VE Discussion / HSV Variants - PART 3

[HSE2]

Couldn't give a sh*t personally. Very happy with my VZ Clubbie. Reckon the VE is a great car and i look forward to one day soon stepping into a new VE.

People seem to get so upset when a new model comes out that is so much better than the old one. Why ? It is progress folks. I like the idea that the next car i buy will be better than my current one. So i take a financial hit ? Big deal. You go into these things with your eyes open knowing this up front.

I really don't understand what people expect of HSV.........


It is the only way to look at it, eyes wide open. If HSV can improve on it then that’s great if not for the people that are concerned about it there is always the smart buying periods to fall back on.


The two quotes are from the drive and car point articles......anyone thinking that the clubsport could be the typhoon competitor that everyone has been suggesting!!!

Turobo anyone!!:nyuk:


Surely the Grange won't be resting for very long. Me thinks SMS is long enough.

[HSVDKB]

Couldn't give a sh*t personally. Very happy with my VZ Clubbie. Reckon the VE is a great car and i look forward to one day soon stepping into a new VE.

People seem to get so upset when a new model comes out that is so much better than the old one. Why ? It is progress folks. I like the idea that the next car i buy will be better than my current one. So i take a financial hit ? Big deal. You go into these things with your eyes open knowing this up front.

I really don't understand what people expect of HSV.........

Totally agree. I have had 18 months of great driving experience in the VZ HSV and look forward to another year or so. Took a bath in changeover price when I went from a VS HSV to a VX then another bath changing to the VZ. Same will happen when I change to a VE (bath may be deeper!). Long since realised indulging in my passion for these cars is an expensive hobby.

[Veeate]

Totally agree. I have had 18 months of great driving experience in the VZ HSV and look forward to another year or so. Took a bath in changeover price when I went from a VS HSV to a VX then another bath changing to the VZ. Same will happen when I change to a VE (bath may be deeper!). Long since realised indulging in my passion for these cars is an expensive hobby.

It is only the depth of the water in the bath that changes !!!

[Ryzz]

Continued from Here (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=59692)

[goofafidamedes]

Has anyone else noticed that the colour Impulse Blue has been removed from the GTS configurator section since last night?

[Carby650]

13.18 for the auto over 400m. hmmm....change diff gears and we have a 12sec beast..

[Zombee]

Phoned my local HSV dealer to ask when he was getting his shipment of GTS's in as I would like to take one for a test drive (maybe time to upgrade the VX GTS:)), anyway he said he had 4 coming in on the 11th Sep... and 2 are already sold and a third deal is being finalised today:eek: They seem popular already!! He said I could come down and check out the cars before the new owners pick them up.

He also said that a GTSR could well eventuate, but expect a price in excess of $120 large ones...

Cheers
Zombee:)

[myles]

The drive review conveyed a somewhat negative tone with the use of 'but'. But despite, but the bigger body, but again...

At least they picked a good photo.
http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21driving-HSVM_m.jpg

[HSE2]

Has anyone else noticed that the colour Impulse Blue has been removed from the GTS configurator section since last night?

Yeah and it isn't the only colour either. I can't get the config to give me options like the sunroof or the AP racing brake option.

[C4B]

I must say I'm disappointed that the GTS has been downgraded to a Clubsport R8 spec vehicle.

This will be the first time since the VP (if my memory serves me correctly) that the GTS has had the same specification powerplant as the rest of the HSV range.

:eek:

[holdennutta]

The drive review conveyed a somewhat negative tone with the use of 'but'. But despite, but the bigger body, but again...

At least they picked a good photo.
http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21driving-HSVM_m.jpg

I think the same thing, but these comments seem to be seen as poor form atm :P

[Exithouse]

Ok, I’m getting back onto this subject again… this changeover price topic is bullshit. I (and a lot of others here) can afford the change over etc, that’s not the point. It’s the fact that HSV have estranged a lot of people by turning a “special” car into just another Holden while killing off the re-sale price. Even thou I can afford it - it sure as hell doesn’t mean that I’m going to buy it or not stand up and say nothing about there bullshit marketing. It’s just not the way to build a customer base.

To all those raving about the car (and yes it looks ok) stop take a deep breath and wait… don’t rush in. Surely there are better places and organisations to donate 30-40k to than HSV? Because that is what you will loose come series two.

Also, if I were a GTS owner I would be pissed now as well. They’ve taken what is a Clubsport R8 and re-branded it as the GTS. The Clubsport has now been branded as a R8. Way to confuse the hell out of people not up with the play.

Still all that said the GTS looks pretty :)

[korrupt]

I must say I'm disappointed that the GTS has been downgraded to a Clubsport R8 spec vehicle.

GTS gets the new suspension which, alledgely, won't be offered on the Clubby. It sounds like it is closer to the DTS
pack though.

[NickS]

5 sec 0-100 ... low 13 sec quarter ... huge brakes ... trick suspension.

Sounds better then any GTS that HSV have sold before. HSV are finally using more than just outright power to build a performance car.

I think the new GTS may be priced similarly to the old R8 but it's a far superior car :yup:

[HSE2]

5 sec 0-100 ... low 13 sec quarter ... huge brakes ... trick suspension.

Sounds better then any GTS that HSV have sold before. HSV are finally using more than just outright power to build a performance car.

I think the new GTS may be priced similarly to the old R8 but it's a far superior car :yup:

Forgetting about the cars for the minute, what do HSV get out of calling what could have been called the R8 a GTS. The R8 and the GT-P on the ford side have had questions over them for a while in terms of value given how good the GT and the clubbie are respectively. I would have thought the trick suspension to have given the R8 that reason more so then returning a name many expect more of.

On top of that its never a good idea to build up a car like the R8 and then down position it because it can confuse the market that has been structured around the R8 being held in higher esteem. It’s a strange move by HSV and I would love to know what they were thinking. Personally they should have left it as Club sport then R8 and returned the GTS later. Interesting marketing move and I can't wait to read what the reasons are.

[Freaky]

5 sec 0-100 ... low 13 sec quarter ... huge brakes ... trick suspension.

Sounds better then any GTS that HSV have sold before. HSV are finally using more than just outright power to build a performance car.

I think the new GTS may be priced similarly to the old R8 but it's a far superior car :yup:

agree 100%. most people can't seem to grasp that concept though. Most important to them is what Kw the engine is, or how many 10ths quicker it is to 100.


pretty sad really. look at the whole package.

anyhow. the cars look good. Senator is my pick.

[C4B]

HSV are finally using more than just outright power to build a performance car.


The $20,000 drop in price will sell more GTS's than trick suspension and big brakes.

[NickS]

The $20,000 drop in price will sell more GTS's than trick suspension and big brakes.
I actually think the 2 things combined will sell more cars. If the trick suspension, bigger wheels and leather isn't appealing then you would just buy the R8 and save $10K. I think the Magnetic Ride Control is going to be the deal clincher for a lot of people trying to decide which one to get ... I know it was for me.

Everyone is so focused on kW and Nm, as though that's the be all and end all of a performance car. The whole package is so much better that it looks to be a quicker, much better car despite the weight increase and minimal power increase. All I'm trying to get at is that more power doesn't necessarily equal a better car, what Holden & HSV have done with chassis, suspension, brakes etc. as definately made it a better car.

[X BC X]

All I'm trying to get at is that more power doesn't necessarily equal a better car, what Holden & HSV have done with chassis, suspension, brakes etc. as definately made it a better car.

BINGO.....

what would people prefer, a 350kw gts that drives like a steaming heap of poo, or a 307kw gts which has a world class ride and moves like a stripper around a lubed up pole.

Sure they could have pumped up the KW, but if they keep making giant
leaps in KW....you will eventually corner yourself and have nowhere to go.

HSV have made the best possible move, and NOW have a world class car.

bc

[Holden Man]

I think they are now completing the overall package. HSV have had the grunt to see off most local cars but suffered sometimes in the ride and handling dept. (car mag reviews)

Now they have a car with a lot of potential in the ride and handling stacks and a slightly gruniter engine so I'm very interested in the press reviews when these cars hit the road and track.

GTS may now be seen as the most complete package instead of the quickest to 100.

The styling is growing on me...I remeber the VY HSV's looked strange when I first saw them but now I like them.

[Veeate]

I actually think the 2 things combined will sell more cars. If the trick suspension, bigger wheels and leather isn't appealing then you would just buy the R8 and save $10K. I think the Magnetic Ride Control is going to be the deal clincher for a lot of people trying to decide which one to get ... I know it was for me.

Everyone is so focused on kW and Nm, as though that's the be all and end all of a performance car. The whole package is so much better that it looks to be a quicker, much better car despite the weight increase and minimal power increase. All I'm trying to get at is that more power doesn't necessarily equal a better car, what Holden & HSV have done with chassis, suspension, brakes etc. as definately made it a better car.

Totally agree. Better all round car for less money.

Gee....i can understand people being angry with HSV for doing that :confused:

[goofafidamedes]

Yeah and it isn't the only colour either. I can't get the config to give me options like the sunroof or the AP racing brake option.

I don't think they've completed that much of the configurator yet - that being said I liked the old configurator better.

I wasn't able to add options like a sunroof or anything else last night, nor today.

[kayman]

another thing everyone has to remember, is that the drivetrain is more efficient, therefore the stock RWKW rating will be higher than that of the VZ's even if they used the same engine specifications.

[Holden Man]

BINGO.....

moves like a stripper around a lubed up pole.


bc

LOL :lmao: What a classic

[Crusty]

Sorry if someone has already picked it but from the engine pics it looks like they are using an OTRCAI? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[vyssbeast]

another thing everyone has to remember, is that the drivetrain is more efficient, therefore the stock RWKW rating will be higher than that of the VZ's even if they used the same engine specifications.

i'd like to agree as there has always been huge losses throughthe drivetrain
but where did you get this info from?

[XLR8 V8]

Sorry if someone has already picked it but from the engine pics it looks like they are using an OTRCAI? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Unfortunately not. Looking at a closeup, they use the same baffled inlet tube as the VE SS (maybe a little smoother but very much the same)

[Crusty]

Wow 102mm ride height from factory... guess noone will be lowering them.


Unfortunately not. Looking at a closeup, they use the same baffled inlet tube as the VE SS (maybe a little smoother but very much the same)

Bummer, I got all excited for nothing :(

[SV805]

Is there a formula for How Holden used to calculate Kw to the new DIN.

I completely agree with the whole package will be heads above old one and will need to be for the price difference from runout VZ $50K to VE $65K. Power is not the be all and end all and will probably have resales stabalise if there are only modest power improvements in next model (Exception GTS-R).

What I hate though is the spin Doctors and when they have a video of Engineer stating they have increased Power to 307Kw and Torque to 550 nm then I expect that they have genuinely increased Power.

So back to question at the top.......What does the old 297KW equate to in DIN kw ??????
Also note in stats that NM is quoted in DIN ?????? How does this equate???

[goofafidamedes]

...

{SNIP}

So back to question at the top.......What does the old 297KW equate to in DIN kw ??????
Also note in stats that NM is quoted in DIN ?????? How does this equate???

305kw IIRC. As for the torque, I think its the same. Basically, VE brings a torque increase to the table.

[kayman]

i'd like to agree as there has always been huge losses throughthe drivetrain
but where did you get this info from?

i cant remember but it was in one of the many ARTICLES (not posts) that i have read.

it said something along the lines that the VE drivetrain was suffered less loss than the VZ drivetrain.

i suspect this is one of the reasons why the VESS makes big gains on the VZSS

[goofafidamedes]

i cant remember but it was in one of the many ARTICLES (not posts) that i have read.

it said something along the lines that the VE drivetrain was suffered less loss than the VZ drivetrain.

i suspect this is one of the reasons why the VESS makes big gains on the VZSS

I would have thought it would be more due to the improved rear suspension allowing more of the power to be transferred to the road, rather than bouncing around axle tramping all over the shop as VY-VZ cars are wont to do.

[fyreblade2000]

"hp (DIN)
DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

[GTO_]

HSV VE looks good to me, EXCEPT, that I'm not sure about that rear spoiler-it doesn't seem to "blend in" with the rest of the car--maybe it's not supposed to!. But I do like the Senator--it has that Audi/Mercedes european look-very subtle. I wouldn't be too concerned about power output--I'm absolutely certain that HSV have something up their sleeve!
Actually, I'm a bit confused about the DIN issue. Is it possible that whilst there is a torque increase, actual power output is the same?
Anyway, as I've said before, HSV is going to retain its top spot, as FPV have nothing to compete with this.
Cheers, Pickles.

Don't agree. FPV don't have much to worry about. Their cars still look great. Sure if you have to have a V8 sedan the VE would have the performance advantage over the GT (but there are some rumours of a new blown FPV V8). An F6 in the real world would still lick the VE HSV. F6 is also cheaper to mod and get a sh@# load of power out of. We've seen a few F6's run 12.9-12.8 down the 1/4 from he factory floor. Let's see if the VE can achieve the same. Not saying it won't, but lets see what the real world achieves. Not what HSV tells us. I'd still pick an F6 over the VE. So FPV got nothing to worry about yet.




Couple of comments.

2. Hope Holden can shed some light on new 307kw DIN (is this up or down ?)

Mate what are you smoking? Pass the bong! ... What is it you can't grasp? It's up 2kw (DIN) on the VZ. The VZ was rated @ 305kw (DIN). It's not too hard to work out, don't know why you need Holden to give you confirmation on this.




I think the new GTS may be priced similarly to the old R8 but it's a far superior car :yup:

I agree with that. GTS looks good, and even though power isn't really up that much 307kw (DIN) vs VZ 305kw (DIN), the VE looks like a far superior car.

Shorter final gear ratios (over the VZ) also help with acceleration times. Hence the manual being slightly quicker than the auto, and quicker than the VZ. Nothing a diff gear change can't improve for the VZ guys.

End of the day if I was a HSV VZ owner would I loose a sh@# load of $ and get the latest and greatest? ABSOLOUTELY NO WAY!. If you've got no hang up's on moding, then just slightly mod your VZ and you will be chopping stock HSV VE's all day long. Let's face it most :limpy: who buys these new rarely mod them. So they'll be rocking up to some older model thinking ("look at me I've got a VE and I'll show you") then get their ar@##$ handed to them by an older model. Gotta love that!

[SV805]

305kw IIRC. As for the torque, I think its the same. Basically, VE brings a torque increase to the table.

So according to this the VE gets 2 Kw increase in power ???????

Before I get flamed, I actually wouldn't care if it got no Power Increase, and am far more interested in the whole package and if they can make it go quicker without an increase all the better, it is just as stated if that is the case say THAT. Don't go claiming more that what is actually increased ot giving the impression of more that what has been done and then have some Jorno come out and shoot down the stated increase. If you change to DIN, state that and advertise that don't just slip it into the stata with no comment.

All in all I really like the GTS and has given me real drive to own one in the next 6 months and has probably delayed my existing thoughts of getting a SS -V

[kayman]

I would have thought it would be more due to the improved rear suspension allowing more of the power to be transferred to the road, rather than bouncing around axle tramping all over the shop as VY-VZ cars are wont to do.

im not doubting that either, im sure the suspension makes a BIG difference (i hate damn axle tramp)

[NickS]

End of the day if I was a HSV VZ owner would I loose a sh@# load of $ and get the latest and greatest? ABSOLOUTELY NO WAY!. If you've got no hang up's on moding, then just slightly mod your VZ and you will be chopping stock HSV VE's all day long. Let's face it most :limpy: who buys these new rarely mod them. So they'll be rocking up to some older model thinking ("look at me I've got a VE and I'll show you") then get their ar@##$ handed to them by an older model. Gotta love that!
Quarter mile maybe ... but you guys have to accept that there is a hell of a lot more to a car than a quarter mile time, for most people anyway :rolleyes:

[Holden Man]

Quarter mile maybe ... but you guys have to accept that there is a hell of a lot more to a car than a quarter mile time, for most people anyway :rolleyes:


You could probably mod a old SV8 to beat the VE HSV over the quarter, but I know what I would rather when it comes to slowing down and taking corners.

[HSE2]

So according to this the VE gets 2 Kw increase in power ???????



They appear to have made two changes that make the absolute specific gain unclear.

The first is the change from ECE to DIN. HSV previously marketed their cars as being 305 din Kws. But it seems that figure was obtained using 95 Ron fuel according to the specifications on the HSV site.

The second change is that the VE range is 307 kws with 98 Ron specified. No claim has yet been made for 95 Ron which would need to be known to make a direct comparison.

If you believe the previous claim of 305 din achieved on 95 Ron fuel and accept what looks to be 307din on 98 Ron fuel HSV have done a tremendous job increasing performance with a weight increase, although the exact increase seems to be missing from the specs.

[RICHO]

Don't know about the Senator, seem to be too many "folds" / lines on the cars rear end.... I can't even make myself like it (from pics anyway)...

But the GTS....Hmmmmm....NOW that's the car that does it for me!! Ditch the red interior mind you, but seeing those pics, reading about the new suspension etc (esp the "maganaride"?? shocks) and I am definitely feeling the pull of the "dark side".

You only have to read about the Corvette and the lateral G's it can pull to know that the handling is going to be something pretty special on a track as well...

[goofafidamedes]

Quarter mile maybe ... but you guys have to accept that there is a hell of a lot more to a car than a quarter mile time, for most people anyway :rolleyes:

Yeah, it seems that the VE is more of a package than any other HSV that has preceded it. It has the mumbo in a straight line, the braking power to haul up for corners, has the (as yet unproven, but wait a little while, it will be) ability to go round those corners not solely due to some gumball tyres (DTS or Yokohama equipped Z), is refined around town, isn't like a truck to drive (gearbox shift) and looks the ducks gutz.

[HSE2]

Joe Kenwright had this to say earlier this year

"There is another factor that makes direct comparison difficult. Until the start of 2006, manufacturers could measure their power and torque outputs by the DIN measurement. Manufacturers must now switch to the more conservative ECE measurement.

The fundamental difference to horsepower junkies is that the DIN measurement allows manufacturers to claim power and torque spikes (even if they only occur momentarily through the rev range) as maximum figures. The ECE measurement requires manufacturers to identify a power and torque peak then hold it for a full 60 seconds. If it's a very fine peak ‘blip', it won't be sustainable under this measurement forcing manufacturers to seek a more sustainable peak elsewhere in the rev range which is usually lower.

This explains why so many manufacturers appeared to lose power and torque in the Euro III changeover at the start of 2006. Holden's figures have all been brought into line with ECE measurements including V6 models."

[Baddaz]

The drive review conveyed a somewhat negative tone with the use of 'but'. But despite, but the bigger body, but again...

At least they picked a good photo.
http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21driving-HSVM_m.jpg

Has anyone seen/found any high res pictures of the E-series HSV's yet??

[myles]

Couldn't find any high resolution photos either (on the site at least).

Today I noticed an e-card they had up, comparing the GTS and Senator to the german cars. It had a score board with "Australia 1, Germany 0", but isn't there anymore.

Thought it was interesting marketing to say the least. The image compared the GTS and Senator to the Audi (A4), BMW (550) and Mercedes range on engine capacity, wheel size, but particularly, that none of the german cars listed around the $150K mark and below had magnetic ride control.

[BAM*BAM]

I'm with NickS on this issue. Huge power is nice, but what's the point when the car handles and drives like a boat (like most standard Holdens and HSV's do).

I know long before I even thought of getting an EDIT done on my cv8, I put bilsteins in the car first. The car is now much more fun to drive around town handling better, than it would be just by boosting the power.

[SteveK]

Wow 102mm ride height from factory... guess noone will be lowering them.



Bummer, I got all excited for nothing :(

True, but that's a nice looking engine cover. Like a Turtle Robot Transformer. I shall call him "Shell Shocked".

Steve.

[fyreblade2000]

Any chance that this could be the next Clubsport with Turbo?

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21Torana2M_m.jpg

Just a thought.

[XLR8 V8]

Couldn't find any high resolution photos either (on the site at least).

Today I noticed an e-card they had up, comparing the GTS and Senator to the german cars. It had a score board with "Australia 1, Germany 0", but isn't there anymore.

Thought it was interesting marketing to say the least. The image compared the GTS and Senator to the Audi (A4), BMW (550) and Mercedes range on engine capacity, wheel size, but particularly, that none of the german cars listed around the $150K mark and below had magnetic ride control.

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/scoreboard_l.jpg

[jaykay]

All in all I really like the GTS and has given me real drive to own one in the next 6 months and has probably delayed my existing thoughts of getting a SS -V

Money is obviously not object to you and aren't we talking $20k + difference to the GTS from the SSV ? Why would you consider an SSV if you can afford the GTS ????? :teach:

[Evil LS1]

Cars looks awesome especially the rear diffuser; also like the smaller tail-lights much better than standard VE. Only complaint the wheels suck big time. Trying to be too different with the design they are :weirdo:. About the only thing that would need an upgrade on the cosmetic side of things, although I prefers the senator rear end as these don't need a spolier IMO. Oh and sterring wheel still looks naff, again to smart by half with the design; performance always needs upgrading though - 307kW is a good start, but I think 407 is better.

Got to say this is the first time I've looked at clubsport and thought yeah I'd like to own that. The brakes alone would account for a big chunk of the price differential from the SS-V.

Is leather an option on the R8; or wait 6 months and pick up a SH GTS. Sell the wheels and we're looking good.

What colours are available; configurator isn't working for me?

[geary]

Because, in my opinion, the GTS looks rather shit.

[Ghosn]

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/scoreboard_l.jpg

That really is a stupid comparison. No performance figures, No power to weight ratios, No kw per tonne figures. Instead lets compare wheelbase and claim HSV have the performance advantage and something called MRC.

[goofafidamedes]

That really is a stupid comparison. No performance figures, No power to weight ratios, No kw per tonne figures. Instead lets compare wheelbase instead and claim HSV have the performance advantage and something called MRC.

Isn't that where in marketing you compare what you do have up on your competitors not the things you're down? Advertise/market your strengths, not your weaknesses.

Don't get me wrong, the holes are obvious, but as far as HSV's marketing goes (website aside) you can't really fault them.

[hsvLS1255]

That really is a stupid comparison. No performance figures, No power to weight ratios, No kw per tonne figures. Instead lets compare wheelbase and claim HSV have the performance advantage and something called MRC.

i like how they selectively miss out the e55/m5 from respective manufacturers.....fair enough they put the audi rs4 in because it only has a 2 kw advantage so does not look too bad.

[Vulture]

Money is obviously not object to you and aren't we talking $20k + difference to the GTS from the SSV ? Why would you consider an SSV if you can afford the GTS ????? :teach:

It's more complicated than that. I know that I would have similar quandaries. An SS-V or SS is a great base for modification. The L98 might end up making more power with a simple cam swap than the LS2 and the money saved could be put towards, say, big brakes and exhaust, tune, 20" wheels etc (turbo kit). It will be interesting to see the reviews of the magnetic fluid shock absorbers as this could be a major factor to jump to HSV. Just because someone can afford an HSV doesn't mean it is necessarily the right choice for them. You need to weigh up all the factors involved: how much you might mod, how much it would cost to upgrade brakes, resale, looks, prestige, standard features. I'd be tempted to grab a GTS, whack in a bigger cam, do the exhaust and be done with it.

[HSE2]

There are other forms of adaptive suspension, either semi or full then MRC.

[CLUB_819]

That really is a stupid comparison. No performance figures, No power to weight ratios, No kw per tonne figures. Instead lets compare wheelbase and claim HSV have the performance advantage and something called MRC.


Yeah it's just marketing crap, you own a CV8 remember when they first came on TV in that GAME OVER add caning porches, viper's etc.. same thing.

Cheers
scotty

[GEN III]

Maybe the Clubsport will be a turbo/supercharged V6.
The R8 is the V8 variant.
Same with Maloo.

I reckon there is a very high possibility.

[Pickles]

Don't agree. FPV don't have much to worry about. Their cars still look great. Sure if you have to have a V8 sedan the VE would have the performance advantage over the GT (but there are some rumours of a new blown FPV V8). An F6 in the real world would still lick the VE HSV. F6 is also cheaper to mod and get a sh@# load of power out of. We've seen a few F6's run 12.9-12.8 down the 1/4 from he factory floor. Let's see if the VE can achieve the same. Not saying it won't, but lets see what the real world achieves. Not what HSV tells us. I'd still pick an F6 over the VE. So FPV got nothing to worry about yet.





Mate what are you smoking? Pass the bong! ... What is it you can't grasp? It's up 2kw (DIN) on the VZ. The VZ was rated @ 305kw (DIN). It's not too hard to work out, don't know why you need Holden to give you confirmation on this.





I agree with that. GTS looks good, and even though power isn't really up that much 307kw (DIN) vs VZ 305kw (DIN), the VE looks like a far superior car.

Shorter final gear ratios (over the VZ) also help with acceleration times. Hence the manual being slightly quicker than the auto, and quicker than the VZ. Nothing a diff gear change can't improve for the VZ guys.

End of the day if I was a HSV VZ owner would I loose a sh@# load of $ and get the latest and greatest? ABSOLOUTELY NO WAY!. If you've got no hang up's on moding, then just slightly mod your VZ and you will be chopping stock HSV VE's all day long. Let's face it most :limpy: who buys these new rarely mod them. So they'll be rocking up to some older model thinking ("look at me I've got a VE and I'll show you") then get their ar@##$ handed to them by an older model. Gotta love that!
FPV have got PLENTY to worry about!
I'm not saying FPV's turbo 6 won't lick a VE. But I don't want a turbo 6, & neither do most of the members of this forum. In any case, a fraction of a second difference over a quarter mile doesn't mean much to me, & there's a lot more to the HSV VE than that. I want a V8, & the LS2, still in its very basic VE guise, is still streets ahead of the Ford V8 engine, which, from what I've heard, has very little potential. In addition, if any of the "series 11" Falcon front, ends up on the FPV cars, that will be further concern (for FPV).
But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but the only real way to see who's done the job right will be to look at the sales figures in 12 months time.-My bet is that HSV will be even further in front than they are now.
Cheers, Pickles.

[Ghosn]

Yeah it's just marketing crap, you own a CV8 remember when they first came on TV in that GAME OVER add caning porches, viper's etc.. same thing.

Cheers
scotty

Don't forget it tames lions as well :)


Because, in my opinion, the GTS looks rather shit.

Just the GTS?

[billybanana]

Those tail lights are gross. Thank god you can't see them from the driver's seat.

[Souljah]

But I don't want a turbo 6, & neither do most of the members of this forum.
Damn. I'd swap my ute for a Typhoon anyday of the week!

[HSE2]

Who would design cars for a living. Amazing how many poeple are seeing different issues with these cars.

[Zombee]

I agree with NickS here, why is power the ultimate be all and end all of a car??

I have a WRX with less than half the power output of my GTS and the Rex will whip my GTS's arse when the road is anything but straight. I love my GTS and would find it very difficult to part with, but I would love it even more if it were a 'complete' package. It looks like HSV has addressed this issue with the new GTS with the emphasis on a total performance car, not just a drag car. If you want insane power levels simply whack on some turbos onto whatever V8 you drive...

For me I like to drive a car that can corner, stop, handle and go...AND if it happens to have the kudos of the HSV GTS badge on it then I'm a happy man.

Cheers
Zombee:)

[james2]

Because, in my opinion, the GTS looks rather shit.And your :driving: a ????????????????????.Please tell us what is so very wrong with this car.

[chevypower]

So James, one must own something more expensive than a product to have an opinion on it, or only if they don't like the design of it?... well I am guilty of that then. I don't like the taillights on it either. To be honest, all this hype, I was expecting a little more innovation, rather than just a new shape. If only Peugeot made the 908, and I could afford it...

[SV805]

It's more complicated than that. I know that I would have similar quandaries. An SS-V or SS is a great base for modification. The L98 might end up making more power with a simple cam swap than the LS2 and the money saved could be put towards, say, big brakes and exhaust, tune, 20" wheels etc (turbo kit). It will be interesting to see the reviews of the magnetic fluid shock absorbers as this could be a major factor to jump to HSV. Just because someone can afford an HSV doesn't mean it is necessarily the right choice for them. You need to weigh up all the factors involved: how much you might mod, how much it would cost to upgrade brakes, resale, looks, prestige, standard features. I'd be tempted to grab a GTS, whack in a bigger cam, do the exhaust and be done with it.

Vulture, saved me from writing most of the above thanks. I actually commented in would give me the drive to get one within 6 months. As far as $20K goes and whether or not I can afford it doesn't mean I am prepared to spend it. I thought the SS-V was good for the Dollars. What I need to do is Justify the GTS is worth another $20K. Not just that I can afford it.

[Penko]

I am probably going to be absolutly shut down here lol,

But i have to admit i was expecting a tiny bit more from HSV in the VE model. come on only a 2kw increase and no option of the AP brakes.

I no the GTS has far better suspension but am i right in that the VZ R8 had the HSV Race Suspension (VY GTS Suspension) while the VE R8 only has the sports touring.

However though i may be completly wrong but before anything i would like to see some lap time comparisions between the new VE and the VZ R8's, becuase i agree its not all just in a stright line

Cheers.

[Ghosn]

But i have to admit i was expecting a tiny bit more from HSV in the VE model. come on only a 2kw increase and no option of the AP brakes.


AP brakes are standard across the whole range.

[SSute]

Yeah the new e series sedans are very nice, NOW HURRY UP & BUILD THE E SERIES MALOO :driving:

[Penko]

AP brakes are standard across the whole range.

The AP 6 piston callipers on the VZ are not on the the VE or Available as an option.

all they have is same rotor but only 4 piston calliper which very well may be AP but it is definatley not the AP package from the VZ

[vysandman]

I keep reading on here that power is not everything when buying one of these vehicles. Would you all be satisfied if they stayed at 185KW and handled like an EVO 9 ? People buy these types of vehicles for all sorts of reasons, some for handling and looks and some for power and looks and some just for the power. To me HSV is the Performance arm of Holden, they compare themselves to BMW and the like when it suits them but there's no mention of that when they're not competitive. My take on the new cars is this. The Clubsport:- More of the same old, same old. The GTS certainly sportier looking, the interior is quite good but "only" 307KW in a GTS ? Sure it is a better car than the VT2 GTS but they've actually gone backwards in power (298.9KW ECE compared to the C4B 300KW ECE) 6 years ago. They're even a bit sneaky in the way they portray that you're getting an extra 10KW over the VZ, it is NOT noted beside all power figures quoted on their site that it is a DIN measurement.People are going to rant on here about the handling and driveability improvements, well that's as a result of the product that Holden have given them to work with but the truth will be in the pudding when it gets tested. 4.96 to the 100? No doubt they achieved it but how many attempts in perfect conditions did it take to get that ? I'd like to see one get that carrying extra weight and with a 2KW (DIN) power increase. The only differences are the wider tyres and Diff ratios. The Senator : not a bad overall package and probably the pick of the bunch considering the market they have targeted it at. I can't help but think back to the May 2005 edition of Motor Magazine where they tested all of the Fords/FPV's 6/8's and Turbos against the Holden/HSV's 6/8's (The Typhoon was not represented) and the Holden SS beat all-comers and got the quickest time around Eastern Creek. So sure it's not all about power because the SS only achieved the 8th Highest RWKW output from 10 V8's tested but what were you getting from your HSV for your money ? It certainly wasn't handling. For those of you that like them and are going to go out and buy one, good luck to you, i hope they sell heaps of them because I want them to be successful. Although they aren't too bad looking, they're not what i was hoping for. Would I go and buy a new HSV this time around ? .............Nope......"I just don't want one"

[Invasionss]

Whilst the new "V" is all the talk at the moment, i personally think it's lost some feel to it.

The front & rear seats have lost some of their contoured cushion charm. The VX HSV's had the best feel to them with the seats wrapping around you. The front seats don't look to me like they are doing it anymore & the rear seats just look crap house, just like something standard on a executive commie.
307 kw's, woppie bloody do. A whole 10 extra kw's & the GTS is the same. "How Boring"!!! The VX GTS had 300, so there's an extra 7 kw's on the bigger motor. The GTS should have more grunt, pushing higher in the torque & kw range. Very Dissappointing indeed.
What other options are available on the wheel sizes? The triangle wheels are crap.
Is there any point in car makers putting fog lights on when most states it's illegal to have them on. Driving lights, yes, we all love more light on the road that we need to watch out for.

What else can i bitch about?

The brake lights, circular with the indicator inside... maybe i'll have to see it in the dark. But it's crap.
The "E" shaped fenders grilles. Pretty crap.
Brakes, will they ever have big enough brakes??? I suppose brakes are important though.
HSV website is boring. nothing like model selection, colours, wheels. Videos, yeah ok.


Things i like... Hmmmm, not much!!!

Brake cooling. I like this idea that they took from the HRT cars.
HSV's styling their own rear brake lights. Good actually so people can't add to their own commodores. No more lookalike HSV's.

I've finished bitching at the moment as i have a headache!

[Shane-o]

I agree with NickS here, why is power the ultimate be all and end all of a car??

I have a WRX with less than half the power output of my GTS and the Rex will whip my GTS's arse when the road is anything but straight. I love my GTS and would find it very difficult to part with, but I would love it even more if it were a 'complete' package. It looks like HSV has addressed this issue with the new GTS with the emphasis on a total performance car, not just a drag car. If you want insane power levels simply whack on some turbos onto whatever V8 you drive...

For me I like to drive a car that can corner, stop, handle and go...AND if it happens to have the kudos of the HSV GTS badge on it then I'm a happy man.

Cheers
Zombee:)

For starters, Anyone who drag races around corners is a dickhead!
Don't give me that cornering bullshit excuse I hear everytime from Rex owners,Yeah and My Mates Go Kart will out do your Rex so na na, na, na nahh. hahaha (Bike owners feel free to add even more to this)!
I seen a race(movie off net) on a circuit around corners etc etc and Commodore bet Rex,Comes down to Driver mate not the car a lot of the time.
Most new sports cars these days(stock) are within milliseconds/seconds of one another anyway, Performance wise.
Rex's are for Rallies,Parking,Fuel economy,Fast Take off's, Commodores are for Draggin',Cruisin',Shoppin',Family.
Power is everything otherwise you would buy a Hyundai Excel or Ford Ka. :limpy: And also you probably wouldn't be posting on this forum!

Give me more Scotty, GIVE ME MORE!

[Penko]

Whilst the new "V" is all the talk at the moment, i personally think it's lost some feel to it.

The front & rear seats have lost some of their contoured cushion charm. The VX HSV's had the best feel to them with the seats wrapping around you. The front seats don't look to me like they are doing it anymore & the rear seats just look crap house, just like something standard on a executive commie.
307 kw's, woppie bloody do. A whole 10 extra kw's & the GTS is the same. "How Boring"!!! The VX GTS had 300, so there's an extra 7 kw's on the bigger motor. The GTS should have more grunt, pushing higher in the torque & kw range. Very Dissappointing indeed.
What other options are available on the wheel sizes? The triangle wheels are crap.
Is there any point in car makers putting fog lights on when most states it's illegal to have them on. Driving lights, yes, we all love more light on the road that we need to watch out for.

What else can i bitch about?

The brake lights, circular with the indicator inside... maybe i'll have to see it in the dark. But it's crap.
The "E" shaped fenders grilles. Pretty crap.
Brakes, will they ever have big enough brakes??? I suppose brakes are important though.
HSV website is boring. nothing like model selection, colours, wheels. Videos, yeah ok.


Things i like... Hmmmm, not much!!!

Brake cooling. I like this idea that they took from the HRT cars.
HSV's styling their own rear brake lights. Good actually so people can't add to their own commodores. No more lookalike HSV's.

I've finished bitching at the moment as i have a headache!


I completly agree with you. in fact there is no power increase but more weight. i'd like to see them consistantly getting into the 4's with it. like you said they have gone backwards

[HSE2]

Any one seen or know of this feature?

"unique seats (including a re-profiled two-bucket-style, but still three-person rear seat)"

[vyssbeast]

im sure the 0-100 improvement is not due to the 2kw difference but improved driveline/suspension. More power is actually making it to the rear wheels (dont forget the C4B was being dynoed at what 240rwkw?? probably less)
if the newer components are gettin more power to the ground and beter suspension stoping dumbshit like axle tramp, beter tyre means beter grip in getting it all down AND improved TC system where it allows enough wheelsspin for a decent launch without cuttin power and getting you nowhere
dont just look at the 297/305 to 307 improvement
as mentioned the SS whipped all those cars around the track
with this new suspension in the GTS and so on i highyl doubt the SSv will beat the GTS around a track but it would come close
yeh sure every1 woulda loved more power on the GTS and i agree but its really not the end of the world, different ratios will give it abit more punch and dont go saying wopty do anyone can change ratios, becoz then its no longer the factory product. Alot of people out there do NO mods. Im sick of hearing this buy a VE SS twin turbo the thing and still have more change left over than if you buy a GTS .. but ... its an SS ... not GTS to some people that matters more than how much rwkw and that you can kick it sideways at 160ks becuase of how much power you have
the new E is an entirely new and improved package that will surprise some
thats my opinion
feel free to disagree .. im not loosing any sleep :)

[Invasionss]

More Bitching.

Ok HSV have made better headers/extractors which gives the engine more responsiveness. But i think their efforts are probably along way off the the true aftermarket performance extractors.

What else have they done to the engine to improve the performance???
Have they designed & made a better air intake?
Have they designed a better inlet manifold?
Have they designed a better exhaust?

ok, i agree, i'm a bitch of a person to impress & to keep happy...

[Road Warrior]

Any one seen or know of this feature?

"unique seats (including a re-profiled two-bucket-style, but still three-person rear seat)"

Sounds like its the same sort of setup as the Munro.

Personally I think the fact that the GTS has no more power than the Clubsport is an absolute farce. The GTS is supposed to be HSV's top shelf weapon. You would expect to have a bit more power than the Clubspurt if you were forking out the extra for it.

[vyssbeast]

just a though
but since everyone always had this thought that the GTS is the flagship top shelf product it must have something that the rest dont have... in the past this has been the C4B ... now they may have decided to add something else being the suspension and whatever extras it comes standard with ...
not sure if this is what they were thinkin though
but someone did mention if they keep uping the power every model, in a few years 350kw will be standard on a clubby and everyone will be saying why isnt the gts 370?? the VE is all new so perhaps thats good enough for now
the extra power will come with the minor updates along the track to keep customers interested and to have added some element of change beyond previous models?? all speculation
but in the end no point bitching all day long
its hsvs decision its the product they have decided to put out and some will buy some wont ... if you think the GTS is an R8 with abit more goodies and not worth the extra $$ then go the R8

[Zombee]

For starters, Anyone who drag races around corners is a dickhead!
Don't give me that cornering bullshit excuse I hear everytime from Rex owners,Yeah and My Mates Go Kart will out do your Rex so na na, na, na nahh. hahaha (Bike owners feel free to add even more to this)!
I seen a race(movie off net) on a circuit around corners etc etc and Commodore bet Rex,Comes down to Driver mate not the car a lot of the time.
Most new sports cars these days(stock) are within milliseconds/seconds of one another anyway, Performance wise.
Rex's are for Rallies,Parking,Fuel economy,Fast Take off's, Commodores are for Draggin',Cruisin',Shoppin',Family.
Power is everything otherwise you would buy a Hyundai Excel or Ford Ka. And also you probably wouldn't be posting on this forum!

Give me more Scotty, GIVE ME MORE!

I hear what you say about the power Shane-o, I'm thinking of getting TUNA'S twin turbo kit for my VX GTS!! But what I'm saying is that when you buy a performance car it should be good at more than just one thing, my GTS is a great cruiser, a great muscle car with great grunt, I absolutely love it!! My Rex is a great handling car, grunt is not that good. Wouldn't it be great for the car to be great at all things?? I reckon we've been brain washed over the years on SS's & HSV's being all about power. Now maybe HSV has thought that it will add more to its arsenal by not only being damn fast in a straight line, but also handling better too... how can that be a bad thing???

Cheers
Zombee:)

[Alex(AUS)]

Any chance that this could be the next Clubsport with Turbo?

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21Torana2M_m.jpg

Just a thought.

Now, if that happens, I am in!!!

The VE looks good and is technically solid. But, I drive alone 70% of the time (work etc). If I wanted a true performance car, why would I want a huge empty car with the additional weight/size that kills the driving experience? Surely, for a purist, a Commodore (shape) is the wrong true performance car. It certainly will never be that great at handling (as compared to a smaller variant). Therefore, at the very best, the HSV is a GT (excuse the pun) car; and a dahm good one at that.

I know some of you will be upset about this but the HSV is all about the attitude, power, acceleration and comfort; nothing more, nothing less. It must have ridiculous outputs and accelerate quickly while looking like it will bite your head off. So when HSV decided that Kw didn’t matter (ie the modest increase) and the HSV is all about handling I think they lost the plot! The suspension would have been a nice seller (hell I would buy it) as long as the dose of ridiculous power was there as well. I understand what you are all saying about handling vs. power. Handling is better, but lets be realistic HSV has always handled fairly well but it has always been about the power ...

So, if they wanted to introduce a true performance variant would that be the Torana (is it smaller?)? A car that you could live with day to day that was much closer to the mark.

Alex

[james2]

So James, one must own something more expensive than a product to have an opinion on it, or only if they don't like the design of it?... well I am guilty of that then. I don't like the taillights on it either. To be honest, all this hype, I was expecting a little more innovation, rather than just a new shape. If only Peugeot made the 908, and I could afford it...The person wrote looks" shit "am only asking for an explanation. many different views on this new car,i for one would buy it in a heartbeat.I have no problem with anyones point of view however an explanation or reason for their point of view would be appreciated.

[Savannah]

I can't even get onto the website to have a look!

So, can some of you who have been playing on there for hours configuring your GTS or R8 GTF Off and let the rest of us dreamers have a quick look?

Please. Or is it some other reason it's not working?

Cheers Savvy.

[Wezza]

Ok, I’m getting back onto this subject again… this changeover price topic is bullshit. I (and a lot of others here) can afford the change over etc, that’s not the point. It’s the fact that HSV have estranged a lot of people by turning a “special” car into just another Holden while killing off the re-sale price. Even thou I can afford it - it sure as hell doesn’t mean that I’m going to buy it or not stand up and say nothing about there bullshit marketing. It’s just not the way to build a customer base.

To all those raving about the car (and yes it looks ok) stop take a deep breath and wait… don’t rush in. Surely there are better places and organisations to donate 30-40k to than HSV? Because that is what you will loose come series two.

Also, if I were a GTS owner I would be pissed now as well. They’ve taken what is a Clubsport R8 and re-branded it as the GTS. The Clubsport has now been branded as a R8. Way to confuse the hell out of people not up with the play.

Still all that said the GTS looks pretty :)
Mate, surely nobody honestly goes and buys a car thinking that they're not going to lose money? If you're unhappy about the amount of money you think you're gonna lose down the track, then i suggest you probably can't afford that car anyway. ;)

Anyhow, i do love the interiors, red is probably a bit loud for me though. Tail lights look better in those pics, think i'll still have to see them IRL to pass judgement on them. What i do have a HUGE problem with is that terrible black plastic poverty pack style strip around the bottom of the Senator. Hopefully that is only an option, who would want it i dunno. I do think the Senator is the best looking car out of all of them if it weren't for that shit on the bottom.

The GTS rims are hot, i love them!! :) Clubsport rims seem to look alot smaller than 19's & i don't think i really like them too much. The massive tyres will look awesome from the back. It's about time you could get some decent rubber under a Commodore.

[Ghosn]

The AP 6 piston callipers on the VZ are not on the the VE or Available as an option.

all they have is same rotor but only 4 piston calliper which very well may be AP but it is definatley not the AP package from the VZ

No shit sherlock.

Where in my post did I mention 6 piston or VZ or you for that matter?

You might need to be a little clearer in your posts if you aren't satisfied with other peoples replies.

[BadMac]

The KW and Torque numbers (307 & 550) are DIN. Same as Ford.

297Kw was 305 DINm so the real gain os only 2KW (DIN).

As I possibly started the "no power increase" discussion. I feel that now that I have had time to research things I should correct myself.

297Kw (SAE) = 301KW (DIN), not 305!

Therefore HSV have increased the power by 6KW with there extractors and exhaust.

Further it is possible that the 307 DIN is a missprint (it may be SAE).

If so then 307 SAE = 311 DIN (for those wishing to compare it with other marques).

[Penko]

On the HSV website it says the GTS brakes from 100km/h - 0 in a shorter distance than a lamborghini gallardo and only 30cm longer than a 911, i find this hard to believe concidering the weight differences, and the brake packages on those cars.

any thoughts feel free to dissagree.

cheers

[BadMac]

I can't even get onto the website to have a look!

So, can some of you who have been playing on there for hours configuring your GTS or R8 GTF Off and let the rest of us dreamers have a quick look?

Please. Or is it some other reason it's not working?

Cheers Savvy.

It worked fine for me 5 minutes ago (9:00pm).

[Penko]

AP brakes are standard across the whole range.

thats where u mentioned the AP package, my apologies thought u ment this was the same package as the VZ becuase thats wat i was talking about,

anyway the VE use bosch brakes

[Savannah]

It worked fine for me 5 minutes ago (9:00pm).

Thanks BadMac.

It's still not working for me, I'll console myself with the little vid in the launch email. The GTS looks the goods. As long as it's a great car to drive, loves the open road and can get me past a road train very quickly I'll be happy.

Savvy.

[Carby]

They're even a bit sneaky in the way they portray that you're getting an extra 10KW over the VZ, it is NOT noted beside all power figures quoted on their site that it is a DIN measurement.People are going to rant on here about the handling and driveability improvements, well that's as a result of the product that Holden have given them to work with but the truth will be in the pudding when it gets tested. 4.96 to the 100? No doubt they achieved it but how many attempts in perfect conditions did it take to get that ? I'd like to see one get that carrying extra weight and with a 2KW (DIN) power increase. The only differences are the wider tyres and Diff ratios. The Senator : not a bad overall package and probably the pick of the bunch considering the market they have targeted it at. I can't help but think back to the May 2005 edition of Motor Magazine where they tested all of the Fords/FPV's 6/8's and Turbos against the Holden/HSV's 6/8's (The Typhoon was not represented) and the Holden SS beat all-comers and got the quickest time around Eastern Creek. So sure it's not all about power because the SS only achieved the 8th Highest RWKW output from 10 V8's tested but what were you getting from your HSV for your money ? It certainly wasn't handling. For those of you that like them and are going to go out and buy one, good luck to you, i hope they sell heaps of them because I want them to be successful. Although they aren't too bad looking, they're not what i was hoping for. Would I go and buy a new HSV this time around ? .............Nope......"I just don't want one"

I too do well recall the MOTOR test when the SS upstaged all the HSV's around eastern Creek - however to be fair to the HSV's the SS was only quicker over one lap, the brakes having given up the ghost and the Clubbies biggest let down were the Pirellis compared to the Bridgestone shod SS.

Yes I too am cynical on this shift to DIN standard over ECE standard.

Basically HSV have done stuff all with the old VZ engine and thrown it into the VE, so in that respect the car is disappointing. What isn't disappointing is the looks of the new HSV's and by the sound of it their suspension. However I'm with you and won't be updating to a E series HSV quite yet, even though I'm sure the GTS will reclaim from the Typhoon, the Aussies performance King mantle. If they get another 20KW in the next series however, that may change my mind.

[Vulture]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that HSV are 'foxing' with the outputs ie deliberately understating it?

[Ghosn]

thats where u mentioned the AP package, my apologies thought u ment this was the same package as the VZ becuase thats wat i was talking about,

anyway the VE use bosch brakes

This is from Carpoint.com.au and at the same time my help u understand why the VE also brakes better. They might not be 6 piston at the front but rotor size front and back are now larger.


The E-Series get new AP Racing four-piston brakes as standard with 365mm front rotors. The rear brakes can now be larger (now 350mm) and do more work thanks to the car's better weight distribution.

[BadMac]

Thanks BadMac.

It's still not working for me, I'll console myself with the little vid in the launch email. The GTS looks the goods. As long as it's a great car to drive, loves the open road and can get me past a road train very quickly I'll be happy.

Savvy.

Not sure which Vid you mean, but I hadn't seen this one.

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=2122...te=2878&flash=1
Driving a HSV Senator including a cool demo on MRC.

[TigerMon]

The new HSV website is terrible! The colours look nothing like the ones on the Holden website, especially when you configure a Clubsport. Ignition looks like red and in Impulse Blue most of the car is black, like it's harlequin.

The general configurator view is pretty crap also. GTS view is from the front bottom passenger, can't see the car, just the spoiler. Not good for trying to get an idea of what the cars look like and a big waste of the web (wotw).

Have to check one in real life this weekend.

[Penko]

This is from Carpoint.com.au and at the same time my help u understand why the VE also brakes better. They might not be 6 piston at the front but rotor size front and back are now larger.

Thanks for the info

cheers

[Savannah]

Not sure which Vid you mean, but I hadn't seen this one.

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=2122...te=2878&flash=1
Driving a HSV Senator including a cool demo on MRC.

Nup, I keep getting a vid on David Hick's lawyer!!!!

Arh! It's doing my head in! :weirdo:

I'm knackered and going to bed the HSV's will just have to wait.

[vyssbeast]

any coments about the supposed 100-0 braking figures??

[Alex(AUS)]

As I possibly started the "no power increase" discussion. I feel that now that I have had time to research things I should correct myself.

297Kw (SAE) = 301KW (DIN), not 305!

Therefore HSV have increased the power by 6KW with there extractors and exhaust.

Further it is possible that the 307 DIN is a missprint (it may be SAE).

If so then 307 SAE = 311 DIN (for those wishing to compare it with other marques).

I am pretty sure that HSV listed/lists the 297 as 305 DIN (both on their website) and Ford uses ECE on their website (at one stage with same numbers as now). I havent checked this for a while but I am pretty sure. Also, I would assume the DIN measure on the HSV site is a typo / wrong because they must quote ECE (from the start of the year on?) and you would get more than 2kw from extractors and a remap.

Alex

[Sonic_Brew]

I dont see a huge difference over what holden has to offer.

dont know what sales are gonna be like...

[BadMac]

Nup, I keep getting a vid on David Hick's lawyer!!!!

Arh! It's doing my head in! :weirdo:

I'm knackered and going to bed the HSV's will just have to wait.

Sorry not sure what happened there. Is this any better? It works for me.

http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=21221&sy=drive&source=drive.com.au%2FEditorial%2FArticleDetail.as px%3FArticleID%3D19430%26vf%3D2&t=0MBO31&ie=1&player=wm7&rate=2878&flash=1

[jaykay]

Man there are some passionate people on here. Just got on and read 3 to 4 pages of full on like or dislike of the VE HSV's.

This is how the VE thread went - and you know what ? Nobody had driven them at that stage. Same again, nobody has driven the HSV's yet. :teach:

Can't wait to read the discussions when they have been driven. I feel HSV are foxing and are saving something special for VE II. Why wouldn't they bring the Clubsport out again ? Isn't it their biggest seller ? Must be something special coming like a turbo 6 IMO.

Also HSV must have something in store other than GTS as well.

What about 7.0 litre 377kW GTS-R ??? For people who want the ultimate weapon but can also afford to pay for it.....:idea:

[sandmanls1]

few moans...

why no leather std on the r8 when the ssv has it?

why no 6 piston fronts any more esp on the GTS?

other than that looks great not sure about the rear tail lights.

this is how you do a website...


http://www.mercedes-amg.com/

[Road Warrior]

just a though
but since everyone always had this thought that the GTS is the flagship top shelf product it must have something that the rest dont have... in the past this has been the C4B ... now they may have decided to add something else being the suspension and whatever extras it comes standard with ...
not sure if this is what they were thinkin though
but someone did mention if they keep uping the power every model, in a few years 350kw will be standard on a clubby and everyone will be saying why isnt the gts 370?? the VE is all new so perhaps thats good enough for now
the extra power will come with the minor updates along the track to keep customers interested and to have added some element of change beyond previous models?? all speculation
but in the end no point bitching all day long
its hsvs decision its the product they have decided to put out and some will buy some wont ... if you think the GTS is an R8 with abit more goodies and not worth the extra $$ then go the R8

Yeah but but but...HSV set their own precedent ages ago with pretty much every model GTS...all of them, from VP right through to VX had more power than any other model in their own range or Holdens. They created a fan and buyer base who would buy these things because they had that power and equipment premium. Now the power premium has been removed, instead relying on speccier equipment levels to woo the punters.

[BLACK expreSS-V]

The configurator on the HSV site is pretty ordinary...

One thing I did notice was the the leather option is $2490 !!!!!

Ouch.

[BadMac]

few moans...

why no leather std on the r8 when the ssv has it?

why no 6 piston fronts any more esp on the GTS?

other than that looks great not sure about the rear tail lights.

this is how you do a website...


http://www.mercedes-amg.com/

And what about people like me who don't want/like leather? HSV need to cater to more than just one taste, hence R8 can be either.

And that web site.
Assumes a browser resolution (not my default one!) and hence won't rescale for higher/lower res.
I know it should be obvious to click the start button, but after saying loading I expected something to happen.
Other than that once you are in its a great site, although personally I hate flash sites, they are so slow and limited.

[jaykay]

And what about people like me who don't want/like leather? HSV need to cater to more than just one taste, hence R8 can be either.
Agree with what you say BadMac, but the R8 in VZ had leather as standard and now it is a $2,500 option. Why ?

Is it to cater for the fact that there is no Clubsport at the moment ? Do HSV intend for you to configure the R8 to be a Clubsport or a real R8 by paying more ??

[vt350phantom]

Has anyone thought of the possibility that HSV are 'foxing' with the outputs ie deliberately understating it?

Interesting point, HSV are claiming 0-100 in 4.96s in a manual. Considering no Z series car could match this and they had about the same power and less weight, somthing doesn't quite add up??????

:teach:

[sandmanls1]

I suspect they are relying on the fact that the VE should be able to put the power down a lot better than the VZ despite weighing approx 100kg more, ie rear suspension much improved over vz

[XLR8 V8]

Agree with what you say BadMac, but the R8 in VZ had leather as standard and now it is a $2,500 option. Why ?

Is it to cater for the fact that there is no Clubsport at the moment ? Do HSV intend for you to configure the R8 to be a Clubsport or a real R8 by paying more ??

The new R8 is also cheaper than the previous R8, even after tossing an extra $2500 at it to take the leather option. Some people don't like leather seating, so HSV have catered to them as well. It's a good call IMO

[GTS454]

HSV need to put up more photo's:teach:

Anyone know were the Build Plate # is placed.

Dont forget R8 is now about 10g's cheaper.:thumbsup:

[Ghosn]

Interesting point, HSV are claiming 0-100 in 4.96s in a manual. Considering no Z series car could match this and they had about the same power and less weight, somthing doesn't quite add up??????

:teach:

And there are reasons for that. Do some research and u'll find a host of new performance upgrades besides what most people tend to focus on and that being 'Peak Power'. :idea:

[Ghia351]

I am pretty sure that HSV listed/lists the 297 as 305 DIN (both on their website) and Ford uses ECE on their website (at one stage with same numbers as now). I havent checked this for a while but I am pretty sure. Also, I would assume the DIN measure on the HSV site is a typo / wrong because they must quote ECE (from the start of the year on?) and you would get more than 2kw from extractors and a remap.

Alex
Ford/FPV still quote in DIN.

[Ls1CorpCruiser]

Hey XLR8V8!!!

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0682_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0683_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0685_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0686_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0687_sml.JPG

[Ghosn]

Nice work Rob. Can anyone tell if that Clubsport is evoke or phantom?

Rego Plates:
GTS: GTSMRC
CLUBBY: VELS-2
SEN: HSVVIP

[Ls1CorpCruiser]

thanks Ghosn... there are more to come... poor XLR8V8 really has his work cut out tonite and I appreciate the help hosting the images...

These cars look absolutely PHAT in the metal and I cant wait to see the new Grange....

:banana: :banana: :banana:

err!!!!

XLR8V8... you gonna upload the rest of them for the lads???

:werd: :driving: :thumbsup:

[myles]

This is the drive video reviewing the Senator:
http://media.drive.com.au/?rid=21221&sy=drive&source=drive.com.au%2FEditorial%2FArticleDetail.as px%3FArticleID%3D19430%26vf%3D2&t=2UTL3H&player=wm6&rate=1451&flash=0&ie=0

Here are the drive pics:

MOD EDIT: Please don't link directly to images hosted by Drive - rehost them elsewhere before posting

[Ls1CorpCruiser]

Nice work Rob. Can anyone tell if that Clubsport is evoke or phantom?

Rego Plates:
GTS: GTSMRC
CLUBBY: VELS-2
SEN: HSVVIP

Yeah and I've got HSVHRT and HSVVE-8 if anyone wants to make a serious offer!!!

PS check your inbox... someones gotta host the rest of these pics...

[myles]

thanks Ghosn... there are more to come... poor XLR8V8 really has his work cut out tonite and I appreciate the help hosting the images...

These cars look absolutely PHAT in the metal and I cant wait to see the new Grange....

:banana: :banana: :banana:

err!!!!

XLR8V8... you gonna upload the rest of them for the lads???

:werd: :driving: :thumbsup:

Best pics so far. :thumbsup:

[jaykay]

MOD EDIT: Please don't link directly to images hosted by Drive - rehost them elsewhere before posting

This view really shows there is room for adaptation to become a hatch !!!! :teach:

Bring it on .....

[Ghosn]

More pics courtesy of Rob "LS1CorpCruiser"

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/ghosn/IMG_0676_sml.JPG

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/ghosn/IMG_0677_sml.JPG

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/ghosn/IMG_0678_sml.JPG

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/ghosn/IMG_0680_sml.JPG

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/ghosn/IMG_0681_sml.JPG

[myles]

Upload your pics to:
http://freeshare.us/

[jaykay]

Did anyone hear them running ???

[Wezza]

I think if that plastic strip was a nice pale gold or a silver like the old 2 tone Calais, it would look SO much better. I guess if you bought a dark coloured one, it wouldn't stand out so much.

The tail lights are actually growing on me really quickly, they are looking better and better with every new pic i see. As are the GTS wheels, but i loved them to start with. Still don't like the R8 wheels, i can't believe they're only an inch smaller than the GTS ones. They don't even look close to the same size. I'm keen to get a look at one in the flesh. :)

[XLR8 V8]

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0688_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0689_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0691_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0692_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0693_sml.JPG

Loving that Evoke colour! Very similar to the old Gunmetal grey

[vyssbeast]

where were these taken??

[Brass Munky]

Some nice photos there, its looking better and better each time i look

[VE Turbo]

Guys,
I'm most likely going to get flamed on this but it has to be said.
The tail lights.
Notice the ugly and crooked panel join in that close up pic of the red one.
That join also goes to the top of the rear guard, obviously to fill that section that had the normal lights in it from the stock models.
The vertical slots behind the front wheels.
This is also another cut and shut job, notice the ugly join above the indicator repeater. yuk.
We know from previous posts, (months ago) that the entire side of the car is stamped from one tool.
HSV have cut bits out of the side and put bits in, with joins.
When you notice the joins and really look at them, it is a turn off, well, for me anyway.
I much prefer the clean sides of the SS, NO JOINS!

[EfiJy]

think about it. if the ls2 was 297 ece and now ve has extractrs how could power rise by only 2kw? the extractors are worth 10kw for sure.

[VE Turbo]

MOD EDIT: Please don't link directly to images hosted by Drive - rehost them elsewhere before posting

The close up pic of the 307 badge is the shot I'm talking about.

[Brass Munky]

Its something thats going to happen with a mass produced product that is a modified version of another. I could deal with it, if i had the cash to purchase such car. Although the clean lines of the Ss are nice

[GTO_]

FPV have got PLENTY to worry about!
I'm not saying FPV's turbo 6 won't lick a VE. But I don't want a turbo 6, & neither do most of the members of this forum. In any case, a fraction of a second difference over a quarter mile doesn't mean much to me, & there's a lot more to the HSV VE than that. I want a V8, & the LS2, still in its very basic VE guise, is still streets ahead of the Ford V8 engine, which, from what I've heard, has very little potential. In addition, if any of the "series 11" Falcon front, ends up on the FPV cars, that will be further concern (for FPV).
But hey, everyone's entitled to their opinion, but the only real way to see who's done the job right will be to look at the sales figures in 12 months time.-My bet is that HSV will be even further in front than they are now.
Cheers, Pickles.

Like I posted earlier if it's a V8 sedan you want, yes I agree the GM product has the goods. But overall performance? My original remarks stand. FPV aren't worried at all. Also last time I checked FPV were ahead in sales over HSV, so where the "further ahead" comment comes from is beyond me. If your talking about sales over the years? No sh@#! HSV should be ahead of FPV it's been around 15 years longer.

A fraction of a second might not mean much to you, but means much to many others that race there cars. Not everyone buys a high powered car to drive it like a :limpy:, wether it be on the 1/4 or street. (Politcaly correct memebers who don't like those comments, I don't care everyone does it).
If your not interested in performance, why do u keep making posts about Walkinshaw Performance and what they're doing? Ahhhh your not into power but track work and handling? Well why did you buy an Auto then? Seems to me your opinions never make sense anyway! Full of contradictions. :stick:

Who has told you the Ford V8 has little potential? :lmao:, Mate you need to get new sources. I wouldnt call close to 300rwkw out of a BOSS without cam changes as "no potential". The engine is actually quite a good unit and has far superior top end mechanicals to anything out of the GM stable (you obviously haven't seen an LS1 or BOSS 290 pulled apart). Iron blocks also are stronger! Don't believe me, ask the guys who have split bores with their Turbo LS1 (yesssssssss we don't hear these wonderful facts on the forum, but if you know a few poeple you would have seen these cars (in the workshops) with engines out in the flesh ... split bores from too much boost). Guess what? they're now going to iron block setups.

The VE looks better (in spec) than previous Holdens, no doubt. But lets not kid ourselves, any car can be made to handle. Otherwise you wouldnt get HSV GTS's, Clubsports and FPV GT's beating EVO's and STi's in production car racing. End of the day, no one goes around corners quick (espec not in the major cities or susburbs), so telling me it can out handle means sqaut unless your on a track. Striaght line is where you measure up the smart ar@# next to you. The way I see it the VE isn't that much quicker than the VZ if at all. This has been explained in the first reveiw of the VE as well. How HSV got the times down? Better rear end, wider tyres, shorter diff gearing and a revised TC system which doesnt rob as much power on take off's. All makes sense to me.

I do like the HSV VE, in certain colours it looks great. GTS is my pick of the bunch. But I did expect a far bigger power wack. Closer to 340kw (ECE) not the exagerated (DIN) figure.

[XLR8 V8]

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0695_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0696_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0697_sml.JPG
http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0698_sml.JPG

[vxtreem]

I'm sorry people the HSV's are not working at all.
I know you will probably say, 'wait til you see it in the flesh', and Ive always reserved judgement til actually seeing new cars up close and personal. But I know for a fact that tacked on plastic panels will not work for me and to make things worse some bits aren’t even colour coded and left in raw black plastic.:spew:
I don’t even know of any other High Performance Saloon cars at this price 70k + that carry this sort of style, what are they trying to achieve with this design. Especially the Senator; there's just too much, from my perspective the Senator has always been the model that’s like a stealth bomber. It will happily cruise by without drawing to much attention but when called upon it can unleash some serious weaponry. This E series is not doing that at all. Sure it's got the powerplant and suspension to run rings around the competition but having the tacked on bits is just screaming help me please.
My money# will stay with a Calais V or SS V and 10k for mods and still be in front. # Pretend money, I really couldn’t afford an 70k + car.
Please feel free to try and convince me otherwise.
I will still go and have a good look at the range in person.

[pteropid]

I'm sorry people the HSV's are not working at all.
I know you will probably say, 'wait til you see it in the flesh', and Ive always reserved judgement til actually seeing new cars up close and personal. But I know for a fact that tacked on plastic panels will not work for me and to make things worse some bits aren’t even colour coded and left in raw black plastic.:spew:


With you on that one dude, I must say I'm a little dissapointed with the new batch, the missus and I were hoping to make one of these the new upgrade.

Absolutely love the new interior, but the black plastic bits hanging here and there with THOSE tail lights make it look like a mazda 6 and BA ford's love-child.

Checked out a Calais V in the flesh on Saturday and have to admit, it's the front runner over the HSVs at the moment IMHO. Although that grey colour may save the day. I wasn't a big fan of the Ys when they came out, but they grew on me. Hopefully the Es will do the same.

[NickS]

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0692_sml.JPG

http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0693_sml.JPG

That colour is awesome ... thanks for sticking those shots up, I am now sold on a GTS in Evoke :thumbsup:

[timshall1]

i like how they selectively miss out the e55/m5 from respective manufacturers.....fair enough they put the audi rs4 in because it only has a 2 kw advantage so does not look too bad.

Well...you can kind of see why they've left out the E55 and M5. Look at the price differential! It's collossal! For the HSV you'd be paying up to AU$76,990, whereas for the european performance cars such as the RS4, M5 etc you'd be paying hundreds of thousands. Look at the RS4 price on that table: $164,500. There's really not much point in them including any other German "super-saloons", as the price differential is simply so massive that any comparison between them would be pointless.

What they are trying to show with that table is that you can get an HSV with similar spec to european cars that cost more than twice as much; or conversely, if you want to spend HSV money on a euro car you're going to have to head down the povo-pack route and miss out on virtually all the performance features that are standard on the HSV. The only european car on that list that is cheaper than an HSV is the beemer 325 - with a 160KW 2.5 engine. Surely that speaks for itself?

Cheers

Tim

[Exithouse]

Agree with what you say BadMac, but the R8 in VZ had leather as standard and now it is a $2,500 option. Why ?

Is it to cater for the fact that there is no Clubsport at the moment ? Do HSV intend for you to configure the R8 to be a Clubsport or a real R8 by paying more ??

Question? When is a R8 not an R8... Answer: when its only a ClubSport with R8 badges on it.


The new R8 is also cheaper than the previous R8, even after tossing an extra $2500 at it to take the leather option. Some people don't like leather seating, so HSV have catered to them as well. It's a good call IMO

Yeah, that’s fine but don’t call it a R8 when it is only a ClubSport… People know what to expect when they look at a R8 – leather etc – now it’s a lottery…

The “R8” is only cheaper if you look at it from the HSV marketing point of view… what you negated to say was that the stock stand model is down on the previous R8 spec and that you’ve lost roughly 10k on any trade in because of the run sale bullshit.


I'm sorry people the HSV's are not working at all.
I know you will probably say, 'wait til you see it in the flesh', and Ive always reserved judgement til actually seeing new cars up close and personal. But I know for a fact that tacked on plastic panels will not work for me and to make things worse some bits aren’t even colour coded and left in raw black plastic.:spew:
I don’t even know of any other High Performance Saloon cars at this price 70k + that carry this sort of style, what are they trying to achieve with this design. Especially the Senator; there's just too much, from my perspective the Senator has always been the model that’s like a stealth bomber. It will happily cruise by without drawing to much attention but when called upon it can unleash some serious weaponry. This E series is not doing that at all. Sure it's got the powerplant and suspension to run rings around the competition but having the tacked on bits is just screaming help me please.
My money# will stay with a Calais V or SS V and 10k for mods and still be in front. # Pretend money, I really couldn’t afford an 70k + car.
Please feel free to try and convince me otherwise.
I will still go and have a good look at the range in person.

Those outside photos actually make the plastic parts look even more “plastic”. The VX ClubSport body shape still looks beater than the VE IMO. The inside is just so plastic looking – I just don’t like the red colouring on the GTS. Red plastic just looks so cheap to me…


Its something thats going to happen with a mass produced product that is a modified version of another. I could deal with it, if i had the cash to purchase such car. Although the clean lines of the Ss are nice

Maybe, but other car manufactories seem to pull it off :) The SSV is by far the best value for money deal. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… wait for Series II. Satellite Navigation isn’t even available in this model at the moment… If the Maloo series is released next year with the 6.2l engine these VE’s will deprecate just as fast as an AU model Falcon…

[vysandman]

[QUOTE=Carby;703394]I too do well recall the MOTOR test when the SS upstaged all the HSV's around eastern Creek - however to be fair to the HSV's the SS was only quicker over one lap, the brakes having given up the ghost and the Clubbies biggest let down were the Pirellis compared to the Bridgestone shod SS.

QUOTE]

Yeah that's true Carby but I'm sure you agree that an SS shouldn't beat ANY HSV around a track and after all it was a 1 lap test. Sure the brakes on the SS were crap but that can be easily fixed and what are HSV doing putting Pirellis on if they're no good ? Surely the HSV's are set up handle better than a Holden because they don't go much better than one. Just in the Holden/HSV V8 range it claimed the scalps of the Clubsport, Coupe 4, SV8, Monaro CV8 and the GTO Coupe. It would be interesting to see the same comparison on the E series.

[Cobalt]

I have seen a couple of posts about the ECE v's DIN thing....

If you want some reading.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower#hp_.28DIN.29

An exerpt follows



SNIP

(DIN)
DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower.


hp (ECE)
ECE R24 is another standard for measuring net horsepower. It is quite similar to the DIN 70020 standard, but the requirement for connecting an engine's fan during testing varies. ECE is seen as slightly more liberal than DIN, and ECE figures tend to be slightly higher than DIN. John Deere is one strong adherent to ECE testing.

SNIP


There seems to be no hard and fast difference in power output regardless what Holdem/HSV have said in the past.

Holden have said previously that their 297 ece equated to roughly 290 din... to match the Ford GT

If you use that relation ship The power difference is higher with it being equal to 314 Kw BUT and it is a big but...... that assumes a linear relationship with power and it very seldom is.....

I suggest waiting for them to go up or a familiar dyno near you with a reputable tuner to gauge the difference for yourself...

OR Use your ass as a dyno and go for a test drive......

Cobalt

[Vulture]

I'm sure you agree that an SS shouldn't beat ANY HSV around a track and after all it was a 1 lap test.

I don't know. I think it is kinda hugely relevant that the brakes only lasted one lap. After all, that is what separates serious brakes from the rest - not just one or two stops; the ability to do it again and again ie dissipate heat. It was great that the SS was quicker - hell I thought it was a great laugh - but doing it again and again is what separates the boys from the men. Isn't that what circuit racing is all about? It's not usually one lap. If it was real 'race' the SS would have speared off the track while the HSVs would be merrily hurtling around. As has been stated, it was thought that the tyres played a huge part, also easily fixed.

[Cobalt]

On another topic....

Holden and now HSV have Downgraded all their names.....

Berlina is now Acclaim Spec....

Calais is now Berlina Spec

Calais V (Totally Dumb Name) now Calais

SS > SV8

SS V > SS

R8 > Clubsport

GTS > r8

The specification are not exactly the same as VZ but neither is the prices...

I have an vz r8 and there are not many around.....most hsv's are just clubsports.....

HSV was asking a premium for an upgraded stereo, electric seats, leather, brakes, and linear suspension. The Clubsport was effectively and SV8 with an LS2....

Dualzone climate is now finally standard.....

They still have not put seat position memory in the GTS or CS... FFS a 55K calais gets this..... My wife and I share our cars... what would you like today hun.....and this lack of momory is a huge pain in my ass when im constantly having to change the seat posi ... She is 5.4 and im 6.2... get the picture... and in the rain it is worse....

Maybe I'll wait for the Barge.....

There is so much talk of power figures... WHO CARES.... the easyest thing to make more of is power.....There a hundreds of aftermarket tuners out there that can give you any power increase you want.... so who cares what HSV offer as standard... I have owned many of these cars and none of them have stayed standard for more than a few thousand kays....

I can't easily upgrade the interior of a GTS to the Signature spec....

I can't get HSV to put the GTS kit and on a senator....to get what I wan't

I know that most of you will not give a rats about interior changes....

They should base all the cars on the calais... The top spec that is available in the holden and the add from there....

Ok.... Im getting down of my soapbox now.....

Cobalt

[korrupt]

where were these taken??
Looks like HSV in Clayton ?



http://www.excelerate.com.au/downloads/XLR8V8/hsv/IMG_0691_sml.JPG


Is the boot lid flush with the rear panels in the Holden or does it look like it has sunk in like this pic ?

[Pickles]

Like I posted earlier if it's a V8 sedan you want, yes I agree the GM product has the goods. But overall performance? My original remarks stand. FPV aren't worried at all. Also last time I checked FPV were ahead in sales over HSV, so where the "further ahead" comment comes from is beyond me. If your talking about sales over the years? No sh@#! HSV should be ahead of FPV it's been around 15 years longer.

A fraction of a second might not mean much to you, but means much to many others that race there cars. Not everyone buys a high powered car to drive it like a :limpy:, wether it be on the 1/4 or street. (Politcaly correct memebers who don't like those comments, I don't care everyone does it).
If your not interested in performance, why do u keep making posts about Walkinshaw Performance and what they're doing? Ahhhh your not into power but track work and handling? Well why did you buy an Auto then? Seems to me your opinions never make sense anyway! Full of contradictions. :stick:

Who has told you the Ford V8 has little potential? :lmao:, Mate you need to get new sources. I wouldnt call close to 300rwkw out of a BOSS without cam changes as "no potential". The engine is actually quite a good unit and has far superior top end mechanicals to anything out of the GM stable (you obviously haven't seen an LS1 or BOSS 290 pulled apart). Iron blocks also are stronger! Don't believe me, ask the guys who have split bores with their Turbo LS1 (yesssssssss we don't hear these wonderful facts on the forum, but if you know a few poeple you would have seen these cars (in the workshops) with engines out in the flesh ... split bores from too much boost). Guess what? they're now going to iron block setups.

The VE looks better (in spec) than previous Holdens, no doubt. But lets not kid ourselves, any car can be made to handle. Otherwise you wouldnt get HSV GTS's, Clubsports and FPV GT's beating EVO's and STi's in production car racing. End of the day, no one goes around corners quick (espec not in the major cities or susburbs), so telling me it can out handle means sqaut unless your on a track. Striaght line is where you measure up the smart ar@# next to you. The way I see it the VE isn't that much quicker than the VZ if at all. This has been explained in the first reveiw of the VE as well. How HSV got the times down? Better rear end, wider tyres, shorter diff gearing and a revised TC system which doesnt rob as much power on take off's. All makes sense to me.

I do like the HSV VE, in certain colours it looks great. GTS is my pick of the bunch. But I did expect a far bigger power wack. Closer to 340kw (ECE) not the exagerated (DIN) figure.
"Mate"-I don't need "new sources", & it's very sad to see people like yourself, who can't handle anyone's opinion but their own, without getting personal!
"Full of contradictions?"-Well, obviously I don't agree with that, but GTO, I'm very glad to hear that you've actually been reading them, to make such a "qualified" opinion-you're certainly entitled to it, as I'm entitled to mine.
No, I don't get into track work anymore- the reason we bought an auto was that the car is utilised mainly for weekend drives/ holidays etc, & the wife drives it as well, so we find that is what suits us. However, you seem to be interested in straight line performance, & as far as the VZ GTO is concerned, in a straight line, the auto just happens to be a bit quicker--not that it concerns us at all.
As I've said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I respect yours, it's a shame you can't do the same.
Cheers, Pickles.

[Avalanche]

HSV has done well in addressing the issues that held them back with the vz. I dont know if i like all the plastic on the senator. But i wouldnt be in the market to buy one so it doesnt matter. The GTS seems to be the pick of the bunch. The mrc susp makes me want to take one for a test drive to see how well it works. As i will never see the race track i am not worried about the power figures. My avalanche is down compared to the rear drive models, but i wouldnt swap the way it drives for the world. For me , its the long trips on all differing types of roads that counts as well as all different weather conditions. If the gts is an improvement over what the ava drives like then i would be stoked to own one as well.

[Carby650]

Looks like HSV in Clayton ?



Is the boot lid flush with the rear panels in the Holden or does it look like it has sunk in like this pic ?

My eyes must be playing tricks on me. Those tyres just don't look like 275's in that photo.

[V8BRUTE]

Out of all those pics only the evoke Clubby looks good to me, the GTS looks ok but some of the panels have alignment issues especially the one between the bootlid and LH rear tail light :eek: The GTS interior is a real eyesore, why the hell they stole half an SS-V red dash I don't know, the contrast of the grey/black with the red leather looks :spew:

Still can't see any reason to go higher than an SS-V as yet, upgrade to the 20" wheels and you have a smart looking car :yup:

[Veeate]

My eyes must be playing tricks on me. Those tyres just don't look like 275's in that photo.

I thought exactly the same. I was hoping , from that rear shot , that the tyre width would 'stand out' more. Bloke at work here has a Porsche 911. I love coming up behind his car and seeing the 'impression' his 285 tyres make. Am hoping 275's on a HSV make a similar statement.

[Carby]

[QUOTE=Carby;703394]I too do well recall the MOTOR test when the SS upstaged all the HSV's around eastern Creek - however to be fair to the HSV's the SS was only quicker over one lap, the brakes having given up the ghost and the Clubbies biggest let down were the Pirellis compared to the Bridgestone shod SS.

QUOTE]

Yeah that's true Carby but I'm sure you agree that an SS shouldn't beat ANY HSV around a track and after all it was a 1 lap test. Sure the brakes on the SS were crap but that can be easily fixed and what are HSV doing putting Pirellis on if they're no good ? Surely the HSV's are set up handle better than a Holden because they don't go much better than one. Just in the Holden/HSV V8 range it claimed the scalps of the Clubsport, Coupe 4, SV8, Monaro CV8 and the GTO Coupe. It would be interesting to see the same comparison on the E series.

Have to agree - if you market yourself as the Holden Premium Performance vehicle you should be able to knock off the SS over any distance.

Hope there is a comparison made between the SS and HSV's.

[Aus8]

I have got to say these dont interest me at all. Not that its a bad car just that the CalaisV is more attractive to me.

[Wezza]

Do some of you people realise that the red interior in trhe GTS is an option??? Quit the whinging about it, if you were going to order one, you don't have to have the loud interior. I personally am not a fan of bright coloured interiors, but i'm not jumping up and down about it. It's all about choices, i just can't understand why people shoot down HSV for offering a couple of different coloured interiors.

GTO_: Dude, the BOSS V8 is a boat anchor, everybody knows it. I really don't know where you're coming up with some of your claims like, "FPV is not worried" etc etc, and you know this how?? Of course they would be a little worried, just like HSV would be when FPV come out with new products. Do you even own a GTO? I'm doubting it at them moment. I do agree with you that the Ford turbo 6 is a great engine & the F6 is a great car. Hmmmm, are you sure you don't own one of them?

[Gapps]

Ha Ha Ha Boat anchor!!! lol (o:

[hsvLS1255]

Ha Ha Ha Boat anchor!!! lol (o:

more like....

banned after first post... HAHAHAHAHAHA

we dont need fools like you around here.

[JNP304]

GTO, where are you getting your info from? I dont want to get into a Holden v Ford slanging match. But come on the 5.4 Boss IS a far harder engine to modify and generally its an anchor. Ford Aus took a yank bottom end and adapted the top end to suit. It was a bit and pieces engine and I HAVE driven the V8. Nice and smooth in stock form. But potential to increase power and s/c ect with reliablilty? NO way. Ford Aus admits the engine is "undersquare" due to its bits and peices design and therefore heaps of mods and high revs this thing will be poking a leg out of bed in no time. The thing wont rev like the LS2, its a truck engine.
Also I think in reguard to HSV clubsport being far superior to Holden, the gap has never been that big in terms of performance. VNSS(165kw) to VN Clubsport(180kw). Or VR/VS SS with 185 option was same power as the VS Clubsport. I think the 270/307 difference now in the VE is more than enough to seperate the two. People have been talking like the HSV was worlds apart in the past.
I now get off soapbox and put flame suit on from BOSS v8 advocates.

[VX11SS]

Mate, surely nobody honestly goes and buys a car thinking that they're not going to lose money? If you're unhappy about the amount of money you think you're gonna lose down the track, then i suggest you probably can't afford that car anyway. ;)

.
What a load of rubbish, I CAN afford too lose money on a car - check my profile, doesnt mean I dont think to myself to I really want to throw 30k down the tubes buying a new HSV/Holden with the way they are treating trade ins, fleet discounts etc.
Emotion should only take you so far when purchasing anything. :flipoff:

[Wezza]

What a load of rubbish, I CAN afford too lose money on a car - check my profile, doesnt mean I dont think to myself to I really want to throw 30k down the tubes buying a new HSV/Holden with the way they are treating trade ins, fleet discounts etc.
Emotion should only take you so far when purchasing anything. :flipoff:

If it's like that to you, then don't buy one, go and buy another Porsche or Ferrari or whatever. Oh by the way, i bet you're going to lose a HELL of alot more than 30K when you go to sell it.

[BadMac]

I can't easily upgrade the interior of a GTS to the Signature spec....

I can't get HSV to put the GTS kit and on a senator....to get what I wan't

I know that most of you will not give a rats about interior changes....

They should base all the cars on the calais... The top spec that is available in the holden and the add from there....

Ok.... Im getting down of my soapbox now.....

Cobalt

Agree with you 99%. The beuty of the Clubbie and R8 spec, was that you could choose, low spec interior (less $$$) or Calais Interior. It created a lower entry point and probably saved a little weight for those who wanted a full on performance car. I personally would love to have seen the Calais Spec interior in the GTS, that might have tempted me. Right now I want to see a Mag compare the F6 and the SSV, as well as F6/GTx versus the GTS.

[HSVMAN]

What a load of rubbish, I CAN afford too lose money on a car - check my profile, doesnt mean I dont think to myself to I really want to throw 30k down the tubes buying a new HSV/Holden with the way they are treating trade ins, fleet discounts etc.
Emotion should only take you so far when purchasing anything. :flipoff:

With all due respect, how much have you thrown away with the Porsche? If it's none that's great.
The 2 biggest contributing factors are the current market and unleashed discounting which has run out of control.....until now. Hopefully it can be addressed and people like yourself wont feel so agrieved in the future. At least not as much with a Holden anyway :)

[CV860L]

I am just glad HSV has finally made the step up from 8 inch wide rims.
With any luck this will eventually cause FPV, Holden and Ford to follow suit in the near future.
The 8 inch wide rims are starting to look like pizza cutters especially when parked alongside some of the european vehicles.
Haven't seen a HSV in the flesh as yet but can tell via the pics that the rear guards look properly filled.
Nice work HSV !!!

[VX11SS]

With all due respect, how much have you thrown away with the Porsche? If it's none that's great.
The 2 biggest contributing factors are the current market and unleashed discounting which has run out of control.....until now. Hopefully it can be addressed and people like yourself wont feel so agrieved in the future. At least not as much with a Holden anyway :)

None yet, unlike the 30k I threw away on my R8 thanks to HSV/Holden pricing policy, bearing in mind I bought at 10 k cheaper than list as it was an unfilled order (according to Mark) if i had paid closer to list it would have been 40k in 18 months. Lucky I managed to sell privately as I would have lost even more trading back to an HSV dealer. Its all in the percentages and at the moment Holdens trade values are CRAP as you well know Paul.
I could see the writing on the wall and got out before the loss was over 50 %.

I will not buy new now particularly Holden/HSV until they offer guarenteed trade at 1, 2 and 3 years.
:soap:

[JohnS]

None yet,

YET... i had two porsches and suffered both times. The depreciation on the 996 is especially bad with prices often not much more than a good 993. Many say the 996 will be the forgotten Porsche due to the ugly "fried egg" headlight arrangement that Porsche subsequently corrected on the 997.

If you bought your Posche new in 2004 you would be down at least 125K by now...

[sv285]

Have purchased 3 new hsv in the past 6 years. always a hsv over an ss, my opinion hsv has blown it the ssv looks much better.

one more question can you lower the ride to the MRC setup or are you stuck with the current height?? after purchasing a grange with the auto level suspension kit and being told i had to remove the rear suspension setup to lower the car what a turn off.. you may have the problem with the MRC setup also.

hope series two looks much better and HSV 7litre?? i will sacrifice looks for power. my opinion only

[Wezza]

BTW, whats the story with HSV's configurator on it's website? Can anyone else get it to work? I'm really not liking the new website at all.

[Crusty]

Have purchased 3 new hsv in the past 6 years. always a hsv over an ss, my opinion hsv has blown it the ssv looks much better.

one more question can you lower the ride to the MRC setup or are you stuck with the current height?? after purchasing a grange with the auto level suspension kit and being told i had to remove the rear suspension setup to lower the car what a turn off.. you may have the problem with the MRC setup also.

hope series two looks much better and HSV 7litre?? i will sacrifice looks for power. my opinion only

See the HSV Rideheight is already 102mm ground clearance so lowering any further would make unroadworthy so I guess no need to worry about changing suspension to lower unless its just for show ;) My mate works at a roadworthy centre, said that 100mm rule is with the car fully laiden with fuel and passengers so doesn't see how they can stay above 100mm with a full tank of fuel and 5 passengers?

[RICHO]

BTW, whats the story with HSV's configurator on it's website? Can anyone else get it to work? I'm really not liking the new website at all.

It's working fine....

You just need to make sure you select options at each stage before selecting "next"....

[vyssbeast]

See the HSV Rideheight is already 102mm ground clearance so lowering any further would make unroadworthy so I guess no need to worry about changing suspension to lower unless its just for show ;) My mate works at a roadworthy centre, said that 100mm rule is with the car fully laiden with fuel and passengers so doesn't see how they can stay above 100mm with a full tank of fuel and 5 passengers?

cant see how they would enforce that
if you get pulled over on the side of the road with a dead empty tank and your alone
they cant exactly force you to fill up a whole tank n round up 5 mates just to see if its below the 100mm ... thats probably the rule the manufacturers have to use when they measure it themselves so in theory a hsv with a half empty tank and driver alone would be sitting higher than their specified 102mm

[Holden Man]

more like....

banned after first post... HAHAHAHAHAHA

we dont need fools like you around here.

Bit hard....he was just responding to a comment (not made by him) he thought was funny (probably hasn't heard that term before)

....how is he being a fool ?

[Crusty]

cant see how they would enforce that
if you get pulled over on the side of the road with a dead empty tank and your alone
they cant exactly force you to fill up a whole tank n round up 5 mates just to see if its below the 100mm ... thats probably the rule the manufacturers have to use when they measure it themselves so in theory a hsv with a half empty tank and driver alone would be sitting higher than their specified 102mm

I agree but his point is that according to his roadworthy training the car must be able to be at full capacity and still be at least 100mm ground clearance.

[BLQWN]

Back to the photos..... that unpainted plastic along the lower edge will probably end up being colour coded in series 2 hey?
And those front guard vents look overdone and tacky IMO.
Never liked the old gun metal grey but the evoke looks good on the HSV.

[Knight Phlier]

None yet, unlike the 30k I threw away on my R8 thanks to HSV/Holden pricing policy, bearing in mind I bought at 10 k cheaper than list as it was an unfilled order (according to Mark) if i had paid closer to list it would have been 40k in 18 months. Lucky I managed to sell privately as I would have lost even more trading back to an HSV dealer. Its all in the percentages and at the moment Holdens trade values are CRAP as you well know Paul.
I could see the writing on the wall and got out before the loss was over 50 %.

I will not buy new now particularly Holden/HSV until they offer guarenteed trade at 1, 2 and 3 years.
:soap:

No depreciation on a 2004 Porsche? I do find that hard to believe... On a 911 Turbo you would have lost well more than 30K in 2 years... The percentage may not be the same but the value is.

[Wezza]

No depreciation on a 2004 Porsche? I do find that hard to believe... On a 911 Turbo you would have lost well more than 30K in 2 years... The percentage may not be the same but the value is.
Exactly!! Anybody who buys a car & thinks it's some sort of wise investment, financially speaking, is kidding themselves. Unless of course the vehicle is some sort of rare collectable.

[CV860L]

I think everyone will agree that cars are an expensive indulgance and we are all being screwed in one way or another, it's just the degree that changes.

I came to terms with it a few hundred thousand dollars ago.

May have a heap of debt but no regret.

[Crusty]

I guess if you don't want to lose a heap of money on a vehicle drive a $2000 POS around forever, I know that my lifestyle choice is to have a nice car and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't enjoy driving it, I see the depreciation and running costs as an entertainment cost as well as a necessity.

[Carby]

None yet, unlike the 30k I threw away on my R8 thanks to HSV/Holden pricing policy, bearing in mind I bought at 10 k cheaper than list as it was an unfilled order (according to Mark) if i had paid closer to list it would have been 40k in 18 months. Lucky I managed to sell privately as I would have lost even more trading back to an HSV dealer. Its all in the percentages and at the moment Holdens trade values are CRAP as you well know Paul.
I could see the writing on the wall and got out before the loss was over 50 %.

I will not buy new now particularly Holden/HSV until they offer guarenteed trade at 1, 2 and 3 years.
:soap:

Talking to Finance personnel about offloading cars, most will advise that the best time to offload is after 3 years. In the first two years you take such a large hit - this can be exacerbated by prevailing market conditions as is the case now. After 3 years the decline continues but at a diminishing rate.

Your experience is not confined to HSV's - used BMW M5's are also in a similar situation.

[GTS LSA]

Not that it's any of my business :1peek: .... but ....."MAN" there are some bitter and twisted people about....:confused: (ps I am HRT GTO ...... not GTO)
IMHO you dont buy a car to make money ... you buy it to enjoy........be it and SS or a GTS or a Porsche or dare I say a GT .... buy what you want or can afford ..... if not happy get something different.... but dont attack people...... I do like the GTS.......I like my GTO more .... I will keep it.....I will lose money..... I will probably spend more money on Mods :burnout: that I will never see back......and I will enjoy every damn minute of it....:xmas:

[Crusty]

Talking to Finance personnel about offloading cars, most will advise that the best time to offload is after 3 years. In the first two years you take such a large hit - this can be exacerbated by prevailing market conditions as is the case now. After 3 years the decline continues but at a diminishing rate.

Your experience is not confined to HSV's - used BMW M5's are also in a similar situation.


Exactly why I purchased a 3.5 year old HSV recently, hoping to avoid some of the depreciation while still being able to appreciate the car :)

[Baddaz]

Talking to Finance personnel about offloading cars, most will advise that the best time to offload is after 3 years. In the first two years you take such a large hit - this can be exacerbated by prevailing market conditions as is the case now. After 3 years the decline continues but at a diminishing rate.

Your experience is not confined to HSV's - used BMW M5's are also in a similar situation.

I've got friends who just went to trade their BMW 325i coupe. When they bought it new they were told they'd get $70K as a garrented trade. Turns out after 3 years and only 15000km on the clock it only worth $55K as a trade. But the car yard will sell it for about $70K. Not bad for $125K car. :soap:

You allways seem to lose what ever the car.. So buy what you want and have fun with it I reckeen..

[BadMac]

Not that it's any of my business :1peek: .... but ....."MAN" there are some bitter and twisted people about....:confused: (ps I am HRT GTO ...... not GTO)
IMHO you dont buy a car to make money ... you buy it to enjoy........be it and SS or a GTS or a Porsche or dare I say a GT .... buy what you want or can afford ..... if not happy get something different.... but dont attack people...... I do like the GTS.......I like my GTO more .... I will keep it.....I will lose money..... I will probably spend more money on Mods :burnout: that I will never see back......and I will enjoy every damn minute of it....:xmas:

Here Here.

[Danv8]

Not that it's any of my business :1peek: .... but ....."MAN" there are some bitter and twisted people about....:confused: (ps I am HRT GTO ...... not GTO)
IMHO you dont buy a car to make money ... you buy it to enjoy........be it and SS or a GTS or a Porsche or dare I say a GT .... buy what you want or can afford ..... if not happy get something different.... but dont attack people...... I do like the GTS.......I like my GTO more .... I will keep it.....I will lose money..... I will probably spend more money on Mods :burnout: that I will never see back......and I will enjoy every damn minute of it....:xmas:

Give the man a cigar!
I would never buy a car to make money out of it sure there is some and I mean *some* cars that increase in value but in almost all cases they will lose value over time. Even if you would spend up to $50,000 in modifications in either performance and looks or both the car won't gain in any real value.

Cars don't really = good investments*

*= depending on the car if it gains any value at all.

[Vulture]

All this talk about cars not being investments etc. as all good fun but don't have a go at people just because they want to maximise resale or have that as a factor of purchase. What's wrong with wanting to minimise the hit as much as possible?

[Baddaz]

All this talk about cars not being investments etc. as all good fun but don't have a go at people just because they want to maximise resale or have that as a factor of purchase. What's wrong with wanting to minimise the hit as much as possible?

If everybody waited for 2nd hand cars. Who would end up suppling the the 2nd hand cars for everyone to buy??

I better get the old '35 ford out the shed. It's in parts but worth more then my VX Calais. But I still don't regret buying new. It's been a good Car for the last 5years and when the thing starts playing up we'll sell it.. That's the good thing about buying new.. the 2nd hand market get the costly repair bills and up keep of an older car.......:jester:

[korrupt]

Wasn't carpoint.com.au supposed to have drive impressions up today? I just had a quick look and couldn't see anything.

[Baddaz]

Wasn't carpoint.com.au supposed to have drive impressions up today? I just had a quick look and couldn't see anything.

Nope nothing yet...Only drive posting is from the 20/08..... There's the "New HSVs unleashed" video on there to.

[JohnS]

No depreciation on a 2004 Porsche? I do find that hard to believe... On a 911 Turbo you would have lost well more than 30K in 2 years... The percentage may not be the same but the value is.


More like 125K based on trade in prices :nopity:

[madone]

After having some total tool cross over to the wrong side of the road 5 weeks ago and writeoff the front of my 12 month and 3 week old R8:vpo: , I for one can't wait to get my hands on the new GTS that I've had on order now for the last 3 weeks!

The collection of cars I've borrowed over the last few weeks only highlights why HSV's are so much more than just cars, they're a lifestyle choice we make because we can. Pity the poor buggers that aspire to a new Hyundai or Toyota because they've never known better.

It was a long wait until HSV released the spec's yesterday and I can't wait to see it in the metal at the end of next week for a test drive before taking delivery soon after.

[Invasionss]

Another bitch session. I guess you guys who love the new "V" are pretty pissed off with me bagging it & the guys who hate what it looks like, may want to read more?

The pictures of the 3 "E - V's" outside HSV HQ are pretty crap. I'm not tempted at all to go out & waste my money on one! They look even more shit out in the open & the brake lights, well i explained in my other post. The options for the interiors, some look like very cheap plastic add-ons!

Sorry HSV, you've stuffed up again... I still reckon the VX series was the best looking as it looks very aggressive & demanding on the road. The whole "V" series just does it for me.

To the people who love what it likes like, thats great & i don't wanna get on your darkside, but we all have opinions on things.

I think my bitch is over... This hopefully will be it.

Justin

[seldo]

one more question can you lower the ride to the MRC setup or are you stuck with the current height?? after purchasing a grange with the auto level suspension kit and being told i had to remove the rear suspension setup to lower the car what a turn off.. you may have the problem with the MRC setup also.


Someone is pulling your chain....I also have or had the self-levelling suspension in my Senator. All I did was change the shocks to Konis and pull the suspension compressor fuse. Problem solved.

[BigJim]

I've got friends who just went to trade their BMW 325i coupe. When they bought it new they were told they'd get $70K as a garrented trade. Turns out after 3 years and only 15000km on the clock it only worth $55K as a trade. But the car yard will sell it for about $70K. Not bad for $125K car. :soap:

You allways seem to lose what ever the car.. So buy what you want and have fun with it I reckeen..

I have a mate who bought an SLK230 Merc Hardtop Special edition for $109000 in 2002 and traded it after 18 months with 17000klms on it for $76000 through the same Merc dealer.

People are saying we get screwed on HSV and holdens then try buying a Merc or BMW as stated above.

Ill stick with HSV at least you only really lose $15000 after 2 years in most cases.

[kayman]

Someone is pulling your chain....I also have or had the self-levelling suspension in my Senator. All I did was change the shocks to Konis and pull the suspension compressor fuse. Problem solved.

so im guessing it would have lifted the car a bit if u left the fuse in? could you hook it up to a switch to raise it when u want?

[TheAnxious]

Talking to Finance personnel about offloading cars, most will advise that the best time to offload is after 3 years. In the first two years you take such a large hit - this can be exacerbated by prevailing market conditions as is the case now. After 3 years the decline continues but at a diminishing rate.

Your experience is not confined to HSV's - used BMW M5's are also in a similar situation.

The E39 M5's are now great value at around 80K! They're an awesome example of a European supercar.

[[Mitch]]

Does anyone know if it would be possible to purchase a set of the 20" wheels off the GTS from HSV?

[Ghosn]

;704046']Does anyone know if it would be possible to purchase a set of the 20" wheels off the GTS from HSV?

Are u planning to put them on another VE or previous model?

[Vulture]

;704046']Does anyone know if it would be possible to purchase a set of the 20" wheels off the GTS from HSV?

I doubt HSV will sell them directly to anyone other than owners wanting a replacement for smash repair etc. No doubt they will become available on the 2nd hand market soon enough as people upgrade to 21" - the wheel arches look like they could take yet more.

[Wezza]

Another bitch session. I guess you guys who love the new "V" are pretty pissed off with me bagging it & the guys who hate what it looks like, may want to read more?

The pictures of the 3 "E - V's" outside HSV HQ are pretty crap. I'm not tempted at all to go out & waste my money on one! They look even more shit out in the open & the brake lights, well i explained in my other post. The options for the interiors, some look like very cheap plastic add-ons!

Sorry HSV, you've stuffed up again... I still reckon the VX series was the best looking as it looks very aggressive & demanding on the road. The whole "V" series just does it for me.

To the people who love what it likes like, thats great & i don't wanna get on your darkside, but we all have opinions on things.

I think my bitch is over... This hopefully will be it.

Justin
Well you can't please everybody i suppose. But bitching and bitching ain't gonna get you an apology from HSV. :lmao:

There is a simple solution to all of this though, don't buy one! ;)

[[Mitch]]

Are u planning to put them on another VE or previous model?

Got a VZ Clubby with a set of 20x8.5" at the moment. Only thing is i'd need four 20x8" rims and have to put the 225's off my other rims on them. Assuming the 20x9.5" with 275's would be too wide for the rear. Guess i'll just have to wait and see if anything comes up for sale (but i highly doubt it).

[kompiler]

Ill stick with HSV at least you only really lose $15000 after 2 years in most cases.

If I knew I was only going to lose $15k on my '05 VZ clubby, i'd be signing on the dotted line tomorrow for a VE.

[Carby]

After having some total tool cross over to the wrong side of the road 5 weeks ago and writeoff the front of my 12 month and 3 week old R8:vpo: , I for one can't wait to get my hands on the new GTS that I've had on order now for the last 3 weeks!

The collection of cars I've borrowed over the last few weeks only highlights why HSV's are so much more than just cars, they're a lifestyle choice we make because we can. Pity the poor buggers that aspire to a new Hyundai or Toyota because they've never known better.

It was a long wait until HSV released the spec's yesterday and I can't wait to see it in the metal at the end of next week for a test drive before taking delivery soon after.

Sorry to hear about the R8 - was it a write off or are you trading it?

I think we would all be interested in your ride when you get it - You'll have to give us the ducks guts on the Magnetic Ride Control suspension.:thumbsup:

By the way did you oder it sight unseen, given that it was three weeks ago?

[Ghosn]

;704058']Got a VZ Clubby with a set of 20x8.5" at the moment. Only thing is i'd need four 20x8" rims and have to put the 225's off my other rims on them. Assuming the 20x9.5" with 275's would be too wide for the rear. Guess i'll just have to wait and see if anything comes up for sale (but i highly doubt it).

Your outa luck then. The VE wheels are not interchangable with previous models. The VE have a different stud pattern configuration.

[Carby650]

;704058']Got a VZ Clubby with a set of 20x8.5" at the moment. Only thing is i'd need four 20x8" rims and have to put the 225's off my other rims on them. Assuming the 20x9.5" with 275's would be too wide for the rear. Guess i'll just have to wait and see if anything comes up for sale (but i highly doubt it).

Bad luck Mitch but the stud pattern is different on the VE.

[[Mitch]]

Well there ya go, just learnt something new lol

[madone]

Sorry to hear about the R8 - was it a write off or are you trading it?

I think we would all be interested in your ride when you get it - You'll have to give us the ducks guts on the Magnetic Ride Control suspension.:thumbsup:

By the way did you oder it sight unseen, given that it was three weeks ago?

The R8 was a write off, guess it's one way to avoid any massive depreciation on a 2005 car.

I ordered the GTS without seeing it; I just put a holding deposit on it until I knew what I was getting although I had started to sway towards a Calais V because of the wait. So unless the GTS is a BIG disappointment to drive, and I can't see it not being at least as good as the R8 with the 6 speed auto and MRC, I should have one of the 1st on the road. Then I'll have just have to avoid wankers who want to drive on the wrong side of the road at speed so that I can enjoy it for longer than the last one!

[BadMac]

Bad luck Mitch but the stud pattern is different on the VE.

I thought it was the same, its just that the VE has thicker studs. Standard Commodore mags can be fitted by machining out the holes (hence the pics around of VE Omegas with aftermarket mags).

Heres a VL which has the new SS mags fitted.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/vl with ss mags 2.bmp
I don't think its a chop.

[Vulture]

I don't think its a chop.

I think it's a chop. Could be wrong, though.

[SCiFiRE]

i dont see the black centrecaps...

[FunkyPig]

Perhaps the actual stud pattern is the same, but rather the rolling diameter only thats changed for VE? ie. you can put VE wheels on an eariler Commodore as long as you change the tyre size. This would explain why a 19" wheel on a VE looks like a 18" on a VZ, etc.

[BearSS]

VE wheel studs are thicker too.
Apparently wheels are not interchangeable but all photo's of prototype VE's have earlier model wheels fitted.:hmmm:

[V8BRUTE]

This has been discussed elsewhere on here but the consensus is that Holden have increased the stud size to M14 to cope with the extra loading applied by the larger wheels the VE has now ;)

That VL looks ridiculous, I am betting its a chop as I can't see how the wheels would even turn inside the small arches they have :confused:

[Fnomna]

Wasn't carpoint.com.au supposed to have drive impressions up today? I just had a quick look and couldn't see anything.
Clubsport R8
http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/1988582.aspx
Specs, but nothing about how it actually drives.

[Nutter]

This has been discussed elsewhere on here but the consensus is that Holden have increased the stud size to M14 to cope with the extra loading applied by the larger wheels the VE has now ;)

That VL looks ridiculous, I am betting its a chop as I can't see how the wheels would even turn inside the small arches they have :confused:

There was a VL in street machine couple of years back with 22's....also used to work on one running a 285 rear.....mini tubs etc.

[kayman]

there are actually 5 or 6 photos of that Vl from different angles, so unless someone chopped em all its real!

[hsvprez]

Genesis blue gone off the configurator now on the R8 ??

Does anyone have any idea on delivery times / availability on the R8?? Looking to order one with sunroof option. Only one HSV dealer in ACt and I'll give them a miss - never ever close on price!

I just want (another) one.

[F6Mauz]

Just bought the latest wheels mag.

The real weight of the cars are:
...............man.......auto
Club R8...1812kg 1829kg
GTS........1829kg 1845kg
Senator...............1844kg

The GTS looks bloody tough from those pics.

[Ghosn]

Just bought the latest wheels mag.

The real weight of the cars are:
...............man.......auto
Club R8...1812kg 1829kg
GTS........1829kg 1845kg
Senator...............1844kg

The GTS looks bloody tough from those pics.

well scan them ffs!!! hehe

[F6Mauz]

well scan them ffs!!! hehe

Okies...here ya go.
Trusty camera phone.


WHEELS MAGAZINE
http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/CSVLS1/Image005%20small.jpg

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/CSVLS1/Image007%20small.jpg

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/CSVLS1/Image012%20small.jpg

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/CSVLS1/Image014%20small.jpg

[VX11SS]

No depreciation on a 2004 Porsche? I do find that hard to believe... On a 911 Turbo you would have lost well more than 30K in 2 years... The percentage may not be the same but the value is.


Read my posts re new cars, bought this 2nd hand, Imported direct from UK with better spec than NZ model and as I have notsold it I havent lost a dollar yet

I think most people are missing the point here. I expect to take a hit on the Porsche but you dont expect any different on this level of car however the Holdens/HSV are aimed at a different market . Aspirational people who have worked hard, saved hard to get these vehicles and who for most throwing a way 30-50 k over 2-3 years is a hell of a lot of money and to see what appears to be delibarate undermining of their 2nd hand values.
Who said anything about investments? Im talking about the fact that you are now being screwed and that Holden etc for all your loyalty to them appear happy to see you loose over 60 percent of the value of your vehicle in 2-3 years.
HSVs where renowned for a retained value of over 63% on a car at 3 years old until very recently, what happened ( and no its not about petrol) try too many mickey mouse power, styling upgrades over too short a time, too many runout sales every august. (how would you feel as an ordinary bloke if you bought a clubbie in say June at close to list and than 2 months later see the same car with 20k off list, this isnt an IPOD or fridge, this is usually your 2nd biggest investment) That doesnt inspire loyalalty to me it says they dont give a flying f@@@ and think we are all mugs and by some of the comments here we must be.

[OPPYLOCK]

Just bought the latest wheels mag.

The real weight of the cars are:
...............man.......auto
Club R8...1812kg 1829kg
GTS........1829kg 1845kg
Senator...............1844kg

The GTS looks bloody tough from those pics.

Wow their really porkers now! Thats up with GT Falcon.
I'm thinking wheels, brakes and bodykit would have added a little extra weight but thats quite an increase over the Holdens.
Any ideas on where the rest of the fat lives?

[RICHO]

What are the quote weights for the SSV.....

I read somewhere (probably FF to be honest) that weights originally quoted in the media were dry weights may have something to do with the difference..Of course, could be utter rubbish too....

I did notice though that no weights are quoted on HSV's website...would be interesting to see the difference between the two.

That said...an Auto GT is about 1890kgs the GTP even heavier, so there is still a decent power to weight advantage for HSV. The only lighter car in the FPV stable would be the F6 which from memory comes in at just over 1800kg.

[Freaky]

That said...an Auto GT is about 1890kgs the GTP even heavier, so there is still a decent power to weight advantage for HSV. The only lighter car in the FPV stable would be the F6 which from memory comes in at just over 1800kg.

yeah, it seems the F6 is the lightest of the lot now between HSV/FPV at 1805kg.

[Merlin]

That said...an Auto GT is about 1890kgs the GTP even heavier, so there is still a decent power to weight advantage for HSV. The only lighter car in the FPV stable would be the F6 which from memory comes in at just over 1800kg.

Manual GT is 1855kg and Auto GT is 1865kg.
Manual F6 is 1805kg and Auto F6 is 1815kg

[Carby650]

CSV LS1 what is the overall feedback from Wheels on the car?

[XLR8 V8]

Had a flip through the new Wheels mag at work this morning ... the front shot photo of the GTS having it's bonnet polished looks like 2 members of a V8-Supercar team polishing up the racecar .... will look very tough closing in in the rear vision mirror

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/CSVLS1/Image014%20small.jpg

[Carby650]

Had a flip through the new Wheels mag at work this morning ... the front shot photo of the GTS having it's bonnet polished looks very V8-Supercar-ish


very much agree. :dance:

[Crusty]

Certainly won't be mistaken for something else as it comes up from behind, now I just gotta wait till I see one in the flesh, only seen VE's at a showroom so far. I'm waiting for them to change the executive's cars over as they usually get Calais or Stato's so I can check them out, it's handy being mates with the fleet manager :driving:

[myles]

The write up is very good. Still reading through the rest of the articles but the pictures are slick. The article mentions the other cars that have received magnetic ride control and that the HSV is the fifth (after the Ferrari, Audi TT, Corvette, Cadillac Seville).

They speak about the cost in tuning the new suspension, cost to HSV many millions and that tuning MRC is hundreds of times more expensive than spring and damper tuning. The article reports chassis tuning for the VE has cost more than the VT to VZ models combined.

The Senator is initially tuned for luxury, but can be switched to the firmer performance mode.

The GTS default mode is performance, but can be switched to 'hardcore' track mode.

The article also reports with wider rear rubber allowing for aggressive launch revs, GTS E-series mules saw consistent sub 5 second 0-100 times (hints at high 12 second for the quarter).

Cars are speed limited to 250 km.

The article also believes a limited run of 7 litre 375kw will be seen
late next year.

------------------
First impressions
------------------

MRC makes the steering feel more alive and is obvious on coarse bitumen...

"The E-series feels like it's got mid-range urge similar to that of the turbocharged FPV Typhoon."

"The engine feels stronger than the claimed gains of 10kw and 20Nm."

[jason phillips]

I have not seen that any one else has pickedup on the fact that HSV has only risen the power by 2kw over the Z series.

You may say that the Z was 297 and the E is 307, but the 307 is DIN. DIN for the Z series is 305kw. It is all a load of wank about working the tune exhaust etc. The headers should have given more than 2 KW.

What are your thoughts on this. If you don't belive me I can post the info out of my book or just look at the engine specs of the maloo on HSV.com.au

[XLR8 V8]

I have not seen that any one else has pickedup on the fact that HSV has only risen the power by 2kw over the Z series.

You may say that the Z was 297 and the E is 307, but the 307 is DIN. DIN for the Z series is 305kw. It is all a load of wank about working the tune exhaust etc. The headers should have given more than 2 KW.

What are your thoughts on this. If you don't belive me I can post the info out of my book or just look at the engine specs of the maloo on HSV.com.au


You mustn't have looked very hard then, because it's been one of the main topics of discussion in these threads since the launch.

And the power figure doesn't matter for squat when you now have a HSV that accelrates from 0-100 in less than 5 secs

[korrupt]

Did you notice they were driving the white Clubby that was seen in that early Drive clip. Interesting side by side pic of the VZ Clubby and VE Senator, with a nice little write-up about the differences. Was a little confused with the big picture of the VZ interior on page 50. Why was that there??

[SV8.YOU]

Any chance that this could be the next Clubsport with Turbo?

http://img.drive.com.au/drive_images/Editorial/2006/08/21/21Torana2M_m.jpg

Just a thought.

Drive was qouted saying that Grange and Clubsport are resting, so from this i reckon Clubsport will have the turbo V6 and i'm guessing they will call it R6 :dance:

[Vulture]

... the power figure doesn't matter for squat when you now have a HSV that accelrates from 0-100 in less than 5 secs

It will be interesting to see what RWKW figures the forum sponsors get as I have a feeling that it will be more than expected.

[JohnS]

I think most people are missing the point here. I expect to take a hit on the Porsche but you dont expect any different on this level of car however the Holdens/HSV are aimed at a different market . Aspirational people who have worked hard, saved hard to get these vehicles and who for most throwing a way 30-50 k over 2-3 years is a hell of a lot of money and to see what appears to be delibarate undermining of their 2nd hand values.

I see people who buy HSVs are "Aspirational"?

Mate may be some of them are people who have owned Porsches and alike and are sick of being fleeced. You may have bought your Porsche cheaply, well done but that is not an option for many buyers.

What you are accussing HSV of was mastered by Porsche a decade ago... get over it.

The real reason for high depreciation rates is the healthy state of the economy... people want and can afford to buy new cars... simple.

[Vulture]

The real reason for high depreciation rates is the healthy state of the economy... people want and can afford to buy new cars... simple.

I think might be one of the most sensible comments yet made about poor resale.

[Exithouse]

Has anyone here driven a SSV and a VE Clubsport yet? I’d be really interested in hearing someone’s thoughts after doing so. We have to wait until November in NZ until we can get that opportunity – in fact the SSV hasn’t even been released over here yet.

[HSVMAN]

Drive was qouted saying that Grange and Clubsport are resting, so from this i reckon Clubsport will have the turbo V6 and i'm guessing they will call it R6 :dance:

I dont think that will be the case but I hope you are right. If we had a TT6 in a body the size of Torana it would'nt matter if it were as fast or quicker than the V8s as it would have it's own market and easily outstrip the F6 (the alloytec is only in it's infancy) Maybe they are thinking about it...

[OzMystic]

Drive was qouted saying that Grange and Clubsport are resting, so from this i reckon Clubsport will have the turbo V6 and i'm guessing they will call it R6 :dance:

Only resting because they haven't decided on final specs as yet: -


“We will be doing a Grange, but we’re not quite ready to release it at this stage,” HSV managing director Phil Harding confirmed. “We’re still working out the final specifications.”

With Holden ready to roll out its WM Statesman and Caprice models next week, HSV is taking the opportunity to provide its dealers with enough clear air to move existing stock and generate traffic for its volume-selling short-wheelbase models.
However, it has promised to set new benchmarks above and beyond the E-Series sedans with its next vintage of Grange.
“It will pick up the technology (introduced in the GTS and Senator), but will have some goodies that set it apart,” Mr. Harding said

“We’re going for technology rather than lipstick with that car.”

A show special Grange is currently being prepared at HSV’s styling studio and will take centre stage at the Australian International Motor Show in Sydney in October with production scheduled to commence later this year for an early 2007 introduction.

There is also the likelihood of the base Clubsport name returning with a value-driven model that drops some of the fruity features.
“Never say never … but we have rested the nameplate at the moment,” HSV marketing manager Andrew McKenzie said. “Maybe there is room for the ClubSport to return to its heritage of bang-for-your-buck performance. We’ll just wait and see what happens.”

[THEHSVSALESMAN]

The real reason for high depreciation rates is the healthy state of the economy... people want and can afford to buy new cars... simple.

EXACTLY.... well said.

Now if you can please explain to the rest of Australia that it does not matter what make of car it is at the moment, they all have bad re-sale because there is a flood of used cars.

For example if you wanted to buy a 2nd hand, 2004 auto Corolla at the moment, on carsales.com, there is 309 cars Oz wide that you can choose from, there is 89 in NSW alone.

Look on redbook.com at a 02/04 Audi A4 3 litre with 20,000kms, it was 83k plus ORC now its worth 43k, and this one had another 8-10k worth of extra gear on it.

I agree that re-sale is bad on HSV at the moment and they are going to rectify that by building less cars for the Australian market, but if dealers did not give the cars away, then wholesalers would pay more for the car 2nd hand... build value in the car, because they are great cars.

[OnItsBalls]

tough as very neatr

the hsv lineup looks a little scarse

[ShanghaiVZ]

Now if this has been said then shoot me! I'm not shifting thru 16 pages, owners of the E series HSV will be grinning from ear to ear other than just the beauty of their new ride BUT their wheels will NOT FIT on pre VE commys :D how good is that! now you won't see a VY Exec driving around on 19" E series Clubby rims or the 20" GTS wheels. Goes for all VE wheels the VE stud pattern is different.

[fyreblade2000]

Hi guys,

Has any one seen this website?

http://www.cgiautomotive.com/#hol

[Holden Man]

Hi guys,

Has any one seen this website?

http://www.cgiautomotive.com/#hol

Nice find fyreblade2000

They look like the Drive pics from a while ago. Not sure about the look of the HSV's on there though.

[RICHO]

Coupla pretty dodgy photshops there with the utes.....

A certainly hope Holden have a more cohesive design for the rear than that...

[korrupt]

Now if this has been said then shoot me! I'm not shifting thru 16 pages, owners of the E series HSV will be grinning from ear to ear other than just the beauty of their new ride BUT their wheels will NOT FIT on pre VE commys :D how good is that! now you won't see a VY Exec driving around on 19" E series Clubby rims or the 20" GTS wheels. Goes for all VE wheels the VE stud pattern is different.

Check the other VE threads. There are pics of a VL with VE SS-V 19" rims on it already. Might be a photochop though...

[vyssbeast]

definatly photoshop ... walkinshaw wrote a post about them not fitting any comos prior to the ve so i'd be very surprised if it wasnt photoshop

[Fnomna]

Apparently the hubs were machined to make them fit onto the VL:
http://www.####################/showthread.php?t=84656

All 4 pics here:
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showpost.php?p=720197&postcount=584

[BLACK expreSS-V]

This has been discussed elsewhere on here but the consensus is that Holden have increased the stud size to M14 to cope with the extra loading applied by the larger wheels the VE has now ;)

That VL looks ridiculous, I am betting its a chop as I can't see how the wheels would even turn inside the small arches they have :confused:

I think you will find the real reason is to stop buyers recycling their investment in their old wheels and be tempted to simply upgrade to the HSVi range...

[CLUB_819]

My best mate works for a holden parts seller and he just sold a set of SS-V rims to a guy with a VL who said he has machined a new stud pattern or something so they'll fit. (The guy works for holden). Better hope he heat treats his steel.

That GTS looks tough as nails, that red interior reminds me of a farrari.

Cheers
Scotty

[jaykay]

Goes for all VE wheels the VE stud pattern is different.

The stud pattern is the same but the holes in the rims are larger diameter to take M16 studs on the new VE's.....

[Ghosn]

Note: Comments are based on exterior only and of pictures.

Just got myself a copy of the wheels mag and I must say, the more I look at the GTS in Red, the more it becomes my color choice. Originally, I had been leaning towards the darker colors but it would go against the type of person I am. I like my cars to be loud(colorwise) and have a "look at me" attitude. I don't think I would get that in a darker color although those colors still look awesome.

The original idea of having a dark car was to hide some of the deficiencies I first saw in the design. But to be honest, those deficiences are rapidly growing on me(in a good way). I actually like the black strip across the nose now. I was always impressed with the frontal design of the car and I find the red color accentuates it further whereas I can only see the darker colors hiding the smooth lines and curves. My biggest downfall was and still is the rear as it doesnt have any real aggression to it. The rear lights have also grown on me but I would need to see the rear without a wing for me to pass better judgement.

The side vents I like but the red GTS badge on the black background could have been done better, maybe just a GTS badge on its own. I think they have put the black background behind it so u can read the red colored letters on a red car? I dunno.

The wheels and brakes I don't have a single complaint about, wheels look awesome, as do brakes. Thank the lord we finally have some decent sized rubber pushing the car along.

Looking forward to seeing and driving one in the flesh. Most of all, owning one.

[geary]

Hi guys,

Has any one seen this website?

http://www.cgiautomotive.com/#hol


Wow. Some awesome ideas on that page. I particularly like the 'concept VE' - was a Torana originally, it seems, looks very VE. Wagons are cool also. I like this: http://www.cgiautomotive.com/cars/gm-opelomega.htm

Sorry for getting off-topic, and here are my thoughts. IMO, the GTS, with the black grill-top and extended part to the side vent looks absolutely average. The senator, as well, with the 'matt black' finish looks completely terrible, esp. when Calais V looks so good with the subtle style. Calais V anyday, HSV.

[vyssbeast]

as mentioned previously that plastic strip around the senator is optional
keep your pants on mate!!

and also
tuna just dynoed a VESS and it scored 230rwkw which is 15% drivetrain loss.
this would explain the Eseries hsv being faster despite being heavier. (suspension and other things contribute obviously)

just thought i'd mention that as we were speculating but now that one has been put on a dyno then it is kinda proven