VE SS v XR8 v XR6T in SMH Drive

[NickS]

There is a good read in SMH Drive this morning, test between the SS, XR8 & the XR6T.

In short the SS creams them, they expected it to struggle on the outback roads (because of the 19" tyres) so they took 2 spares, instead they said it handle the conditions far better then either Falcon and the spares stayed in the boot untouched. The XR8 finished the test on the back of a truck and the SS came out the clear winner.

They reinstated the opinion that the XR6T is the better of the 2 Fords, which I doubt anyone would argue. Can't find it on line yet but it's worth a read if you get the chance.

[Veeate]

Sounds interesting. Out to get the SMH now.....

[Danv8]

Woohoo go the VE SS.
:bravo:

[SV805]

Havn't worked out how to post link but if you go to www.smh.com.au and then put in the search button "ss commodore" the article will come up. Good read with the XR8 finishing on the back of the truck and the XR6T in limping home. All in all they are very impressed with the ss and ss-v and is a clear winner in this article.

Edit: Hey I think I have placed a link above. It is under the heading Good Sports.

[PepeLePew]

Im not sure creaming is an appropriate term.....

My summary says the VE steers better, goes well, and has a few niggles.

The two Fords steering kinda sucks, their ride height is too low for outback roads (check out the 100mm higher clearance of the SS, Im sure that'll be fixed when owners get their hands on the suckers), and the interior has niggles. Plastic trans pan on XR8 is cheap...but doesnt mention what the trans pan is made of on the other two cars for our interest. Both Fords were victims of their ride height...

A nice article but a wee bit lacking in substance and cant get the XR6T's torque number correct either....

Still, a win in the value stakes to the new SS no matter which side of the pancake you look at!

[NickS]

Thanks SV805 ...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/good-sports/2006/09/07/1157222256845.html


Im not sure creaming is an appropriate term.....
Whatever ... a clear winner without question is a creaming in my book.

[VT LS1]

Gee, the VE must be alot higher than it looks, 100mm higher than the falcon, that puts it up there with a Patrol. :lol:

[Carby650]

a bit ot but I think the drive article is due today aswell. Last week they tested the base models but said that the sports models would be done this week. looking forward to that one.

[Aus8]

We would hope it would win being 4 years newer. No surprises here.

Aus8

[Brass Munky]

Interesting article that, ive been waiting for that comparison

[NickS]

a bit ot but I think the drive article is due today aswell. Last week they tested the base models but said that the sports models would be done this week. looking forward to that one.
:confused: Isn't that what we are talking about ???


We would hope it would win being 4 years newer. No surprises here.

Aus8
True ... but it's nice to see they have done it right and not screwed it up (anyone remember the $1b AU ???)

[Freaky]

why cant they test on normal roads instead of unsealed roads out the back of bourke.

they even mention these are roads are unlikely to be encounted by most drivers.

congrats to the SS though

[8throttlebodies]

Gee, the VE must be alot higher than it looks, 100mm higher than the falcon, that puts it up there with a Patrol. :lol:

The same thing came straight to my mind :rofl:

8tb

[davidred]

Good article overall - couldn't help but chuckle at this line though;


important switches such as the hazard light button are obscured by the steering wheel.

I guess having ready access to the hazard lights on the Fords is important after all :lol:

[Carby650]

:confused: Isn't that what we are talking about ???




Yep my bad. :doh:
Realised it when I started to read.

[Trek52]

Did anyone expect the Fords to win !!! Seriously, a new car with a billion $ development against a 4-5 year old design !!! Come on.

I am neither a ford or holden man, just a car man so I really dont think this is a victory worth shouting about.

[VT LS1]

I guess having ready access to the hazard lights on the Fords is important after all :lol:[/QUOTE]




Although, it has been my experience that when you are looking to activate the hazard light button, you are probably not using the steering wheel....
Same goes for boot / bonnet / fuel cap release and the wheel brace for that matter.

[BadMac]

We would hope it would win being 4 years newer. No surprises here.

Aus8


Why do people keep saying that. The BF is not 4 years old. The BF is not the BA. Ford did extensive work and focus groups where they decided only minor parts of the BF architecture needed updating. They had the chance to do extensive changes. Whenever Ford wins a review its because they engineered it the best. When they lose oh its an old architecture. I thought people like JEM had already proven that the BF was engineered as well or better than VE in many areas. Oh well guess the reviewers were biased as well, or maybe Holden paid for that result.

Why can't people just appreciate it for what it is. 3 very well built aussies cars and right now the the VE has its nose in front due to the overall package. It will help Orion be a better car.

[NickS]

Did anyone expect the Fords to win !!! Seriously, a new car with a billion $ development against a 4-5 year old design !!! Come on.

I am neither a ford or holden man, just a car man so I really dont think this is a victory worth shouting about.
Kinda why I raised the AU ... car makers sometimes get it wrong, sometimes get it VERY VERY wrong.

It's just nice to read that Holden got it right, they have produced a car that has the journalists comparing ride & handling with the likes of BMW 5 series. OK, so the Falcon is now several years old and you would certainly expect the SS to win, doesn't mean we can't be excited / interested about it when it does.

This is a forum for Holden / HSV ENTHUSIESTS remember ...

[ADSXR8]

There is a good read in SMH Drive this morning, test between the SS, XR8 & the XR6T.

In short the SS creams them, they expected it to struggle on the outback roads (because of the 19" tyres) so they took 2 spares, instead they said it handle the conditions far better then either Falcon and the spares stayed in the boot untouched. The XR8 finished the test on the back of a truck and the SS came out the clear winner.

They reinstated the opinion that the XR6T is the better of the 2 Fords, which I doubt anyone would argue. Can't find it on line yet but it's worth a read if you get the chance.


I think this is very much a case on how desperate you Holden blokes are for a win, and a win at any cost.

As quoted directly from the article, this is what happened to the XR8

"On the third day, just 12km west of Wanaaring, a small town about 200km west of Bourke, the XR8's plastic transmission cover was sliced open by a sharp rock as it scraped its belly briefly on a section of rubble that had built up in the middle of the road. Despite driving slowly at the time (moments earlier we were overtaken by a retired couple in a Peugeot 307 wagon that was towing a small box trailer), the XR8 found the stone too high and too sharp."

Then this happened to the XR6T

"Nevertheless, nothing could stifle our enjoyment behind the wheel of the XR6 Turbo and our amazement that Australians could create such a brilliant engine ... which is why we were disappointed when, at the end of day two, the XR6 Turbo came to a halt after hitting a large chunk of clay"

Umm, sounds like a case that these clowns from drive.com.au, cannot drive. The idea is not to run over objects like this. Instead of cleaning both of these up in the Fords.

Heaven forbid what the result would have been if they hit either of these things in the Commodore and the same damage took place, oh, the Commodore would have won if it wasn't damaged. Its a clear win by default, and I certainly would not be boasting about that.


I am neither a ford or holden man, just a car man so I really dont think this is a victory worth shouting about.

Could not agree anymore.

[Aus8]

Why do people keep saying that. The BF is not 4 years old. The BF is not the BA. Ford did extensive work and focus groups where they decided only minor parts of the BF architecture needed updating. They had the chance to do extensive changes. Whenever Ford wins a review its because they engineered it the best. When they lose oh its an old architecture. I thought people like JEM had already proven that the BF was engineered as well or better than VE in many areas. Oh well guess the reviewers were biased as well, or maybe Holden paid for that result.

Why can't people just appreciate it for what it is. 3 very well built aussies cars and right now the the VE has its nose in front due to the overall package. It will help Orion be a better car.
I do appreciate its a good car. BF is simply a minor upgrade on BA so is essentially 4 years old and our VE is a new design so I aint surprised being 4 years newer that its winning reviews.

Aus8

[Carby650]

As NickS said above. AU is a classic example of a new platform being sooo wrong. I would be keen to see a comparision with say a Calais V (V8) and some of the sports models from Europe like the 5 series and Audi. Yes they are more expensice and you would expect them to win but it would be good to see what sort of run the Ve gives them on a $ for $ basis.

[Aus8]

I think this is very much a case on how desperate you Holden blokes are for a win, and a win at any cost.

As quoted directly from the article, this is what happened to the XR8

"On the third day, just 12km west of Wanaaring, a small town about 200km west of Bourke, the XR8's plastic transmission cover was sliced open by a sharp rock as it scraped its belly briefly on a section of rubble that had built up in the middle of the road. Despite driving slowly at the time (moments earlier we were overtaken by a retired couple in a Peugeot 307 wagon that was towing a small box trailer), the XR8 found the stone too high and too sharp."

Then this happened to the XR6T

"Nevertheless, nothing could stifle our enjoyment behind the wheel of the XR6 Turbo and our amazement that Australians could create such a brilliant engine ... which is why we were disappointed when, at the end of day two, the XR6 Turbo came to a halt after hitting a large chunk of clay"

Umm, sounds like a case that these clowns from drive.com.au, cannot drive. The idea is not to run over objects like this. Instead of cleaning both of these up in the Fords.

Heaven forbid what the result would have been if they hit either of these things in the Commodore and the same damage took place, oh, the Commodore would have won if it wasn't damaged. Its a clear win by default, and I certainly would not be boasting about that.



Could not agree anymore.

So their XR8 stopped after hitting a rock? And then their XR6T stopped after hitting some clay? These drive guys sound like idiots.

Aus8

[holdennutta]

Sounds like this is the written review behind that video that they put up that was so comprehensively torn to pieces on many forums and they then took down :p

[ADSXR8]

Kinda why I raised the AU ... car makers sometimes get it wrong, sometimes get it VERY VERY wrong....

You certainly wouldn't get an argument there.



This is a forum for Holden / HSV ENTHUSIESTS remember ....

I agree there too, but level of enthusiasm does vary though

[Carby650]

I think this is very much a case on how desperate you Holden blokes are for a win, and a win at any cost.

As quoted directly from the article, this is what happened to the XR8

"On the third day, just 12km west of Wanaaring, a small town about 200km west of Bourke, the XR8's plastic transmission cover was sliced open by a sharp rock as it scraped its belly briefly on a section of rubble that had built up in the middle of the road. Despite driving slowly at the time (moments earlier we were overtaken by a retired couple in a Peugeot 307 wagon that was towing a small box trailer), the XR8 found the stone too high and too sharp."

Then this happened to the XR6T

"Nevertheless, nothing could stifle our enjoyment behind the wheel of the XR6 Turbo and our amazement that Australians could create such a brilliant engine ... which is why we were disappointed when, at the end of day two, the XR6 Turbo came to a halt after hitting a large chunk of clay"

Umm, sounds like a case that these clowns from drive.com.au, cannot drive. The idea is not to run over objects like this. Instead of cleaning both of these up in the Fords.

Heaven forbid what the result would have been if they hit either of these things in the Commodore and the same damage took place, oh, the Commodore would have won if it wasn't damaged. Its a clear win by default, and I certainly would not be boasting about that.



Could not agree anymore.

You missed this quote "Although it didn't complete the journey, the Falcon XR8's failure to finish in no way affected the outcome of this test. After all, we'd still travelled more than 2000km along our route before the mishap."

I think you are being a tad sellective

[NickS]

I agree there too, but level of enthusiasm does vary though
It certainly does ... but just as I am more than happy to say that the XR6T and even more so the Typhoon are exceptional cars, some of the Ford guys have to accept that the VE is also.

Maybe I shouldn't have bothered putting this link up ??? I keep forgetting there is a large number of Ford fans on this site whos role is to move from thread to thread shooting down anyone that posts postive comments about Holdens on a Holden forum !!!

:confused:

I'm going to go and do something else, this is turning into a shit fight for no reason.

[JNP304]

With people on both sides of the Ford/Holden camp there will nerver be an agreed upon clear winner. So the article was not that professional but still the VE won. Lets wait to see a proper comparo on decent roads and track. I still put money on the VE. But then all these defensive Ford guys (usually Phoon owners) will come on and say how its no big deal and no surprise and Orion will be her soon blah blah blah it just goes on and on. Come on guys give Holden some credit where credit is due. Im sure if the Orion is all its cracked up to be we will be giving it its due credit. Not coming on lamely defending like one eyed supporters.

[ADSXR8]

You missed this quote "Although it didn't complete the journey, the Falcon XR8's failure to finish in no way affected the outcome of this test. After all, we'd still travelled more than 2000km along our route before the mishap."

I think you are being a tad sellective

I was going to add that quote but its certainly worthy of its own post.

If it was the Commodore that hit the rock and punctured a gearbox casing 200km west of Bourke, then came home on the back of the tilt tray, would you honestly think it would win the comparison.

Honestly, I think you are extremely naive.

[Carby]

Did anyone expect the Fords to win !!! Seriously, a new car with a billion $ development against a 4-5 year old design !!! Come on.

I am neither a ford or holden man, just a car man so I really dont think this is a victory worth shouting about.


As a matter of fact didn't the CEO of Ford say that all the VE did was catch up to the Falcon?? So he thought that the continually improved BF was a fair match.

[ADSXR8]

It certainly does ... but just as I am more than happy to say that the XR6T and even more so the Typhoon are exceptional cars, some of the Ford guys have to accept that the VE is also.

Maybe I shouldn't have bothered putting this link up ??? I keep forgetting there is a large number of Ford fans on this site whos role is to move from thread to thread shooting down anyone that posts postive comments about Holdens on a Holden forum !!!

:confused:

I'm going to go and do something else, this is turning into a shit fight for no reason.

Common NickS, its started debate and discussion, and I think that is the idea of a forum.

Me, like all Holden/Ford punters have been waiting for the VE/BF comparisons for a very very long time. And to have drive.com.au originally post a 2 minutes video stating the SS-V wins by default because of a gearbox break of the XR8, and then to back it up with this written article giving the win the the SS-V stating the result would not have changed irrespective.

The guys at drive.com.au do not have a clue, in actual fact they are lying by publishing this stuff.


It certainly does ... but just as I am more than happy to say that the XR6T and even more so the Typhoon are exceptional cars, some of the Ford guys have to accept that the VE is also.

Trust me, I do.

I have written here my last couple company vehicles where VZ Sv6's. And I was looking forward to getting a VE SV6, actually, I was excited. Then Holden fleet discounting (govt contract) on the VE was not as generious as the VZ, so I was given a new Camry instead. Just imagine my disappointment.

Although, the new Camry is nice, its no BE/BF.

[Trek52]

There is an interesting unbiased article in this months Aust Muscle Car, says the V8 VE rocks and the 6 is a heap of shit !!!

[JNP304]

The guys at drive.com.au do not have a clue, in actual fact they are lying by publishing this stuff.

Come on guys blaming the test conditions blaming the people driving blaming the journos? This article may be a little flawed with its test conditions ect.
But what ill it take for you guys to accept the VE?
Who has to write the article? Tom Gorman maybe? David Flint?
Come on shooting the VE down at every chance is not what we are here for. And we are not here either to say its the best car in the world. But what article will you accept as truth that its a better car? Or will it never happen.
Will you accept the wheels or Motor verdict when it comes out? Or are they all liers too who cant drive and are probably paid off by Holden and have a house in the Caymans provided by GMH to write biased articles?

We can all see this article is a little ambigous but dont flame every positive Holden comment. its un-australian!

[Carby]

Talk about defensive Ford guys on here! - FFS we had to put up with critiscism of one VE having a bootful of dust after a test - two Fords break down on another dirt track trek and they are still giving it to us!

Unfortunately some of you guys are in denial - don't know why, the VE is a new car and is expected to be better, I think it's time to just accept that fact.

[tuff304]

I think this article is complete :bs: !!

why the fu*k would you take performance cars and run them on an outback dirt road etc??? they are performance cars not off road vehicles, its quite obvious none of the vehicles were designed for this, it would have made more sense to test these around a race track or down the quarter mile.
Who gives a fu*k about the ground clearance of an xr6 xr8 or SS-V no one buys them for that reason and I can almost guarantee that most owners of these cars would never try and drive them over rocks etc :weirdo:

I agree with most here that the VE is better than most Fords in all aspects of features and driveablilty but this comparo was just sh*t

[ADSXR8]

Come on guys blaming the test conditions blaming the people driving blaming the journos? This article may be a little flawed with its test conditions ect.
But what ill it take for you guys to accept the VE?
Who has to write the article? Tom Gorman maybe? David Flint?
Come on shooting the VE down at every chance is not what we are here for. And we are not here either to say its the best car in the world. But what article will you accept as truth that its a better car? Or will it never happen.
Will you accept the wheels or Motor verdict when it comes out? Or are they all liers too who cant drive and are probably paid off by Holden and have a house in the Caymans provided by GMH to write biased articles?

We can all see this article is a little ambigous but dont flame every positive Holden comment. its un-australian!

Mate, you ask alot of questions.

I accept the VE, I am looking forward to the Motor/Wheels tests, and if drive.com.au did not make conflicting statements, I'd accept there decision too.

Considering you quoted my post, other than the test verdict, I have not flamed any positive Holden comment. I just cannot have seen the Holden winning if breakage fortunes where reversed.

[Carby]

I was going to add that quote but its certainly worthy of its own post.

If it was the Commodore that hit the rock and punctured a gearbox casing 200km west of Bourke, then came home on the back of the tilt tray, would you honestly think it would win the comparison.

Honestly, I think you are extremely naive.

Mate I hope you are around when they test the GTS against a Typhoon - I'd suggest start working on excuses now, because by the look of it, the SS has the measure of the Typhoon...................

[NickS]

why the fu*k would you take performance cars and run them on an outback dirt road etc??? they are performance cars not off road vehicles, its quite obvious none of the vehicles were designed for this, it would have made more sense to test these around a race track or down the quarter mile.
How many would take these cars down a dirt road ??? Probably about as many as take them down the quarter or around a race track :rolleyes:

The cars weren't driven over rocks, they were driven on roads that had rocks on them, I don't know about everyone else but I have driven every single one of my cars on a dirt road at some point.

The article stated that they didn't expect the SS to cope as it had 19" wheels, but they reckon it handled the rough conditions better than either Falcon. That is not a slur on the Falcon, it's just pointing out that Holden have done a great job with the VE chassis.

[ADSXR8]

Mate I hope you are around when they test the GTS against a Typhoon - I'd suggest start working on excuses now, because by the look of it, the SS has the measure of the Typhoon...................


Thats your opinion. If you want to carry on about that :rofl: , start another thread. Its got nothing to do with this one.

[Carby]

Thats your opinion. If you want to carry on about that :rofl: , start another thread. Its got nothing to do with this one.

Yes it does I mentioned SS Commodore - one of the combatants in this thread:lol:

[SS_Fury]

fwiw i dont think the ss has the measure of the phoon - the phoon stock is a killer, the phoon with a few simple mods is a v8 eater.

i guess the thing to take away from the comparison is that the VE actually handled better in less than impressive conditions which all 3 cars may be subjected too from time to time.

[Carby650]

I agree with the comment on this test being a bit BS. As said why test sports cars on dirt roads. In saying that they did a heap of testing on sealed country roads too. If we stick to the issues of road hadling ext raised in the article the Ve is an easy winner and it was so for the other comparision done last week.
If you want figures on performace (as we all do) the latest motor mag has printed some figures which somebody has posted in another thread which gave figures of 13.8 for the 400 with the ss and the closest Fraud was i think 14.2 for the xr6t.
Either way you could say the Holden are on a winner with the VE. Considering this is a brand new platform there are only minor issues / faults coming out with this car.
Now as I and a few others have meantioned anybody remember the AU. Holden have done a bloody great job with this car.

[PepeLePew]

Thanks SV805 ...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/news/good-sports/2006/09/07/1157222256845.html


Whatever ... a clear winner without question is a creaming in my book.

Are the pages stuck together???

Seriously....its all good. The VE is a great thing compared to outgoing VZ and deserves recognition...

Glad they've fixed that bloody steering no matter what roads its on!!!!

[NickS]

Are the pages stuck together???
:lol: ... sorry, now I get it. When I get the keys to my GTS they may well be :lmao:

[superoo]

Why on earth did this test occur on these dirt tracks? What were they trying to prove exactly? They even said they were expecting the VE to struggle due to the 19's. What next, a Nissan Patrol vs Toyota Landcruiser test at Calder Park?

In any case, I have found this in the comments sections that I didn't see in the main article (apologies if it is!):

"The best we could extract from the XR8 was an average 12 litres/100km on a day's driving at freeway speeds on sealed roads. Consumption climbed to 17.7 litres/100km as the roads became winding. The XR8's average on the trip (which was cut short after it picked up a stone and holed the plastic cover on the underbelly of the automatic transmission) was 14 litres/100km.

Its V8 rival the Commodore SS-V, meanwhile, recorded a best of 11.2 litres/100km on the open road but drank more as the roads became winding, recording up to 18.4 litres/100km. However, it averaged 13.5 litres/100km, making it more frugal than the XR8 Ford.

The big surprise, though, was the Falcon XR6 Turbo. It drank the least amount of fuel of the trio and had performance that was comparable to the SS-V.

The XR6 Turbo achieved a best result of just 10.2 litres/100km on the open road and the most it drank was 13.5 litres/100km on winding sections. Its average for the trip: 11.6 litres/100km.

So, if you want performance that won't break the bank, clearly the XR6 Turbo is the way to go. No wonder the NSW Police like them so much."


The one question I will ask regarding all these debates on road tests and who "won" is this:

How many of us are going to be swayed in terms of what we purchase based on what's written in these articles? My theory behind why people get agro when told car A is better than car B is because they are buying car B no matter what.

The beauty now is that which ever way you go, you can't really go wrong.

[Knight Phlier]

From what I read in the article most of the trip was on sealed roads, with a couple of legs on dirt roads.

I really do hope that the cost of 19 inch tyres comes down with more demand and production otherwise it will be almost as expensive to buy tyres for these cars as it will to buy petrol to fuel them !

[muzza]

Anyone notice the comment about the SS mirrors being bigger than the ones on the VY/VZ series?

I thought they were the same mirrors? :lol: Can a current owner confirm!

And they wanted an ultra wide convex mirror on the offiside - WTF? Isn't a normal one wide enough? They are fine on the VY/VZ series.

Bit of a dopey review IMHO.

[Carby650]

The big surprise, though, was the Falcon XR6 Turbo. It drank the least amount of fuel of the trio and had performance that was comparable to the SS-V.

The XR6 Turbo achieved a best result of just 10.2 litres/100km on the open road and the most it drank was 13.5 litres/100km on winding sections. Its average for the trip: 11.6 litres/100km.

So, if you want performance that won't break the bank, clearly the XR6 Turbo is the way to go. No wonder the NSW Police like them so much."


That xr6t is a dam fine car and has been since its release. Thing about it is that there is nothing made by any other manufacturer to compare it with so it gets grouped with the v8's and still competes well.

[NickS]

The beauty now is that which ever way you go, you can't really go wrong.
Well said :yup:

[Lad47]

Sounds good will need to check it out

[Carby]

From what I read in the article most of the trip was on sealed roads, with a couple of legs on dirt roads.

I really do hope that the cost of 19 inch tyres comes down with more demand and production otherwise it will be almost as expensive to buy tyres for these cars as it will to buy petrol to fuel them !

Too right - fact of the matter is most of the roads were sealed, but also the fact that you can take the SS on dirt roads with more comfort and surety is nice to know. I recently took my GTO to Kangaroo Island off SA and had to drive over several dirt roads to see anything, much to my disdain (no problems either!) - so suggestions that you would never use a performance car in those circumstances are sometimes way off the mark.

For most enthusiasts of fine motor vehicles (and I'm assuming a great many ply these forums), the most definitive comment from the article is:

"It is also the best drivers car here" - says it all for me.

[Road Warrior]

Personally I think this test was gay but thats just me.

Not because of the result - because most of the so-called "comparo" was done on goddamn dirt roads, obviously with large protruding rocks - who tests cars like this on a dirt road? Did they see a large rock sticking out of the track and decide to aim for it or something?

And the comments in the article about the mirrors "ooer the mirrors are too small/big/wrong colour/cant see my reflection" are absolutely pathetic. Here they have 3 hipo cars worth $140 - $150K and they start crapping on about bloody mirrors?! What a crock of shite.

PS Props to the SS. :)

[VYII_R8]

I too find this comparo total BS.

NUMBER 1: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS...
NUMBER 2: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS WITH SUCH BIG ROCKS??

Number 1:
Think about this for a moment... The XR6T and XR8 are the same height off the ground... Clearly both transmission sumps didn't get split open. I guess one of the drivers was looking where he was going, and the other wasn't!

Just because the XR8's transmission sump got split, doesn't mean that the SS's couldn't have been split. (just as the XR6T's didn't get spilt in my example above) I guess the person driving the SS was at least looking where he was going...

Number 2:
I know a few of you blokes have said that you had to drive on dirt roads... (so have I) but fair dinkum... who drives on dirt roads with rocks that protrude so high of the ground that they tear a sump open?? If you drove over that rock with your 19" rim consider it + the rubber on it DESTROYED!!

[Holden Man]

I suppose it doesn't really matter where they drove them the result is that the SS beat them both and if you had to have a ford then get the XR6T.

I think the more the journo's drive the VE the more they will discover and push it's dynamics and the more it will get praise.

The same thing happened when BA came out, the journos liked it then they loved it.

Every review so far has praised the way the new VE drives & handles.

[tuff304]

I too find this comparo total BS.

NUMBER 1: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS...
NUMBER 2: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS WITH SUCH BIG ROCKS??

Number 1:
Think about this for a moment... The XR6T and XR8 are the same height off the ground... Clearly both transmission sumps didn't get split open. I guess one of the drivers was looking where he was going, and the other wasn't!

Just because the XR8's transmission sump got split, doesn't mean that the SS's couldn't have been split. (just as the XR6T's didn't get spilt in my example above) I guess the person driving the SS was at least looking where he was going...

Number 2:
I know a few of you blokes have said that you had to drive on dirt roads... (so have I) but fair dinkum... who drives on dirt roads with rocks that protrude so high of the ground that they tear a sump open?? If you drove over that rock with your 19" rim consider it + the rubber on it DESTROYED!!

nicely said :thumbsup:

[Carby]

I too find this comparo total BS.

NUMBER 1: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS...
NUMBER 2: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS WITH SUCH BIG ROCKS??

Number 1:
Think about this for a moment... The XR6T and XR8 are the same height off the ground... Clearly both transmission sumps didn't get split open. I guess one of the drivers was looking where he was going, and the other wasn't!

Just because the XR8's transmission sump got split, doesn't mean that the SS's couldn't have been split. (just as the XR6T's didn't get spilt in my example above) I guess the person driving the SS was at least looking where he was going...

Number 2:
I know a few of you blokes have said that you had to drive on dirt roads... (so have I) but fair dinkum... who drives on dirt roads with rocks that protrude so high of the ground that they tear a sump open?? If you drove over that rock with your 19" rim consider it + the rubber on it DESTROYED!!

Gee didn't here of any complaints when they took the fleet cars (how often do fleet cars go on dirt roads?)over dirt roads - all I heard were Ford guys beating there chests saying how lousy (the Omega?) was for letting dust in the car.

It's not a matter of the Fords getting damaged it's a matter that the SS-V was clearly superior on dirt and sealed roads - thats the story.

[katman]

You're pushing it a little by saying it 'creams' them - my view is the SS is virtual 4*4 height - too high -

It would be concerning if it was not a superior car - esp with the outlay involved in the development of the car -

It amazes me now that Holden have finally engineered a 'real' independent rear end all the journo's suddenly make it out as the best handling car on the planet -
some of these journo's most who wok for 'Wheels' mag - used to proclaim the VZ SS / HSV's were great handlers - RUBBISH - my mate struggled, I mean struggled, with big oversteer, understeer etc to keep up with a Clio Cup through the Dandy twisties a few months ago - yes hes a bloody good driver and was pushing hard - he had to flog the crap out of it on the straights
this really highlighted the shortcomings of the old platform
Having only driven the SS for a test run its hard to say just how improved it really is - I dont read into what many journos have to say - Holdens Advert spend is the largest for any Aussie manufacturer - and completely independent/unbiased journo's are few and far between.

[Holden Man]

You're pushing it a little by saying it 'creams' them - my view is the SS is virtual 4*4 height - too high -

It would be concerning if it was not a superior car - esp with the outlay involved in the development of the car -

It amazes me now that Holden have finally engineered a 'real' independent rear end all the journo's suddenly make it out as the best handling car on the planet -
some of these journo's most who wok for 'Wheels' mag - used to proclaim the VZ SS / HSV's were great handlers - RUBBISH - my mate struggled, I mean struggled, with big oversteer, understeer etc to keep up with a Clio Cup through the Dandy twisties a few months ago - yes hes a bloody good driver and was pushing hard - he had to flog the crap out of it on the straights
this really highlighted the shortcomings of the old platform
Having only driven the SS for a test run its hard to say just how improved it really is - I dont read into what many journos have to say - Holdens Advert spend is the largest for any Aussie manufacturer - and completely independent/unbiased journo's are few and far between.


Maybe Holden have just done a better job on the suspension than Ford.

A clio cup could trouble any car in the twisty stuff.

Where you listening to the journos when they praised the fords ?

Yes holden advert of "most exciting car in the world " is lame

[katman]

Forgot to add - this typical comparison these 'expert' journos always flog in makes me laugh - I clearly recall these blokes comparing the BA against the 5 series and the Merc when the BA won car of the year - guess what - this year Holden will win Car of the year and they will be making the same comparisons -
'Th BA rides better than the MErc and on par with the 5 series' -

[VYII_R8]

Forgot to add - this typical comparison these 'expert' journos always flog in makes me laugh - I clearly recall these blokes comparing the BA against the 5 series and the Merc when the BA won car of the year - guess what - this year Holden will win Car of the year and they will be making the same comparisons -
'Th BA rides better than the MErc and on par with the 5 series' -

Agreed, I actually have the Wheels mag here (March 2004) with me regarding the Falcon and suspension setup which says... and I quote:
"Perucca is clearly impressed and decides to print out the results from another recent test. As he hands over the graphs for the Falcon (XR6T) and the new BMW 530 he smiles: 'Sorry, this is the only test we can perform because of the rain, but... "The Falcon scores 73 (out of 100), the BMW just 67..."

[RED R8]

Lets face it the VE is better all round than the BF it should be its newer but still its better thats what counts Holden got it right it had too ford now need to step up to the plate chances are as history shows they will take a step backwards.Essentialy VE is KING.

[Mr Moosh]

I think the ‘off-road’ thing had been exaggerated… the fact is they drove them on some rougher than usual roads, and the SSV did a better job at handling it. The Fords hit trouble, maybe due to the drive being an idiot, maybe not. But I think because the Fords did get into trouble, that became the main focus of the article, in particular for the XR8 cos they didn’t drive it for very long. Therefore, there was more coverage on the Fords ‘breaking’ in the rough stuff, so it seems like all they did was drive them on crap roads. A sign of bad journalism… but I don’t think they intentionally wanted to try and see what sort of crap driving conditions they could handle before breaking, they just hit some rough stuff, and the Fords didn’t survive. But id put that down to chance and their ride height, not that the Falcons fall apart.

Nonetheless, the SS would have wipped their arses around the track anyway :flip2:

My 2 cents,
Cheers

[Carby]

Forgot to add - this typical comparison these 'expert' journos always flog in makes me laugh - I clearly recall these blokes comparing the BA against the 5 series and the Merc when the BA won car of the year - guess what - this year Holden will win Car of the year and they will be making the same comparisons -
'Th BA rides better than the MErc and on par with the 5 series' -

These guys are experts - they get paid for driving and reviewing just about all new cars released on the Aussie market - what are your credentials other than whining about an unfavourable result for the Falcons?

[Venom XR]

Actually, the video part of that comparo is a laugh. To 'enhance' the visuals of the XR8 breaking down, they film a Fairmont pulling off to the side of the road. Very shoddy journalism. You can get sump guards, surely if they had alerted to Holden and Ford the nature of the test they may have fitted those?

Nice to see the VE winning the 'drivers car' accolade. From the early AU vs VT comparos, the Commodore often lost those despite being the faster car due to the Falcons being considered the better car overall to drive. That it has reversed shows Holden did a good job on the suspension, and I suspect that since it will also be quick on a circuit demonstrates that the engineers have really nailed it.

[PepeLePew]

I suspect that 100mm is under the chassis....which is good news if you're lowering the wheels up the guards, ya??? :)

[Carby]

Actually, the video part of that comparo is a laugh. To 'enhance' the visuals of the XR8 breaking down, they film a Fairmont pulling off to the side of the road. Very shoddy journalism. You can get sump guards, surely if they had alerted to Holden and Ford the nature of the test they may have fitted those?

Nice to see the VE winning the 'drivers car' accolade. From the early AU vs VT comparos, the Commodore often lost those despite being the faster car due to the Falcons being considered the better car overall to drive. That it has reversed shows Holden did a good job on the suspension, and I suspect that since it will also be quick on a circuit demonstrates that the engineers have really nailed it.


Maybe the SS-V was running the outback pack that lifts the suspension one inch!

Yeah the media are always doing that sort of thing - enhancing visuals esp., if it is in the negative. No need to do it, it just spawns bias comments. As a Holden person the fact the Fords had issues with clearance don't really mean that much to me - it could very much just be that the Holden driver avoided the offending rocks or whatever as has been suggested by others in the thread. Someone also suggested that the exterior mirrors should also not be commented on but I love that sort of stuff. The motor mags. use to do more on their comparos in the past eg testing the vehicles headlights, interior ergonomics - now the ascent is performance, fuel economy and ride/handling, which is the way it should be so long as they cover the small things also.

[clubbie]

Stop reaching for straws Katman.

The XR8 as stated in the SMH article just couln't handle the conditions. Even infering that a road tester tried to find rocks to hit is very very naive.

As explained in the article after going over some rolling type bumps the XR8 would pogo up and down before it settled on its suspension. Anyone with an 1/8th of a brain could work out that the nose heavy XR8 has gone over some bumps and then ground itself on the centre of the road.

The only problem for the XR8 is lack of bump and rebound control for those types of conditions. Rather simple really and any Ford enthusiast could fix that problem by fitting a new set of dampers/shocks.

Clubbie

[Abacus]

That was a disgraceful article.

They take three hi-po road cars, prang two of them, and come up with a verdict based on the the one that performed better in an environment the vehicles were not designed for.

[killer_taxi]

That has to be by far the worst comparison test I have ever read.

The Journalists knowledge of specifications was poor, "... the turbocharged 4.0-litre, six cylinder has more torque than both the Ford and Holden V8s... 550Nm of torque". The environment chosen to test these cars was stupid and unrealistic, they even stated this, "... the XR8 was never designed for these conditions and we were testing the car beyond its calling in life". Picking on little thing like this, “…important switches such as the hazard light button are obscured by the steering wheel.” is a waste of time and is not going to have an effect on the ability of a car being able to sell. How often do you have to use your hazard lights!? Oh forgot, there good at damaging cars.

I found the article to feel a little biased. The Commodore SS was always going to win this comparison test (it’s a good car!), it just seemed that they didn't want to say to many good things about the Fords. They listed many problems/faults with the XR's and hardly said any positives. The only positives that I read were about the sound of the XR8, better brakes over the old model, and the XR6T having a brilliant engine.

Also, missing in this comparison test was fuel consumption figures, performance figures, and equipment lists. I think the problem was they were far to busy writing about the accidents they had.

From now on, I’ll read quality such as Wheels for information, and will read Drive (and Carsguide for that matter) for a laugh.

[SV805]

It has been said before, but I will say it again slower for you lot that don't think the Fords had a fair go.

2000 km/s travelled before the rock incident, I would say a fair distance to guage which is the better car. A large portion of this first 2000 km/s on the hard stuff.

[BadMac]

I too find this comparo total BS.

NUMBER 1: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS...
NUMBER 2: WHY TEST ON DIRT ROADS WITH SUCH BIG ROCKS??

Number 1:
Think about this for a moment... The XR6T and XR8 are the same height off the ground... Clearly both transmission sumps didn't get split open. I guess one of the drivers was looking where he was going, and the other wasn't!

Just because the XR8's transmission sump got split, doesn't mean that the SS's couldn't have been split. (just as the XR6T's didn't get spilt in my example above) I guess the person driving the SS was at least looking where he was going...

Number 2:
I know a few of you blokes have said that you had to drive on dirt roads... (so have I) but fair dinkum... who drives on dirt roads with rocks that protrude so high of the ground that they tear a sump open?? If you drove over that rock with your 19" rim consider it + the rubber on it DESTROYED!!


I can't beleive the selective reporting going on here. Too many opinons (or maybe minions) to crawl through and quote, but at least attempt to read the article, yes there aren't that many pictures, but maybe an adult can help you guys with the big words.

"The Ford was the second car in our seven-car convoy; the leading Commodore SS, which rides about 100mm higher than the low-slung XR8, went over the same section of road without incident. Who knows what would have happened if the Falcon had a metal oil pan - rather than plastic - under its automatic transmission?"

"To be fair, the XR8 was never designed for these conditions and we were testing the car beyond its calling in life. Nor would an XR8 owner be likely to drive his or her car on these roads. However, it's worth noting that the dirt roads we travelled on are the main arterial links between country towns in the north-west corner of NSW and are far from four-wheel-drive-only territory."

[VYII_R8]

I can't beleive the selective reporting going on here. Too many opinons (or maybe minions) to crawl through and quote, but at least attempt to read the article, yes there aren't that many pictures, but maybe an adult can help you guys with the big words.

"The Ford was the second car in our seven-car convoy; the leading Commodore SS, which rides about 100mm higher than the low-slung XR8, went over the same section of road without incident. Who knows what would have happened if the Falcon had a metal oil pan - rather than plastic - under its automatic transmission?"

"To be fair, the XR8 was never designed for these conditions and we were testing the car beyond its calling in life. Nor would an XR8 owner be likely to drive his or her car on these roads. However, it's worth noting that the dirt roads we travelled on are the main arterial links between country towns in the north-west corner of NSW and are far from four-wheel-drive-only territory."

Mate, if you looked at my analogy in the post of mine you quoted I was pointing out that the position in the convoy is of little relevance.

If we follow your train of thought, then the car BEHIND the XR8 (which must have been the XR6T as we know the XR8 was SECOND in the queue behind the SS) must also have torn its transmission sump! Which clearly it DIDN'T. So what does this mean??? This means that that XR8 driver and XR6T driver must have taken slightly different paths on the road... Just the SAME way that the SS and XR8 probably took different paths.

Anyway, it's hardly worth an argument over.. we know the SS has an extra 100mm of clearance, so most likely, even if they took the same path, it would have cleared it... but still - I am just wanting to point out that your logic is flawed.

Not wanting to start anything here mate, just wanting to play devil's advocate on this occassion :)

[BadMac]

Mate, if you looked at my analogy in the post of mine you quoted I was pointing out that the position in the convoy is of little relevance.

If we follow your train of thought, then the car BEHIND the XR8 (which must have been the XR6T as we know the XR8 was SECOND in the queue behind the SS) must also have torn its transmission sump! Which clearly it DIDN'T. So what does this mean??? This means that that XR8 driver and XR6T driver must have taken slightly different paths on the road... Just the SAME way that the SS and XR8 probably took different paths.

Anyway, it's hardly worth an argument over.. we know the SS has an extra 100mm of clearance, so most likely, even if they took the same path, it would have cleared it... but still - I am just wanting to point out that your logic is flawed.

Not wanting to start anything here mate, just wanting to play devil's advocate on this occassion :)

Sorry as well I wasn't picking on you, I just chose your post to quote, there were others before you who had selectively quoted the article to suit their needs. We can all read so if people want to quote bits ensure they don't distort the context.



They take three hi-po road cars, prang two of them, and come up with a verdict based on the the one that performed better in an environment the vehicles were not designed for.


Not because of the result - because most of the so-called "comparo" was done on goddamn dirt roads, obviously with large protruding rocks - who tests cars like this on a dirt road? Did they see a large rock sticking out of the track and decide to aim for it or something?



"To be fair, the XR8 was never designed for these conditions and we were testing the car beyond its calling in life. Nor would an XR8 owner be likely to drive his or her car on these roads. However, it's worth noting that the dirt roads we travelled on are the main arterial links between country towns in the north-west corner of NSW and are far from four-wheel-drive-only territory."

[EfiJy]

the artical was tottaly crap.:flipoff:

[ADSXR8]

It has been said before, but I will say it again slower for you lot that don't think the Fords had a fair go.

2000 km/s travelled before the rock incident, I would say a fair distance to guage which is the better car. A large portion of this first 2000 km/s on the hard stuff.

And I will say things even slower for people like yourself. There would be no way the Holden would have won the comparison if it finished on the back of the truck.

Both Ford's had substantial damage that was inflicted by the testers of drive.com.au.

Drive released a video only days ago claiming the SSV won by default because of a accident to the XR8, now they claim it did not effect the result. You are clucthing at straws.

[clubbie]

And I will say things even slower for people like yourself. There would be no way the Holden would have won the comparison if it finished on the back of the truck.

Both Ford's had substantial damage that was inflicted by the testers of drive.com.au.

Drive released a video only days ago claiming the SSV won by default because of a accident to the XR8, now they claim it did not effect the result. You are clucthing at straws.

And how would you know. I supose you were on the spot.:lol:

ADS re-read most of the posts. The majority on this and other forums agree it wasn't the best comparo.. but you don't seem to understand that....am I going to fast for you...I will slow this down... the XR8 is not suited to outback work. Doesn't make it a bad car. Just not suited to the environment it was driven in.

Now we agree, wait for the real comparo's with real performance data so when the XR8 gets spanked by SS SS V & XR6T (like it has in every other comparo) then you can come on here claiming another unfair result.:flip2:

[sir.richard]

Hey all,

First post here. Have been lurking around since I went to the Holden staff opening of the VE (Not a staff member, but have a few friends that are).

Must say I enjoyed reading the SMH article, but thought a few of the responses by some people here werent too realistic, and thought I would post my thoughts on that.

But first in the interests of full disclosure, I currently drive an XR6 Turbo. My car before that was an XR6 Turbo too. They are outstanding cars and anyone saying otherwise hasnt spent much time with one or is just too biased or emotional to bother taking seriously. Early next year I'll be in an SS-V as Im not impressed with the XR8's performance (my T kills them in acceleration and handling, without any effort...although the XR8's do sound awesome) and the work-deals I get means the SS is the only real sports alternative to a 3rd T (which Im keen to avoid because its a car I have well and truly conquered).

I am a sports car enthusiast foremost. Brand is not relevant to me. Its all about performance, handling, acceleration and that "feeling" only a sports car gives you.

So, onto some observations of the SMH article and some of the comments:

- To be honest, if I were a hard-core Holden enthusiast I wouldnt get too excited about that article and imply that it means the Fords are crap and were "beaten". About the only thing that is positive and worth noting is that the SS-V apparently handles better on dirt to some extent because it recovers from bumps a little quicker due to less rebound.

- Seriously, how many people give a damn about how a sports car made for tarmac and tracks handles on dirt? I mean come on guys, these are road sports cars and not rally cars. If you want off-road performance I am sure you would be driving a WRX. On dirt the biggest determinant on how well a vehicle does if trying to go fast is the drivers skill - Id pit Colin McRae in a Datsun 120Y on dirt vs any normal driver in a SS-V or XR6T any day...

- It was clear from the damage they did to 2/3 of the cars that they were not on a normal dirt road. You dont often do that kind of damage on normal dirt roads. That makes it even less relevant as its likely the owner of an XR6T or SS-V would be driving more carefully than those idiots did. Think about how big a lump of clay you would need to hit ON the road to bend a sway bar like they did on the T.....and think about how much stuff would need to be built up in the middle of the road to take out the XR8. I have had my XR6T 100% airborne twice at over 140kmh, landed so hard I bottomed out the suspension on all 4 corners (the landing could be heard in a caprice 200m behind with the stereo on and windows wound up...) and there was no ill effect.
They werent normal roads they were driving on. Would love to see a photo of the area...would be very interesting and I think would make the average reader say "what a dumb test for a road sports car".

- The SS-V getting through unscathed because it has 100mm extra clearance is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a good thing guys. Well not if you are interested in sports cars. Road focussed sports cars should be low! It being higher will have all kinds of negative effects on handling compared to the same car being set up properly at a lower height. Come on...I dare any sports car enthusiast to try and argue otherwise based on facts! It is the reason its likely that the hottest mod for the new SS's will be lowering....even more popular than exhuast or intake mods I would predict. Everyone who has seen one in the flesh will agree it looks to some degree like it was designed for stump jumping...

- Im not sure what they mean about the XR's steering being too light. I have had 2 of them in the last 4 years and the steering is excellent. I have never noticed anything like it being too sensitive or fast at high speeds and I have taken them as fast as they go. Perhaps in the hands of an amateur, but in the hands of someone who knows how to drive (it is a sports car afterall....) Id prefer that to dead and slow steering. Try driving an Enzo if you want direct steering. An XR isnt anything like sensitive. I think the journos who wrote the article drive base model unresponsive cars...

- And finally, how on earth could a bunch of guys who have their hands on the best Aussie sports cars write a 6 page article about performance on rough off-road territory? They should be sacked, and I'll take their place. I personally would much more have preferred a single paragraph on off-road performance and 5.99 pages on road performance....

So there you go, post #1 :)

Richard

[lowriding]

Welcome to LS1 Richard ,thanks for your input, not backward in coming forward in the first post ! But i have a Q -if your really just a sports car enthusiast why is your post simply dedicated to defending the XR6 ? Why would anyone join a Holden Forum to post that ?Just asking the Q.Seriously if your only here to post pro - Falcon commentry or defense ,please you would be wasting your time IMO.Dont fear however there are already many , many MANY here doing that job for you :) I beleive this is already one of the more balanced forums out there , it doesn't require more balance !
I go to the FF board for an alternative view & i come here to read /learn/discuss GM ..ie discussion thereof Holden based material . every VE thread i open i read post after post about XR6T and Typhoon and why they are better than a VE .Cry me a river.Be happy with what you have and please let others do the same. I believe the members here are all big enough and ugly enough to find their way to the turbo Falcon forums should they want to read mostly about that. Sorry mods delete if you desire but i need to get it off my chest :) + i think i speak for a silent majority . We are true enthusiasts that don't require a constant force fed other view !

[Wonky]

This will no doubt just start another endless round of never resolved to and fro-ing between Holden and (the too many) Ford fans on here, but FFS is this a Holden or Ford forum? I thought it was a Holden one and as such come on to read about Holdens and given the fact that it is a Holden forum I expect a little pro Holden bias. Same as if I went to the forum for any other performance car I would expect things to be biased toward them too – that’s only natural.

I am certainly not saying only pro Holden comments from Holden drivers should be allowed and expect a proportion of (hopefully reasonably balanced) posts from the dark side. However, ever since the VE came out there has been a shitload of whining, whinging Ford guys making up every excuse under the sun for why their marque is no longer winning the comparos.

The fact that the performance VEs are in many respects better cars is already widely acknowledged by most car experts, so how about you biased Ford guys just pi$$ off with your whining excuses and let us have our moment in the sun!

The fact that the VE is so good just means that Ford will make their all new model even better, so WE ALL WIN. Many people here have freely acknowledged how good the XR6Ts and Typhoons are compared to previous Commodores so instead of bitching and moaning about unfair comparisons etc just go back to FF please if all you are going to do is whine.

Hopefully Holden guys haven’t inundated FF in the last year or two doing the same whinging and moaning when Ford arguably had the better product with the aforementioned cars, although I guess I’m so sick of reading so many biased Ford posts on here (eg. the VE SS v XR8 v XR6T thread) that a perverse part of me maybe hopes they have been doing that.

Seems to me like the Ford guys are just poor losers……..

Gary

[Orion]

I've been a Holden man since well forever.

The fact that the VE is so good, it makes all the other commodores (including the one I drive) seem pants in comparison should be reason enough for the FORD squad to cheer. Basically it shows that in the last decade up until now Holden have been dragging their arse with 'just good enough' cars.

As the OP said, FORD guys be happy.... the rebuttle will be bigger and better than VE and that's a good thing. Right?

[lowriding]

Thanks Gary !:bravo: get it off your chest I posted something similar just a little while ago .I have a lot of time for the many older regular one eyed blue fans here , but the scores of new entrants joining up merely to post tart comments over the last month is wearing very thin -and giving Ford blokes a bad name to boot. Maybe its just been a bad day ...

[Orion]

Welcome to LS1 Richard ,thanks for your input, not backward in coming forward in the first post ! But i have a Q -if your really just a sports car enthusiast why is your post simply dedicated to defending the XR6 ? Why would anyone join a Holden Forum to post that ?Just asking the Q.Seriously if your only here to post pro - Falcon commentry or defense ,please you would be wasting your time IMO.Dont fear however there are already many , many MANY here doing that job for you :) I beleive this is already one of the more balanced forums out there , it doesn't require more balance !
I go to the FF board for an alternative view & i come here to read /learn/discuss GM ..ie discussion thereof Holden based material . every VE thread i open i read post after post about XR6T and Typhoon and why they are better than a VE .Cry me a river.Be happy with what you have and please let others do the same. I believe the members here are all big enough and ugly enough to find their way to the turbo Falcon forums should they want to read mostly about that. Sorry mods delete if you desire but i need to get it off my chest :) + i think i speak for a silent majority . We are true enthusiasts that don't require a constant force fed other view !

lowriding: If you bothered to read sir.richard's post he clearly states his next ride is an SS-V. Seems a pretty valid reason for joining and contributing to a Holden forum yes? Also, given the fact his has not only owned, but fanged two XR6Ts in recent times, he is a pretty good person to comment on the article in question.

sir.richard: (nice name) Welcome (I'm pretty new myself... SS-V on order etc). Nice first post, I like your style and I like your approach to sports cars. Whilst I've never been inticed to actually buy a Ford, I can appreciate the good ones just the same. If I had the money neither Holden nor Ford would be getting my sports car allowance.

Just a few issues with some of your comments though. You say:

- To be honest, if I were a hard-core Holden enthusiast I wouldnt get too excited about that article and imply that it means the Fords are crap and were "beaten". About the only thing that is positive and worth noting is that the SS-V apparently handles better on dirt to some extent because it recovers from bumps a little quicker due to less rebound.

However the article when referring to the XR8s rebound problems is not talking about dirt at all. It's undulating tarmac which is, let's face it, quite relevant. The review team also make quite a few other interesting comments about the handling of the SS-V vs either Ford. It may well be subjective but it's indication to me at least that the VE design is a good one.

Also, everyone seems to be bent out of shape about testing on dirt, but the majority of the testing was not done on dirt. I agree the relevance of dirt for XR6/8 and SS type cars is low but it's not like the test was done exclusively on dirt. As far as Drive are concerned, the SS-V handles better on tarmac and for what it's worth, dirt.

As others have said, no matter what you buy you'll have fun with it. I'm just glad I'm in the market for a new car right at the perfect time and could get an SS-V.

EDIT: Whoa, seems the few post above were merged from a completely different thread so my post two above is kinda about of context. Anywho whatever.

[Vulture]

why cant they test on normal roads instead of unsealed roads out the back of bourke.

they even mention these are roads are unlikely to be encounted by most drivers.

congrats to the SS though

My thoughts exactly - WTF is with testing them on roads that trashed 2 out of 3 of the cars?

[motomk]

As I have said before...Anybody can post on here. It doesn't matter what car you drive.
Yes it has been a bad day, I agree there, which I will put peoples attitudes down to.

If you wanted it to be just, "Holden is fantastic" and never hear any adverse comment, wouldn't this place be boring???

I get very annoyed when peoples views on other posters and their opinions are directly linked to what car they drive....admit it, how many of you go and look at what a poster drives? Does that then influence what you about to type? :yup:

motomk

[BadMac]

FFS, Yes this is a Holden forum, but last time I checked this was the "General Automotive" section for "General Automotive Related News and Discussions"

That means ALL opinions are welcome so the Holden Fans calm down and welcome people with alternate preferences, and Ford people think about your posts are you really giving your honest opinion or are you just trying to bait the more emotional members. If your posts are just baiting and designed to inflame we don't want you and I encourage the moderators to police the trolls more robustly. For the Ford and other brand members, I really enjoy the posts which not only challange the mind, but help me in researching my next purchasing decision.

[Carby]

Well when you get some bloke like Sir Richard on here who gives an over inflated opinion on his ride it's hard not to take on the Poster sometimes - because the majority of people on this forum are not fools and for him to say his ride flogs SS's and the like should be stated as an opinion not fact.

That is why these road reports are vital - they are done by professional testers so to ADSXR8, FREAKY, VULTURE,VY 2R8 and the new guy with the over inflated opinion on his XR6T ( mate read MOTOR mag, the old VZ flogged the VZ in standing qtr so there's one of your so called performance advantages blown away) The two performance Fords were beaten on the tarmac and on the dirt, you are trying to deflect and make too much of the dirt side of the road test.

Just to remind you of the closing comments "the SS-V is the drivers car" - GAME OVER!!!:lol:

[EfiJy]

hey sir richard. maybe you could tell us on here how the falcon not having a 50:50 weight distro is not a good thing for a more balanced view. :lmao:

[PepeLePew]

This thread is becoming really tiring. Too much one eyed BS from both sides.

Somebody do us all a favour and close it before we lose faith in this place.

P.S. in defence of Sir.Richard he did state hes owned two XR6T's. So hes speaking from his personal experience, LIKE ALL OF YOU. Well many probably havent even driven a VE but.... No matter which side of the fence you support, your opinions SHOULD be welcome. Im sure he'd be happy to hear rebuttals, thats what its all about. Not just criticizing posts telling him hes one eyed blah blah....

P.P.S. can we please watch our usage of the term 'sports cars'. These are sports versions of family sedans. Im not paranoid about usage of the term, but its being thrown about way too much in this thread. Drive uses the term=good reason not to use it :)

[Freaky]

That is why these road reports are vital - they are done by professional testers so to ADSXR8, FREAKY, VULTURE,VY 2R8 and the new guy with the over inflated opinion on his XR6T ( mate read MOTOR mag, the old VZ flogged the VZ in standing qtr so there's one of your so called performance advantages blown away) The two performance Fords were beaten on the tarmac and on the dirt, you are trying to deflect and make too much of the dirt side of the road test.

as I stated in my earlier posted. Congrats to the SS, it is a better car.


I for one would never drive my car on these unsealed type roads out in the middle of nowhere, so do not care what car handles better as a 4x4 on shitty roads.

I am more interested in track, and normal roads. These are the reviews I am waiting for.

May see if I can get a test drive of an SS this weekend to see what the hype is all about.

[F6 Hoon]

Hardly an overwhelming victory for the SS over the XR6T, but it is over the XR8. Frankly, I don't why Ford/FPV even bother with the XR8/GT(P) - both are poor performing performance cars and drink too much fuel. Nevertheless, a win is a win. It's a shame the manual suffers from driveline shunt but I guess that's the trade off having to run an agricultural type trans to cope with the torque of these motors.

I look forward to reading the comparisons between the F6 and HSV models. No matter which brand you buy, you'll still come out a winner.

[Carby]

as I stated in my earlier posted. Congrats to the SS, it is a better car.


I for one would never drive my car on these unsealed type roads out in the middle of nowhere, so do not care what car handles better as a 4x4 on shitty roads.

I am more interested in track, and normal roads. These are the reviews I am waiting for.

May see if I can get a test drive of an SS this weekend to see what the hype is all about.


I agree - I think those tests will be more real world and I look forwarde to them.

[BadMac]

as I stated in my earlier posted. Congrats to the SS, it is a better car.


I for one would never drive my car on these unsealed type roads out in the middle of nowhere, so do not care what car handles better as a 4x4 on shitty roads.

I am more interested in track, and normal roads. These are the reviews I am waiting for.

May see if I can get a test drive of an SS this weekend to see what the hype is all about.

I would honestly appreciate reading your comments after you do (open a new thread titled "F6 owners review of VE", so nobody misunderstands). Even though the SS shouldn't compete with the F6 (XR6T and XR8), I would love to hear both your overall opinions (strengths, weaknesses) and some comments compared to F6, and even other cars you may have driven/owned.

[Generation IV]

hi guys im new to this forum but ill catch on quick.

Im agreeing with u guys on the rediculous location of the test, but i guess they wanted to see Ford and Holdens potential on shitty roads. It would've been embarrassing if it were the SS on the back of the truck. in the beginning of the article they stated that one of them didn't make it to Bathurst and was towed home, i dreaded it was the SS but i knew it was probably the XR8 as it sort of is accident prone.

[PepeLePew]

hi guys im new to this forum but ill catch on quick.

Im agreeing with u guys on the rediculous location of the test, but i guess they wanted to see Ford and Holdens potential on shitty roads. It would've been embarrassing if it were the SS on the back of the truck. in the beginning of the article they stated that one of them didn't make it to Bathurst and was towed home, i dreaded it was the SS but i knew it was probably the XR8 as it sort of is accident prone.

Gday mate and welcome to the forum :)

However can you please translate the last line?

[Danv8]

This will no doubt just start another endless round of never resolved to and fro-ing between Holden and (the too many) Ford fans on here, but FFS is this a Holden or Ford forum? I thought it was a Holden one and as such come on to read about Holdens and given the fact that it is a Holden forum I expect a little pro Holden bias. Same as if I went to the forum for any other performance car I would expect things to be biased toward them too – that’s only natural.

I am certainly not saying only pro Holden comments from Holden drivers should be allowed and expect a proportion of (hopefully reasonably balanced) posts from the dark side. However, ever since the VE came out there has been a shitload of whining, whinging Ford guys making up every excuse under the sun for why their marque is no longer winning the comparos.

The fact that the performance VEs are in many respects better cars is already widely acknowledged by most car experts, so how about you biased Ford guys just pi$$ off with your whining excuses and let us have our moment in the sun!

The fact that the VE is so good just means that Ford will make their all new model even better, so WE ALL WIN. Many people here have freely acknowledged how good the XR6Ts and Typhoons are compared to previous Commodores so instead of bitching and moaning about unfair comparisons etc just go back to FF please if all you are going to do is whine.

Hopefully Holden guys haven’t inundated FF in the last year or two doing the same whinging and moaning when Ford arguably had the better product with the aforementioned cars, although I guess I’m so sick of reading so many biased Ford posts on here (eg. the VE SS v XR8 v XR6T thread) that a perverse part of me maybe hopes they have been doing that.

Seems to me like the Ford guys are just poor losers……..

Gary


Well put Gary I just had a look at AFF and they are having a major sook session about the article.

Ford has done well with the BA/BF series and they have had an excellent run on the pedestal since the release of the BA Falcons.

Now its Holdens turn to have the pedestal for a while.

Its Our turn god damn it! ours! :dance:

[Haze]

:box:

The VE is a great car and Holden should be proud.

Holden enthusiests should be proud.

Members of this forum should be proud.

If you don't like your Holdens then go post your comments somewhere else :flip3:

[vecommo]

Well put Gary I just had a look at AFF and they are having a major sook session about the article.

Ford has done well with the BA/BF series and they have had an excellent run on the pedestal since the release of the BA Falcons.

Now its Holdens turn to have the pedestal for a while.

Its Our turn god damn it! ours! :dance:

Exactly, some people seem to have very short memories. Ford has had immense praise by the media for the BA/BF range ever since they were launched. Holden fans were even sensible and open minded enough to admit that Ford had done very well and had a superior product.
Now that the tables have turned and Holden has the clearly superior product, Ford fans have done nothing but whinge like 8 year old sore losers, accusing the media of bias and chequebook journalism. How can this be so?

[andrewdisco]

As a potential buyer i think i'd choose the Falcon XR6T purely because the Holden has now lost any weight advantage it had.

Then when you add in how easy and cheap it is to get mega power out of the falcon T it's a win again.

Also in the falcon you can cruise along the freeway or in town getting 6 cyl fuel consumption if you wish.... just drive it off boost.

6 Litre 1800kg v8... what were holden thinking.

Sure the holden won... but this is a comparison between stock cars... and how many of us leave them stock ?

The main postives for the Holden would be the interior and exterior asthetics...

Ford really need to work on their interiors... not as bad as a WRX/STi... but still a bit povo.

[nikola]

Also in the falcon you can cruise along the freeway or in town getting 6 cyl fuel consumption if you wish.... just drive it off boost.

When will people learn that this statement is quite simply not true? It's along the same lines as believing that a 5.4 litre V8 is physically smaller than a 6.0 litre V8 simply because of the capacity difference.

[Carby]

Me! I leave them stock now, been there and done that with modified cars and I'm over it - very over it!

If you buy the XR6T I'm sure you won't be disappointed and its not necessarily the case of second best either, just what suits you better - go for it!! :D

[andrewdisco]

When will people learn that this statement is quite simply not true? It's along the same lines as believing that a 5.4 litre V8 is physically smaller than a 6.0 litre V8 simply because of the capacity difference.

I'm happy to have it explained to me ? my clubsport was effectively using 8L/100KM just idling at the lights... you saying a smaller turbo charged engine will use just as much ?

I understand under load that a 4 or 6 cyl turbo will use just as much to create the same amount of energy (unless you drive a lighter car which is part of my point), but cruising, idling etc... I don't understand how you have a 6 litre v8 engine with massive losses due pumping & friction and say it doesn't use as much...

have i overlooked something in the turbo ?

if there isn't an issue why are they even suggesting variable displacement technology ?

[nikola]

I'm happy to have it explained to me ? my clubsport was effectively using 8L/100KM just idling at the lights... you saying a smaller turbo charged engine will use just as much ?

I understand under load that a 4 or 6 cyl turbo will use just as much to create the same amount of energy (unless you drive a lighter car which is part of my point), but cruising, idling etc... I don't understand how you have a 6 litre v8 engine with massive losses due pumping & friction and say it doesn't use as much...

Because theory and reality are sometimes two very different things. In theory, a 150kg heavier VE should not be any faster than a VZ with 10 kw less but it is.

You're kidding yourself if you think that because the engine has two fewer cylinders and litres you will get better economy. Yes, if all you do is idle at the traffic lights then maybe, the Turbo will burn less. But the fact is, an XR6T burns virtually the same amount of fuel as an SS in a combined city/town cycle. And that is all that matters, the end result.

[PepeLePew]

When will people learn that this statement is quite simply not true? It's along the same lines as believing that a 5.4 litre V8 is physically smaller than a 6.0 litre V8 simply because of the capacity difference.

Having driven both my edited LS1 and the XR6T for many miles I can say its unequivocally correct. The 6T IS thirstier than an N/A but the LS1 is one step higher in consumption again. In my type of driving miles we're talking 2l/100 b/w the N/A and the 6T and an extra 2l/100 to the LS1.

I could only average 14.4l/100 in my h/c LS1, 12.8 edit only, 10.6 in the 6T. The LS1 has the advantage there in that it was M6 and I used that tall 6th daily....the other cars were 4 spd auto. And the 6T wasnt edited (which improves on the over-rich factory tune also) and the LS1 was.

Course I drive like a grannie so not many people would achieve those numbers in the same cars :) But the relative numbers are interesting. In saying that, 2l/100 isnt really a huge difference unless you really are paranoid about economy.

[andrewdisco]

Nikola, thanks for that SCIENTIFIC explanation :p

If the VE is quicker it's probably related to either power, transmission, final gearing changes etc. At the end of the day Physics is physics though... weight, no. of cylinders and displacement are always going to have a negative impact on fuel in low load situations compared to smaller capacity engines (i.e when you want to ease off on fuel consumption).

No, we don't sit there idling all day... but spending half your trip into the city idling at the lights in peak hour burning 8/100 is a waste of fuel no matter what language you speak.

Thanks for the personal experience Pepe.. sounds like if you'd thrown an edit and 6 speed at the Ford it might have equated to the Holden using 30-40% more ? (edit usually grabs you about 2/100 at cruise ?). Which could potentially equate to a four figure dollar saving a year...

Anyway, my basic point was that generally when comparing apples to apples, especially now that the VE is 1800kg, i think you have a better option in terms of easing off to save fuel if you choose to in the T6..

But if it was all about fuel i guess you wouldn't drive either car ? :p

[Dane VN V8]

Nikola, thanks for that SCIENTIFIC explanation :p


But if it was all about fuel i guess you wouldn't drive either car ? :p

:lmao:

That's what I am thinking, if you care about fuel so much go and buy a Suzuki Swift :D .

Dane

[Fnomna]

6 Litre 1800kg v8... what were holden thinking.

Increased strength and safety. Maybe that's what Holden were thinking.
Which question do you think more people ask:
- How safe is it / what safety features has it got?
- How many kilos does it weigh?

(And as a potential buyer yourself, which do you care about more - weight or your safety?)

I think people are more likely to ask what it's performance is like than what it weighs. Sure the 2 are related, but if Holden has increased safety and strength and still maintained performance - why wouldn't a V8 driver be happy with that? :)

[andrewdisco]

yeah, but every manufacturer is thinking about safety as well and quite often coming up with a compromise between performance, weight and economics...

if weight wasnt an issue when considering safety then i'd prob get a v8 landcruiser and strap a couple of turbo's to it :p

the problem is holden are making cheap high performance cars and weight saving not to mention fuel saving technologies are out of reach for their budget. Aparently the reasont the 6L doesn't have variable displacement is because the just couldnt afford to test and implement it on a <$50,000 car....

[Dacious]

have i overlooked something in the turbo ?

if there isn't an issue why are they even suggesting variable displacement technology ?

Yep. Off boost, it's a low comp motor in a heavier car with big lumps of metal partially blocking intake and exhaust, which are far from optimally-shaped for equal flow per cylinder when not under boost, which produces a lot less torque at those revs than a n/a six. So to drive it off boost (which means keeping it less than 2,000rpm) a n/a six will get better consumption. So why not just buy the n/a BF A6 six if driving with that in mind?

As soon as you spool the turbo, then it's drinking like an 8. If you're talking performance modified cars, why is economy even an issue? A cammed car is going to drink more, as is a car with gears and a stallie.

The better straightline performance of the VE cars is not just due to power or gearing (although it sounds like drivability has improved, indicating low-rpm torque gains) but due to the fact that the weight distritbution and traction characteristics are enhanced by the positioning of the wheels and the better rear suspension. That coupled with the A6 just gives it much more tractability.

Where traction control would be kicking in (or wheelspin) on a VZ or BF, the multi-link rear end is not winding up as much under power as trailing arm types - so it is putting more of the drive down. It has lower unsprung weight so stays more reactive with less springing and damping. Why the AU IRS was probably better, as wishbones control wind-up better. The Ford V8's issue is the weight over the nose which unloads the rear, and the 6T motor is still heavier than a L76 with turbo and plumbing and it's longer and higher (can't be recessed under the firewall like the L76) and further in front of the CofG of the car.

[andrewdisco]

Excellent information there,

Alot of the time what you gain on the swings you lose on the round-a-bouts...

A question though - a heavier car than what ? the NA model ? or you mean the holden ? because now the holden is the heavier car...

Fuels gains are all about averages which is why people tout the ls1 edit as being so great for leaning off the motor on deceleration and cruise etc... so if that's worth touting then so is the 6T's ability to cut down even further on cruise.

It wouldn't be so bad if the ls1 was good under 3000rpm.. but it's always felt very v6ish to me... so to me not alot can be found there in favour of the v8. (Unless you start talking about the low rev's streetability of the 195i motor which was lovely around town cruising albeit shocking fuel consumption).

I don't doubt there are lots of cranks coming in for the 6T's... being a boosted car people will always push it to much larger numbers than the NA 8's. If people could push the Holdens to over 300rwkw as easily as the fords then you'd prob start seeing more bent rods/cranks etc..

But overall cubes do rule for longevity, but as always there are other factors to consider.... one of which is bang for your buck (nothing easier than winding up the boost).

But they each have their positives and the holden has lost many for me now that it's heavier than a ford. Will be interesting to watch the sales figures to gain a true perspective of the publics perception...

[JimmyXR6T04]

Yep. Off boost, it's a low comp motor in a heavier car with big lumps of metal partially blocking intake and exhaust, which are far from optimally-shaped for equal flow per cylinder when not under boost, which produces a lot less torque at those revs than a n/a six. So to drive it off boost (which means keeping it less than 2,000rpm) a n/a six will get better consumption. So why not just buy the n/a BF A6 six if driving with that in mind?

As soon as you spool the turbo, then it's drinking like an 8. If you're talking performance modified cars, why is economy even an issue? A cammed car is going to drink more, as is a car with gears and a stallie.

The better straightline performance of the VE cars is not just due to power or gearing (although it sounds like drivability has improved, indicating low-rpm torque gains) but due to the fact that the weight distritbution and traction characteristics are enhanced by the positioning of the wheels and the better rear suspension. That coupled with the A6 just gives it much more tractability.

Where traction control would be kicking in (or wheelspin) on a VZ or BF, the multi-link rear end is not winding up as much under power as trailing arm types - so it is putting more of the drive down. It has lower unsprung weight so stays more reactive with less springing and damping. Why the AU IRS was probably better, as wishbones control wind-up better. The Ford V8's issue is the weight over the nose which unloads the rear, and the 6T motor is still heavier than a L76 with turbo and plumbing and it's longer and higher (can't be recessed under the firewall like the L76) and further in front of the CofG of the car.

you don't necessarily need to drive under 2000rpm to keep it off boost. its all about load. For example, i can cruise at part throttle up to around 3500rpm and still not use any boost. Its really good for just cruising and putting around. Put the foot flat though, and boost will start winding up anywhere from 2000rpm and hit max of around 15psi by around 3500rpm. Obviously mine's modified, however, they can be driven off boost with a standard car too.

I do agree though, drive around with the foot flat and they can drink up the juice, however, the option is there to drive it easy and basically like a normal 6.

[xshore]

I saw plenty of posts complaining about them testing the cars in non-perfect roads. Well I don't live in the heart of the city where roads are perfect and many people are in the same boat. We are in AUSTRALIA enough said in my books, many roads with not much money thrown at them.

[Dacious]

Excellent information there,

A question though - a heavier car than what ? the NA model ? or you mean the holden ? because now the holden is the heavier car...

Fuels gains are all about averages which is why people tout the ls1 edit as being so great for leaning off the motor on deceleration and cruise etc... so if that's worth touting then so is the 6T's ability to cut down even further on cruise.

It wouldn't be so bad if the ls1 was good under 3000rpm.. but it's always felt very v6ish to me... so to me not alot can be found there in favour of the v8. (Unless you start talking about the low rev's streetability of the 195i motor which was lovely around town cruising albeit shocking fuel consumption).

I...

I meant the XR6T is heavier than the XR6. So off boost, the restrictions due to turbo impellers and low-comp motor will lose a bit. While the SS-V is a bit heaver, the SS is not due to the extra fruit it's missing. I think the L98 is a lot gruntier than the the LS1, plus the A4 with 3.08 of the earlier car is taller in 1st but shorter in top than the A6 of the SS which effectively has a ratio above and below with closer spacing. It's the tallish gearing esp. in the autos but even in the T56 first that makes them feel weak down low.

You wouldn't want to play too much with the lean-burn cruise tables, it's already running 16 or 17:1. Otherwise you may just cook the cats.

My LS1 with 3.46 is producing good go at 2,000rpm and it's solid at 1750 - launch any higher revs than that and it melts tyres, although the VT/VX versions were perhaps light-on for low-end due to tune.

There are improvements to be had, obviously with an edit.

[Stevotski]

I think this article is complete :bs: !!

why the fu*k would you take performance cars and run them on an outback dirt road etc??? they are performance cars not off road vehicles, its quite obvious none of the vehicles were designed for this, it would have made more sense to test these around a race track or down the quarter mile.
Who gives a fu*k about the ground clearance of an xr6 xr8 or SS-V no one buys them for that reason and I can almost guarantee that most owners of these cars would never try and drive them over rocks etc :weirdo:


The roads were normal country gravel roads between towns - guess what - many country councils buy these types of cars and they are driven daily on these types of roads (I know because I do it). The simple fact is that a plastic sump is inexcusable on an australian car. The XR8 A6 should come with a warning to not be used on gravel roads. The rocks they are talking about is the loose stone that congregates between wheel tracks as they get worked into the middle of the road, not some creek crossing in a 4wd adventure park.

The simple matter is that these roads are commonplace across australia, and an australain built car for australian conditions should be able to damn well handle them.

[PepeLePew]

Tuners who would have a better idea of the relative benefits of edit etc on these cars to improve consumption havent waded in here.....

No idea, perhaps its because they're yawning and waiting for the thread to end :)

Both bloody nice cars, no matter what colour your glasses are painted with, and we're lucky to still be enjoying them. Given crystal balls how likely is it the manufacturers would still have produced them? Enjoy and use your mouse clicks to tell Drive to write with some indication they're actually paid to do it and its not a hobby.

Out of curiosities sake can someone lean under a VE auto and give the sump guard a tap and tell us all if it goes TING or THUNK? Plastic or metal I dont think the construction material is particularly relevant, what is relevant is it may not be guarded as well as it ought to be in the Ford.

[stew297]

The roads were normal country gravel roads between towns - guess what - many country councils buy these types of cars and they are driven daily on these types of roads (I know because I do it). The simple fact is that a plastic sump is inexcusable on an australian car. The XR8 A6 should come with a warning to not be used on gravel roads. The rocks they are talking about is the loose stone that congregates between wheel tracks as they get worked into the middle of the road, not some creek crossing in a 4wd adventure park.

The simple matter is that these roads are commonplace across australia, and an australain built car for australian conditions should be able to damn well handle them.

Could not agree more :)

[HSVMAN]

Could not agree more :)

Yep, kinda says it all really.
Didnt think much about the test but they already stated the breakdowns didnt effect the outcome. They could have got more technical and really showed up the Falcon.
Besides what about the "dophin diving"? :rofl: Of course I'm laughing at the description...

[nang3]

so has anyone here bought a VE SS yet?? any of them been to the drags?? I want to know if they are as quick as the figures Holden has released, i hope so because then Ford will have to respond and once again us consumers will be the winners haha

[VYII_R8]

Yep. Off boost, it's a low comp motor in a heavier car with big lumps of metal partially blocking intake and exhaust, which are far from optimally-shaped for equal flow per cylinder when not under boost, which produces a lot less torque at those revs than a n/a six. So to drive it off boost (which means keeping it less than 2,000rpm) a n/a six will get better consumption.

Your above statement is only partially correct. The XR6T blow-off valve is actually configured BACKWARDS to a normal BOV. So when the mainfold in under vacuum (I.e. while cruising) the incoming air to the engine COMPLETELY BYPASSES the turbo and comes straight from the airbox. For this reason the airflow path from airbox through to the engine is exactly the same as the n/a six and ultimately the torque produced is comparable to the n/a engine. Obviously the slightly lower compression ratio and the turbo vanes in the exhaust still have a small impact on economy.

Most people don't know this (BOV configuration) about the Barra turbo engine so I just thought I'd point it out. Even people who own XR6 Turbos seem to think the BOV is on backwards when they have a look at them, but the BOV is fitted exactly as intended from the factory - and that is to be very frugal on fuel under cruise!

[Nobby]

All aussie family sedans should also probably have bullbars fitted standard in case you ever see a kangaroo...

[vecommo]

All aussie family sedans should also probably have bullbars fitted standard in case you ever see a kangaroo...



I have seen plenty of Commodores and Falcons fitted with nudge bars, protective nosecones, shoo-roos etc etc.
Not everyone lives in the city you know.

[SS Enforcer]

When the BA came out a lot of holden guys gave them a big wrap as it was obvious that they were on a winner especially after the AU debacle.

There were even sentiments expressed on here 4 years ago that it would be a sad thing for the ford guys if the BA had issues.

The ls1 crowd had to sit through lots of bagging regarding oil consumption and rattling motors but they didn't on the whole resort to bagging fords for the most part.

I suggest that anyone that wants to express an opinion on the VE go and drive one and you will be very impressed :yup: :yup:

Not all people live in the city and country buyers are entitled to some sort of review of the products in less than ideal conditions.

The BA/ BF is a very good car in all its different formats but I suspect that this time GM is on a big winner with the VE :driving: :driving: :driving:

cheers

[sir.richard]

Hey there,

I am very experienced with the XR6 Turbos, hence my ability to make very specific claims about what they can and cant do. They are a car I know backwards. And I am telling you, having owned two of them over 4 or so years and driven them very hard, that to bend a sway bar like that you have to do something really, really dumb. To give you some idea of how I drive, I go through rear tyres in well under 10,000km and I never do burnouts or similar....I just drive hard. The main reason I commented was that some people in the thread seemed to think the article indicated that the Fords were "weak" or similar and the SS-V better as it didnt break. I think it more likely had to do with the behaviors of the drivers than anything. As I said, I know what they can take....and that kind of damage is very hard to do even if you try.

Isnt it obvious why I posted that post here? I am soon to buy an SS-V and came here to suss out the goss and read the reviews of those lucky enough to already own them. I couldnt help but comment on a silly car review that was mentioned here...expecially when I know from experience that the conclusions some people were drawing from it werent correct.

As I said, stuff the brand - its all about performance. I would be just as likely to write similar on a Ford forum about the SS if the situation were reveresed. People making incorrect conclusions are people making incorrect conclusions. End of story.

Im not into starting flame wars - but I AM interested in intelligent conversation and intelligent arguments on this forum about SS's and also how they perform to their competitors. Just because Im on a Holden focussed forum and someone says something stupid about a competitor doesnt mean I let it slide....

The way to convince me is logic and if you read my post again you will see it IS kind of logical even if you dontlike what you are reading.

As for the XR6T and Typhoon, both are awesome cars. However even without having driven the new SS and SS-V's, I am confident in predicting the SS's will be a serious challenge - to the point that the chassis is very advanced and likely to have the potential to put the XR6T handling to shame and will kick it in a straight line in many situations (but not all due to the torque curve of the T) - and thats no mean feat as the XR6 handles very well indeed. As for the typhoon, it appears it will have the straight line performance advantage over the SS's (but I think really should be compared to the HSV's to be fair)...but as for handling vs the Typhoon, Im undecided until I drive the VE.

Dont confuse me with blatant Ford of Holden fans. Im a lot smarter than that, and a genuine FAST CAR enthusiast, not a Holden or Ford enthusiast. Frankly Id rather be driving an M5 if I had the cash.... :)

Your reply came across a little defensive, and you seem eager to pigeon hole me into the "I hate Holden" camp because of what I wrote.

If you really think my post was that bad, please be specific and point out FACTUAL errors not general assumptions about my motives - which are something you obviously didnt understand despite me explaining them very clearly in my first post.

If I wanted to cause a flame fest, I would have thrown a spanner in the works by pretending to be a Holden ethusiast and bagging he VE...would get a much more interesting effect than pretending to be blatantly Ford biased and slanging off at Holden....

And now Im off to read the next posts....be very interesting to see how people reacted.....





Welcome to LS1 Richard ,thanks for your input, not backward in coming forward in the first post ! But i have a Q -if your really just a sports car enthusiast why is your post simply dedicated to defending the XR6 ? Why would anyone join a Holden Forum to post that ?Just asking the Q.Seriously if your only here to post pro - Falcon commentry or defense ,please you would be wasting your time IMO.Dont fear however there are already many , many MANY here doing that job for you :) I beleive this is already one of the more balanced forums out there , it doesn't require more balance !
I go to the FF board for an alternative view & i come here to read /learn/discuss GM ..ie discussion thereof Holden based material . every VE thread i open i read post after post about XR6T and Typhoon and why they are better than a VE .Cry me a river.Be happy with what you have and please let others do the same. I believe the members here are all big enough and ugly enough to find their way to the turbo Falcon forums should they want to read mostly about that. Sorry mods delete if you desire but i need to get it off my chest :) + i think i speak for a silent majority . We are true enthusiasts that don't require a constant force fed other view !

Gary, you amaze me how you interpret things.

Here I am saying I am impressed enough with the SS-V that Im going to order one soon, BUT I also happen to mention the guys running an off-road testing and breakign 2/3 of the cars must have been doing silly stuff and that a SPORTS car being 100mm higher isnt a good thing...and you interpret that as simple Ford vs Holden bias?

Read my post again and you will see I mentioned about people having emotional rather than logical responses....






This will no doubt just start another endless round of never resolved to and fro-ing between Holden and (the too many) Ford fans on here, but FFS is this a Holden or Ford forum? I thought it was a Holden one and as such come on to read about Holdens and given the fact that it is a Holden forum I expect a little pro Holden bias. Same as if I went to the forum for any other performance car I would expect things to be biased toward them too – that’s only natural.

I am certainly not saying only pro Holden comments from Holden drivers should be allowed and expect a proportion of (hopefully reasonably balanced) posts from the dark side. However, ever since the VE came out there has been a shitload of whining, whinging Ford guys making up every excuse under the sun for why their marque is no longer winning the comparos.

The fact that the performance VEs are in many respects better cars is already widely acknowledged by most car experts, so how about you biased Ford guys just pi$$ off with your whining excuses and let us have our moment in the sun!

The fact that the VE is so good just means that Ford will make their all new model even better, so WE ALL WIN. Many people here have freely acknowledged how good the XR6Ts and Typhoons are compared to previous Commodores so instead of bitching and moaning about unfair comparisons etc just go back to FF please if all you are going to do is whine.

Hopefully Holden guys haven’t inundated FF in the last year or two doing the same whinging and moaning when Ford arguably had the better product with the aforementioned cars, although I guess I’m so sick of reading so many biased Ford posts on here (eg. the VE SS v XR8 v XR6T thread) that a perverse part of me maybe hopes they have been doing that.

Seems to me like the Ford guys are just poor losers……..

Gary

I could not agree with you more.....its taken 3 responses before I finally read something smart - admitting you are a big Holden fan but also being intelligent enough to sit back, look at the big picture, and realise ITS NOT ALL ABOUT ONE BRAND!

Fast cars are good for us all. Stuff who makes them. As you said, even if you are one-eyed towards one particular brand, the other brand upping the ante is good for us all.

(I was starting to get worried everyone here was emotional and biased until I read your post....)



I've been a Holden man since well forever.

The fact that the VE is so good, it makes all the other commodores (including the one I drive) seem pants in comparison should be reason enough for the FORD squad to cheer. Basically it shows that in the last decade up until now Holden have been dragging their arse with 'just good enough' cars.

As the OP said, FORD guys be happy.... the rebuttle will be bigger and better than VE and that's a good thing. Right?

Zzzzzzzz...wake me up if you say something unemotional and intelligent...until then.......



Thanks Gary !:bravo: get it off your chest I posted something similar just a little while ago .I have a lot of time for the many older regular one eyed blue fans here , but the scores of new entrants joining up merely to post tart comments over the last month is wearing very thin -and giving Ford blokes a bad name to boot. Maybe its just been a bad day ...

Hey, a fellow thinker!

Good to read your reply. Thankfully you up the score to 2 smart vs 3 emotional responses, so there is still hope for this site being worth visiting regularly yet. I will be here more often as my SS-v delivery approaches and flies past...

In relation to what you wrote below....

I couldnt agree more about what you mentioned re XR8. They drive more like buses than a car. Its sooooo front heavy (especailly compared to the T which is pretty much the same car otherwise). My mistake - I read the article in full then when posting my post here worked of my shonky memory, and must have thought their comment was dirt focussed.

I agree about the SS design - I cant wait to fang that chassis around - it is seriously interesting what they have done and how stiff it is - has amazing potential.

In relation to the dirt vs tarmac thing, my post focussed on that because before posting I read all/most of the other posts before me, and many of them seemed to think the dirt results were something to a) prove the Ford cars sucked or were weak and b) that 100mm extra ride height thus didnt hit things on the road was a good thing. Both of them I strongly disagree with as logic and facts simply dont agree with those conclusions.


Im sure we will chat again.....






lowriding: If you bothered to read sir.richard's post he clearly states his next ride is an SS-V. Seems a pretty valid reason for joining and contributing to a Holden forum yes? Also, given the fact his has not only owned, but fanged two XR6Ts in recent times, he is a pretty good person to comment on the article in question.

sir.richard: (nice name) Welcome (I'm pretty new myself... SS-V on order etc). Nice first post, I like your style and I like your approach to sports cars. Whilst I've never been inticed to actually buy a Ford, I can appreciate the good ones just the same. If I had the money neither Holden nor Ford would be getting my sports car allowance.

Just a few issues with some of your comments though. You say:

- To be honest, if I were a hard-core Holden enthusiast I wouldnt get too excited about that article and imply that it means the Fords are crap and were "beaten". About the only thing that is positive and worth noting is that the SS-V apparently handles better on dirt to some extent because it recovers from bumps a little quicker due to less rebound.

However the article when referring to the XR8s rebound problems is not talking about dirt at all. It's undulating tarmac which is, let's face it, quite relevant. The review team also make quite a few other interesting comments about the handling of the SS-V vs either Ford. It may well be subjective but it's indication to me at least that the VE design is a good one.

Also, everyone seems to be bent out of shape about testing on dirt, but the majority of the testing was not done on dirt. I agree the relevance of dirt for XR6/8 and SS type cars is low but it's not like the test was done exclusively on dirt. As far as Drive are concerned, the SS-V handles better on tarmac and for what it's worth, dirt.

As others have said, no matter what you buy you'll have fun with it. I'm just glad I'm in the market for a new car right at the perfect time and could get an SS-V.

EDIT: Whoa, seems the few post above were merged from a completely different thread so my post two above is kinda about of context. Anywho whatever.

Great, its now 3 smart vs 3 emotional responses, and from a site mod no less!

Good to hear. if this site is a blatant "only say good things about Holden site" then its not worth visiting.

Holdens are not perfect. Fords are not perfect. But both Holdens and Fords can be great fun - even after acknowledging the bad parts of both.

If you want to read nothing but positive biased crap, read the press releases from EITHER manufacturer. Completely biased, completely ignoring the bad parts of the cars. Its on sites like this we SHOULD be able to find out the real truth.

Anyone need proof? Read some of the latest Wheels and Motor mags. You will see a ton of comments from Holden during their interviews for the VE, where they quite simply sink the boot into the models of Holdens still sold just a few months ago. "Compromised" etc etc. And they are from the same people that 6 months ago would have never said a bad thing about those cars.

How quickly they change their minds when its in their interests to finally mention all the shortcomings of what they have been selling us, because there is a newer model out.



















As I have said before...Anybody can post on here. It doesn't matter what car you drive.
Yes it has been a bad day, I agree there, which I will put peoples attitudes down to.

If you wanted it to be just, "Holden is fantastic" and never hear any adverse comment, wouldn't this place be boring???

I get very annoyed when peoples views on other posters and their opinions are directly linked to what car they drive....admit it, how many of you go and look at what a poster drives? Does that then influence what you about to type? :yup:

motomk

Hey, that makes it 4 vs 3 - the smart people in this forum are now in the lead!




FFS, Yes this is a Holden forum, but last time I checked this was the "General Automotive" section for "General Automotive Related News and Discussions"

That means ALL opinions are welcome so the Holden Fans calm down and welcome people with alternate preferences, and Ford people think about your posts are you really giving your honest opinion or are you just trying to bait the more emotional members. If your posts are just baiting and designed to inflame we don't want you and I encourage the moderators to police the trolls more robustly. For the Ford and other brand members, I really enjoy the posts which not only challange the mind, but help me in researching my next purchasing decision.

[sir.richard]

And then Carby comes along and lowers the standard.....

Carby, if you seriously think that the recent SS (not the new one) kicks an XR6T in most circumstances on the road, you havent got much experience in XR6T's. In fact I have found it very amusing in a T, because its quite rare that an SS driver takes you on. Can you guess why?

Here is a typical scenario for you...cruising along near each other, its on and the pedal goes to the metal and you are probably in the same gear. Now who do you think will pull ahead - a car that has 450/480NM from 2000 revs to near redline, or one that needs to spend the time to drop down a gear to get that kind of torque....

Straight line, it depends more on the driver than the car as they are so closely matched. The car mags show the XR6T is ahead by 0.1 sec 0-100 last time I checked. The main problem with the XR6T is it has so much low down torque that you can smoke them up at less than 2000 revs, making fast take-offs a bit trickier.

Thanksfully the new SS ups the ante and adds a BIG speed difference (to the T, not the Typhoon which will still probably kick the new SS). I am hoping Ford tries to match it and increases boost on the XR6T (because then Holden will hopefully respond with more power...). Sadly the mini-update Ford is doing soon does not appear to be making any exciting changes to the T....more adding bling to the lower end models.

Actually that reminds me of something I noted in the latest Motor - has anyone noticed that no magazines yet havematched the Holden 0-100 figure on a production car? 5.6 seems to be the goer from what I have read so far. Still a good time, but I would definitely prefer the 5.35-5.4 originally mentioned. Holden offered a magnum of champagne to any moto journalist who bettered their times.









Well when you get some bloke like Sir Richard on here who gives an over inflated opinion on his ride it's hard not to take on the Poster sometimes - because the majority of people on this forum are not fools and for him to say his ride flogs SS's and the like should be stated as an opinion not fact.

That is why these road reports are vital - they are done by professional testers so to ADSXR8, FREAKY, VULTURE,VY 2R8 and the new guy with the over inflated opinion on his XR6T ( mate read MOTOR mag, the old VZ flogged the VZ in standing qtr so there's one of your so called performance advantages blown away) The two performance Fords were beaten on the tarmac and on the dirt, you are trying to deflect and make too much of the dirt side of the road test.

Just to remind you of the closing comments "the SS-V is the drivers car" - GAME OVER!!!:lol:

No answer to that one, because like you I deal in facts and I like 50:50, or at MOST 1% extra either way depending on where the engine is located.

The XR6 is like sitting on the tail of an anchor with the big hook part in front of you - where it goes, you are going.

The XR6T....I cant rememeber what its weight distribution is (do you remember?) but I can tell you this much: it is VERY neutral handling, regardless of what its distro is.






hey sir richard. maybe you could tell us on here how the falcon not having a 50:50 weight distro is not a good thing for a more balanced view. :lmao:

Hehe....careful, or someone might think you have perspective ;)

As for sports cars, I am hoping people in an SS thread have some clues on that one. If anyone mentions a Sportivo or similar in that light, I propose we shoot them.





This thread is becoming really tiring. Too much one eyed BS from both sides.

Somebody do us all a favour and close it before we lose faith in this place.

P.S. in defence of Sir.Richard he did state hes owned two XR6T's. So hes speaking from his personal experience, LIKE ALL OF YOU. Well many probably havent even driven a VE but.... No matter which side of the fence you support, your opinions SHOULD be welcome. Im sure he'd be happy to hear rebuttals, thats what its all about. Not just criticizing posts telling him hes one eyed blah blah....

P.P.S. can we please watch our usage of the term 'sports cars'. These are sports versions of family sedans. Im not paranoid about usage of the term, but its being thrown about way too much in this thread. Drive uses the term=good reason not to use it :)

I agree with you. The F6 is a beast - no matter which side of the fence you are on, and a worthy opponent.

As for the XR8 and FPV cars, I understand why they make them, but who the hell would spend hard earned cash on them? I mean seriously...they cant be hard core performance car freaks!

One thing in the XR8/FPV favour though is how high tech their engine is. I mean guys...pushrods? Didnt they have pushrods on horse drawn buggies?

Im not denying its proven technology and clearly the engines can be fun, but hey, I am sure a modern version of a 27 litre chain drive steam engine would be too....






Hardly an overwhelming victory for the SS over the XR6T, but it is over the XR8. Frankly, I don't why Ford/FPV even bother with the XR8/GT(P) - both are poor performing performance cars and drink too much fuel. Nevertheless, a win is a win. It's a shame the manual suffers from driveline shunt but I guess that's the trade off having to run an agricultural type trans to cope with the torque of these motors.

I look forward to reading the comparisons between the F6 and HSV models. No matter which brand you buy, you'll still come out a winner.

Its funny, most people I know who own last-series Holdens who got in my XR6T said they much preferred the interior of the Ford - even a couple of totally biased mates said they had to agree it was nice. Must say I do too, but to be fair I will re-evaluate that after driving the SS-V for a while. Id prefer understated interiors than excessive silver stuff like some of the old spokes on the Holden steering wheels (bling!).

To give you some idea, at 120kmh in 6th gear (manual) in my T, I get 7-7.5L/100km. Its amazing. (but around town where I do most of my driving and drive pretty hard, I go to a shocking level!).

A reasonable real average I am aware of - across many hundreds of XR6T's in a particular fleet, is spot on 14L/100km. That covers all driving conditions (inlcuding towing etc) nation wide.







As a potential buyer i think i'd choose the Falcon XR6T purely because the Holden has now lost any weight advantage it had.

Then when you add in how easy and cheap it is to get mega power out of the falcon T it's a win again.

Also in the falcon you can cruise along the freeway or in town getting 6 cyl fuel consumption if you wish.... just drive it off boost.

6 Litre 1800kg v8... what were holden thinking.

Sure the holden won... but this is a comparison between stock cars... and how many of us leave them stock ?

The main postives for the Holden would be the interior and exterior asthetics...

Ford really need to work on their interiors... not as bad as a WRX/STi... but still a bit povo.


When will people learn that this statement is quite simply not true? It's along the same lines as believing that a 5.4 litre V8 is physically smaller than a 6.0 litre V8 simply because of the capacity difference.

It is true.

At most freeway crising speeds, the gearing is set so that you are around 100 rpm under boost speed in top gear at 100-120 (depends on which year you have). Boost kicks in pretty much spot on 2000 revs.

Just under 2000 revs, the car is making reasonable torque and power but not using the turbos at all. It is effectively a 4 litre 6 cylinder.

As soon as you hit 2000 revs with some load on the engine, turbo spools up, the intake charge is pressurised, and its exactly the same as having a larger capacity engine. You can either have a larger engine, or you can have a smaller engine which has its fuel/air force fed to it so it holds the same amount of air/fuel mix as a larger engine.

With big engines you dont have that ability, as it doesnt have a force fed induction. If you have a 6 litre, you always are running like a 6 litre. Compare to an XR6T: you have a 4 litre, and it runs like a 4 litre off boost, but runs closer to a 6 litre when on boost.

Im not sure if I understood your comment - didnt make sense to me. If I am off base, please explain!

[Fnomna]

has anyone noticed that no magazines yet havematched the Holden 0-100 figure on a production car? 5.6 seems to be the goer from what I have read so far. Still a good time, but I would definitely prefer the 5.35-5.4 originally mentioned. Holden offered a magnum of champagne to any moto journalist who bettered their times.

Maybe get your hands on the September MOTOR and you can read they got a 5.35 and 13.63@170.7.
The magnum was for beating HSV times.

[JimmyXR6T04]

When will people learn that this statement is quite simply not true? It's along the same lines as believing that a 5.4 litre V8 is physically smaller than a 6.0 litre V8 simply because of the capacity difference.

dude, you got no idea. when cruising around and not flogging the car, its really good on fuel. Usually average around 12.5L around town.. and under 10L on the highway. Now, when i use boost, its a different story!! By your logic, the car uses the same amount of fuel on and off boost. Not only that, the boost is electronically controlled, so using part throttle means you can drive up to 3000-3500rpm without using a single pound of boost. For a car with so much go, its great on fuel if you don't wish to belt it.

its a really big misconception that these cars build boost from 2000rpm, and therefore if you hit 2000rpm you'll use boost. Thats not true. They CAN build boost from 2000rpm, but only when you put the foot flat or 3/4 throttle. Normal driving will not use boost unless its under load, like up a hill. Cruising in 5th at around 120-130km/h can be done at 3000rpm without boost.

Hope that clears it up for some you guys here. boost is NOT related to RPM unless smashing the go pedal.

[EfiJy]

If you really think my post was that bad, please be specific and point out FACTUAL errors not general assumptions about my motives - which are something you obviously didnt understand despite me explaining them very clearly in my first post.


ummm yes your post was bad in sections.

surprisingly

you came across indicating why the increased ride height of ss was baaaad yet you havent driven it?

you also overlooked the fact that the ves weight distro would give it a huge advantage over the xr6t and typhoon.

given you are an enthusiast im surprised you havent driven VE before choosing to make comment mainly about the the pros of the xr6t/typhoon.

you also make some assumptions about how it would be next to impossible for drive to damage the falcons undercarriage. maybe you were the same test pilot who developed the bulletproof ap clutch for the ba typhoon that fpv claimed was due to driver abuse? :lol:


One thing in the XR8/FPV favour though is how high tech their engine is. I mean guys...pushrods? Didnt they have pushrods on horse drawn buggies?


:rofl:

pushrod hsv waste a phoon? never!

why cant motoring press crack 14s for phoon? yet low 13s are common for hsvs?

you come across as a level headed type but that comment just shows your ignorance. sorry you dont fool me. :flip2:

[Danv8]

And then Carby comes along and lowers the standard.....


One thing in the XR8/FPV favour though is how high tech their engine is. I mean guys...pushrods? Didnt they have pushrods on horse drawn buggies?




Comments like this makes me laugh with the ignorance I am amazed how many people think that OHC design is actually newer than OHV engines when they are as old as each other.

And yet the Falcon V8 has its all glitz and glamor of quad cams etc etc and yet its still average at best and kills the front end handling of the falcons because of its weight. When people have to bring up valve train as an excuse for an argument pretty much means to me that you have run out of things to argue about.

[ExAreSix]

And yet the Falcon V8 has its all glitz and glamor of quad cams etc etc and yet its still average at best and kills the front end handling of the falcons because of its weight. When people have to bring up valve train as an excuse for an argument pretty much means to me that you have run out of things to argue about.

Average at best??
Throw a tune into and LS1 and a BOSS 260, and compare.
LS1, tune only, 230rwkw pretty typical?
Boss 260, tune only, 260rwkw... You need to throw an exhaust, CAI, head/cam at an LS1 to see that power, with a 300cc advantage.

And BOSS 290 V LS2 297 run same rwkw, stock.

Having said that, peak power is not everything... And both engines excel in their own way. ;)

But what the BOSS gives away in cubes, they make it up with 'tech'.

Don't assume the BOSS is rubbish because it resides in an obese car, and has a choking tune from factory.
These motor's are delivering some great power with basic bolt ons and tune.
And the aluminium blocks for the BOSS are starting to filter in from the states also.

Would I buy an XR8 or GT? Not a chance.
Would I buy a BOSS motor to throw in a Cobra replica? Hell yes

[Danv8]

Average at best??
Throw a tune into and LS1 and a BOSS 260, and compare.
LS1, tune only, 230rwkw pretty typical?
Boss 260, tune only, 260rwkw... You need to throw an exhaust, CAI, head/cam at an LS1 to see that power, with a 300cc advantage.

And BOSS 290 V LS2 297 run same rwkw, stock.

Having said that, peak power is not everything... And both engines excel in their own way. ;)

But what the BOSS gives away in cubes, they make it up with 'tech'.

Don't assume the BOSS is rubbish because it resides in an obese car, and has a choking tune from factory.
These motor's are delivering some great power with basic bolt ons and tune.
And the aluminium blocks for the BOSS are starting to filter in from the states also.

Would I buy an XR8 or GT? Not a chance.
Would I buy a BOSS motor to throw in a Cobra replica? Hell yes

If you say so.
I would much rather a little windsor that was stroked to 5.6 litres.
After driving the Typhoon the Boss V8 in the Falcons just failed to impress me apart from the exhaust note. Also I am not calling the Falcon V8 rubbish and I know it has great potential just it wont win me over like a small block Chev or Ford V8 (winsdor or cleveland).

[vecommo]

Comments like this makes me laugh with the ignorance I am amazed how many people think that OHC design is actually newer than OHV engines when they are as old as each other.

And yet the Falcon V8 has its all glitz and glamor of quad cams etc etc and yet its still average at best and kills the front end handling of the falcons because of its weight. When people have to bring up valve train as an excuse for an argument pretty much means to me that you have run out of things to argue about.

Very well said Danv8.

I remember back a few years ago when the BA was launched there was so much hype about the Boss 260 and it's quad cams etc..
So when I finally had the opportunity to drive one, I jumped into the car enthusiastically....after reading all the hype I thought it was going to be a ball tearer.
Well it wasn't to be. I came away so disappointed at the lack of both top and bottom end urge that it has tarnished my views of this engine forever.
I actually suggested that it should be renamed the Boss 160, as it felt slower to me than a 304 EFI V8.

[Vulture]

Overhead cams have been around since 1912....so overhead cams in the Fords are hardly a tech tour de force.
Technology for technology's sake is a crap argument. What is the point of quad cams in the Fords when an OHV LSx not only produces better power throughout the rev range but has a higher rpm ceiling as well? The LSx engines are also far more compact. Sorry but credit where it is due - the LSx engines are quite simply better in any way you care to mention except some notion of perceived superior technology. Hell they even use less fuel.

[EfiJy]

Average at best??
Throw a tune into and LS1 and a BOSS 260, and compare.
LS1, tune only, 230rwkw pretty typical?
Boss 260, tune only, 260rwkw... You need to throw an exhaust, CAI, head/cam at an LS1 to see that power, with a 300cc advantage.

And BOSS 290 V LS2 297 run same rwkw, stock.

Having said that, peak power is not everything... And both engines excel in their own way. ;)

But what the BOSS gives away in cubes, they make it up with 'tech'.

Don't assume the BOSS is rubbish because it resides in an obese car, and has a choking tune from factory.
These motor's are delivering some great power with basic bolt ons and tune.
And the aluminium blocks for the BOSS are starting to filter in from the states also.

Would I buy an XR8 or GT? Not a chance.
Would I buy a BOSS motor to throw in a Cobra replica? Hell yes

the ve v8 actually weighs more than the boss now. youre right about the boss not being rubbish. its actually a very very good boat anchor.

just shows how ignorant you want to be.

[vecommo]

the ve v8 actually weighs more than the boss now.
Are you talking about the cars or the acutal engines themselves?


youre right about the boss not being rubbish. its actually a very very good boat anchor.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Nobby]

All aussie family sedans should also probably have bullbars fitted standard in case you ever see a kangaroo...

Erm, what did the moderators do to this post, I cant see any changes.

[vecommo]

Erm, what did the moderators do to this post, I cant see any changes.


You must have a very short memory. You directed an insult to other forum members.

[ExAreSix]

just shows how ignorant you want to be.

I'm the ignorant one? Yeah, righto mate. :nopity:


If you say so.
I would much rather a little windsor that was stroked to 5.6 litres.
After driving the Typhoon the Boss V8 in the Falcons just failed to impress me apart from the exhaust note. Also I am not calling the Falcon V8 rubbish and I know it has great potential just it wont win me over like a small block Chev or Ford V8 (winsdor or cleveland).

You know what, I agree. My post should read:

"Would I buy a BOSS motor to throw in a Cobra replica? Hell yes. (But not before a T3 250kw stroked windsor)"

:bravo:

[SS Enforcer]

Never the twain shall meet :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: ..

It's good to see such an old tradition being played out after so many years


Islam VS Christianity

Hadfields VS M'coys

Ford Vs Holden




VE SS-V ...... PCOTY belonga to us :flip2:

[nang3]

Never the twain shall meet :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: ..

It's good to see such an old tradition being played out after so many years


Islam VS Christianity

Hadfields VS M'coys

Ford Vs Holden




VE SS-V ...... PCOTY belonga to us :flip2:

haha mate i should hope the VE will win the PCOTY being brand new etc.. as much as i'd love the blown Ford 6's to dominate like the aussie section of PCOTY, i cant really see the latest and greatest $1,000,000,000 worth of holdens engineering get beaten by ~4yr old tech from Ford ...

[Nobby]

You must have a very short memory. You directed an insult to other forum members.

I didn't realise anybody on Earth could be offended by the word 'nong'.