranded, its pretty much a case of putting it out of its misery :kill:

Cheers
Pete

Every year cars break down. If cars were eliminated for breaking down you wouldn't see too many in the contest. Plus keep in mind these cars get one hell of a punishing.

[HSVR8-6L]

Who knows- Perhaps Ford made the most sizeable donation to the MOTOR mags annual ball.

Nothing like a few $$ to grease the wheels of business and swing a few favours.


Disclaimer: I have no evidence of this whatsoever

That's a really dumb comment.

[redss]

Every year cars break down. If cars were eliminated for breaking down you wouldn't see too many in the contest. Plus keep in mind these cars get one hell of a punishing.

I was assuming that was why it was called a test?????? The strong survive, the weak fall by the wayside - whatever make that might be. I thought the whole idea of a test is to push a car to its limits, and see which one faulters first.

Magazines judge an entire make of car (i.e. XR6T, SS, whatever) on the one example they have in front of them. They make assertions about engine performance, brakes, handling - everything - based on that one example of a car. Why is it then, that when any car cannot finish a test, or faulters in some way, they are allowed to be excused. If a car's brakes fail its nailed in evaluation, if its chassis flexes and twists its nailed, if its engine is off song its nailed. Yet, a car can die during the test - a replacement produced - and all is good. It just seems a little odd.

I really am not having a go at any make with this. Holdens have failed in the past too (as I am sure the Ford boys will be happy to point out;) ).

I guess I am saying that a single car is accepted and passed as a true representation of a make with all its oddities and its anomolies (both good and bad) in a range of performance areas - but not if it haults the car during the test.

I can certainly see why a car manufacturer (and a magazine's readers I assume) want another car to be bought in - but still, in some ways it seems to cheat the test. It's like saying halfway through a marathon a runner can be replaced cause he/she has twisted their ankle. As you said, the cars do cop a fair old hiding during the test - just like a marathon runner, maybe a fresh set of legs is a bit of an advantage;)

If none of this makes sense - please excuse me - I just finished a 12 hour day including 4 hours of driving a 4 cylinder camry on the open road. That's enough to make anyone go slightly crazy!

Cheers
Pete

[Ghosn]

I was assuming that was why it was called a test?????? The strong survive, the weak fall by the wayside - whatever make that might be. I thought the whole idea of a test is to push a car to its limits, and see which one faulters first.

Magazines judge an entire make of car (i.e. XR6T, SS, whatever) on the one example they have in front of them. They make assertions about engine performance, brakes, handling - everything - based on that one example of a car. Why is it then, that when any car cannot finish a test, or faulters in some way, they are allowed to be excused. If a car's brakes fail its nailed in evaluation, if its chassis flexes and twists its nailed, if its engine is off song its nailed. Yet, a car can die during the test - a replacement produced - and all is good. It just seems a little odd.

I really am not having a go at any make with this. Holdens have failed in the past too (as I am sure the Ford boys will be happy to point out;) ).

I guess I am saying that a single car is accepted and passed as a true representation of a make with all its oddities and its anomolies (both good and bad) in a range of performance areas - but not if it haults the car during the test.

I can certainly see why a car manufacturer (and a magazine's readers I assume) want another car to be bought in - but still, in some ways it seems to cheat the test. It's like saying halfway through a marathon a runner can be replaced cause he/she has twisted their ankle. As you said, the cars do cop a fair old hiding during the test - just like a marathon runner, maybe a fresh set of legs is a bit of an advantage;)

If none of this makes sense - please excuse me - I just finished a 12 hour day including 4 hours of driving a 4 cylinder camry on the open road. That's enough to make anyone go slightly crazy!

Cheers
Pete

It depends really. There are different kinds of tests, in this case I don't think the tests were about quality, moreso about performance and handling etc...

[EfiJy]

Every year cars break down. If cars were eliminated for breaking down you wouldn't see too many in the contest. Plus keep in mind these cars get one hell of a punishing.

both xr6ts broke. not one but both!

both broken due to 'bad fuel'. wtf??? why didnt the other cars fail?

dont xr6ts come with knock sensors? why should the xr6ts suffer engine damage from bad fuel. i'm lost on the reason?

never heard of engine damage as a result of bad fuel for any car. :o

[vyss2004]

I had a typhoon for 1 day 24 hours test drive BF 6 speed auto, it went the best better than any holden i have been in, also had a go with my mates 6L clubby r8, the typhoon destoryed him by bus lengths not car lengths.

I will be placing a order for a BF soon.

[NickS]

and how did the times compare with what they got previously for the 6.0L SS?
Goggles ... this may have already been answered but I "skimmed" and didn't see it. It was much slower, as always. It is funny how the first test seems to be a belter but then it never really gets replicated.

In March 2006 Motor pulled off 0 - 100 km/h in 5.59 and the 1/4 in 13.81 @ 168.66 km/h.

In April 2006 those times have dropped to; 0 - 100 in 6.35 and the 1/4 in 14.48 @ 160.6 km/h.

This is a pretty huge difference, if they had managed the times the got in March it would have been the quickest car in the test by a considerable margin. It's also interesting that in March they said ... our numbers were recorded on the bottom lane of Holden's Lang Lang high speed bowl so there's bound to have been some scrub in there so it may be quicker still on a proper strip. Different driver, different location, different temperature ... different car, who knows.

:cheers:

[NickS]

... also had a go with my mates 6L clubby r8, the typhoon destoryed him by bus lengths not car lengths.
Now that's just crap ... the difference between these cars is so small you would need a stop watch to pick it, we are talking 100'ths of a second !!!

[vysandman]

I had a typhoon for 1 day 24 hours test drive BF 6 speed auto, it went the best better than any holden i have been in, also had a go with my mates 6L clubby r8, the typhoon destoryed him by bus lengths not car lengths.

.


Sure mate.
I like the Typhoon, (read my previous posts) but if you want us to believe that statement you'll need an auto because you don't have a free hand to change gears with. What a load of Crap. I suppose the article in the magazine backs your statement up, does it ?

[Goggles]

In March 2006 Motor pulled off 0 - 100 km/h in 5.59 and the 1/4 in 13.81 @ 168.66 km/h.

In April 2006 those times have dropped to; 0 - 100 in 6.35 and the 1/4 in 14.48 @ 160.6 km/h.

thanks...the April times seem closer to what Wheels got in their most current issue....still seem marginally quicker than a 5.7L SS.

[2001 ITR]

Try tyres. When pushed hard on a track, tyres alone make a huge difference. More so than an extra 50Kw would in some cases.

Didn't a mag do exactly this is put Holden/HSV spec rubber on the Fords?? Anybody remember this? and teh results?

They do make a big difference one of the reasons the DTS is ahead (also look at the M3 CSL compared to the regular M3 most of the time can be bought back with the handling kit and good tyres, look at the STi’s tyres too).

My 5 year old 1.8 litre Honda Integra with Bridgestone RE55’s, stuffed shocks and springs, 102 throbbing axle-twisting KW at the wheels and without Warren Luff driving it has done 1:44.14 around there. Hopefully it will go better with an alignment kit and new springs & shocks (it has also done 1:43.7 on "slower" Bridgestone RE540S with a gun driver).

[ADSXR8]

I had a typhoon for 1 day 24 hours test drive BF 6 speed auto, it went the best better than any holden i have been in, also had a go with my mates 6L clubby r8, the typhoon destoryed him by bus lengths not car lengths.

I will be placing a order for a BF soon.

Dont worry buddy, I believe you.

[ADSXR8]

Now that's just crap ... the difference between these cars is so small you would need a stop watch to pick it, we are talking 100'ths of a second !!!

How correct you are, and apart from the lastest PCOTY, Ford is usually on the other side of those 100th of a second, it does not necessarily mean they would be side by side in a drag from 0-100km/h. However over a quarter, that is different as its measured in point to point, not speed.

Am I making sense??????

[Dacious]

So these differences - these 'pastings' and 'destroyings' of the Clubsport by the Typhoon. They could actually be just points decisions. Not the Ford actually beats the Clubsport by miles, just a bumper?

Funny - Wheels had two comparos recently. A4 SS vs A6 XR8. The Holden was delivered with 'a problem which stopped us defeating the traction control, which Holden fixed immediately after the car was returned'. Wheels said 'this is the first time an XR8 has leapt off the line ahead of an SS in testing'. The XR8 was quicker by a tenth or two.

Same issue - Clubsport A4 vs GT-P A6. Despite the 'firmest shift patterns in any Ford six speed' the Clubsport, by Wheels reckoning, annihilated the GT. The times? GT-P, 14.4 sec and 6.3 second for 400m and 0-100. For the Clubby, 'less than 14 seconds, and less than 6 seconds'. Why not give the Clubsport's real times, when the FPV was quoted to two decimals?

So I have trouble believing some of these results. When the LS2 came out, all the mags said 5 second 0-100, no problems. Low 13 second quarters - easy.

Now, all of a sudden, they can't get a 400hp with sticky tyres and low gearing car to go quicker than a 5 year old 340 hp version of the same thing?

When the Tremec came out in the BA Mk II all the mags said due to 'superior ratios' and 'shift quality' the Fords and FPVs would be all over the equivalent Holden/HSV models. Seems not to have happened.

Now we're hearing the new A6 F6 is aeons faster than the LS2. Oh, but it's only actually a hundreth or so. The F6 cracks 14 seconds. The Clubby can't. Did they forget where the traction control button is? Have the new ADRs slaughtered the performance so much?

It sounds like Oz journos have this article of faith that the Ford is so much newer and more sophisticated so it must be faster, so now they are framing it into the results. Or did they just grossly overhype the VZ Clubby, and it's really slower than a VX SS? Something is rotten in Denmark.

Maybe they're just so scared of losing Ford and falling off the gravy train they feel they have to positively influence the results?

[ADSXR8]

Now we're hearing the new A6 F6 is aeons faster than the LS2. Oh, but it's only actually a hundreth or so. The F6 cracks 14 seconds. The Clubby can't. Did they forget where the traction control button is? Have the new ADRs slaughtered the performance so much??

Very good point. I recently wrote on AFF my experiences driving the new BF F6 and GT, both in 6spd auto. Unfortunately I wrote off my BA Gt-P A4 a couple months ago, but fortunately took the opportunity to get into a BF. The 6spd auto BF GT felt yards slower than my A4 BA GT-P, yet the Typhoon blew me away (so I bought one). My conclusion was the new Euro 111 emission compliance. Power figures in both HSV and FPV have not changed, yet there are more restrictive noise/polution equipment on these cars.

Not out of coincidence, see the XR6T was the only Ford/Holden getting a power upgrade inc. Euro 111 compliance. Because Ford only have to screw the boost .5-.8psi to gain 5kw and 30nm. Typhoon remained the same, maybe because its King.



Maybe they're just so scared of losing Ford and falling off the gravy train they feel they have to positively influence the results?

Stupid comment, I don't think so................................

[Vulture]

Dacious, I suppose as long as the comparisons are done on the same day at the same time at the same place then they are meaningful. I get what you're saying, though. We all know how variable 0-100km/h and 400m times are.

[hsvLS1255]

So I have trouble believing some of these results. When the LS2 came out, all the mags said 5 second 0-100, no problems. Low 13 second quarters - easy.

Now, all of a sudden, they can't get a 400hp with sticky tyres and low gearing car to go quicker than a 5 year old 340 hp version of the same thing?



remember when the ls2 came out, motor tested the GTO and got 4.99 and 13.1 0-400.... what did they get this time low 14s.

i can understand the concecpt of different time/ diff track but it is like they are on another planet with varioutions in their times... although to the conspiricy theorists it may have been a little tickled over by HSV.

could it be something to do with their timing devices maybe ??? do they still use the correveit or whatever it is called, dont they use some GPS based system now ?

[RED R8]

So what seems to be an acurate time for a stock F6 auto bafoon over the quater mile.

[ADSXR8]

Dacious, I suppose as long as the comparisons are done on the same day at the same time at the same place then they are meaningful. I get what you're saying, though. We all know how variable 0-100km/h and 400m times are.

How true. I recently saw the EvoIX times of 5.02 and 13.1. The 0-100km was done with 1 change redlining 2nd as it does 102km/h, and the quarter at Oran Park where the last 100odd metres are downhill, Consistancy please...

[ADSXR8]

So what seems to be an acurate time for a stock F6 auto bafoon over the quater mile.

Last couple mags testing the F6 (Auto6) have done close to ten runs posting all 13.9 (13.95, 13.96, 13.97 etc...) Speed however from around varying at least 8km/h

[351 Mach1]

So what seems to be an acurate time for a stock F6 auto bafoon over the quater mile.

13.1 - 13.3

[ADSXR8]

13.1 - 13.3

Brand new BF F6's at the strip have getting these times, and also quite consistantly, but the mags are no where near that.

I just throw my arms up sometimes, as somebody mentioned the 4.99 13.1 by a LS2 GTO, apart from the one test, nobody else has gotten near that........

[351 Mach1]

Well you asked for accurate times.
The magazine times are a joke especially when it comes to Ford V8's...

[Gabe]

Guys! your being idiots. sounds like a peeing contest.
Of course there are differences in quarter mile times listed from time to time and place to place. EVEN with the same car.The problem is there are just so many variables.
On the day of PCOTY acceleration testing,these cars were experiencing " 30-35 degrees during testing". what do you think that does to air density and therefore engine power? Not good..
On top of this is another variable:the cars management systems.if you were to read Donnon's article near the end of the PCOTY issue that you have been discussing,both Holden and Ford have put sophisticated anti abuse programs into their cars computers that can limit torque and power of the engine . What do you think this does to quarter mile times? huh? it kills them, thats what. these MOTOR guys run multiple 0-400m times with these cars, often back to back.
Do you think MOTOR just rock up to willowbank and use the facilities machines? Nup, they have a "V-BOX" to measure acceleration times, this machine gives different quarter mile times then if you were to rock up at a dragstrip and go for a blast. The reasons why have been duly explained in previous MOTOR issues.
Other variables are things like tyres, track surface and angle( slope) etc.... Basically its only a guide of the cars performance. Helpful, yes. but still only a guide.

[nang3]

Kudos to the Holden fans who recognise that the F6 (and XR6T for that matter) is a fabulous car, becuase well they are indeed as good as everyone reckons..
the more one-eyed of you who refuse to believe the fords are such good cars have obviously never been in one, or have been in one thats been driven sedately or just went for the ride hoping to hate the car..

I came from a 350Z and was tossing up between a GT/GT-P or a VZ Clubby R8 for weeks, and it only took one drive in the Typhoon to make my decision and i have never regretted... I still love seeing and hearing HSV's etc around but the fact is that the latest blue oval offerings are superior cars

[RED R8]

Guys! your being idiots. sounds like a peeing contest.
Of course there are differences in quarter mile times listed from time to time and place to place. EVEN with the same car.The problem is there are just so many variables.
On the day of PCOTY acceleration testing,these cars were experiencing " 30-35 degrees during testing". what do you think that does to air density and therefore engine power? Not good..
On top of this is another variable:the cars management systems.if you were to read Donnon's article near the end of the PCOTY issue that you have been discussing,both Holden and Ford have put sophisticated anti abuse programs into their cars computers that can limit torque and power of the engine . What do you think this does to quarter mile times? huh? it kills them, thats what. these MOTOR guys run multiple 0-400m times with these cars, often back to back.
Do you think MOTOR just rock up to willowbank and use the facilities machines? Nup, they have a "V-BOX" to measure acceleration times, this machine gives different quarter mile times then if you were to rock up at a dragstrip and go for a blast. The reasons why have been duly explained in previous MOTOR issues.
Other variables are things like tyres, track surface and angle( slope) etc.... Basically its only a guide of the cars performance. Helpful, yes. but still only a guide.
All good and well gabe but what I wanted to know is this highly praised machine the so called lion tamer what will it run If you bought one drove it to the strip and put down a few passes we all know the magazines are all over the shop but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications.RaceTrack times mean stuff all to the average driver as we will never really exceed the capabilities of our cars on the street so what will the typhoon give me over a new Clubsport in real everyday terms.And what swayed you nang3 did the typhoon FEEL faster I mean it may feel like a slingshot but still only run mid to low 13's same as most new V8,s (XR8 not included) so is it just the FEEL of the phoon.

[Dacious]

See, that's what I mean. For 5 or 6 pages we've seen this stuff about how Ford turbo sixes supposedly blow LS2 Clubsports away. Beat by a a few huundredths or a tenth is not blow away. That's driver, or conditions. At $10K a pot it'd want to blow the Clubby away, well and truly. From my experience against stock XR6Ts I've seen a stock LS1 has no hassles with them, let alone a LS2.

What it appears to amount to, is Ford is less conservative than HSV about inducing temperature related knock-retard. So if we test them at 25 degrees, we may get a completely different result. Or if HSV were to change the Clubsport callibration which probably comes from GM and remove some of the KR, it may go harder in hot weather. Strategic error on HSV's part - no reason to raise the white flag yet.

I don't credit dragstrip performances, either. Nearly every car has had an edit tickle, or exhaust, tyre pressures dropped, or things like spares removed etc. Plus practiced drivers after burnouts on traction compound are simply better at it than even journos. But I do remember Wheels, Motor and others getting much better figures than 14 secs out of the Clubby in their normal testing - like Wheels this month. I haven't seen anyone in mag tests get well under 14 secs out of an F6, under any circumstance. Hell, someone's only got to fart in one and it's plastered all over these pages so if the Upper Bum**** West Gazette's auto column said they'd done a 13.2 we'd hear all about it.

I have no problems at all with it's performance - in fact for all the hype it should be much better than it is. And that's what I see here - hype.

Note to self: don't expect to cream Ford Turbos in high temps on stock tune.

[Gabe]

" All good and well gabe but what I wanted to know is this highly praised machine the so called lion tamer what will it run If you bought one drove it to the strip and put down a few passes we all know the magazines are all over the shop but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications".QUOTE dazz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, basically Dazza, no. the Typhoon wont run a 13.2. your safe! :burnout:
the Typhoon is a fat Lummox! it weighs 1805 kgs!

[RED R8]

" All good and well gabe but what I wanted to know is this highly praised machine the so called lion tamer what will it run If you bought one drove it to the strip and put down a few passes we all know the magazines are all over the shop but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications".QUOTE dazz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, basically Dazza, no. the Typhoon wont run a 13.2. your safe! :burnout:
the Typhoon is a fat Lummox! it weighs 1805 kgs!
Thanks Gabe I can put my wallet away again (for a while).

[mavss]

I'm more interested in how well the car rides and handles rather than what it can do down the strip.

If it puts a smile on my dial when I :

1) look at it
2) sit in it
3) drive it

then I'm a happy man.

The phoon deserves a look based on the stories I've heard.

[Red CV8 R]

Hehehe, this is all funny, two nights ago I went on a bit of a run with some modified Skyline GTRs, EVO 9s, S15 200sx and a 325i coupe. It really puts performance into perspective! You want to see fast try having a few straight line and twisties runs with these types of cars! :eek:

[The Warden]

remember when the ls2 came out, motor tested the GTO and got 4.99 and 13.1 0-400.... what did they get this time low 14s.

i can understand the concecpt of different time/ diff track but it is like they are on another planet with varioutions in their times... although to the conspiricy theorists it may have been a little tickled over by HSV.

could it be something to do with their timing devices maybe ??? do they still use the correveit or whatever it is called, dont they use some GPS based system now ?

They use a Racelogic Vbox GPS unit for the timing.

Picking up on your point about the quick times from the early LS2's. My car is an Oct '04 build number in the 60's. It was the local dealer demo. At a HSV closed road drag day last year I set the quickest time. My car is stock except for a Remus cat-back, running on 98 octane with M1 for oil. Now the 400 metres was measured out on the odo of my car so I'm not saying the track length was right, but it was the same for everyone. Typically the times were about 0.5-0.7 secs slower than the times set the previous year. I was the only car to get into the high 13's and that was with the TC on, but tyres down to 26 psi. The newer LS2's were typically 0.5 secs slower yet I was only 2 hundredth's slower than a modded Supra with a supposed 300rwkw, go figure....

Were am I going with this?

Some of the guys in the local HSV club reckon my engine is a ripper compared to thiers, they drove my car when it was the demo. So could it be that HSV clock the tune back a bit after the initital cars are built. You know, have a "good" tune on release to make an impact then go a bit "conservative" later on for warranty reasons? I've got no evidense of this, but maybe one of the tuners could comment.

Anyway, congrats to Ford and the 'Phoon, clearly it's top dog ATM..

*sigh* one day you're a rooster, next day you're a feather duster.....

Cheers
Gordie

[Gabe]

There is no going past the glorious wad of 500nm torque from the typhoon from 2000-5000 rpm. it makes for a very tractable engine. As i said to DAZZA it ways 1805kgs, but if it weighed the same as a commy, that would be an awesome machine!
:soap: Why do cars weigh so much nowdays?On all the Holden and Ford models, the more power more weight is added. how do they justify that. its silly.it only blunts performance. if either company wanted to deal a death blow to the other in the performance stakes and bragging rights, they should build a lighter version of their car. a short model run would do. Hell, they could ask more money for less!
Subaru did it with the Spec C, saving kilos here and there, it all adds up. the commodore cars that are being sent to Bahrain as race versions weigh about 200 kgs less! You dont of course need to go to that extreme of course. Riddle me this Batman: why does a SV8 weigh 1639kg while a clubsport weighs 1696kg? an SS is 1654.

[FocusRsCosworth]

This is a great thread, awesome replies and Holden Ford Fanatics everywhere so id like to give my 10c worth. :-)

The GT and the XR8 was the slowest of the lot, no s*** is it because they weighed more than any other car in the test am i correct?... i think so.. How much does that cast iron v8 block weigh over the 6.0 alloy engine does anyone know? I wouldnt be surprised that it weighs 70-100kg's more? the weight is on the front tyres because the block is heavy. If Ford had an alloy engine that weighed the same as the 6.0 litre block, gees id like to f*(^*^ see the results then. <--- btw rumours say thats coming in 2008.

Another thing is that i have seen a stock BF F6 run at Calder in High 12's yes there will be alot of varied times due to different conditions, some of you might not believe this, but it has happened .. phoons have been hitting high 12's to mid 13's. This car is amazing, i have driven one and i love it. But i love it not only because of its performance but because of its total package. Im sorry to say HSV have only focused on performance on their cars, and thats why FPV is outselling HSV. :yup:

The phoon deserves the rank that it got. Some of you should have a drive and then tells us what you think, and no its not a holden, but its a nice car to drive:) .

[EfiJy]

i dont go by the times at the drags as there are so many variables. i go by the times that the magazines set as its a level playing field.

i have not read about a typhoon going mid 13s yet but there have been many ls1/2s do that.

i dont know how typhoon is a quicker car than ls2 when it just manages to crack 14s when the ls2s have gone much quicker but lately gone much slower.

too much bs in this thread. i agree its a peeing contest.

[FocusRsCosworth]

[QUOTE=EfiJy]i dont go by the times at the drags as there are so many variables. i go by the times that the magazines set as its a level playing field.



Okay thats fine, then we have to be honest here and say the results that Motor got are true. So we will.

[vysandman]

Dont worry buddy, I believe you.

You would ! You were probably driving the clubby and couldn't handle the power.

[FocusRsCosworth]

You would ! You were probably driving the clubby and couldn't handle the power.

Yeah maybe it did have the power, but whats the point when you have power and the steering , suspension, and all the rest is not good enough. :cool:

[vysandman]

Yeah maybe it did have the power, but whats the point when you have power and the steering , suspension, and all the rest is not good enough. :cool:
..................Huh ?

[ADSXR8]

You would ! You were probably driving the clubby and couldn't handle the power.

No. Thats wasn't me mate.

[Angeldust]

umm, the phoon went quickest on the day as its forcfed and intercooled.
in the stated 35C heat, any NA engine will suffer heat stroke.. thats why the slower time


:)

[RobboXR6T]

I don't think I've ever heard so many people whinge and whine. I would bet that were the tables turned, and they will, there won't be too many people on this forum talking about 'what if this ...' and 'it's only because that ...' etc etc. And how often have I read .. ' Yeah .. but if it wasn't force fed ...' or 'but it aint a V8' or even 'wait till the VE arrives'. Fair dinkum blokes ... Move on. The Phoon is awesome.... You can't beat the sound of a V8 and the Clubby kicks arse. Choose your ride and be happy and have the balls to say to the other fella ... top car mate !! Good on ya !!

Unbelievable.

[Buf-Phoon]

Why compare your car with mods to a stocker ???. I could run you in my modded Phoon but whats the point?? your modded , I am modded. This is not a pissing contest FFS. BTW 13.2 with mods aint quick champ. Do you know how long a bus is .....lets go , dont't forget I am in a manual so you do have more than a chance. LOL All is good. Though I do take your point in that the Phoon power delivery is so linear, thus deceptive



All good and well gabe but what I wanted to know is this highly praised machine the so called lion tamer what will it run If you bought one drove it to the strip and put down a few passes we all know the magazines are all over the shop but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications.same as most new V8,s (XR8 not included) so is it just the FEEL of the phoon.

[Typhoon]

I own a BF A6 F6 and to say it is the best car I have driven would be an understatement.
I think it is funny to read about how people are using the testing temp to justify the slower HSV times. I think you will find that the Turbo's are much more handicapped by hot weather than a NA. Both the Wheels (40c) and the Motor (35c) test were in hot weather. The only reason the current HSV will even keep up with a F6 is using semi race rubber.

We have now seen several STOCK F6's run <13.3sec 1/4 at sanctioned race track. This is at tracks with 20+c ambient temp, so I cannot wait until winter to see a stock F6 get into the 12's.

For all the people also wondering what the F6 will do with just and edit, we have seen 270+rwkw from a small <$1500 edit and custom tune, if you add injectors you will see 300rwkw. This would be for less than $2500, you will then see low 12sec 1/4. And the best thing is you can take the wife and kids to the track, run a few 12's and then head home :D

It will be interesting to see the VE come out with its extra weight to see how it will perform on an even playing field. I bet we will see Holden/HSV come out with a turbo to match the Ford T6.
I guess we the consumers will be the winners

[SS_Fury]

Why compare your car with mods to a stocker ???. I could run you in my modded Phoon but whats the point?? your modded , I am modded. This is not a pissing contest FFS. BTW 13.2 with mods aint quick champ. Do you know how long a bus is .....lets go , dont't forget I am in a manual so you do have more than a chance. LOL All is good. Though I do take your point in that the Phoon power delivery is so linear, thus deceptive

i think he was comparing for price and what you get out of it, power wise....with this post your living up to your nicname though, challenging someone online, geez mate get a grip

for what its worth im a fan of the phoon and xr6t - reasonbly cheap to mod and extract some massive numbers from....downsides? no v8 rumble and they kinda all look the same, just have bodykits on them..but alas i guess you could argue the same for hsv...meh :flip2:

[RED R8]

Why compare your car with mods to a stocker ???. I could run you in my modded Phoon but whats the point?? your modded , I am modded. This is not a pissing contest FFS. BTW 13.2 with mods aint quick champ. Do you know how long a bus is .....lets go , dont't forget I am in a manual so you do have more than a chance. LOL All is good. Though I do take your point in that the Phoon power delivery is so linear, thus deceptive
Im not turning this into a pissing contest I am just curious to see what benchmark the buffoon has set so it runs mid 13's from the factory so do plenty of ls1's and ls2's ,on the track times are within a pooftenth brakes are average fuel economy poor and make break if driven hard on a hot day so what is so earth shattering.Yes this is an awsome car it must be it competes with our soon to be replaced outdated holdens well done ford.
PS:Yes I have spent time in a XR6t both as passenger and driver feels quick but cant keep up with mine .

[EfiJy]

as much as i prefer my fords even i can't accept that the turbos are all they could possibly be. the fact that the xr6ts broke down scares me and ive had some probs wiht my xr8. thats why my next purchase is going to be ve.

[NickS]

I don't think I've ever heard so many people whinge and whine. I would bet that were the tables turned, and they will, there won't be too many people on this forum talking about 'what if this ...' and 'it's only because that ...' etc etc. And how often have I read .. ' Yeah .. but if it wasn't force fed ...' or 'but it aint a V8' or even 'wait till the VE arrives'. Fair dinkum blokes ... Move on. The Phoon is awesome.... You can't beat the sound of a V8 and the Clubby kicks arse. Choose your ride and be happy and have the balls to say to the other fella ... top car mate !! Good on ya !!

Unbelievable.
Well said Robbo ... :cheers:

[Veeate]

I don't think I've ever heard so many people whinge and whine. I would bet that were the tables turned, and they will, there won't be too many people on this forum talking about 'what if this ...' and 'it's only because that ...' etc etc. And how often have I read .. ' Yeah .. but if it wasn't force fed ...' or 'but it aint a V8' or even 'wait till the VE arrives'. Fair dinkum blokes ... Move on. The Phoon is awesome.... You can't beat the sound of a V8 and the Clubby kicks arse. Choose your ride and be happy and have the balls to say to the other fella ... top car mate !! Good on ya !!

Unbelievable.

You said what i have wanted to say all along on this thread. I couldn't care less that someone else's car does 12's or beats mine or if only i had a twin turbo with 400+kw or that the VE may whip the F6. Most of us are just bloody lucky to be able to drive a decent car and enjoy it.


I am picking my 2006 VZ Clubbie up on March 21st and i couldn't care less whether everyone else on here is faster than mine. Noone will be happier than me on March 21st !....and hopefully March 22nd ! Can't wait to wave to all those Phoon drivers as they go blasting past me !!!

[redss]

And here I was thinking that this thread would simply fade into history within a few hours of being posted. If nothing else, it sparked a bit of debate and discussion. It's great to see the passion of some people.

I live next door to a die hard Ford man. We regularly poke fun at one another when the opportunity arrives :stick: - but at the end of the day, we still love to have a beer leaning over the side fence of a friday arvo (or a monday...tuesday...wednesday... etc :lol: ), and we still respect the craftmanship of each others prize possession. I reckon that's what it's all about. Cars, beer, and women that neither car is fast enough to catch:rolleyes: :lol:

Have a good one.

Pete

P.S. Go Holden;) :stick:

[Martin_D]

I will give you the low down on the 2 x XR6 Turbos that stopped during testing. First up even the bowser pumping the fuel into them locked up and stopped at the time, which was the first sign of warning....then being the only two cars that were filled at that service station, they were the only two that stopped...and restarted straight away about 15 minutes of sitting on the side of the road (ie when the fuel cooled down)

[BIG T]

Just read this whole post guys with obvious interest.

My brother had just told me that the F6 was the only car that posted 400m times under 14sec.

I find this hard to fathom, especially with how the LS2 was talked up when it was first released. I have a whole cupboard full old wheels and motor magazines (From 2002 onwards) at home, which show most of the LS2's posting anywhere between 13.5-13.8 for the quarter.

I also have about 4 magazines that show the old 300kw CB4 5.7 consistenly post times under 14 secs.

Anyway congrats to Ford, but I think the obvious main reason as to why the Fords have caught up to Holden in terms of straight line performance is because of the 6 speed auto. I hope Holden are using the same six speeder
as Ford!!

[RobboXR6T]

Feel the love. Nothing is more boof headed than brand bashing. If you drive a car and don't like it, well and good but when some neaderthal says "only six cylinders, wouldn't touch it" or "not a V8. It must be crap" then you just look like a total tool. I'd own any of the cars in the PCOTY test (except maybe the XR8 and the auto XR6T) at the drop of a hat and I have no issues whatsoever about having a Holden and Ford parked side by side in my driveway. It concerns me that some of the talk on these and Ford forums could lead to someone actually hurting themselves or worse trying to prove that their todger is bigger than the other blokes. Totally dumb !!

Good natured and good humoured bagging is great .. Bring it on in fact but when it gets nasty, then we've lost the plot.

[PepeLePew]

Feel the love. Nothing is more boof headed than brand bashing. If you drive a car and don't like it, well and good but when some neaderthal says "only six cylinders, wouldn't touch it" or "not a V8. It must be crap" then you just look like a total tool. I'd own any of the cars in the PCOTY test (except maybe the XR8 and the auto XR6T) at the drop of a hat and I have no issues whatsoever about having a Holden and Ford parked side by side in my driveway. It concerns me that some of the talk on these and Ford forums could lead to someone actually hurting themselves or worse trying to prove that their todger is bigger than the other blokes. Totally dumb !!

Good natured and good humoured bagging is great .. Bring it on in fact but when it gets nasty, then we've lost the plot.

If there was still a rep button I'd be using it. Well said sir.

It is unfortunate that, even tho 90% of threads/posts travel well here their is still an element of silliness and one-eyed crap that raises its occasional head.

God forbid a Ford driver has to post something sensible.

[RobboXR6T]

Hehehehehehe ... Bastid !!

And BTW .. Phantom is purple .. not black !!! :moon:

[Vulture]

umm, the phoon went quickest on the day as its forcfed and intercooled.
in the stated 35C heat, any NA engine will suffer heat stroke.. thats why the slower time
:)

Just on this technical point: I thought that this was true ie. modern turbo motors compensate for hot weather by stuffing more air in and then retarding the timing to prevent detonation? If this is true then the NA car WILL suffer more in the heat.

[clixanup]

And BTW .. Phantom is purple .. not black !!! :moon:
Only in comic books.... :p

[double k]

i just read this article and have no problem with the turbos winning it.

one thing did occur to me and that is that these clubbies and ss cars are the last in the vt based platform and are makning way to the ve.

i think that this also has made it easier for the journos and testers to choose the turbos as they are going to include the ve v8's in later issues.

i think that they have knocked the current line up out, to let the newer line up in, the next rounds of pcoty.

anyone else here agree?

my 2 c and by the way the better cars won. he he he.

[RED R8]

Feel the love. Nothing is more boof headed than brand bashing. If you drive a car and don't like it, well and good but when some neaderthal says "only six cylinders, wouldn't touch it" or "not a V8. It must be crap" then you just look like a total tool. I'd own any of the cars in the PCOTY test (except maybe the XR8 and the auto XR6T) at the drop of a hat and I have no issues whatsoever about having a Holden and Ford parked side by side in my driveway. It concerns me that some of the talk on these and Ford forums could lead to someone actually hurting themselves or worse trying to prove that their todger is bigger than the other blokes. Totally dumb !!

Good natured and good humoured bagging is great .. Bring it on in fact but when it gets nasty, then we've lost the plot.
After reading all the post's I think you will find it all has been in good fun and no harm done and some people will only drive V8's that's why Ford do have sale's off the XR8 and GT.hop off your soap box and have some fun.

[EfiJy]

I will give you the low down on the 2 x XR6 Turbos that stopped during testing. First up even the bowser pumping the fuel into them locked up and stopped at the time, which was the first sign of warning....then being the only two cars that were filled at that service station, they were the only two that stopped...and restarted straight away about 15 minutes of sitting on the side of the road (ie when the fuel cooled down)

so is that normal for all cars or just normal for the xr6ts? why doesnt the computer detect for bad fuel?

the reason given by ford was winter grade fuel according to the article.

[RobboXR6T]

hop off your soap box and have some fun.


There is always one FFS.

[nang3]

All good and well gabe but what I wanted to know is this highly praised machine the so called lion tamer what will it run If you bought one drove it to the strip and put down a few passes we all know the magazines are all over the shop but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications.RaceTrack times mean stuff all to the average driver as we will never really exceed the capabilities of our cars on the street so what will the typhoon give me over a new Clubsport in real everyday terms.And what swayed you nang3 did the typhoon FEEL faster I mean it may feel like a slingshot but still only run mid to low 13's same as most new V8,s (XR8 not included) so is it just the FEEL of the phoon.

hey buddy, what swayed me was the overall refinement, handling, smoothness and build quality of the phoon over the other 2.. 0-100 was harder to compare but the in gear acceleration of the phoon totally destroyed the other two and would have embarrassed the 350Z beyond a joke haha..
The only other cars ive had runs against are a VZ Maloo with exh/extractors, a SSZ and a 255 GTO coupe with mods, with the maloo we were neck and neck up to 180, i thought he would have killed me just from the sound of his beast.. the SSZ was neck and neck up to about 40 then i flew past him, and surprisingly the GTO was no contest whatsoever, slower than the SSZ !!

there are quite a few stock BF Phoons getting around 13.1-13.5 times down the quarter from what ive read on the ford forums, with timeslips to back them up.

[KPWISHN]

Neck and Neck to 180km/hr in Perth. Do you have somesort of numberplate cover or something. The Sting is insane in Perth. Speed cameras everywhere.

[EfiJy]

there are quite a few stock BF Phoons getting around 13.1-13.5 times down the quarter from what ive read on the ford forums, with timeslips to back them up.

here we go again. from what you read? that's not the level playing field that motor is. there are much faster ls1s than low 13.1s at the drags. how do you know the typhoons are stock as motor can't get anywhere near those times? you say from what you read, that's not good proof. why dont you believe what you read here?

i don't put too much credibility on times claimed by holden or ford owners at the drags.

[ADSXR8]

here we go again..................................


..there are much faster ls1s than low 13.1s at the drags.




You said it mate....................................


..and not stock

[ADSXR8]

i don't put too much credibility on times claimed by holden or ford owners at the drags.

I agree, although I have seem 2 Typhoon low 13's time slips. The cred comes down to mods, and do they exist in your car.

[VYII_R8]

I think part of the problem is that the magazines test during the heat of the day, and most of us who go down to the drags do so in the evening when it is considerably cooler!

For the record, I believe the XR6T and Typhoon are fantastic cars. My brother has an XR6T and i have a VY II R8 Clubbie.

I am running 240rwkws <-mods obviously :P, and he is running 240rwkws. (He has edit only) To say his car rips mine now is an understatement.

When both our cars were stock, he would have me in 1st and through most of 2nd, but then I would pull away with ease in 3rd and above. Now his car just makes mine look slow. I have driven his car many times, and as much as I hate to say it, it really does have the wood on my Clubby.

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE my Clubby to bits, its just that if I was to do it again, I would go a Phoon in a hearbeat. The massive spread of torque is what makes these bloody turbo Fords go as hard as they do! It's just something my Clubby could never pull off!! (Not without forced induction anyway :P)

I hope noone takes offence to my post! I'm just trying to give an unbiased opinion of the two cars based on my own personal experience.

Cheers all!

[nang3]

Neck and Neck to 180km/hr in Perth. Do you have somesort of numberplate cover or something. The Sting is insane in Perth. Speed cameras everywhere.

yeh a nice private road n stuff :thumbsup: .. defo not an everyday thing tho, fook taht !!

[nang3]

here we go again. from what you read? that's not the level playing field that motor is. there are much faster ls1s than low 13.1s at the drags. how do you know the typhoons are stock as motor can't get anywhere near those times? you say from what you read, that's not good proof. why dont you believe what you read here?

i don't put too much credibility on times claimed by holden or ford owners at the drags.

I was replying to Dazvyss question - "but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications". ..
Of course there are faster LS1's than 13.1, but are they stock??

I only find times credible when there are timeslips and witnesses to back them up and when the forum members are long term to the point where they wouldnt BS because it would affect their moderator status or whatever, i tend to believe them.. Same way you would believe half the people here when they say they ran whatever time etc

When have i said i dont believe what i read here?? i know LS1's and LS2's can be f'n fast and sound awesome and dont doubt a lot of the modded ones will slaughter a phoon/xr6t, but some of you guys need to give credit where its due.

[double k]

vy ii r8, it must be hard to say what you have said but qudos to you.

i said that this may go for a few pages early on but it has even surpassed my expectations.

i could read this all day as it is a very intesting thread.

[EfiJy]

I was replying to Dazvyss question - "but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications". ..
Of course there are faster LS1's than 13.1, but are they stock??



i have no doubt a typhoon does low 13s but you dont know if the owner is tongue in cheek when he says its stock. i dont think too many ls1s are stock either.

i reckon typhoon is the best muscle car for the money. but i havent seen any quick times from motor. however i have seen good times from the hsvs.

motors tuner edn compared an edited ss to a gt. the ss did a 12.7. the gt just cracked 14s. just as a matter of interest.

[NickS]

motors tuner edn compared an edited ss to a gt. the ss did a 12.7. the gt just cracked 14s. just as a matter of interest.
If your going to quote times you should make sure your at least accurate, just cracked 14's is a bit rough;

SS - 12.74 @ 176.5 km/h
GT - 13.41 @ 169.0 km/h

[EfiJy]

If your going to quote times you should make sure your at least accurate, just cracked 14's is a bit rough;

SS - 12.74 @ 176.5 km/h
GT - 13.41 @ 169.0 km/h


my wrong :shiner:

i was more amazed by the ss times i forgot the exact gt times. good time from the gt and good speed. when the typhoon came out it was slower than gt, now they are faster only because the gt has gone backwarsd. same with the holdens.

anyway can we be happy from both camps that we have great cars to choose from? :D its no good believing one set of numbers and not the other. this peeing contest does noone any good.

i like both makes. :yup:

[flappist]

400m time is the most important thing, everything else is unimportant.

The first time I ever took my old GT-P to Willowbank I was lined up against this piece of junk baja buggy veedub. The smile on my face disappeared when the light went green and this piece of junk did 12.01@145km/h (yes it was a slow MPH but it was flatout in top by 200m).
I spoke with the owner. The whole car cost him $5,000. It was hopeless on the road, ate fuel like a bulldozer, rattled, clunked, get wet when it rained (no roof) but went like a cut cat.

From that time I though there may be more to performance than 0-400m

The turbos have always produced lots of torque and power but until no have not been able to get it to the ground. As opposed to a NA engine a turbo hits hard at low revs and stays that way potentially causing stress to transmissions and drivelines.
The early models with the T5 and BTR boxes were torque limited to prevent breakages. This is why there was such an incredible difference between the standard and modded vehicles.
The BA2 F6 is fitted with a T56 and dual plate clutch. It has a quite high 1st gear and below 2000rpm a F6 makes a Hyundai look quick. It is a major trick to launch a manual F6 without either bogging it or lighting up the rear end.
It took me about 10 goes before I got below 14.5 but once I worked it out I got easy 13.8.
This is in a bog standard car with 20,000km old factory dunlop tyres at road pressure, almost a full tank of fuel and two suitcases in the boot. (I am not a jockey either).
I have driven several auto BF F6s, they would eat mine for brekky over the 400m but from a rolling start (60km/h) it would be fairly even.

VE is coming, so is Orion ...... We live in interesting times

P.S. Did anyone notice that the XR6T held higher corner speeds than the F6? FPV has not implemented DSC (yet).

[SS_Fury]

mmmm boost and forced induction..... :D

[nang3]

i have no doubt a typhoon does low 13s but you dont know if the owner is tongue in cheek when he says its stock. i dont think too many ls1s are stock either.

i reckon typhoon is the best muscle car for the money. but i havent seen any quick times from motor. however i have seen good times from the hsvs.

motors tuner edn compared an edited ss to a gt. the ss did a 12.7. the gt just cracked 14s. just as a matter of interest.

thats what i thought at 1st but since the latest 13.1-13.5 times have been stock 6sp auto phoons - everyone has been paying massive attention to these runs because they have been the 1st with the new slusher so everyones been wanting to see what they do stock off the floor... so it is possible that a couple of them maybe tickled - in which case they would be pulling better than low 13's anyway..

personally its manual all the way for me even at the sacrifice of some speed hehe..

[Oztrack Tuning]

Just recall a LS1 that did 13.4 at less than 50% throttle.
So i wouldnt be splitting hairs by comparing cars that are close and only in high 13s

There is a big difference between instant power and turbo power. I have a pretty quick TD04 Turbo'd Forester and its heaps of fun under 7s to 100kph - but it pisses me off everytime i need instant power and i need to wait. My LS1 is instantly screaming - i would have to wait to give F6T a chance - if i didnt it would be all over after the first few tenths of a second.

Im not the sort of driver to bother to push a car near its limits on corners or brake maximally over long distances.
Maybe if i was a F6T would be a good choice.

Steve
http://www.oztrack.com/clubsport/oztrack.htm

[Ghosn]

Just recall a LS1 that did 13.4 at less than 50% throttle.
So i wouldnt be splitting hairs by comparing cars that are close and only in high 13s

There is a big difference between instant power and turbo power. I have a pretty quick TD04 Turbo'd Forester and its heaps of fun under 7s to 100kph - but it pisses me off everytime i need instant power and i need to wait. My LS1 is instantly screaming - i would have to wait to give F6T a chance - if i didnt it would be all over after the first few tenths of a second.

Im not the sort of driver to bother to push a car near its limits on corners or brake maximally over long distances.
Maybe if i was a F6T would be a good choice.

Steve
http://www.oztrack.com/clubsport/oztrack.htm

I would have thought an F6 would have been in a different league to a forester, so I think it's fair to say that was a bad comparison.

[Oztrack Tuning]

6.6s to 100kph in an auto. What does an auto F6T do stock.
It should be quicker - but the principle is still the same.

[Martin_D]

My LS1 is instantly screaming - i would have to wait to give F6T a chance - if i didnt it would be all over after the first few tenths of a second. http://www.oztrack.com/clubsport/oztrack.htm

As a professional Tuner now Oztrack you should understand there is more to it than this. You are comparing your car, a one trick, ill handling quarter pony to a totally competent, emission legal, and driver friendly stocker (Typhoon). BA XR6 Turbos that enjoy the same level of track time and modification as your car (Geea is a good example) are enjoying 10.6 - 10.8 passes at 125 -127mph, which makes your efforts pale into insignificace in comparison. Just as your stock Calais or whatever it is would pale alongside a stock Typhoon.... :sleep:

NOTE: None of the above comparison is rocket science..... :lol:

[Ghosn]

6.6s to 100kph in an auto. What does an auto F6T do stock.
It should be quicker - but the principle is still the same.

Isnt a forester 4wd? And I thought the discussion was about 1/4 mile times not 0-100?

From personal experience, I would say the A6 F6 would beat an LS2 in most cases. I have edit and exhaust and I still get munched by CSV_LS1.

[HazzaHSV]

Already done that in my unopened SV8 around Wakefield. Left the S15 (modded), WRX, WRX STi and R32 GTR (modded) in my dust. Okay I had semi-comp tyres on but it certainly didn't put performance into perspective for me.

And mine was the cheapest of the lot.


Hehehe, this is all funny, two nights ago I went on a bit of a run with some modified Skyline GTRs, EVO 9s, S15 200sx and a 325i
coupe. It really puts performance into perspective! You want to see fast try having a few straight line and twisties runs with these types of cars! :eek:

[Oztrack Tuning]

OK Tuna agreed.

But the point was about instant power. Thats what a head cam stalled ls1 will have over a turbo and especially a six.

If i wanted a track car i would buy a RX7 and tweak its turbo.

Mine handles good enough for me - as i dont have the inclination to blast corners anymore - im past that stage.

Interested to have a GenT even next to my car at a steady 30kph and just stomp together. Its close to instant power and especially since you mentioned it with my tuning development i have had the chance to log and tweak the tune everyday for the last 2 months using EFIlive....the GenT would quickly catch up but thats my point - it would be behind and forcefully inducting my cars fumes.

Maybe i am wrong .....someone ought to go to next sundays private drag day and find out.

[Oztrack Tuning]

Foresters have the same motor as WRX and many are doing under 14s.
The WRX turbo is bigger but is a simple bolt on.

The XT Foresters are quicker again and people better not take these for granted in mild ls1s. Simple mods and they will be low13s machines. 2.5 Litre Boxer Motors in them.

[HazzaHSV]

As you know (cause you have built them) so are totally stock LS1's with a turbo kit and exhaust. I said it before and will say it again. I have no doubt the phoon is one of the biggest hitters straight from the factory floor and as such probably the best option for the non modders. BUT for us enthusiasts who mod, bolt a turbo kit up to a new SS or HSV and for the same money? you get a phoon killer!

I also bet the factory PWR equipped VE Clubsport will be the new king next year, and so the see saw will probably go until the end of time.


BA XR6 Turbos that enjoy the same level of track time and modification as your car are enjoying 10.6 - 10.8 passes at 125 -127mph

[Typhoon]

Oztrack, It seems you have never driven a F6/XR6T or you would not be talking about lag. They do not have any noticable lag. You are also comparing a boxter 4 2lt to a 6cyl 4lt turbo, there are NO similarities except they are both petrol turbo motors.
I suggest you walk out of the dark ages and have a test drive and then make a comment.

Hazza, If you spent the same money moddin both cars, the phoon will be infront on any mods up to $10k.

[Martin_D]

Interested to have a GenT even next to my car at a steady 30kph and just stomp together. Its close to instant power and especially since you mentioned it with my tuning development i have had the chance to log and tweak the tune everyday for the last 2 months using EFIlive....the GenT would quickly catch up but thats my point - it would be behind and forcefully inducting my cars fumes.

You are surely having a joke, right? :errr:
A classic case of ignorance is bliss Oztrack :)

[Vulture]

You are surely having a joke, right? :errr:
A classic case of ignorance is bliss Oztrack :)

Aren't the big cube turboed cars devastating in roll-on contests? Oz, you'd probably have a better chance from a standing start.

[HazzaHSV]

My point is for the same money as a phoon you could have either a SS (or runout clubby) with a turbo kit and kill the stock phoon (since I am a v8 man) or a XR6T with mods up to the value of the stock phoon (if I wasn't a v8 man) and kill it again. I think about a car in terms of potential per dollar (new car same class etc), not in terms of which is the best car stock. But I can see why alot of people are, cause they don't want to mod (or have the money to do both).


Hazza, If you spent the same money moddin both cars, the phoon will be infront on any mods up to $10k.

[Oztrack Tuning]

No Tuna
I will have a go.
Yank SS3600 stall and baby cam - 1.622 60 footer without revving faster than 3600 at launch. Flashes there quick - i reckon im in with a decent chance.
You may be underestimating the unconventional choice of a small cam, heads and a good unique stall converter. Small cam = more peak torque and more torque to multiply down low and very very quick arrival of power. More torque than other NA LS1s i mean - not as much as a turbo - but quicker in arrival. How much quicker is the question.

Ofcourse a GenT will have more - but im talking about how long it takes to arrive. So no spooling up first.

Regarding lag in a F6T i would have to drive one - but surely it has enough of a hole down low that a decent setup V8 can have the instant power compared to it i am talking of. If not its a walkover to the turbo Ford.

Instant power is all i am talking about here.

[Martin_D]

Get out a bit more Oztrack, drive a few more cars, live a little. Its a whole new brave world out there....and you might get a few rude shocks! But thats part of the fun :)

[Oztrack Tuning]

I cant help it that no GenTs line up at WSID.....mate ive probably sold you a few GenTs. Even gave them a good plug on Street Commies today.

By the way with my tuning - i am focusing only on NA LS1s at this stage. You know how easy they are to get going well. Have found a few good economy and idle tricks as well - stuff that only a lot of real world logging can find. Weather effects these cars a heap.

[F6Mauz]

I'd say making 300rwkw for $2000-$2500 a good bang for buck. And that's only the beggining:woohoo:

[RED R8]

I'd say making 300rwkw for $2000-$2500 a good bang for buck. And that's only the beggining:woohoo:
Till it all go's bang and ford give your waranty the arse.

[F6Mauz]

Till it all go's bang and ford give your waranty the arse.


Since when in this talk of chuking turbo's on sv8's did warranty have any part:rolleyes:


but I want to Know if a typhoon is going to run a 13.2 over the quater like my old 5.7 VY does with $1300 worth of modifications


Spendng $1300 to make your car go faster voids your warranty.

Stock typhoon running 13.00 at calder tonight would class it as the fastest factory car in australia i think.

[gen3rules]

F6 might have caught up to hsv in performance but in the real world of current petrol prices, maybe a chat to a few ford owners on their fuel consumption might be in order. When a 4l turbo uses more fuel than a 5.7l v8 even on open road runing something is wrong. My mate just sold his bf xr8 cause it was sending him broke filling it up with fuel. Motor has not told the whole day to day story im afraid.

[RobboXR6T]

F6 might have caught up to hsv in performance but in the real world of current petrol prices, maybe a chat to a few ford owners on their fuel consumption might be in order. When a 4l turbo uses more fuel than a 5.7l v8 even on open road runing something is wrong. My mate just sold his bf xr8 cause it was sending him broke filling it up with fuel. Motor has not told the whole day to day story im afraid.

I'm a Ford owner. Come chat to me.

My XR6T uses about 11.4ltrs per 100ks.

My brother has a Maloo and if it is not 12+ then I'm not here. His wifes Adventra is 18+. That is real world driving. This is another case of using bad numbers to highlight a point and ignore good numbers.

If I buy a 6ltr GTO, it won't be for fuel economy.

Anyone that drives with a lead foot will have bad fuel economy.

[Oztrack Tuning]

Can it do 9.4L/100km at 110kph on the freeway like my cam heads ls1?

[Danv8]

Can it do 9.4L/100km at 110kph on the freeway like my cam heads ls1?


Thats slightly better than my edited VY2 Calais.

Thats excellent for a cammed/head V8. :)

[BA$TAD]

Stock typhoon running 13.00 at calder tonight would class it as the fastest factory car in australia i think.

that was you was it? awesome time for a STOCK car :bravo:

[Red CV8 R]

Already done that in my unopened SV8 around Wakefield. Left the S15 (modded), WRX, WRX STi and R32 GTR (modded) in my dust. Okay I had semi-comp tyres on but it certainly didn't put performance into perspective for me.

And mine was the cheapest of the lot.

You are doing better then I am! The GTR was an absolute rocket in a straight line, the EVO wasnt that much slower. Through the twisties they were gone! Not a chance of keeping up for my car :( You are right semi, comps would help, both off the line and through the corners but I tried running around with them on my SS daily driver and that idea wore off after 1000kms and they were sold. Impressive feat by your SV8, what mods?

[nang3]

I'm a Ford owner. Come chat to me.

My XR6T uses about 11.4ltrs per 100ks.

My brother has a Maloo and if it is not 12+ then I'm not here. His wifes Adventra is 18+. That is real world driving. This is another case of using bad numbers to highlight a point and ignore good numbers.

If I buy a 6ltr GTO, it won't be for fuel economy.

Anyone that drives with a lead foot will have bad fuel economy.

thats exactly it, when i drive with a leadfoot i get around 17-18l/100.. otherwise on the way down south at 120kph on c/c in 6th, im getting low 9's, less if i sit on about 110kph..
on average city driving im getting 13-14's and thats with a lot of revving out etc

[RobboXR6T]

To further clarify ... Mine is an average over almost 100,000ks. That includes Wakefield track days.

Doing 110ks in 5th (5 speed box on the BA) is not driving the car hard and I dare say 9s would be about right cruising along a freeway.

Also been told that modded Turbos are actually more efficient under normal driving but less efficient when driven hard.

So the point again being how the car is driven.

[motomk]

Another thing is that i have seen a stock BF F6 run at Calder in High 12's yes there will be alot of varied times due to different conditions, some of you might not believe this, but it has happened .. .

I don't believe that one was stock if it is the one I have been told about.
I saw 13.003 and 13.004 last night from the F6 stockcar! Mini Mentos was driving with his replacement panel Air filter, which rumour has it is worth 40rwkw!!!!!!!;)
I think he has worked out through trial and error and consulting with other people how to drive the thing quickly.

motomk

[HazzaHSV]

Yeah the GTR and the 2006 2.5l STi were damn fast don't get me wrong. But I had about 10 rwkw on them (260 rwkw for me around 250 for them so they definately weren't stock or slow).

Here is the clip of me chasing the STi. http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=51138

I am not saying me or my car is anything special or that these car's were the fastest examples in the world, in fact I am saying the opposite. My car is just an SV8 with a handfull of good mods and semi-comp tyres. When I bought the car it already had mafless tune, GTS maf pipe, 2 1/2" catback, HSV performance brakes, ripshift and 3.9 diff gears. I added pacemaker 4 into 1's, re-tune, underdrive, whiteline swaybars, kings springs and koni adjustable shocks. Sorry about the Off Topic. :eek:


You are doing better then I am! The GTR was an absolute rocket in a straight line, the EVO wasnt that much slower. Through the twisties they were gone! Not a chance of keeping up for my car :( You are right semi, comps would help, both off the line and through the corners but I tried running around with them on my SS daily driver and that idea wore off after 1000kms and they were sold. Impressive feat by your SV8, what mods?

[gen3rules]

My friend has an xr6t that cant get from kalgoorlie to Perth on a tank (600km) at 110kmhr. My other mate who probably drives more like me (xr6t owner a lady) and just sold his xr8 reckons 250km max around town, and to perth sitting on between 110 to 120 with squirts past trucks like i drive the maloo couldnt make it to the lakes (540km) on a tank. The maloo in same driving creeps into the 10s per 100, makes it all the way to Perth on a tank. You would also expect a sedan to get better milage than a ute due to less drag etc. The fact that a 240kw xr6t driven very sedately uses more fuel than my maloo with atune @300kw ute driven slightly harder makes you wonder why you would bother going down the xr6t road, as it uses more fuel and has less power and no v8 soundtrack.:booty:

[BigJim]

After reading the motor mag i have come to the conclusion that they cant drive these cars. Now when my VZ clubsport was stock i managed a 13.5 sec 1/4 mile in 30 odd degree heat. Mine was only 2500klms on clock when i achieved this and it was full weight and me in it and i way around 175kgs so its hauling some weight around.

Also mine was down on power compared to most when std. It dynoed at 209rwkw before my cam upgrade. With my average driving ability to pilot my manual 6sp to 13.5 1/4 i cannot see how these blokes testing in these shootouts can real off such poor times.

I doubt these test cars would have less power than my 209rwkw as i have not seen any stock ones with lower than this.

Get some real drivers and show us what these cars can really do.

[Lucifer]

+++++++++"After reading the motor mag i have come to the conclusion that they cant drive these cars. Now when my VZ clubsport was stock i managed a 13.5 sec 1/4 mile in 30 odd degree heat. Mine was only 2500klms on clock when i achieved this and it was full weight and me in it and i way around 175kgs so its hauling some weight around.

Also mine was down on power compared to most when std. It dynoed at 209rwkw before my cam upgrade. With my average driving ability to pilot my manual 6sp to 13.5 1/4 i cannot see how these blokes testing in these shootouts can real off such poor times.

I doubt these test cars would have less power than my 209rwkw as i have not seen any stock ones with lower than this.

Get some real drivers and show us what these cars can really do.++++++"






This is probably the most stupid comment I have read throughout this thread. If they are indeed as bad as you say they are then wouldn't a better driver get better results for ALL the cars. Or do they only drive badly in the car you and I drive. Have you ever once complained about the result of their driving when a Holden won a comparison?

For the record I would bet the pink slip to my car that Warren Luff could out drive you on any track with any car.

Stop crying in your beer and accept the result like a man. The likes of you make me embarrassed to own a Holden.:argue:


To the dude that owns the Forester............A 6sp Auto F6 will not lag in any gear.(period). The box will not select a gear under WOT that will set the revs below 2000rpm. Even if you tried to induce turbo lag you couldn't achieve it unless you switched to manual mode and deliberatley selected a gear that dropped the revs too low. In full auto mode the car simply doesn't lag. Max torque (550nm) is on tap from 2000rpm. The ailment you speak of is usually associated with Jap turbos that don't get going until 3500+rpm. Clearly you have improved the lag time with yours with some mods. Don't assume your limited experience with turbos applies to all turbos;)

[BigJim]

This is probably the most stupid comment I have read throughout this thread. If they are indeed as bad as you say they are then wouldn't a better driver get better results for ALL the cars. Or do they only drive badly in the car you and I drive. Have you ever once complained about the result of their driving when a Holden won a comparison?

For the record I would bet the pink slip to my car that Warren Luff could out drive you on any track with any car.

Stop crying in your beer and accept the result like a man. The likes of you make me embarrassed to own a Holden.:argue:

Look iam not bagging any of the cars and good on ford for going so well. I considered buying a Typhoon myself before deciding on the clubbie so iam not biassed either way. I dont know who was driving what and i dont care, all iam saying is that it seems these guys arent getting the numbers out of any of the cars that we see posted up day in day out on this site or other sites be it ford or holden.

I didnt ever say i could drive better than luffy and would never be able to, and i would also bet your pink slip he could out drive me as well, i was just stating i believed they should of been able to at least get better times than they had been, but i suppose thats all they could muster up that day out of all cars tested.

Maybe the comment that they cant drive was a wrongly phrased. The numbers vary dramtically from a test at one point in the year to another time later in the year.

I know all cars performance vary from car to car but this is a fair bit from one stock car to another. These mags always have at one time had awsome numbers on a test day then another test day number that are very ordinary, maybe its different timing measures there using.

I was only expressing my opinion based on my own experiences with my car when it was standard.

[double k]

hassa hsv, that is some good driving there champion. you finally got him, well done. the car sounds great too.

good video

[Oztrack Tuning]

Turbos have to lag while they build boost. Power arrives at 2000rpm if boost is built.

There might not seem like a hole when you first pump the throttle from idle the car has a 4.0L engine - but compared to a hi-stalled V8 i bet there is.

Try taking on a VZ Auto Clubsport from a rolling idle and see what happens. There just has to be less throttle response in the Turbo or its game over.

I will have to look at the gear ratios but i bet there will be significant lag off the start line at idle.
Even then when crusing at 100kph and you stomp it the turbo has to spool up before it gets its full hit of torque.

[mavss]

I like the idea of 4 PCOTY's during the year, followed by a grand finale.

It gives regular Joes like myself the opportunity to participate as a lucky bastard as well as grouping cars by region to give a more balanced view.

Then again, if the lucky bastard needs to be subscribed to the magazine, that rules me out as I'm no longer renewing due to the fact that I get my copy between 1-2 weeks after it's on the newsstands.

[Martin_D]

Turbos have to lag while they build boost. Power arrives at 2000rpm if boost is built.
There might not seem like a hole when you first pump the throttle from idle the car has a 4.0L engine - but compared to a hi-stalled V8 i bet there is.

Interesting point. How do you explain the head/cam hi-stall 30mpg V8 being so slow compared to a similarly modded XR6T such as Geeas though? There is something like 1 sec and 10mph difference between your head/cam hi-stall 30mpg V8 and his bolt-on laggy XR6T.

I think I worked it out though....
Geea = 0-2000rpm lag
Oztrack = 3500 - 6600rpm lag
:lmao:

[Phoon Hoon]

Turbos have to lag while they build boost. Power arrives at 2000rpm if boost is built.

There might not seem like a hole when you first pump the throttle from idle the car has a 4.0L engine - but compared to a hi-stalled V8 i bet there is.

Try taking on a VZ Auto Clubsport from a rolling idle and see what happens. There just has to be less throttle response in the Turbo or its game over.

I will have to look at the gear ratios but i bet there will be significant lag off the start line at idle.
Even then when crusing at 100kph and you stomp it the turbo has to spool up before it gets its full hit of torque.
This is a nice theory, but in the real world of Typhoon Vs Clubsport it is incorrect.

The Typhoon belts the Clubsport on rolling accelleration. A reminder of what Motor found when they first compared the two (and I quote)...

Punch both cars from 80km and it's just embarrassing for the HSV. It gets belted from the kick and the poleaxing gets worse with ever meter travelled..

[payaya]

4.0L + Turbo is a deadly combo period!

How many cars do you see have 4.0+ litres and have a turbo slapped on it?

[EfiJy]

this thread still going? :1peek:

i dont kjnow why peole are compaining. the dts was easily the quickest car around the track. 2seconds is one hell of a margin. its not all about tyres as the f6 has some good rubber underneath. the fact that the f6 also has superior torque and speed around corners and straights wasnt enough to overcome its bulk to beat the dts. maybe the holdens will be quicker on a cooler day or maybe the turbos will be better again?

fords won the day but a victory for both holden and ford :diddy: :bravo:

[RobboXR6T]

My friend has an xr6t that cant get from kalgoorlie to Perth on a tank (600km) at 110kmhr. My other mate who probably drives more like me (xr6t owner a lady) and just sold his xr8 reckons 250km max around town, and to perth sitting on between 110 to 120 with squirts past trucks like i drive the maloo couldnt make it to the lakes (540km) on a tank. The maloo in same driving creeps into the 10s per 100, makes it all the way to Perth on a tank. You would also expect a sedan to get better milage than a ute due to less drag etc. The fact that a 240kw xr6t driven very sedately uses more fuel than my maloo with atune @300kw ute driven slightly harder makes you wonder why you would bother going down the xr6t road, as it uses more fuel and has less power and no v8 soundtrack.:booty:

For a start ... I think the Maloo has a bigger tank so that's a no brainer.

Grab a calculator and do some maths.

We had a guy on here say he was in the 9s when cruising. let's make it 10 to do the sums easier.

10 litres per 100ks ... 65 litre tank .. thats 650 kms to a tank cruising. Sedate lady driver you say huh. Check her fuel economy. Don't know too many sedate lady drivers !! :yup: You know .. full throttle ... full brake .. full throttle full brake. Hehehe .. Just messing with you ladies. :)

You said you were in the 10s cruising ..

10 litres per 100ks ... 70 litre tank ... thats 700kms to a tank cruising.

What if I had a shit hot car that did 8 litres per 100 with a 45 litre tank.
8 litres per 100ks ... 45 litre tank ... only around 560 litres per tank ... What a shitbox !!! Fair dinkum ... This thread is getting silly.

If it is fuel economy you really want ... get a Hyundai.

Couldn't agree more EfiJy

[2001 ITR]

400m time is the most important thing, everything else is unimportant.

Hmmmmmm. Only if you live your life a quarter mile at a time.

One thing that strikes me is that their lap times are a bit inconsistent. I know that track conditions vary, HSV has been fiddling with tyre suppliers, Euro3 compliance, no two cars are exactly the same, etc.

Latest (2006) figures:

HSV Clubsport DTS (R spec tyres) – 1:42.95
FPV F6 Typhoon (auto, road tyres) – 1:44.60
Falcon XR6T (manual, road tyres) – 1:44.95
Holden Commodore SS (6.0 litre manual. road tyres) – 1:45.80
Falcon XR6T (auto, road tyres) – 1:45.90
HSV GTO Coupe (manual. road tyres) – 1:45.95
FPV Falcon GT (auto. road tyres) – 1:46.05
Falcon XR8 (auto. road tyres) – 1:46.50

compared to 2004 (maybe 2003?) laptimes.

HSV GTS: Winton lap: 1m 43.44s
Monaro CV8: Winton lap: 1m 43.69s
HSV Maloo R8: Winton lap: 1m 44.91s
SV8: Winton lap: 1m 45.37s
XR6T: Winton lap: 1m 46.28s

I thought that I was beating the times of a 6.0 GTO but now I see that I was slower than a 5.7 CV8. Thats a lot of difference in the times....

[Goggles]

the answer to all of this may be on page 120/121 of the same issue of Motor.....they talk about the "Abuse Mode" feature that most cars have in their PCMs today to prevent driveline abuse and failure.

[Ghosn]

the answer to all of this may be on page 120/121 of the same issue of Motor.....they talk about the "Abuse Mode" feature that most cars have in their PCMs today to prevent driveline abuse and failure.

Would the VZ monaros have this feature?

[gen3rules]

For a start ... I think the Maloo has a bigger tank so that's a no brainer.

Grab a calculator and do some maths.

We had a guy on here say he was in the 9s when cruising. let's make it 10 to do the sums easier.

10 litres per 100ks ... 65 litre tank .. thats 650 kms to a tank cruising. Sedate lady driver you say huh. Check her fuel economy. Don't know too many sedate lady drivers !! :yup: You know .. full throttle ... full brake .. full throttle full brake. Hehehe .. Just messing with you ladies. :)

You said you were in the 10s cruising ..

10 litres per 100ks ... 70 litre tank ... thats 700kms to a tank cruising.

What if I had a shit hot car that did 8 litres per 100 with a 45 litre tank.
8 litres per 100ks ... 45 litre tank ... only around 560 litres per tank ... What a shitbox !!! Fair dinkum ... This thread is getting silly.

If it is fuel economy you really want ... get a Hyundai.

Couldn't agree more EfiJy


For a start maybe you should learn how to use a calculator. My lady friend is an accountant and has the first cent she ever earned thats why she complains about the fuel economy. The difference between the xr6t and the maloo is not huge maybe 1 to 2 L per 100 km but it is worse! nothing i would worry about myself cause like you say they are performance cars. However the xr8 sedan has a bigger tank better drag coefficient and uses a heap more fuel, this might have something to do with the 200kg or so more lard they cart around. Oh and my mate who is the ladies other half owns an ss and cant get anywhere near the same economy out of the turbo. Before i bought the maloo i looked at the Fords but as much as i wanted a performance car fuel economy still matters so i got maloo............ also Ford wouldnt give any test drives so lost a potential sale!

[Chris52]

Would the VZ monaros have this feature?

I'm sure all VZ V8's have this "feature".The main culprit being the fly by wire throttle. The more I drive mine the more the electronic throttle control pisses me off.Hope a tune/edit fixes it.

Cheers

Chris.

[Goggles]

I'm sure all VZ V8's have this "feature".The main culprit being the fly by wire throttle. The more I drive mine the more the electronic throttle control pisses me off.Hope a tune/edit fixes it.

Cheers

Chris.

the fly-by-wire throttle is the key to the "feature"

no matter whether you have the throtttle pedal against the firewall, the pcm will adjust the actual preferred throttle opening to avoid bad "things" from happening

[Gareth@Willall]

I cant help it that no GenTs line up at WSID.....

Oztrack make ya way down too the drag nationals (your one of the 1/4 mile kings in the current pole after all) I wont have a Gen T but a T1000..... I'll still be more than happy to line you up :bravo:

[Vulture]

the fly-by-wire throttle is the key to the "feature"

no matter whether you have the throtttle pedal against the firewall, the pcm will adjust the actual preferred throttle opening to avoid bad "things" from happening

It has its advantages - smoother operation of the traction control for one. No floppy pedal on cruise control etc. Not big issues but all add to refinement.


Would the VZ monaros have this feature?

You bet it does. Particularly bad in the auto.

[RobboXR6T]

For a start maybe you should learn how to use a calculator. My lady friend is an accountant and has the first cent she ever earned thats why she complains about the fuel economy.

Can you point out where my calculator fails me ?

[ADSXR8]

Thread has turned to rubbish because you Holden guys are crying you did not come first, second or third in PCOTY. Because they did not let you drive or use your gun car.

Here's a tissue, and lets see what the VE can produce.

[Goggles]

Thread has turned to rubbish because you Holden guys are crying you did not come first, second or third in PCOTY.

hence why I tried to steer the thread towards the reasons why there may be differences in times.

here is the Motor article (large file warning):

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/Goggles/Motor Article on Abuse Mode.pdf

[HazzaHSV]

Mate there's a big difference between crying we didn't come first, and stating that the F6 is a great car but we are V8 through and through (just so happens the BA/BF is laughable in this area). There may be a minority doing as you suggest but its no different to what some of you Frawd guys have been crying about for the last 10? years.

Try not to generalise especially on the enemies forums.


Thread has turned to rubbish because you Holden guys are crying you did not come first, second or third in PCOTY. Here's a tissue, and lets see what the VE can produce.

[Chris52]

Thread has turned to rubbish because you Holden guys are crying you did not come first, second or third in PCOTY. Because they did not let you drive or use your gun car.

Here's a tissue, and lets see what the VE can produce.


I wouldn't be so hasty too part with your box of tissues.

Cheers

Chris.

[Oztrack Tuning]

i dont trust either Motor or Wheels. They have had their data totally contradictory before and nowhere near real. Some data is guessed i am sure.

They are also probably well and truly open to incentives.

I am not as anti-Ford as many Holden guys - but many of these stories dont add up - especially when the other magazine gets a different result and opinions.

I would rather Top Gear do the test. Interestingly they absolutely loved the Clubsport. If the F6Typhoon is so good they need to start selling it in America and England.
I think the problem in America is that it would end up lumped in with all the blinged ricer cars. Where it is really a good alternative.

[RED R8]

Thread has turned to rubbish because you Holden guys are crying you did not come first, second or third in PCOTY. Because they did not let you drive or use your gun car.

Here's a tissue, and lets see what the VE can produce.
I think you will be reaching for a box of tissues when the new VE comes out to clean up the mess in ya pants.

[Angeldust]

its funny how the baffoon lapped nearly 2 sec slower than the R8.. in fact, everytime they ran a SS/xr8 comparo, the frawds are 1-2 secs slower..

htf can that mean PCOTY? :rofl:

[ADSXR8]

Mate there's a big difference between crying we didn't come first, and stating that the F6 is a great car but we are V8 through and through (just so happens the BA/BF is laughable in this area). There may be a minority doing as you suggest but its no different to what some of you Frawd guys have been crying about for the last 10? years.

Hey, I agree. My last five vehicles where EL XR8, AUI XR8, AUII TE50, BA GT-P and now the Phoon. I miss my V8's enourmous, but its not a pre-req to a great car. Having said that, I too wouldn't give the Typhoon the label of Greatest Supercar ever........

As for the BA/BF laughable, I am unsure on that too. BA's won COTY, BF PCOTY and although the V8's dont have the performance, they still win comparisons because they are overall a better car.

Holden have got the motor/s, lacks the chasis to compliment. I am looking forward to the VE, shoudl be as good, or better than a BA/BF, and dont be suprised if its performance is not whats expected.

Unless Holden has a major problem, the VE will get wildcard entry into PCOTY final (Nov/Dec this year I think)



Try not to generalise especially on the enemies forums.

Yeah, I know. But this was a good thread

[Merlin]

its funny how the baffoon lapped nearly 2 sec slower than the R8.. in fact, everytime they ran a SS/xr8 comparo, the frawds are 1-2 secs slower..

htf can that mean PCOTY? :rofl:

They said that 2 seconds was all down to the R8's semi-race tyres.

[payaya]

isnt the HSV slower around a race track because of the tyres they use? Softer sidewalls or something. Its been stated many times in mags.

[nang3]

its funny how the baffoon lapped nearly 2 sec slower than the R8.. in fact, everytime they ran a SS/xr8 comparo, the frawds are 1-2 secs slower..

htf can that mean PCOTY? :rofl:

as has been pointed out numerous times in many articles its the tyres that make the R8 so quick around the track, muuuucch better than the shitty dunlops that come on the phoon... would be interesting to see what the phoon would do round that track with some super sticky tyres instead ??

[RED R8]

as has been pointed out numerous times in many articles its the tyres that make the R8 so quick around the track, muuuucch better than the shitty dunlops that come on the phoon... would be interesting to see what the phoon would do round that track with some super sticky tyres instead ??
If it all comes down to tyres then I think we have two superb packages that are very hard to pick between so the choice comes down to are you are ford man or are you a holden man or if you have no particular preferance then are you a v8 man or six man .For me I am a V8 Holden man always have been allways will be even if I had half my brain removed and became a ford man I would still opt for a GT over the bufoon but thats just my choice.Fortunatly we are all different thats why manufactures have an extensive vehicle range colours transmissions etc but at the end of the day this rivalry can only result in us the consumer winning....:teach:

[HSV007]

What's with Motor mag saying that you had to be a goliath to use the GTO's manual gearbox, what a bunch of limp wristed poofs! It's not a Hyundai Getz.:limpy:

[Danv8]

What's with Motor mag saying that you had to be a goliath to use the GTO's manual gearbox, what a bunch of limp wristed poofs! It's not a Hyundai Getz.:limpy:


Hehe
Don't give em a Road Ranger crash gearbox.
:)

[HazzaHSV]

Now that's 100 times more civilised than your previous post. :thumbsup:

Okay laughable was a bit harsh but I stand by the fact that the BA/BF 8's are a long way from where they should be, getting kicked in the pants by the T6's and Holden 8's.

As for the BA/BF laughable, I am unsure on that too. BA's won COTY, BF PCOTY and although the V8's dont have the performance, they still win comparisons because they are overall a better car.

Yeah, I know. But this was a good thread
Still is. Just because a few are letting emotions run hot, that's no different to any thread of Ford v Holden on any forum.

[Oztrack Tuning]

Just read the article in the magazine.
Its all a total joke.

Imagine doing car of the year testing in 30-35 deg temps and then doing such slow 0-100k, ET times and calling it a car of the year test!!!!
My wifes auto Forester GT can do 6.7s to 100kph - the times all these cars were doing was disgraceful. low 5s is performance NOT high 5s and 6s.

On a cold day things would be very different.
The F6T would be less effected by the hot air as the intercooler would cool the hot intake air and things would be not so good as a cold day. The V8s with their IAT sensor heat soaked and pulling out timing which usually starts to happen at anything above 40 deg C would be screwing up the results BIG TIME.

Race them in cool common conditions and see what happens.

I am amazed that the magazine bothered to give us such bad data.
Most of these cars should easily be able to do low 13s, comparing them in adverse conditions isnt conclusive enough to be credited with the honour of performance car of the year testing.

[Martin_D]

So, do you think the owners leave them home in the shed on hot days? :lol:

[Aus8]

Even with the intercooler the Turbo Fords would still suffer the same from the heat if not more than the Boss's, L76's and LS2's V8's. Note to motor: Only test cars in cold weather. Get real mate.
Ford won fair and sqaure. The T's are a great car no doubt about it. Bring on the VE et al.

Cheers

Aus8

[Oztrack Tuning]

6s to 100kph - you have to be joking.
My cammed LS1 at 50% Throttle did 13.4/102mph on a 30 deg day. 100kph in 5.2s

The results for these cars are a joke.

How much timing Tuna does a LS2 pull out when equipped with IATs of 50 degrees??

[Lucifer]

30 deg is an average day in brisbane. Would you prefer they wait for winter conditions in summer? WTF?

What is a joke is your assessment of which cars are affected by heat. If you think turbo intercooled cars run better in the heat you are the joke. The overall result would not change regardless of the ambient temperature. It doesn't bother me to know Ford have a better car than the current crop of Holdens. I still enjoy driving my car.

There are way too many soft c*cks here saying "it's not fair", "it's rigged", Ford have payed them more money etc".

Act like men and accept the Turbo 6's are good cars. If you don't like them don't buy them.

[Martin_D]

How much timing Tuna does a LS2 pull out when equipped with IATs of 50 degrees??

Not as much as an XR6 Turbo :idea:

[Swordie]

Not as much as an XR6 Turbo :idea:

You could always have an esky in the boot full of ice to draw air from. I wonder if there are any dual purpose beer coolers and performance devices around.

[nang3]

OK about we subtract 0.5 or 1 second from every result for every car in order to compensate for the extra heat ?? :hmmm:

it is still a valid comparison test because all cars were tested back to back in very similar temps... maybe if it was 20deg cooler there woulnd be an exact correlative decrease in times, maybe the Turbos would be an even higher percentage quicker due to denser air etc..

[HSVMAN]

Dont know what the problem is really. Ford have done bloody well with their turbo performance stats. Holden have done bloody well with the V8.
Good on them both for giving us the cars we love (or hate). I've never been one to take a journal's word as gospel but you cant beat forced induction imo!
Cant wait till we see the Alloytec with a snail or 2 attached :) But the V8s will continue to get better too

[Oztrack Tuning]

I think the cooler air would help the NA cars more - as the Turbos intercooler 'doesnt care' if its intake air is hot or cold. It still rams in the same boost. The NA cars will pull timing and have suboptimal timing in hot conditions. 5min of tweaking with a pc and things would be very different.

[Gareth@Willall]

I think the cooler air would help the NA cars more - as the Turbos intercooler 'doesnt care' if its intake air is hot or cold. It still rams in the same boost. The NA cars will pull timing and have suboptimal timing in hot conditions. 5min of tweaking with a pc and things would be very different.

Its not just AIT you have to worry about. Cooler air is denser and that will work to a turbo's advantage... Match that with cooler AIT's and the turbo will be better again in cooler weather.

Also not everyone has a laptop to adjust there car too suite the conditions better... I just asked for a tune that works all the time in any conditions and got it lol.

[flappist]

The whole test was a farce.....

What they SHOULD have done for the AUSTRALIAN PCOTY was to aquire a number of AUSTRALIAN vehicles from AUSTRALIAN manufacturers, driven them on AUSTRALIAN roads and tracks in AUSTRALIAN weather and that really would have shown a true result.

Hang on, isn't that what they did?

Yep anyone can win at any competition with performance enhancing, the problem is that when you get caught you get disqualified and banned for life.

But then in some other countries where there is a win at all costs mentality, changing the rules or the venue or secret performance enhancement are normal.

Fortunately the AUSTRALIAN PCOTY was held in AUSTRALIA where it is more important to be fair than to win by any means.

F6 won this time, build a bridge.

[Swordie]

I think the cooler air would help the NA cars more - as the Turbos intercooler 'doesnt care' if its intake air is hot or cold. It still rams in the same boost. The NA cars will pull timing and have suboptimal timing in hot conditions. 5min of tweaking with a pc and things would be very different.

I'm no guru. I was reading the Jan or Feb 2006 copy of Street Machine. There is feature article on turbo charged LS1 putting out 1200 KW or HP. It the highest power LS1 getting around. To get this power there is an ice box in the boot to cool air before hitting the engine. If dry ice is added power will increase by an extra 10%. Someone else who has read the article will be able confirm the technicalities..

[RED R8]

The whole test was a farce.....

What they SHOULD have done for the AUSTRALIAN PCOTY was to aquire a number of AUSTRALIAN vehicles from AUSTRALIAN manufacturers, driven them on AUSTRALIAN roads and tracks in AUSTRALIAN weather and that really would have shown a true result.

Hang on, isn't that what they did?

Yep anyone can win at any competition with performance enhancing, the problem is that when you get caught you get disqualified and banned for life.

But then in some other countries where there is a win at all costs mentality, changing the rules or the venue or secret performance enhancement are normal.

Fortunately the AUSTRALIAN PCOTY was held in AUSTRALIA where it is more important to be fair than to win by any means.

F6 won this time, build a bridge.
Ford must have provided cars with higher than standard boost then...:stick:

[Oztrack Tuning]

You have invited this comment Gareth.

People using EFIlive's new custom operating system have full control over what a tune does in different conditions. Much more than a regular operating system. It has an extra table that can change AFRs at different water temps, intake air temps and also specify the AFR at every different MAP and RPM.

I am not so sure anyone can tune a car at one intake temp on a dyno and give someone a safe tune anymore that will suit all conditions. The AFRS vary heaps with the temperature. Get a wideband and drive around with one for a while and find out - we are looking at a range of around 1 full point AFR. There is an intake temp correction for PE mode - but the settings have to be populated with settings that suit the car. People really need to get AFRS checked at 10 deg and at 40 deg to be sure the values are right.

You might be right about the turbos - mine goes much better in cold air - but i thought that was beacause it had a stock Forester GT intercooler.

[Gareth@Willall]

You have invited this comment Gareth.

People using EFIlive's new custom operating system have full control over what a tune does in different conditions. Much more than a regular operating system. It has an extra table that can change AFRs at different water temps, intake air temps and also specify the AFR at every different MAP and RPM.

I am not so sure anyone can tune a car at one intake temp on a dyno and give someone a safe tune anymore that will suit all conditions. The AFRS vary heaps with the temperature. Get a wideband and drive around with one for a while and find out - we are looking at a range of around 1 full point AFR. There is an intake temp correction for PE mode - but the settings have to be populated with settings that suit the car. People really need to get AFRS checked at 10 deg and at 40 deg to be sure the values are right.

You might be right about the turbos - mine goes much better in cold air - but i thought that was beacause it had a stock Forester GT intercooler.


They all go better in the cold mate. My point re tuning was meant to be simple. Not everyone can do it.... I wasnt trying to get into a debate :doh:

[Martin_D]

I think the cooler air would help the NA cars more - as the Turbos intercooler 'doesnt care' if its intake air is hot or cold. It still rams in the same boost. The NA cars will pull timing and have suboptimal timing in hot conditions. 5min of tweaking with a pc and things would be very different.

Its these sorts of comments that lead the educated to believe that not everyone with a laptop and a cable should be classed a tuner. I have been tuning high powered factory and aftermarket turbo and NA cars for 15 - 20 years now, and I can tell you everything in the above statement you have quoted is 100% incorrect. Get some runs on board Oztrack with both turbo and NA engines, and then preach to the public.....lest they should get misinformation :rofl:

[HSVR8-6L]

It sounds like we have to do testing in doors next year at PCOTY to ensure every one is happy with the results. This way the environment can be controlled so every car performs in the exact same conditions. Sound like a stupid idea? Well I was trying to make a statement as stupid as the comments people have making.

Simple point, every car performs in different conditions and on different days but rated on overall performance so at the end you are judged on a level playing field (you win some, you lose some)

[Evil LS1]

I think you will be reaching for a box of tissues when the new VE comes out to clean up the mess in ya pants.


:lmao:

Yeah right. The car has the same power as VZ and somehow despite being over 200kg heavier will defy the laws of physics and win next time. The VZ can't beat a BF and is 50-150kg lighter depending on models. :whip:

[NinetySix]

I think the cooler air would help the NA cars more - as the Turbos intercooler 'doesnt care' if its intake air is hot or cold. It still rams in the same boost. The NA cars will pull timing and have suboptimal timing in hot conditions. 5min of tweaking with a pc and things would be very different.

"heat soak."

[RED R8]

:lmao:

Yeah right. The car has the same power as VZ and somehow despite being over 200kg heavier will defy the laws of physics and win next time. The VZ can't beat a BF and is 50-150kg lighter depending on models. :whip:
Oh sorry I didnt realise the official weight had been released for the VE and the new 6 speed auto was no faster either ,not to mention better gearing to suit alledged weight gain.

[Oztrack Tuning]

Look - the cars all ran shit times. Imagine if we had a LS1 drag comp and everyone ran 14.5s - what would people say - do it again, might as well as raced them in a flood.

Tuna
You spread what might be mis-info often - the only info you share is aimed at making cash. I asked you for some info and you wouldnt bother to share anything about your Boost 98 experiences.

Intercoolers cool the air - some argue that it makes no difference what the intake air is - because electronic boost controllers even out the boost. I believe i have read this from your own type. However i could guess that in cold conditions a normal turbo car will boost more - thats what happens with my Forester.

However what i said still stands - the typical airbox arrangement in an LS2 will have it pulling lots of timing - my bet and it may be wrong is that it will make the LS2s pull more timing out than the F6Typhoon.

I am not competing with you in Tuning Martin, i respect what people know - especially when they share information - i filter it and use it. Thats what people should do with any info i type.


Regarding PCOTY - i dont think we can trust the data. FULL STOP.

[NinetySix]

Intercoolers cool the air - some argue that it makes no difference what the intake air is - because electronic boost controllers even out the boost. I believe i have read this from your own type. However i could guess that in cold conditions a normal turbo car will boost more - thats what happens with my Forester.

the thing about intercoolers is that they cannot reduce temps to lower than ambient... if its a hot day, your going to have hot intake temps no matter what. when an intercooler absorbs lots of heat (like it would on a hot day where ambient temps are very high, and it still has to deal with the heat produced from the turbo/superchargers compressor) it can become what we know as "heat soaked" where it starts to become less and less efficient... almost to the point of actually heating the intake charge rather than cooling it (at least in stop/go traffic).

bigger & better intercoolers have less of an issue with this, but little stock ones like most OEM turbo setups come with can suffer from it quite badly on a hot day

[Oztrack Tuning]

Logging a Turbo lS1 car recently that has a good intercooler i was suprized to see a much cooler IAT on average than on my own car that has a OTRCAI.....But you are right it was above ambient at all times.

[HSVR8-6L]

Regarding PCOTY - i dont think we can trust the data. FULL STOP.

I don't agree, that's exactly how the cars performed on the day. I think MOTOR do a great job.

The fact is still that these cars performed as recorded in those conditions on that day. I agree a car could have run better on a colder day, they could have gone faster with a tail wind etc. But if a customer buys one of those cars it will perform the same in those conditions. What is wrong with that?

[BA$TAD]

The fact is still that these cars performed as recorded in those conditions on that day. I agree a car could have run better on a colder day, they could have gone faster with a tail wind etc. But if a customer buys one of those cars it will perform the same in those conditions. What is wrong with that?
what's wrong with it? look at the name of the forum for starters of course no one will agree, the same thing would happen IF the HSV's were 1, 2 & 3 on the fordforum. Either way you're not going to please everyone. All these ifs and buts, there is no such thing, these were the results, put up with it until the next comparo.

[NinetySix]

no 2 ways about it, the turbos would have gone even better if it was a 15 degree day


so really, what would that prove?

[Oztrack Tuning]

Wait till the other mag does a test.

The LS2 seemed to underperform - i have heaps more faith in them that the data showed.

Just remember my words - we will return to this thread.

I suspect these Magazines are designed to sell - not necessarily to present scientific facts. Its suits them sometimes when the brand that wins changes.

[VZKOOP]

Would the VZ monaros have this feature?
Yes they do......

[Carby650]

interesting article which would apply here on the computers in all these cars. (and hence why people edit theirs) And it used the comparison of the VZ HSV running times from 13.3 to low 14's for the qtr mile. page 120 titled Self Abusers. Might explain or solve some of the differences.

[Goggles]

interesting article which would apply here on the computers in all these cars. (and hence why people edit theirs) And it used the comparison of the VZ HSV running times from 13.3 to low 14's for the qtr mile. page 120 titled Self Abusers. Might explain or solve some of the differences.

I provided a copy of this in Post #205 of this thread.....

anyway in about a week, I will in one of the contenders, and probably be very happy with my choice.

[nang3]

Wait till the other mag does a test.

The LS2 seemed to underperform - i have heaps more faith in them that the data showed.


im sure the guys running low 13's in auto F6's are thinking the same thing!!