Barina "Euro"?

[CharlieDontSurf]

Holden should hedge its bets with the crap Daewoo Barina and re introduce the Spanish built Barina as "Barina Euro" al la Honda. It will give people an option of a quailty(safety) driven product or a price driven product and allow them to have blanket coverage of the small car market segment with a car for all customers.


Any thoughts??

[Jac001]

Was holden's making a resonable profit on the old barina? Despite the poor safety rating the new barina is selling very well.

[HFV6]

You are suggesting a dual branded strategy such as that employed by Holden with the current Viva (Daewoo Lacetti)/Astra (Opel Astra) and the upcoming Captiva (Chevrolet Captiva)/Captiva MAXX (Opel Antara). It would seem to make sense and in theory could strengthen Holden's currently weak small car position. However, it complicates the Holden model range at a time when that is the last thing that Holden needs. It comes down to a simple cost/benefit analysis - Holden sells truckloads of low-priced Barinas and the contribution margin is fat, to maintain a high contribution margin for the new Opel Corsa (European Barina) the price would be close to, if not higher than Viva and approaching Astra. It simply wouldn't provide a high enough payoff to justify the trouble. Distribution and marketing of the product (as well as establishing an all new nameplate- ala Nissan Tiida) would be prohibitively expensive.

The best option in the medium term would be to sever the Opel products from the Holden range all together, leaving the Daewoo-sourced Holden products to fight at the value end of the market and establishing a totally separate brand (Opel?) to fight out the premium end of the market (Volkswagen territory). Other manufacturers have done it successfully (Toyota - Lexus) and many more are verging on doing it (Nissan with Infinity and Honda with Acura) so sooner rather than later would be the best option.

The only thing holding back the higher priced European Holden cars (Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Tigra) from great success is the fact that they are wearing a Holden badge. Wearing a badge with some European heritage behind it, they would be an undoubted success.

[cwhast]

HFV6, do you mean to tell me we are going to get the Opel Antara badged as a Captiva MAXX, to sell alongside the mainstream Captiva?

[gaz vyss]

My daughter bought an 02 barina after I test drove the new 'korean' barina and told her it was a piece of shit. The old 2002 german built barina is streets ahead of the new one and I'm not just talking about the safety rating. You only have to test drive the 2 of them for about 100ft to see the difference.

My 2c worth.:yup:

[cwhast]

i couldn't imagine the new Barina being that crash-hot...
in a accident it would fold like origami, but thats what $12,990 gets u.
you're putting your life in its hands when u travel over 60 kph

[HFV6]

HFV6, do you mean to tell me we are going to get the Opel Antara badged as a Captiva MAXX, to sell alongside the mainstream Captiva?


That is what I mean to tell you! Just wait until November and you'll see!

[Black AH CDX]

i don't like the current barina, i'm a big fan of the Opel product, however the current barina is selling buy the boat load and they have a good margin in them, one of the very few small cars that do, unlike the previous model where holden basically lost money on every single one.

Thats not good business


And the next model will improve a lot, Holden will have a lot more imput rather than just being able to change engine sizes and suspension settings and add their badges. Holden are Running GMDAT so hopefully we start seeing some good light and small cars with cheap prices and huge equipment lists!!

[HFV6]

GMDAT was recently announced as GM's centre of excellence for light and small cars, so there is a lot more development dollars flowing into the company to enable it to improve its small car offerings. However, don't expect the next Barina to light the world on fire, cars like the Captiva and Epica, while fairly decent, still reak of cheap and you can definitely see and feel the cost cutting. They don't shape up compared to GM's European offerings, and neither will the next generation Daewoo Barina. But GMDAT does build cars to a price, and sometimes you can't argue with outstanding value.

[HFV6]

http://80.252.99.81/zooms/zoom01a1/000340bf.jpg
http://80.252.99.81/zooms/zoom01a1/000340bd.jpg
http://80.252.99.81/zooms/zoom01a1/000340fc.jpg
http://80.252.99.81/zooms/zoom01a1/00034085.jpg

[Dacious]

But the current 'Euro' Barina is really the Fiat Punto, with Opel styling and GM engine. As GM sold it's loss-making $2b share of Fiat last year, forget about any more derivatives from there.

A 2002 Barina scored 2 stars in European NCAP testing - in 1997. The 1999 one below got 3 stars. So today it would be maybe less on current ratings which are stricter.

Holden didn't get the 4-star Corsa (rated in 2002) until late 2003 because stocks of the earlier model were so high. Anyone buying a 2002 1.4 in the mistaken belief it is 'safer' is misinformed. Corsas (Barinas) are made in Spain, not Germany.

Do a search of some road tests of that time - they weren't very complimentary.

1993-2000 Corsa B (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=VAU&h_make=VAU&p_model=%20422)

Corsa B 1999 NCAP test (http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=23)

http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/superminis/vauxhall_corsa_1999/vauxhall_corsa_1999.jpg


Why is a car thrown together at a distance in Spain better than one built in Korea? The old car was pretty ordinary. The 2002-05 Barina is safer, but poorly equipped - they took active head restraints out because Opel would only sell them bundled with curtain airbags which pushed the price to $20K retail. There is no ABS - again avail. only with traction control which was too expensive.

In Europe, the 'old' TS Astra 'G' was regarded a bit of an underpowered joke. It had Opel 1.4-1.7 Family one motors, ordinary suspension and brakes and got creamed in the market by the old Ford Focus which was the bestseller.

Holden brings it to Australia - with Holden-specced 1.8-2.2 Family 2 engine, suspension tuning and other fittings of a higher spec and it is a surprise hit. Here the old Focus (even the 2.0) is gutless and ordinary. The Astra even outsold the Corolla one year despite costing 10% more until Toyota dropped the price (and content).

The old Kalos and Lacetti need more done to them, but will no doubt get much better when Holden has more input as they will into the next models. The Holden versions are already better-equipped, more powerful and cheaper than the old Daewoo versions.

And no, I bet neither Holden nor the dealers ever made a buck on the Opel Corsa - they had to pull a lot out of them to get them within $2-3k of the competition.

[volt]

I drive my partners xc barina around most of the week, and I have to say I'm not very impressed with holdens choice not go with the next opel corsa.
Our little spanish barina has been a very good small car for over 5 years. I would not consider buying the Korean car they are trying to sell now as barina (daewoo kalos, :spew: ).

I know that there is only a very small profit margin on small cars, but introducing cars like this will hurt holdens brand image even if they help the bottom line for a while. A holden is only a holden, but it still beats a daewoo.

[Dacious]

Well get used to it - the next generation will probably be engineered by GMDAT, like the Captiva which will be built by Opel, too.

[volt]

Well get used to it - the next generation will probably be engineered by GMDAT, like the Captiva which will be built by Opel, too.

You are quite correct about this. However, with the current daewoo product, I don't believe holden is in the same league as other manufacturers with which it has competed with in the recent past (ford fiesta, honda jazz, mazda 2). The use of a "euro" product has enabled ford oz to market the fiesta as a better engineered and built vehicle, while all holden has is the price tag at the moment. If holden continues to market on price alone (which admittedly, is a good way to move small cars) and does not have a better product, this will affect it negatively in the long term.

[HFV6]

Well get used to it - the next generation will probably be engineered by GMDAT, like the Captiva which will be built by Opel, too.

The only place in the world that will build Captiva is Korea (Other than Russia which will be buliding Captivas in a couple of years for that market). Korea is to build the GM Daewoo Winstorm, Chevrolet Captiva, Holden Captiva, Opel Antara, Vauxhall Antara and Saturn Vue; all built off the same platform. The car is OK, but I can guarantee you, having driven it there is still plenty of DAT in GMDAT (The Epica is even worse).

[HFV6]

But the current 'Euro' Barina is really the Fiat Punto, with Opel styling and GM engine. As GM sold it's loss-making $2b share of Fiat last year, forget about any more derivatives from there.

A 2002 Barina scored 2 stars in European NCAP testing - in 1997. The 1999 one below got 3 stars. So today it would be maybe less on current ratings which are stricter.

Holden didn't get the 4-star Corsa (rated in 2002) until late 2003 because stocks of the earlier model were so high. Anyone buying a 2002 1.4 in the mistaken belief it is 'safer' is misinformed. Corsas (Barinas) are made in Spain, not Germany.

Do a search of some road tests of that time - they weren't very complimentary.

1993-2000 Corsa B (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?p_make=VAU&h_make=VAU&p_model=%20422)

Corsa B 1999 NCAP test (http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=23)

http://www.euroncap.com/images/results/superminis/vauxhall_corsa_1999/vauxhall_corsa_1999.jpg


Why is a car thrown together at a distance in Spain better than one built in Korea? The old car was pretty ordinary. The 2002-05 Barina is safer, but poorly equipped - they took active head restraints out because Opel would only sell them bundled with curtain airbags which pushed the price to $20K retail. There is no ABS - again avail. only with traction control which was too expensive.

In Europe, the 'old' TS Astra 'G' was regarded a bit of an underpowered joke. It had Opel 1.4-1.7 Family one motors, ordinary suspension and brakes and got creamed in the market by the old Ford Focus which was the bestseller.

Holden brings it to Australia - with Holden-specced 1.8-2.2 Family 2 engine, suspension tuning and other fittings of a higher spec and it is a surprise hit. Here the old Focus (even the 2.0) is gutless and ordinary. The Astra even outsold the Corolla one year despite costing 10% more until Toyota dropped the price (and content).

The old Kalos and Lacetti need more done to them, but will no doubt get much better when Holden has more input as they will into the next models. The Holden versions are already better-equipped, more powerful and cheaper than the old Daewoo versions.

And no, I bet neither Holden nor the dealers ever made a buck on the Opel Corsa - they had to pull a lot out of them to get them within $2-3k of the competition.

I'm not sure if you have driven a TK Barina, but dead set it is one of the worst cars I have ever driven. Cheap, flexy, unrefined, loud, squeeky, rattly, not to mention the worst gear change on any production car I have ever sampled. You can't ask for much more for 13490, but the XC was so much better than this in every conceivable way. But if you can't make money from a car (dealer margin for XC was around $300 versus around $1000 for TK, Holden's margin for XC was around -$2000 versus around $2000 for the TK) then what is the point in selling it?

[sKeptiK]

The "new" Barina is the only modern car I can think of that is worse than the model it has replaced. I thought a major point of carmakers releasing new models was to improve in a current models deficiencies....not solely to make more money.

Interesting fact: Asian Barina May 06 sales 806
Euro Barina May 05 sales 823

[BadMac]

The "new" Barina is the only modern car I can think of that is worse than the model it has replaced. I thought a major point of carmakers releasing new models was to improve in a current models deficiencies....not solely to make more money.

Interesting fact: Asian Barina May 06 sales 806
Euro Barina May 05 sales 823

Two things.

1/ The stats show that the change hasn't hurt Holden (yet!)
2/ The only point of releasing a new model is to make money, generally beacause the older dated model has saturated or lost ground to its competition.

There is not a company in the world that doesn't have $$$ as its primary enabler. Social and other objectives may come into the picture further down the line. The profit may only be to enable the business to focus on its primary objective (ie save the world, save the whales, feed the 3rd world, etc). They all need money and struggle to attract enough of it.

[Jac001]

Interesting fact: Asian Barina May 06 sales 806
Euro Barina May 05 sales 823


Not sure where you got these number form but they look a little low... barinas have been selling around 1200 / month


from http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/car-review/1783524.aspx

Barina sales until the end of April this year numbered 5204, compared with 3066 for the same period last year (when the former Corsa-based Barina was on the market).


2000 more cars sold in 4 months is a huge!

[Marco]

Holden should hedge its bets with the crap Daewoo Barina and re introduce the Spanish built Barina as "Barina Euro" al la Honda. It will give people an option of a quailty(safety) driven product or a price driven product and allow them to have blanket coverage of the small car market segment with a car for all customers.


Any thoughts??

What would be the point? When they up-specced the Barina in 2003 or thereabouts and started charging $15,990 for it sales completely tanked.

The next year, they decontented again and sold it for $13,990 like its competitors.

People buying this sort of car do so on price. The only reason that some companies like VW and Peugeot can sell their B-category cars for more than their Korean and Japanese competitors is because some people are silly enough to think that a European badge automatically gets you a better car and are happy to pay more.

Think about it. Punter walks into the showroom, sees the Korean Barina for $13,490 and the Viva for $17,990. The $16,990 in-between Opel Corsa is going to be jammed between 'same size car for less money' and 'bigger car for not much more'.

[Marco]

The only thing holding back the higher priced European Holden cars (Corsa, Astra, Vectra, Tigra) from great success is the fact that they are wearing a Holden badge. Wearing a badge with some European heritage behind it, they would be an undoubted success.

I disagree. The TS Astra used to regularly sell 2500 a month or so, and the AH is still doing a healthy 1500 a month or thereabouts despite starting at $21,990. This is with Holden badging, and I think that's part of the reason for the Astra's success - people see a quality car from a company they know and trust, that they know isn't going to disappear anytime soon, and have confidence to buy. Lots of European brands come and go from this market (Renault, Fiat, Alfa, Seat, even VW) which doesn't really fill you with confidence that the people who sold you your pricey European car are going to be around in five or ten years to sell you parts.

I don't know of a single European brand that is moving small cars in those numbers - and I wouldn't imagine that selling them under an unknown name in this country (ie, Opel) would help very much.

Until Holden is able to get products from Korea that can match what Opel is doing, it's better off selling Opels with Holden badges.

[Marco]

The only place in the world that will build Captiva is Korea (Other than Russia which will be buliding Captivas in a couple of years for that market). Korea is to build the GM Daewoo Winstorm, Chevrolet Captiva, Holden Captiva, Opel Antara, Vauxhall Antara and Saturn Vue; all built off the same platform. The car is OK, but I can guarantee you, having driven it there is still plenty of DAT in GMDAT (The Epica is even worse).

So what's the difference between the Captiva and the Antara - it couldn't be too much, could it? Otherwise Holden is just going to confuse buyers with two different Captivas to sell.

(And what's the story with Epica, why is it so bad?)

[teamkiwi]

Hey HFV6, a little of topic heer but you mentioned that the there will be a Captiva and a Captiva Maxx, which HRT433 also mentioned about in a earlier post this year.

he also mentioned that there was two other names such as Acteva/Maxx and Evoke/Maxx....do ya have any idea as to what these two models could be???

Could the evoke be the new name for the vectra replacement and could Acteva be the name for the T2X which has been speculated to arrive next year?



Posted by 433:Holden Captiva...first pic here...plus other new model news......
"A couple of other thing unearthed in my travels are the names Acteva, Acteva Maxx, Evoke ad Evoke Maxx have also been registered by the general for use downunder...what these are for hasn't been identified yet."

[volt]

Not sure where you got these number form but they look a little low... barinas have been selling around 1200 / month


from http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/car-review/1783524.aspx

Barina sales until the end of April this year numbered 5204, compared with 3066 for the same period last year (when the former Corsa-based Barina was on the market).


2000 more cars sold in 4 months is a huge!

But that's not really a fair sales comparison. The euro barina was nearing the end of its product life cycle where sales are generally lower, whereas the korean barina had just entered the market place recently, in the numbers you quoted. I think a fairer comparison would be from the euro barinas first full year of sales in 2002 (which I couldn't find the figures for :( ).

[Jac001]

But that's not really a fair sales comparison. The euro barina was nearing the end of its product life cycle where sales are generally lower, whereas the korean barina had just entered the market place recently, in the numbers you quoted. I think a fairer comparison would be from the euro barinas first full year of sales in 2002 (which I couldn't find the figures for :( ).


Fair point... prehaps a better way to judge would be % market share for the barina in 2002 and 2006 ? As petrol prices have rised, the market is a lot different for the small car market today than it was 4 years ago, but then there are more competion too.

[cwhast]

I think a fairer comparison would be from the euro barinas first full year of sales in 2002 (which I couldn't find the figures for :( ).
But the Korean Barina hasn't been out for a full year, has it?

[Aus8]

Stuff this Daewoo crap its giving Holden a cheap name! Bring back the EURO models and the biff! Lets not be known as GM-DAEWOO please!

[HFV6]

The "new" Barina is the only modern car I can think of that is worse than the model it has replaced. I thought a major point of carmakers releasing new models was to improve in a current models deficiencies....not solely to make more money.

Interesting fact: Asian Barina May 06 sales 806
Euro Barina May 05 sales 823

The reason that Euro Barina sold this many units was because its price was rock bottom (13990) and so was selling quite well historically. The sole reason that TK sold poorly (compare to previous 1k+ months) is that there is simply no stock of TK around to sell. The plant that produces TK's in Korea is maxed out due to world demand, there was a fire in the factory that shut it down for a considerable period, and a boat load of TK's (an entire month's supply) was dropped off and deserted in a random Asian country (can't remember which one) by the shipping company Holden uses. There is no question that every TK Barina that enters the country is more than likely already sold. People want TK Barina because it is adequate (not great, but acceptable) and cheap. At the end of the day the bottom end of the car market is incredibly price sensitive and TK Barina is the cheapest car on sale in Australia today. When the idea of a Korean sourced Barina was first floated I was totally against the idea and I was convinced that it would not succeed - I have been proved wrong.

[HFV6]

Hey HFV6, a little of topic heer but you mentioned that the there will be a Captiva and a Captiva Maxx, which HRT433 also mentioned about in a earlier post this year.

he also mentioned that there was two other names such as Acteva/Maxx and Evoke/Maxx....do ya have any idea as to what these two models could be???

Could the evoke be the new name for the vectra replacement and could Acteva be the name for the T2X which has been speculated to arrive next year?



Posted by 433:Holden Captiva...first pic here...plus other new model news......
"A couple of other thing unearthed in my travels are the names Acteva, Acteva Maxx, Evoke ad Evoke Maxx have also been registered by the general for use downunder...what these are for hasn't been identified yet."


The Acteva/Evoke names were possibilities but in the end the decision was made to go with the global name -Captiva. The two models are Captiva (based on Chevrolet Captiva) and Captiva Maxx (Opel Antara). The Vectra replacement (V250) is also to be named in line with other global markets as Epica.

[Marco]

Will be interesting to see how well the Epica sells - what killed the ZC Vectra was its absurdly high launch pricing ($34,990 for the 2.2 litre manual at launch!). Although the V6 models were well specified and priced reasonably well against its natural competitors, it was still too close to the big Aussie cars in price despite being a considerably smaller car. That's possibly the only case where not being a Holden would have helped it to sell better, as the punters wouldn't have been comparing it to the Commodores it was parked next to in showrooms.

I'll bet plenty of people who bought ZC Vectras will be ropable at resale time, too. My parents bought a CDX at $43,990 the month after it launched, which for the past year or so has been selling on runout at $34,990. Bet that does wonders for my parents' Vectra's tradein value when they offload it!

[sKeptiK]

The sole reason that TK sold poorly (compare to previous 1k+ months) is that there is simply no stock of TK around to sell.

...a $500 price rise too perhaps, not to mention the negative publicity of the poor crash test results...

[Black AH CDX]

yeah, u can not get these things, we have people waiting to get TK7's ie the MY07 models as in certain varients all the TK6's are sold out