BMW 335ci - yes it is THAT good

[VZSS250]

Managed to get a test drive in a BMW 335ci coupe with the twin turbo in-line 6 on the weekend and was utterly blown away by how amazing this car is. At $130k driveaway, this car is not cheap, but the styling and performance is uncompromised by the ridiciculous family-oriented dynamics that we have to put up with in our V8 Commodores (i.e. size, weight, four door styling, quiet exhaust note).

The coupe looks extraordinary from the exterior, making the VE seem garish for having succumb to all the current fashions such as the flared wheel arches and flat door panels. The car sits low, making me ask the salesman if it had been lowered. It hadn't. Sexyness is standard in a 3 series coupe apparently.

Interior wise the higher spec VE's are just as good, but the bimmer offers three dash/door panel colours, 6 leather colours and six highlight colours, meaing you can have the interior the way you like it. This is an area where BMW shows how different it is to the budget car makers of the world. And the optional stereo makes the Bose in my Caprice sound like a tinny portable radio.

Fire up the motor and you dont get the smooth, quiet six cylinder you're expecting. The six-potter fires abruptly and settles to a lumpy idle, complete with a deep burbling note. Move away and you realise the motor is feral. In normal driving it behaves, staying quiet and reasonably refined, though not so much as Holden's 6.0 litre. Stomp on the throttle, and it rips through the rev range ferociously, delivering a high pitched and surprisingly coarse exhaust note. The turbo's never make themselves known...no turbo whistle and no drastic spike in the power delivery. Just raw power. I was surprised by the flat power delivery (and maybe, deep down a little disappointed). At this point you're thinking about selling your organs to get this car in your garage.

Admittedly a VE SS is just as powerful, but the SS insulates your from the motor the way a family car should, whereas in the bimmer the motor is always there, communicating, making its presence.

While the motor, is surprisingly coarse (though in a good way), the drivetrain is amazingly good. Where the Holden A6 fumbles, kicks, lurches and hunts, the BMW auto makes better decisions than you would if you were driving a manual. It doesn't just claim to adapt to your driving style, it actually does it, immediately and obviously. The manual mode is quick, even on the 1-2 change.

The handling is amazing. This car does not have to cart around a missus and two kids. So there's minimal bodyroll, imperceptible understeer (not quite neutral) and still has good ride.

Getting back in my Caprice, I quickly appreciated the interior space and comfort, but I immediately noticed the massive steering wheel. And then there's the bodyroll...geez there's a lot of that in a Caprice. Ofcourse the 6.0 litre is a gem so no complaints there.

Should I put a deposit on this beast?

[spank]

one of my clients has had his one (in silver) for about a month now and he absolutely is in love with it and he traded in is 2003 330 coupe in on it and says the improvements are amazing, i havent been in it but when he fires it up it sounds like top fuel sewing machine, funny you mention how low it is, his wife who has a 2 week old ml430 merc hates it because it makes her car sick, but she is ok in my grange on the 77klm drive from their home to the airport but 10 min in the bm and she's done, and she can only put it down to how low it is, i might take her for a drive in my gto and see if that bothers her then we will know if its just how low the bm is or if its something else about the car that makes her feel that way, she was ok in the 330 tho

[VY2 LS1]

We saw all the tricky stuff at the Classic Adelaide.

Of all the cars the ones I liked best were the 6.3L NA Mercedes Benz. Stunning looking and just monster V8 sound.
The Porsches and BMW just didn't compare to the Benz. The 6.3L Mercedes is in a totally different class above all the others. The Aston Martin was nice too. The VE GTS impressed also.

VY2 LS1

[Gonadman2]

Sounds like you need an exhaust and some swaybars...

You have to ask yourself whether the bimmer is twice as good as the VE I suppose, based on price. 335Ci sounds like a nice rig though!

[jerrel]

We saw all the tricky stuff at the Classic Adelaide.

Of all the cars the ones I liked best were the 6.3L NA Mercedes Benz. Stunning looking and just monster V8 sound.
The Porsches and BMW just didn't compare to the Benz. The 6.3L Mercedes is in a totally different class above all the others. The Aston Martin was nice too. The VE GTS impressed also.

VY2 LS1

arent the 6.3l mb's a v12?

[Danv8]

For $135 large ones it would want to be good.

But then again I took a Lexus GS430 for a drive and that was $137 large worth and it was puss.

335i sedan would be really nice but I aint gonna spend that amount for a car really. :)


arent the 6.3l mb's a v12?

Nope they are V8's.

[tuff304]

:worthless:

[Curtis-R]

Personally for that sort of money I would be stepping into a second hand (current shape) M3 :)

I have seen one on these 335's on the showroom floor and on the road. They do sit very nicely and look pretty sweet! Not sure if you could compare it to a VE though..

[spank]

turn the boost up 3psi and bye bye m3 :D

[CarlFST60L]

They certainly sounds the money, great write up :)

Personally, i would take a GTS, spend $30K or so on it to creat a nice, custom car that could be a one off, and save $30K in the process... But were all diffrent :driving:

[spank]

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw.bmp
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw1.bmp
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw2.bmp

[ADSXR8]

Personally, i would take a GTS, spend $30K or so on it to creat a nice, custom car that could be a one off, and save $30K in the process... But were all diffrent :driving:

Considering you probably haven't driven either, just goes to show your brand loyality and you not necessarily buying the better car IYO.

Anyways, good write up.

[monaroCountry1]

Considering you probably haven't driven either, just goes to show your brand loyality and you not necessarily buying the better car IYO.

Anyways, good write up.

The VE GTS is already fast enough...........with that extra 30k in mod money I dont think your humble 335ci TT would come close in terms of fun factor, especially when its up against a HC TT LS2.

[Nobby]

I cant say I'm quite sold on the looks of the coupe, I'd prefer the sedan with one of the ballsy motors.

[Holden Man]

I still think the 5 series looks better. Nice car though

225kw (306hp) @ 5800rpm
400nm @ 1300rpm
1540kg

0-100 > 5.1secs
0-160 > 11.9secs
0-200 > 18.7secs
1/4 Mile > 13.6secs
(from Auto Zeitung)


See one getting canned (tested) here >

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F69F9nT9Hg4

[Boom]

That clip reminds me of me and my new favourite bit of road. :driving:

[jimbo14]

It really sounds like you should go for it mate. But before you do, maybe you should go test drive a Porsche Cayman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaDcvfFZaYA

[CarlFST60L]

Considering you probably haven't driven either, just goes to show your brand loyality and you not necessarily buying the better car IYO.

Whats with the attitude? Is this typical of one eyed supporters?

here is my car, just so you know im talking out my butt

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Carl/FST60L_001.jpg

And yes, it is IMO, thats what this forum is for, sharing ideas and thoughts...

[Danv8]

Whats with the attitude? Is this typical of one eyed supporters?

here is my car, just so you know im talking out my butt

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Carl/FST60L_001.jpg



Nice beast. :-)

[OPPYLOCK]

Love the 335. Great idea by BMW and I'm sure it will become a cult car in Europe with the tunability of a TT setup. May even outshine the new V8 M3.

[Belzey]

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw2.bmp


I am not really liking the look of it.. I tell you what BMW I love though lol the 6series do yourself a favour and check that baby out ;)

[SchrgdVSV6]

Should I put a deposit on this beast?
Very nice review VZSS250! :thumbsup: Its good to see manufacturers still willing to make turbo 6, which again and again dispell the myth that they are laggy, torqueless (not fun to drive) engines. ;)

Although Im surprised no-one has accused you of being a jounalist/sympathiser, from a certain media publication, who has hijacked VZSS250's username! :lmao: :hide:

Test drive as many cars as you can in your price range (and dont forget to post it). Best of luck with your purchasing decision. :)

[JohnS]

:worthless:

If you want to know what a BMW 335ci looks like try google. Why should people bust their butts to provide you with pics when you can get them with a few mouse clicks???

[GUN V8]

If i had $130k to shell out for a BMW, I would be thinking about an E46 M3 Manual as well. A low kilometre second handie

[vyssbeast]

It really sounds like you should go for it mate. But before you do, maybe you should go test drive a Porsche Cayman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaDcvfFZaYA

SLOW ... essentially anything less than a carrera is slow...

so boxter/S and cayman/S ... whipped by a bolt on LS1 ...

its the OMEGA of porches ... and everyone knows it

[Capt.LS2]

SLOW ... essentially anything less than a carrera is slow...

so boxter/S and cayman/S ... whipped by a bolt on LS1 ...

its the OMEGA of porches ... and everyone knows it

Ahhh but the handling of the Cayman is apparently outstanding....quicker than a Carrera around the track from what I remember reading.

[2001 ITR]

A guy at work is getting one (I am getting his old E39 as a tow car). He has had BMW’s 3 series (including M3’s) for ages, the 5 series was a bit of a departure for him - 4 doors, comfort suspension, auto-only (except for the M5). He usually considered turbos as a “cheats” way of improving performance. Now he has driven an ordered a TT coupe and he can’t wait to get behind the wheel – no electric steering, no I-drive, manual. He is really excited and the 3 series TT will be a great car for him.

[OPPYLOCK]

SLOW ... essentially anything less than a carrera is slow...

so boxter/S and cayman/S ... whipped by a bolt on LS1 ...

its the OMEGA of porches ... and everyone knows it

An Omega that can lap the ring in a tad over 8 mins.
I'd love to watch you try and achieve that in a bolton LS1:lmao:

[VZSS250]

Im surprised no-one has accused you of being a jounalist/sympathiser, from a certain media publication, who has hijacked VZSS250's username! :lmao: :hide:



LOL my typos and bad grammar would make me a crap motoring journo but I just wanted to let everyone know about my experience and my thoughts on this amazing car, especially given that I have driven so many V8 Commodores, including two GenIIIs and now the 6.0 litre.

There's no doubt V8 Commodores offer great performance, style and comfort for the money, but beyond the $90k mark there's still good value cars to experience and I wanted to show one example of where BMW is capable of delivering a car that is more expensive than a GTS, but is still a good buy.

Sure a 5 Series BMW does not look to be that much better than a 6.0 litre Calais-V. Thats why a 5 series doesn't make sense at the asking price, to me at least. But Holden will never offer a 3-series sized coupe with serious poke (Torana TT coupe? probably not), and that's what makes the BMW 335Ci such a great buy. BMW is willing to make cars that fill small niches in the car market, and for car nuts that means BMWs are on the top of their must have list.

[SchrgdVSV6]

LOL my typos and bad grammar would make me a crap motoring journo
Aww cmon, I thought your review was very well written :)


But Holden will never offer a 3-series sized coupe with serious poke (Torana TT coupe? probably not), and that's what makes the BMW 335Ci such a great buy. BMW is willing to make cars that fill small niches in the car market
Mid sized sedans with (turbo) poke are rare these days. Holden still dont want to enter this section of the market. Their loss I guess (and ours), as they still havent learnt from Ford that V8 owners usually stay V8 owners, regardless of having a turbo 6 in the lineup (and we are talking a mid sized niche car anyway).

Oh, did I mention that for a measily $30-35K more (over the 335) you can sit yourself in a new Audi RS4? :drool:

[Gonadman2]

Mid sized sedans with (turbo) poke are rare these days.

Oh, did I mention that for a measily $30-35K more (over the 335) you can sit yourself in a new Audi RS4? :drool:

Liberty GT? 2.5L Turbo 4... 0-100km/h in around 6 secs, and only $55k. Throw $15k at a Forged motor, and bigger turbo and you would have a great sleeper...

[ADSXR8]

Whats with the attitude? Is this typical of one eyed supporters?

here is my car, just so you know im talking out my butt

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Carl/FST60L_001.jpg

And yes, it is IMO, thats what this forum is for, sharing ideas and thoughts...

I didn’t see any attitude in my post, it was quite clear to me it was a statement. I struggle with the concept to have an opinion without trying both, you clearly don’t.

Don’t be so sensitive

[vyssbeast]

Ahhh but the handling of the Cayman is apparently outstanding....quicker than a Carrera around the track from what I remember reading.

obviously in the handling department the cayman wins. But in a straight line ... i still put my money on a bolton LS1 ... ive had a few runs with a mate of mine that drives a boxter. Not gonna bother again, he had no chance

[Demon 8]

You all do realise we are talking about cars that cost $135K? which doesn't include insurance, taxes & rego etc. I doubt more than 5% of you on here could afford one...

These cars are MUCH cheaper in Europe and the USA, BMW and MERC must be laughing their @rses off when they see these cars being bought here, for about 3 times their value......

[nang3]

^^ yeh it makes me sick when i see yanks driving SL55's etc that over here are 300-400k and costs them like 100 or something... so unfair !!!! bloody inefficient domestic manufacturers and government protection policy !!

[V-Car]

Can someone explain to me why they are $80k in the UK, but $130k here?

[German Statesman]

My next BMW will be an E38 SWB 740i (about '95-'96 model), which I'll put the M5 manual box into and a side-mount blower.

They are 2000 pounds in England (about AUD$6000), and absolutely gorgeous design and quality.

I was a sceptic, but they really are sheer driving pleasure, the old Bimmers.

Cheers

JOHN

[CarlFST60L]

I struggle with the concept to have an opinion without trying both, you clearly don’t.

Don’t be so sensitive

You sound like my dad :lmao:

True, i havnt driven that particual BMW, neither have 99.9% of people on this forum

[Febs]

Having spent a weekend in an (almost) base model 320d, I can only imagine how awesome the 335i is. This little 4door runabout had fantastic brakes, good handling, a (very) decent top speed*...and yet apart from a few optional extras (iDrive/satnav), it was pretty much a base model.

BUT....geez it's fugly! I know styling is subjective, but I always considered the E46 "classically beautiful" (both 4 door and coupé). ie: Not just a good looker, but something that will continue to look good for a long, long time. Then Bangle just f*cked up the whole line IMO - especially the E90 Coupé.

(For those wondering where I got a chance to really test out the "little BMW that could"... guess where? (http://tinyurl.com/shxnk) ;))

Cheers ,
- Febs.

*Proof (http://tinyurl.com/trqy5) :D

[SchrgdVSV6]

Can someone explain to me why they are $80k in the UK, but $130k here?
Luxury car Tax (25%) + GST (10%) + importing costs (shipping etc). It all adds up and someone has to cover it... ie) the consumer.

The govt will always ensure that imported cars cost enough (too much) and give handouts to the local manufacturers to prevent the domestic market from going belly up.

Still, imagine getting a brand new imported GTO from the US for $45K! Or a brand new 997 Carrera for less than $100K! :D

[Marco]

Luxury car Tax (25%) + GST (10%) + importing costs (shipping etc). It all adds up and someone has to cover it... ie) the consumer.

The govt will always ensure that imported cars cost enough (too much) and give handouts to the local manufacturers to prevent the domestic market from going belly up.


Most imported cars are in the same price range as your locally made products, so it's got very little to do with the Government taxing imported cars to keep local carmaking viable. There are, after all, very very few local cars that are expensive enough to compete with the imported cars that cop the 25% luxury car tax.

Even if there was no luxury car tax, a 5 series still wouldn't cost the same as a Commodore.

Personally, I have to say that I used to like BMWs but just about everything they've done since 2000 or so has completely failed to impress me. In fact, at the moment I don't think there's any high-priced luxury car that's impressed me enough to want to own one. Each and every one of them has something wrong with them that makes me think they aren't worth the extra money over a more mainstream product.

[Martin_D]

My partner in ls1turbo.com.au has driven both the VE (he half owns the Gen-TT Intercooled Twin Turbo car) and the 335i twin turbo extensively, and came to some interesting conclusions -

BMW 335 has far inferior steering due to a combination of servotronic assistance and hideous run flat tyres
BMW 335 looked to have about the same interior build quality as a VE
BMW 335 didnt have anywhere near the power or torque of the twin turbo VE and would be more lineball with a dead stock car
BMW 335 goes ok, but is far from an inspirational sports car
BMW 335 has a much better shift/clutch action than a VE

and thats coming from a guy that cares not much for BMWs or Holdens in any great capacity, so its fairly impartial :cool:

[SchrgdVSV6]

Most imported cars are in the same price range as your locally made products, so it's got very little to do with the Government taxing imported cars to keep local carmaking viable.
Youre right, in the $15-$40K there isnt anything in it.


There are, after all, very very few local cars that are expensive enough to compete with the imported cars that cop the 25% luxury car tax.
LCT comes into play when the car costs $57K or over, and there are enough local models in that range (Calais, Stato, HSVs, FPV, etc). The threshold was lower in the past too.


Even if there was no luxury car tax, a 5 series still wouldn't cost the same as a Commodore.
No the 5 series wouldnt be as cheap as a base Commodore, but neither is a VE Calais ;) Without LCT it means some of the Euro alternatives become more affordable and maybe a viable option to the average forum member. Just for comparison, the 5 series sells for $46K ($60K AUS) in the US. Anyways, its fun to dream of the possibilties... :)


BMW 335 didnt have anywhere near the power or torque of the twin turbo VE and would be more lineball with a dead stock car
I would be worried if a 350rwkw car didnt out accelerate one that prob makes only 180rwkw ;)

[monaroCountry1]

. Just for comparison, the 5 series sells for $46K ($60K AUS) in the US. Anyways, its fun to dream of the possibilties...

And how much are the 400hp Pontiac GTO's (our monaros) in America?

[seldo]

Over the years I've either owned or had the exclusive use of (company cars) pretty much every "good" car sold in this country. (I know some will sneer but there aren't many I've missed). It never ceases to amaze me what a sensational job the local importers have done in brain-washing the locals (us) into believing that the "imported" cars are far better than our local products. Bullshit! There is nothing wrong with our locally produced cars like Holden and Ford. On the world stage they can stand up and be proud to be counted as viable world-class cars, because they really are. One of the by-products of the importers' brain-washing is that we, as consumers, have become pretty smart and demanding in our cars, and, as a result, the local Falcon and Commodore are nothing to be ashamed of - they are damned good cars no matter what you stack them up against.....especially if you factor price into the equation.
BMW and Mercedes make some damn good cars.....but are they twice as good as our locals......don't think so.....especially if you consider the absolute litany of disasters as described to me last week by a mate who's had a succession of BMs and Benzs...

[VZSS250]

Over the years I've either owned or had the exclusive use of (company cars) pretty much every "good" car sold in this country. (I know some will sneer but there aren't many I've missed). It never ceases to amaze me what a sensational job the local importers have done in brain-washing the locals (us) into believing that the "imported" cars are far better than our local products. Bullshit! There is nothing wrong with our locally produced cars like Holden and Ford. On the world stage they can stand up and be proud to be counted as viable world-class cars, because they really are. One of the by-products of the importers' brain-washing is that we, as consumers, have become pretty smart and demanding in our cars, and, as a result, the local Falcon and Commodore are nothing to be ashamed of - they are damned good cars no matter what you stack them up against.....especially if you factor price into the equation.
BMW and Mercedes make some damn good cars.....but are they twice as good as our locals......don't think so.....especially if you consider the absolute litany of disasters as described to me last week by a mate who's had a succession of BMs and Benzs...

I agree the Commodore and Falcon are world class cars and as long as a LARGE V8 sedan suits your purposes (and this layout has suited me perfectly for the last 7 years) you should not be shopping elsewhere given price considerations.

But BMW/Mercedes offer a more exciting range of cars. They don't fiddle around with multiple versions of the same basic V8 sedan layout to deliver performance to their customers. Instead they provide genuine, uncompromised high performance motoring using completely different engines and body styles thoughout their range. The fact they are able to deliver such a variety of high performance cars makes BMW and Mercedes superior brands in my opinion.

[Swordie]

Managed to get a test drive in a BMW 335ci coupe with the twin turbo in-line 6 on the weekend and was utterly blown away by how amazing this car is. At $130k driveaway, this car is not cheap, but the styling and performance is uncompromised by the ridiciculous family-oriented dynamics that we have to put up with in our V8 Commodores (i.e. size, weight, four door styling, quiet exhaust note).

The coupe looks extraordinary from the exterior, making the VE seem garish for having succumb to all the current fashions such as the flared wheel arches and flat door panels. The car sits low, making me ask the salesman if it had been lowered. It hadn't. Sexyness is standard in a 3 series coupe apparently.

Interior wise the higher spec VE's are just as good, but the bimmer offers three dash/door panel colours, 6 leather colours and six highlight colours, meaing you can have the interior the way you like it. This is an area where BMW shows how different it is to the budget car makers of the world. And the optional stereo makes the Bose in my Caprice sound like a tinny portable radio.

Fire up the motor and you dont get the smooth, quiet six cylinder you're expecting. The six-potter fires abruptly and settles to a lumpy idle, complete with a deep burbling note. Move away and you realise the motor is feral. In normal driving it behaves, staying quiet and reasonably refined, though not so much as Holden's 6.0 litre. Stomp on the throttle, and it rips through the rev range ferociously, delivering a high pitched and surprisingly coarse exhaust note. The turbo's never make themselves known...no turbo whistle and no drastic spike in the power delivery. Just raw power. I was surprised by the flat power delivery (and maybe, deep down a little disappointed). At this point you're thinking about selling your organs to get this car in your garage.

Admittedly a VE SS is just as powerful, but the SS insulates your from the motor the way a family car should, whereas in the bimmer the motor is always there, communicating, making its presence.

While the motor, is surprisingly coarse (though in a good way), the drivetrain is amazingly good. Where the Holden A6 fumbles, kicks, lurches and hunts, the BMW auto makes better decisions than you would if you were driving a manual. It doesn't just claim to adapt to your driving style, it actually does it, immediately and obviously. The manual mode is quick, even on the 1-2 change.

The handling is amazing. This car does not have to cart around a missus and two kids. So there's minimal bodyroll, imperceptible understeer (not quite neutral) and still has good ride.

Getting back in my Caprice, I quickly appreciated the interior space and comfort, but I immediately noticed the massive steering wheel. And then there's the bodyroll...geez there's a lot of that in a Caprice. Ofcourse the 6.0 litre is a gem so no complaints there.

Should I put a deposit on this beast?

Have you considered a second-hand Porsche?

[ADSXR8]

BMW 335 looked to have about the same interior build quality as a VE

From what I've heard its not so much an improvement from the local product, but a massive decline from BMW. I am unsure about the 335TT, but the new range 3 series are now built in South Africa (so much for prestige German manufacturing).

[chops]

My partner in ls1turbo.com.au.... ....came to some interesting conclusions -

.....BMW 335 goes ok, but is far from an inspirational sports car....

Turbo Porsches and Lamborghinis will do that to you though!

[German Statesman]

Power to weight ratio has always been a MB/BMW feature, basically big engines in small cars.

Take the 3 series for example - its Camira sized, yet you've always been able to get a six cylinder as an option. BMW discovered this by accident in 1975 when they inserted the 2 litre straight six into the 318 body to overcome power sapping US emissions and suddenly had a rocket on their hands.

It was purely coincidental that it was one of the sweetest 6 cyls ever developed, and when the twin Zenith carb option from the later 5 & 7 series was put on the smaller stroke 2 litre engine, you had a little commuter that would hand a Corvette its arse on a plate and was a delight to drive with a high degree of build quality and safety design.

Having said that, Seldo is right - Aussies get so much car for their money and they are damn good cars for that coin.

Cheers

JOHN

[Danv8]

From what I've heard its not so much an improvement from the local product, but a massive decline from BMW. I am unsure about the 335TT, but the new range 3 series are now built in South Africa (so much for prestige German manufacturing).


Last time I sat in a new bimmer I did find the interior is no longer built with solid sturdy plastics and leather. Instead everything inside has very light and cheap feeling plastic. Oh and the I-drive too in the other BMW's what on earth are they thinking with that complicated piece of gear. You would need to get a pilots licence for it.

I guess they are taking advantage of the propeller symbol on the front.

Although I do like BMW's they are nice but they are not as nice as they use to be. Even mercedes benz has gone down hill in the interior.

Shame as well.

[German Statesman]

All 3 series have been built in South Africa since the E36 model in '92.

The X5 is made in South Carolina, the X3 is made by an Austrian firm for BMW, the 5 series are made in South Africa and Germany (also soon to be China I believe) and the 7 series are made in Germany.

[SchrgdVSV6]

And how much are the 400hp Pontiac GTO's (our monaros) in America?
The retail is $33K (US) Thats about $43-44K AUS depending on the exchange rate. Haggle with the dealer and walk away with it for under $40K AUS.


btw - There is nothing wrong with the local products (they keep getting better and better)... like someone previously mentioned, its just that there is more variety (engine/chassis combos) with the other euro manufacturers. Holden and Ford have the performance large car segment in the bag and are playing in the performance small car sector as well (Turbo Astra, XR5), but (without sounding like a broken record) what about the mid sized stuff?

[MrMaad]

German Taxis, sorry but if you've ever worked on one you'll never own one.

[German Statesman]

German Taxis, sorry but if you've ever worked on one you'll never own one.

Have done - replaced the engine mounts on my 740iL (easier than a V-series Commodore), replaced both rear window regulators/motors (bastard of a job with dual pane glass), did numerous services including the Inspection 2 (major), and front shock replacements. I was a bit wary everytime I worked on it, but it never intimidated me and I enjoyed the experience.

Funny you should say German Taxi - I have an image of a cream 725d waiting at the Munich airport, with a black bullet-proofed 750iL beside it. Great contrast!! Bit like seeing the yellow Statesman taxis in Melbourne beside the govt limo ones ;)

Cheers

JOHN

[nang3]

Can someone explain to me why they are $80k in the UK, but $130k here?

because the government applies various forms of macroeconomic protection policies on vehicles coming from manufacturers that aren't domestic..

Things like tariffs (tax on the foreign item), quotas (limiting the available supply of the foreign item to push demand up = higher prices) plus fiscal bonuses (and govt choosing them for its company car fleets) and/or tax breaks for the inefficient domestic companies... LCT applies to both domestic and foreign but the policies above help raise the foreign item into the LCT bracket as well.
These all contribute to the foreign item having an inflated price once on the showroom floor over here.
Protection is beneficial to the domestic manufacturer and the government - we the consumer are essentially being denied access to a superior product at its original cost, and the foreign manufacturer loses sales.
Basically the domestic company has no motivation to increase efficiency which is not a good thing.
I just had a look on the web - a Merc CL600 is US$144k + taxes (AUS$183,000) over here it is AUS$376,900, a difference of AUS$193,900 !!!!!!
Makes me mofo sick !!!!

[2001 ITR]

While good cars they do seem complicated and sometimes they go out of their way to make them even more complicated: e.g. Tell that brake pads are getting low via electrical contact via sensors in brake caliper getting closer to brake disc which activates a light on the dash – compared to simple sacrificial squealers on most cars.

[clixanup]

While good cars they do seem complicated and sometimes they go out of their way to make them even more complicated: e.g. Tell that brake pads are getting low via electrical contact via sensors in brake caliper getting closer to brake disc which activates a light on the dash – compared to simple sacrificial squealers on most cars.
That's smart, IMO. Many people ignore squealing brakes.

[JNP304]

Good review VZSS and to see a variety of cars exposed. Was following one today in grey, looks quite understated, perhaps a little too much in the grey. Black with MSport rims would be nice. For the price not bad, but if I has the money id be hard pressed to go past a second hand M3, those guard vents and flared guards! Awesome.
Had a steer of a CLK 63, (detuned version of the E63) I think its around 355kw. Awesome vehicle but a lot dearer then the 335. I think aftermarket tuners would be rubbing there hands together with the 335i. Id like to see someone put a mild tune on it and raise the boost.
Bit like an upper class skyline.

[phunky_monkey]

SLOW ... essentially anything less than a carrera is slow...

so boxter/S and cayman/S ... whipped by a bolt on LS1 ...

its the OMEGA of porches ... and everyone knows it

There's more to cars than straight line speed :)

I was driving with a 335 the other night, and have to say in person it really does look good, and sounds fantastic! I was impressed.

[German Statesman]

While good cars they do seem complicated and sometimes they go out of their way to make them even more complicated: e.g. Tell that brake pads are getting low via electrical contact via sensors in brake caliper getting closer to brake disc which activates a light on the dash – compared to simple sacrificial squealers on most cars.

Don't even think for a moment that's a bad thing - squealers work OK until it rains....

[lowriding]

While good cars they do seem complicated and sometimes they go out of their way to make them even more complicated: e.g. Tell that brake pads are getting low via electrical contact via sensors in brake caliper getting closer to brake disc which activates a light on the dash – compared to simple sacrificial squealers on most cars.

lots of cars have these systems .Yes even Holdens !

[Marco]

Things like tariffs (tax on the foreign item), quotas (limiting the available supply of the foreign item to push demand up = higher prices) plus fiscal bonuses (and govt choosing them for its company car fleets) and/or tax breaks for the inefficient domestic companies... LCT applies to both domestic and foreign but the policies above help raise the foreign item into the LCT bracket as well.
These all contribute to the foreign item having an inflated price once on the showroom floor over here.
Protection is beneficial to the domestic manufacturer and the government - we the consumer are essentially being denied access to a superior product at its original cost, and the foreign manufacturer loses sales.
Basically the domestic company has no motivation to increase efficiency which is not a good thing.
I just had a look on the web - a Merc CL600 is US$144k + taxes (AUS$183,000) over here it is AUS$376,900, a difference of AUS$193,900 !!!!!!
Makes me mofo sick !!!!

First of all, protectionism is just about a thing of the past (if we ignore One Nation and flat-earth-economics types for the moment). Tariffs are down to 10% and decreasing, import quotas are long gone, the Govt car fleet isn't as big and influential as people think, although I do agree that the Govt does put a lot of money into R&D incentives and the like for the local car industry.

Personally, I think the inflated price of imported luxury cars is due to the "ego factor". For one thing, they have marketed those cars so well that people think they should pay more to have the badge. For another, I'd imagine a fair proportion of the pleasure in owning a $100k car is being able to show other people that you are successful enough to own a $100k car. It wouldn't be quite as good if it was only a $60k car.

Even if these cars aren't better than mainstream cars, they are a status symbol as much as a car, and people who think that sort of thing matters will happily pay more to own them. People like me who don't really care what their neighbours think about their 'status' or level of success will continue to buy whatever best suits them, not what best impresses the neighbours.

It can't be a coincidence that the most profitable carmakers in the world on a $-per-car basis are BMW, Porsche and the like.

[VZSS250]

Look at what Holden did with the Monaro - essentially the car provided little value over an SS sedan, cost little more to produce, yet was priced $10k more. Why? Because Holden felt they could charge a premium for the innovation and style.

Why should BMW not benefit from its innovative range by way of premium prices? Why shoud they offer a car such as a 252kw Z4 convertible, or a V10 M5 and charge the same price as a manufacturer that is too lazy to stray from its family oriented cars?

I agree though that a 525i is very overpriced and people buy it simply for the "wank factor".

[Dacious]

Look at what Holden did with the Monaro - essentially the car provided little value over an SS sedan, cost little more to produce, yet was priced $10k more. Why? Because Holden felt they could charge a premium for the innovation and style.



Ermm, that'd be a no. An SS is a Berlina with a V8 and bodykit. A Monaro is a 2-door Calais, except the bodies were expensively assembled by hand rather than robots and not only got extra QC checks (everything under the bonnet has magic marker initials on it) but also extra clearcoats, doorseals etc. not to mention the standard memory seats and audio with subs and other equipment. If you optioned a SS with equivalent leather/climate/subs/SRS etc it was nearly as expensive as a Monaro until Holden ran out the VZ-Zs.

It cost Holden more manhours to make a Monaro plus broke up the assembly line - one reason they didn't want to do it originally. Given they cost within a few thou of a VY-VZ Calais V8 that seems about right.

[VU_SS_UTE]

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw.bmp
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw1.bmp
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/bmw2.bmp

Sounded like a great car till i saw those ^^^^^

Now I can just see one with a rug and a bowls hat on the parcel shelf.
Screams RSL Club to me

[Holden Man]

Let's not forget what it costs to service and maintain a BMW (or any German prestage car for that matter).

You may get to sit in a very trendy (at the dealers) coffee shop whilst it's getting serviced but you will pay for that experience.

One example of possible problems would be the Run Flat tyres which seem to be standard on most BMW's, theses tyres cannot be repaired if a nail gets them ! at $500(minimum) per tyre it can add up. Most tyre shops would have to order them in so a wait would be involved too.

Check out spare part prices also and compare them with the locals.

Nice car but I'd rather a V8 Calais V.

[nang3]

First of all, protectionism is just about a thing of the past (if we ignore One Nation and flat-earth-economics types for the moment). Tariffs are down to 10% and decreasing, import quotas are long gone, the Govt car fleet isn't as big and influential as people think, although I do agree that the Govt does put a lot of money into R&D incentives and the like for the local car industry.

Personally, I think the inflated price of imported luxury cars is due to the "ego factor". For one thing, they have marketed those cars so well that people think they should pay more to have the badge. For another, I'd imagine a fair proportion of the pleasure in owning a $100k car is being able to show other people that you are successful enough to own a $100k car. It wouldn't be quite as good if it was only a $60k car.

Even if these cars aren't better than mainstream cars, they are a status symbol as much as a car, and people who think that sort of thing matters will happily pay more to own them. People like me who don't really care what their neighbours think about their 'status' or level of success will continue to buy whatever best suits them, not what best impresses the neighbours.

It can't be a coincidence that the most profitable carmakers in the world on a $-per-car basis are BMW, Porsche and the like.


Very true mate and thank god protections levels are on the decline...

I would still love it if beemers and mercs came down to realistic prices. i.e. a few g's more than the equiv holden/ford - id be all over an M3 or C55 (or even a ford/holden equivalent with same build quality, refinement and performance) for $70-80k like a fat kid on a cupcake!!

my old man had a CLK-200 which is at the very lower end of the MB range and the build quality was impeccable, light years ahead of any nissan/ford/holden ive owned or driven...

[German Statesman]

my old man had a CLK-200 which is at the very lower end of the MB range and the build quality was impeccable, light years ahead of any nissan/ford/holden ive owned or driven...

The 11yr old BMW 7 series I had that was mercilessly pounded senseless 1500kms a week doing corporate limo work, was virtually squeak free with no sagged doors, broken seat bases, or torn leather like I saw in other 'luxury' cars in the trade.

What sold me was a three hour drive along a bulldust-infested highway in central QLD, and not one bit of dust got past the door & window sealing, into the engine or past the air & cabin filter.

[mid life]

Hi Guys

Interesting topic, debating the value of various cars both local and imported.

At the moment I own:

1/ Mitsubishi Evo IX tuned: (235kw's at the wheels) $60,000.00
2/ HSV GTO Coupe tuned by Power Torque: (240 rwkw) $85,000
3/ Porsche 911 Carrera S (stock) $247,000

The fastest car I own is also the cheapest, the best engine is the GTO, and the most pleasurable to drive is without dought the Porsche.

The Evo is extremely fast, but is probably the hardest to live with, its ride borders on unbearable and even on the track its is hardly inspirational, its just simply very fast but requires very little in the way of driver skill to acheive it, so while it is undeniably fast its no where near as rewarding as the Porsche or that matter even the GTO, but you can't help but marvel at its ability and what technology can achieve.

The GTO's LS2 engine is simply awsome and you have to go a long way to beat a well tuned V8 in my opinion, but the rest of the package is pretty average, the gearbox and the steering is hopeless compared to my other two cars, but everytime I drive it I just love that engine, the low down torque and exhaust note just awsome and head and shoulders above the others.

The Porsche probably combines the best of both my other cars and when driven hard offers rewards the others just can't match as well as build quality and looks.

In my opinion all my cars offer "value for money" because while the guy in a $60K Evo IX might beat me around a track he has in no way experienced the rewards I will get from the Porsche, is that worth and extra $180K? who can say but and in my book it does, some people may disagree but then they may never have experienced a Porsche either.

So "value for money" is a very individual topic and whats represents value for one person may not for another.

Cheers
Jeff

[GTS215i]

Our VP at work purchased his a couple of months ago (Pre release) and already some ass hole has keyed all the way down the left side. You can't see from the pic below but its actually gone through to metal on the front passenger door. Apart from that its an awsome car.

http://www.haroc.1337thing.com/ls1/GTS215/335.JPG

[CarlFST60L]

At the moment I own:

1/ Mitsubishi Evo IX tuned: (235kw's at the wheels) $60,000.00
2/ HSV GTO Coupe tuned by Power Torque: (240 rwkw) $85,000
3/ Porsche 911 Carrera S (stock) $247,000

Jeff

good post :)

[German Statesman]

Look, some of you may be shocked by what I'm about to say but the back of that looks so Honda Civic-ish its not funny...

Before the advent of Chris Bangle the current chief designer, BMW were known for their sexy elegant and delightful to drive cars - sure, there were a few head gasket issues and are-you-a-hairdresser image probs, but up until the intro of the current 7 series, they were lovely cars with a modicum of reliability.

Now, they've lost me with this anonymous/outrageous styling, over-gadgetry of even their base models, and unreliability.

I'd still own one, but an older one and I'd stay well away from dealer servicing like we all do.

[JNP304]

I think the whole service and parts thing is highly exagerrated. I work for MB and the long service intervals help keep things in perspective. For example its around 20,000km before any of the cars will be in for a first service. There is no 1000 or 3000km check. Most minor services are around 400 and major 800. Check the parts prices for say an ML 4wd air filter ect then a Land Cruiser. I think many would be very surprised at how reasonable MB service items really are. For example an 05 Astra Ill bet would be dearer for a major then a C180K

[phunky_monkey]

Agreed mate.

My dad has his E240 serviced every 15,000 I think, and he said it generally costs him about $400 or so, so it's not too bad at all.

I was looking at buying a C36 AMG before I bought the clubbie and it had 15, 000km intervals also.

[Holden Man]

Check the parts prices for say an ML 4wd air filter ect then a Land Cruiser.

Check the prices for brake pads for a ML compared to others.

[JNP304]

For the old ML pre 2005 they are retail of $282.11 not cheap but not as bad as some. Check the price for F6 with brembos lol

[Da_Omen]

Just buy an M5