WHAT IS VZ 297KW/530NM in DIN?

[Pickles]

Yes, I was wondering what the REAL difference in DIN figures is, so can anyone explain how to convert the VZ figures to DIN, & how you do it. From what I've read on the forum so far, it appears that there mightn't be any power increase with VE, as they are using 98 octane rather than 95 octane for their figures. But torque has obviously gone up. Any answers please?
Cheers, Pickles.

[SLE355]

297 x 1.0139 = 301.12, not sure about torque.

[vyssbeast]

apparently according to hsv 297 is 305 (DIN) ... so 2kw (DIN) increase
but like you said the 305 is on 95octane?? and the 307 is 98
not sure how correct this is but thats what ive read

[Smitty]

DIN is VZ...afaik

long time ago...Holden (then GMH) used SAE
corrected horspower numbers :deal:
and
ppl like HDT used 'real' output numbers
for advertising...but uncorrected
hence 196kw VK Commodores :weirdo:

can't do that these days....unfair advertising
rules and all that


Car makers generally use the DIN standard to 'correct' dyno figures but also for reference can I suggest anyone
interested looks up- DIN 70020, SAE J 1349, JIS D 1001 and ISO 1585.
but in summary....
Measurements of power and torque are usually made to one of three standards: SAE J1349, 80/1269/EEC or DIN 70020.
The SAE and EEC standards specify operating conditions of 99 kPa / 29.23 InHg of dry air and 25 °C / 77 F temperature. The DIN and Japanese JIS D 1001 standard are calculated at higher air pressure (101.3 kPa / 29.33 InHg of dry air) and lower temperature (20 °C / 68 F), resulting in increased power.
DIN 70020 does not specify the status of accessories such as the engine fan and water pump, resulting in a slight increase in measured power. Latest revisions to J1349 add accessories such as power steering pumps not specified by 80/1269/EEC, but required for normal vehicle operation, resulting in reductions in net power.



hth

cheers

[andrewdisco]

i thought the reason they called it 297 was because it was 300 in ford terms (din) and they were just taking the piss ?

[BadMac]

DIN Horsepower
This is a standard, DIN 70020, for measuring horsepower that very closely matches SAE net. The conditions of the test vary slightly, but the required equipment on the engine and the point of measurement (flywheel) remains the same. Because the test conditions are so similar, it is safe to divide DIN horsepower by 1.0139 to arrive at SAE net. This value is so close to equal that for all but the most technical purposes DIN and SAE net are interchangeable.

Therefore 297KW (SAE) = 301KW (DIN). Note the result is the same if you convert KW to HP then scale and convert back.

End result either HSV have made a typo and meant SAE KW's or they found 6 more by changing the extractors and exhaust.


All you ever wanted to know about this topic and were too afraid to ask can be found here.
http://www.answers.com/topic/horsepower

And a shorter more relevant explanation here:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/horsepwr.html

[FPV GTHO]

Therefore 297KW (SAE) = 301KW (DIN). Note the result is the same if you convert KW to HP then scale and convert back.

End result either HSV have made a typo and meant SAE KW's or they found 6 more by changing the extractors and exhaust.


All you ever wanted to know about this topic and were too afraid to ask can be found here.
http://www.answers.com/topic/horsepower

And a shorter more relevant explanation here:
http://neptune.spacebears.com/opine/horsepwr.html


That doesnt explain how/why HSV claimed 305kw DIN for the Z series. Does that indicate the standard LS2 is more than 297kw?

[McobraR]

im pretty sure HSV states 297 ECE not SAE. as the reason why its 305kw DIN.
As a side note, In an article in the paper once, they compared the measurements between the ford and holden and what struck me was the phoons power rating, the converted it to ECE (HSVs form of measurement) and it was about 265kw and 535nm. So basically, the new VE HSV's has more torque now.

[BadMac]

SAE-certified horsepower
In 2005, the Society of Automotive Engineers introduced a new test procedure (J2723) for engine horsepower and torque. The procedure eliminates some of the areas of flexibility in power measurement, and requires an independent observer present when engines are measured. The test is voluntary, but engines completing it can be advertised as "SAE-certified".

Many manufacturers began switching to the new rating immediately, often with surprising results. The rated output of Cadillac's supercharger Northstar V8 jumped from 440 hp (328 kW) to 469 hp (350 kW) under the new tests, while the rating for Toyota's Camry 3.0 L 1MZ-FE V6 fell from 210 hp (157 kW) to 190 hp (142 kW). The first engine certified under the new program was the 7.0 L LS7 used in the 2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06. Certified power rose slightly from 500 hp (373 kW) to 505 hp (377 kW).

hp (DIN)
DIN horsepower is the power measured according to the German standard DIN 70020. It is measured at the flywheel, and is in practical terms equivalent to the SAE net figure. However, be aware that DIN "horsepower" is often expressed in metric (Pferdestärke) rather than mechanical horsepower.

hp (ECE)
ECE R24 is another standard for measuring net horsepower. It is quite similar to the DIN 70020 standard, but the requirement for connecting an engine's fan during testing varies. ECE is seen as slightly more liberal than DIN, and ECE figures tend to be slightly higher than DIN. John Deere is one strong adherent to ECE testing.

The new VE Commodore is 270 ECE KW's, does anybody know what the 260KW L76 was?

Why do Holden use ECE and HSV DIN? At least now its a direct comparison with Fords.

[McobraR]

Why do Holden use ECE and HSV DIN? At least now its a direct comparison with Fords.

Since when did HSV start measuring in DIN? HSV has been measuring in ECE, thus the reason why they complained about ford/fpv using DIN.

[BadMac]

Since when did HSV start measuring in DIN? HSV has been measuring in ECE, thus the reason why they complained about ford/fpv using DIN.

From the HSV PDF.
SPECIFICATIONS
Engine 307 kW, 6.0 litre LS2 Generation 4 alloy V8
6.0L, 90 Degree OHV. Cross Flow cylinder heads. Twin knock control sensors. On-board diagnostics
Central Plenum with individual symmetrical runners
High energy distributorless ignition. Solid state direct fire ignition, coil near plug with integrated igniter
Capacity (cc) 5967
Compression Ratio (:1) 10.9
Power (DIN kW) 307kW* @ 6000rpm
Torque (DIN Nm) 550Nm* @ 4400rpm
Exhaust system Stainless steel, high performance quad outlet
Gear ratios 6-speed Manual / 6-speed Automatic

[EfiJy]

i checkd out the maloo ls2 on hsvs site. it still says 297kw, 305kw din. considering hsv installed extractores and sprots system on ve youd thnk its got more grutn.

[McobraR]

anyone know when hsv started using the din measurement? i know a few years ago they were using ECE

[Redhot_57]

Thats a good point actually, although torque is up 20nm i would have expected a tad more power, given completely new dual exhaust. Looks like
maybe HSV has caved and adopted to Ford approved method of hp measurement

Still, im not complaining...

[McobraR]

Thats a good point actually, although torque is up 20nm i would have expected a tad more power, given completely new dual exhaust. Looks like
maybe HSV has caved and adopted to Ford approved method of hp measurement

Still, im not complaining...

in reality, the 20nm leap in torque is really only about 5nm, like i stated before, an article compared the DIN with the ECE, and when they converted the typhoons 270/550 power rating to ece, it was about 265/535.
So to answer the threads name, 297/530 in DIN would be about 305/545 ECE

[vyssbeast]

is anyone forgetting that hsv changed to 4-2-1 extractors instead of the 4-1
hence they would have improved mid range more than top end hence only a slight peak in max output but a dyno graph would prove midrange gains.
and instead of loosing topend by doing this, i would assume the exhaust/tune has insured this doesnt happen

[dean]

Thats a good point actually, although torque is up 20nm i would have expected a tad more power, given completely new dual exhaust. Looks like
maybe HSV has caved and adopted to Ford approved method of hp measurement

Still, im not complaining...

Marketing? Interesting they have gone back to the 3.7 diff ratio for manuals

[Alister]

If anyone's interested, HSV were using SAE for the Y (VY) series. They made 285kw therfore 292kw DIN.