March Wheels Mag CGI's of Orion Falcon

[BadMac]

Thanks to FAF. Comments have been very mixed. One person who's seen the real thing has commented they are close. Many others have commented some bits are wrong (ie rear 1/4 is very AU like). Its beleived to be a base model as its got no skirts or wings. Also the second picture looks very much like one of the early wheels VE CGI's, but with Falcon styling cues. Maybe they started from the same base.


Wheels reveals: 2008 Ford Falcon
4 hours ago
Exclusive pictures and details expose Ford’s plans for next year's all-important new large car, codenamed Orion.

Australia’s leading new car magazine, Wheels has lifted the lid on Ford’s make-or-break next Falcon, the Orion.
Wheels’ March issue, on sale this Wednesday (February 28), exposes the Falcon’s dramatic new look and gives exclusive details of the car Ford Australia hopes will reignite both plummeting Falcon sales and the depressed local large car market.
Highlights of Wheels’ authoritative take on the car codenamed Orion include:
. Detailed pictures of what the new Falcon will look like, including its major styling cues and their links to other cars in Ford’s local and global range;
. How the XR performance versions will differ from fleet and family Falcons;
. How Ford will beat the rear seat entry problems that have plagued the Falcon since AU; and,
. Engineering highlights – including full details of the new Falcon’s suspension, steering, transmissions, engines and new, tougher front end.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/wheelsfalcon.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi2.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi3.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi4.jpg

[Belzey]

Eww got to say I do not like it. Looks like a Camry x Mazda 6

[GTS LSA]

Not that I have a care factor, cause I sure as hell wont be buying one........... but that looks terrible.................... looks like a camry that got done over by a VE (guards) and this is the bastrd child................ someone needs a bullet:machinegun: :bash: :biggun: :rocket: :banghead: :outlaw: :spew: :spew: :spew:

[nang3]

hmm i dont like it too much either, hate the flared guards !!!!!!!
but it does look like a povvo pack model so it might be similar to the VE where the base look shizzle and the upspec are off da hizzle

[GN3GTO]

Not to sound too biased but that looks like a piece of shite - seriously!!!!!
Whether the final product ends up looking exactly like that or similar this new model car poses no threat to the VE...

I don't like it and the person in charge for designing it should be :biggun:

[BadMac]

Also some specs are starting to emerge.

290kw Boss' for the XR8s and hotted up 320kw versions for the FPV's, no superchargers.

XR6T may have 270Kw F6 spec engine (to equal SS) and F6 goes to 300Kw.

XR8 will still have bonnet bulge.

[Danv8]

Hmm I have mixed feelings although it looks OK to me I think the wheels look naff as anything though.

[xploit]

Thanks to FAF. Comments have been very mixed. One person who's seen the real thing has commented they are close. Many others have commented some bits are wrong (ie rear 1/4 is very AU like). Its beleived to be a base model as its got no skirts or wings. Also the second picture looks very much like one of the early wheels VE CGI's, but with Falcon styling cues. Maybe they started from the same base.



http://images.cainer.net//uploads/wheelsfalcon.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi2.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi3.jpg
http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orioncgi4.jpg


Its name is an Orion....

thats ironic because it looks like an aurion ie camry.

Someone shoot it.:sux:

[Mr Moosh]

I don't mind the front at all... not very falcon, but at least Ford went for something a bit different rather than boring VE. That rear is a joke though. Surely that's wrong!

[SICK SS]

mixed reaction from the ford camps lol some are saying its the AU all over again

[RED R8]

Not too bad looks a bit subaru liberty but not bad.

[Drewie]

If you read the text it says they are computer generated images from information they have gathered, so they might be right out of wack.

[ratty05]

Anyone check out the FPV territory concept on carpoint, now there's an ugly piece of shite if I've ever seen one. Who in their right mind thinks mmmmm, I might paint this car sky blue, that'll look good!

[`redoctober]

I love it.

Only because this means more business for Holden :lmao:

[vyssbeast]

Also some specs are starting to emerge.

290kw Boss' for the XR8s and hotted up 320kw versions for the FPV's, no superchargers.

XR6T may have 270Kw F6 spec engine (to equal SS) and F6 goes to 300Kw.

XR8 will still have bonnet bulge.

thats impressive...but is it enough to makeup for the look?

[flappist]

Come on guys, you are showing a bit of silliness here.

Go back and have a look at the CGIs of the VE and compae them to the real thing. You know, the Audi crossed with a magna must be ugly VE CGIs.

Or the original "AV" falcon CGIs.

But it DOES sell magazines doesn't it?

[SICK SS]

il tell u now they still be slower then a ve

[ShanghaiVZ]

If you read the text it says they are computer generated images from information they have gathered, so they might be right out of wack.

BINGO!! think back to when they were doing the CGI's of the VE, they were nowhere near it! I reserve judgement untill I see the actual car, and not CGI images from a bloody magazine!

[Ghia351]

Considering the rear 3 qrt view of the Wheels scoops show completely carried over AU/BA/BF roof profile, side & rear glass house and qrt panels and BF tailights it's very safe to assume Orion is nothing like this and that Wheels needs more Ford fans to "shop" this month.

[BadMac]

BINGO!! think back to when they were doing the CGI's of the VE, they were nowhere near it! I reserve judgement untill I see the actual car, and not CGI images from a bloody magazine!

Im looking at the August 2005 wheels now with one of the early CGI's (12 months before launch). And I can tell you its not far off, lights were wrong, front bar looks like Omega, front spoiler was way off, rear was good and had SSV taillights. Wheels did have an advantage due to basing it off pics of Torana which in the end was very close to VE.

[zetaman]

It looks to be a good clean design. Not too sure about the looong front and rear overhang but if it's essentially a rebody then there's not much Ford can do about that.

[zacz]

I dont think those CGIs are that good to be honest! To me i can still see the lines of the current BA in the sides....and even the front and rear! This looks more like a facelift (gone wrong mind you!) than an all new platform!

:werd:

[geary]

I've seen the car and will be chopping it for Drive soon.

Wheels is right in some bits, but off in others. Overall, pretty close. The shape gives a different feel, though.

[BlueVZSS]

The final version cannot be that ugly. If it has that slab-sided camry look then Ford is in big trouble.

I accept that the CGI is probably a bit out of wack but the styling cues don't look too promising.

[BadMac]

I've seen the car and will be chopping it for Drive soon.

Wheels is right in some bits, but off in others. Overall, pretty close. The shape gives a different feel, though.

Which bits? Glasshouse? Rear quarter? Rear End, Tail lights?

[Road Warrior]

Which bits? Glasshouse? Rear quarter? Rear End, Tail lights?

I would imagine the rear quarters and front bar are way out - the back end looks like the same BA/BF back end and the new car is supposed to have all new sheetmetal, so Wheels are just guessing.

[vecommo]

If that is really how it will look, then what a lousy effort. I seem to recall member 'JEM' endlessly rambling on about how the Orion will redefine automotive design. WHAT A JOKE.

[CalaisOwner]

Its name is an Orion....

thats ironic because it looks like an aurion ie camry.

Someone shoot it.:sux:

IMO the Aurion Sportivo aka Camry V6 is the best rear looking locally manufactured car ATM.

http://aurion.toyota.com.au/toyota/vehicle/Gallery/0,4667,3586_1392_0_1,00.html?Submit=Next

[Super Snake]

I don't think that Ford are that stupid. When the official release comes out, you will see a very good looking Ford.
They know that the VE has been a success for Holden, and they will know how to compete with their GT/F6 and XR8.

But I would love to see a 2 door GT coupe.

[Zombie]

Hmmm.... more than a passing resemblance to the 2007 Mondeo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:2007_Ford_Mondeo_Pre_Launch.jpg

[tuff304]

I can remember when the BA was first launced didnt look that appealing with the CGI images but it is still not a bad looking car IMO

[SCiFiRE]

alot of you will remember the original VE photoshops,
The details were correct, and they were close,
but the proportions and lines were all wrong, which made it look wonky and silly.

Take these pics with a grain of salt, but im sure there is some truth hiding in there somewhere

[Lionking]

[QUOTE=Super Snake;848101]I don't think that Ford are that stupid.

Don't be too sure about that. I'm a ford fan as well as liking holdens. Remember the AU? I started a thread in ford forums saying that Ford is still paying for the AU saga and I was nearly banned! Makes me wanna buy a Holden!!!

[ballbreaker]

If thats the way it look,ill be holding on to my BF F6. AU all over again will they ever learn.

[Lionking]

I agree with u ballbreaker.

[TommyVTss]

thats an extremley odd looking car i dont like it at all they will have stuffed up again just like the AU

[EfiJy]

its a more attractive design than VE

[VQST80]

IMO the Aurion Sportivo aka Camry V6 is the best rear looking locally manufactured car ATM.

http://aurion.toyota.com.au/toyota/vehicle/Gallery/0,4667,3586_1392_0_1,00.html?Submit=Next


Ha ha.
Thats funny mate.
Let me guess, you drive a camry to haha

[lowriding]

bland ,boring and conservative .It looks old already . Liberty/accord cues will be ancient in 2008/2009.same old same old.i thought they were "pushing the envelope" .

[zetaman]

The AU was a flop because it was just ugly.

The Wheels CGI looks ok. I like the design. They'll need to set up export markets or else they'll never compete with Holden or Toyota. Ford, like Holden will also have to shorten their car's lifecycles to be in line with Japanese makers .... 9 years is too long for a body style.

[Brockfan05]

The AU was a flop because it was just ugly.

The Wheels CGI looks ok. I like the design. They'll need to set up export markets or else they'll never compete with Holden or Toyota. Ford, like Holden will also have to shorten their car's lifecycles to be in line with Japanese makers .... 9 years is too long for a body style.

Mistu Evo lancer???? 9 generations of essentially the same shape........

Subaru Impreza??? Bug eyed model came out in '99, still same basic body shape today......

[Holden Man]

Im looking at the August 2005 wheels now with one of the early CGI's (12 months before launch). And I can tell you its not far off, lights were wrong, front bar looks like Omega, front spoiler was way off, rear was good and had SSV taillights. Wheels did have an advantage due to basing it off pics of Torana which in the end was very close to VE.

Yes I remember looking back at those pics after the VE came out and in the end they were pretty close. (very close)

In the end nothing compares to looking at a car in the flesh.

[clixanup]

Its beleived to be a base model as its got no skirts or wings.
A base model with fog/driving lights, mag wheels, chrome trims and chrome exhaust tip?

Yeah. Right. :confused: My guess is that it's a Fairmont Ghia.

[FunkyPig]

Mistu Evo lancer???? 9 generations of essentially the same shape........

Subaru Impreza??? Bug eyed model came out in '99, still same basic body shape today......

They are the exceptions, generally Euro and Jap cars are replaced every five years, or close to it. Holden has said they will shorten VE generation's lifecyle more than the usual 9 or so years to compete. They have to, and so should Ford.

[turbo6]

Oh well, looks okay to me. I am taking it with a grain of salt because they are only "images". I don't need to look at them through tainted glasses - so to speak. Some of the comments here are hilarious!

A lot of you have said, think back to AU. I agree they were UGLY. Anyone noticed the resemblance of the new C series Mercs to the rear end of the AU - uncanny resemblance there! The Ford was just ahead of its time and had the wrong badge on it!:)

[Dacious]

I don't think it's terrible. Certainly far better than the BF II or whatever the current abortion they're selling is. It has a lot of Bondeo in it, which is not a bad thing - and it's styling has some alignment with both the US and Europe.

I'm more concerned that they are holding on to the inline six on the Orion. Whatever it's virtues, as a one-continent motor it just about condemns any chance of export unless the car underneath is able to take a corporate motor.

Unless petrol goes back to <80c/litre and big car sales take off again you'd have to say this is a last-dice-throw for the Falcon, espcially as Fairlane and LTD look as dead as a dodo.

Holden may not be much better off. If Mitsu's 380 4 cylinder doesn't fly, the Camaurion doesn't do better and the Falcon folds, Holden, Ford, Toyo and Mitsu will be mporters in ten years as there won't be any local supplier industry left.

[CV8-RO]

It looks alot like the current Subaru Liberty, nice.
At least they havent tried to make it look like the VE.

[Fnomna]

I've seen the car and will be chopping it for Drive soon.

How soon is soon? :) And how does a 16 year old get to see the car? Lucky bugger!

[csv rulz]

The front has potential but thos headlight ruin it, the back looks like a BF and liberty mated and its there offspring.

Its pretty hard to get an idea of the cars preportions just from those photos.

I will receive judgement till i see official pics

[zetaman]

Mistu Evo lancer???? 9 generations of essentially the same shape........

Subaru Impreza??? Bug eyed model came out in '99, still same basic body shape today......

Yep, still too long. Honda....4 year life cycle.


A lot of you have said, think back to AU. I agree they were UGLY. Anyone noticed the resemblance of the new C series Mercs to the rear end of the AU - uncanny resemblance there! The Ford was just ahead of its time and had the wrong badge on it!:)

That's hilarious! There's no way the AU was "ahead of it's time" in regards to style or could in any way or at any time be mistaken for a MB. While there are some vague similarities in some basic lines from a couple of rear angles, to say it could pass as a MB is drawing a long bow....

[JimmyXR6T04]

like many, i'll reserve my decision for when the car is released. I'm currently holding on to my car till then, and if it's ugly or i don't like it, i'll spend up on a BFII, try and get an F6 run out... that's provided there's any left if the orion is ugly.. everyone will have the same idea :teach:

[monaroCountry1]

I reserve judgement untill I see the car. From that ewwwwww

[gasguz]

I hope this is the car that Ford releases, as it will just show how consistant Ford can be at releasing really ugly cars. You would have thought that with all the money they saved doing just about sweet FA to the updated BF that they could have done more with the new vehicle.

[turbo6]

Yep, still too long. Honda....4 year life cycle.



That's hilarious! There's no way the AU was "ahead of it's time" in regards to style or could in any way or at any time be mistaken for a MB. While there are some vague similarities in some basic lines from a couple of rear angles, to say it could pass as a MB is drawing a long bow....

It was meant as a joke - trust me! I think the C Class Merc is ugly also!

[Danv8]

like many, i'll reserve my decision for when the car is released. I'm currently holding on to my car till then, and if it's ugly or i don't like it, i'll spend up on a BFII, try and get an F6 run out... that's provided there's any left if the orion is ugly.. everyone will have the same idea :teach:

Pretty much sums it up well.
I hope it does look good for Fords sake because basically we need the local competition to be strong and remain that way so we still have local car industries alive.

[LTH-00L]

It's a sad day for the Aussie motor industry! Ford is finished!!! That just looks like a Camry with a bigger motor.. just not built as well!!

Bye Bye Ford Australia!

[Mr Moosh]

Ford Fan commenting on VE: "Holden f'n suck. That's not aussie, that looks like a european car. Haha those wheel arches are a joke. Its bloody ugly."

:p Oh... they've fallen silent.

Can we expect to no longer see Ford Fans bashing the VE's wheel arches cos they know they're heading Falcons way too? :teach: haha

I'm sure it wont look that bad, cos CGI images dont always do justice. BUT if they are spot on... then it will struggle.

[BFXR6]

That image is not it, different front end, no flared guards, and back end is going to be totally different.

[mac06]

That image is not it, different front end, no flared guards, and back end is going to be totally different.

By that I take it you have seen the real deal, have pics, etc. Can you enlighten us more?

[BFXR6]

No pics just heard from a reliable source.

[Danv8]

No pics just heard from a reliable source.

From where?
Or is it a "Reliable source" that you can't say.

[VQST80]

From where?
Or is it a "Reliable source" that you can't say.

haha,
i heard on the fordforums in an offtopic thread.. (the orion hub) hah

sorry, i couldnt help myself

[BFXR6]

Well how much more reliable do you want it :stick: :stick:

[Danv8]

haha,
i heard on the fordforums in an offtopic thread.. (the orion hub) hah

sorry, i couldnt help myself


Ahh the "So called" Reliable source then. :p


Well how much more reliable do you want it :stick: :stick:

So helpful.

[turbo6]

Ford Fan commenting on VE: "Holden f'n suck. That's not aussie, that looks like a european car. Haha those wheel arches are a joke. Its bloody ugly."

:p Oh... they've fallen silent.

Can we expect to no longer see Ford Fans bashing the VE's wheel arches cos they know they're heading Falcons way too? :teach: haha



Mate, don't paint us all as one-eyed bogans.

Geez, you post Holden pictures on a Ford site and the narrow minded hate it because of the badge. You post a picture of a Ford on a Holden site, same rubbish.

I like the new VE HSV's, sensational looking bit of kit. I am sure the new Fords will be just fine - not to give them an early burial because of some mock-up photos and one-eyed criticism.

Take the pictures for what they are. Think of it this way, it is all good competition and we all benefit from the outcome. That simple.

[EddieVE06]

Ok, well my impression of FF has just taken another fall.

Someone has commented that the AU Falcon was so far ahead of its time that if you now compare a VT with the AU that the AU basically craps all over it....:werd:

I've actualy seen the car and this is the best way to describe it. Very nice looking car.
I think I'll see one get built closer to the end of the year....another quote

My brothers friend's sister knows someone high up that told her there is going to be a GT-HO that will be 500kg lighter and do a 10 second quarter mile...and another.:lmao:

[FunkyPig]

Take the pictures for what they are. Think of it this way, it is all good competition and we all benefit from the outcome. That simple.

I wish more people would do that... these are very simplistic pics based on some vague info. Even if the info is thorough, translating that into acurate rendings is another challenge in itself. Falcon will look nothing like that except for some basic themes.

[Danv8]

Ok, well my impression of FF has just taken another fall.

Someone has commented that the AU Falcon was so far ahead of its time that if you now compare a VT with the AU that the AU basically craps all over it....:werd:

I've actualy seen the car and this is the best way to describe it. Very nice looking car.
I think I'll see one get built closer to the end of the year....another quote

My brothers friend's sister knows someone high up that told her there is going to be a GT-HO that will be 500kg lighter and do a 10 second quarter mile...and another.:lmao:


10 second GTHO cool where can I sign up for one ?.
;)
Yeah and my Rodeo has a ferrari built engine. :yahoo: ;)

[FocusRsCosworth]

Of Course the you Holden fans will say those CGI's are s**T,
at the moment the car looks quite decent, from those CGI's

** Get it through ya &^^&&^^ thick heads tho **
Those images are way way off, especially the rear especially the front, and styling will be different. Kudos to Wheels for a good try, but no cigar, and for the extra sales they will get cause of this.
Wait for the final finish, and then lets have a decent chat, if anyones mature enuff to have one.

Also below Orion rumoured Power Figures

GT 320-330kw...
F6 300kw...
XR8 290kw..
XR6T 270kw...
I6 200-220kw...

Intersting times ahead thats all i have to say.:yahoo: :thumbsup: :p
Ford Australia arent that stupid to stuff up since AU... dont be surprised it will look much fresher than the VE...

[VYII_R8]

Seriously guys... some of the people in here REALLY need to grow up!!

They are CGI's - COMPUTER GENERATED IMAGES based on info from who knows where!.....

They are NOT PHOTOS OF ORION!!

Wait until we see some ACTUAL PHOTOS and THEN start slagging off saying how good or crap it is! Geez!

[Mr Moosh]

Ford Fan commenting on VE: "Holden f'n suck. That's not aussie, that looks like a european car. Haha those wheel arches are a joke. Its bloody ugly."

:p Oh... they've fallen silent.

Can we expect to no longer see Ford Fans bashing the VE's wheel arches cos they know they're heading Falcons way too? :teach: haha



Mate, don't paint us all as one-eyed bogans...

Just creating a stir mate... I know not all Ford fans are one eyed ignorant tools, and the same can be said for those backing Holdens.

Those CGI's dont look very good... but its naive to think Ford aren't gonna release something impressive. And by the way, I think the wheel arches on the VE look shit too :p

[FocusRsCosworth]

Seriously guys... some of the people in here REALLY need to grow up!!

They are CGI's - COMPUTER GENERATED IMAGES based on info from who knows where!.....

They are NOT PHOTOS OF ORION!!

Wait until we see some ACTUAL PHOTOS and THEN start slagging off saying how good or crap it is! Geez!


Im glad someones got some sense to realise that its not the real deal..

[mac06]

Of Course the you Holden fans will say those CGI's are s**T,
at the moment the car looks quite decent, from those CGI's

** Get it through ya &^^&&^^ thick heads tho **
Those images are way way off, especially the rear especially the front, and styling will be different. Kudos to Wheels for a good try, but no cigar, and for the extra sales they will get cause of this.
Wait for the final finish, and then lets have a decent chat, if anyones mature enuff to have one.

Also below Orion rumoured Power Figures

GT 320-330kw...
F6 300kw...
XR8 290kw..
XR6T 270kw...
I6 200-220kw...

Intersting times ahead thats all i have to say.:yahoo: :thumbsup: :p
Ford Australia arent that stupid to stuff up since AU... dont be surprised it will look much fresher than the VE...

How can both the front and the rear be "way off" and at the same time a good try on the part of Wheels?:werd:

By the way, all Australian automotive manufacturers need to succeed for the whole industry to continue in Oz, so from that aspect I hope Ford gets it right. Much as I'm a Holden man through and through, them's the facts.

No one intends to stuff up, but you will never know for sure until the vehicle hits the showrooms. Can't see how it will be so much fresher than VE though, it's been a limited budget in comparison and only a face lift really.

[Greeny34]

You cant go off those pics .. I'll reserve judgement till I see one in the flesh.

Even though I'm a Holden person and always have been .. Ford make a fantastic product. Personally I have never really got into their XR's and the other models but the FPV's are a different story.
They always look great.

If I was a Ford fan then I wouldnt be worried. They'll come through and to be honest I hope they come out with a ripper and keep raising the bar.

We the customers (in both camps) are the big winners ;)

[VQST80]

By the way, all Australian automotive manufacturers need to succeed for the whole industry to continue in Oz, so from that aspect I hope Ford gets it right. Much as I'm a Holden man through and through, them's the facts.


Damn straight macca..

Australians build good cars, thats the best thing.
I would much rather the choice of 15 manufactures than 5.

[BadMac]

Here are 2 posts from UNV7 (JEM?) from FAF. Maybe explains were some people are heading with there "inside source" comments. The word from all the forums I partcipate in is "wheels are close but have some things wrong which throws the look off" but its very close and a good attempt.


Guys

It's a good effort by Wheels but i can say that they still have it wrong in areas that will affect the styling significantly.

Just wait for a more accurate interpretation before swinging the axe. The rear is off by a fair way, the front is off quite a bit and the wheel arched are completely off.

From what i recall, the real thing is quite a bit more appealing and detailed that these cgi's, and to be honest, i still don't mind their effort.


It's not that the wheels cgi's are completely off, they're not. The styling themes are there and are correct, it's the finer detail that will highlight the new styling theme.

for example the headlight treatment if i recall correctly are more like the Honda's with the larger diameter lamp on the inside and a smaller diameter on the outer.

The rear lights wrap around the qtr panel more IIRC also with a dip on the rear boot face.

The fine details are usually lost in time (my memory)...

[Ghia351]

How soon is soon? :) And how does a 16 year old get to see the car? Lucky bugger!
I was wondering the same thing considering only those on the line saw the first builds travel down and currently all mules are only running at the You Yangs while it's still a few weeks before testing up north takes place.....or are you not really 16?

[EfiJy]

good grief falcon is a failure given teh cgis

some peeps are puting a nail in fords coffin from a magazines rendering tch tch tch

[Lloyd1986]

Dont forget the original VE CGI thing didnt look very good, those CGI things never do. Just wait, im sure it will look alot better

[Fnomna]

I was wondering the same thing considering only those on the line saw the first builds travel down and currently all mules are only running at the You Yangs while it's still a few weeks before testing up north takes place.....or are you not really 16?

I don't doubt geary is 16
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=939298#post939298
and has a fair bit of talent too - almost as good as our friend MonaroSS. :)


Dont forget the original VE CGI thing didnt look very good, those CGI things never do. Just wait, im sure it will look alot better

hmm..geary also did the renders for Drive 4 months before the VE.
http://www.cgiautomotive.com/cars/holden-render-ss.htm
That looks spot on.

[VYII_R8]

hmm..geary also did the renders for Drive 4 months before the VE.
http://www.cgiautomotive.com/cars/holden-render-ss.htm
That looks spot on.

Hmm yes, but wasnt that render generated from an ACTUAL image? (Remember the VE with the checkerboard exterior? I'm not sure 100&#37; sure on this though...)

There has been no ACTUAL Orion image... just talk of possible shapes, dimensions, etc that have led to the CGI of the "possible" look of Orion.

If geary has actually seen the car with his own eyes, then that is a different story.

[zetaman]

It was meant as a joke - trust me! I think the C Class Merc is ugly also!

Ah yes sarcasm..... It can be elusive sometimes ;)

[geary]

How soon is soon? :) And how does a 16 year old get to see the car? Lucky bugger!

Haha... I can't really say.

I can say that they are close with the arches, the grille, the lights but the details are lacking.

It seems they have put some elements of the XR bodykit, but left some off.

And how soon? Pretty soon. It'll be similar to the VE launch on Drive last year which you guys loved so much. :cussing:


Hmm yes, but wasnt that render generated from an ACTUAL image? (Remember the VE with the checkerboard exterior? I'm not sure 100&#37; sure on this though...)

Yeah, well I got the base from a bunch of images, but we had to flesh out a majority of the details. I really stuffed up the crease, which was a shame.

And I will say this: I am looking at the car now, well, its a click away.

[jas_the_ace]

Now... geary. Let me VNC into your computer :p

[chrism697]

Haha... I can't really say.

I can say that they are close with the arches, the grille, the lights but the details are lacking.

It seems they have put some elements of the XR bodykit, but left some off.

And how soon? Pretty soon. It'll be similar to the VE launch on Drive last year which you guys loved so much. :cussing:



Yeah, well I got the base from a bunch of images, but we had to flesh out a majority of the details. I really stuffed up the crease, which was a shame.

And I will say this: I am looking at the car now, well, its a click away.
Im assuming you have signed a confidentiality agreement, as everyone in the industry does, id just be careful about what and how much you say!

Im not having a go at anyone but that’s just my thoughts

[Ghia351]

Im assuming you have signed a confidentiality agreement, as everyone in the industry does, id just be careful about what and how much you say!

Im not having a go at anyone but that’s just my thoughts
I'd love information as well but just be careful geary as Ford have investigators currently looking around...trust me.

[geary]

Yes, I wont say much more. Good thinking fellas.

[Super Snake]

Im assuming you have signed a confidentiality agreement, as everyone in the industry does, id just be careful about what and how much you say!

Im not having a go at anyone but that’s just my thoughts

Yes he would have if he has access to a certain area there. He is treading on thin ice !

[chrism697]

Yes he would have if he has access to a certain area there. He is treading on thin ice !
Wasn’t someone here posting details about model line-up etc of VE before it was released? I remember hearing about it and did a search but never found anything

[jamesd]

They really screwed that up.. The front axel/wheels will be alot futher foward, and the whole front will be much longer too. They've got it set up like a FWD car, idiots.

They just chopped up a new Mondeo. Remember that Audi like Falcon wheels (or was it motor?) came up with! :lol:

Oh, and they're going to be dropping the Barra I6 if I remember correctly. Great engine, but apparently it was too unsafe for front collisions, too long and all that jazz. I think a Duratec V6 is going in there.

[chrism697]

personally id lose my job if i put any details like that on the internet (stuff like model features etc) hahah

[SteveK]

IMO the Aurion Sportivo aka Camry V6 is the best rear looking locally manufactured car ATM.

http://aurion.toyota.com.au/toyota/vehicle/Gallery/0,4667,3586_1392_0_1,00.html?Submit=Next

He likes big butts and he cannot lie...
You other brothers can't deny...
When an Aurion rolls in
with a tiny en-gine
and a round thing in your face
you get stung...

Sorry, first thought that came to me. :serenade:

Agree with others though, hard to go off those pics. As long as they carry over the current DNA that made the BA/BF such an improvement over the AU then it should be good.

Cheers,
Steve

[flappist]

Haha... I can't really say.

I can say that they are close with the arches, the grille, the lights but the details are lacking.

It seems they have put some elements of the XR bodykit, but left some off.

And how soon? Pretty soon. It'll be similar to the VE launch on Drive last year which you guys loved so much. :cussing:



Yeah, well I got the base from a bunch of images, but we had to flesh out a majority of the details. I really stuffed up the crease, which was a shame.

And I will say this: I am looking at the car now, well, its a click away.

Now geary, lets see if I can work out who you are.....

16, schoolie in Sydney with access "just a click away" to orion graphics.
You live with one of your relations who is in Sydney (obviously) and has access to the pics (obviously) so they are probably in the promotional area as in one of the advertising, brochure or documentation areas.
So all I have to do, if I were Ford, is to hunt down all those in Sydney who have access to the pics and find out who has a 16 yo son/brother.

Of course you could be lying in your profile and you are actually a 12 year old girl from Melbourne.......

I wonder if Ford are being clever and making each set of pics slightly different do if one turns up then it will be easy to identify where the leak was?

And when your father/brother is sacked and then made unemployable by your efforts and his employer black banned how long will it be before you are missed and your mangled body with a computer "inserted" is found in a shallow grave?

Be careful.......

[Danv8]

Now geary, lets see if I can work out who you are.....

16, schoolie in Sydney with access "just a click away" to orion graphics.
You live with one of your relations who is in Sydney (obviously) and has access to the pics (obviously) so they are probably in the promotional area as in one of the advertising, brochure or documentation areas.
So all I have to do, if I were Ford, is to hunt down all those in Sydney who have access to the pics and find out who has a 16 yo son/brother.

Of course you could be lying in your profile and you are actually a 12 year old girl from Melbourne.......

I wonder if Ford are being clever and making each set of pics slightly different do if one turns up then it will be easy to identify where the leak was?

And when your father/brother is sacked and then made unemployable by your efforts and his employer black banned how long will it be before you are missed and your mangled body with a computer "inserted" is found in a shallow grave?

Be careful.......

LOL.
I hope you dont need a horses head Flappist. :)

[BadMac]

I have borrowed this from FAF forum, it shows something I saw straight away, ie I think Wheels started with VE to model their CGI. What do you all think. Too much of a stretch???


http://picsorban.com/upload/falcon orion cgi 2.jpg
http://picsorban.com/upload/gold calais-v front side.jpg
http://picsorban.com/upload/falcon orion cgi 4.jpg
http://picsorban.com/upload/gold calais-v rear.jpg

[X BC X]

i was thinking along the same lines BadMac ;)
you have now confirmed my suspicions, in my mind at least...

[Road Warrior]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll need to think about that one some more. I can see what you mean though. Tell you what though, that sketch done by forum user Inline6 on FFAU looks great.

[SteveK]

I have borrowed this from FAF forum, it shows something I saw straight away, ie I think Wheels started with VE to model their CGI. What do you all think. Too much of a stretch???

Totally agree. That was the first thing I spotted and thought "That looks awfully like a VE". Not that the Orion is going to look like the VE, but that they used the VE as the platform for the CG effort.

S.

[Ghia351]

I agree completely with your assumption Badmac...and it explains why I nolonger buy Wheels/Motor.......

[Carby]

I reckon the Orion, as depicted, looks quite good. It is a modern contemporary design that won't offend. Even as a CGI it is far better looking than the Camry/Aurion. The more I see these two cars on the road the more bland they have already become.

Early days of course and I hope for the local industries sake, the Orion is a successful car. Though in this regard all the local large car manufacturers will be up against it - small to medium cars and SUV's seem to be the trend at the moment.

[Mikey]

Oh, and they're going to be dropping the Barra I6 if I remember correctly. Great engine, but apparently it was too unsafe for front collisions, too long and all that jazz. I think a Duratec V6 is going in there.

Can you elaborate a little more?

If this is true, this will be a big shift in Falcon psyche. It also will be hard for Ford to sell this concept to the diehards.

And what about the inline turbo 6 legacy? Will it fall the same way as the VL turbo?

Didn’t the Government only just grant Ford Aus 12 months ago $100 million to develop the inline 6 further to meet even tighter emission as well?

Unless you know something concrete about this (and you certainly may do) I think this could have serious repercussions for Ford Aus, even if it is a good reliable and economical V6 setup.

[HSVMAN]

Can you elaborate a little more?

If this is true, this will be a big shift in Falcon psyche. It also will be hard for Ford to sell this concept to the diehards.

And what about the inline turbo 6 legacy? Will it fall the same way as the VL turbo?

Didn’t the Government only just grant Ford Aus 12 months ago $100 million to develop the inline 6 further to meet even tighter emission as well?

Unless you know something concrete about this (and you certainly may do) I think this could have serious repercussions for Ford Aus, even if it is a good reliable and economical V6 setup.

I suggested this last year to the dismay and protest of the diehards. Imagine, if they are using the same platform (which they are) AND engine, how they can abide by all of the following:
pedestrian impact safety, occupant crash protection, reduce front weight overhang and still provide big car interior space?
Somewhere there has to be concessions and sacrifices. Either that, or fit a V6 engine.....
Personally, I think they will change the engine soon regardless. Can you see the current ageing unit last another 6 or 7 years?

[Lionking]

um the current 'aging engine' is better than the six in the VE. If it aint broke......

[HSVMAN]

um the current 'aging engine' is better than the six in the VE. If it aint broke......

LOL thats an argument you cant win on here so dont bother it goes nowhere.
Dont be offended when I call the Ford six ageing cos it is. Whilst it is an excellent example of engineering and modern technology mixed with old, it is still a heavy cast iron weight slung over the front axle. Simple logic and dynamics here. Its not so much a need for fixing anything but providing a modern design.
I really hope they build a competitive car and they really need to because lets face it sales are dismal for them right now

[VYII_R8]

LOL thats an argument you cant win on here so dont bother it goes nowhere.
Dont be offended when I call the Ford six ageing cos it is. Whilst it is an excellent example of engineering and modern technology mixed with old, it is still a heavy cast iron weight slung over the front axle. Simple logic and dynamics here. Its not so much a need for fixing anything but providing a modern design.
I really hope they build a competitive car and they really need to because lets face it sales are dismal for them right now

Erm.. while it may be ageing, it is smoother, and returns better fuel economy than the Holden HFV6 unit.

An inline 6 will ALWAYS be smoother than an EQUIVALENT V6 engine. Just because its inline doesn't mean it is old. The only thing "old" about the Barra I6 is the block - the heads, cams, valve train, and vct phasers are all new. Ford choose to stick with the cast iron block for its rigidity at high rpm and also the resultant improvement in NVH characteristics due to this rigidity. Note how the new HFV6 was slammed for its roughness when new? This is purely a function of its "V" design and its aluminium casing.

SO... if it ain't broke....

[Danv8]

The I6 vs V6 bullplop has been done to death 10 times over.

Its the V8's is all I am interested in. :p

[VYII_R8]

The I6 vs V6 bullplop has been done to death 10 times over.

Its the V8's is all I am interested in. :p

I know mate i know... I'm the same.... Thats why I got the clubby :thumbsup:

[Road Warrior]

Erm.. while it may be ageing, it is smoother, and returns better fuel economy than the Holden HFV6 unit.

Ford choose to stick with the cast iron block for its rigidity at high rpm and also the resultant improvement in NVH characteristics due to this rigidity.


...and also because Ford own their own smelter and casting plant and they can make the blocks for cheap.

I think that they should make the investment and move to an alloy block I6, and they just might do it with the handout they got from the Govt last year. In any event, I cant see the I6 being canned anytime soon.

[Holden Man]

He likes big butts and he cannot lie...
You other brothers can't deny...
When an Aurion rolls in
with a tiny en-gine
and a round thing in your face
you get stung...

Cheers,
Steve

That's gold mate ! love it (had me singing along)

[HSVMAN]

Erm.. while it may be ageing, it is smoother, and returns better fuel economy than the Holden HFV6 unit.
SO... if it ain't broke....

As I said not interested in which is best - thats your opinion - just stating same facts Ford's designers discuss. Except we dont know the answers yet

[VYII_R8]

As I said not interested in which is best - thats your opinion - just stating same facts Ford's designers discuss. Except we dont know the answers yet

Erm actually no... it's not my opinion, it is:
FACT is the BarraI6 is smoother than the HFV6.
FACT is the Barra I6 returns better fuel economy than the HFV6.

They facts... not opinion. Just wanted to clear that up. :teach:

[Lionking]

Erm actually no... it's not my opinion, it is:
FACT is the BarraI6 is smoother than the HFV6.
FACT is the Barra I6 returns better fuel economy than the HFV6.

They facts... not opinion. Just wanted to clear that up. :teach:

Exactly!!! Facts are different to opinions. Unless you think a rougher engine and one that uses more fuel is better, it is clear which is the superior engine and your opinion (anyone's for that matter), can't change that. It's like saying that the AU series 1 forte is a matter of personal taste. FACT: it is ugly!!! Can't argue with facts. Even tho this is a holden forum, we should still be able to admit when the opposition has the superior product. That is called....maturity

[Holden Man]

Wheels claims that the Orion will be unchanged from BA/BF platform from the sills down. This means basically the same chasis and rear suspension (which was pretty good anyway). It will get a new front end though. They say it will keep the I6 and ZF gearbox.

Wheels also states that the Cadillac's new V6 (around 225kw and much smoother / refined) will most llikely end up in the commodore. Mooney said it could happen within 2 years. Around the Orion release maybe ?

[clixanup]

Erm actually no... it's not my opinion, it is:
FACT is the BarraI6 is smoother than the HFV6.
FACT is the Barra I6 returns better fuel economy than the HFV6.

They facts... not opinion. Just wanted to clear that up. :teach:
Just so you know, you're arguing with a Holden salesman (HSVMAN that is...) .

Don't be surprised if you get mental images of him lying on the ground in the foetal position with his fingers in his ears, rocking back and forth, saying "LALALALA" ...

P.S. Don't mention the Falcon's split/fold rear seat. Or that they've had it for almost 20 years. Or that Holden are the ONLY local manufacturer to STILL not offer this extremely handy feature.

[SteveK]

It's like saying that the AU series 1 forte is a matter of personal taste. FACT: it is ugly!!! Can't argue with facts.

:lmao:

They should use that explanation in primary school to teach kids the difference between fact and fiction. :D

I remember a great joke from years ago...

A young boy is on a street corner with a little stall selling dried cow patties in the shape of little biscuits for $2 each. He calls out to passers by "Facts, facts for sale, get your facts right here". A business man walks up to him "You're an enterprising young chap, I'll have one of those". So he buys one and proceeds to bite into the patty. "Struth, this stuff takes like s@#t".

The young boy replies "That's a fact".

Steve.

[Freaky]

P.S. Don't mention the Falcon's split/fold rear seat. Or that they've had it for almost 20 years. Or that Holden are the ONLY local manufacturer to STILL not offer this extremely handy feature.

Lol. This discussion has come up before. This is not a valued feature according to most on this site and is overrated.:doh:

[gasguz]

Erm.. while it may be ageing, it is smoother, and returns better fuel economy than the Holden HFV6 unit.

An inline 6 will ALWAYS be smoother than an EQUIVALENT V6 engine. Just because its inline doesn't mean it is old. The only thing "old" about the Barra I6 is the block - the heads, cams, valve train, and vct phasers are all new. Ford choose to stick with the cast iron block for its rigidity at high rpm and also the resultant improvement in NVH characteristics due to this rigidity. Note how the new HFV6 was slammed for its roughness when new? This is purely a function of its "V" design and its aluminium casing.

SO... if it ain't broke....

LOL, seems they have taken the if it aint broke attitude since the AspU model, as not much has changed from the BA through to BF. It more comes down to giving your punter some reason to buy a new car against 1 that is 5 years old that looks almost identical.

[Holden Man]

LOL, seems they have taken the if it aint broke attitude since the AspU model, as not much has changed from the BA through to BF. It more comes down to giving your punter some reason to buy a new car against 1 that is 5 years old that looks almost identical.

Or not having much money left to add anything new to the range.

[Lionking]

Or not having much money left to add anything new to the range.

U hit the nail right on the head. Ford don't have enough money to do anything like what Holden did to the VE. Orion will be a reskin, not a totally new platform. Much like the XC to XD falcon. That was a reskin too. But tell that to the general public and they'll think it's all new.

[Holden Man]

U hit the nail right on the head. Ford don't have enough money to do anything like what Holden did to the VE. Orion will be a reskin, not a totally new platform. Much like the XC to XD falcon. That was a reskin too. But tell that to the general public and they'll think it's all new.

They spent alot of money on the BA (had to as AU was a disaster) and bought forward a few things which were for Orion (suspension, gearbox etc).

I don't think that the Orion will be a big as step as the BA was to AU.

[SCiFiRE]

i think the argument on holdens side of the fence is
FACT: V6 has a smaller footprint than I6,
FACT: smaller footprint allows for easier packaging for room, safety and weight distribution.

Crappy, better for the company not the customer, an these are the same arguments that send most of the US to front-wheel-drive (easier to package for room/safety)....

*shrugs* but like most others here, 6cyl means very little to me. Im a holden man.

[Road Warrior]

U hit the nail right on the head. Ford don't have enough money to do anything like what Holden did to the VE. Orion will be a reskin, not a totally new platform. Much like the XC to XD falcon. That was a reskin too. But tell that to the general public and they'll think it's all new.

I reckon Ford are tightasses. They only spend up big on a model if they really really have to. There was tightarsed-ness with the BA-BF transition (looks the same car) and with other models before it. The BF is still a good car, but its looks were going to age fairly rapidly once new models from its competitors started coming out. And now they're scratching their heads going woe is me wondering why its sales are plummetting.

I think Orion will be more than a reskin. Sure, it will retain the same rear suspension and floorpan, but I think they will be using the Territory's forward-pivot front end and adapting the front end for possible LHD - some huge engineering changes required there. Also, with the BA, they were constrained with what they could do with the car, as every change they made to the platform had to be able to be accommodated within the AU's floorpan and passenger cell. The new car wont have that problem.


They spent alot of money on the BA (had to as AU was a disaster) and bought forward a few things which were for Orion (suspension, gearbox etc).


Yeah I heard about that too. As I recall people asked at the time if the AU was gonna get scrapped coz it was so shit and wasnt selling, and Polites said no, the next all new Falcoon wasnt due until '08 and was still in early development, so the revision of the AU was going to be just that, a revision, albeit a huge one and it incorporated things which were originally intended for Orion but were brought forward to save the Falcon's bacon (like the swanky interior, the DOHC six and the control blade IRS).

[Lionking]

*shrugs* but like most others here, 6cyl means very little to me. Im a holden man.[/QUOTE]

yeah but 6cyl means a lot to Holden. It's the bread and butter when it comes to sales. V8s are fine for us enthusiasts but the majority of sales of Holdens and Fords are 6cyl.

[EfiJy]

I reckon Ford are tightasses. They only spend up big on a model if they really really have to. There was tightarsed-ness with the BA-BF transition (looks the same car) and with other models before it. The BF is still a good car, but its looks were going to age fairly rapidly once new models from its competitors started coming out. And now they're scratching their heads going woe is me wondering why its sales are plummetting.

I think Orion will be more than a reskin. Sure, it will retain the same rear suspension and floorpan, but I think they will be using the Territory's forward-pivot front end and adapting the front end for possible LHD - some huge engineering changes required there. Also, with the BA, they were constrained with what they could do with the car, as every change they made to the platform had to be able to be accommodated within the AU's floorpan and passenger cell. The new car wont have that problem.



Yeah I heard about that too. As I recall people asked at the time if the AU was gonna get scrapped coz it was so shit and wasnt selling, and Polites said no, the next all new Falcoon wasnt due until '08 and was still in early development, so the revision of the AU was going to be just that, a revision, albeit a huge one and it incorporated things which were originally intended for Orion but were brought forward to save the Falcon's bacon (like the swanky interior, the DOHC six and the control blade IRS).

i tend to agee. my old man stopped buying faclons a long time ago.ford used to be waay better than holden but now im not so sure. the falcons quality is indiffferent adn the aftersales is crap. the au almost killed the company because ford couldnt change the car quickly enough and thats when ford america was making a lot of money. what makes us think ford will be any better now that ford america is almost broke.

sad

[Venom XR]

You guys crack me up! :)

[Lionking]

You guys crack me up! :)

in what way exactly?

[Ghia351]

Wheels claims that the Orion will be unchanged from BA/BF platform from the sills down. This means basically the same chasis and rear suspension (which was pretty good anyway). It will get a new front end though. They say it will keep the I6 and ZF gearbox.

Wheels also states that the Cadillac's new V6 (around 225kw and much smoother / refined) will most llikely end up in the commodore. Mooney said it could happen within 2 years. Around the Orion release maybe ?
It was like pulling teeth out of a chicken trying to find out however I think Orion is due in March '08, MMS time and if not then, just before SMS at the latest...March is still the plan.

As to the Caddy version, do you know what are the major differences to the current VE 195kW engine?

[Venom XR]

in what way exactly?


:jester: :vpo: :bawl: :lol: :shiner: :teach: :p :stick: :clown: :box: :nono:

All ways really. :)

[gasguz]

You guys crack me up! :)

I find it ironic that you would find amusing all the talk about the upcoming new ford model here on ls1.com.au. Have you forgotten that this is a Holden forum & while there might be some positive comments about the ford, why would you expect the majority of posts to be anything but negative about this car. What cracks me up is all of the ford owners who prowl about this site & cry about all of the negative talk about the car they decide to drive. Are you also saying that over on the flawed forums that there is no negative talk about the HSV/Commodore range??

Cmon relax, it is not your fault that the BA-BF models all look the same:stick:

[all4ford]

Cmon relax, it is not your fault that the BA-BF models all look the same:stick:Reminds me of VT to VX actually or VY to VZ.

[CharlieDontSurf]

It was like pulling teeth out of a chicken trying to find out however I think Orion is due in March '08, MMS time and if not then, just before SMS at the latest...March is still the plan.

As to the Caddy version, do you know what are the major differences to the current VE 195kW engine?

Direct injection will be the big change for the HFV6. We will definately see it on VE and it will have good fuel consumption figures too. Hopefully the light duty THM 6 speed auto will be in the V6's by then. All depends if its cheaper than the french made 5 speed I guess

[gasguz]

Reminds me of VT to VX actually or VY to VZ.

LOL, are you kidding me, VT/VZ diff engines introduced both V6 & V8 (4 diff V8 engines alone inc HSV), each model gets a power upgrade in both Tourqe & Kw, diff headlights & front bar treatment, diff rear taillights & centre garnish, revised suspension & most importantly different bodykits. Complete sheetmetal change from VX to VY with front guards, bonnet, rear quaters & boot. Look at a VT SS, VX SS VY SS & VZ SS, they each have individual changes between the models. Now look at the BA XR anything & the BF XR anything. They are exactly the same. Oh yeah I forgot to throw in the COMPLETE change of interior between the VX & VY update. Since 1999 we have had VT/VX/VY/VZ & now the ALL NEW & mighty VE, with each model having mechanical & visual changes between the models. While the 6 year old (or is it 7?) BA looks pretty damn like the brandspankers BF. There are more but you can see what I mean. At the end of the day my passion is Holden while yours is Flawed. Each to their own :driving:
Cheers

[Ghia351]

LOL, are you kidding me, VT/VZ diff engines introduced both V6 & V8 (4 diff V8 engines alone inc HSV), each model gets a power upgrade in both Tourqe & Kw, diff headlights & front bar treatment, diff rear taillights & centre garnish, revised suspension & most importantly different bodykits. Complete sheetmetal change from VX to VY with front guards, bonnet, rear quaters & boot. Look at a VT SS, VX SS VY SS & VZ SS, they each have individual changes between the models. Now look at the BA XR anything & the BF XR anything. They are exactly the same. Oh yeah I forgot to throw in the COMPLETE change of interior between the VX & VY update. Since 1999 we have had VT/VX/VY/VZ & now the ALL NEW & mighty VE, with each model having mechanical & visual changes between the models. While the 6 year old (or is it 7?) BA looks pretty damn like the brandspankers BF. There are more but you can see what I mean. At the end of the day my passion is Holden while yours is Flawed. Each to their own :driving:
Cheers
I think the original post was referring to changes between VT to VX and between VY to VZ only while BA started selling in late '02 so it will be 5 years by Sept '07 while VT to VZ is closer to 8 years is it not?

[Venom XR]

I find it ironic that you would find amusing all the talk about the upcoming new ford model here on ls1.com.au. Have you forgotten that this is a Holden forum & while there might be some positive comments about the ford, why would you expect the majority of posts to be anything but negative about this car. What cracks me up is all of the ford owners who prowl about this site & cry about all of the negative talk about the car they decide to drive. Are you also saying that over on the flawed forums that there is no negative talk about the HSV/Commodore range??

Cmon relax, it is not your fault that the BA-BF models all look the same:stick:

Look, I've been on this forum longer than a lot of Holden fans - I've known Sidewindr for years. I'm a car person. Some of the ls1.com.au people are too. Some of the Holden guys post on ff.com.au, there are a select group that don't see the need to apply red/blue goggles every single post. ff.com.au is just as bad when it comes to zealots, no arguement there.

My finding this thread amusing was due to it being riddled with juvenile rubbish, a load of errors and only a small smattering of common sense - from both sides of the fence. Finding it amusing was a lot easier than trying to make sense and reply to any of it.

[chrism697]

what makes us think ford will be any better now that ford america is almost broke.

sad

true.....but GM is in worse shape than Ford!!!

[gasguz]

I think the original post was referring to changes between VT to VX and between VY to VZ only while BA started selling in late '02 so it will be 5 years by Sept '07 while VT to VZ is closer to 8 years is it not?

Oh I see your point, ford has released 2 models in 5 years, while Holden has released 4 in the same time frame. (VX-VE)

Can I just add that between VT-VX SS the V8 engine was changed as was the front & rear bumpers, headlights & taillights, sideskirts, boot spoiler, centre garnish, wheels, SS logo which followed through to the interior embroided onto the seats, all fabrics changed, 3 power upgrades in this time frame for the V8, rear susupension upgrade on series 2 VX, interior changes also on the series 2 VX. There are more but it is getting silly. Even if you take the VT/VX & then the VY/VZ cars alone, there was a major change in both visual & interior mods beween these groups, while the BA/BF have not been given the same . A VX SS looks nothing like a VZ SS & a VZ SS looks nothing like a VE SS, cant say the same for a BA XR & the BF XR, You cant deny that (but you probably will anyway)

[Dacious]

true.....but GM is in worse shape than Ford!!!

Err, guess again. GM is actually experiencing retail sales increases in America, and GM Daewoo (yeah you know, that shitty Korean car company everyone likes to pan) virtually doubled sales and profits in nearly every market from Asia to Europe to America last year, Australia included. Ford meanwhile is saying the 13% drop in January retail sales in the US is 'not as bad as expected......'

They've even resurrected the Taurus nameplate after replacing it last year with the '500' which is their Falcon, admitting nobody knew what to buy once the Taurus was gone (!) Needless to say, 500 sales are described as 'disappointing'.

Ford is also looking at more plant closures and layoffs than GM in the US, and selling off a profitable divison that's kicking goals like Aston Martin is not the action of a confident company. Ford's bad news came after GM's but in proportional terms it's worse.

Saying GM US is in worse shape than Ford US is like saying sailing on the Titanic is better than sailing on the Lusitania..... At least that ship made more than one voyage.

[chrism697]

Err, guess again. GM is actually experiencing retail sales increases in America, and GM Daewoo (yeah you know, that shitty Korean car company everyone likes to pan) virtually doubled sales and profits in nearly every market from Asia to Europe to America last year, Australia included. Ford meanwhile is saying the 13% drop in January retail sales in the US is 'not as bad as expected......'

They've even resurrected the Taurus nameplate after replacing it last year with the '500' which is their Falcon, admitting nobody knew what to buy once the Taurus was gone (!) Needless to say, 500 sales are described as 'disappointing'.

Ford is also looking at more plant closures and layoffs than GM in the US, and selling off a profitable divison that's kicking goals like Aston Martin is not the action of a confident company. Ford's bad news came after GM's but in proportional terms it's worse.

Saying GM US is in worse shape than Ford US is like saying sailing on the Titanic is better than sailing on the Lusitania..... At least that ship made more than one voyage.
GM are more likely to file for chapter 11 in the near future than Ford. That’s what experts are saying…………I wouldn’t want to be on either “ship” right now

[Holden Man]

I spose a good reason for Ford to keep the inline 6 is the fact that there is more space for a turbo setup. Don't forget the turbo is ford's weapon at the moment.

The V6 in VE has very little space for such a setup hence Holden are looking at supercharging again (which will help it's lack of good fat torque).

GM's new 3.6L HFV6 has direct injection as it's main difference to ours. Put's out around 300hp and 370nm of torque (not bad for n/a 6). Will be more fuel effiecent than our current 6.
There is also a new Hydra-Matic 6L50 six-speed automatic to go with it. Both are to be seen in Cadillac this year and Commodore in 2 years.

see below >
http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/12750/2003648042965839660_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003648042965839660)

[Venom XR]

Which experts? GM as a car company is in better shape than Ford I'd wager. The only thing Ford has that GM no longer has is a financial arm that can prop up the manufacturing business as GM sold GMAC.

[nang3]

LOL, seems they have taken the if it aint broke attitude since the AspU model, as not much has changed from the BA through to BF. It more comes down to giving your punter some reason to buy a new car against 1 that is 5 years old that looks almost identical.

well i guess if it isnt broke and still matches the latest offerings from other manufacturers then theres no point in a major upgrade until the time comes when the competition releases a superior product


I find it ironic that you would find amusing all the talk about the upcoming new ford model here on ls1.com.au. Have you forgotten that this is a Holden forum & while there might be some positive comments about the ford, why would you expect the majority of posts to be anything but negative about this car. What cracks me up is all of the ford owners who prowl about this site & cry about all of the negative talk about the car they decide to drive. Are you also saying that over on the flawed forums that there is no negative talk about the HSV/Commodore range??

Cmon relax, it is not your fault that the BA-BF models all look the same:stick:

HAHA good post!! i come here to see firstly whats new in the holden camp (because i like all performance cars in general) and secondly to have a laugh at what blatant one eyed drivel a percentage (a minority but a vocal one) of the holden diehards say about the ford product... some of its pretty funny, like guys saying they kill xr6t's and typhoons all day long in their VT SS's with the A/C on, but most people here respect the Ford turbo 6's cause they like performance cars in general regardless of badge

[chrism697]

Which experts? GM as a car company is in better shape than Ford I'd wager. The only thing Ford has that GM no longer has is a financial arm that can prop up the manufacturing business as GM sold GMAC.


just what i had read in news articles etc......plus what we have been told by managers here at work, as both holden and ford impact us a huge amount

that being said this was all about 12 months ago, perhaps GM have done a better job in starting to turn the tide,

but all in all i dont think either are in great shape at the moment

[Ghia351]

Oh I see your point, ford has released 2 models in 5 years, while Holden has released 4 in the same time frame. (VX-VE)

Can I just add that between VT-VX SS the V8 engine was changed as was the front & rear bumpers, headlights & taillights, sideskirts, boot spoiler, centre garnish, wheels, SS logo which followed through to the interior embroided onto the seats, all fabrics changed, 3 power upgrades in this time frame for the V8, rear susupension upgrade on series 2 VX, interior changes also on the series 2 VX. There are more but it is getting silly. Even if you take the VT/VX & then the VY/VZ cars alone, there was a major change in both visual & interior mods beween these groups, while the BA/BF have not been given the same . A VX SS looks nothing like a VZ SS & a VZ SS looks nothing like a VE SS, cant say the same for a BA XR & the BF XR, You cant deny that (but you probably will anyway)Only an idiot would deny the obvious however it's obvious that Ford, through lack of funds have gone for the alternate mechanical and cosmetic change and in all honesty would a completely restyled BF over BA have made for a sudden leap in sales...the VE is the best Commodore yet and most likely the best Aussie designed and built car at the moment (apart from a V6 that still needs some tweeking) and yet it sells less then the VT, VX, VY and VZ....that is the real problem for Aussie manufactures regardless of how many updates and new bumper changes a car recieves and no-one can deny that.

[EfiJy]

true.....but GM is in worse shape than Ford!!!

making stattement s like that without proof doesnt say much. i really would like you to prove that ford is doing better than gm $$$. :serenade: plesae prove me wrong

[Dacious]

Which experts? GM as a car company is in better shape than Ford I'd wager. The only thing Ford has that GM no longer has is a financial arm that can prop up the manufacturing business as GM sold GMAC.

I saw a financial profile om the Ford family on Bloomberg or one of the cable finance channels that said the family used to just stump up a $100m here or there out of their family foundation built up from Henry's fortune. They never borrowed capital for anything. Money came out to build factories and finance R&D and went in from profits.

They had enough fat that a few lean years here and there like the 70's oil crisis barely bothered them.

Now, for the first time they're having to borrow from financial institutions in the US for capitalised projects.

[all4ford]

I'll admit its pretty weak from Ford, but when i was speaking, I was talking solely about the actual look of the cars to the average person. An average person wouldn't pick the differences between VT and VX nor the differences between VY and VZ and i'm talking strictly visual. Those cars certainly did have some upgrades as you can see from your list.

[Ghia351]

I saw a financial profile om the Ford family on Bloomberg or one of the cable finance channels that said the family used to just stump up a $100m here or there out of their family foundation built up from Henry's fortune. They never borrowed capital for anything. Money came out to build factories and finance R&D and went in from profits.

They had enough fat that a few lean years here and there like the 70's oil crisis barely bothered them.

Now, for the first time they're having to borrow from financial institutions in the US for capitalised projects.
So now they're financing like any normal company around the world has been doing from year dot ie. borrowing from a bank/lender and putting up some assets as security.
Back to original topic, the more I think about Wheels claiming exclusivity of these CGI images the more I laugh, as Badmac initially posted, they really are based on a VE base, BA rear and some tweaks to the front using the new Mondeo and luckily some elements from the front of a BFII F'mont ghia, atm is the the only current clue to how the design is morphing to Orion....until the first protos are spotted in Northern Oz soon.

[Dacious]

So now they're financing like any normal company around the world has been doing from year dot ie. borrowing from a bank/lender and putting up some assets as security.


I just thought it was interesting and awe-inspiring that a company could be built up by one man so far from nothing, through the depression and two world wars, which had to hurt core business, that he could afford to park enormous wealth in a foundation designed to do nothing but fund a car company. I wasn't slamming Ford, I'm full of admiration.

Henry Ford was just a giant. Mind you, Soichiro Honda did the same thing in probably as tough or tougher circumstances in post WWII Japan.

[payaya]

I reckon Ford are tightasses. They only spend up big on a model if they really really have to. There was tightarsed-ness with the BA-BF transition (looks the same car) and with other models before it. The BF is still a good car, but its looks were going to age fairly rapidly once new models from its competitors started coming out. And now they're scratching their heads going woe is me wondering why its sales are plummetting.

I think Orion will be more than a reskin. Sure, it will retain the same rear suspension and floorpan, but I think they will be using the Territory's forward-pivot front end and adapting the front end for possible LHD - some huge engineering changes required there. Also, with the BA, they were constrained with what they could do with the car, as every change they made to the platform had to be able to be accommodated within the AU's floorpan and passenger cell. The new car wont have that problem.



Yeah I heard about that too. As I recall people asked at the time if the AU was gonna get scrapped coz it was so shit and wasnt selling, and Polites said no, the next all new Falcoon wasnt due until '08 and was still in early development, so the revision of the AU was going to be just that, a revision, albeit a huge one and it incorporated things which were originally intended for Orion but were brought forward to save the Falcon's bacon (like the swanky interior, the DOHC six and the control blade IRS).

How are Ford tight??? They have spend more than Holden before the VE. AU, BA, BF big dollars spend on these models. More so than Holden.

With the Territory, Ford spent double of what Holden spent with their 4WDs.

[Ghia351]

I just thought it was interesting and awe-inspiring that a company could be built up by one man so far from nothing, through the depression and two world wars, which had to hurt core business, that he could afford to park enormous wealth in a foundation designed to do nothing but fund a car company. I wasn't slamming Ford, I'm full of admiration.

Henry Ford was just a giant. Mind you, Soichiro Honda did the same thing in probably as tough or tougher circumstances in post WWII Japan.
Sorry, I wasn't having a go at you also and in fact found your post very interesting as I didn't know the full case as well. It's more the huge press that Ford US has received for really doing nothing different to most corporations. Maybe if the Ford family wasn't so secretive it wouldn't be such a problem now.

[Venom XR]

But you're right Dacious, the fact they are now borrowing money does signal trouble in the Ford empire.

[HSVMAN]

Just so you know, you're arguing with a Holden salesman (HSVMAN that is...) .
Don't be surprised if you get mental images of him lying on the ground in the foetal position with his fingers in his ears, rocking back and forth, saying "LALALALA" ...
P.S. Don't mention the Falcon's split/fold rear seat. Or that they've had it for almost 20 years. Or that Holden are the ONLY local manufacturer to STILL not offer this extremely handy feature.

clixanup, I couldnt care less what people say about them :) If they like em they buy em if they dont they wont. My automotive interest goes way deeper than merely selling a certain brand. For a start 99% of my clients already want Holden. I dont have to convince them to buy. Its fortunate to be involved with a product that "sells itself" to some extent. It comes down to who the Client or Lease co's want to deal with. My biggest competition isnt other brands it's other Holden dealers.
Now, just so you understand, I have as many favourite Ford models as I do Holden (and other brands) so I'm not a blind Holden employee. I will however voice my opinion or debate someone elses if I believe it to be incorrect.

(p.s seeing as you havent got over it I'll repeat for you: Body strength is one of the formost reasons for not having split fold seats in a large sedan, especially when the fuel tank is situated directly below as is required for American standards - it's not difficult to leave a hole and bolt some hinges on the seats you know)

[chrism697]

making stattement s like that without proof doesnt say much. i really would like you to prove that ford is doing better than gm $$$. :serenade: plesae prove me wrong
Well other people have posted that ford are in worse shape without proof!

I just had a very quick look on the net so didn’t find any great articles and like I said, I also have based this on what senior managers at work have told us, but here are some articles

This article is an interesting read, and clearly states that GM is losing more money than ford…….its an old article and I think GM is doing a better job of turning stuff around, I guess we will se what the future brings
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/19/business/ford.php

an interesting quote from this article

“Even if the struggles of General Motors have been generating much bigger headlines, many analysts see Ford Motor as not being in much better shape.

Ford remains profitable, while GM has lost nearly $4 billion through the first nine months of the year. But both companies are overly dependent on sales of pickups and big sport utility vehicles. Both are suffering steep losses in their crucial U.S. automotive operations as fuel prices rise and consumers turn away from gas guzzlers. “



This article states fords concern with GM’s financial position and briefly mentions how bad a state GM is in
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060303/AUTO01/603030377/1148

anyway my point is you could not possibly argue that either of the 2 car giants is looking like they are in good shape at all!

[HSVMAN]

Well other people have posted that ford are in worse shape without proof!



I suggest you get some up-to-date information. Things have changed a lot since then and there was and still is a lot of media propoganda.
Anyway its way off topic

[chrism697]

so do you actually think GM is not in deep financial sh*t?

how is posting record losses (billions of dollars a year) media propagander? (mind you ford are also posting record losses, something like 12 billion last year)

look maybe ford is just as bad, maybe its worse, but the fact is both are in bad shape, nobody can argue that!!!!

[HSVMAN]

so do you actually think GM is not in deep financial sh*t?

how is posting record losses (billions of dollars a year) media propagander? (mind you ford are also posting record losses, something like 12 billion last year)

look maybe ford is just as bad, maybe its worse, but the fact is both are in bad shape, nobody can argue that!!!!

I'm not dissagreeing with you, yes they both are but if we know what the causes and solutions are plus what the turnover has been since then it doesnt then look so bad IMO.
The propoganda is in relation to what the media quote their "sources" as saying or suggesting, not what actual figures suggest

[BadMac]

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who lost the most, its all about what they are doing to turn it around.

GM have recognised (mostly) that the actually didn't dictate what the market bought and that people didn't want big gus guzzling trucks. To turn it around they have gone out to the colonies, they have Holden, they have Opel, they have daewoo. They have put forward some halo cars to reignite their markets, they would appear to be turning the ship around.

Ford, have ignored the Aussie branch with its cars, utes and Terri. They have amercanised to what they beleive the market wants the Euro Fords and they still haven't lost the "we know best" arrogance.

Time will tell, but Toyota and Honda must be laughing all the way to the bank.

[HSVMAN]

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who lost the most, its all about what they are doing to turn it around.

GM have recognised (mostly) that the actually didn't dictate what the market bought and that people didn't want big gus guzzling trucks. To turn it around they have gone out to the colonies, they have Holden, they have Opel, they have daewoo. They have put forward some halo cars to reignite their markets, they would appear to be turning the ship around.

Ford, have ignored the Aussie branch with its cars, utes and Terri. They have amercanised to what they beleive the market wants the Euro Fords and they still haven't lost the "we know best" arrogance.

Time will tell, but Toyota and Honda must be laughing all the way to the bank.


Exactly right!
Henry Ford built the company on that very same arrogance but it seems to be a culture well instilled and it has cost them dearly several times over the past 60 years.
Toyota has hurt Ford more than any other company has although I dont believe the Japanese car market dominance will be long lived. The playing field will even out IMO

[Ghia351]

clixanup, I couldnt care less what people say about them :) If they like em they buy em if they dont they wont. My automotive interest goes way deeper than merely selling a certain brand. For a start 99% of my clients already want Holden. I dont have to convince them to buy. Its fortunate to be involved with a product that "sells itself" to some extent. It comes down to who the Client or Lease co's want to deal with. My biggest competition isnt other brands it's other Holden dealers.
Now, just so you understand, I have as many favourite Ford models as I do Holden (and other brands) so I'm not a blind Holden employee. I will however voice my opinion or debate someone elses if I believe it to be incorrect.

(p.s seeing as you havent got over it I'll repeat for you: Body strength is one of the formost reasons for not having split fold seats in a large sedan, especially when the fuel tank is situated directly below as is required for American standards - it's not difficult to leave a hole and bolt some hinges on the seats you know)
..This is o/t but to correct you...Falcon's fuel tank is situatued as the VE's now is and still has folding rear seats and passes 80km/hr rear impact test, only local car to do so, even though it's not an ADR requirement ...and was instigated back in 2002.

[gasguz]

..This is o/t but to correct you...Falcon's fuel tank is situatued as the VE's now is and still has folding rear seats and passes 80km/hr rear impact test, only local car to do so, even though it's not an ADR requirement ...and was instigated back in 2002.

Cmon now boys....I for 1 dont give a rats arse about the split fold setup, as I have 2 child car seats in the back at any 1 time which makes this little feature obsolete & anyone that drives around with the seat down with passengers in the car is asking for trouble, as in an accident all that crap that you have in the boot along with the huge item that requires the seat to be down will surely do a heap of damage to anyone on the inside of a car. I buy the Holden because it is a better car than Flawed :stick:

Ghia351 - is the split fold design really a factor you look for when purchasing a car?? it seems to be quit important to you.

[Ghia351]

Cmon now boys....I for 1 dont give a rats arse about the split fold setup, as I have 2 child car seats in the back at any 1 time which makes this little feature obsolete & anyone that drives around with the seat down with passengers in the car is asking for trouble, as in an accident all that crap that you have in the boot along with the huge item that requires the seat to be down will surely do a heap of damage to anyone on the inside of a car. I buy the Holden because it is a better car than Flawed :stick:

Ghia351 - is the split fold design really a factor you look for when purchasing a car?? it seems to be quit important to you.
I corrected the point by disgussing engineering and the desire to add a feature over the reasons for not providing it as HSVMAN feels a forward mounted fuel tank means you can't have a split fold rear seat due to maintaining body integrity in a rear end shunt, all things a BA had and meets back in '02 so really its easy to achieve just not offered by Holden as it would add even more weight or take more engineering time/dollars and the VE was already late by 6 months, simple really...and I think you're mixing me up with Clixanup re split folding rear seats, he actually raised the issue.

[HSVMAN]

I corrected the point by disgussing engineering and the desire to add a feature over the reasons for not providing it as HSVMAN feels a forward mounted fuel tank means you can't have a split fold rear seat due to maintaining body integrity in a rear end shunt, all things a BA had and meets back in '02 so really its easy to achieve just not offered by Holden as it would add even more weight or take more engineering time/dollars and the VE was already late by 6 months, simple really...and I think you're mixing me up with Clixanup re split folding rear seats, he actually raised the issue.

Yeah it's nit picking and I shouldnt have replied to the original bait but just so not to be outdone... You are correct in the rear end impact design re Falcon. The structural requirement referred to by myself relates to side impact resistance in Commodore and does not necessarily mean Falcon is weakened by having split seats..........phew, hope that clears it up

[JEM]

Actually, although Ford introduced their own rear impact analysis and targets, it doesn't mean they actually achieved their goals, and they were never required too, it was just something they worked on and evolved over the years. I can't go into details, but things are MUCH better for Orion in this regard.

On the CGI's, it's like comparing a picture of something drawn by an ametuer and then comparing it to a real photograph. You know what it is, but the real pic is just so much better. Pretty much the same deal here.

[PaulST]

Ghia351 - is the split fold design really a factor you look for when purchasing a car?? it seems to be quit important to you.
My old man needs a split fold rear seat for work so he won't even consider a car without it. That rules out the Aurion, Camry, VE and 380. If Ford dumps the option on E241 they'll loose sales (namely my old man) especially now when it's the only large car that comes with the 60/40 split.

[EfiJy]

Actually, although Ford introduced their own rear impact analysis and targets, it doesn't mean they actually achieved their goals, and they were never required too, it was just something they worked on and evolved over the years. I can't go into details, but things are MUCH better for Orion in this regard.

On the CGI's, it's like comparing a picture of something drawn by an ametuer and then comparing it to a real photograph. You know what it is, but the real pic is just so much better. Pretty much the same deal here.

ifd it loosk like the mundeo at the motor show it is doooooooooooomed. that mundeo is sad. i didnt see any customers around it. did anyone even notice? :wave:

[JEM]

ifd it loosk like the mundeo at the motor show it is doooooooooooomed. that mundeo is sad. i didnt see any customers around it. did anyone even notice? :wave:

Don't know, I didn't go the motorshow as there was nothing there worth seeing really, so i don't know what the interest was like. I do however think the new mondeo can potentially sell VERY well if it is priced competitively. Falcon doesn't really look like mondeo, it looks like Falcon, but more modern, sharp, classy etc.

[mac06]

My old man needs a split fold rear seat for work so he won't even consider a car without it. That rules out the Aurion, Camry, VE and 380. If Ford dumps the option on E241 they'll loose sales (namely my old man) especially now when it's the only large car that comes with the 60/40 split.

If anyone really needs the space they can buy a wagon. Can't see how anyone would lose sales by not having split fold seats. If no manufacturer has it there is no option but to get another alternative, Terri if you like Ford, Captiva or VZ Wagon (soon VE) if you like Holden.

[Holden Man]

If it looks like a big version Audi A4 / A6 crossed with a bit of Falcon DNA then I think it should look pretty good.

I'm more interested what Holden will be adding / updating to VE at the Orion release time.

[clixanup]

I'm more interested what Holden will be adding / updating to VE at the Orion release time.
Split/fold rear seats! :hide:

[Holden Man]

Split/fold rear seats! :hide:

LOL :hide: :rocket:

[JEM]

I'm more interested what Holden will be adding / updating to VE at the Orion release time.

significant updates to fuel systems on V6/V8?

4spd gone?

minor cosmetic changes?

[Dacious]

Direct Injection V6. Probably 10/10/10&#37; better power/torque/economy first year. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 2.8 or 3.2 econo-miser stripped fleet/povo version in sedan and wagon with official economy in the 8's.

I agree - 4-speed will be replaced with 5-speed in Omega/Berlina, 6-speed auto may go on on SV6/Calais or they may go 6-speed on the lot, as the medium duty 6-speed is now appearing in HFV6 Saturn Auras (US-built Vectra) and other volume cars/SUVs in the States. Box can go E-W FWD or N-S RWD depending on housings.

Styling: further towards TT36 concept styling. Car will get lighter IMO. Plastic guards? Flavour of the month O/S, and makers here are very quiet on the subject despite the known availability of tooling. I wouldn't be surprised to see it on F and H.

[Mikhael]

It looks like just a face-lift of the existing car.

It won't be "all-new" either, so it origins will be traced back to the AU :shock:

Guess Ford don't have the money or a billion dollars to spend on an "all-new" car !!!!!

[McobraR]

Don't need a billion dollars to make an all-new car. And u gotta remember, ford has probably spent over 600million on this platform already, and if they do put some of territory's set up, they can claim another 100-200mil (since terri cost 500 mil also). So thats like what? 700-800mil already? In the end, its not how much a company spends, its how well they use the money.

[JEM]

all new is not required, simple as that. Particularly in many driveline/chassis components.

Money must be spent wisely, as can be seen by Holdens 1 billion dollar investment which doesn't seem to be paying dividends. 2,000 workers laid off now, and it's not because of smart robots.

[Fnomna]

as can be seen by Holdens 1 billion dollar investment which doesn't seem to be paying dividends

Sharing is saving: GM to save up to $750 million on Zeta RWD platform
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/21/sharing-is-saving-gm-to-save-up-to-750-million-on-zeta-rwd-pl/

You don't think this was factored into the sums before the decision to spend that billion was made, do you?

How much of Orion will Ford be able to share?

[Mr Moosh]

all new is not required, simple as that. Particularly in many driveline/chassis components.

Money must be spent wisely, as can be seen by Holdens 1 billion dollar investment which doesn't seem to be paying dividends. 2,000 workers laid off now, and it's not because of smart robots.

Why do people have to subtely start Holden Vs Ford bagging matches? 2,000 minus workers relate to cutting costs as everything is becoming more and more competitive... and unfortunately had to happen. Also I'm pretty sure a 30k - 50k export deal of the VE to the US is pretty significant. But I doubt if VE was being designed now instead of 6 years ago, GM would have thrown 1bill+ Holdens way. True Ford may not need to spend as much to keep the Falcon competitive.... But just leave the comment at that, and don't twist the thread into being about VE being a waste of money. Although, I did take the bait. But still, shut up! lol :thumbsup:

[BadMac]

all new is not required, simple as that. Particularly in many driveline/chassis components.

Money must be spent wisely, as can be seen by Holdens 1 billion dollar investment which doesn't seem to be paying dividends. 2,000 workers laid off now, and it's not because of smart robots.

Ford are having to spend the money wisely because they don't have any. When Holden asked for $1B (note 500M for VE and $500M for plant modenisation), they got it, although they had hiccups and lots of hand wringing, but I bet GM are happy with the investment now (VXR8, G8, Camaro and VE so far).

FOA asked and were rejected, huge sums of money on a low volume car didn't make sense when Ford were looking down the barrel of a $15B loss. FOA even went cap in hand to the federal Governement asking for help otherwise they wouldn't be able to build a new Falcon is Aus. They got some help, but have basically had to do Orion on a shoestring, hence so much carry over. Its not true that not required it is true they had no choice (anything else is just SPIN). It is credit to those who went before (AU/AV) that they did such a good job that Ford can avoid spending in the chassis area.

In terms of drivelines, Ford doesn't want a low volume I6 and frankenstein V8, they want standard platforms around the world. GM/Holden have that in the HFV6 and Gen4 V8's thus keeping engineering, parts, maintenance and most of all costs simple. FOA will be forced to tow the line or shutdown (I6 and 5.4V8 are staying for now because FOA could not afford to reengineer for Ford family motors, BG2 if it happens will change to V6 and may drop the V8 alltogether).

JEM is a Ford employee, he has a stake in the success of Orion, of course he will knock VE and build up BG, its his job and his passion is for Fords.

Note: before people see red and flame me. The above are the facts as I understand them. I am not attacking Ford or Holden or JEM.

[JEM]

Why do people have to subtely start Holden Vs Ford bagging matches? 2,000 minus workers relate to cutting costs as everything is becoming more and more competitive... and unfortunately had to happen. Also I'm pretty sure a 30k - 50k export deal of the VE to the US is pretty significant. But I doubt if VE was being designed now instead of 6 years ago, GM would have thrown 1bill+ Holdens way. True Ford may not need to spend as much to keep the Falcon competitive.... But just leave the comment at that, and don't twist the thread into being about VE being a waste of money. Although, I did take the bait. But still, shut up! lol :thumbsup:

You're right, i worded my post in a "baiting the hook" type of fashion which was not necessary, but, the point is not that Holden have 'wasted money', more so that Ford have to be very careful and use Holden's strategy as a guide to the way the local market is reacting to the large car, regardless of how much was spent on it, how new it is etc, at the moment, people are not flocking to it.

The export program is certainly a huge positive draw card for Holden and is what is required of FoA if they want to achieve long term viability.


Ford are having to spend the money wisely because they don't have any. When Holden asked for $1B (note 500M for VE and $500M for plant modenisation), they got it, although they had hiccups and lots of hand wringing, but I bet GM are happy with the investment now (VXR8, G8, Camaro and VE so far).

FOA asked and were rejected, huge sums of money on a low volume car didn't make sense when Ford were looking down the barrel of a $15B loss. FOA even went cap in hand to the federal Governement asking for help otherwise they wouldn't be able to build a new Falcon is Aus. They got some help, but have basically had to do Orion on a shoestring, hence so much carry over. Its not true that not required it is true they had no choice (anything else is just SPIN). It is credit to those who went before (AU/AV) that they did such a good job that Ford can avoid spending in the chassis area.

In terms of drivelines, Ford doesn't want a low volume I6 and frankenstein V8, they want standard platforms around the world. GM/Holden have that in the HFV6 and Gen4 V8's thus keeping engineering, parts, maintenance and most of all costs simple. FOA will be forced to tow the line or shutdown (I6 and 5.4V8 are staying for now because FOA could not afford to reengineer for Ford family motors, BG2 if it happens will change to V6 and may drop the V8 alltogether).

JEM is a Ford employee, he has a stake in the success of Orion, of course he will knock VE and build up BG, its his job and his passion is for Fords.

Note: before people see red and flame me. The above are the facts as I understand them. I am not attacking Ford or Holden or JEM.

Hi BadMac

Firstly i am not a Ford employee and have no stake in any of their successes. I dont want to see any of our local manufacturers go down the gurgler.

I just happen to know quite a bit about Ford and Holden through certain opportunites and that's why i feel i can comment on certain things.

Ford didn't rely on government at all for Orion's birth. The federal grants are there for all local manufacturer's as a result of the governments policy of reducing import tariffs over the coming years. Ford was allocated a certain amount and was basically told what it was to be used for, i can't go into detail as there isn't much public information about that yet so i don't want to say much and find myself getting chased down.

[Road Warrior]

FOA asked and were rejected, huge sums of money on a low volume car didn't make sense when Ford were looking down the barrel of a $15B loss.


Notwithstanding their current financial situation, in my opinion Dearborn's refusal to fund and or adopt a new generation of Falcon simply demonstrates how inept their decision making is. They are only in this shitty situation now because they did not diversify their products enough and relied too much on SUV's (and of course the ongoing legacy/pension costs but that's a debate for another time). If they had have recognised the ability of the Australian arm to develop good cars and perhaps adopted a similar strategy that GM did with Holden, I think their fortunes would be different to the way they are now.

The losers here are us. Dearborn has already tried to wind up local production of the Falcon twice before - is it a case of third time lucky for them?

[Bazza76d]

all new is not required, simple as that. Particularly in many driveline/chassis components.

Money must be spent wisely, as can be seen by Holdens 1 billion dollar investment which doesn't seem to be paying dividends. 2,000 workers laid off now, and it's not because of smart robots.

I will admit from the getgo I am a Holden man always have been always will be and I will never ever own a Ford over a Holden. In saying that I wont get caught up in the holden are better or ford are better thats childish and for children in the play ground sand pit. But in saying that I have read numerous people state something similar to "all new is not required, particularly in many driveline/chassis components". Ok that is fine if you want a car that was state of the art in 2002 when it was build. The same could be said for every model car, 'hey there is nothing wrong with this component so lets keep it' That just holds no weight, things are always moving forward, technology is advancing so quickly that to keep competative and to be at the pointy end of the industry you need to continually freshen up. I mean for goodness sake if that point was fair dinkum we would still be driving around in old carp things but were not, why? Because car companies realise they cannot rest on there laurells they must strive to make better products for a better price, thats simple/smart business. If Ford want to keep old components then regardless of the shell the internal workings will be like having an 5 or 6 year old car.

My thoughts anyways.

[BadMac]

Hi BadMac

Firstly i am not a Ford employee and have no stake in any of their successes. I dont want to see any of our local manufacturers go down the gurgler.

I just happen to know quite a bit about Ford and Holden through certain opportunites and that's why i feel i can comment on certain things.

Ford didn't rely on government at all for Orion's birth. The federal grants are there for all local manufacturer's as a result of the governments policy of reducing import tariffs over the coming years. Ford was allocated a certain amount and was basically told what it was to be used for, i can't go into detail as there isn't much public information about that yet so i don't want to say much and find myself getting chased down.


I appoligise, I thought you had said on one of the other forums you were somewhere in the loops. I appreciate that what ever your position you are privy to information not in the general public and therefore need to protect your postion. As for the money, it was well reported (albeit as accurately as VE's fuel consumption ;) ) that Ford went cap in hand. They received help plus other grants to improve I6's environmental performance and to ensure Orion was left hand drive to allow potential exports (although why Ford NA didn't at least stump up for that is beyond me).

And if VE had a Ford badge on it, the blue crowd would be hailing it as the second coming. Same as Holden fans will pick holes in Orion, but if it had a Holden badge it would be better than sliced bread.

[EfiJy]

i seriously dont understnd why the bitch fighting? if you luv your ford enjoy it. if you love your holden enjoy it. why do some people want to convince there make is better than the other make? grow up peeps. some peeps take thngs too seriusly when they come on this forum and tryr to tell us how good a rival car is gunna be.

as fo r those peeps with inside knowledge. im not asking you to prove it. i reckon we should just treet comments from these peeps with agrain of salt.:driving:

as for the comment all new is not required. didnt henry ford say the same thing about the model t? :lol:

[McobraR]

as for the comment all new is not required. didnt henry ford say the same thing about the model t? :lol:

I know holden said that for the VB commodore..... and the VN..... and the VR.... and the VT..... sheesh how many times did holden base their cars off the Opel's? ;)

[HSVMAN]

I know holden said that for the VB commodore..... and the VN..... and the VR.... and the VT..... sheesh how many times did holden base their cars off the Opel's? ;)

Who cares? they're not anymore :)

[Danv8]

I know holden said that for the VB commodore..... and the VN..... and the VR.... and the VT..... sheesh how many times did holden base their cars off the Opel's? ;)

True then look at some of the earlier Falcons that took some design idea's from the European fords such as an early Ford Granada = XD Falcon and so forth.

:)

[McobraR]

back to my point, a car doesnt have to be 100&#37; new to be good, or successful for that matter.

btw: XD was still australian designed, only thing taken from the granada was the healight and grille treatement ;)

[gasguz]

back to my point, car doesnt have to be 100% new to be good, or successful for that matter.

No it does not, but what are you offering your customers??? give them a reason to buy the new model. Why would you when a 5 year old XR looks & behaves like a brand new XR.

If we did not update things we would still be watching black & white TV, riding around in model T's, having mobile phones that came with its own briefcase, watching VHS & we would all be at the screens of our commodore 64's, etc

You need something to entice the customer to change from what they have to the new & better updated version. Ford is just not doing this & it reflecting in sales of only 3086 car sales for the falcon in Feburary which was #4 on the list. The VE commodore was #1 with 5544 sales for the same period. The new falcon was also beaten by the Toyato Corolla (3591) & Hilux (3141)

Overall Feb sales Holden came in at 2nd with 13,083 ford was next with 9110. (Toyota killed it with 18,602)

Figures taken from todays Cars Guide

cheers

[McobraR]

No it does not, but what are you offering your customers??? give them a reason to buy the new model. Why would you when a 5 year old XR looks & behaves like a brand new XR.

Again, the Wheels pics aren't official, only concept drawings. And just cus they'l probably use the same IRS, dont mean it'l handle the same. Weight distribution is one thing I've heard ford is working on, and the wheelbase too. Even the VE's ride aint much, if at all, better than the Fords.

[EddieVE06]

Anyone heard that Ford are building a manufacturing plant in Beijing. I have heard that within 5 to 10 years all manufacturing with be done in the Asian countries. Oz will be used as the design hub
I suppose its similar to what Holden is doing with GMDAT in Korea

[BadMac]

Again, the Wheels pics aren't official, only concept drawings. And just cus they'l probably use the same IRS, dont mean it'l handle the same. Weight distribution is one thing I've heard ford is working on, and the wheelbase too. Even the VE's ride aint much, if at all, better than the Fords.

You have obviously never driven a VE for long engough to know. Believe me they are night and day. :teach:

[gasguz]

Again, the Wheels pics aren't official, only concept drawings. And just cus they'l probably use the same IRS, dont mean it'l handle the same. Weight distribution is one thing I've heard ford is working on, and the wheelbase too. Even the VE's ride aint much, if at all, better than the Fords.

Mate stop living in the future & come back to the present, I am talking about the BA & BF model XR cars that are on the road today. Enlighten us why you would spend your money if you had a BA to upgrade to a BF that is pretty much the same as the car you already own? But I am sure the new car will look different

We cant compare apples to lemons because all we know about the lemon is that it is coming. Who knows for sure exactly what is happening with it (I am sure some do but cant say) as it is all speculation. I just reckon they are in overdrive & on the back foot in trying to compete with the VE Commodore. There will even be a series change in the VE by the time the new ford comes out, which might just trump the effort that ford put into making a better car than the VE series 1.

[payaya]

Large cars are doomed no matter what. Ford/GM in the US did not think much about the small/medium sector in the US, look at whats happening to them now, Toyota are hitting them to the ground with a broom stick.

The way oil prices are so unpredictable at the moment, Toyota will keep dominating the sales stats no matter what. Falcon/Commodore sales are already declining, and will keep doing so untill the companies pull the plug.

If it was not for fleet buyers, where would Australian produced cars be right now? Not good.


Mate stop living in the future & come back to the present, I am talking about the BA & BF model XR cars that are on the road today. Enlighten us why you would spend your money if you had a BA to upgrade to a BF that is pretty much the same as the car you already own? But I am sure the new car will look different

We cant compare apples to lemons because all we know about the lemon is that it is coming. Who knows for sure exactly what is happening with it (I am sure some do but cant say) as it is all speculation. I just reckon they are in overdrive & on the back foot in trying to compete with the VE Commodore. There will even be a series change in the VE by the time the new ford comes out, which might just trump the effort that ford put into making a better car than the VE series 1.

There is nothing wrong with the BF flatform, it clearly the front runner for a long time. Compare the NA 6 cylinders and the gap is tiny. If anything to all of us a big shock how little the VE was in front.

The BF's problem is the V8. Even when the VZ and BF were compared the VZ was the better car. Compare a Typhoon to a VE V8, the gap is tiny, in actual fact PCOTY saw the Typhoon ahead.

If Ford keep using this crap V8 which is a bit of a shame then yes Ford should be shamed for it, but you can blame the Ford for being old and date because it actually isnt.

People will buy the BF to replace the BA its more refined and has subtle changes. Why would you buy a VR to VS?? Same crap. VT - VZ all are the same crap, The VN to VZ about 15 years used the same tranny and V6. The VE today can still cop the VN's auto.

[gasguz]

Why would you buy a VR to VS?? Same crap. VT - VZ all are the same crap, The VN to VZ about 15 years used the same tranny and V6. The VE today can still cop the VN's auto.

I will give you the bit about VR-VS, as not much changed visually except for wheels & silver badging & engine for V6. But dude can you honestly say with a straight face that the VT SS looks like a VZ SS?? night & day there in my books.
Seems Holden learned this back in the 90's, make changes to get sales.
Using 10% of parts that continue through with models is not that bad compared to the 98% of same parts that ford has used during the BA-BF in the same time frame.

Toyota's bulk of sales are in light commercial vehicles, the Commodore is the number 1 selling car in Australia not the camry or corolla & has been for a few years

To be honest I would like to see the next ford as much as the next person, I just love cars in general & like seeing new things

[payaya]

I will give you the bit about VR-VS, as not much changed visually except for wheels & silver badging & engine for V6. But dude can you honestly say with a straight face that the VT SS looks like a VZ SS?? night & day there in my books.
Seems Holden learned this back in the 90's, make changes to get sales.
Using 10% of parts that continue through with models is not that bad compared to the 98% of same parts that ford has used during the BA-BF in the same time frame.

Toyota's bulk of sales are in light commercial vehicles, the Commodore is the number 1 selling car in Australia not the camry or corolla & has been for a few years

To be honest I would like to see the next ford as much as the next person, I just love cars in general & like seeing new things

Ok they look the same, the base models have different lights.

But VT which is sort of AU time and VZ is BF time.

So from VT - VZ the gains were bacsically the 6 speed manual, 3.6L V6 and the LS series V8.

From AU to Bf we see totally redesign of exterior panels, DOHC I6, 6 speed ZF and 6 speed manual T56, Double wishbone suspension, Control Blade syspension, new V8s Turbo 6.


So really from AU to BF, VT to VZ who has had the bigger gains???

Corolla topped the sales charts, higher than the VE about a month or two ago.

[Bazza76d]

Ok they look the same, the base models have different lights.

But VT which is sort of AU time and VZ is BF time.

So from VT - VZ the gains were bacsically the 6 speed manual, 3.6L V6 and the LS series V8.

From AU to Bf we see totally redesign of exterior panels, DOHC I6, 6 speed ZF and 6 speed manual T56, Double wishbone suspension, Control Blade syspension, new V8s Turbo 6.


So really from AU to BF, VT to VZ who has had the bigger gains???

Corolla topped the sales charts, higher than the VE about a month or two ago.

Yeah big changes from AU, mind you they didn't really have a choice seeing it was the ugliest car the world has ever seen so not a real claim to fame saying there was massive changes from AU. I reckon putting a dog shit on the bonnet would have improved the look and appeal of the AU. Least dogs would have sniffed it therefore attracting some interest!!!

[payaya]

yes the AU was ugly, but we are talking about changes dude.

[Ghia351]

Yeah big changes from AU, mind you they didn't really have a choice seeing it was the ugliest car the world has ever seen so not a real claim to fame saying there was massive changes from AU. I reckon putting a dog shit on the bonnet would have improved the look and appeal of the AU. Least dogs would have sniffed it therefore attracting some interest!!!
My dog wouldn't even think of dropping one on this:
http://www.ssangyongaustralia.com.au/stavic_exterior.html
so would you take the old AU or the current Stavic?
sorry for going o/t mods...

[Road Warrior]

Apparently there are full-build Orions on the streets...up in the territory. 6 of them. NT members keep your eyes peeled!

[McobraR]

You have obviously never driven a VE for long engough to know. Believe me they are night and day. :teach:

Still, I expected the VE to right away impress me. It did, but not as much as i hoped it to.


Mate stop living in the future & come back to the present, I am talking about the BA & BF model XR cars that are on the road today. Enlighten us why you would spend your money if you had a BA to upgrade to a BF that is pretty much the same as the car you already own? But I am sure the new car will look different

Yep, u said new model, i was assuming u were talkin about Orion and the CGI pics.. my bad.

[Nobby]

Apparently there are full-build Orions on the streets...up in the territory. 6 of them. NT members keep your eyes peeled!
On That Ford Forum, You Know The One, one member claimed seeing camo'd cars on the Hume hwy (victoria) a few days ago, another member who is known to be on the money most of the time claimed that they were almost certainly Orions. Sounds like it wasnt the TRD Aurion, which many have been tricked by previously.

Keep your eyes peeled lads.

In other news, hey, I'm validated! Thanks to all involved making it possible, I'd like to thank the academy...

[Dilan]

Found this
I can only apologise for the pic as its basically useless. It was taken this morning at 6am on my mobile phone. It was driving down the Hume Hwy towards Ford HQ in Broadmeadows. Although it had a car bra on the front and rear end it did reveal side vents behind the front wheel arch which distinctly resembled the HSV E series. Only this had the FPV logo on it! Looking at the door design it had very similar design cues to the new Lincoln MKS. Anyway for what its worth heres the pic.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/520/image058ss9.gif

[BadMac]

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n241/tx3dude/image058ss9.gif

I don't think its Orion, It may actually be a VE (maybe Series 2)?

[Road Warrior]

If that was Orion it would be covered head to toe in black plastic, like the VE was early on.

And it wouldnt have freakin' FPV badges on it either! (or any badge for that matter)

[Invasionss]

If this has been said before somewhere in the 203 posts on this subject, i don't care as i'm not sitting & reading everyones comments.

But how many times are ford going to change the falcon? I agree, the AU looks like a piece of shit & they then bought out a good looking number, the BA. The BF then with some little minor tweaking & they've now designed a brand new car. What is going on & how much money are they going to waste try to beat Holden?

They could of kept the B series around a lot longer than a small number of years!

The release of this falcon, will it be the same as past releases? This make & models in the range will be make or break for ford!!!

[payaya]

Holden have a bigger fan base, simple.

[Venom XR]

Orions are around. One I heard of was in Geelong, near Product Development - funny that eh? Why worry about the NT, etc when they're in the very area they get designed/built in? Wasn't wearing black plastic head to toe either, but it was certainly camoflauged and of a variety I don't think I've heard of used on a prototype car before...

[BadMac]

Orions are around. One I heard of was in Geelong, near Product Development - funny that eh? Why worry about the NT, etc when they're in the very area they get designed/built in? Wasn't wearing black plastic head to toe either, but it was certainly camoflauged and of a variety I don't think I've heard of used on a prototype car before...


Do tell more.

[NODDY347]

They could of kept the B series around a lot longer than a small number of years!


The B series car has been around 5yrs now and was just an evolution of the Au which has been around since '99'. Much like the VT-VZ. The Orion will be a completely new car which loses the Au cabin and door architecture. The BF is already somewhat stale with the new VE on sale and imo they should bring the Orion release date forward, why wait another 13+ months when sales of the current model are struggling.

[Jac001]

imo they should bring the Orion release date forward, why wait another 13+ months when sales of the current model are struggling.

That isn't always possible because it takes a certain amount of time to make all the tooling. In addition all the suppliers have to get their tooling made up , pilot parts made and everything tested and re-tested to make sure it is up to spec. If the time line is for 12+months it may not be possible to make it all happen too much faster, well not without spending huge amounts of money and taking a few chances....

[Venom XR]

Do tell more. All I can say is don't expect Zebra stripes, but a different type of animal :)

[nang3]

If that was Orion it would be covered head to toe in black plastic, like the VE was early on.

And it wouldnt have freakin' FPV badges on it either! (or any badge for that matter)

thats exactly what i was going to say - if they bother camo'ing/disguising it, why put badges on it???

fark if they really wanted to disguise the new cars while doing engine/gbox/clutch/diff testing etc they should just stick Magna/Sportivo body panels to it.. no one will notice the car at all haha

[BadMac]

All I can say is don't expect Zebra stripes, but a different type of animal :)


So Jaguar spots?

[Venom XR]

So Jaguar spots? That would be appropriate given the link to PAG but I'm not 100% sure of the exact species. ;)

[El Narros]

subaru released this car a few years ago, its called a liberty.
except subaru make a good car.

[BadMac]

Heres the pic from WGN-80Y from Street Commodores.
Make up your own minds, but left hand drive would suggest not Orion. In fact is is the new Mondeo.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/BadMac/Kennyspics1252.jpg

[XtRmn8]

Yes the car in the middle is the new Mondeo, the car on the left is the S-Max from Europe too and as someone else mentioned on another forum the falcon on the right was most likely an Orion prototype.

[Holden Man]

That Mondeo must be pretty big as it's virtually the same size as the flacon beside it.

[Road Warrior]

Yes the car in the middle is the new Mondeo, the car on the left is the S-Max from Europe too and as someone else mentioned on another forum the falcon on the right was most likely an Orion prototype.

I'd say a drivetrain mule more than likely - other than that it looks like any other BA/BF Falcoon.

In fact I bet that they have that zebra'd Mondeo with them on purpose to draw attention away from the Orion mule. It is probably full of computers and whatnot like early VE mules were.

[Nobby]

Well, thats the trick isnt it. You could zebra up some Mondeos and send them about the place for months with people taking pictures going "ZOMG nu Falcon!!!111oneoneone" then pffft, actualy new Falcon appears on a magazine cover somewhere.

Doubtful, though. There's is some eagle eyed blokes with cameras who can spot a new mule from a mile off.

[BadMac]

Heres Gearys lastest CGI of Orion. Sorry Geary I didn't ask for permission, but since you posted it a couple of days ago, I figured it was public domain, but credit anyway, I see you are on the forum at present so hopefully you can add some comments). I must say its looking a lot like the current generation Mondeo in this CGI.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orionsneakwk8.jpg

[emg]

it looks classier than an omega, thats if the pictures are of a base model falcon... :up2sum:

But base model or not, great shape to start adding bodykits etc.. can't wait to see what they do with it. :idea:





Um... I love my SS :driving:

[geary]

Heres Gearys lastest CGI of Orion. Sorry Geary I didn't ask for permission, but since you posted it a couple of days ago, I figured it was public domain, but credit anyway, I see you are on the forum at present so hopefully you can add some comments). I must say its looking a lot like the current generation Mondeo in this CGI.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/orionsneakwk8.jpg

Can't say much, other than: More soon.

[shane W Z]

Can't say much, other than: More soon.

don't suppose you could give us a idea of roughly how soon?.

[geary]

I just did another chop this holidays, and I think I have one more to do, but I need to get moving because I'm back to school on Monday. :cussing:

[NRD80Y]

(not very clear) Spy shots of the new falcon from caradvice.com.au
http://www.caradvice.com.au/2551/2008-ford-falcon-spy-shots/

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalcon3small.thumbnail.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalcon2small.thumbnail.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconsmall.thumbnail.jpg

Don't know how they can tell it's a falcon, looks like a VZ wagon :lol:

[lowriding]

you sure thats not some type of VE /zeta ?

[BadMac]

They could be anything, but if its Orion then its a generic shape. However it would be good to varifiy the location (anybody familar with Ford/Holden testing grounds) because that last pic makes it look like a wagon and therefore it could equally be the first spy shot of the VE Sportswagon.

[Road Warrior]

Ooer spy shots :bravo:

It aint a wagon, the back of the car is obscured by that bush. If you look at the website you can see the sedan back of the car.

You can also make out some sort of ornament or detail on the front guards - like a VE bonnet vent. Perhaps it is a VE derivative of some sort??

[Dilan]

There are foriegn panels attached to the car and the camera is tooo far away...but first spy shot...bring it on!!!

[Road Warrior]

It certainly has the size and stance of a Falcon. But that black car on the left looks like a Camry??

And if it was Orion, wouldnt the whole thing be covered, even in a closed course? Someone on FF said that it could be that Renault prototype.

[Venom XR]

Doesn't look like the skid pan at You Yangs, nor any other part of the proving ground I've seen...

[Mikey]

Oh dear! Take a look at the pic on that website of the passenger side. That aint no VE Commodore, but what ever it is, it sure is ugly. Check out the amount of windscreen compared to the glass on the door. That bonnet line just aint right! Also the rear arch seems to be too small for a Falcon Commodore sized Falcon.

I know it is disguised but those parts are definitely exposed. I don't think it is the new Falcon because common sense says that they would not leave that much exposed so early, but if it is, there will be a lot of tears over on the Ford Forums.

[BadMac]

Well this was just posted on AFF by member SODA (great work if you visit here!). It is low quality and the watermark is delibrate as he has offered the good shots to a mag for publication. If they don't want them then he will post the rest.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/Picture_003.jpg

[Aspiring Youth]

All photos are up on here (http://www.caradvice.com.au/2580/2008-ford-falcon-orion-spyshots/)


http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fordfalcon2008xrreragood.thumbnail.jpg

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fordfalcon2008xrreragood2.thumbnail.jpg

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fordfalcon2008spyshotrear.thumbnail.jpg

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fordfalcon2008spyshotrear2.thumbnail.jpg

Must say the back ofthe red one looks like a Monaro to me. Very unimpressed. Plus only one pipe on what is thoughtto be an XR? Yuck. And no flared guards are going to make this look really flat compared to the VE. And is the antenna in the middle of the roof?!? Oh well, better for holden i guess.

[EddieVE06]

The side of the car looks pretty bland, so far not really impressed, early days yet i suppose

[seedyrom]

Whats with the protruding shoulder blades at the back (top of c pillar)?

Can't wait for the cabriolet fun top version :) :limpy:

[Danv8]

Im going to wait and see them in the flesh before I will judge them.

[korrupt]

They almost look ready for launch. How early were the VE mules running around?

[gasguz]

This info is on Autoblog

http://www.caradvice.com.au/2580/2008-ford-falcon-orion-spyshots/

Thanks to soda for the pics

Just saw an above post had the same link whoops

cheers

[ti0350]

Do you think Ford are going to wait til next year to release this, given these cars are running around on the roads it would suggest they might release them a little earlier..

[Road Warrior]

The stuff around the doors and rear window is all fake panelling to throw off the pesky spies with their cameras.

Agree with the comments about 1 exhaust tip only for XR's. Should have twin for the sixes and quads for the 8.

[BadMac]

Intrested in your comments on this. Orginal was done by Adrenaline on UCP forum. I have modified it to remove aerial and vents.

http://images.cainer.net//uploads/copare.JPG

Note waistline, glasshose, C panel, flares. Orion is still a falcon family look, but IMHO they are getting close together (preparing for the merge b4 taking on the world :) ).

[Road Warrior]

Still to hard to compare with all the black crap covering the red car. Also, one glaring difference is the red car has a similar shoulder line to the AU/BA/BF, just not as pronounced. The VE doesnt have this, just a simple swage further down the door but a higher belt.

And I bet those door handles are straight from the Territory parts bin.

[EfiJy]

theres a sideon shot of a falcon in wheels or motor. forgot witch one. the car looks good.

[VT_Jim]

don't really know what to think of it until the day i see it .

[shane W Z]

more pics at www.caradvice.com.au

[BadMac]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconfront2.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconsideon.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconfront.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconsideon2.jpg
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/2008fordfalconfront3.jpg

[Road Warrior]

Is that an intercooler I spy in the front cutout of that last pic?

[Brendan24688]

If it is a intercooler it looks massive :D