Nulon Additives

[dcholden]

Hi Guys,

Just a question, do any of you use Nulon additives in your engines/transmissions etc? Several people have told me that I should use them, especially on engine and transmission. I have performance engine treatment in at the moment, and was thinking about using the transmission additive, one of my mates said it smoothed his transmission changes out big time when he added. Was just wondering what your opinions were? Was also going to use the Engine Oil Flush at next service.

Feedback much appreicated!!

[karter42]

I have been using Nulon in lots of different applications from oil additives to paste for slipper bearings, cam shaft installations, valve stems etc etc for 18+ years and personally think its great stuff.

[Speedie]

I use Pro-Ma additives so cant comment on Nulon

[Y2kGoofball]

I was looking through the list of Nulons tuff avail through work and think I found it, a transmission additive thats supposed to make shifting smoother?

I might try some before Sundays cruise

There was also the performance engine additve, is that stuff any good? All up its like 20 bucks worth for both so I'm not concerned with price just dont want it to damage the engine!

As for oil flush we use it all the time at work (go through bottles of it) and it appears to do the trick! Just cleans out all the built up gunk and sludge thats built up in the system

[karter42]

I was looking through the list of Nulons tuff avail through work and think I found it, a transmission additive thats supposed to make shifting smoother?

I might try some before Sundays cruise

There was also the performance engine additve, is that stuff any good? All up its like 20 bucks worth for both so I'm not concerned with price just dont want it to damage the engine!

As for oil flush we use it all the time at work (go through bottles of it) and it appears to do the trick! Just cleans out all the built up gunk and sludge thats built up in the system


I use the transmission additive and also E20 in every oil change at 5k intervals and have done with all my cars and bikes for years.


Its all good!! :thumbsup:


Saying that, do not use until your motor is run in, otherwise you will have bedding in issues.

[Ausmartin1]

Nulon for transmission ? thats a new one, must ask the auto people how it effects performance /life.

For the engine forget it.

Indepoendant tests showed more cylinder bore wear and the only one way use PTFE (Nulon) is not as an oil treatment, but baked on during manufacture like GM does to Piston skirts, otherwise it blocks filters, oil galleries and it is NOT recomended as and an engine oil additive by Dupont the makers of the key ingredient.

Much better to use good quality oils or premium synthetic, the oil manufactures and car makers have done the hard yards in this area, not so with additive companies especially if you engine dies during warranty as they aint going to pay if you they lab test your oil & find the forbidden additive shite in it. Read the hand book.:burnout:

[karter42]

Nulon for transmission ? thats a new one, must ask the auto people how it effects performance /life.

For the engine forget it.

Indepoendant tests showed more cylinder bore wear and the only one way use PTFE (Nulon) is not as an oil treatment, but baked on during manufacture like GM does to Piston skirts, otherwise it blocks filters, oil galleries and it is NOT recomended as and an engine oil additive by Dupont the makers of the key ingredient.

Much better to use good quality oils or premium synthetic, the oil manufactures and car makers have done the hard yards in this area, not so with additive companies especially if you engine dies during warranty as they aint going to pay if you they lab test your oil & find the forbidden additive shite in it. Read the hand book.:burnout:


Interesting, I did over 280,000k's with a red 202, Nulon every 5k, when I stripped it down, the crank was in exceptional condition, a light linish was all that was required, block was clean as, infact, no sludge or any signs of blockage. As for the bore and pistons? this baby was still running fine, the only reason I stripped her was to upgrade her to XU1 Spec.

Same is true for all the bike engines I have built over the years.

Can you tell me who the independent company was that did the tests? would like to have a read on that.

Thanks,

Dave.

[Ausmartin1]

[QUOTE=karter42]Interesting, I did over 280,000k's with a red 202, Nulon every 5k, when I stripped it down, the crank was in exceptional condition"

But would it have been in better condition had you not being using adatives ?
Heck I pulled apart a diesel after 260,000Km -it was all in factory build tolerances! ie really no wear, not measuring in the wear tolerance- Heres a suprice it never had adatives just crappy straight diesel oil & filter every 5K as well.
Here are two links of the Web, the second is where dear old slick 50 gets sued for false advertising. Make up your own mind as this is a very touchy subject with people & I am of the scepticle kind on this one!

1) http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansyntheticoil/id11.html
The Infamous "No Oil" Demo
At at least three major motorcycle rallies this past year, we have witnessed live demonstrations put on to demonstrate the effectiveness of certain oil additives. The demonstrators would have a bench-mounted engine which they would fill with oil and a prescribed dose of their "miracle additive." After running the engine for a while they would stop it, drain out the oil and start it up again. Instant magic! The engine would run perfectly well for hours on end, seemingly proving the effectiveness of the additive which had supposedly "coated" the inside of the engine so well it didn't even need the oil to run. In one case, we saw this done with an actual motorcycle, which would be ridden around the parking lot after having its oil drained. A pretty convincing demonstration - until you know the facts.
Since some of these demonstrations were conducted using Briggs and Stratton engines, the Briggs and Stratton Company itself decided to run a similar, but somewhat more scientific, experiment. Taking two brand-new, identical engines straight off their assembly line, they set them up for bench-testing. The only difference was that one had the special additive included with its oil and the other did not. Both were operated for 20 hours before being shut down and having the oil drained from them. Then both were started up again and allowed to run for another 20 straight hours. Neither engine seemed to have any problem performing this "minor miracle." After the second 20-hour run, both engines were completely torn down and inspected by the company's engineers. What they found was that both engines suffered from scored crankpin bearings, but the engine treated with the additive also suffered from heavy cylinder bore damage that was not evident on the untreated engine. This points out once again the inherent problem with particulate oil additives: They can cause oil starvation. This is particularly true in the area of piston rings, where there is a critical need for adequate oil flow. In practically all of the reports and studies on oil additives, and particularly those involving suspended solids like PTFE, this has been reported as a major area of engine damage.

2)A copy of the USA FTC message http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/s50com.html

PTFE - Dupont "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines."

Here again, the' scientific evidence seems to support this, as in tests conducted by researchers at the University of Utah Engineering Experiment Station involving Petrolon additive with PTFE. The Petrolon test report states,
"There was a pressure drop across the oil filter resulting from possible clogging of small passageways." In addition, oil analysis showed that iron contamination doubled after using the treatment, indicating that engine wear didn't go down - it appeared to shoot up"

Avco Lycoming, a major manufacturer of aircraft engines, states, "We have tried every additive we could find on the market, and they are all worthless."

Briggs and Stratton, renowned builders of some of the most durable engines in the world, says in their report on engine oil additives, "They do not appear to offer any benefits."

North Dakota State University conducted tests on oil additives and said in their report, "The theory sounds good- the only problem is that the products simply don't work."

"'Road Rider' magazine, a 'Consumer Reports' type of magazine for motorcycles (product reviews, accepts no advertising) did an extensive investigation of Slick 50 and its cousins. Short answer: do you engine a favor, stay away from the tuff...Quoting from the "Road Rider"

And finally, Ed Hackett, chemist at the University of Nevada Desert Research Center, says, "Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive pack age that meets the vehicle's requirements. If you add anything to this oil you may upset the balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification."

hington, D.C., this twelfth day of July, 1996 the USA Federal Trade Commission fined Quaker State-Slick 50 for false advertising.
They said that Slick 50 could not back a single claim and that all government tests showed that Slick 50
did - not- reduce start-up wear,
did - not - increase the life of an engine and
did - not - reduce friction.
Slick 50 is no longer advertising these claims since the government fine.
Also, the FTC is investigating Slick 50 for consumer fraud - basically they've been doing what the chemists have been insisting for years - ripping people off.
Teflon does not bond to metal (Unless you coat before assembly) There is no chemical additive which will make it bond to metal. The way teflon is bonded is by using a combination of high temperature and pressure, neither of which exist in sufficient
quantities in the engine areas that Slick 50 claims to bond to (bearingsurfaces, etc). If the heat and pressure sufficient to bond teflon existed in those areas you would spin a bearing or do other severe engine damage.
In addition, teflon turns into an acid under intense heat
(under the piston, around the valves, etc). Dupont tried years ago to stop sales of teflon to Slick 50 because Dupont's testing showing that teflon may harm the engine by clogging the oil filter and oil return passages. Slick 50 won a restraint of trade case but for a while they could not use the trademark "teflon" instead they used "PFTE". Also, Slick 50 has _never_ published their so-called "independent lab tests", the only thing they've said is "tests prove it".

A copy of the USA FTC message http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/legal/s50com.html

[matthewfnorbert]

Nulon for transmission ? thats a new one, must ask the auto people how it effects performance /life.

For the engine forget it.

Indepoendant tests showed more cylinder bore wear and the only one way use PTFE (Nulon) is not as an oil treatment, but baked on during manufacture like GM does to Piston skirts, otherwise it blocks filters, oil galleries and it is NOT recomended as and an engine oil additive by Dupont the makers of the key ingredient.

Much better to use good quality oils or premium synthetic, the oil manufactures and car makers have done the hard yards in this area, not so with additive companies especially if you engine dies during warranty as they aint going to pay if you they lab test your oil & find the forbidden additive shite in it. Read the hand book.:burnout:

agree.
all the oil guys i know (tribologists who are independant of oil companies and service [oil testing machine life extension] industry and not auto service guys from your fav mechanic shop etc, will tell you that 99.9% of additives (so anything sold to motorists over the counter!) are rubbish. some actually cause wear debris (make metal) during initial life, esp the chemical additives which need to attack the load surfaces. also the oils job is too keep componets "apart" with no metal to metal contact so additives often just take the place of a good correctly specified oil. also as additives break down they produce unwanted rubbish, again taking the place of the oil and can actually themselves cause unwanted changes to oil chemistry. And remember all those lovely oil demostration rigs with torque wrenches attached showing you just how much the additive assists during metal to metal contact is utter horse trading as any reliability engineer etc will not even consider putting additives for this scnerio as his job is to ensure the metal contact never occurs and thus never needing these additives.

good chemical additives (not sold over the counter etc) used by oil companies ensure temp and visc stabilty or extreme pressure additives, all designed to keep components apart. there is plenty of data out there on monitoring additives etc and the effects on oil and machine wear.

if you want to understand oil, oil life, testing and additives use google to search on such topics as "oil tribology"

just 0.02cents worth

[pah]

For the engine forget it. Much better to use good quality oils or premium synthetic, the oil manufactures and car makers have done the hard yards in this area, not so with additive companies especially if you engine dies during warranty as they aint going to pay if you they lab test your oil & find the forbidden additive shite in it. Read the hand book.:burnout:

I used to use cheaper oil (GTX2) and Nulon every 5,000 km's but figured that it would be cheaper to use a good synthetic oil every 10,000 km's. The Oil Co's I spoke to said that synthetic every 10,000 km's would give better protection than mineral oil every 5,000 km's. I'm using Shell Helix Ultra.




PAH

[karter42]

Thanks Ausmartin1,

Some interesting reading....
Wont change my mind though, I guess its hard to get out of the "works for me" mentality.

[Ausmartin1]

Just in case anyone is thinking of trying the other additives from the 1930's
read this link below, as prev. pointed out by Matthew... the real good ingredients are not sold to the public, but are only available commecially.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:PPf3TCda1G4J:www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D131897+diff+oil+addatives&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=11

"We had various of these magic addatives tested last year. The chemists comment were quite scathing the say the least! I would not use them, a decent oil contains all the correct ones so don't waste your money.

General Remarks on Chlorinated Additives.

A number of ‘add-on’ additives intended to improve the performance of commercially available automotive lubricants have been marketed in recent years, under such names as ‘Xxtralube ZX-1’, ‘Metol FX-1’, ‘PPL Anti-Friction’ and ‘Activ-8’.All such products share the following characteristics with ‘X-1R Friction Eliminator’:-

1) They all contain chlorinated paraffin ‘exteme pressure’(EP) compounds first used in the 1930s in heavily-loaded industrial gearboxes, and in some automotive transmission applications, mainly hypoid gears.

2) They all corrode copper-based alloys at moderate temperatures, easily exceeded in all engine, and most transmission applications.This problem was recognised in the 1930s, and chlorinated compounds were never used in transmissions with bronze bearings or gears. No responsible manufacturer ever suggested using them in engines where their increasing activity at high temperatures could lead to piston ring corrosion and bore glazing. (For the same reason, modern ‘hypoid’ additives are not used in engines, even though they are much safer than any chlorinated additive.)

3) X-1R Friction Eliminator and its clones are based upon very outdated technology, which was abandoned by responsible lubricant manufacturers for automotive transmission uses in the 1950s. Chlorinated compounds still find applications in metal working, but their use is on the decline because of health and safety considerations.

4) When burnt, chlorinated paraffins produce corrosive hydrochloric acid, and organo-chlorine compounds including the highly poisonous phosgene gas. Apart from these corrosion and health hazards, with petrol engines the deactivation of exhaust catalysts is also a problem.

5) Unfortunately, these additives give spectacular results in simple EP test machines such as the ‘Falex’. As a marketing ploy, a demonstration of this type looks impressive to those not aquainted with the above facts. Also attractive is the low cost of chlorinated compounds, allowing profits of several thousand percent to be made.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Simon"

[ezyb]

Hahah dont trust none of that performance enhancing additives off the shelf crap...wont do s**t to your car, infact might even pull ur pocket for a tune after.

[VYBerlinaV8]

There's a lot to be said for regular servicing with good quality oils and filters, and for warming your car before thrashing it. Do these things and you're probably as protected as you reasonably can be.

[matthewfnorbert]

There's a lot to be said for regular servicing with good quality oils and filters, and for warming your car before thrashing it. Do these things and you're probably as protected as you reasonably can be.

sensational advice!

to prolong engine life we need to change the oil out to primarily remove the wear debris, if this is done prior to the engine oil degrading chemically and viscosity is good then you will get max engine life.

in fact in the reliability engineering world we can calculate how much wear debris and engine or gearbox may "pump" every year then apply oil ISO Cleanliness standards and benchmarks, do this and improve the cleanliness we can extend machine life by more than 11 times!!! the real smart trucking compnaies around the world do this, set an iso target and change oil on condition only.

some interesting info:
Ever noticed that mobil 1 looks clean on the dipstick even right up to oil change time, it looks impressive, we even show our mates!. then drain the oil into a container and man its all black!!!!! this stuff does not hold carbon/soot etc in suspension very well so in small undisturbed quantities it looks clean

[VSSII]

Nulon/Slick 50 sales reminds me of Grampa Simpsons love tonic he sold in one episode travelling from town to town

" Lemme sell it, you idjit. Step right up, folks, and witness the magnificent medicinal miracle of Simpson & Son's patented revitalizing tonic. Put some ardor in your larder with our energizing, moisturizing, tantalizing, romanticizing, surprising, her prizing, revitalizing tonic."

Grampa: "You're the worst shill I've ever seen! You're a disgrace to the medicine shill business."
Homer: "They didn't start chasing us until you turned on that getaway music!"

There's a sucker born every minute

[karter42]

Moving off the engine side with additives, who has suffered from the dreaded diff chatter? what was the cure for you?

I replaced my diff oil in the VT and VX that were suffering from diff chatter, did not help, spoke to Holden, then some other reputable LS1 members and said I needed an addidtive, so ok, go and buy addiditve, put in diff, all good.

mmmmm adddditttivess... droooool :woohoo: hey Homer, is that you?

[pah]

Hi Guys,

What do you make of this quote from the Nulon web site?

http://www.nulon.com.au/facts/Factsheet%20105.PDF

"Nulon Products Australia Pty Ltd has on numerous occasions driven motor cars long distances without the benefit of engine lubrication oil. In all instances such events have been scrutineered by reputable and highly respected organisations. On all occasions the engines have had a PTFE
dosed lubricant operating for 5,000 kilometres prior to having the oil drained. The vehicles have then been driven distances ranging from 500 kilometres to in excess of 1,000 kilometres. In 1983 a Holden Commodore was driven 1,031 kilometres from Sydney to Melbourne without oil in the crankcase. At all times the oil light and/or gauge registered nil oil pressure. Nulon has conducted such demonstrations on no fewer than six occasions. To substantiate the claim of a residual coating of PTFE on the friction surfaces of an engine, Nulon has adopted precisely the same procedure without the inclusion of PTFE. In all instances the engine concerned seized the main bearings within five kilometres."




PAH

[karter42]

I still clearly remember the day they announced it, been using it ever since.

[dcholden]

Wow, definitely some divided opinions here. I actually put the Auto transmission stuff in yesterday, and i'll tell you what a huge difference it makes! The thing shifts so smoothly now, wish I had of done it earlier!

[Dacious]

some interesting info:
Ever noticed that mobil 1 looks clean on the dipstick even right up to oil change time, it looks impressive, we even show our mates!. then drain the oil into a container and man its all black!!!!! this stuff does not hold carbon/soot etc in suspension very well so in small undisturbed quantities it looks clean

Er, way to totally misinterpret what you're seeing. It does hold pariculates in suspension very well - and drops them to tbe bottom of the sump away from the oil pickup so it drops into the oilpan come change time.

The true test of an oil's cleaning ability is what the engine looks like when you pull it down. Any good quality modern oil contains detergents and scrubbers to remove deposits. If it didn't your oil would stay clean and your internals dirty.

The fact your dipstick is clean but black shit is dropped on a change is a sign it is working as directed. Most murkiness in oil is water particles trapped in emulsion blocking light. Again, you don't want water sucked in.

I remember when Mobil 1 was released. They too did their own slight-of-hand. They showed a BMW 318 running for several thousand hours on a rolling road in top gear with a load applied to hold it at it's acheivable top speed. On conventional oil, that is how car companies duplicate 100's of thousand K's of normal wear.

When they pulled the motor down, the crosshatches from honing were still visible in the bores, and all bearings including big ends, mains, cams etc were all within manufacturers' new tolerance. Compared to a car run on conventional oil were wear was visible and measurable.

As to smoothness in slusher shifts - maybe the 'additive' is just causing your trans clutch packs to slip........

[Aussie V8]

I bought some of the Nulon Lifter flush and intend to add that next oil change. I have one very noisy lifter and it may help. Of course it is probably a terminal problem with the lifter that only replacement will fix. Worth a try for 12 bucks.

[seldo]

From a post a couple of years ago:


Many years ago we had a Gemini workshop van that endured a round-robin succession of apprentices who used to thrash this poor thing to death. It survived a couple of near seizings when hoses burst etc and after about 250,000ks was getting very tired and using about a litre of oil a week. Someone suggested that we put some Nulon in it and our workshop manager poo pooed the idea, but finally agreed provided we did a "scientific" test. So we put fresh oil in it, ran it for a few days and then did a compression test - 110 -120. Then we added the Nulon (E30 I think...whichever one they recommend for worn engines) and ran it for a week or so and a fresh compression test - 145!! Oil consumption also dropped to 1 litre/ month. I have to say, no-one was more surprised than I..

On the other side of the coin, we also had a customer who had a Renault 16TS auto and although there was nothing wrong with it he put the transmission stuff in it for no reason other than he thought there'd be an "improvement" . It totally stuffed the tranny as all the bands/clutch packs slipped. Nulon were very good about it and paid for a tranny rebuild.

[IIV8II]

I stuck some Nulon stuff in one of my old VW gearboxes - made it feel nice. Much nicer than it had been before, and nicer than all my other VW gearboxes. And all for about $11. No big investment

[Y2kGoofball]

I put some of the trans stuff in today, got it from work for 6 bucks why the heck not. Definately alot smoother shifting already. The true test will be later on this morning, it lkes to "thud" into reverse when its cold so we'll see, although during the trip home today not once did it thud into gear.

Probably done more harm then good in the long run by putting it in, then again it might acctually do some good.

[OneManEmpire]

I remember when Mobil 1 was released. They too did their own slight-of-hand. They showed a BMW 318 running for several thousand hours on a rolling road in top gear with a load applied to hold it at it's acheivable top speed. On conventional oil, that is how car companies duplicate 100's of thousand K's of normal wear.

When they pulled the motor down, the crosshatches from honing were still visible in the bores, and all bearings including big ends, mains, cams etc were all within manufacturers' new tolerance. Compared to a car run on conventional oil were wear was visible and measurable.


OT I know, but... i remember going for a drive one night and stopped at a Mobil servo to get a drink. There was a Mobil 1 stand and a video playing a Mobil 1 demo. I stood there for 15 minutes or so watching it... it was way cool. Does anyone have this video? I have been chasing it on and off for over 12 years now. Cheers.

The video showed things like 2 glass frying pans one with Mobil 1 and the other with "normal" oil, heated on a stove top until the Mineral oil turned to black carbon sludge while Mobil 1 stayed gold and runny...

They also had a Beema locked in a refridgerated shipping container and they froze this beema to minus 40c from memory, and then fired it up no probs. Then ran that same car on an outside dyno, in the weather for x thousands of kays, then pulled the engine down and measured everything.
As you can probably guess, it all measured up spot on. There was heaps of carbon built up in the combustion chambers tho, prolly cause it never had any wide open throttle loading to blow it out...

Sorry I know it's a long post... :(

[VQ304]

Wow, definitely some divided opinions here. I actually put the Auto transmission stuff in yesterday, and i'll tell you what a huge difference it makes! The thing shifts so smoothly now, wish I had of done it earlier!

Exactly what I think. Nulon auto transmission additive definately is not a gimmick. I bought some today and can't believe how much of a difference it has made.

Anyone who's driven a Holden with the old hydraulic transmission (VN/VQ/VP) will know how harsh they are during gear changes. Mine used to chirp second when I rev it to anything over 2500rpm, and it wasn't even shift kitted. Now with the Nulon additive it almost feels like a brand new car, can't feel the gear changes at all.

And to think I've been driving around for years WITHOUT this stuff :doh: