New Falcon announced tomorrow (10th)

[Carby]

In some ways you are right. BA was not a generation ahead of VZ, it is the same generation ie in terms of design origin and age.
My view is that in terms of LOOKS, DESIGN and EQUIPMENT, VE is a generation ahead. It simply dates earlier shapes such as AU-BA or VT-VZ. Those platforms were and are upgraded to the extent there was no more they could do without major platform and panel changes.
VE is the beginning of e new era or in terms you are struggling with "generation". The next generation for Falcon is Orion. BF is a culmination and final draft of the current platform without including BFII which falls into the same category.
Hope that clears it up:)

Just backing up HSVMAN - I think there a many ques for the generational gap. The modern design look, The tighter body, smaller panel gaps, the lack of Overhang, 50:50 weight distribution, all alloy engines, accent on safety giving rise to thick A pillars. VT was generational car and so is VE.

I really don't know why some have a problem with this - it has happened with Ford new models as well. Look at the difference of XD/E/F to the Introduction of EA - styling wise a generation apart !!
Notice I didn't mention the AU because it was errr.....lets say too many generations forward styling wise!!

[payaya]

Im a Ford man but i'll admit when credit is due. The do believe Holden have got it right with the VE Styling. It does make the BF look a tad dated, but theres no denying what the Falcon has underneath its skin. Its still the benchmark in Aussie cars!

Bring on the VE! Lets see the first comparo. I believe it will be a close one!

[HSE2]

Just backing up HSVMAN - I think there a many ques for the generational gap. The modern design look, The tighter body, smaller panel gaps, the lack of Overhang, 50:50 weight distribution, all alloy engines, accent on safety giving rise to thick A pillars. VT was generational car and so is VE.

I really don't know why some have a problem with this - it has happened with Ford new models as well. Look at the difference of XD/E/F to the Introduction of EA - styling wise a generation apart !!
Notice I didn't mention the AU because it was errr.....lets say too many generations forward styling wise!!

I think I can answer that easily. (hope) The difference is when you say the next generation with in the confines of the company product everyone knows what that means and that uses your example. It’s basically just used to say this is new>

When people start rolling out a "generation ahead of the competition", people start applying greater emphasis to the individual parts that make up the car and start breaking them down, trying to understand the statement because instead of being new it gains "better" context. If something is better then how much is it better by?

When you say a generation ahead of the competition you first have to understand truthfully where the competition is at. There has to be a value placed on it and that’s where the trouble comes in because no two people will see the product in exactly the same way. That’s why we have so many arguments over reviews because the value system won’t be the same for everyone. What you term as a modern appearance might not necessarily be the same as mine. However the chances of getting consensus on panel gaps are much higher because we are preconditioned to it. Smaller margin equals higher quality so that then becomes the industry standard and is indeed a generation ahead becoming the benchmark for all others to aspire to.

Thanks HSVMAN. I understand your point of view.

[payaya]

Look at the big picture. Competition is what makes Aussie cars some of the best in the world! For such a small country we are very lucky to be building these cars, and also be so good at building them.

Americans are jealous of what we have, and its stupid to think they are right! They are the big consumers, and also Ford/Holden originated from the US!

I guess in the end we gotta think no matter how much of a biased supporter you are, we still appreciate what the other side has to offer.

[VX11SS]

I m going out on a limb here, VE is an inflated Audi A4with a couple of BMW styling tweaks thrown in. Note that the A4 design is already 4 odd years old and the BMW stuff is way back.
I know that maybe the next update of the VE is hopefully a bit more "out there" but looking at this car now it is already "dated" (as in it looks like it shoud have come out at least 4-5 years ago) compared to some of the new Euro/Japanese stuff, this maybe a good thing when you look at the newer BMWs lol but does not say much really for the design team at Holden. Dont get me wrong this is a good looking car and a nice jump forward over VZ but I feel that its already behind the eight ball. Ford are no better in this respect and I suppose it is a car aimed at a fairly consertvative market.
I just hope the new Falcon does resemble that concept as this would be a bold move and would show some actual guts in moving the styling forward on the big ozzie sedans IMHO
Cheers Jay

[Ghia351]

It has variable valve timing (2 settings) but not constantly variable of which there is a major difference in terms of efficiency.
I thought BF has continuously variable camshaft timing apart from the e-gas model. You might be thinking of the Barra182.

[clubbie]

Just read some comments that make me laugh in this thread. Good value.

On a serious note I absolutely hated the look of the AU series Falcons and so did the general public and fleets (more to do with values than looks). Something that really concerns me is that Mercedes have the CLS which looks like an AU and everybody raves about the looks of the CLS. Take a look at the rear 3/4 looks all AU. Look at the front 3/4 Au all over it. Side profile very similar. So do we deduce that the AU was ahead of its time...no..it was just a poorly executed design, and now we have BFII in exactly the same boat.

BTW I have seriously considered the Phoon as the next purchase as I believe it looks and goes pretty darn well, with good posibilities for an edit etc. But seeing the SSV in black today at City Holden (c'mon Don where's my test drive) my opion has changed towards the VE. CLAAASS.

Clubbie

[payaya]

Just read some comments that make me laugh in this thread. Good value.

On a serious note I absolutely hated the look of the AU series Falcons and so did the general public and fleets (more to do with values than looks). Something that really concerns me is that Mercedes have the CLS which looks like an AU and everybody raves about the looks of the CLS. Take a look at the rear 3/4 looks all AU. Look at the front 3/4 Au all over it. Side profile very similar. So do we deduce that the AU was ahead of its time...no..it was just a poorly executed design, and now we have BFII in exactly the same boat.

BTW I have seriously considered the Phoon as the next purchase as I believe it looks and goes pretty darn well, with good posibilities for an edit etc. But seeing the SSV in black today at City Holden (c'mon Don where's my test drive) my opion has changed towards the VE. CLAAASS.

Clubbie

The AU is ugly the CLS is hot! They have similar rear lights but that is about it!

[V-Car]

I know that maybe the next update of the VE is hopefully a bit more "out there" but looking at this car now it is already "dated" (as in it looks like it shoud have come out at least 4-5 years ago) compared to some of the new Euro/Japanese stuff, this maybe a good thing when you look at the newer BMWs lol but does not say much really for the design team at Holden. Dont get me wrong this is a good looking car and a nice jump forward over VZ but I feel that its already behind the eight ball.

As sorry as i am to say this, im afraid i have to agree with you on the looks.
I was hoping for something a bit more cutting edge as they had a great chance with a clean sheet, but after looking at a few in person, i dont think the years are going to be kind to the VE.
As you said it already looks a few years old compared to alot of the new vehicles like BMW, Audi and Mazda that have been around for a while.
This basic shape will be locked in for a few years now, and by then others will have moved on and left the VE looking like a VZ does now against the VE.
Its only my opinion, and i think overall they have done a great job engineering wise, but the styling just doesnt grab me. There are too many rounded shapes, and nothing (except the front guards) that really stands out.
Not enough crisp edges and lines, and i few non Holden, not Ford, people ive shown them to, have mostly thought it was a bit boring and dated.
You only have to look at the direction Opel is going in the new Astra's, especially the coupe, to see where im coming from.
Ill probably get flamed, and like i said, its only my opinion, but ive been biting my tongue till i saw them. Now i think they just look a little bit frumpy. :hide:
Im curious to see what Mike Simcoe does for the US versions of this car, because i reckon the yanks will want something more radical and sharp.

[clubbie]

yeh i remember something about that, but I also remember the distinct lack of strip times backing it up by owners of the same car.. to the extent there was a lot of questionability regarding the magazines car and its apparent 'stockness'..

and ur right about the timing beams etc, that extra 30cm of head start should shave 0.2-0.4 from the ET

My point exactly..Im sure a Phoon can run high 12's at the track and so can a GTO but take them into the real world and it just aint so.

And you are right that car was never able to achieve the times again in any other comparo (was a long term loan if I remember correctly). Don't remember the question of "stockness" (could be selective memory) but it does tell the story that 1/4 times will always be quicker (especially at night).

Clubbie

[Carby]

Im curious to see what Mike Simcoe does for the US versions of this car, because i reckon the yanks will want something more radical and sharp.

As far as good looking 4 door sedans are concerned when is the last time the Yanks had a decent looking one? 57 Chev?

As a matter of fact I'd say that the only good looking Yank cars are mostly confined to the Corvettes, Mustangs, Comaro's and Vipers - and even then not all models.

Trouble is if you get too adventurous with the looks you could end up with a AU. The VE has a generational gap on the VZ and is a modern contemporary design that will carry it for the next 6 years. Being cutting edge often means being too "out there" a risk that Holden did well to avoid in my opinion.:cool:

[nang3]

My point exactly..Im sure a Phoon can run high 12's at the track and so can a GTO but take them into the real world and it just aint so.

And you are right that car was never able to achieve the times again in any other comparo (was a long term loan if I remember correctly). Don't remember the question of "stockness" (could be selective memory) but it does tell the story that 1/4 times will always be quicker (especially at night).

Clubbie

nah i meant that no other stock GTO owners were getting ~12.9's out of their cars like the magazine did... well not from my beer soaked memory anyway... so thats why a few people and mags etc were questioning the stockness of the original 12.9 GTO

Phoon owners are consistently getting faster speeds than the mags which is probably partially due to the rollout on the track and cooler night air like you said..
IMO in the real world the phoons perform even better than the strip due to their ingear/roll-on acceleration from the bottom end torque...

either way i almost cant wait til trade-in time in a few years, should be a very nice choice in cars around !!

[seldo]

Just read some comments that make me laugh in this thread. Good value.
:lmao: me too....


.....Something that really concerns me is that Mercedes have the CLS which looks like an AU and everybody raves about the looks of the CLS. Take a look at the rear 3/4 looks all AU. Look at the front 3/4 Au all over it. Side profile very similar. ......
:lmao: In yer dreams champ...:lol:

[Wezza]

Ford have definitely taken a step backwards in terms of styling. BA & BF were easily a better looking car. Whats with those headlights? Oh well, not all that long to go until Orion for the Ford fans anyway.

[VZSS250]

The VE is where styling was at in 2003. Holden were simply to slow in getting this car out. 3 years ago it would have been cutting edge, but in 2006, cars have moved on from clean, flat panels and boring headlights. Even the bulging guards have been on the Mazda 6 for a few years. If a Mazda 6 beats you to a styling benchmark, you know you're in trouble.

Although BFII is a big loser, Orion doesn't need to try hard to knock over VE.

[HSVMAN]

The VE is where styling was at in 2003. Holden were simply to slow in getting this car out. 3 years ago it would have been cutting edge, but in 2006, cars have moved on from clean, flat panels and boring headlights. Even the bulging guards have been on the Mazda 6 for a few years. If a Mazda 6 beats you to a styling benchmark, you know you're in trouble.

Although BFII is a big loser, Orion doesn't need to try hard to knock over VE.

Maybe you should go offer your expertise to Holden then as they certainly dont know what they are doing :lol: You could have saved them a cool billion :rolleyes:

[pah]

who cares if the falcon is better in 11 ways. it still has a ford badge.
im sure holden could come up with a list of 100 ways it is better then a ford.


Hi JMK,

I've gotta chuck in my 2 cents worth here. If Ford make a better car, BUY IT!! Nothing drives competition harder than losing market share. Only dogs offer unconditional loyalty.

The Holden and Ford sales brochures and their fierce guarding of V8 Supercars shows how much they want one-eyed fans.

Be a DISCERNING buyer. Evaluate ALL of the options. Buy the car that will give you the best run for your money taking into account quality ratings, running costs and resale value. In fact, I think it's fair to say that resale value is a fair indicator of a car's quality. I know that Hondas and Camrys etc are now even more popular as a result of high petrol prices, but they've always had good resale and that's at least in part due to their reputation as well made cars.

NO! I am not advocating the purchase of a Camry - I don't like front wheel drive and I DON'T like Toyota dictating front wheel drive to most of it's car customers. If front wheel drive is such a good thing, let them fit it to their F1cars and rally cars.

I plan to check all of the options next time, taking into consideration fuel economy, performance AND RESALE value after 3 years. And that may rule out both the Ford and Holden offerings.




PAH

[VX11SS]

Hi JMK,

I've gotta chuck in my 2 cents worth here. If Ford make a better car, BUY IT!! Nothing drives competition harder than losing market share. Only dogs offer unconditional loyalty.

The Holden and Ford sales brochures and their fierce guarding of V8 Supercars shows how much they want one-eyed fans.

Be a DISCERNING buyer. Evaluate ALL of the options. Buy the car that will give you the best run for your money taking into account quality ratings, running costs and resale value. In fact, I think it's fair to say that resale value is a fair indicator of a car's quality. I know that Hondas and Camrys etc are now even more popular as a result of high petrol prices, but they've always had good resale and that's at least in part due to their reputation as well made cars.

NO! I am not advocating the purchase of a Camry - I don't like front wheel drive and I DON'T like Toyota dictating front wheel drive to most of it's car customers. If front wheel drive is such a good thing, let them fit it to their F1cars and rally cars.

I plan to check all of the options next time, taking into consideration fuel economy, performance AND RESALE value after 3 years. And that may rule out both the Ford and Holden offerings.




PAH
Nicely put Pah, only one thing I disagree with is re Toyota and front wheel drive - surely this is an Ozzie/regional thing as in Japan there are quite a few rear wheel drive Toyotas - some that are quite tasty looking too!!. It may be that Toyota head office does not want to sell them elsewhere OR that the respective regional offices are to gutless to have go and try some of the Japanese home market offerings. This applies to Nissan as well, they have the Skyline range which may be an aqquired taste but are a big improvement over Maxima etc.

Cheers

[kayman]

i think it probably has something to do with the lexus brand taking all the RWD vehicles.

[McobraR]

seems like everyone here is talkin crap again as they were when the spy shots of the VE were seen. Wait till you see the car in the flesh I say. The BFII supposedly looks alot better than those pics. I for one have gotten used to the pics since ive imagined it in the flesh.

[Wezza]

Yeah maybe you're right. I actually don't think it's the headlights that look bad anymore. I think the front is just a bit too cluttered looking with weird angles etc etc. But, i'll wait til i see it in the flesh to pass a final judgement.

[vecommo]

theres no denying what the Falcon has underneath its skin. Its still the benchmark in Aussie cars!
Maybe in your opinion it is, but don't come here shoving your opinions in our faces as if they are facts.

[McobraR]

Maybe in your opinion it is, but don't come here shoving your opinions in our faces as if they are facts.

Dont know what your trying to say vecommo but i believe what payaya is saying is true. The falcon is the benchmark... why? cus its won so many awards and comparisons since the BA. It basically is the best family sedan thats out there NOW, and im pretty sure holden used the falcon as a benchmark for its VE. Once the VE is released tho, im pretty sure that will be the next benchmark for all aussie cars to follow.

[BossV8]

Maybe in your opinion it is, but don't come here shoving your opinions in our faces as if they are facts.


I've read his posts and there was no "shoving in faces" as you put it, in fact he has praised the VE

Maybe you should stop taking every post with the word "Ford" as an attack on Holden and grow the hell up. We're all here for mature discussion and i come here to see how the GM's going as I have an interest as a car fan. Check your post listing pal, and quit with the BS :yup:

[BossV8]

Maybe in your opinion it is, but don't come here shoving your opinions in our faces as if they are facts.


I've read his posts and there was no "shoving in faces" as you put it, in fact he has praised the VE

Maybe you should stop taking every post with the word "Ford" as an attack on Holden and grow the hell up. We're all here for mature discussion and i come here to see how the GM's going as I have an interest as a car fan. Check your post listing pal, and quit with the BS :yup:

[vecommo]

Dont know what your trying to say vecommo but i believe what payaya is saying is true. The falcon is the benchmark... why? cus its won so many awards and comparisons since the BA. It basically is the best family sedan thats out there NOW, and im pretty sure holden used the falcon as a benchmark for its VE. Once the VE is released tho, im pretty sure that will be the next benchmark for all aussie cars to follow.

The way I interpereted what he said is that the VE is out now but the Falcon is still the benchmark. The reason I objected to is that he made it sound as if he was stating a fact, when in fact it is only his opinion. No offence intended.

[Knight Phlier]

Why is it that the Commodore is the highest selling car yet the Falcon is regarded as the benchmark to so many? If the Commodore was so crap like the motoring journos write it off as, why have Holden been so successful in beating all the competition as the highest selling car?
I'm not dissing the Falcon as it is a great product, just like the now 'old' generation Commodore, but what I am always skeptical of is a motoring journalists view on a car...Especially if it is coming from a PBL owned company!

[JEM]

Why is it that the Commodore is the highest selling car yet the Falcon is regarded as the benchmark to so many? If the Commodore was so crap like the motoring journos write it off as, why have Holden been so successful in beating all the competition as the highest selling car?
I'm not dissing the Falcon as it is a great product, just like the now 'old' generation Commodore, but what I am always skeptical of is a motoring journalists view on a car...Especially if it is coming from a PBL owned company!

Holden and Ford's primary focus is the fleet market. Holden's local sales accounted for roughtly 80% of their production. With a much higher daily production capacity out of Holden's manufacturing plant, it's not hard to see how they are able to provide more cars. ie sales.

[BadMac]

Holden and Ford's primary focus is the fleet market. Holden's local sales accounted for roughtly 80% of their production. With a much higher daily production capacity out of Holden's manufacturing plant, it's not hard to see how they are able to provide more cars. ie sales.

Its nothing to do with production.
Build the car people want and they will buy (or convince them via marketing).

Then sales will drive capacity. Something Ford just doesn't seem to understand. They have been the bridemade for 10 years. The last 4 when they had (subjectively) a superior product.

The real test is the next 12 months, in a shrinking market will the current trend to Ford be sustained or will the VE retake the lead (proving that the current Ford/FPV upswing was due to runout and people holding off for VE).

For my part the BF2 is a step backwards, the XR range being left alone was good from the perspective of not stuffing it up, problem is its now 4 years old and still untouched, ie good that the design has lasted, but looking very old now. It will be an interesting 18months and I look forward to seeing what Ford can produce in light of what may be a weaker market, with strong competition from VE, Toyota and the Euros. Better be a strong business case as it will go under the microscope many times.

[Dilan]

Why is it that the Commodore is the highest selling car yet the Falcon is regarded as the benchmark to so many? If the Commodore was so crap like the motoring journos write it off as, why have Holden been so successful in beating all the competition as the highest selling car?

Corolla outsells the Falcon andCommodore, so with your logic a Corolla is a better car. :weirdo:

[RICHO]

Commodore Outsells Falcon Because:

Holden puts more money time and effort into its Fleet marketing and fleet details. When it wins fleets it tends to keep them by offering very competitive pricing and being (generally) responsive to client needs. They are MUCH better at this than Ford and do throw more money at fleet deals.

They have to do this!! The cost of an idle plant is incredible...it is cheaper to have a car leave the plant at $0 effective margin to a fleet than have the plant idle for that period. Plant utilisation is paramount!!

Am not going to argue about which car is better (don't care), but Holden makes it very hard for fleets to choose an alternative through some big $$ marketing and aggressive fleet pricing. This ensures they protect the majority of their volume.

Speaking of which does anybody have a breakdown of Commodore V Falcon private (non fleet sales), perhaps this would provide a better indicator "popularity"??

[Carby]

Commodore Outsells Falcon Because:


Speaking of which does anybody have a breakdown of Commodore V Falcon private (non fleet sales), perhaps this would provide a better indicator "popularity"??


I doubt that would be of much use. Most companies offer Novated leases and even company cars are provided at different levels but generally cover the same type of vehicle eg 380, Falcon, Commodore etc. Given that these Company people are given a choice, it still makes the Commodore the most popular.

[kart_racer]

Holden and Ford's primary focus is the fleet market. Holden's local sales accounted for roughtly 80% of their production. With a much higher daily production capacity out of Holden's manufacturing plant, it's not hard to see how they are able to provide more cars. ie sales.

Denny Mooney said in a statement that they want to concentrate more on private sales as they have a much bigger margin that way.
Also I think exports are now a big focus for Holden, as Denny has conceded that he doesn't think the Australian large car market is going to grow again any time soon.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=19283&vf=2

[JEM]

Its nothing to do with production.
Build the car people want and they will buy (or convince them via marketing).

Then sales will drive capacity. Something Ford just doesn't seem to understand. They have been the bridemade for 10 years. The last 4 when they had (subjectively) a superior product.

The real test is the next 12 months, in a shrinking market will the current trend to Ford be sustained or will the VE retake the lead (proving that the current Ford/FPV upswing was due to runout and people holding off for VE).

For my part the BF2 is a step backwards, the XR range being left alone was good from the perspective of not stuffing it up, problem is its now 4 years old and still untouched, ie good that the design has lasted, but looking very old now. It will be an interesting 18months and I look forward to seeing what Ford can produce in light of what may be a weaker market, with strong competition from VE, Toyota and the Euros. Better be a strong business case as it will go under the microscope many times.

It's got everything to do with production and catering your product for fleets.

Holden can build 800 commodores a day, Ford can push ~500-600 cars down their line, and now they have Territory to push down too...

The sales strategies have been different, Ford have been able to generate higher margins by delivering more volume into the private segment, while Holden now want to do this also.

As long as Holden have the higher production capacity and can keep the majority of their fleet contracts, they will move more cars, but that doesn't equal more profit, and that's why i believe Ford won't strive to be the highest in sales volume, it's not necessarily where the money is.

[RICHO]

I doubt that would be of much use. Most companies offer Novated leases and even company cars are provided at different levels but generally cover the same type of vehicle eg 380, Falcon, Commodore etc. Given that these Company people are given a choice, it still makes the Commodore the most popular.

Definitely a valid point...

But even when you consider "user choosers", these decisions will be based at least in part on how much of a fleet discount a company / fleet manager has been able top negotiate with a given manufacturer. And again, Holden manage this space far more effectively than Ford do, almost to the point that it would be stupid not to "choose" a Holden if the option exists.

Move away from salary sacrifice / fleet arrangements however and much of the articifical buying power of fleets is removed, private purchasers rely far more on their own ability to negotiate price and as a private buyer, the differences between companies are far less significant. In this more level playing field, who sells the most?? Because it is this market segment that drives profits....

For example....

Toyota sell huge volumes to fleets and made what only about a $55m profit for the year to March 06, i.e. big marketing and incentive spend!!
Holden have traditionally pushed fleet business very effectively and recorded an 05 profit of, their profit on a volume basis is much better than Toyota's but less than Ford's why because the spend more on marketing and incentives (and because they can afford it, and understand the very simple concept that you need to spend money to make money)
Ford either don't have the money to spend, or don't do it very well. Yet I suspect that their per unit profit would be higher than Holden's...

[Venom XR]

For example....

Toyota sell huge volumes to fleets and made what only about a $55m profit for the year to March 06, i.e. big marketing and incentive spend!!

I think it's more about creative accounting than low margins and big expenses. Wasn't there going to be an investigation in Toyota funnelling profits back to Japan to avoid paying taxes here?

[HSVMAN]

.....
Toyota sell huge volumes to fleets and made what only about a $55m profit for the year to March 06, i.e. big marketing and incentive spend!!
Holden have traditionally pushed fleet business very effectively and recorded an 05 profit of, their profit on a volume basis is much better than Toyota's but less than Ford's why because the spend more on marketing and incentives (and because they can afford it, and understand the very simple concept that you need to spend money to make money)
Ford either don't have the money to spend, or don't do it very well. Yet I suspect that their per unit profit would be higher than Holden's...

Going off subject a bit here but I know this is an interesting and much debated, ill informed point.

Where does the propaganda about "Holden are better with Fleets" come from?

That is one of Ford's biggest cop-outs to give their beloved more hope and security.
Sorry to wake up the disillusioned among you but that is complete crap!
I work in Fleet every day and talk to people on both sides of the Tasman every day. I know Fleet Sales people in Ford, I know how they price for fleets and I know what those prices are. Ford have thrown away profits in an effort to compete, particularly with BA. Absolutely truckloads of $$$$ down the gurgler massively discounting the hell out of the Falcon.
Now, with BF they are going to smile a little smile of relief.......or are they? Holden discounts have reduced dramatically. But they can afford to.
Brand new model, excellent residual values etc. BF is not going to be seen as a new model as perceived by the public or Fleet (except for the deeply religous) apart from some people noticing something strange in the look of Fairmont.
So..... there is no advantage and has not been one of any signifigance, period :) Until now........

[RICHO]

Going off subject a bit here but I know this is an interesting and much debated, ill informed point.

Where does the propaganda about "Holden are better with Fleets" come from?

......

I don't know that propoganda is entirely accurate.

My thoughts on this come from a prior life (not so distant) when i sat in a desk at business on Sydney Rd in Campbellfied.

Holden ARE better with fleets and I didn't mean to give the impression that it was only pricing driven, they manage relationships better and create enduring and longer term relationships with customers. Breaking such relationships is bloody hard...and takes big $$$ commitments, commitments that Ford either hasn't been able to make and when it has they've been matched by Holden.

Ford fleets by comparison seemed to be one over by Holden with greater ease through a combination of better relationship management and $$$. It's the combination of the two that has made them so successful.

Hope that clarifies my comments a little....

As for now.....It's an interesting position, Holden's fleet prices are up and I suspect that there are reasons for that beyond recouping VE development costs. Pure speculation now, but it makes me wonder whether No.1 in Aust means that much to Holden or whether profit and contribution to global GM business is the priority. Either way, I suspect that with VE Holden's production capacity will be fully utilised with or without fleet sales. The cars will simply have alternate destinations.....

[Redhot_57]

I just love all this desperate, catty stuff that comes out the week of a major car launch. Kind of like a federal election..

I think Ford ought to re-check its info before it makes such claims...

1. By all accounts, VE Commodore WILL perform better than BF Falcon.

2. VE is larger and heavier than its predecessor. Yeah, but much
stronger too, and its still lighter than an equivalent BF.

3. VE DOES offer a duel fuel LPG option. And unlike the e-gas slugger,
power drop over petrol model is 5kw, not 35!!

4. Falcon has 8ltr more boot space?? Yeah, so what.


The BF is a good, solid car, but lets get serious, its a mostly unchanged 4 year old car. In other words, VY equivalent technology and design.

Is that the best you can do Ford??..

[lowriding]

Yeah its all a suss at the moment. Ford have tried to come out swinging , as they would (they have even recruited some posters on here :p ).Unfortunately they are throwing some very ordinary haymakers for the minute .
ps go and check out drive.com.au - everytime you open any VE news story there is a falcon ad on the right hand side- everytime !!But open any other non VE related story and its not there .Total set-up.Dont think i didnt notice Drive/Ford :teach:

[Road Warrior]

Either way, I suspect that with VE Holden's production capacity will be fully utilised with or without fleet sales. The cars will simply have alternate destinations.....

BING!! :idea:

Fleet sales will still be important...just with assured markets elsewhere fleet sales wont be as important as they used to be...

[HSVMAN]

Hope that clarifies my comments a little....

As for now.....It's an interesting position, Holden's fleet prices are up and I suspect that there are reasons for that beyond recouping VE development costs. Pure speculation now, but it makes me wonder whether No.1 in Aust means that much to Holden or whether profit and contribution to global GM business is the priority. Either way, I suspect that with VE Holden's production capacity will be fully utilised with or without fleet sales. The cars will simply have alternate destinations.....

I could divulge the real reasons for Holden's new pricing and how it works, including the wiping of dealer incentives, but the mods may think its too far off this thread....

[VX11SS]

I could divulge the real reasons for Holden's new pricing and how it works, including the wiping of dealer incentives, but the mods may think its too far off this thread....

The real reasons being Holden and Ford resale values are crap due to too much discounting to fleet purchasers, petrol cost is also a slight factor in this but the major reason would be Holden and Fords chase of the Fleet market leaving even the Fleet guys bewildered at the deals being done and the fact that they can no longer predict reasonably what these vehicles are going to be worth in 2-3 years.
The rental companies are in the same boat, they do not all lease their vehicles, some do purchase outright and would be having a very hard time with the market at the moment.
I think the word is out!! Holden and Ford have done this to themselves in a shrinking market for full size sedans - not just due to petrol but suv/sav vehicles also taking a large part of their sales - the big ozzie sedan is no longer the must have vehicle, hence Territory and holdens Captiva - these vehicles SHOULD have been on the market 4-5 years ago.
The writing has been on the wall for some time now.
Unfortuately just as they get their acts together the popularity of suvs is on the wane so whats next??
Get on with Torana, make it mid sized with a V6/V6 turbo option, offer 4 and 5 door hatch versions and maybe - maybe a 4 wd version as well.

[nickh]

i to have worked in Holden fleet managerment and believe it or not at Ford in fleet managerment.The two are worlds apart in how the deal with these clients.

To be honest the core part of most of the fleet sales for Holden (well at the time and were i was) were with the major Fleet companies eg Custom fleet were writing more than 60-70 new car orders a month with another -30-45 being writen up via "companies that fell into the guidelines of SME arranagements" When you add retail sales figure of another 30-45 cars a month it was a pretty good Holden dealership

Now we always worked hard to leave some gross in the deals eg not often going into FPA and HB however we rarely won alot of the incremental business because the fleet manager believed it was always about customer service (Which i agree)

Yet with the pressure to achive targets and sales figure made alot of fleet managers shit them selves and just guts the cars .I mean gees we can all sell cars when you leave $500 in a deal which needs to includes a PD.. ( I have seen this happen in a tendering process )

Now i personally believe its the Fleet managers role to know when to say enough is enough yet over the last few years its almost as the fleet companies are calling the shots which isnt the way it should be.

And now the damage is done. (Which if you think about it this way when VY Series 2 came out it was a $33-35k vehicle drive awaythats fleet pricing. Now with VZ retail ppl could get a VZ with a pack for $32990 drive away without even hanggling?) think about the damage that in its self is going to cause. The process has started and its going to be very hard for Holden to regain that power but also rebuild the resale value of commodore.

[demoniquekryes]

Who cares about the new falcon, its the aurion that people should be worried about....the possibilties you have with doin sh!t to that thing!!! woah....

only downside is, its toyata, and a 6.....should be an 8

[kayman]

Who cares about the new falcon, its the aurion that people should be worried about....the possibilties you have with doin sh!t to that thing!!! woah....

only downside is, its toyata, and a 6.....should be an 8

u forgot FWD!

[demoniquekryes]

well yes, and FWD....but im sure toyota will prolly put RWD version in coming year....

But it looks good, ill give em that

[Dacious]

well yes, and FWD....but im sure toyota will prolly put RWD version in coming year....

But it looks good, ill give em that

It looks like a pus bucket. If the Avalon, which at least had a bigger floorpan with more space between the wheels and more room inside didn't sell, I don't understand why Toyota thinks the Aurion which is a Camry with a bigger boot and nose will. Even if the motors put out comparable power, that will simply make the FWD vices worse - it will torquesteer like a mongrel and be prone to spinning the fronts in corners or on uphills. That will require torque-limiting and extra T/C which will kill the performance. It will wear it's front tyres out even faster than the Camry.

RWD Aurion - what are you sniffing? You can't take a FWD chassis and turn it into RWD, and Toyota Oz has no facility to build a new chassis in Altona in their plant, let alone a design for such a car. if Toyota in Europe and the US has no RWD car what makes you think our little market down here will?

Methinks school holidays have started early. :goodtime:

[JNP304]

Avalon drive and youll probably be sitting in a taxi...thats what they did with all the ones they couldnt move!
Aurion looks a lot better than Avalon, but simular concept. 380 is not selling well, why should Aurion be any different?

[Pickles]

Saw the "revised" front of the "updated" Falcon today, & it is CRAP. If that's the best they could do, Ford would have been better off leaving it alone. Sure, they've got a 6 speed auto across the range, but it'll take a lot more than that to counter VE. As I've said before, Ford will be very very worried at the moment. Look at the sales figures in 3-4 months, then you'll see whether I was right or wrong!
Cheers, Pickles.

[HSVMAN]

Saw the "revised" front of the "updated" Falcon today, & it is CRAP. If that's the best they could do, Ford would have been better off leaving it alone. Sure, they've got a 6 speed auto across the range, but it'll take a lot more than that to counter VE. As I've said before, Ford will be very very worried at the moment. Look at the sales figures in 3-4 months, then you'll see whether I was right or wrong!
Cheers, Pickles.

True! If they are discounting the BF XR6 by 33% (in NZ) for lease companies - just to compete with run-out SV6 - how the hell are they going to compete with that ugly MF? :doh:

[Knight Phlier]

Corolla outsells the Falcon andCommodore, so with your logic a Corolla is a better car. :weirdo:

AFAIK it has only been the last couple of months that Corolla has been the highest selling car. For the last 50-60 months prior to that Commodore has been the leader for about 90-95% of the time.
Corolla is a different category of car, it isn't the same category as Falcon / Commodore / Camry or Magna. So with regards to your logic I think you should re-read the post as you have missed the point.

[Dacious]

In fact it was only one month - July. The Corolla had sold pretty consistent numbers at around the 5-6K mark all year, it's gone up slightly due to runout deals. Commodores are down from 5,000 last year to 4,000 this July. Corolla's outsold Falcon two months in a row, and that is more of a worry for Ford as they don't have a new model in the wings (or didn't until they sprung BF II).

But Camrys, also in runout mode, are down from 5,000 to 1,000 in July. Why have the automotive journos not twigged to that one? It's the same reason Commodore sales are down, but it doesn't make as good a copy.

The month before VT was intro'd the Hyundai Excel outsold VS (and the Corolla) so this is nothing new - even the 'schlock headline' were the same. 'King Commodore is dead - long live the king!'

[McobraR]

all i can say is anyone thinking sales figures determines the better car is either just stupid or biased.

[BOF crewman X8]

all i can say is anyone thinking sales figures determines the better car is either just stupid or biased.

AMEN!.....

[Evil LS1]

Avalon drive and youll probably be sitting in a taxi...thats what they did with all the ones they couldnt move!
Aurion looks a lot better than Avalon, but simular concept. 380 is not selling well, why should Aurion be any different?

I think 380 is struggling because many don't believe Mitsubishi won't fold. If they changed the front and back of the car it would actually look ok. Still Toyota and Mitsu don't get it; we don't want cars this size with FWD. Imagine the supercharged Aurion with 240kW and 400Nm through the front wheels. Forget it.

[payaya]

I just love all this desperate, catty stuff that comes out the week of a major car launch. Kind of like a federal election..

I think Ford ought to re-check its info before it makes such claims...

1. By all accounts, VE Commodore WILL perform better than BF Falcon.

2. VE is larger and heavier than its predecessor. Yeah, but much
stronger too, and its still lighter than an equivalent BF.

3. VE DOES offer a duel fuel LPG option. And unlike the e-gas slugger,
power drop over petrol model is 5kw, not 35!!

4. Falcon has 8ltr more boot space?? Yeah, so what.


The BF is a good, solid car, but lets get serious, its a mostly unchanged 4 year old car. In other words, VY equivalent technology and design.

Is that the best you can do Ford??..

VY equivalent???

BF was way ahead of VY no one can deny that, if anything the VE has caught up with BF!!

Which part of the VE is techically ahead of BF?? please tell me.

[Venom XR]

VY's still had 26 year old rear IRS (though with one 'control link' added on)

[kart_racer]

Which part of the VE is techically ahead of BF?? please tell me.

The car...

[Carby650]

VY equivalent???

BF was way ahead of VY no one can deny that, if anything the VE has caught up with BF!!

Which part of the VE is techically ahead of BF?? please tell me.

Maybe this arguement will be solved next month. Motor are doing a VE v BF so I'll leave it up to them to decide.

[BadMac]

VY equivalent???

BF was way ahead of VY no one can deny that, if anything the VE has caught up with BF!!

Which part of the VE is techically ahead of BF?? please tell me.

I know you said technical but technically all of these things are different.

VE Ahead.
ESP standard across range
V8 engines
Wheel sizes
Seats
Pricing (RRP)
Weight
4 Speed auto
5 Speed manual
0-100 and 1/4 mile.
Body strength
Passenger Safety (based on availability of curtain airbags).
Weight distribution (and hence probably handling).
Standard Sound system.

BF Ahead
Fuel Economy
Turbo 6
Air cond standard across range.
Spare tyre
XR Front end (Subjective, but at present I like it, yet to see a VE in the flesh).
Auto gear selector (the Ford one is very nice, very BMW 5 series looking)

Equal or seperated by religious perspective
6 Speed Autos
6 Speed Manuals
6 Cylinder engines
Dash and instrument package (subjective)
Suspension
Body shape
Rear seat configuration (split or ski hatch, I prefer the ski hatch, if I wanted more boot room i'd get a Terri!).

There are probably more, others may wish to add, the faithful may wish to debate, but as its my opinion I don't care.

Now once again back to the point of the thread, the BF2 and in particular the Force 6 and Force 8.

I remember a few posters saying the Force x would kick VE's butt. It would be good to know why that is. I have seen the specs and if thats Fords answer then the 25% production cutback and 30,000 redundancies announced in US is only the start.

[ls2maloo]

I was also wondering if the typhoon was a red one cause I'm sure that would have helped it's 1/4 mile time. FORD=TAXI

[HRT Stroker]

Settle boys, we get lots of whinging about the Ford boys bagging Holden here.......

Lead by example.

[payaya]

I know you said technical but technically all of these things are different.

VE Ahead.
ESP standard across range
V8 engines
Wheel sizes
Seats
Pricing (RRP)
Weight
4 Speed auto
5 Speed manual
0-100 and 1/4 mile.
Body strength
Passenger Safety (based on availability of curtain airbags).
Weight distribution (and hence probably handling).
Standard Sound system.

BF Ahead
Fuel Economy
Turbo 6
Air cond standard across range.
Spare tyre
XR Front end (Subjective, but at present I like it, yet to see a VE in the flesh).
Auto gear selector (the Ford one is very nice, very BMW 5 series looking)

Equal or seperated by religious perspective
6 Speed Autos
6 Speed Manuals
6 Cylinder engines
Dash and instrument package (subjective)
Suspension
Body shape
Rear seat configuration (split or ski hatch, I prefer the ski hatch, if I wanted more boot room i'd get a Terri!).

There are probably more, others may wish to add, the faithful may wish to debate, but as its my opinion I don't care.

Now once again back to the point of the thread, the BF2 and in particular the Force 6 and Force 8.

I remember a few posters saying the Force x would kick VE's butt. It would be good to know why that is. I have seen the specs and if thats Fords answer then the 25% production cutback and 30,000 redundancies announced in US is only the start.

ESP standard across range - Agree
V8 engines - Ford run DOHC
Wheel sizes - Agree
Seats - Sould be better
Pricing (RRP) - Ford is cheaper
Weight - Agree
4 Speed auto - Ford 4 speed is miles ahead
5 Speed manual - Agree, but 6 speed should be compared and the BF is better
0-100 and 1/4 mile. - LS1 true, but 6 Cylinders, Ford ahead
Body strength - Dont know
Passenger Safety (based on availability of curtain airbags).
Weight distribution (and hence probably handling).
Standard Sound system.

Dont get me wrong but I like the VE, technically its a very big evolution and its the first time i dont mind the commodore. I never likes the previous commodores because of dated technology in it.

[VYII_R8]

I know you said technical but technically all of these things are different.

VE Ahead.
ESP standard across range - this is not "technologically" superior to the Falcon

V8 engines - More powerful 5.7L vs 5.4L - LS1 is not "technologically" superior to Boss engines in any aspect. More cubes, more powerful generally.

Wheel sizes - Again not "technologically" superior...

Seats - debatable...

Pricing (RRP) - not technological at all...

Weight - not technological (unless VE uses special materials [which it doesn't I don't think??])

4 Speed auto - You write this is where VE is ahead?? This is the most criticised 4 speed auto in Australian history!!

5 Speed manual - How does this make the VE "ahead"? Anyway, only 6 speed manuals are on offer these days..

0-100 and 1/4 mile - BF F6 auto holds this title.

Body strength - How can you say the VE is stronger than the BF chassis?? Do you have any empirical data to support this? Or are you just going on "The VE chassis is X% stiffer than the VZ chassis"??

Passenger Safety (based on availability of curtain airbags) - I half agree with you here... Again, we need empircal data from ANCAP etc etc.

Weight distribution (and hence probably handling). - Where has the VE weight distribution been listed? (I'm not doubting it, just wondering)

Standard Sound system. - Not sure....



Don't get me wrong.... I am a Holden man through and through... but I have to be honest, the Commodore has been behind the Falcon *technologically* since the BA. With the VE I hope they have it nailed.

Ford have HAD to be technologically superior up until now as the AU sure as hell wasn't going to sell based on it's looks!! Holden have never HAD to catch-up technologically until the BA as they had (and still pretty much have) the sales lead! Why spend money on development when you already have the market lead?? It unnecessarily eats into profits! It doesn't make business sense!

[JEM]

VE Ahead.
ESP standard across range - That's more of a specification difference. Both use Bosch 8 systems.
V8 engines - Apart from the DOHC arguement, i believe the BOSS has a better specific power ration?
Wheel sizes - Specification rather than technological. Where we could suggest an advantage is in VE's tyres. They've gone for a better tyre that improves fuel efficiency and on road performance.
Seats - Made by the same company - Futuris. Subjective, not technological.
Pricing (RRP) - Don't know about that, BF2 pricing is unknown.
Weight - Not that much of a difference if at all.
4 Speed auto - Extremely debatable. Fords 4spd has usually been the much better performer, and has come in for further improvements for BF2.
5 Speed manual - Do ford even offer the 5spd anymore?
0-100 and 1/4 mile. - Definately not in the 6 category. And for the 8's.. if you want to believe Holden's numbers.
Body strength - What makes you think this? Holden's marketing??? If compared to VZ, then you would be correct. To suggest it's stiffer than BF etc would not be correct as there hasn't been any comparitive data in the public. But what i can tell you on this is... Holden stated in one of the vids that they have achieved a certain frequency for body shell response, what they fail to mention is in what mode... I know for a fact that VE is comparable in torsional frequency response to BF. There is nothing between them.
Passenger Safety (based on availability of curtain airbags). - Agreed, simply because VE has re-engineered A pillars that accommodate them. Crash performance is another thing though.
Weight distribution (and hence probably handling). - Only with a particular driveline option i believe?? I think it's the V8.
Standard Sound system.
I will also add for VE...
Better front suspension setup now. Makes use of full subframe setup and pivot/ball joint setup.
Front body module is a good idea... but wait for Orion to see what they've done. ;)


BF Ahead

More experience in advanced IRS systems and calibration.
More experience and development in rear crash.
Earlier introduction of energy load paths.
Exposure to certain technologies before VE program, ie, bosch8 program.

Fuel Economy
Turbo 6
Air cond standard across range.
Spare tyre
XR Front end (Subjective, but at present I like it, yet to see a VE in the flesh).
Auto gear selector (the Ford one is very nice, very BMW 5 series looking)

Equal or seperated by religious perspective
6 Speed Autos
6 Speed Manuals
6 Cylinder engines - I would definately add the Barra engine to the BF ahead section.
Dash and instrument package (subjective)
Suspension - Control blade probably a little better because of the tuning separate tuning ablitities, it's a very advanced system, also makes use of a longer decoupling arm which would give better ride compliance.
Body shape - VE probably slightly infront (ignoring some personal issues) due to some newer design themes, but BF is standing up very well against the test of time. Particularly the sports models.
Rear seat configuration (split or ski hatch, I prefer the ski hatch, if I wanted more boot room i'd get a Terri!).

There are probably more, others may wish to add, the faithful may wish to debate, but as its my opinion I don't care.


Now once again back to the point of the thread, the BF2 and in particular the Force 6 and Force 8.

I remember a few posters saying the Force x would kick VE's butt. It would be good to know why that is. I have seen the specs and if thats Fords answer then the 25% production cutback and 30,000 redundancies announced in US is only the start.

I think people have confused certain Ford model specs with the new Force 6/8 trademarks. There is very little information about these Force models.

What has the US got to do with this??? You should know that GM is in a spot of trouble also - moreso than Ford.