*** Supercharged Engine Dyno Fire*** VIDEO

[Justice R8]

Hi Guys

Just thought some of you might like to see why Sam does his testing on an engine dyno.

Although this is not an engine he built, it was one that was brought in for him to put on the engine dyno and tune. It only takes a $2 part to fail. The owner was extremely happy that this happened in the closed engine dyno room and not in the car. Sam gets quite a few of these types of jobs for anything from Sprintcars, Supercars, Drag cars or speedway as people trust the results that are delivered by the Dynolog Engine Dyno and compare any changes that they have made to their engine without getting any false reports that could come from driveline issues.

Please note I have edited out some of the talking as there were things discussed during the tuning that are not for the competition.

Cheers
Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX5KpIXm3bg

[GN3GTO]

Damn can't get over how quick she light up - freakin' scary.. Yeah lucky engine was not in car but more importantly no one seriously injured either.

Can I ask a stupid question - did the fire itself cause any damage to dyno i.e. cables, sensors etc.



:)

[Justice R8]

Damn can't get over how quick she light up - freakin' scary.. Yeah lucky engine was not in car but more importantly no one seriously injured either.

Can I ask a stupid question - did the fire itself cause any damage to dyno i.e. cables, sensors etc.



:)

Luckily no damage.

[jsttry]

Damn, very lucky indeed. Hope there wasn't too much damage to equipment or engine.

[Ryzz]

Crap, thats one massive Fireball. Any idea what happened to cause this??

[Covert]

Crap, thats one massive Fireball. Any idea what happened to cause this??

If you watch it through to the end it says an injector O-ring let go.

[Alex81]

fark me that a huge fire ball, and glad it was put out quick and that there was no damage

[TLX]

SHHHIIIIITTTT........

just had mine on the dyno this week getting a few mods......might think twice next time, the engine cops a spankin!:yahoo:

Tully

[CarlFST60L]

WOW, that would have got the heart pumping!

[diabolic]

SHHHIIIIITTTT........

just had mine on the dyno this week getting a few mods......might think twice next time, the engine cops a spankin!:yahoo:

Tully
I think they'd rather it happen in an enclosed room outside the car then giving it some stick on a main road!

[Justice R8]

SHHHIIIIITTTT........

just had mine on the dyno this week getting a few mods......might think twice next time, the engine cops a spankin!:yahoo:

Tully


Tully
A dyno is fine. Your car on a dyno is the same as full throttle up a hill. I guess the key is that when engine comes down and goes back together again, its great to be able to test the thing in a secure environment.

Some people say an Engine Dyno is purely for the wank factor. This is just another reason why they are quite valuable I guess.

I have had that footage for a while, hence why I told Seedy to get his o-rings and rail setup checked before christmas. As you can see it all happens in split seconds, with the room being engulfed. I am the first to admit I absolutely shiit myself

Not bad power though. Apart from the flames I thought the bit of the guys talking power numbers was quite funny. Another example of how smart Sam really is. The engine still had a lot of dyno time needed for fine tuning, which you do after chasing the big chunks of power. The customer was chasing 1100fwhp. He had previously given Sam all the specs of the engine and the boost levels the engine was built to run so Sam new what it should be capeable of if scvrewed together right.
After the 1100 they discuss what the customer wants to do as only Sam can put it.

[Martin_D]

After the 1100 they discuss what the customer wants to do as only Sam can put it.

Concise, succinct, and to the point :lol: :)
Im a big fan of that approach, no chance of misunderstanding :teach:

However...cast your mind back to Horsepower Heroes just over 12 months ago an exactly the same thing happened on a chassis dyno! :deal:

[LSX-438]

wow Darren, just wow.

[HRT Stroker]

Great Vid Justice!

Great to see how fast the guys are to get the extinguisher and put it too use, PLENTY of business's out there don't even have them, let along have them in the right place ready for use.

Kudos to Sam for his set up and cool head!

[Dane VN V8]

Scary shit, great video mate.

Dane.

[Bomi]

Man that was full on!! Good vid Darren.

Has Sam thought about a Automated or Semi automated Fire fighting system?

That way you wouldnt have to enter the room if there was a big fuel system let go, all you would do is flick a switch or pull a leaver and the room would be flooded with Co2.


Thanks for the vid, rated it at Youtube.


Troy :)

[HRT Stroker]

.....Has Sam thought about a Automated or Semi automated Fire fighting system?





I wondered the same thing, dangerous having to go itnto a small room fed with flammable liquids!!!

[Justice R8]

Man that was full on!! Good vid Darren.

Has Sam thought about a Automated or Semi automated Fire fighting system?

That way you wouldnt have to enter the room if there was a big fuel system let go, all you would do is flick a switch or pull a leaver and the room would be flooded with Co2.


Thanks for the vid, rated it at Youtube.


Troy :)

Sam has had a look at a number of systems. The problem is that all systems are too easily triggered and can be catastophic to an engine that could be worth up to $100k. The is especially so with the powders and foams that are available.

The engine room is made of concrete and pretty well empty of anything to burn with solid doors. The whole fuel system and tank is located outside of the cell so once the pumps are turned off the supply stops.

In saying that, you can see how much fuel was sprayed in the split seconds and how much fire comes from so little fuel. In a worst case scenario the fuel would be let to burn out if the flames were too intense, but generally after the flash, it is not that intense and ok to enter if trained properly. As you can see in this video. It looks dramatic and yes, freaked me out (I Was videoing ans standing like a stunned mullet), but even with all the flames and intense initial flash, it was not all that bad as there was nothing in the room to continue the burn or allow the burn. The reason the Dyno wiring was not badly burnt is that most of it drops down around the perimeter of the intake hood above which is bigger than the engine, so most of the flames went up the hood.

[Animal]

Now I know what the brown stain is on the floor outside the engine dyno room. All the time I was thinking it was an old oil spill :)

Sam's reaction is priceless - faaaarrrrrkkkkk !!! Then into action he goes.

Great video Darren, thanks for sharing that one

[Justice R8]

Concise, succinct, and to the point :lol: :)
Im a big fan of that approach, no chance of misunderstanding :teach:

However...cast your mind back to Horsepower Heroes just over 12 months ago an exactly the same thing happened on a chassis dyno! :deal:


Excellent point there Martin. Most of us saw the photos and read the articles. All I can say is that he was lucky that it happened there with a full time professional fire crew standing right beside the car. I am sure the result would have been considerably different if there had not been a professional fire crew right near the car that reacted so quickly.

Being from the fuel industry, I was trained in firefighting. I have tried to put a car out that was on fire along with 20 other people. It was ignited and had about 45 seconds to take hold, which is what they estimated it would take for someone to react. We used only dry powder like found in most workshops and could go in 2 at a time. We had no hope. Once the inside catches you are up shit creek, without about ten people hitting it at once with the dry powder.

[VooDoo]

Just shows you that you can have the best parts, best workshop and best equipment and things can still go wrong. You cant point fingers and blame anything or anyone when sh!t happens, It all comes down to how its handled afterwards that shows the difference between the good workshops and the GREAT.

awesome vid Darren.

[Martin_D]

Im a little bit concerned with the description 'an injector O-ring let go'.
Being captive and held in place via the fuel rail around the top of the injector they simply dont and cant (in most cases) 'let go' :confused:

What in fact does happen in this situation is that the fuel pressure being jacked into the engine to support big power will cause 'L' section fuel rail brackets to flex and allow the seal between the injector and the rail (which just happens to be the o-ring) to open and spray fuel everywhere.....just like this. Was this found to be the cause? :teach:

Another reason why fuel systems are sometimes not a job for the casual enthusiast :)

[Justice R8]

Im a little bit concerned with the description 'an injector O-ring let go'.
Being captive and held in place via the fuel rail around the top of the injector they simply dont and cant (in most cases) 'let go' :confused:

What in fact does happen in this situation is that the fuel pressure being jacked into the engine to support big power will cause 'L' section fuel rail brackets to flex and allow the seal between the injector and the rail (which just happens to be the o-ring) to open and spray fuel everywhere.....just like this. Was this found to be the cause? :teach:

Another reason why fuel systems are sometimes not a job for the casual enthusiast :)

I will answer later as I am heading out for coffee. At least Myth busters actually test their theories instead of just shooting of their mouths.

[Martin_D]

Oh....errr.....I see :confused:
Just clarify it for the punters I suppose. As you can see from TLX response he was hesitant about having his car on a dyno again....the last thing we want is a wholesale rush on o-rings lest they should 'let go' :)

[Tre-Cool]

Oh....errr.....I see :confused:
Just clarify it for the punters I suppose. As you can see from TLX response he was hesitant about having his car on a dyno again....the last thing we want is a wholesale rush on o-rings lest they should 'let go' :)
I've had an o-ring split on an injector and spray fuel all over my manifold and i was only just priming the fuel rail up after connecting the lines.

The pressure cut the o-ring in half and longways.

I believe it.

[Martin_D]

I've had an o-ring split on an injector and spray fuel all over my manifold and i was only just priming the fuel rail up after connecting the lines.
The pressure cut the o-ring in half and longways.
I believe it.

That's a condition normally caused by lack of lubricant (rubber grease) upon injector installation which has caused the o-ring to 'grab' on the way into the fuel rail hence it failed as soon as you fired the system up. Dont get me wrong though Im not saying an injector o-ring cant fail for no apparent reason....but I have never seen an otherwise stock Gen-III with a failed injector o-ring (Yes I know the engine on the dyno is an old Chev not an LSX) Which is probaby why it would be a good education for the users on here to get a clarification. Might save someone else an engine...or if it happens on the road....their car, and possibly their life. Its not really something to get precious about :teach:

Justice already quite clearly stated the whole thing was done by the owner (or another workshop) not Sam, so theres no rubbish about who did what etc. hence there shouldnt really be a need for any angst :eek:

[Satansfist]

I liked the conversation:

"...do you want ****en 1500 horsepower or do you want ****en 1100? If you want 1100 then we're ****en there!"

"...what else can you do?"

Hahahahahaaaa...classic.:lol:

Then at the end after the fire is out you catch a glimpse of the computer monitor and a high AFR alarm is lashing at the top of the screen.

[Bomi]

Sam has had a look at a number of systems. The problem is that all systems are too easily triggered and can be catastophic to an engine that could be worth up to $100k. The is especially so with the powders and foams that are available.

The engine room is made of concrete and pretty well empty of anything to burn with solid doors. The whole fuel system and tank is located outside of the cell so once the pumps are turned off the supply stops.

In saying that, you can see how much fuel was sprayed in the split seconds and how much fire comes from so little fuel. In a worst case scenario the fuel would be let to burn out if the flames were too intense, but generally after the flash, it is not that intense and ok to enter if trained properly. As you can see in this video. It looks dramatic and yes, freaked me out (I Was videoing ans standing like a stunned mullet), but even with all the flames and intense initial flash, it was not all that bad as there was nothing in the room to continue the burn or allow the burn. The reason the Dyno wiring was not badly burnt is that most of it drops down around the perimeter of the intake hood above which is bigger than the engine, so most of the flames went up the hood.


Thanks Darren, I know what you mean, we have them in some vehicles at work and they are utra sensitive, to the point were you cant take flash photo's as it could set them off.

If Sam ever did decide to get one he should look at Semi auto ones, EG Initiated by an operator.


Troy :thumbsup:

[VX SS]

Hello Martin:p

Good to see you here again must be my shout.:beer: you seem to tense lately


Gees I feel bad I actually have to agree with you, by the way a great vid seems familiar seen this before.

Its very unlikely that a oring will fail on a injector, if it does it was most probably crushed / nipped on install,

The other way is that under load if the fuel rail mounting brackets allow to much flex you can allow the rail to pop off the injector. hence the famous footage you mention

[Martin_D]

Hello Martin:p
Good to see you here again must be my shout.:beer: you seem to tense lately


Been waiting for that shout Gaz........ :)

[Justice R8]

Oh....errr.....I see :confused:
Just clarify it for the punters I suppose. As you can see from TLX response he was hesitant about having his car on a dyno again....the last thing we want is a wholesale rush on o-rings lest they should 'let go' :)

Try reading my response to TLX and I think I made it clear that there is no problem with a chassis dyno but to test something its better on a engine dyno.

Maybe you would like to share some of your scientific testing proceedures on fuel rails or anything else that you have done. Just putting something on and go wow that worked I wouldnt actually call scientific


Street_Tuna

Im a little bit concerned with the description 'an injector O-ring let go'.
Being captive and held in place via the fuel rail around the top of the injector they simply dont and cant (in most cases) 'let go'

What in fact does happen in this situation is that the fuel pressure being jacked into the engine to support big power will cause 'L' section fuel rail brackets to flex and allow the seal between the injector and the rail (which just happens to be the o-ring) to open and spray fuel everywhere.....just like this. Was this found to be the cause?

Another reason why fuel systems are sometimes not a job for the casual enthusiast

Grab your popcorn fatas cause here we go again. It never fails to amaze me how a scientific conclusion can be made with such limited info as viewing a 3 minute clip from youtube.

Whilst you have a valid point that some rails may move or may be left loose that is not the case. With your scientific observation skills you will notice that these are not your everyday run of the mill parts. Does that manifold look like a catalogue item? Do the fuels rails? Pipes?


You will hear in the vid a voice say was it an injector let go? This is actually the voice of a very scientific person who actually does development software for a leading aftermarket eng management system who had been going and re-writting parameters so this engine could be tuned with more finite parameters. At first that was the assumtion. upon investigation the injector was intact, the fuel rail was tight without any flex, fuel pressure was not abnormal. These were simple checks done in a short time.
The things that were not checked on the night after the fire were the injector seals o-rings, injector hole sizing on the manifold, injector hole depth, or the the injector depth. These would have have all been checked by the engine builder as the engine was being built as well as during the fabrication of the manifold. Remember this engine was only there to be tuned and engine dyno'd as I stated clearly in the first post.

It would be worthy to mention that with your fuel injection experience, it is worth changing these each time you remove and refit injectors. Injector seals heat cycle and do eventually get harder and for the minimal expense why wouldnt you. Sam replaces the O-rings everytime he removes the injector rail. O-rings are very cheap so why would you chance it. Were they new injector seals on this engine who knows. The owner couldnt answer the question.

Generally when a fuel rail is loose due to being left loose or the fuel rail brackets not strong enough will cause all of the injectors to leak as a rulle of thumb. If one end is left loose it will generally leak from 2 to 3 injectors. This isnt just an issue for the backyarders either. Craig from craigs auto got a great set of sexy looking brand name fuel rails for his CAPA drag car that were designed for an LS1. As soon as he turned the key on there was fuel leaking everywhere. They had been fitted correctly but I think the problem was the brackets holding the fuel rail were to short. I know he changed injector seals. That helped but didnt solve the problem. He eventually changed and got the proper rail backets to suit the rails and all was well. But interestingly enough, the fact that just putting new seals on the injectors, although not fixing the issue, helped with the problem. It demonstrated that o-rings do shrink and shows that we all should probably think about changing them each time the rails is removed.


That's a condition normally caused by lack of lubricant (rubber grease) upon injector installation which has caused the o-ring to 'grab' on the way into the fuel rail hence it failed as soon as you fired the system up. Dont get me wrong though Im not saying an injector o-ring cant fail for no apparent reason....but I have never seen an otherwise stock Gen-III with a failed injector o-ring (Yes I know the engine on the dyno is an old Chev not an LSX) Which is probaby why it would be a good education for the users on here to get a clarification. Might save someone else an engine...or if it happens on the road....their car, and possibly their life. Its not really something to get precious about :teach:

Justice already quite clearly stated the whole thing was done by the owner (or another workshop) not Sam, so theres no rubbish about who did what etc. hence there shouldnt really be a need for any angst :eek:

Although the engine was done by someone else I am only stating what was checked on the night as I was there and what wasnt.

Although the engine is not an LSX, you may want to get out the Corky bell books again and have a look at the distributor positioning before calling it an old chev:p :p If it was a chev with the distributor positioned anywhere at the front, it would be a far too valuable an engine to be pumping FI into it trying to make HP.

I thought a scientist would have picked that up quite quickly as you have seemed to have diagnosed the other issues with the engine from a 3 minute youtube video.

This engine made the 1177 at around 25 psi mark so that gives you something to look for when you build your 20+psi tt ls1. Hopefully you will share some of that testing with us all when you do it.

[Martin_D]

Darren,
Please show this to your scientist - the billet fuel rail brackets that I use on my car. Immense torsional rigidity and guaranteed to sit square on the injector at fuel pressures beyond which a conventional EFI injector will operate. These locate the rail across a wide surface area in four points and are superior in every way to a piece of 3mm strap steel or aluminium :teach:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/fuelrailbracket.jpg
I agree O-rings should be changed whenever you change the injectors, which is why most professional auto tech shops will have a box of o-rings there. Generally a good quality o-ring will have zero shrinkage, but like most parts o-rings can vary 0.1mm or so brand to brand which can give a different sealing effect. Always use the right size o-ring for both the injector and the rail, locate the rails securely and with a thought for the pressures involved in a high output pressurised fluid handling system and fuel leakage problems and the resultant catastrophic fires that come with them should be a thing of the past :)

This isnt self indulgence but rather an observation that 'an o-ring let go' is a possibly an over-simplication of a subject that many readers on here will take seriously and wish to avoid at all costs. Thankfully it didnt happen on the road :)

[Justice R8]

Darren,
Please show this to your scientist - the billet fuel rail brackets that I use on my car. Immense torsional rigidity and guaranteed to sit square on the injector at fuel pressures beyond which a conventional EFI injector will operate. These locate the rail across a wide surface area in four points and are superior in every way to a piece of 3mm strap steel or aluminium :teach:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/fuelrailbracket.jpg
I agree O-rings should be changed whenever you change the injectors, which is why most professional auto tech shops will have a box of o-rings there. Generally a good quality o-ring will have zero shrinkage, but like most parts o-rings can vary 0.1mm or so brand to brand which can give a different sealing effect. Always use the right size o-ring for both the injector and the rail, locate the rails securely and with a thought for the pressures involved in a high output pressurised fluid handling system and fuel leakage problems should be a thing of the past :)

Now that a nice bit of gear there tuna. Now they are the pics and posts I love to see.

[V8R]

great vid, tho i am a little surprised that even simple remote extinguisher setups dont seem to be used in engine dyno rooms?

[Animal]

Just so everyone is aware, the guy who owned the motor had ben to several places before visiting us. Previous engine builders had suggested a whole magnitide of things that he should do to build a high HP engine. He has also spent a fair amount of $$ prior to meeting with Sam.

Some of you may recognise the motor out of a car that featured in Street Machine. A seriously big hemi with a pro charger I could fit my arm inside.

Sam spent a fair few days setting the motor up on the engine dyno and running his own tests to gauge what was going on. Noone of the parts were supplied or fitted by Sam. He was mainly hired to troubleshoot the issues and tune the sucker.

I remember seeing the motor on the engine dyno for weeks. Never did I see it start up or have a power run. Luckily Darren was there and did the camera thing for us all.

I have personally had one of the green o-rings split on my own standard fuel rail. Luckily one of Sams sons suggested we prime the lines before starting it. I am blessed he said this as when the pump started, fuel sprayed everywhere.

Accidents happen, brand new components fail, that is how it is.

I honestly don't think a video of an engine fire should scare off guys from doing it. I have a personal collection of engines coming apart on chassis dyno's if you guys want to see them. Just something I collect to remind me that it is not only $60,000 top fuel engines that go fireball when they have just been rebuilt and tested.

Sam actually got the enigine to where we just saw it in the video ( fire included :) ) many other tuners did not come close to the nubers we saw on the mission control screens.

Give some credit where credit is due guys

[strife]

ive had the fuel intake hose split twice times on the grange when I had the supercharger kit fitted.

Looking at this I shudder to think of the possibilities

[Justice R8]

ive had the fuel intake hose split twice times on the grange when I had the supercharger kit fitted.

Looking at this I shudder to think of the possibilities


I had the same thing with my GTO. I too was lucky. I presumed that the dizzy could have been the ignition point for it, but cant be certain as the force of the rear fan pulling in fresh air to the room means the fuel mist had to flow forward against the air. In saying that, the LS1 car at summernats didnt have a dizzy and it ignited, so obviously there is enough heat from pipes etc to ignite.

Strife I guess we were lucky with ours

[Chris5.7ltr]

FFAAARRKKK thats scary shit!

Just goes to show the littlest things can make things go from good to bad in a split second.

I remember Sam showing me this engine while it was set up on the dyno one day when I was there.
Pretty impressive set up with the numbers to match.

[VooDoo]

I remember a test drive in that GTO a few days after you got it where the fuel line broke. Nothing like getting a fire extinguisher passed to me in the passenger seat.... "just in case we need it"