New Falcon announced tomorrow (10th)

[BadMac]

According to Carpoint.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1957859.aspx

Note LS1 is mentioned in the article. Boy this forum is becoming the place to create the news.

Also note the following (Thanks PaulST from FAF Forum):

FAIRMONT TURBO TIP
IN AN attempt to detract attention from Holden’s
VE Commodore market release next week,
Ford Australia is expected to divulge details
of its forthcoming BF Series II later this week
and GoAuto understands that a Fairmont Ghia
Turbo model variant, featuring the force-fed
245kW/480Nm 4.0-litre inline-six (as seen in the
XR6T sedan and Territory Turbo 4WD), will be
announced. The revised line-up is due to hit the
streets in October

[nathnrach]

thats hard to argue against isnt it... although i still wouldnt buy an aussie made car... ive seen some of the trade in models we get at work, like au and ba falcons and evenvy commodores... theyre very average condition and falling apart...

[XLR8 V8]

It's good that Holden have brought out something that has forced its competitors to improve their own lineup for their customers.
The list of 11 is a bit of a grab at straws though

[Freaky]

Ford are not stupid, for sure the VE raised the bar and Ford were going to counter. You could see they were going to offer the ZF across the entire range ages ago.

And what a great gearbox it is

[nathnrach]

it is a great gearbox isnt it...
wish i could suit one to fit my car almost... except its an auto...
very nice to drive, you can tell the relationship to luxury prestige marques like aston martin or whatever they use it in...
almost as good as the dsg available in vw/audi... dsg is unbelievable though...

[Road Warrior]

A turbo Fairmont Ghia...mate i'd seriously hit that sh1t:bow:

[jerrel]

who cares if the falcon is better in 11 ways. it still has a ford badge.
im sure holden could come up with a list of 100 ways it is better then a ford.

[SCiFiRE]

Fords Turbo I6 is a great donk and all... but i think they are gonna need to do more than just put it in every model they have.

[Marco]

And...it's still a warmed-over version of a car that is fundamentally eight years old with many parts dating back further than that.

Looks like it's going to be a contest between new and top-notch, and old but good value. Sounds like VT vs EL all over again.

[Ghosn]

I wouldnt worry too much about a Turbo Ghia. Just picture a black VE Calais V 6.0 V8 lowered on those 20s, mmmm, oh and those quad pipes :bow:

The choice is easy for me.

[Chris52]

It's good that Holden have brought out something that has forced its competitors to improve their own lineup for their customers.
The list of 11 is a bit of a grab at straws though

Some of those points are definitely clutching at straws, like 8 litres more boot space for crissake!! Big f#@%*: deal!! My rant over.

Cheers

Chris.

[Chris52]

And...it's still a warmed-over version of a car that is fundamentally eight years old with many parts dating back further than that.

Looks like it's going to be a contest between new and top-notch, and old but good value. Sounds like VT vs EL all over again.


And did'nt the EL break some sales records.................NOT!!:rofl:

Cheers

Chris.

[Souljah]

And...it's still a warmed-over version of a car that is fundamentally eight years old with many parts dating back further than that.

Looks like it's going to be a contest between new and top-notch, and old but good value. Sounds like VT vs EL all over again.
But the EL didn't have one hell of a motor such as the Turbo Barra 6. Holden only offer comparable performance from an V8 and in these fuel concious times people will choose a 6 over an 8 because to the average buyer figures that a 6 will use less than an 8 everytime. My 2c anyways :1peek:

[Desertraptor]

Gee 10.2 ltr per 100. I can get better than that with the LS1

Ford need 11 ways just to compete. They give away things that we have to pay extra for because no one was buying the Ford offerings.

[Carby650]

I think this is excellent news. Holden have just come out and announced probably the best aussie built car ever and Fraud have come back with a something to keep Holden on their toes. Remember though that the 6 speed auto is only an option on the base model. I have mentioned in one of the VE threads that people are getting very caught up in a numbers game at the moment. I hear for example that the 4 speed auto has different gearing. Does it make it better? I don't know but on a base model maybe its enough without needing to spend up on the 6 speed.
Handling. - The VE from all reports handles like no other aussie car ever. You can't really messure this and Fraud know it so they'll play the numbers game instead. They'll go for the "mines bigger then your's " and hope to win the game there. At the end of the day the only market where this will really have an impact is at the lower end and fleet market. Peeople who want a performace car generally will not look at the rivel company. When I bought my SS I didn't test drive a XR8. Why? Cause its a Fraud and I'm a Holden man. Most of us (but not all) are the same.

[Freaky]

Have just seen the leaked photos of the BFII on another forum.

No need to worry about the VE looking like a BA regarding the headlights, as they have changed for BFII. :lmao:

[BadMac]

Highlights include (see more pics on streetfords);

New front end on XT/Futura/Fairmont/Ghia
The ZF 6 speed auto is optional on XT/Futura/Fairmont
DSC optional on XT/Futura/Fairmont/XR6 (but only with ZF 6speed auto, Sports suspension and 17" wheels on XT/Futura/Fairmont)
NO CHANGE to XR exterior - new cloth trim only
NO mention of Turbo engine in Ghia in this dealer info
Ghia gets Fairlane interior with China Beige leather and Onyx Black centre stack
new 17" x 8" wheels on Ghia
Ghia badge is now block text style off Territory - Script Ghia badge gone
Exposed exhaust on Ghia
Bluetooth available from December
XT/Futura/Fairmont get revised rear bumper (sedan only)
XT/Futura/Fairmont front ends differ only in chrome detailing and headlights on XT (where again it shares dark bezel with Ghia)
5 new exterior colours

Ghia
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/Ghia04.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/Ghia02.jpg

and XT
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/XT01.jpg

[Ghosn]

Have just seen the leaked photos of the BFII on another forum.

No need to worry about the VE looking like a BA regarding the headlights, as they have changed for BFII. :lmao:

What were they thinking? I thought the idea is to make new models more attractive...

[Freaky]

What were they thinking? I thought the idea is to make new models more attractive...

I'm still undecided. Need to stare at it abit longer.

I still get the feeling it looks abit dated compared to the VE.

Although at least its not as bland as the BF.

[Desertraptor]

I made a point of asking the guys who drove the VE the 250kms from Pt Augusta what they drove like. Both said they are far better than anything else they have driven. 250km is a good drive to get to know a car

[BadMac]

I'll be the first to say it. It has made the BF look more like the AU and thats BAD. I hope it looks better in the flesh than these pics make it look.

Shame really as I was waiting for BF2 to decide between VE of BF and while I will wait to see and test drive it, its underwelming at present.

[Chris52]

I think BF II is short for BarF twice.:spew: :spew: :lmao:

Cheers

Chris.

[V8BRUTE]

I am not too sure on the nose of that, Holden pulled off squaring up the nose and tail for VY and kept the curvy VT middle bit but the Ford just doesn't seem to manage it to me, something about that AU centre bit and roof line :confused:

[kayman]

Hey it looks a bit like a VX with the teardrop sort of lights at the front, its also got a bit of a VZ bonnet with the chrome strip on it. And the Doors and mid section look AUish.

I dont like it, its too bland, i thought ford were going to bring out something with a bit of flair.

[Shane-o]

Hmmm, Let's see "Torana". Bet that would shut Ford up if it replaces Monaro. Of course they(Ford) would list some better points to counter new Holden VE, Be very stuuuuupid for a competitor if they didn't.
I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could list 5 points from a Hyundai Excel that is better than both Holden and Ford, Fuel economy there that's 1 already. :)


By the way, Holden if your reading this you have already sold 1 Torana if you build it, Don't talk about making it "DO IT" for series 2.

[CLUB_819]

hmm it may look better soon after I've seen it more but from the pics:

fog lights - vz berlina/calais
Front grill - mondeo
Front Bar - Terry

But looks dated and still reminds me of TAXI!

Cheers
Scotty

[Mules]

Looks more like the AU again. Lost some of the good points of what I liked about the BA-BF

[SS_Fury]

i think it looks ok, a tad bland if anything....the interior looks good, but i have never been a fan of their steering wheels, kinda bulky

[Louie]

Gee BF looked so nice, now they have gone backwards again.
Those lines up front & that bonnet now brings out the AU shell, where in the BA & BF it was well hidden in its smooth flowing design.

[ti0350]

I dont think Holden has to worry about it..
Something about it just doesnt sit right though, I think the BA & BF I front end looked better.. I'm waiting to see what the GT looks like my mate has a BA GT and it is a very nice car, the big downside to it is it has a ford badge on it..

[jaykay]

I wouldnt worry too much about a Turbo Ghia. Just picture a black VE Calais V 6.0 V8 lowered on those 20s, mmmm, oh and those quad pipes :bow:

The choice is easy for me.

:stupid:

No pun intended....

[PJK]

Ford are happy to gloat about having this ducks guts 6 speed BUT you can only have it with sports suspension and big wheels!! What's with that!!

Also can someone tell me how the Barra 190 is more advanced than the Alloytec V6?

One thing Ford does have over Holden is colour choice 15 vs 6 (XR vs SS/SV6)

[Aus8]

Also can someone tell me how the Barra 190 is more advanced than the Alloytec V6?


Take one for a drive mate back to back with a Alloytec and you wont need anyone else to tell you.

Aus8

[BadMac]

The interior is nice (except the steering wheel), probably better than the SSV one (the Calais V one is as good or better).
The AU look is coming from the bonnet which now seems to accentuate the AU lines of the roof/doors.

[X BC X]

wow, they had the chance to make some changes and be a thorn in the ve's side......


but fark, what a co*k up styling wise...... :spew: just lucky they havent changed the xr kit

i think the AU stylist must have come back from long service leave....

[lowriding]

Looks like a BA at front 380 at rear and/or an astra on steroids !?!?:) -couldnt help myself .

Unfortunately it looks terrible in those pictures imo.Really highlights how bland and dated the AU-BA shape is.There is a gulf starting to open between VE and Falcon i think

[Dacious]

Momma said, can't say anything nice..........

Can't say anything nice.

[monaroCountry1]

Really dont like the new look. What made the BA and BF great was its squared off look, much like the R34 and 33 skylines. The BF II looks confused - a mix of squared look (back), bubble look (mid) and aero look (front).

Hopefully its good enough to fend off the camry/Aurion.

[lowriding]

Ghia
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/Ghia04.jpg


..This is their best effort ?This is the Ghia ? I honestly can't see how in any world will this compete with a very classy new VE Calais ?what a shocker.
http://static.flickr.com/60/210912886_65626b39a0_o.jpghttp://static.flickr.com/74/210912885_b2d6738ea3_o.jpg

[carfreakxr6]

Geez when you compare the BF next to the new VE, the BF really looks old. I personally think they've taken a step back in design.

[FocusRsCosworth]

Gee 10.2 ltr per 100. I can get better than that with the LS1

Ford need 11 ways just to compete. They give away things that we have to pay extra for because no one was buying the Ford offerings.


You can get better than that on your LS1? where on the freeway?:rofl: Good Luck.

[kayman]

He's not kidding mate, just talk to G&D who tuned a Hi-Powered car which then pulled 9.5lt/100km on the trip home down the monash freeway. (long run from cranbourne through to or past the city i think)

[FocusRsCosworth]

..This is their best effort ?This is the Ghia ? I honestly can't see how in any world will this compete with a very classy new VE Calais ?what a shocker.
http://static.flickr.com/60/210912886_65626b39a0_o.jpghttp://static.flickr.com/74/210912885_b2d6738ea3_o.jpg

I got to say that the calais VE design is far better and newer , but truthfully, the ghia interior annihialates the one in the calais, you have a good look how cheap the calais interior looks especially the whole dash.

[XtRmn8]

He's not kidding mate, just talk to G&D who tuned a Hi-Powered car which then pulled 9.5lt/100km on the trip home down the monash freeway. (long run from cranbourne through to or past the city i think)

That is fair enough, but the 10.2lt/100km quoted for the BF is combined consumption. On the fwy at 110km/h my instant consumption is about 7.5lt/100km (BA).

I gotta say that the MkII BF looks shocking!! :spew:

[patto]

OMG !!!

What are Ford thinking?

That looks farking woeful :spew:

Bye Bye Ford :banana:

[kayman]

That is fair enough, but the 10.2lt/100km quoted for the BF is combined consumption. On the fwy at 110km/h my instant consumption is about 7.5lt/100km (BA).

I gotta say that the MkII BF looks shocking!! :spew:

Yeah i wasnt doubting that, but he did state it was less than that on the freeway, and not as a whole.

[Angelo_XLR8]

That new ford puts the crap in craptacular

[Stevotski]

The XT really looks like the bastard lovechild of an AU and BF :spew:

If this is Fords response to VE, they would have been better off leaving their response until Orion.

That is one ugly sonofabitch

also the fact that DSC must be optioned with 17" wheels, sports suspension etc means that ford couldn't even be bothered (or couldn't afford)calibrating a new DSC program for them - it would just be the XR6 program

I could just imagine the Holden guys at Melbourne pooping themselves in laughter at the pics :)

[ssberlina]

OMG What are they thinking. :spew: They must have let the cleaner who designed the Au have another go :rofl:

[matt.vzss]

There is a broadcast for ford dealers at 2.30 today to introduce the BFII, will let you know after i have seen it what the major difference is going to be.

[RICHO]

If marketing shots are taken to show off a cars best angles.... these shots definitely don't fill me with any degree of optimism!!

Are there any other shots from different angels floating around?

[shockwavexr6na]

Thats the ugliest piece of shit ive ever seen.

Talk about 10 steps back on what they had, they could have left it how it was and just upgraded the specifications, that front end is ****ed!!!

The VE certainly has it over Ford :bow:

Me wants a Calais V now.

[C4B]

Not good..........

[SV805]

Although I agree that the pictures accentuate the AU origins....I think it would be fair to reserve final judgment till we see it in the flesh.......I think we have given it to the FF supporters who take the piss from photos of the VE and keep saying wait till you see it.....

[O5BRKY]

I don't mind it, looks Ok, but then again it looks ala VZ from teh frt lines in some ways.Hate the interior though heaps better than the AU.

[JNP304]

Turbo Ghia=Future Calais Turbo status? maybe.
I likeed the BA XR8 bonnet hoe it bulges out. This BF11 Bonnet actually looks like it buldges down? Looks fugly. Ill reserve jusgement for in the flesh as the pics really do bring out the "Au ness" if you like.
They have some good drivetrain options and I do like the ghia interiour. Markieting and pricing and things like standard A/C may see them keep the fleet sales. But looking like it does in that pic makes the 1958 Edsel Ford look like Jessica Alba!

[Black AH CDX]

is it just me or does the front end strangely resemble the Old Toyota Avalon?

[Stevotski]

Turbo Ghia=Future Calais Turbo status? maybe.
I likeed the BA XR8 bonnet hoe it bulges out. This BF11 Bonnet actually looks like it buldges down? Looks fugly. Ill reserve jusgement for in the flesh as the pics really do bring out the "Au ness" if you like.
They have some good drivetrain options and I do like the ghia interiour. Markieting and pricing and things like standard A/C may see them keep the fleet sales. But looking like it does in that pic makes the 1958 Edsel Ford look like Jessica Alba!

Fleets were burned real good with the AU due to shit resale - if this thing looks like an AU they will not touch it - especially as these won't be worth shit when the Orion comes out in 18 months (assuming it looks a lot better than this)


Black Ah Cdx - I think the front end makes the car look like it has been sucking on a lemon

[EddieVE06]

What in the world is that? Just reading the streetforsds forum and they like it. Says it will give the VE a run and that the VE looks crap in comparison. Also saying the interior of the fraud is drool material.

I always knew ford drivers were peasants. The updated falcon next to the ve looks like one of those drawing a 3 year old does of a car with a stick man standing next to it.:doh:

Get real. Saw 3 Omega's at my Holden dealer this morning. One parked next to a VZ. It is very different to the VZ, more curvy, taller but there is something about it, i cant put my finger on it. It's :party: at Holden

[VYBerlinaV8]

An interesting situation. No doubt the VE is better in the style department, but what do the punters value? If fraud can pull off better real world fuel consumption (have to wait and see) we might just have ourselves a contest. The comment about tyre cost will catch a few folk too.

All in all, this is a great example of each side trying to improve their product to capture market share. We as the consumers are reaping the benefits.
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[JNP304]

Ford are trying to tell us with BF11 they pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
In reality I think they just pulled a hair out of their arse! (styling wise)

[Carby]

Take one for a drive mate back to back with a Alloytec and you wont need anyone else to tell you.

Aus8


Two things:

1) Talking about more advanced motor - not whether is better suited for the purpose. The fact that the Ford is a long pointy case iron block already places limitations on the future design of it's next vehicle.

2) Please share with us the driving notes on the substantially revised VE Alloytec engine Vs the Ford donk.

[kayman]

Two things:

1) Talking about more advanced motor - not whether is better suited for the purpose. The fact that the Ford is a long pointy case iron block already places limitations on the future design of it's next vehicle.

2) Please share with us the driving notes on the substantially revised VE Alloytec engine Vs the Ford donk.

What other vehicle is fords seriously advanced Barra 190 in other than the falcon?.. and the alloytec other than the commodore?

i think that sums it up quite well.

[PaulST]

What other vehicle is fords seriously advanced Barra 190 in other than the falcon?.. and the alloytec other than the commodore?

i think that sums it up quite well.
What’s that got to do with the price of fish in China? McDonalds are sold throughout the world but that doesn’t make their food any good. ;)

Fleets were burned real good with the AU due to shit resale - if this thing looks like an AU they will not touch it - especially as these won't be worth shit when the Orion comes out in 18 months (assuming it looks a lot better than this)

Holden burnt a lot of fingers with their public-employee discount scheme. A certain fleet company that I've dealt with that handles 40,000 cars a year weren't too impressed and they weren't suggesting people buy Commodores.

[kayman]

What’s that got to do with the price of fish in China? McDonalds are sold throughout the world but that doesn’t make their food any good. ;)

Holden burnt a lot of fingers with their public-employee discount scheme. A certain fleet company that I've dealt with that handles 40,000 cars a year weren't too impressed and they weren't suggesting people buy Commodores.

Cant take a joke :P! I guess im still living in the dark ages with my pushrods too?

[Carby]

Well you can't really expect a big change when there is no new platform, however it it patently obvious that the Falcon is very much dated compared to the VE. The Commodore went from Deborah Hutton to Jennifer Hawkins, whilst the Falcon went from Miss Piggy, to Miss Piggy with lipstick.:)

[SV99]

Ahahah I wouldnt say jennifer hawkins is fat though. the VE is no athletic car either comming in at 1700ish kgs for the base model.

Soon as our new company car comes in I will see how it compares. to the previous one VZ

[Carby]

Ahahah I wouldnt say jennifer hawkins is fat though. the VE is no athletic car either comming in at 1700ish kgs for the base model.

Soon as our new company car comes in I will see how it compares. to the previous one VZ

I'd put it in the same weight division as the Falcon.............

[PaulST]

Cant take a joke :P! I guess im still living in the dark ages with my pushrods too?
The prob with the internet is that you've got no way of hearing the tone of people and due to the lack of "LOL" or laughing you could have been serious.

Well now that you mention the pushrods... :)

[kayman]

The prob with the internet is that you've got no way of hearing the tone of people and due to the lack of "LOL" or laughing you could have been serious.

Well now that you mention the pushrods... :)

Yes true, I forgot my LOL's and LMAO's. ;)

[csv rulz]

Just sore the pics of BFII while they have changed the front a bit, doesnt look to bad (nothing like VE) they still havnt changed the side on view which now dates back to AU, To me its just another upgrade on the AU which nearly makes me:spew:

[csv rulz]

i hate with a passion how the doors on the ford cuts into the c pillar, it just doesnt look clean. My 2c is Only the die hard ford fans will bye them like wen the AU was new.

[tuff304]

I like the upgrades subtle enough to make a difference but not over done.

Does not look as nice as a VE IMO. I guess we'll have to wait for the journo's to do a BFII vs VE and see what they believe to be the better product.

[jaykay]

After seeing the VE's in the flesh today, I think the blue oval boys had better start worrying. Their sales with the BF are struggling, after seeing the BF II leaked pics I'd say the gap will grow even larger.

Go the VE .....:bow:

[matt.vzss]

just finished in at the BFII dealer preview and i gotta say nothin much has changed.

No Stability Control standard only part of a performance pack,

Definately worried about the Calais V because the Fairmont Ghia has undergone the biggest make over with new interior trims, black centre facia (same as territory turbo), same body kit as an XR all to try and make it more a so called european luxury car.


Base model XT only receives some new bumpers, grille and bonnet and the option of the ZF 6sp Auto. Futura & Fairmont follow the same updates.

XR range doesnt change at all on the outside but they do receive a new interior trim aswell as multi coloured dash dials.

No word yet though on the power figures or whether there is going to be a turbo fairmont as have been the reports.


After seeing all this i think that they havent gone far enough with the updates and there could be some very tough times ahead for the next 18 months until the all new orion model makes its appperance.

My biggest drama is now i have to work out how im going to try and sell these things up against the VE which is an awesome car all round by the looks of things.

[jaykay]

My biggest drama is now i have to work out how im going to try and sell these things up against the VE which is an awesome car all round by the looks of things.
GOOD LUCK ! ! ! ! :bawl:

[Road Warrior]

I wager that the Orion release date is going to be brought forward.

October 2007.

[Danv8]

Wow I am even more determined to get a VE SSV now!

[jaykay]

Wow I am even more determined to get a VE SSV now!
I sat in, looked over, started up and salivated over an Impulse Blue SSV this morning. It was the 6 speed auto.

Read my post here -

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=696075&postcount=330

You'll love it in Impulse Blue, it's HOT :flame: :dance:

[gibbons]

I think they are in deep sh%t. That thing looks terrible. VE headlights now look absolutley nothing like BF.

[Marco]

Looks like gloss black plastic is the in thing at the moment....VE has it, BFII seems to have it, the new Audi RS4 has it, heck even the HP lapdog I bought a few months ago has it around the keyboard.

Anyone else think it's weird that Ford would make sheetmetal changes for a series II update? Normally an update like that would get a new designation, series II updates are usually new wheel covers and seat trim...

[gibbons]

Anyone else think it's weird that Ford would make sheetmetal changes for a series II update?

One word...D E S P E R A T E. It just looks like a last minute job to me.

[Marco]

i hate with a passion how the doors on the ford cuts into the c pillar, it just doesnt look clean. My 2c is Only the die hard ford fans will bye them like wen the AU was new.

I thought I was the only one who got irritated by car styling cockups like that one! Seriously, there are details on some cars that make me hate the entire design.

I don't mind the BFII Ghia front end....but that picture of it next to the picture of the Calais says it all. On its own I liked the BFII Ghia, next to the VE Calais there's just no contest.

BTW, just to carry the headlight argument to a whole new level, the BFII lights look like those on the Audi A4. So there.

[Swordie]

It must be piss on Falcon week. I think I'll give it time before I pass judgement as to how the VE compares with the BFII.

[gaz vyss]

When was the car supposed to be released ? 2002-3-4 ? Seriously think the design goes back a bit. I traded my 8 year old Beamer because I though it looked old. Forrdd going in the wrong direction.

Just my opinion.

[VXSSV8]

Ford are trying to tell us with BF11 they pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
In reality I think they just pulled a hair out of their arse! (styling wise)
:rofl: Nice one mate!

Poor effort considering. All the chrome bits just makes it look cheap :spew:

[BOF crewman X8]

Obviously the VE should be alot better then the BF2, the VE is a new car incase you havent noticed! The BF2 is just a minor update of a car that was released in 2002.

The BA when released made the VY/VZ look average as we need the remember, although alot different the BF is a revised AU and the VZ a revised VT, these cars where approaching 10 years old, Holden release the new car now and Ford next year, in exactly the same way as Holden released the VT 1 year prior to the AU and EL sales were very slow.

If the VE is not a hands down better car then BF then Holden are in serious trouble, hell they have a 500million dollar head start!!

VT vs AU, VY vs BA, VZ vs BF and VE vs new falcon, remember these are separate businesses, if would be financial suicide for both manufactures to release BRAND new cars at the same time and Australia can only buy so many cars!

Compare apples with apples guys! Obviously the VE is going to be a FAR better car, just think if it wasnt! Ford have to be seen to react in some way, they cant just sit on their hands and ignore the situation of the VE and some silly people will be fooled into thinking they are driving a NEW falcon, not just a facelift, it makes very obvious business sense.

[markone2]

You can get better than that on your LS1? where on the freeway?:rofl: Good Luck.


Don't forget school in the morning.......your talking out yer :booty:

[lowriding]

Obviously the VE should be alot better then the BF2, the VE is a new car incase you havent noticed! The BF2 is just a minor update of a car that was released in 2002.

The BA when released made the VY/VZ look average as we need the remember, although alot different the BF is a revised AU and the VZ a revised VT, these cars where approaching 10 years old, Holden release the new car now and Ford next year, in exactly the same way as Holden released the VT 1 year prior to the AU and EL sales were very slow.

If the VE is not a hands down better car then BF then Holden are in serious trouble, hell they have a 500million dollar head start!!

VT vs AU, VY vs BA, VZ vs BF and VE vs new falcon, remember these are separate businesses, if would be financial suicide for both manufactures to release BRAND new cars at the same time and Australia can only buy so many cars!

Compare apples with apples guys! Obviously the VE is going to be a FAR better car, just think if it wasnt! Ford have to be seen to react in some way, they cant just sit on their hands and ignore the situation of the VE and some silly people will be fooled into thinking they are driving a NEW falcon, not just a facelift, it makes very obvious business sense.


funny how it turns around . Because of Fords premature investment in BA the case is not so clear cut - BA/BF was the result of works brought forward and projects fastracked . Interesting to see what the next Falcon will be like as now the cupboard is pretty much bare - the allocation of funds wasn't used the way Ford intended beleive me.
Basically the VY / VZ has been battling along against an already substantionally improved Ford for several years ,so the BF should be competing on level footing with VE ,or close to it.

[sKeptiK]

Obviously the VE should be alot better then the BF2, the VE is a new car incase you havent noticed! The BF2 is just a minor update of a car that was released in 2002.

The BA when released made the VY/VZ look average as we need the remember, although alot different the BF is a revised AU and the VZ a revised VT, these cars where approaching 10 years old, Holden release the new car now and Ford next year, in exactly the same way as Holden released the VT 1 year prior to the AU and EL sales were very slow.

If the VE is not a hands down better car then BF then Holden are in serious trouble, hell they have a 500million dollar head start!!

VT vs AU, VY vs BA, VZ vs BF and VE vs new falcon, remember these are separate businesses, if would be financial suicide for both manufactures to release BRAND new cars at the same time and Australia can only buy so many cars!

Compare apples with apples guys! Obviously the VE is going to be a FAR better car, just think if it wasnt! Ford have to be seen to react in some way, they cant just sit on their hands and ignore the situation of the VE and some silly people will be fooled into thinking they are driving a NEW falcon, not just a facelift, it makes very obvious business sense.

Great post, reminded me of the quality of this site and what makes me keep coming back... some of these posters surely have a dual id on fastfours.com

Ford will struggle for the next 18 months - no daaah, all the posters already know this and I think Ford knows this. My biggest fear is Toyota(yuk). I just hope the Aurion doesn't take whats left of the Falcon sales because then the Commodore will morph into an Aurion competitor and we all know what would happen if it did...

Toyota has been travelling under the radar for too long

[Ghia351]

funny how it turns around . Because of Fords premature investment in BA the case is not so clear cut - BA/BF was the result of works brought forward and projects fastracked . Interesting to see what the next Falcon will be like as now the cupboard is pretty much bare - the allocation of funds wasn't used the way Ford intended beleive me.
Basically the VY / VZ has been battling along against an already substantionally improved Ford for several years ,so the BF should be competing on level footing with VE ,or close to it.
One thing you're forgetting is the new investment program announced by Ford back in May '06 giving Ford Oz far more international design work and the ability to leverage off this for future local products. Over $1.8billion was announced as the future investment and 1500 new positions so I don't think the cupboard is bare, it's being renovated to hold more. Ford oz is currently needing to hire 150 engineers this year alone and the same for the next few years. Also, the money earned by Ford Oz on the development of the Indian Fiesta may have made more profit in the same period as sales of GTO's to the US by Holden because of the currency changes.

[EfiJy]

im disappointed. that front end reminds me of toyotas old avalon.:spew: its become a old mans car.

[vecommo]

who cares if the falcon is better in 11 ways. it still has a ford badge.
im sure holden could come up with a list of 100 ways it is better then a ford.


Exactly. What a crock of shit that article is.

[vecommo]

Just saw the pics. Hahahahaha that looks absolutely hideous!!!

[greenfoam]

Looks pretty crap, unless you like AU's, It's more like AU Series 4? version two than BF2 :). But the real question is, what's it going to look like in 5-10 years time when you are putting along in your VE with worn out slipping 4 speeder auto and you hear pSSSSSSSSSSSSCHOOOOOO with the driver pinned hard in his leather seats looking like this :D:flipoff: as he goes passed sideways. That's what I'm thinking :). VE needs a proper turbo motor (with LPG) and a manual option on the Omega to be complete

[slickholden]

I don't like the base models but the BF II Ghia looks good front on, Reminds me a little of the VY Calais Grill.
I have seen a few better pic's. My biggest gripe with them is they haven't changed the rear very much at all, Some different lights at the rear would be great.
http://picsorban.com/upload/fairmont ghia.jpg
http://picsorban.com/upload/compare.jpg

[Danv8]

I sat in, looked over, started up and salivated over an Impulse Blue SSV this morning. It was the 6 speed auto.

Read my post here -

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=696075&postcount=330

You'll love it in Impulse Blue, it's HOT :flame: :dance:

Great stuff!

:)

[tuff304]

Obviously the VE should be alot better then the BF2, the VE is a new car incase you havent noticed! The BF2 is just a minor update of a car that was released in 2002.

The BA when released made the VY/VZ look average as we need the remember, although alot different the BF is a revised AU and the VZ a revised VT, these cars where approaching 10 years old, Holden release the new car now and Ford next year, in exactly the same way as Holden released the VT 1 year prior to the AU and EL sales were very slow.

If the VE is not a hands down better car then BF then Holden are in serious trouble, hell they have a 500million dollar head start!!

VT vs AU, VY vs BA, VZ vs BF and VE vs new falcon, remember these are separate businesses, if would be financial suicide for both manufactures to release BRAND new cars at the same time and Australia can only buy so many cars!

Compare apples with apples guys! Obviously the VE is going to be a FAR better car, just think if it wasnt! Ford have to be seen to react in some way, they cant just sit on their hands and ignore the situation of the VE and some silly people will be fooled into thinking they are driving a NEW falcon, not just a facelift, it makes very obvious business sense.

This has to be the best post in this thread. Its amusing to see people bag things they have not even driven or experienced yet, I know this is an open forum and everything posted in here is just an opinion but at least make it worthwhile to read. just my 2c :teach:

[monaroCountry1]

VX11SS I agree.

However this forum seems to be alot better (not as one eyed) than some ford forums and expecially better than most import forums.

[Venom XR]

VX11SS I agree.

However this forum seems to be alot better (not as one eyed) than some ford forums and expecially better than most import forums.

Used to be, but now it's probably no better (or worse) - the volume of comments made in this thread that might otherwise be heard in a primary school playground suggest it's being over-run by fanboys.

One thing I am glad Fod hasn't done is repeat the EL mistake - that is, discounting it to compete with a much improve rival, wiping out fleet confidence and harming sales of the next model. In the current climate, Ford might have been better served by going gun-ho on marketing the e-Gas options, which now include Fairmont and XR6 ute, particularly when Holden haven't made significant improvements in economy (which you can't engineer for unless you've got a crystal ball). Holden might want to push forward the release of the dual-fuel alloytec option for VE.

[V-Car]

Stupid comment, Im no Ford fanboy but cant stand this one sided rubbish. So if Holden produced a crap car you would still buy it - says it all really - buying a badge not the car hey!! Look beyond the badge morons buy your car because you like it, need it etc not because its a Holden/Ford. Sometimes I wonder if half the yokels on this site have actually driven a Ford or any other car for that matter. Don t get me wrong I know this crap is just as bad at FF etc but people dont have badge loyalty for the sake of it, use yor brains and throw the one eyed shit out the door. :flipoff:

PS apologies to all the people here who are CAR fans not just one eyed D@@@@@@

Thanks for saying what the quiet majority (i hope) on here think! :bow:
Some of these wannabees would bar up if their favourite badge was on a turd!

[Dee Jay]

Thanks for saying what the quiet majority (i hope) on here think! :bow:
Some of these wannabees would bar up if their favourite badge was on a turd!

COOL where can i buy one and how fast does it go, can i strap my turbos to it and make it sh1t hot!!

Boys take a Chill Pill both Aussie GM and Henry products are great, i like to think the Holden is that bit better.

How do i know this well i have both.

[Danv8]

Thanks for saying what the quiet majority (i hope) on here think! :bow:
Some of these wannabees would bar up if their favourite badge was on a turd!

Oi leave my badged turds out of this. ;)

[VX11SS]

Some of these wannabees would bar up if their favourite badge was on a turd!
LOL nearly fell off my seat!!

[SteveK]

I don't like the base models but the BF II Ghia looks good front on, Reminds me a little of the VY Calais Grill.
I have seen a few better pic's. My biggest gripe with them is they haven't changed the rear very much at all, Some different lights at the rear would be great.
http://picsorban.com/upload/fairmont ghia.jpg

Hmm, that really is a step backwards.

Seeing the VE in the flesh and the new BMW style short front makes the front on the BF MKII look like the Jay Leno of cars.

I like the Ghia, especially in black, lowered, spoilerless and with some big wheels. I see one each morning on Canterbury Rd, but this is wrong.

Steve.

[VX11SS]

Hmm, that really is a step backwards.

Seeing the VE in the flesh and the new BMW style short front makes the front on the BF MKII look like the Jay Leno of cars.


Steve.
Hehe I wish I had his car collection though and his MONEY :)

[X BC X]

[QUOTE=slickholden;696567]

http://picsorban.com/upload/fairmont ghia.jpg


what really stands out in comparison now is the front overhang of the wheelbase..... referring to styling in that regard, the ve takes the cake !

[holdennutta]

I really liked the BA/BF XR Styling. The other models looked a little too plain jane though. I'm glad the XRs haven't picked up the new fronts, which I think are way to Avalon on crack.

It may have been a knee jerk reaction from Ford, but any publicity is good publicity.

[csv rulz]

The BA/BF range is not a bad looking car i dont mind it at all, but side on with those C pillars that ruins the whole car, i just couldnt live with that it irritates me that the doors cut into the c pillars. The BFII looks ok but i think next to the VE it will look very dated.

[RED R8]

That upgrade is the whole reason people bag ford as they clearly have no idea if a car looks fugly no one will buy it except the one eyed ford fans that only buy a badge (you know the ones your bagging for being passionate about their preferred brand) I personaly don't like fords and would not buy one and don't care how they drive I will only drive a Holden a call it crazy I don't care Its guys like me who continue to keep Holden at the front of the pack through loyalty and yes sometimes Holden get it wrong but fortunatly most of the time they get it right because they produce what the people wan't.Ford on the other hand are forever one step forward two steps back the BF upgrade is testomite to this.

[kayman]

If the VE is not a hands down better car then BF then Holden are in serious trouble, hell they have a 500million dollar head start!!



im not sure how you can say that the VE has a 500million dollar head start over BF... Maybe if you looked at it blindly.

Firstly money must have been spent enabling AWD and LHD which the BF doesnt have, then what about the money that was spent and lost in america regarding the Zeta platform?

The VE has been engineered to be a global platform for GM, BF is strictly australian, you cant really compare the costs like that.

[VX11SS]

That upgrade is the whole reason people bag ford as they clearly have no idea if a car looks fugly no one will buy it except the one eyed ford fans that only buy a badge (you know the ones your bagging for being passionate about their preferred brand) I personaly don't like fords and would not buy one and don't care how they drive I will only drive a Holden a call it crazy I don't care Its guys like me who continue to keep Holden at the front of the pack through loyalty and yes sometimes Holden get it wrong but fortunatly most of the time they get it right because they produce what the people wan't.Ford on the other hand are forever one step forward two steps back the BF upgrade is testomite to this.

No its guys like you who will drive Holden under with blind loyalty, its the average joe bloggs who wants an improved car over his last one. Blind loyalty and a lack of Ford etc would mean you would still be driving an HQ (no insult to HQ owners, still got a soft spot me self) or more likely a camry. We need competition to drive the development of these cars for OZ/NZ or they will roll over and disappear.
Blind loyalty does not make for a sound, economically viable car company in the long run.
PS its a bit like voting for the same party over and over again if if they really do not represent your political viewpoint. Doesnt really help anyone bar some grubby polly and I have no one in mind here oh Bollocks yes I do get rid of Tony Blair lol nothing to do with cars or OZ I know!!

[CLUB_819]

Hehe I wish I had his car collection though and his MONEY :)


ha ha true he has some wicked stuff. though looking at your current ride list I wouldn't mind yours if you get Jay Lenos stuff.

And also good post before, too many people just bag something because it's another badge, why don't we compare BF11 next to the new camry(:spew:), Like someone said before we are so caught up in the Ford vs holden thing that toyota just sails along comfortably.

Cheers
Scotty

[EddieVE06]

ha ha true he has some wicked stuff. though looking at your current ride list I wouldn't mind yours if you get Jay Lenos stuff.

And also good post before, too many people just bag something because it's another badge, why don't we compare BF11 next to the new camry(:spew:), Like someone said before we are so caught up in the Ford vs holden thing that toyota just sails along comfortably.

Cheers
Scotty

Aurion in todays car guide. v6 204kw, fuel 10lt/100km. engine is from lexus

[RED R8]

No its guys like you who will drive Holden under with blind loyalty, its the average joe bloggs who wants an improved car over his last one. Blind loyalty and a lack of Ford etc would mean you would still be driving an HQ (no insult to HQ owners, still got a soft spot me self) or more likely a camry. We need competition to drive the development of these cars for OZ/NZ or they will roll over and disappear.
Blind loyalty does not make for a sound, economically viable car company in the long run.
PS its a bit like voting for the same party over and over again if if they really do not represent your political viewpoint. Doesnt really help anyone bar some grubby polly and I have no one in mind here oh Bollocks yes I do get rid of Tony Blair lol nothing to do with cars or OZ I know!!
It's more brand loyalty than blind loyalty I am aware of other good vehicles but Holden has allways had on offer the vehicle that most suits my needs I too wan't my cars to be better and better and again Holden has made each model better Ford has not ,prime example is I became a Holden buyer in my teens because I wanted a V8 after owning three Fords from escorts to my XF I wanted to updade but low and behold Ford decided in their wisdom the EA did not need the V8 option so the VP 5.0 was bought.Holden was a Huge hit with the VL Turbo (Ford wouldn't dare) then the first with air bags then duel airbags IRS the 5.7 etc and have always been one step ahead of Ford the first time in a long time Ford got their sh#t together was the BF F6 an awesome car so good infact it makes their GT's seem very slow and not worth the $$ well done.

[Knight Phlier]

I was wondering why ford will release a completely new car (The Orion) in 2007 when the BA was released 5 years ago - Holden on the other hand have had a all new car 9 years after VT? Is that normal or just due to the AU sales.

[csv rulz]

It's more brand loyalty than blind loyalty I am aware of other good vehicles but Holden has allways had on offer the vehicle that most suits my needs I too wan't my cars to be better and better and again Holden has made each model better Ford has not ,prime example is I became a Holden buyer in my teens because I wanted a V8 after owning three Fords from escorts to my XF I wanted to updade but low and behold Ford decided in their wisdom the EA did not need the V8 option so the VP 5.0 was bought.Holden was a Huge hit with the VL Turbo (Ford wouldn't dare) then the first with air bags then duel airbags IRS the 5.7 etc and have always been one step ahead of Ford the first time in a long time Ford got their sh#t together was the BF F6 an awesome car so good infact it makes their GT's seem very slow and not worth the $$ well done.

Well said, I wouldnt own a ford either and not because ford produce bad cars there cars a quite good but because holden bring out passion in the design of there cars.

I welcome new cars from ford, even when ford bringsout the Orion if its better than the holden thats good because it means the next Holden will have to be even better, Thats y the VE is so good because Holden had to produce something better than the BF. Its this competition between holden and ford that sees them both bringing out better cars.

And who cares about the new camry, i seen one today for the first time in the metal and it was FUGLY. The camry or 380 will never be competetors of Falcon, Commodore in Aus because they are still FWD. Thats also the reason i think the Aurion wont be a success its FWD (that and bland styling)

[jaykay]

The camry or 380 will never be competetors of Falcon, Commodore in Aus because they are still FWD. Thats also the reason i think the Aurion wont be a success its FWD (that and bland styling)
That is why the V8 Supercars are Holdens and Ford only !!!!! :rofl:

[Road Warrior]

Hmmm

So if there was no BA or BF Falcon, for argument's sake, and Ford had been persisting with small revisions of the AU since 1998 (God only knows how they would have survived if they did) do you think the VE would have seen the light of day?

Or more to the point, if it was released (the VE) would the car be any different to the one we have on offer now?

[csv rulz]

Hmmm

So if there was no BA or BF Falcon, for argument's sake, and Ford had been persisting with small revisions of the AU since 1998 (God only knows how they would have survived if they did) do you think the VE would have seen the light of day?

Or more to the point, if it was released (the VE) would the car be any different to the one we have on offer now?


I think that is something only Holden can really answer but i doubt it would be as good as it has turned out to be purely because it wouldnt need to be that good.

[VR304]

Hmmm

So if there was no BA or BF Falcon, for argument's sake, and Ford had been persisting with small revisions of the AU since 1998 (God only knows how they would have survived if they did) do you think the VE would have seen the light of day?

Or more to the point, if it was released (the VE) would the car be any different to the one we have on offer now?

I would think the major revision for VE would still have happened, but if not, soon after - major revisions have tended to be around the 10 year mark - so if they were to follow that, then it was due around now.

[motomk]

Done a hatchet job on this.
Rubbish posts will be removed.

[flappist]

I was wondering why ford will release a completely new car (The Orion) in 2007 when the BA was released 5 years ago - Holden on the other hand have had a all new car 9 years after VT? Is that normal or just due to the AU sales.

The BA and BF are basicly the same as an AU, there have been minor updates and tin changes but they are all the same car.
If you look at any of the models AU1,2,3;BA1,2;BF1,2 and chop off in front of and behind the doors they are identical.

Both sides have done the same stuff.

VT started with 5.0 & 3.8, by the time VZ came about 5.0 was replaced by LS1 and then LS2, 3.8 was replace by alloytech, 6speed manual and 5speed autos, IRS......

AU started with 5.0 windsor, 4.0 SOHC & VCT, by the time BF came out there was 5.4 DVCT, 5.4 QOHC, 4.0 DVCT, 4.0 DIVCT, 6speed auto and manual, CBIRS....

VE was started before 2000, I personally saw an ORION drive train mule in Oct 2003 in Tennent Ck (the engineers had beer goggles on and blabbed)

I am going to the VE launch on Monday to see the new toys and will probably go to the BF2 launch in a couple on months. The new Force 6 & Force 8 models are quite interesting.....

[Road Warrior]

The BA and BF are basicly the same as an AU, there have been minor updates and tin changes but they are all the same car.
If you look at any of the models AU1,2,3;BA1,2;BF1,2 and chop off in front of and behind the doors they are identical.

I was under the impression that the BA was so heavily revised from the AU, it was a completely new car in its own right. The door skins are the same but thats it. Different bodyshell, driveline, interior. Didnt they say that when the AU came out, it was the first all new Falcon in 10 years (since EA) but when the BA came out, the BA was even more all-new than the AU was?


VE was started before 2000, I personally saw an ORION drive train mule in Oct 2003 in Tennent Ck (the engineers had beer goggles on and blabbed)

Please divulge more details!


I am going to the VE launch on Monday to see the new toys and will probably go to the BF2 launch in a couple on months. The new Force 6 & Force 8 models are quite interesting.....

Force 6 and Force 8...sounds like a type of cyclone category...wasnt the F6 meant to be Force 6? So Force 8 must be F8 and you know what that means...:burnout:

Also, continuing from my own question that I posed earlier regarding the VE and alternate futures, I agree that the VE would still have been released around this time, if you take into account the 10 year lifespan of the vehicle platform (assuming that it was company policy to renew the platform every 10 years or some such) but the car itself may have been substantially different in terms of its final mechanical specs and possibly even the chassis underpinnings. I think the styling would be pretty much as is though.

[351 Mach1]

The BA and BF are basicly the same as an AU, there have been minor updates and tin changes but they are all the same car.
If you look at any of the models AU1,2,3;BA1,2;BF1,2 and chop off in front of and behind the doors they are identical.

They only share the door skins.

[flappist]

They only share the door skins.

And a few other bits, like most of the engine, gearboxes & diffs etc.

Yes the AU won the prize as the world's ugliest car, so I suspect that is why Ford re-designed most of the body but the BA/F is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

Orion details, sorry I have no clear recollection of anything at that time your worship....

Force 6 has absolutely nothing to do with either F6 Typhoon or F6 Tornado and thats all I really can say just yet, but it will be pretty nifty. There has never been a Ford product like the Force 8.
Whether they will be as nifty as the VE only time will, but at this time I have not seen any VE model equivelents.......

[Road Warrior]

There has never been a Ford product like the Force 8.
Whether they will be as nifty as the VE only time will, but at this time I have not seen any VE model equivelents.......

Its a supercharged V8 isnt it.

[kart_racer]

# VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.

-Based on what? The VE can corner much faster than the VZ (and most likely the BF), so it should have an awesome laptime, and I can't see the Fords beating the SSV 0-100 times either.

# VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.

-Even though the Alloytec produces more power with much less capacity?

# VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.

-Wow... And just how many gears does one need? More ratios does not make a car better...

# VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.

-And the Falcon has ALWAYS been this heavy, and doesn't have the safety systems and body strength of the VE, or the advanced suspension that has increased the Commodore's weight.

# VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.

-Yet...

# Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.

-There is a V Series Commodore coming out in a month which will be standard with A/C and alloys and seriously undercut the price of the XT.

# BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).

-A VE with a full-size spare option is still cheaper than the Falcon.

# BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.

-So you can pack 4 extra bottles of milk into the boot...not much to sell a car on.

# The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)

Just means that standard tyres on an Omega are better quality than those provided by Ford, so the Commodore grips better, therefore stops sooner and is a safer car. Cheaper replacements will be available by the time they are required.

# BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.

Ok. But this list should be re-titled "One and a half features the Falcon has over a car that completely outclasses it in every other way"

# There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs

The VZE Wagon and Ute are still great cars and will have all of the features of the VE.

[PJK]

# VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.

-Based on what? The VE can corner much faster than the VZ (and most likely the BF), so it should have an awesome laptime, and I can't see the Fords beating the SSV 0-100 times either.

# VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.

-Even though the Alloytec produces more power with much less capacity?

# VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.

-Wow... And just how many gears does one need? More ratios does not make a car better...

# VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.

-And the Falcon has ALWAYS been this heavy, and doesn't have the safety systems and body strength of the VE, or the advanced suspension that has increased the Commodore's weight.

# VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.

-Yet...

# Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.

-There is a V Series Commodore coming out in a month which will be standard with A/C and alloys and seriously undercut the price of the XT.

# BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).

-A VE with a full-size spare option is still cheaper than the Falcon.

# BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.

-So you can pack 4 extra bottles of milk into the boot...not much to sell a car on.

# The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)

Just means that standard tyres on an Omega are better quality than those provided by Ford, so the Commodore grips better, therefore stops sooner and is a safer car. Cheaper replacements will be available by the time they are required.

# BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.

Ok. But this list should be re-titled "One and a half features the Falcon has over a car that completely outclasses it in every other way"

# There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs

The VZE Wagon and Ute are still great cars and will have all of the features of the VE.

I tend to agree kart_racer. Most of the supposed advantages are really Ford clutching at straws. None are very significant.

6 speed tranny - Most drivers aren't enthusiasts like everybody in Forum land and probably couldn't tell the difference between 4/5/6 speed

60/40 back seat - How many people really use it? If you need to carry loads of crap get a wagon.

Price of replacement tyres - plenty of others to choose from. FWIW OE Mazda 6 205/55 x 16 = $330ea!!!

Full size spare - I've used 1 spare in 14 years - I think I can live with a space saver.

No Ute or Cab Chassis - Ever heard of Rodeo

/end rant

[Venom XR]

Hmmm

So if there was no BA or BF Falcon, for argument's sake, and Ford had been persisting with small revisions of the AU since 1998 (God only knows how they would have survived if they did) do you think the VE would have seen the light of day?

Or more to the point, if it was released (the VE) would the car be any different to the one we have on offer now?

I believe for the most part, no matter what Ford did with BA/BF, VE would be much the car it is now.

[patto]

I believe for the most part, no matter what Ford did with BA/BF, VE would be much the car it is now.

I agree.

Holden have benchmarked VE Commodore not against the Falcon, but against BMW, Audi etc. it's exported to every continent so Holden's focus is now global as the centre of GM engineering for large rear-wheel-drive platforms.

[flappist]

I agree.

Holden have benchmarked VE Commodore not against the Falcon, but against BMW, Audi etc. it's exported to every continent so Holden's focus is now global as the centre of GM engineering for large rear-wheel-drive platforms.

Where is the dealership in Antarctica?

[aussiev8]

OMG I have just seen the new Aurion in Carsguide, opposite the VE. Toyota have produced another refrigerator on wheels. So bland and boring I fell asleep looking at it.

The engine is a pearler however.

[Venom XR]

# VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.

-Based on what? The VE can corner much faster than the VZ (and most likely the BF), so it should have an awesome laptime, and I can't see the Fords beating the SSV 0-100 times either.

= Depends on the definition of performance. If it's yours, then I agree with you. In other areas, Falcon may perform better.

# VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.

-Even though the Alloytec produces more power with much less capacity?

= Even though the Alloytec produces less torque than the 4.0lt I6 from a '92 EBII? 400mls isn't 'much less' either. The 3.5l V6 from the forthcoming Aurion produces more power than both (but still less torque.)

# VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.

-Wow... And just how many gears does one need? More ratios does not make a car better...

= No, but more fuel efficient...

# VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.

-And the Falcon has ALWAYS been this heavy, and doesn't have the safety systems and body strength of the VE, or the advanced suspension that has increased the Commodore's weight.

= AU wasn't as heavy. You're assertions than Falcon doesn't have the same body strength is based on what? What makes Commodores suspensions more advanced than Falcons? Both are different setups, not really more advanced than another. Good that VE finally replaces Commodores 26 y/o suspension though.

# VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.

-Yet...

= True, but only in duel-fuel form.

# Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.

-There is a V Series Commodore coming out in a month which will be standard with A/C and alloys and seriously undercut the price of the XT.

= Omega isn't the base model? Why promote Omega as the base, with a particular price, only to supercede it almost immediately with a cheaper car with 2 additional features?

# BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).

-A VE with a full-size spare option is still cheaper than the Falcon.

= Only without air conditioning...

# BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.

-So you can pack 4 extra bottles of milk into the boot...not much to sell a car on.

= No, but selling cars has always been a 'mines bigger than yours' exercise.

# The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)

- Just means that standard tyres on an Omega are better quality than those provided by Ford, so the Commodore grips better, therefore stops sooner and is a safer car. Cheaper replacements will be available by the time they are required.

= $90 per tyre extra should warrant *much* better quality tyres. Is there something wrong with the Dunlops on Falcons?

# BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.

Ok. But this list should be re-titled "One and a half features the Falcon has over a car that completely outclasses it in every other way"

= In many ways, sure, but 'completely' and 'every other way' is very subjective.

# There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs

The VZE Wagon and Ute are still great cars and will have all of the features of the VE.[/QUOTE]

= True, but Commodore now lacks a true workhorse again. The Rodeo does an admirable job though.

I'm sure Holden could do a similar 11 things... I'm sure any car manufaturer could if they wanted to. Seems like a big deal is being made of this though...

At least Commodore owners can now get factory stripes, so Ford couldn't make the list 12 things. :) Though, didn't one Holden exec say that they'd not do stripes when BA was released, because we weren't in the 70's? :jester: Funnily enough, I actually prefer the Commodore bonnet stripes over the GT side stripes...

[Wonky]

To be fair I have to say I'll reserve final judgement till I see the BFII in the flesh knowing personally how much different the VE looks in the flesh compared to in pictures, but have to say that from the pictures the BFII leaves me seriously underwhelmed (and that's not even comparing it to VE).

Parked next to a nickel VE Calais V V8 yesterday - looked absolutely awesome (except needs lowering)!! Only had standard rims tho.........

[SCiFiRE]

OMG I have just seen the new Aurion in Carsguide, opposite the VE. Toyota have produced another refrigerator on wheels. So bland and boring I fell asleep looking at it.

The engine is a pearler however.


actually, though this is a bit off topic, i saw the clay for the sports model at the melbourne motor show, and it looked horn.

if they had rwd and a bit more grunt, you might've been able to think they were competition....but alas, FWD, and will fall on the heap just like the rest of them. sorry toyota, no one in aus will car until you come up with RWD.

[vecommo]

VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.[/I]

-Even though the Alloytec produces more power with much less capacity?

= Even though the Alloytec produces less torque than the 4.0lt I6 from a '92 EBII? 400mls isn't 'much less' either. The 3.5l V6 from the forthcoming Aurion produces more power than both (but still less torque.)
stripes...

Maybe because the Alloytec (and Aurion) engines don't have a bore x stroke relationship of a tractor.
It is common knowledge that larger capacity/longer stroke = more torque. It just goes to show how stupid those people are who think that the falcons higher torque output is a result of some sort of technical superiority. Shorten it's stroke and get it down to 3.6l and then see how much torque it will make.




As for that Tom Gorman bloke, he is really clutching at straws in desperation. He is also getting a bit cocky with some of his comments, IMO he needs to put a sock in it and shut his crap dribbling mouth.

[Road Warrior]

Where is the dealership in Antarctica?

What is this "Force 8" that you speak of.

[Dug]

So, the Senator's getting a bit long in the tooth, and i've thought about trading it on a new VE Calais V8, but my mind is now made up. It's a BF2 XT for me. Sure it's bland, boring, bland, plastic, bland, and bland, but how could I be expected to pass up the extra 8 litres of boot space. Just imagine how much extra milk I could fit in that boot - I'll tell you, 8 LITRES!

Now, if the extra 8 Litres was up the front instead of down the back, then perhaps it would be a different story.

.... wonder why they don't just call it a ZF Falcon? Seem's to me that that's the only real thing that they think they've got going for them. ... well, that and thier blandness. Oh wait, that's not a positive. Sorry.

[vecommo]

Hahahahaha, nice one Dug!!!

[HSE2]

The BA and BF are basicly the same as an AU, there have been minor updates and tin changes but they are all the same car.
If you look at any of the models AU1,2,3;BA1,2;BF1,2 and chop off in front of and behind the doors they are identical.


The comments by Tom Gorman are more to do with this not being the case.

The difference between AU and BA are so significant it would be easier to ask what hasn't been changed or improved. Au represented about 17% stiffness over EL. But during AU life several major changes happened to comply with Crash worthiness. By the time BA came along the only real similarity was the doors but what the doors were affixed to, was considerably stiffened.
The platform now had to accommodate the Territory

Some of the changes included

Upgrade roof rail
Enhanced B pillar
Reinforced upper a pillar
Strengthen lower A pillar
All new front side rails
Side rail gusset and tunnel rail reinforcement
Torque box reinforcement
Upper rocker panel reinforcement
Upgrade sled runner
All new rear rails with crumple zones.

I forget exactly what was done to the front sub frame but the rear had to be completely changed due to the implementation of Control Blade being a complete unit, which in its self represented a significant change to the rear of the car. Then there was the change in fuel cell location and so on. The change in name was not only to distance itself from the AU but to also reinforce that BA was as close to a brand new car as Ford gets given the policy of the day involved incremental increases to the floor pan. The fact is BA is a considerable distance from being the same car as the AU.

"As for that Tom Gorman bloke, he is really clutching at straws in desperation. He is also getting a bit cocky with some of his comments; IMO he needs to put a sock in it and shut his crap dribbling mouth."

While it might look like it, what he is commenting on is what has happened on paper. When BA was launched the Holden boss decided he wanted heavy fuel guzzling cars out law because Holden was better in this area. Ford has replied that Holden haven't listened when it comes to VE. Tom stopped short of the theatrics employed by ol Hammy. It’s the gamesman ship that continues day to day between the two companies nothing more.

The comments about catching up are related solely with what looks to have happened on paper in technical and engineering content alone. He is basically saying we have done alot of this work already to the platform we have over a number of years. No one is rolling out specific rigidity numbers relating to the chassis so until they do the word out of either camp means nothing. What does, is the drive indications that point to the VE being the sharper stiffer tool. Its ok to look at something and say we shouldn't be too far off but another completely to have the end result clearly represented by the media saying to the contrary. While it might appear similar to what Ford have been moving to, it also appears VE has come together on the high side of the sum of its parts and that is something Ford and its owners and fans need to be respectful of and humble about. Front guard treatment not withstanding VE is a great achievement.

[flappist]

The comments by Tom Gorman are more to do with this not being the case.

The difference between AU and BA are so significant it would be easier to ask what hasn't been changed or improved. Au represented about 17% stiffness over EL. But during AU life several major changes happened to comply with Crash worthiness. By the time BA came along the only real similarity was the doors but what the doors were affixed to, was considerably stiffened.
The platform now had to accommodate the Territory

Some of the changes included

Upgrade roof rail
Enhanced B pillar
Reinforced upper a pillar
Strengthen lower A pillar
All new front side rails
Side rail gusset and tunnel rail reinforcement
Torque box reinforcement
Upper rocker panel reinforcement
Upgrade sled runner
All new rear rails with crumple zones.

I forget exactly what was done to the front sub frame but the rear had to be completely changed due to the implementation of Control Blade being a complete unit, which in its self represented a significant change to the rear of the car. Then there was the change in fuel cell location and so on. The change in name was not only to distance itself from the AU but to also reinforce that BA was as close to a brand new car as Ford gets given the policy of the day involved incremental increases to the floor pan. The fact is BA is a considerable distance from being the same car as the AU.

"As for that Tom Gorman bloke, he is really clutching at straws in desperation. He is also getting a bit cocky with some of his comments; IMO he needs to put a sock in it and shut his crap dribbling mouth."

While it might look like it, what he is commenting on is what has happened on paper. When BA was launched the Holden boss decided he wanted heavy fuel guzzling cars out law because Holden was better in this area. Ford has replied that Holden haven't listened when it comes to VE. Tom stopped short of the theatrics employed by ol Hammy. It’s the gamesman ship that continues day to day between the two companies nothing more.

The comments about catching up are related solely with what looks to have happened on paper in technical and engineering content alone. He is basically saying we have done alot of this work already to the platform we have over a number of years. No one is rolling out specific rigidity numbers relating to the chassis so until they do the word out of either camp means nothing. What does, is the drive indications that point to the VE being the sharper stiffer tool. Its ok to look at something and say we shouldn't be too far off but another completely to have the end result clearly represented by the media saying to the contrary. While it might appear similar to what Ford have been moving to, it also appears VE has come together on the high side of the sum of its parts and that is something Ford and its owners and fans need to be respectful of and humble about. Front guard treatment not withstanding VE is a great achievement.

So if I understand you correctly, after delivering the most ugly car in the 'verse and demolishing new vehicle sales the Head Honcho of Ford didn't say "Ah this is just a revision of the really bad one, we think it will be better"?

Strange......

The VZ has is VERY different from a VT too, engine, drive train, suspension, interior.........

All models evolve, it is just that the AU was such an "interesting experiment" that I think it actually was mutated.

This reminds me of "New improved AJAX with double whitener and hydroscopic dehideral throbotronosity" which has nothing to do with old AJAX except it is the same stuff in a new bottle.

Marketing, marketing, marketing..............

Did you pass the Napi-san challenge?

[flappist]

....but alas, FWD, and will fall on the heap just like the rest of them. sorry toyota, no one in aus will car until you come up with RWD.

Must be those pesky kangaroos that put Toyota on top of the sales figures every month. I wonder how they get their tails into the seats?

[PepeLePew]

Wow, long read.

I really like the look of the BA. It was a pretty, clean design. BF1 updated that quite nicely, but the little extra complexities jarred on me a bit...

IMHO BF2 goes that step farther down that track, I just cant convince myself it makes sense. Its too try hard looking, and doesnt gel in my eyes.

Ghia interior is schmick, ala turbo Terri. I'd love it.

I havent seen a VE in the flesh yet but its not a bad looking thing at all, and yes IMHO it makes the BA/BF look quite dated with its in your face design...

I'll wait and see BF2 in the flesh tho...many didnt like the VY update when it first appeared either....

As for ... fuel economy on the LS1, below 10l/100? Hmmmmmmm nope. On the highway yes. I'm a grandpa driver and couldnt better 12l/100 average 90% country driving which would be better than true combined.

As for ... Alloytec? I dont give a rat about the technology argument. Proof is in the driving and IMHO the Barra 6 is the better daily driver. IMHO the old 3.8 was a better match for the car. Either kerb weight would have to go down or the Alloytec would need a big torque injection at lower RPM. Unless there has been a magic change in the engine Im concerned about the drive experience VE actually offers.

Man I drove a new Maxima renter this week with the 3.5. That thing rocks, albeit in a lighter car. And the ugly boat handles something nice too. It reminded me what current model Aussie cars DONT feel like TO DRIVE. That said, Id wouldnt buy one in a flying um.....

New VE SS gets a thumbs up, what a brew. Calais shot above doesnt do that model justice tho,,,,,,hope it looks better in the flesh :)

[SCiFiRE]

Must be those pesky kangaroos that put Toyota on top of the sales figures every month. I wonder how they get their tails into the seats?

hehe yeah good call, they do sell more fridges than holden.
i guess i shoulda added 'enthusiests in aus...'

[McobraR]

Maybe because the Alloytec (and Aurion) engines don't have a bore x stroke relationship of a tractor.
It is common knowledge that larger capacity/longer stroke = more torque. It just goes to show how stupid those people are who think that the falcons higher torque output is a result of some sort of technical superiority. Shorten it's stroke and get it down to 3.6l and then see how much torque it will make.

wouldnt make much torque without a doubt, but will probably make as much power since it'll be able to rev alot more. It'll probably sound better too since it already sounds better as it is now.

[HSE2]

So if I understand you correctly, after delivering the most ugly car in the 'verse and demolishing new vehicle sales the Head Honcho of Ford didn't say "Ah this is just a revision of the really bad one, we think it will be better"?

Strange......



I think it’s safe to say you don't understand me correctly. Actually I don’t have much of an idea what you have just said as it would seem to be a contradiction in some areas and a completely different tangent in others but I am sure you know what you mean.

The Head Honcho, as you put it, comments are about the work done from AU to BF in relation to what VE now brings to the market over its predecessor. That’s where he is getting (IMO) the 'they are catching up to "US' statement. I am not aware that Tom is talking directly about AU in any shape or form and would rather it stayed that way although BF2 certainly isn't going to help in that endeavour. I don’t think Ford is publicly commenting about appearance either past of present.

However

The statement.
'The BA and BF are basically the same as an AU, there have been minor updates and tin changes" for my money is inaccurate and is something Ford appear keen for people to realise.

If the suspension changes were an evolution from VT to VZ, which would be accurate what would throwing the complete rear sub frame and suspension set out of the AU qualify as?

The six was an evolution, the V8s a completely different animal for Ford Aust

The interior of AU used a completely different mindset to that of BA which is why they went back to the one design instead of the "hiline version", which incidentally is a theme adopted in VE to increase distinction.

I don't see how you get VT to VZ being VERY different. They certainly evolved and they certainly improved in the same way AU to AU3 did and BA to arguably BF2 might but nothing like what went on with AU to BA.

I wouldn't call the work done under the skin minor not when it introduced increased stiffness of up to 25% in certain areas of the car and over 15% in rest. BA was way more then a face lift but I think you know that or at least you should have. What happened to the visible surfaces was nothing to what was achieved under the skin. Minor for me is BA to BF.

[FocusRsCosworth]

Umm........just remember one thing... that most of you forgot...
FPV is still outselling HSV 4 to 1 ... ( these are your high performance vehicles we are talking about here am i right??, and they arent selling, maybe the HSV VE variants will do one better this time, we will just wait and see, until the FORCE 6 and FORCE 8 are released which are quite interesting from what im hearing.:rocket: :burnout:

Im not saying the VE doesnt look good, yes they have a good design and have done well. I cant agree on your interior though (IMO its cheap like it always has been, an improvement but not comparable to the fairmont ghia) people who think otherwise need to open their eyes. for eg CALAIS -V Vs FAIRMONT GHIA have a good look.

Cant wait for the Orion. Good times ahead :) :evil:

[Aus8]

It will be interesting to see if the VE HSV sales will get the FPV guys back. They have been kicking our ass for ages now.

[speedyocca]

Saw them filming one today on the harbour bridge as I drove past. I'm not a big fan of the new front

[BadMac]

Sorry pic was too wide, see post below with reduced width!

[BadMac]

Back onto the topic.

Heres a side by side I have copied from FAF (Member Tinkle) BF->BF2.
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/2462psi.jpg

Then to side by side it (FAF member Dazed) (BF2->VZ)
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a64/frank_e_boi/vzbf.jpg


Heres more specs (From PaulST on FAF).

Ford Australia President Tom Gorman today announced details of the new BF Falcon MkII range, which will go on sale in October.
"The introduction of the new BF Falcon MkII is the next step in the evolution of the iconic Falcon brand," Mr Gorman said.
"BF Falcon MkII builds on the strong engineering foundations laid by the BF Falcon and SY Territory programs, while also delivering a host of fresh exterior and interior styling elements that further refine the Falcon's contemporary design.
"The depth of engineering and technological innovation in the Falcon range has been extended with BF MkII, with greater access across more models to some of the Falcon's class-leading features and technologies."
Where the BF Falcon introduced performance and luxury buyers to the benefits of a world-class six-speed automatic transmission and state-of-the-art Dynamic Stability Control system, BF Falcon MkII opens up this world of technological advances to even more Falcon sedan customers.
With the release of BF Falcon MkII, the ZF six-speed automatic transmission – which was the first six-speed automatic to be fitted to an Australian-built vehicle at BF Falcon – will be available on all petrol Falcon sedan models.
Falcon XT, Futura and Fairmont sedan customers can option their vehicle with the six-speed automatic transmission and delight in the real-world benefits it offers in terms of reduced fuel consumption, increased functionality, precision and refined performance.
"The six-speed automatic transmission has proven to be a standout feature of the BF Falcon, especially for its ability to deliver a tailored driving experience for customers," Mr Gorman said.
"Not only does it reward a sporty driving style with livelier performance and sharper responses, but it also delivers significant benefits in terms of reduced fuel consumption and greater refinement, with smoother shift quality a notable feature during everyday use."
Falcon XT customers opting for the six-speed automatic transmission will notice an improvement in fuel consumption of more than six per cent when compared to the BF Falcon four-speed automatic equipped vehicle, with an accompanying Australian Design Rule (ADR) 81/01 fuel economy test figure of 10.2 l/100km.
Fuel economy on petrol BF Falcon MkII XT, Futura and Fairmont sedan models with the four-speed automatic transmission has also improved. As a result of further drivetrain efficiencies that have been achieved on these Falcon models, fuel economy will improve by a further two per cent, dropping 0.2 l/100km to 10.7 l/100km.
Powered by the most technologically advanced six-cylinder engine ever produced by Ford Australia, with its dual independent variable camshaft timing and dual knock sensors, four-speed automatic Falcon I6 models across the range have benefited from a program of continued refinement that has delivered:

Improved transmission thermal management – faster warm-up and reduced friction losses allow it to reach optimum efficiency earlier, improving fuel consumption during cold starts and on short trips (a common usage pattern for many drivers)
Revised Powertrain Control Module (PCM) calibrations in line with the optimised transmission thermal management
Improved aerodynamic performance (reduced drag) of the new front bumper design
"The extensive engineering program undertaken at BF Falcon delivered significant gains in the areas of fuel efficiency and refinement, as well as more useable performance from our Barra 190 six-cylinder engine," Mr Gorman said.
"But the process of improvement is a continual one and our engineers have responded with further improvements on the top-selling four-speed auto Falcon I6 models, delivering greater real world benefits to Falcon owners.
"In the last two years we've delivered a seven per cent improvement in fuel efficiency on the Falcon XT. The availability of the six-speed automatic transmission on Falcon XT with the BF MkII program has taken the level of improvement even further, to more than 11 per cent."
Dynamic Stability Control will also be available across the wider Falcon sedan range as part of an optional sports pack, which includes the six-speed automatic transmission, Sports Control Blade Independent Rear Suspension and 17-inch alloy wheels and tyres.
"The BF Falcon introduced traction control as standard on all petrol Falcon sedans, as well as on XR Falcon Utes, while also incorporating the very latest in chassis control systems as standard on premium Falcon sedans," Mr Gorman said.
"Now the BF Falcon MkII raises the bar even further with the availability of DSC on Falcon XT, Futura, Fairmont and XR6 sedans, adding to the high levels of active safety already built into each Falcon."
Ford has developed four distinct levels of DSC calibration, ranging from comfort to sports, to cover the variety of engine, transmission and body styles available across the Territory and Falcon vehicle families.
The calibration of the DSC system when fitted to a Falcon XT, Futura, Fairmont or Falcon XR6 will match the system currently fitted to the Fairmont Ghia, with DSC interventions being tuned to the overall sportier nature of the package compared to Fairlane and LTD variants.
In addition to the wider availability of DSC and the six-speed automatic transmission, BF Falcon MkII also introduces a host of exterior design and interior styling upgrades within the Falcon line-up.
Fairmont Ghia leads the way with a new European-inspired sports luxury exterior look, reflected in its new, dark accent headlamp treatment, tapered bonnet, chrome grille, bejewelled fog lights and front bumper finishes, and new seven-spoke 17-inch sports alloy wheels.
An exposed chrome exhaust, XR-style side skirts and rear bumper, and contemporary block font 'Ghia' badging complete the distinctive Fairmont Ghia package, resulting in a fresh, aspirational appeal and bold road presence.
Inside, the BF MkII Fairmont Ghia is a statement in refined elegance, from the black chrome instrument cluster, chrome air vent highlights and black onyx Interior Command Centre to the sumptuous China Beige leather seat trim, suede feel seat backs and door trims, and new front seat headrests.
Fairmont, Futura and Falcon XT also receive notable upgrades to the exterior design, as do Falcon Ute XL, XLS and RTV models. All feature a new tapered bonnet, aggressive front bumper design and new headlamp treatments, along with revised rear bumpers on sedan models.
A new interior environment sets the BF MkII range of Falcon XR and Falcon Ute XR models apart from their predecessors, with a new "Chicane" metallic yarn seat trim, new instrument cluster design and satin alloy inserts in the instrument panel.
The new seat trim can also be customised with a wide range of stitching and embroidery colours, which will lend the interior a subtle or high impact finish, depending on personal taste.
Five new exterior paint colours will be introduced to herald the arrival of BF Falcon MkII, including two new hero colours and a new Chromaflair® colour for the XR range, while another two colours – Seduce and Ego – were released in the lead-up to the new model.
"With the recent influx of new models sparking renewed interest in the Large car segment, the new BF Falcon MkII offers customers an exceptional family car package that delivers outstanding fuel economy, performance, refinement and safety," Mr Gorman said.
"BF Falcon MkII builds on Falcon's core strengths of world-class engineering, state-of-the-art technologies and superior driving dynamics, with a fresh and aspirational design that is sure to appeal to customers and keep the Falcon nameplate at the vanguard of the local car industry."

[vecommo]

Umm........just remember one thing... that most of you forgot...
FPV is still outselling HSV 4 to 1

Hahahaha, where on earth did you pull that figure from? Yes FPV have been outselling HSV, but not by that big a margin. Last time I checked they were pretty even, the difference between them was a single digit.

[Drizt]

Hmmm its still a very boring looking car to look at... and it looks a bit to busy in the front on styling.

think its a backwards step myself.

[vecommo]

I wouldn't call the work done under the skin minor not when it introduced increased stiffness of up to 25% in certain areas of the car and over 15% in rest. BA was way more then a face lift but I think you know that or at least you should have. What happened to the visible surfaces was nothing to what was achieved under the skin. Minor for me is BA to BF.

I think you are totally ignoring the fact that the VY also underwent significant strengthening of its body structure, which substantially improved rigidity and safety over the VT/VX. The VY incorporated many improvements under the skin, however this is not as commonly known as Holden didn't carry on about it as if they had re-invented the wheel.
Take these crash test results for example:
BA Falcon: http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/_scripts/ancap_summary_result.php?IID=1749
VY Commodore:http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/_scripts/ancap_summary_result.php?IID=1779

The VY scored 12.79 out of 16 in the offset crash test while the BA scored 11.82 out of 16 in the same test. This indicates that the VY's frontal structure is on par or at least slightly better in crash performance than the BA's, while admittedly the BA scores better in the side impact test.

Now it is NOT my intention to use these figures as a be all and end all to this argument, and accept that there are many more variables to consider, however it would be fair to say that it provides a fair indication that the VY-VZ Commodore was not THAT far behind the Falcon in terms of body structure and safety as it has been made out to be by so many people.

[BossV8]

As for that Tom Gorman bloke, he is really clutching at straws in desperation. He is also getting a bit cocky with some of his comments, IMO he needs to put a sock in it and shut his crap dribbling mouth.

Pot calling the kettle black there mate :confused:

Both bosses have said similar comments.... Mooney criticed the Falcon weight a while back saying they will be heavier on fuel economy, yet they have a slight advantage over commodore in a few models in lt/100km. But as head of their respective companies in Australia, naturally they will talk with a bias towards their own brand

I like the VE, I'm not overly convinced of the BFII yet, but the quote above doesnt really show a great deal of maturity :rofl:

[HSE2]

I think you are totally ignoring the fact that the VY also underwent significant strengthening of its body structure, which substantially improved rigidity and safety over the VT/VX. The VY incorporated many improvements under the skin, however this is not as commonly known as Holden didn't carry on about it as if they had re-invented the wheel..

As I wasn't talking about VZ its a bit hard to ignore but just out of interest what did they change? How does this change from testing done on VT. Didn't the VT score well form the get go?



Now it is NOT my intention to use these figures as a be all and end all to this argument, and accept that there are many more variables to consider, however it would be fair to say that it provides a fair indication that the VY-VZ Commodore was not THAT far behind the Falcon in terms of body structure and safety as it has been made out to be by so many people.

Not sure what you mean by body structure and there is no arguement.

[Aus8]

No one speaks more crap than John Crennan! Even being a GMH man I can say no one comes close to him hehe!

Aus8

[VooDoo]

Umm........just remember one thing... that most of you forgot...
FPV is still outselling HSV 4 to 1 ... ( these are your high performance vehicles we are talking about here am i right??, and they arent selling, maybe the HSV VE variants will do one better this time, we will just wait and see, until the FORCE 6 and FORCE 8 are released which are quite interesting from what im hearing.:rocket: :burnout:

Im not saying the VE doesnt look good, yes they have a good design and have done well. I cant agree on your interior though (IMO its cheap like it always has been, an improvement but not comparable to the fairmont ghia) people who think otherwise need to open their eyes. for eg CALAIS -V Vs FAIRMONT GHIA have a good look.

Cant wait for the Orion. Good times ahead :) :evil:

LOL.. what a funny man. You expect sales of HSV in the few months prior to a new platform release to stay the same or drop from previous levels? OF COURSE they drop. We are waiting for the VE HSV. When the car is released and sales are 20 HSV's to 1 FPV we can come revisit this thread and laugh. I like the BA/BF, not so fussed on the BF2, its an underwhelming release thats for sure. IMO Ford is on par with Mitsubishi and not in the same league as Holden. The BFII is more a whitegoods car than anything that stokes the fire.

[FocusRsCosworth]

Hahahaha, where on earth did you pull that figure from? Yes FPV have been outselling HSV, but not by that big a margin. Last time I checked they were pretty even, the difference between them was a single digit.

A single digit?? I DONT THINK SO :rofl:

[Freaky]

LOL.. what a funny man. You expect sales of HSV in the few months prior to a new platform release to stay the same or drop from previous levels? OF COURSE they drop. We are waiting for the VE HSV. When the car is released and sales are 20 HSV's to 1 FPV we can come revisit this thread and laugh. I like the BA/BF, not so fussed on the BF2, its an underwhelming release thats for sure. IMO Ford is on par with Mitsubishi and not in the same league as Holden. The BFII is more a whitegoods car than anything that stokes the fire.

You think FPV will just sit back and not react the the VE HSV. They will have something up their sleeve no doubt.

In 3 short years they are outselling HSV's. Even if it is by a very small margin. I'm sick of hearing everyone is waiting for this new model crap. Nonsense.

[F6 Hoon]

After seeing the VE's in the flesh today, I think the blue oval boys had better start worrying. Their sales with the BF are struggling, after seeing the BF II leaked pics I'd say the gap will grow even larger.

Go the VE .....:bow:

I doubt that very much......personally, I can't wait to see a VE Calais with 20" wheels next to the F6 :rofl:

[FocusRsCosworth]

LOL.. what a funny man. You expect sales of HSV in the few months prior to a new platform release to stay the same or drop from previous levels? OF COURSE they drop. We are waiting for the VE HSV. When the car is released and sales are 20 HSV's to 1 FPV we can come revisit this thread and laugh. I like the BA/BF, not so fussed on the BF2, its an underwhelming release thats for sure. IMO Ford is on par with Mitsubishi and not in the same league as Holden. The BFII is more a whitegoods car than anything that stokes the fire.

Dude, From the time the FPV Variants came out till now we have been outselling HSV quite a bit... VE Variants we will have to wait and see... dont count ya chickens before they are hatched. Thats all i can tell you. I can tell you the same thing when the Orion Arrives but then you can come back and revisit this thread also.. goes both ways. :)

[FocusRsCosworth]

You think FPV will just sit back and not react the the VE HSV. They will have something up their sleeve no doubt.

In 3 short years they are outselling HSV's. Even if it is by a very small margin. I'm sick of hearing everyone is waiting for this new model crap. Nonsense.

Freaky im sure they will, this is all a seasaw effect :)

[FocusRsCosworth]

I doubt that very much......personally, I can't wait to see a VE Calais with 20" wheels next to the F6 :rofl:


Yeah well NEW CAR - to OLD CAR :) im sure the VE will stand out, but then wait till the FORCE 6 comes out and the 8 :) and then we can talk again :)

[F6 Hoon]

In the current climate, Ford might have been better served by going gun-ho on marketing the e-Gas options, which now include Fairmont and XR6 ute, particularly when Holden haven't made significant improvements in economy (which you can't engineer for unless you've got a crystal ball). Holden might want to push forward the release of the dual-fuel alloytec option for VE.

Agreed. Ford should really focus on fitting the LandRover Discovery 3 Turbo diesel engine in either one of it's sedans or Utilities in the BFII, like Holden did with the 6.0l in the VZ. It will give them time to iron out any defects and release a powerplant in the Orion which should give them a competitive advantage over the opposition.

I'd really fancy both new 'Orion' F6 and a turbo diesel Falcon of somesort when I next upgrade.

In the mean time I'll keep reading why the BFII is 11 reasons better than the VE :)

[vecommo]

Pot calling the kettle black there mate :confused:

Both bosses have said similar comments.... Mooney criticed the Falcon weight a while back saying they will be heavier on fuel economy, yet they have a slight advantage over commodore in a few models in lt/100km. But as head of their respective companies in Australia, naturally they will talk with a bias towards their own brand

I like the VE, I'm not overly convinced of the BFII yet, but the quote above doesnt really show a great deal of maturity :rofl:

BS.

Holden have made only a few comments here and there regarding the opposition's products, whereas Ford release entire press statements dedicated to rubbishing and degrading Holden's new VE and glorifying the BF.
You'd have to be blind not to see the difference.

[HSE2]

BS.

Holden have made only a few comments here and there regarding the opposition's products, whereas Ford release entire press statements dedicated to rubbishing and degrading Holden's new VE and glorifying the BF.
You'd have to be blind not to see the difference.


Holden boss wants Ford's gas guzzler outlawed

By Toby Hagon
December 10 2002

Holden took a swipe at arch-rival Ford yesterday as it called for the Federal Government to force the development of more environmentally friendly cars.

The nation's biggest car maker said that any increase in fuel consumption - such as the minor one recently initiated by Ford with its heavily revised Falcon - was "inexcusable".

Speaking yesterday at a lunch to outline the company's busiest year of new product releases in its 54-year history, Holden's chairman and managing director, Peter Hanenberger, said the increasing demands of export markets should encourage Australian car manufacturers to improve efficiency.

"One thing that has concerned me about the fuel economy debate in this country has been the line that 'It's only a few extra dollars a week'," said Mr Hanenberger. "We are talking about a finite resource and deteriorating fuel economy performance is inexcusable.

"It becomes harder to protect Australia's environmental quality if some car makers take a 'few extra dollars a week' approach."


Holden has set its own internal goals for 2010 ahead of an imminent government move to impose strict economy guidelines, similar to those enforced upon United States car makers in the form of the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regulations.

"The industry has proposed to the Federal Government that a national fuel consumption average of 6.8 litres per 100 kilometres could be achieved by 2010 if the right environment is in place," Mr Hanenberger said.

However, critics believe that Holden is clutching on to one of a handful of advantages its latest Commodore has over the vastly improved Ford Falcon. The BA Falcon has been widely praised as having made a huge leap forward to the point where it is now the benchmark in the fiercely-contested large car class.

But Holden still holds on to a fuel economy advantage at a time when the new Falcon uses more fuel than its predecessor due to a significantly heavier body. Ford's general manager of communications, Louise Teesdale, said the added weight in the Falcon was unfortunate, but necessary.

"We would have preferred not to inherit a small disadvantage in fuel economy, but that was partially a pay-off for the expensive additional safety equipment that was incorporated into this car," Ms Teesdale said.

Holden also announced plans for a $6 million research and development hub in Port Melbourne that will create more jobs and help cement the company's long-term plans as a global manufacturer of niche products.

Mr Hanenberger said the centre - dubbed Holden Innovation - would promote product innovation as well as innovation in safety, information technology and crash avoidance.

"These areas will extend Holden's planning capabilities well beyond generally applied horizons of five years," Mr Hanenberger said.

[Road Warrior]

Someone's just been

http://fapomatic.com/0632/alibabas_0wnd.jpg

[vecommo]

As I wasn't talking about VZ its a bit hard to ignore but just out of interest what did they change? How does this change from testing done on VT. Didn't the VT score well form the get go?

If you don't know the answer to this then it shows how little you really know.
The VY update included many improvements and significant strengthening to it's body structure which resulted in a 4 star safety rating as opposed to 3 stars for VT/VX. The 4 star rating puts it on par with the BA which underwent a far more substantial rework.
What I'm trying to say is that while the engineering that went into the BA might sound flash and glamorous on paper, the VY wasn't actually THAT far behind as people have been led to believe.... Having said that, I also believe that the VE is not playing catchup to the BF, but is a full generation ahead of the BF.

[vecommo]

Thats the ugliest piece of shit ive ever seen.

Talk about 10 steps back on what they had, they could have left it how it was and just upgraded the specifications, that front end is ****ed!!!

The VE certainly has it over Ford :bow:

Me wants a Calais V now.

That's certainly a change of tune from the crap you were dribbling last week.

[351 Mach1]

Holden boss wants Ford's gas guzzler outlawed

By Toby Hagon
December 10 2002

LOL
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346/$file/2004.07.28_HSV_Crennan.jpg?OpenElement
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346?OpenDocument

[HSE2]

If you don't know the answer to this then it shows how little you really know.


You caught me. I know nothing. Mum says I have to go to bed now so I will have to say good night.

[FocusRsCosworth]

LOL
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346/$file/2004.07.28_HSV_Crennan.jpg?OpenElement
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346?OpenDocument

hehehe thats so FUNNY!! :) Thats why we have been outselling HSV. Mr Crennan!! LOL!!::burnout:

[vecommo]

Holden boss wants Ford's gas guzzler outlawed

By Toby Hagon
December 10 2002

Holden took a swipe at arch-rival Ford yesterday as it called for the Federal Government to force the development of more environmentally friendly cars.

The nation's biggest car maker said that any increase in fuel consumption - such as the minor one recently initiated by Ford with its heavily revised Falcon - was "inexcusable".

Speaking yesterday at a lunch to outline the company's busiest year of new product releases in its 54-year history, Holden's chairman and managing director, Peter Hanenberger, said the increasing demands of export markets should encourage Australian car manufacturers to improve efficiency.

"One thing that has concerned me about the fuel economy debate in this country has been the line that 'It's only a few extra dollars a week'," said Mr Hanenberger. "We are talking about a finite resource and deteriorating fuel economy performance is inexcusable.

"It becomes harder to protect Australia's environmental quality if some car makers take a 'few extra dollars a week' approach."


Holden has set its own internal goals for 2010 ahead of an imminent government move to impose strict economy guidelines, similar to those enforced upon United States car makers in the form of the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regulations.

"The industry has proposed to the Federal Government that a national fuel consumption average of 6.8 litres per 100 kilometres could be achieved by 2010 if the right environment is in place," Mr Hanenberger said.

However, critics believe that Holden is clutching on to one of a handful of advantages its latest Commodore has over the vastly improved Ford Falcon. The BA Falcon has been widely praised as having made a huge leap forward to the point where it is now the benchmark in the fiercely-contested large car class.

But Holden still holds on to a fuel economy advantage at a time when the new Falcon uses more fuel than its predecessor due to a significantly heavier body. Ford's general manager of communications, Louise Teesdale, said the added weight in the Falcon was unfortunate, but necessary.

"We would have preferred not to inherit a small disadvantage in fuel economy, but that was partially a pay-off for the expensive additional safety equipment that was incorporated into this car," Ms Teesdale said.

Holden also announced plans for a $6 million research and development hub in Port Melbourne that will create more jobs and help cement the company's long-term plans as a global manufacturer of niche products.

Mr Hanenberger said the centre - dubbed Holden Innovation - would promote product innovation as well as innovation in safety, information technology and crash avoidance.

"These areas will extend Holden's planning capabilities well beyond generally applied horizons of five years," Mr Hanenberger said.


And what is your point with this?
It's an article dated 2002 with a few passing comments made by somebody who doesn't even work for Holden any more.
You can't possibly compare that with this:http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1957859.aspx
The article smacks of desperation and is a clear blatant attempt of directly rubbishing Holden's product.

[351 Mach1]

You can't possibly compare that with this:http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1957859.aspx
The article smacks of desperation and is a clear blatant attempt of directly rubbishing Holden's product.
that was just a leaked document...

[HSE2]

And what is your point with this?
It's an article dated 2002 with a few passing comments made by somebody who doesn't even work for Holden any more.
You can't possibly compare that with this:http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1957859.aspx
The article smacks of desperation and is a clear blatant attempt of directly rubbishing Holden's product.

Words - Joe Kenwright

[vecommo]

Words - Joe Kenwright

A summary of the 11 areas where Ford claims it has the VE on the ropes include:

1.VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.
2.VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.
3.VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.
4.VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.
5.VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.
6.Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.
7.BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).
8.BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.
9.The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)
10.BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.
11.There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs

[HSE2]

Ok this is the last I am saying on this but if you are saying this is an attempt to "rubbish" the VE you have lost the plot.

"Publication of what purports to be a leaked document from Ford's sales department on popular Holden forum, LS1.com.au. The document, which Ford sources have not discounted"

That my friend isn't enough to make your claim but for argument sake let's say they did send something like this out to the sales department.

In a competitive market companies have the right to promote the advantages they believe they hold over the competition. It’s the job of the consumer to make the judgement on worth or credibility. So unless you are contesting any of those alleged Ford assertions then what are you trying to say?

Does the VE have a split fold rear seat?
Is aircon a $2000 dollar option?

Are they lies or are they misrepresenting anything or are they stating facts!

Or are you saying Ford should just roll over and tell their staff to send people over to Holden. Its Fords job to muddy the water as much as possible for VE, just as the GM at the time tried to do for BA. That’s business.

If that’s all you have got then you have as much as Fords 11 points. Nothing note worthy.

[vecommo]

Are they lies or are they misrepresenting anything or are they stating facts!



2.VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.

So how are they allowed to make a statement such as this without any form of technical evidence to back up their claims?
What exactly is more advanced about the falcon engine compared to the Alloytec???

[FocusRsCosworth]

So how are they allowed to make a statement such as this without any form of technical evidence to back up their claims?
What exactly is more advanced about the falcon engine compared to the Alloytec???

Well if they are saying it im sure they probably know it, either way like HSE2 said its business. Ford and Holden will try and sell their product in any way possible, even without the facts.

[Nobby]

Although sometimes factually inaccurate, this is a pretty good thread. Good points from both sides and plenty of opinion about too (and usualy labled as such, to everyones benefit).

But vecommo is a waste of oxygen.

[BossV8]

Although sometimes factually inaccurate, this is a pretty good thread. Good points from both sides and plenty of opinion about too (and usualy labled as such, to everyones benefit).

But vecommo is a waste of oxygen.

You get such morries on forums :rofl:

My days of rubbishing the other product are over, I realise that we have a great choice of fine cars in Australia and it's no use crapping all over the other brand because you like one brand better. The last few years we've seen Ford guy's go buy HSV's or SS's, and we've seen Holden guys get into Ford turbo's or Terri's. Depends what tickles thy fancy!

[SV805]

You get such morries on forums :rofl:

My days of rubbishing the other product are over, I realise that we have a great choice of fine cars in Australia and it's no use crapping all over the other brand because you like one brand better. The last few years we've seen Ford guy's go buy HSV's or SS's, and we've seen Holden guys get into Ford turbo's or Terri's. Depends what tickles thy fancy!


Well said BOSS V8..............I am pretty tied of allthe mine is bigger than yours crap......At the end of the day both Ford and Holden fans have better cars to drive due to teh competition

[VooDoo]

Dude, From the time the FPV Variants came out till now we have been outselling HSV quite a bit... VE Variants we will have to wait and see... dont count ya chickens before they are hatched. Thats all i can tell you. I can tell you the same thing when the Orion Arrives but then you can come back and revisit this thread also.. goes both ways. :)


Prove it then. NONE of the stats ive seen show FPV anywhere near HSV. Go for a drive, MANY more HSV's on the roads. The only car Ford has that competes is the F6. The GT is more inline with the SS. Go look at total performance vehicle sales and Holden would wipe the floor with ford (ie SS, SV8, etc). Of course the XR6 isnt a performance vehicle as its slower than the XT

1. VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon

Show me a 13.63 sec STOCK BossV8 equiped car. Power means nothing at the engine. Its how its delivered that matters. Holden wins!

2. VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190

The Alloytec V6 190 has VVT on both intake and exhaust. Plus having tech for tech's sake doesnt mean its better. The BossV8 is "tech" better than the LS1 but gets owned by it. Even old school low tech pushrods have their place. Why can nobody actually state WHY the barra is supposed to be better

3. VE Commodore does not offer 6-speed automatic transmission on any 6 cylinder models

Again, so what. Tech and wanky spec's dont make a car better in the real world. Does the 6 speed in the BF actually achive anything or is it just there to look good on paper.

4. VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. Fuel consumption ranges from 10.9L/100km to 14.4L/100km

Larger than the older VZ yet still lighter than the ford. 0.2L/100k's "claimed" improvement over the Holden can come down to driving style. Edit the L98 and it will get WAY more power and better ecconomy anyway.


5. VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option

So what. I dont want to see VE taxi's. You dont by a V8 for fuel usage. Minimal demand and reducing market due to the future introduction of additional tax on gas due in 2007. LPG IS available on the Omega anyway

6. Air conditioning is a $2,000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega

Air conditioning is a NON-deletable option. Even with the $2000 its still cheaper than the XT (need to check that, im 90% sure it is)

7. VE Commodore comes standard with a space saver spare wheel across the range

the space saver is lighter. I have no issues with this as a spare, its not like i ever used one in the past 10 yrs.


8. VE Commodore's improved luggage capacity comes as a result of a space saver spare wheel. Even then, Falcon still has more luggage capacity

8L total differance. Big deal. Holdens FLAT boot is still much better than the lumpy unusable BA/BF boot. If holden made a lumpy boot they would easily regain that 8L

9. The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore

No sh!t, they are bigger, better performing tyres. Why would they be cheaper than lesser tyres?


10. VE Commodore's rear seating has a centre section fold-down only
Who cares?

11. There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007

Who cares. VZ and 1 tonners are available for those that need them.

[kart_racer]

# VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.

-Based on what? The VE can corner much faster than the VZ (and most likely the BF), so it should have an awesome laptime, and I can't see the Fords beating the SSV 0-100 times either.

# VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.

-Even though the Alloytec produces more power with much less capacity?

# VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.

-Wow... And just how many gears does one need? More ratios does not make a car better...

# VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.

-And the Falcon has ALWAYS been this heavy, and doesn't have the safety systems and body strength of the VE, or the advanced suspension that has increased the Commodore's weight.

# VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.

-Yet...

# Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.

-There is a V Series Commodore coming out in a month which will be standard with A/C and alloys and seriously undercut the price of the XT.

# BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).

-A VE with a full-size spare option is still cheaper than the Falcon.

# BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.

-So you can pack 4 extra bottles of milk into the boot...not much to sell a car on.

# The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)

Just means that standard tyres on an Omega are better quality than those provided by Ford, so the Commodore grips better, therefore stops sooner and is a safer car. Cheaper replacements will be available by the time they are required.

# BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.

Ok. But this list should be re-titled "One and a half features the Falcon has over a car that completely outclasses it in every other way"

# There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs

The VZE Wagon and Ute are still great cars and will have all of the features of the VE.

Voodoo, this was posted a few pages back. Maybe we can get a few more rebuttals together and ask drive.com.au to make a story out of it for us...

So do we know who wrote the original 11 arguments thing?

To them I say :flipoff:

[SV99]

This nit picking is getting a little out of hand.

when it comes down to it. They are both fun and transport.....


So who cares what the **** drive or anyone else says. Go and drive the things and be happy. :flipoff:

[F6 Hoon]

LOL
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346/$file/2004.07.28_HSV_Crennan.jpg?OpenElement
http://ausmotorsearch.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/4B252B4B5FDFF8A7CA256EDF00065346?OpenDocument

Hehehe, what a cretin, John Crennan is.

If only he had a crystal ball to see how well the F6 would sell. His DTS 6.0l Clubsport with semi race tyres couldn't manage to score Motor's PCOTY. Infact, the DTS couldn't even knock off 2 run of the mill A6/M6 BF XR6 Turbos. How weak. And as for FPV's sale, they're a whole lot better now than what they were back in '04. Last sales figures indicate FPV is outselling HSV.

This guy must be very familiar with the taste of humble pie.

[lowriding]

This thread looks like its straight off Ford Forums. Intelligence displayed throughout is about on par with threads over there too....:flipoff:

[Ghosn]

This thread looks like its straight off Ford Forums. Intelligence displayed throughout is about on par with threads over there too....:flipoff:

That's why Im keeping out, it's nothing but a slanging match now with only a few good posts thrown into the mix. It's good to be passionate but best way to do it is buy the car u prefer and enjoy it for what it is.

[BadMac]

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

HSV Versus FPV.
the numbers can be found on Vfacts if you want further proof.

FPV overtook HSV in June for the first time on year to date sales (I understand its first time ever, but others may know for sure).

1151 FPV's have been sold in the first half of 2006.
1137 HSV's have been sold in the first half of 2006.

For those who can't count that means FPV have sold 14 more cars this year. 4x as many is complete crap!!!
The month by month figures are also available, and its random who sold more each month, FPV (F6's???) are trending upwards, but:

HSV is expected to regain the lead again when the V series goes on sale in October. May/June/July were expected to be lean months as people sat back and waited for VE to release. HSV had scaled back production and have now stopped, the last Z series cars are now out there and HSV are retooling for E series.

[SS_Fury]

seem to be alot of the blue oval brigade here on this thread - perhaps the title was enough to rile some feathers. But back to the original topic - the BF2 is fugly guys, but its just mk2 - hell the series 2 options in holdens didnt even really have any facelifts. Hopefully for Ford, Orion will be better.

[BadMac]

Guys cut the crap, this thread is not about mine is bigger than yours or who is more childish.

Its about a look at what Ford are doing in response to the VE while we wait to see if/how Orion raises the bar again.

If you want to have a slanging match please go to one of the blog sites which such crap is the norm.

This Forum/thread is slowly declining from one of the more mature reasoned ones where people celebrated cars of all kinds (particularly those with LS1/LS2/LS4's, but also I6, V6 and V8's). I guess thats what happens when you get popular, the 10% dickheads that are present in any society suddenly equal a large (real) number of children/immature antisocials.

Oh well maybe the moderators can carry through on their holdiay threats and attempt to regain control or else more of us will find other pursuits to invest our time in. :soap:

[BadMac]

A summary of the 11 areas where Ford claims it has the VE on the ropes include:

1.VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon.
2.VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190.
3.VE Commodore does not offer six-speed automatic transmission on any six-cylinder models.
4.VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. BF Falcon can achieve fuel consumption as low as 10.2lt/100km on the Barra 190 engine with six-speed automatic transmission.
5.VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.
6.Air-conditioning is a $2000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega. Air-conditioning comes standard on the BF Falcon XT.
7.BF Falcon comes with a full-size spare wheel standard across the range including wagon and Ute (excluding E-Gas).
8.BF Falcon has a luggage capacity of 504lt with a full-size spare wheel compared to VE Commodore at 496lt.
9.The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore. A set of four new tyres on the VE Commodore Omega costs $928 RRP (or $232 RRP each) compared to the BF Falcon XT, Futura or Fairmont at $569.52 RRP (or $142.38 RRP each)
10.BF Falcon offers a 60/40 split fold-down rear seat back.
11.There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007. GM-Holden Ute no longer offers a Chassis Cab (i.e. One Tonner) while Falcon Ute offers a full range of XL, XLS and RTV Chassis Cabs


If you are really worried about this list then think of it this way.

Heres the ONLY 11 things Fords marketing department could come up with were Falcon beats VE.

[351 Mach1]

Of course the XR6 isnt a performance vehicle as its slower than the XT
not as slow as an SV6 or the entire Holden V6 range...


1. VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon

Show me a 13.63 sec STOCK BossV8 equiped car. Power means nothing at the engine. Its how its delivered that matters. Holden wins!
It's been done... I know a dead stock BA GT than ran a 13.59 a couple of years ago and an XR8 13.7/13.8.

[Aus8]

The A6 GT's are regularly putting down 13.6/7's at the drags over here. Remember they are bigger cars than the VZ's so its always going to be harder. Longer, wider and heavier.

BF A6 F6 do 12.9 stocko so that is still the benchmark.

Aus8

[BlueVZSS]

Voodoo, this was posted a few pages back. Maybe we can get a few more rebuttals together and ask drive.com.au to make a story out of it for us...

So do we know who wrote the original 11 arguments thing?



The "11 reasons" apparently come from an E-Mail sent internally by Ford Marketing that someone "leaked". My contribution:

1. VE Commodore will not perform as well as the BF Falcon

This is an easy statement to make and hard to prove. Opinion will vary depending on how performance is defined. There are few objective tests of “performance” that can be used to benchmark results. Those generally quoted by manufacturers are:
0-100 km/h times; and
Standing 400 metre times.

Ford quotes no performance figures on their website or in their brochures so one has to conclude that it is a subjective opinion.

Further, the statement from Ford must relate to Holden vehicles, since the HSV vehicles have not been released.

2. VE Commodore's Alloytec engine is not as technologically advanced as Falcon's Barra 190

Once again, this is an easy statement to make and hard to prove. For a consumer, one would expect to see how this translates into some sort of benefit. Without more information, we are left with bald assertion of opinion.

It should be noted however that the Alloytec does produce more power with less capacity. This would in most peoples language suggest a more efficient engine in the Holden.

3. VE Commodore does not offer 6-speed automatic transmission on any 6 cylinder models

True. Yet again the consumer is not told how this translates into a benefit.

4. VE Commodore is larger and heavier than its predecessor. Fuel consumption ranges from 10.9L/100km to 14.4L/100km

Based on objective evidence that permits benchmarking, this is true. Ford Falcon has weighed considerably more than Commodore more for some time now however.

5. VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option

True but a dual fuel option is coming later in the year. Few people want it anyway given the upfront costs and mileage required to get a decent return on investment.

6. Air conditioning is a $2,000 optional extra on the VE Commodore Omega

True but offset against that is improved safety such as ESP, better tyres, 50/50 weight distribution, a new model with no doubt better resale than a BF (time will tell), better looks (again subjective but the BF does look dated by comparison), etc and it doesn’t seem much of a price to pay for all that. In any event, the V Series will be on sale shortly until the end of the year that offers Air Conditioning and alloys as a no cost extra.

7. VE Commodore comes standard with a space saver spare wheel across the range

True but a common industry practice. A $250 upgrade gets an equivalent wheel and more expensive tyre than the Falcon. It sounds like exceptionally good value to me.

8. VE Commodore's improved luggage capacity comes as a result of a space saver spare wheel. Even then, Falcon still has more luggage capacity

True but an extra 8Litres is not much to crow about. The shape of the boot in the Commodore is superior for storing luggage anyway, making it more useable and useful.

9. The cost of replacing original tyres has increased on VE Commodore

True but the tyres are better than the Falcon. A better tyre generally equals better performance and safety.

10. VE Commodore's rear seating has a centre section fold-down only

True but not much to hang your hat on.

11. There is no VE wagon or Ute until late 2007

True but upgraded VZs and One Tonners are available with updated VE features. The upgrade in this case is equivalent to the BF2 upgrade, so, comparatively speaking, consumers have not lost much.

[vecommo]

BF A6 F6 do 12.9 stocko so that is still the benchmark.
Aus8

Benchmark my a$$. Show me some official ford or motor/wheels figures, not some hearsay where a mate of a mate of a mate saw some bloke running 12.9 down at the local track.

[Aus8]

Benchmark my a$$. Show me some official ford or motor/wheels figures, not some hearsay where a mate of a mate of a mate saw some bloke running 12.9 down at the local track.


Common knowlegde mate. Even CSV_LS1 (Valued member here) has seen it with his own eyes. He has run 13.1 stock as a rock in his own example.

Why would I lie? It is well known this car (F6 A6) is the benchmark since the A6 was released in the model. If you want a Motor comparo (dont know why you want it) PCOTY a few months back it was the only car the crack a 13 out of GT,XR8,XR6T's,6L SS's,CLubby DTS, 6L HSV coupe.

Cheers

Aus8

[351 Mach1]

Benchmark my a$$. Show me some official ford or motor/wheels figures, not some hearsay where a mate of a mate of a mate saw some bloke running 12.9 down at the local track.

only 12 year olds take notice of what times wheels/motor magazine do and who cares what "official" figures Ford gives... the F6 is also "officially" 270 kw :)

[SS_Fury]

i knew the f6 was a quick bit of kit, i didnt know the current GT's were that quick though

[nang3]

Benchmark my a$$. Show me some official ford or motor/wheels figures, not some hearsay where a mate of a mate of a mate saw some bloke running 12.9 down at the local track.

mate there are numerous Auto phoons getting low 13's STOCK, and a handful getting under 13.. its not a mate of a mate type thing, its a fact.

[vecommo]

You Ford guys are such a touchy lot aren't you.:stick:

I am not denying that they are quick, however I have never seen an officially published time of better than 13.7 for the f6.
If people are bettering these times then there must be a reason for it and it would be safe to assume that the equivalent Holdens would also be bettering their official times.
My argument is against Aus8's claim that the 12.9 is a benchmark. As it is not officially recorded then it cannot be considered a benchmark. Can you see where I'm coming from?

[Aus8]

You Ford guys are such a touchy lot aren't you.:stick:

I am not denying that they are quick, however I have never seen an officially published time of better than 13.7 for the f6.
If people are bettering these times then there must be a reason for it and it would be safe to assume that the equivalent Holdens would also be bettering their official times.
My argument is against Aus8's claim that the 12.9 is a benchmark. As it is not officially recorded then it cannot be considered a benchmark. Can you see where I'm coming from?


#1 I aint a Ford guy. How official do you need? Go down the drags and see for yourself. Magazine times and figures quoted from manufacturers mean nothing to 99% of us on this forum. As they have been proven useless.

The equivailent Holdens are bettering their times too from magazines and manufacturer quotes. What Im saying is the A6 F6 is just quicker stock vs stock. This is well known by us long time members on here as we have seen the only proof that counts. (ET's at the drags.)

Cheers

Aus8

[flappist]

The article in MOTOR magazine was quite interesting, particularly the 400m time of 13.63.

This is quite impressive for the bog standard 270kw manual SS demonstration vehicle as tested by the MOTOR journos particularly as in the rear of the same magazine the HSV Z series models with a lighter body, 297kw higher performance version of the VE engine and same gearbox managed to do 13.61 in the clubsport, 14.01 in the R8 and 14.00 in the GTO.
The 5.35 0-100km/h was even more spectactular when compared to 5.65, 5.83 and 5.79 of the other three.

I seem to remember a Z series HSV 0-100km/h of 4.99 from a demonstration vehicle as tested by the same journos some time ago that for some strange reason has never been able to be repeated in another similar vehicle in any subsequent test, comparison or PCOTY.

Curiouser and curiouser said the walrus........

[vecommo]

#1 I aint a Ford guy. How official do you need? Go down the drags and see for yourself. Magazine times and figures quoted from manufacturers mean nothing to 99% of us on this forum. As they have been proven useless.

The equivailent Holdens are bettering their times too from magazines and manufacturer quotes. What Im saying is the A6 F6 is just quicker stock vs stock. This is well known by us long time members on here as we have seen the only proof that counts. (ET's at the drags.)

Cheers

Aus8

Ok then, using your logic, put it this way - the f6 runs a 13.7 in a magazine test but somebody runs a 12.9 in one at the drags.
A variety of HSV have achieved 13.3's in magazine tests, so that must mean that at the drags they should be capable of at least 12.5's.
It just seems that the Ford guys have created a somewhat one sided argument by comparing slower official Holden times with quicker unofficial Ford times.

[Aus8]

Ok then, using your logic, put it this way - the f6 runs a 13.7 in a magazine test but somebody runs a 12.9 in one at the drags.
A variety of HSV have achieved 13.3's in magazine tests, so that must mean that at the drags they should be capable of at least 12.5's.
It just seems that the Ford guys have created a somewhat one sided argument by comparing slower official Holden times with quicker unofficial Ford times.

See this is where you are missing the point. Magazine times are not official times as you state. Official times are done at the drag strip. I see your a new member here we have had some previous threads on here before re the F6 times. It is no question it is the quickest car out at the moment stock vs stock time. Hopefully the VE can better this.

It isnt the Ford guys speculating these times. Our very own long time respected members on this site (CSV_LS1 et al) have all raced these cars down the strip stock and got these impressive times.


Cheers

Aus8

[vecommo]

Magazine times are not official times as you state. Official times are done at the drag strip

Most magazine test are also done at drag strips.

[Aus8]

Ok then, using your logic, put it this way - the f6 runs a 13.7 in a magazine test but somebody runs a 12.9 in one at the drags.
A variety of HSV have achieved 13.3's in magazine tests, so that must mean that at the drags they should be capable of at least 12.5's.
It just seems that the Ford guys have created a somewhat one sided argument by comparing slower official Holden times with quicker unofficial Ford times.

Why hasnt anyone gone down the drags and run a 12.5 in a 100% stock HSV then? I have been involved in drag racing LS1's for a very long time and I Can tell you 12.5 stock is not possible. Where I have seen A F6 A6 BF run a 13.1 at the strip driven out of the showroom.

Aus8

[flappist]

Most magazine test are also done at drag strips.

Actually no they are not, they are done on any available surface whether that be the straight of a circuit track, airstrip or drag strip. In all cases they use their own timing system not the official one at the track.

[Aus8]

Most magazine test are also done at drag strips.

As mentioned above if you are so into your "Official" times of the car from the magazine test. The last Motor PCOTY featuring the new F6 with the A6 was the only car to post a 13 sec pass. The Clubby DTS,XR6T,GT,SS,HSV Coupe, XR8 could not crack the 13. All tested in same conditions same day. So even using your logic (using the term loosely) the F6 is tops.

As I said though im surpised you are doubting the A6 F6 as being the quickest stock car out at the moment as it has been well known for a while even amongst us Holden camp since the A6 version came out and proven with the best indicator out there, A drag strip. It is suprising though but what you will find is the 270fwkw is very very understated by Ford as to try not to knock off their V8 sales. You will find most F6's putting down more rwkw's than a GT.

Aus8

[F6 Hoon]

Benchmark my a$$. Show me some official ford or motor/wheels figures, not some hearsay where a mate of a mate of a mate saw some bloke running 12.9 down at the local track.

The manufacturers are not allowed to. It's against the advertising standards.

12.7-13.1's are the norm for a stock standard BF F6 A6.

[F6 Hoon]

As mentioned above if you are so into your "Official" times of the car from the magazine test. The last Motor PCOTY featuring the new F6 with the A6 was the only car to post a 13 sec pass. The Clubby DTS,XR6T,GT,SS,HSV Coupe, XR8 could not crack the 13. All tested in same conditions same day. So even using your logic (using the term loosely) the F6 is tops.

As I said though im surpised you are doubting the A6 F6 as being the quickest stock car out at the moment as it has been well known for a while even amongst us Holden camp since the A6 version came out and proven with the best indicator out there, A drag strip. It is suprising though but what you will find is the 270fwkw is very very understated by Ford as to try not to knock off their V8 sales. You will find most F6's putting down more rwkw's than a GT.

Aus8

Hehehe, a LS1 driver defending the F6. Not everyday you see that :hide:

Most GT/GT-P's make around 10 rwkw less than the BF F6. Personally, I think FPV's stated 270kw for the F6 was achieved on 91 octane fuel, with the engine pinging and the pcm retarding the timing to limit power.

I think a BFII Fairmont Ghia with a XR6T/F6 auto combined with the ZF auto would be nice to line up against one of these VE 6.0l Calais with 20" wheels. Would make for a good comparison :cool:

[BlueVZSS]

Hehehe, a LS1 driver defending the F6. Not everyday you see that :hide:

Most GT/GT-P's make around 10 rwkw less than the BF F6. Personally, I think FPV's stated 270kw for the F6 was achieved on 91 octane fuel, with the engine pinging and the pcm retarding the timing to limit power.

I think a BFII Fairmont Ghia with a XR6T/F6 auto combined with the ZF auto would be nice to line up against one of these VE 6.0l Calais with 20" wheels. Would make for a good comparison :cool:


It is not hard to see why the F6 Typhoon outperforms the GT/GT-P:

Torque:

The F6 has 550 NM @ 2000 to 4250 RPM Vs 520 nm @ 4500 RPM in the GT/GT-P.

More torque is available in the F6 across a wider rev range.

This is why the VE performance figures will be interesting. Similar levels of torque are available in the VE V8 (530 nm @ 4400 RPM). The Holden V8s may not have the F6 covered but I suspect that they have the GT/GT-P beaten. HSV VE perfomance will probably be line ball with the F6. Time will tell.

FPV specifications are based on 95 RON so a tankful of 98 RON from the dealer will probably ensure better performance from the showroom floor. VE specifications are based on 98 RON (I think) but Ford figures are DIN while Holden figures are ECE.

[saleen1]

I'm not a fan of the look of the new BF II in those pics. Lucky we still have the Typhoon that will smoke anything Holden/HSV can churn out with their 6 million litre dynosaur boat anchors. The New VE looks awesome in pics, didn't look too flash on the back of a transporter on Friday though. Their rear end is u.g.l.y, and it aint got no al-a-by.

[BlueVZSS]

I'm not a fan of the look of the new BF II in those pics. Lucky we still have the Typhoon that will smoke anything Holden/HSV can churn out with their 6 million litre dynosaur boat anchors. The New VE looks awesome in pics, didn't look too flash on the back of a transporter on Friday though. Their rear end is u.g.l.y, and it aint got no al-a-by.

I hope your opinion of the rear end improves because you are going to be seeing a lot of it.:rofl:

[Dacious]

Yep, great. Fantastic. Top Post

[Carby650]

I understand motor will be doing a Fraud and Ve test next issue. Will be interested in those results from a non performance issue. I don't care as much about the mines bigger then yours issues but more about how they rate the 2 cars on issues like build quality , handling and comfort and the sort.

[Dilan]

Holden/HSV can churn out with their 6 million litre dynosaur boat anchors. .

are you like 6 years old?

[vecommo]

It is not hard to see why the F6 Typhoon outperforms the GT/GT-P:

Torque:

The F6 has 550 NM @ 2000 to 4250 RPM Vs 520 nm @ 4500 RPM in the GT/GT-P.

More torque is available in the F6 across a wider rev range.

This is why the VE performance figures will be interesting. Similar levels of torque are available in the VE V8 (530 nm @ 4400 RPM). The Holden V8s may not have the F6 covered but I suspect that they have the GT/GT-P beaten. HSV VE perfomance will probably be line ball with the F6. Time will tell.

FPV specifications are based on 95 RON so a tankful of 98 RON from the dealer will probably ensure better performance from the showroom floor. VE specifications are based on 98 RON (I think) but Ford figures are DIN while Holden figures are ECE.

Why have you all got your knickers in a knot defending the F6? I was never denying that they are quick, I was only disputing the way Aus8 was using an unofficial figure to claim something as a benchmark. Thats all.


are you like 6 years old?

That is an insult to 6 year olds.

[Aus8]

As mentioned above twice already magazine tests are not "official times". The only time that gives a good indicator of the car is the 1/4 mile on a proper drag strip. You seem to be having trobule getting it even after it being explained to you.

Cheers

Aus8

[saleen1]

I hope your opinion of the rear end improves because you are going to be seeing a lot of it.:rofl:
What makes you think I'm going to park behind a VE? I don't even attend the Sydney Gay Mardi Gras!

:flip2:

[vecommo]

As mentioned above twice already magazine tests are not "official times". The only time that gives a good indicator of the car is the 1/4 mile on a proper drag strip. You seem to be having trobule getting it even after it being explained to you.

Cheers

Aus8

Well you can believe what you like, but in my eyes the published figures are more official and credible than some hearsay about someone who supposedly ran some times at the local strip. This argument is getting tiring, I have said what I think and can't be bothered continuing it any further.

[Evil LS1]

And a few other bits, like most of the engine, gearboxes & diffs etc.

Yes the AU won the prize as the world's ugliest car, so I suspect that is why Ford re-designed most of the body but the BA/F is evolutionary, not revolutionary.



Absolutely not true. Pick any Toyota model you care to name and it's uglier, especially the camry. AU was shocking, Camry is just traumatic. :doh:

Holden has the jump for now and VE does sound like a world class car (don't mention the shit box 4spd auto though). However in 12-18 months ford will have their all new baby and it "should" be at the same level again. I'm hoping ford won't make the same mistakes as holden on size and weight and drop the size a bit and at least hold weight the same.
Ford has massive overhangs and smart packaging could see longer wheelbase and overall shorter length (it is still longer than VE but narrower). Barra could easily be tuned for 220kW/400Nm giving it a big advantage over Alloytec. Also the turbo could push out to basically Typhoon levels and match LS98. But what about their V8? They need to much better than the current 5.4, but with the turbo in the line up they have backed themselves into a corner. Maybe just have the V8 in the GT series but pushing 320kW, although I'd rather a 300kW/600Nm Phoon. Holden don't have this dilemma as there's an 75kW jump from Alloytec to LS98

[SS_Fury]

would i be as bold to say that:
holden/hsv = better v8's than ford
ford/fpv = better 6's than holden

*puts flame suit on*

[BlueVZSS]

would i be as bold to say that:
holden/hsv = better v8's than ford
ford/fpv = better 6's than holden

*puts flame suit on*

I agree but I think that the VE is the better overall package now in both.

[Aus8]

Well you can believe what you like, but in my eyes the published figures are more official and credible than some hearsay about someone who supposedly ran some times at the local strip. This argument is getting tiring, I have said what I think and can't be bothered continuing it any further.

I believe what the majority on here believe and that is real world drag times in a real world environment. Read up what you like in magazines and manufactuer claims while we test the cars on a proper drag strip and not a abondoned runway with a G-tech.(If you know what that is)

You dont seem to be understanding there is no hearsay and suppossed times, I thought we had made this clear. I have only quoted proven times and figures.

Cheers

Aus8

[Evil LS1]

I think you are totally ignoring the fact that the VY also underwent significant strengthening of its body structure, which substantially improved rigidity and safety over the VT/VX. The VY incorporated many improvements under the skin, however this is not as commonly known as Holden didn't carry on about it as if they had re-invented the wheel.


So why didn't it's handling improve. Normally a stiffer chassis would help out, but VY was still trounced by BA. A lot of VE's improvement is due to the 200% torsionally stiffer chassis, not just the improved/new suspension.

[BlueVZSS]

So why didn't it's handling improve. Normally a stiffer chassis would help out, but VY was still trounced by BA. A lot of VE's improvement is due to the 200% torsionally stiffer chassis, not just the improved/new suspension.

I can't agree with that assertion. Most reviews have the VY/VZ line ball with or slightly ahead of BA/BF in the handling stakes despite "more sophisticated" componentary in the Ford.

[Evil LS1]

I can't agree with that assertion. Most reviews have the VY/VZ line ball with or slightly ahead of BA/BF in the handling stakes despite "more sophisticated" componentary in the Ford.

What universe. Only the steering is criticised on the ford. Not sure what mags you are reading but only street commodore could possibly come out with that. And no I don't own a ford.

[SJM HSV]

IN ONE OF THE 11 WAYS THAT FORD IS BETTER STATES.


5. VE Commodore does not currently offer a dedicated LPG or dual fuel LPG option.

WELL WELL OBVIOUSLY THEY CAN'T READ THE HOLEN WEBSITE.

Commodore Omega 3.6L 4-speed automatic LPG Alloytec V6 $38,390.00 RRP*

SORRY BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME FORD :machinegun:

[BlueVZSS]

What universe. Only the steering is criticised on the ford. Not sure what mags you are reading but only street commodore could possibly come out with that. And no I don't own a ford.

A ready to hand example:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=11205&vf=1

Comments about Ford competitors:

"Ford Falcon XR8 $51,330
Feels like a more sophisticated, contemporary car. It's also heavier, so despite its 260kW 5.4-litre V8 it's neither as quick nor as taut as the SS."

Another:

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/xrt-holden-vz-ss-sedan.htm

"Though I prefer the way the Falcon XR8 puts its power to the ground and the feedback it offers, thanks to its more sophisticated control blade rear suspension setup, the SS Commodore is probably the quicker cornerer of the two, thanks in part to its lighter kerb weight and keen front end."

There plenty of examples around including the better known magazines.

[vecommo]

I'm with BlueVZSS on this one.
While I'm not denying that the BA/BF are a good car, I think that due to the extreme amounts of hype that have surrounded the fords ever since the ba was released, people have developed misconceptions such as this.

[RED R8]

I believe what the majority on here believe and that is real world drag times in a real world environment. Read up what you like in magazines and manufactuer claims while we test the cars on a proper drag strip and not a abondoned runway with a G-tech.(If you know what that is)

You dont seem to be understanding there is no hearsay and suppossed times, I thought we had made this clear. I have only quoted proven times and figures.

Cheers

Aus8
One thing that I trust though is that when the jerno's test these car's they are tested dead stock and run mid 13's then on the track run high 12's you have no guarantees they are stock they may be stock apart from air filters removed and tyres let down etc but the mags test em as if you pulled up at a set of lights and an F6 pulled up next to you I guarantee without lower tyre pressure's and without a warm the tyre's burnout with bags of torque causing wheelspin the F6 will not run better than mid 13's on the street so to me the mags test them in a real situation.

[F6 Hoon]

One thing that I trust though is that when the jerno's test these car's they are tested dead stock and run mid 13's then on the track run high 12's you have no guarantees they are stock they may be stock apart from air filters removed and tyres let down etc but the mags test em as if you pulled up at a set of lights and an F6 pulled up next to you I guarantee without lower tyre pressure's and without a warm the tyre's burnout with bags of torque causing wheelspin the F6 will not run better than mid 13's on the street so to me the mags test them in a real situation.

Dunno about that. My tune only 12.56 was done with no wheelspin and 40psi tyre pressure, full tank of BP Ultimate fuel and spare in the boot. Didn't even flick the trans over to sports mode, just left it in D. I must confess I did run a BMC airfilter though.

I doubt these journo's are knuckleheads who don't know how to drive cars.

[BossV8]

Well you can believe what you like, but in my eyes the published figures are more official and credible than some hearsay about someone who supposedly ran some times at the local strip. This argument is getting tiring, I have said what I think and can't be bothered continuing it any further.

Aren't you listening to Aus8? The car that has done a stock 12.9 is a long-time member of these forums, to which other long time members saw as well. It's not hearsay, why would the Holden blokes make that up? ffs!

Magazine times are mostly BS, yes they are done on a strip, but sometimes with a correvit, on a track that may not have been prepped lately, and weather factors are there too. Who knows how many runs the guys get to put down a good time

Argument may be getting tiring for you, but I think everyone else is getting tired of explaining the easy stuff for only yourself, why not take a little notice?

[clubbie]

Pardon my ignorance to all...but I clearly remember a bog stock HSV GTO auto doing 12.9 in Modern Motor mag about 18Mths ago. Im sure MT can confirm this.

Point being... was run on a prepped drag strip over the 1/4 mile on a cool night. As everyone knows 1/4 mile times at thetrack are faster as the car is rolling when it hits the timing beams to start the clock.

Now all you ford guys show me a published article (MM/Wheels etc) where a standard ford has done 12.9 down the quarter...MMM..dont think so.

Before you flame me the same car a couple of weeks later could only manage mid 13's (different atmospherics and measured with GPS based system).

Clubbie

PS the BF II front looks...er....frumpy.

PPS I'm sure the Camry/Aurion will sell very well to our recent neighbours whom don't care where the driven wheels are located as long as it has a T on the bonnet.

[payaya]

I can't agree with that assertion. Most reviews have the VY/VZ line ball with or slightly ahead of BA/BF in the handling stakes despite "more sophisticated" componentary in the Ford.

The Falcon has been the better overall handler since the AU with the double wishbone.

Every mag I read states the Performance Class Falcons handle way better than the Commodore. Thats expected as the Falcon suspension was updated when the BA was introduced. The Commodore systemdates back to the early 90's???

Well will handle better than the BF.

[payaya]

Pardon my ignorance to all...but I clearly remember a bog stock HSV GTO auto doing 12.9 in Modern Motor mag about 18Mths ago. Im sure MT can confirm this.

Point being... was run on a prepped drag strip over the 1/4 mile on a cool night. As everyone knows 1/4 mile times at thetrack are faster as the car is rolling when it hits the timing beams to start the clock.

Now all you ford guys show me a published article (MM/Wheels etc) where a standard ford has done 12.9 down the quarter...MMM..dont think so.

Before you flame me the same car a couple of weeks later could only manage mid 13's (different atmospherics and measured with GPS based system).

Clubbie

PS the BF II front looks...er....frumpy.

PPS I'm sure the Camry/Aurion will sell very well to our recent neighbours whom don't care where the driven wheels are located as long as it has a T on the bonnet.

From reading mag after mag the 6.0L seems to be posting slower times than the 5.7??? Seems to not breathe as well as the 5.7L? Not sure if true or not!

[nang3]

Pardon my ignorance to all...but I clearly remember a bog stock HSV GTO auto doing 12.9 in Modern Motor mag about 18Mths ago. Im sure MT can confirm this.

Point being... was run on a prepped drag strip over the 1/4 mile on a cool night. As everyone knows 1/4 mile times at thetrack are faster as the car is rolling when it hits the timing beams to start the clock.

Now all you ford guys show me a published article (MM/Wheels etc) where a standard ford has done 12.9 down the quarter...MMM..dont think so.

Before you flame me the same car a couple of weeks later could only manage mid 13's (different atmospherics and measured with GPS based system).

Clubbie

PS the BF II front looks...er....frumpy.

PPS I'm sure the Camry/Aurion will sell very well to our recent neighbours whom don't care where the driven wheels are located as long as it has a T on the bonnet.


yeh i remember something about that, but I also remember the distinct lack of strip times backing it up by owners of the same car.. to the extent there was a lot of questionability regarding the magazines car and its apparent 'stockness'..

and ur right about the timing beams etc, that extra 30cm of head start should shave 0.2-0.4 from the ET

[Carby]

What universe. Only the steering is criticised on the ford. Not sure what mags you are reading but only street commodore could possibly come out with that. And no I don't own a ford.


BLUE VZ is right and you are are the mark. Despite the aging suspension the Commodore was quicker around the track - it used up more tyres doing this though. MOTOR had an issue where they fanged the Fords and Holdens and only the XR6 was better than the SV6. You may remember the issue - it was the one where the SV8 was quicker than the HSV's - for one given lap mind you, but a terribly embarrassing result for HSV I would think.

[HSVMAN]

That BF is one butt ugly machine. They have ruined a good looking car IMO.
Drove a client's 6 mth old auto XR6 last week to see if it was any different to the one I had 3 years ago. To be honest the steering is still heavy, engine sounds better than VZ SV6 (smoother) but doesnt feel as quick . Body is tighter and feels a bigger car but not as nimble and does'nt corner as well as the SV6. Overall I think it perhaps feelsd more refined than VZ but not as nimble or fast. Engine is way behind in technology forget the crap that comes from Ford marketing.
Now, they havent changed much on BF apart from a facelift gone wrong and some extra add-ons (at a cost). I have yet to see the Barra engine produce better economy than Alloytec and I have many clients who drive both in large numbers so who knows about that one.... All in all I would rate the engines even though. Overall car-wise, no contest, VE is a generation ahead :)

[JNP304]

No doubt the cars on both sides are getting better and better with tougher competition and this can only be good for consumers. We should welcome cars like the F6, it just means than HSV will have to raise the bar and we get a better product in the end. Ford fans have been waiting a long time for a decent performance car. No decent performance since 1982 when the last 351 rolled off the line in the XE.(pollution geared up to the max).
Even the TS50 ect as good a car as it is was pretty ho-hum performance.
At least now we have a real choice of performace cars on both sides of the fence. Should be happy not rubbishing each car because it had a blue badge or a chrome lion.

[kayman]

While the Ford 6 doesnt feel as quick as the holden, i would say it is.

My brothers AU3 feels sluggish as hell but the power delievery is much smoother than my VT2, and as much as i hate to say it, its quicker. (tho handles crap as its on stock suspension)

[LT8888]

Overall car-wise, no contest, VE is a generation ahead :)

Well der, maybe because it actually is?!? Its a brand new car. BA is last generation already. If Holden couldn't match Ford with a brand new car then they shouldn't be designing cars.

[HSE2]

VE is a generation ahead :)


To be honest I am having trouble applying this term to our cars either on the Ford side or the Holden side. I didn't think the claims that the BF was a generation ahead of VZ were correct and I am struggling to see the same of the VE. Ahead yes but the term generation is so complete and so extensive that it is praise of the highest order. On a star rating that’s getting on towards a two star difference. One media outlet that has indeed levelled this amount of praise on VE also said the same of BF which makes the VE a two generation jump in their eyes.

I am starting to wonder how this term is being applied and would like an explanation so I too can get on the same page. I had my first taste of the VE interior on the weekend and inspection of the quality and I am more then just a little curious at what people are looking at and placing value on when making this claim. I guess I am a little stuck on the electronic examples of next generation be that phones, consoles, TVs etc.

[Holden Man]

Well der, maybe because it actually is?!? Its a brand new car. BA is last generation already. If Holden couldn't match Ford with a brand new car then they shouldn't be designing cars.


Don't forget that Ford brought forward the "BA" as they were losing sales bigtime with the AU against the Commodore. Ford spent 1/2 a billion dollars on the BA, so it was more than just a facelift. BF has seen more items brought forward also, like the ZF box.

As for "designing" cars, I love the look of the VE (confirmed after seeing in the flesh) but that BF Falcon 2 update looks strange, especially if they are giving styling hints form the Orion (like VY, VX showed us a little of the VE)

Will Ford have anything left (surprises) for the Orion ?

[Ghia351]

Engine is way behind in technology forget the crap that comes from Ford marketing. What exactly is the gigantic technological gap between the two apart from all-alloy construction?

[HSVMAN]

To be honest I am having trouble applying this term to our cars either on the Ford side or the Holden side. I didn't think the claims that the BF was a generation ahead of VZ were correct and I am struggling to see the same of the VE. Ahead yes but the term generation is so complete and so extensive that it is praise of the highest order. On a star rating that’s getting on towards a two star difference. One media outlet that has indeed levelled this amount of praise on VE also said the same of BF which makes the VE a two generation jump in their eyes.

I am starting to wonder how this term is being applied and would like an explanation so I too can get on the same page. I had my first taste of the VE interior on the weekend and inspection of the quality and I am more then just a little curious at what people are looking at and placing value on when making this claim. I guess I am a little stuck on the electronic examples of next generation be that phones, consoles, TVs etc.
In some ways you are right. BA was not a generation ahead of VZ, it is the same generation ie in terms of design origin and age.
My view is that in terms of LOOKS, DESIGN and EQUIPMENT, VE is a generation ahead. It simply dates earlier shapes such as AU-BA or VT-VZ. Those platforms were and are upgraded to the extent there was no more they could do without major platform and panel changes.
VE is the beginning of e new era or in terms you are struggling with "generation". The next generation for Falcon is Orion. BF is a culmination and final draft of the current platform without including BFII which falls into the same category.
Hope that clears it up:)

[HSVMAN]

What exactly is the gigantic technological gap between the two apart from all-alloy construction?

Dammit I made that sound like a troll and it worked :) I would'nt call it a giant gap at all actually. I like the Barra engine, it has provided a great foundation with some pretty impressive results.
Technology wise I get peeved with the Ford guys saying it is up with Alloytec with technology - which is why I made that comment.
It is'nt, end of story.
It does have great smoothness as in line sixes should, plus excellent power prospects with forced induction though I suspect in its current format it is nearing the end of it's life span.
It has variable valve timing (2 settings) but not constantly variable of which there is a major difference in terms of efficiency. It is Iron yes so ways a lot more, displaces less heat and therefore requires more energy to cool. I dont want to knock it because as I said it is a great engine.
Alloytec is in it's infancy, has huge potential power-wise, could easily push several hundred HP with Bolt-ons and not complain. Revs much higher - can sit close to 7000rpm all day if pushed without faltering. 2 completely different motors really, both great.
Hope that answers your question :)