L76 Maf or Mafless tune?

[VZGEN4]

Hey guys,

I'm currently in the market for a tune for my thunder. The only mods it's got is a 2.5" cat back exhaust.

I've been trawling through posts trying to find out whether to go maf or mafless with the L76.

I wont be doing any further mods in the near future and want a tune that best suits basically a stock standard car with cat back only.

Is it worth the extra $$ for the mafless tune (and OTRCAI) in terms of power gains or is the maf in the L76 Higher flowing than the previous LS1's and just do the 2nd hole mod to the air box.

Also warranty is a bit of a concern with maffless tune... or is it easy enough to throw all the pipe work and MAF back together when going in for a service and no one would be the wiser??

Any help from you gurus out there would be much appreciated!!

Cheers :driving:

[Uncle Tone]

Hey guys,

Any help from you gurus out there would be much appreciated!!

Cheers :driving:

I fear that you may get a very biased opinion here asking that question.

If its absolute outright last tenth at the track performance that you desire, go a mafless tune I think. You will have to check with your dealer about warranty of course.

If the warranty is a major concern, stick with a maf tune. You have a VZ maf, so the real world street performance between the two tunes will be as close as you can get, as long as its done by a reputable tuner.Driving the car you won't really notice a difference, take it to the track and there might be a few tenths in it, if anything at all.

[craigus]

agree with uncle tone. if you're chasin every last kw then mafless is the way. otherwise save a few bucks, go maf tune and also holden wont know its tuned. bit hard to get engine work done udner warranty with a missing maf :S dont knwo if you could connect the maf again after a mafless tune. i've never tried anddont really want to

Having said that i am chasing every last kw and i went mafless :)

[michaels1v8]

Based on the mods you specified and your circumstances (ie:warranty) I would just go with the Maf tune. It will retain the factory look and give you a performance boost. I cant see any reason why you would need to go Mafless at this point

[VZGEN4]

Thanks heaps for your help guys... Wont be going to the track so maf tune sounds like the go!

[HRT 8]

Thanks heaps for your help guys... Wont be going to the track so maf tune sounds like the go!

Id also hazard a guess that a mailorder tune would be money welll spent.

IMHO for those blokes going to the drags, or want bragging rights about their rwkw figures then a mail order isnt for them.

For a guy who wants to see a really good improvement in both power and economy, then a good mail order from a reputable tuner is money well spent.

There are several threads about these types of tunes floating around with some very happy customers.

[VZGEN4]

Id also hazard a guess that a mailorder tune would be money welll spent.

IMHO for those blokes going to the drags, or want bragging rights about their rwkw figures then a mail order isnt for them.

For a guy who wants to see a really good improvement in both power and economy, then a good mail order from a reputable tuner is money well spent.

There are several threads about these types of tunes floating around with some very happy customers.

I did look into mail order tunes a while back and there didn't seem to be anybody doing them yet as there hadn't been enough tunes done on the L76 to give a safe and efficient tune.

Also I think the whole computer has to be sent away to get reflashed?

Anyway thanks for your help, I'll look into it again.

[zr1-man]

Hi
So what is involved with a maf tune? And is it best done in conjunction with dyno runs? (Just wondering how those mail order maf tunes work). If anyone could post links to where this has already been put to bed in the forums that would help. Cheers.

[VZMY06SS]

I had my car tuned both maffless and with a maf on the same dyno within a few weeks. L76 with D/F headers and cats, redback catback, and CAI.
Maf retained, 269rwkw
Maf removed, 275rwkw
The difference in throttle response was slightly increased, but aside from that there seems to be no difference. The initial tune with CAI showed that the stock cam was what was holding the car back, not lack of air. The one thing that did greatly improve was the fuel economy when cruising with the maf tune. Averages about 1-1.5L/100km better than with initial tune. I think if you could get a CAI with maf retained then you would see very similar results to a mafless OTR tune.
Oztrack would surely do a good mail order tune wouldn't they?

Steve

[CBH Senator]

I'm not sure if its cool dragging up a thread from this long ago, apologies if not. But thought its better than starting a new one, and it is the perfect thread for what I desperately need to know.

Most people on this site quote MAFless as the only way to go.
A few experiences above state that there's bugger all in it, and for a daily driver and keeping warranty, MAF is the way to go.

I'm not chasing every last 0.1kw, its a daily driver and I'm just looking for a few extra Kw and any economy and smoothness I can get. Under these circumstances is MAF the way to go, or am I missing somthing?

Thanks!

[swingtan]

The reason there is so much bias on this site for MAFless tunes, is because the vast majority of the information is based on the LS1 controller. When you look at the E38, it's a whole new ball game. I've run both MAF and MAFless in mine, again both stock cam and after market. I've logged a large amount, including a succession of 2.5 to 3 hour stints and I've looked pretty hard at most sections of the E38 tunes. I've also been in contact with a large number of other tuners and discussed the MAF / MAFless issues.

My personal preference, is to keep the MAF and here are my reasons...


The MAF will still auto compensate for changes in air density and temperature.
The MAF posses negligible restriction to total air flow.
The E38 tune uses the MAF measurements to dynamically adjust different settings in the tune. Remove the MAF and you remove the dynamic adjustment.
The MAF signal actually responds faster to airflow changes than the MAP sensor does. This may not have been apparent in the LS!, but in the E38 you can measure the difference.
The MAF allows for fine adjustment of part throttle and moving throttle conditions.


Sure, not all of these will matter to some people and some people will only care about peak power / torque. Others will be happy to trade 5rwkw for a really well behaved car under all conditions. Don't get me wrong, you can do a well behaved MAFless tune, but it won't always be "optimal". This biggest difference I've found between MAF and MAFless is for a manual car between gear changes. The E38 uses the MAF to control "dynamic fueling" much like the "pump shot" on an old carby engine. IF you remove the MAF, the E38 no longer knows how much air flow there is so defaults to the minimum values. Sure you can tweak these to make them correct for 1/4 mile work, but then they will be out for daily driving. It becomes a trade off in the end and you may have rougher shifts than if the MAF was being used. In a daily driver, I've yet to see compelling evidence that removing the MAF makes for a better tune.

The reasons for running a MAF or MAFless tune are more likely to come down to your intake choice. Some OTR's mean that a MAF is unable to be used, so if you want that type of OTR, then you are stuck with a MAFless tune. Others will let you run a MAF and you have a choice. I'm currently running an OTR with a MAF and am having some very nice results.

Simon.

[surfwagon]

When you say the E38 you're talking about the PCM, right?
Would that be the same pcm as used in the VZ LS2 6.0L.
Although at this stage I'm erring towards mafless (otr intake chosen and talking to a few tuners) i would prefer to stay with the maf for reasons you stated above.
The other thing I noticed at the moment is that even with mail order tunes for my car no one has an exchange/or buy outright computer as like everything I mod I like to keep the std parts just in case.

Cheers

[swingtan]

PCM and ECM are slightly different terms...


PCM: Power Control Module. Controls both the engine parameters and the transmission parameters ( for an automatic car ) in the one unit. This was found in all LS1 powered vehicles up to and including the 5.7lt VZ ( all versions ).

ECM: Engine Control Module. Controls only the engine parameters and has no direct control over the transmission. There are 2 types found in Holdens, basically...



E40: Found in all VZ LS2 powered vehicles.
E38: Found in all other 6lt and over vehicles.




So your VZ LS2 will be running an E40 ECM. It's meant to be a more "feature rich" computer than the E38, but the tune in the HSV vehicles looks a lot like an LS1 tune that's been updated to run in the newer ECM.

You can get new ECM's from the States for reasonable prices, about $260 USD plus shipping. they can even load it with a stock GM tune and your current VIN details.

Simon.

[surfwagon]

Thanks for the info very helpful.
Just thought of something though.
If I have an auto (senator) then do I have a PCM and not an ECM and would the code numbers still be the same, eg E40?

[swingtan]

As I said before, ALL VZ's with LS2 had the E40 ECM. Your auto will have it's own TCM ( Transmission Control Module ) that interfaces with the ECM.

[Excellent]

swingtan

Great posts, thanks. :goodjob:

[smokey777]

i think ill be getting a MAF tune on me ute not MAFless

[surfwagon]

As I said before, ALL VZ's with LS2 had the E40 ECM. Your auto will have it's own TCM ( Transmission Control Module ) that interfaces with the ECM.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.
decisions, decsions!

[loudvtss]

I'm currently running an OTR with a MAF and am having some very nice results.

Simon.

What OTR are you running? I'm thinking of getting a MAF mail order tune and an OTR?

Thanks

[swingtan]

I'm currently running a custom alloy OTR with an inbuilt MAF. However if you have a VE, I believe the Orrsom OTR can be used with a MAF.

[loudvtss]

I'm currently running a custom alloy OTR with an inbuilt MAF. However if you have a VE, I believe the Orrsom OTR can be used with a MAF.

Have a VZ. There's a fair bit of activity at GM Motorsport. I will probably wait and see what's on offer..

[alian]

I'm currently running a custom alloy OTR with an inbuilt MAF. However if you have a VE, I believe the Orrsom OTR can be used with a MAF.

Simon, Are u still liking thge response of the OTR.
Cheers Ian

[BigRobL76]

The reason there is so much bias on this site for MAFless tunes, is because the vast majority of the information is based on the LS1 controller. When you look at the E38, it's a whole new ball game. I've run both MAF and MAFless in mine, again both stock cam and after market. I've logged a large amount, including a succession of 2.5 to 3 hour stints and I've looked pretty hard at most sections of the E38 tunes. I've also been in contact with a large number of other tuners and discussed the MAF / MAFless issues.

My personal preference, is to keep the MAF and here are my reasons...


The MAF will still auto compensate for changes in air density and temperature.
The MAF posses negligible restriction to total air flow.
The E38 tune uses the MAF measurements to dynamically adjust different settings in the tune. Remove the MAF and you remove the dynamic adjustment.
The MAF signal actually responds faster to airflow changes than the MAP sensor does. This may not have been apparent in the LS!, but in the E38 you can measure the difference.
The MAF allows for fine adjustment of part throttle and moving throttle conditions.


Sure, not all of these will matter to some people and some people will only care about peak power / torque. Others will be happy to trade 5rwkw for a really well behaved car under all conditions. Don't get me wrong, you can do a well behaved MAFless tune, but it won't always be "optimal". This biggest difference I've found between MAF and MAFless is for a manual car between gear changes. The E38 uses the MAF to control "dynamic fueling" much like the "pump shot" on an old carby engine. IF you remove the MAF, the E38 no longer knows how much air flow there is so defaults to the minimum values. Sure you can tweak these to make them correct for 1/4 mile work, but then they will be out for daily driving. It becomes a trade off in the end and you may have rougher shifts than if the MAF was being used. In a daily driver, I've yet to see compelling evidence that removing the MAF makes for a better tune.

The reasons for running a MAF or MAFless tune are more likely to come down to your intake choice. Some OTR's mean that a MAF is unable to be used, so if you want that type of OTR, then you are stuck with a MAFless tune. Others will let you run a MAF and you have a choice. I'm currently running an OTR with a MAF and am having some very nice results.

Simon.

Is there many out there with cam upgrade still running pod and MAF? I have a SS Growler and was thining of changing to OTR MAFless but now considering MAF pipe with pod filter by K@N or yella terra. What are your thoughts? I am not chasing tenths but a reputable streeter to beat entry level rice burners.

[alian]

Is there many out there with cam upgrade still running pod and MAF? I have a SS Growler and was thining of changing to OTR MAFless but now considering MAF pipe with pod filter by K@N or yella terra. What are your thoughts? I am not chasing tenths but a reputable streeter to beat entry level rice burners.[/QUOTE]

I had a growler on my Vz 6l. then changed to an alloy otr both pre Cam. The differance was incredible. Had to play arround with fuelings a bit. but was impressed with the change.
Cheers Ian

[CBH Senator]

swingtan
Great posts, thanks. :goodjob:

+1 on that, thanks Simon for comprehensively answering my question.
Definately MAF OTR for me after that.