Interesting article

[Blonk1]

I would have thought it was not this cut and dried

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/holden-commodore-ss-v-vs-ford-falcon-xr6-turbo-review.htm

[BadMac]

Ah Blonk, got bored over on the Ford forums and decided to come stir things up, haven't heard from you for a while. Please stay a while this time.

One things for sure they can't add.

H F
4 4.5
4 4
4.5 3.5
4 3.5

4.1 3.8.

Also pretty dumb article comparing Auto to manual, and since when was SSV an XR6T competitor, thats the XR8. The SS VE weighs less and from memory when a real driver has them both its SS first daylight second. So pretty poor effort all round and shows how desperate Ford are to get some press, they are now paying for articles like that.

Motor BFYB
Manual SS
0-100: 5.2
400m: 13.4@174.9
Oran Park Track Time: 36.8

Auto Typhoon.
0-100:5.4
400m: 13.5@175.1
Oran Park Time: 36.5

XR6T Auto
0-100:6.0
400m: 14.2@169.1
Oran Park Time: 37.4


Motor PCOTY
14th: SS-V Manual
0-100 km/h: 5.7 sec
0-400 m: 13.9 @ 168.1 km/h
0-1000m: 24.8 @ 218.6 km/h
Winton Lap time: 1.43.56


16th: XR6 Turbo Manual
0-100 km/h: 6.0 sec
0-400 m: 14.3 @ 165.6 km/h
0-1000m: 25.6 @ 213.7 km/h
Winton Lap time: 1.43.62


17th: XR6 Turbo Auto
0-100 km/h: 6.2 sec
0-400 m: 14.2 @ 167.1 km/h
0-1000m: 25.3 @ 217.1 km/h
Winton Lap time: 1.44.47

[Blonk1]

I did notice they said the holden appeared to have been somewhat abused...

Maybe that accounts for it... Might be the same one they flogged around Winton

[lowriding]

A no-credibility internet nerd masqurading as a journo i think.this bloke/woman always gives the Fords a magic carpet ride on that no cred site ,very dodgy at best.Actually if you look blonk he has given the ford 4.25 wombats vs The SS 4 wombats . Less is more when handing out the wombats ,surely ?:p

[Blonk1]

I think you guys misconstrue my intentions, I carefully watch how many change from GT to XR6T, from LS1 to XR6T, and a few from XR6T to LS2...

Many different opinions and perhaps I am just looking for a reason to hang on to my 360+rwkw F6 and not trade till I drive an Mk2 VE HSV ( I wasnt a bit impressed with the MK1) or the 2008 forced 6... Just looking for quality opinions not trying to troll or upset anyone.. I dont have a favourite brand, I just want best value for money.. Simple....

I wanted you guys opin ions as there is quite a few owners of the SSV here now, and I would assume some have driven the 6T, I at least have driven VE HSV 6L but call it a very even spread, The mod factor though would have to lean heavily toward the boost factor though wouldnt it........?

[lowriding]

I don't think we misconsture your intentions ;)

[Blonk1]

I think ya do.........

Cars are, just cars.......

Some cars just happen to be more car than others

[Danv8]

Here we go again same ol pissing contest.
:sux:

[Fritz]

I reckon that article is pretty well put together, web wombat writes pretty balanced reviews.

[Blonk1]

Thanks Fritz, but I wonder how, as others point out it can be one sided by another writer.

They are comparing 2002 technology with 2006 technology remember..

And to those instant doubters, just be careful that GMH doesnt bring out a forced 6 that makes the Xr6T and the LS2 look stupid.. Because I have heard its on the cards.. Now forget what brand it is and please give valid opinions

I think as we can further strengthen motor, we can surely add more fuel air to smaller spaces... I believe its called the future of motoring and I have heard all hydrogen cars (if that happens) will be forced induction.....

They put turbo's on chevy's too you know, why???

Cause they go good.......

Heres one here..

http://www.2bluesc.com/viewpics.php?dir=Miscellaneous+Cars%2F57+Chevy+wit h+8+Turbos

[Fritz]

Fair enough, but just just cause its newer technology does not make it better, only got to look at thd LS2 vrs BOSS motors, BOSS has the techo goodies but comes up short. A good design and setup goes a long way.

[Blonk1]

I have seen though the same model vortech supercharger go onto an MonaroLS2 and onto a GT 5.4.... The monaro tuned to 295rwkw and the GT went to 330rwkw... Same blower, 2 different motor, direct PCM tuning...

No other mods than exhaust an edit...... on both.....

Maybe different tuners would have got the reverse.. I dont know...

[Fritz]

I just thought it was a pretty good review for me. I'll never mod my car, same as the majority of owners, and it was good to see the best from each camp go head to head.
They didnt flog the cars, more drove them them like Mr Average and gave there opinions on that, no track work just a bit of hooning from time to time.

Its always intresting seeing whats quicker getting booted round a track or what responds to mods best, but id never try it with my car.

Thats me and I reckon the majority of Aus would be the same, but I know a lot of members of enthusist websites like this take there cars seriously, just got to look at some of the power figures and times being posted.

cheers

[lowriding]

look it's crap review written by a non-journo gumby,it's a crap website . You two should just get a room :deal:

[Blonk1]

Like I said lowrider, when the turbo torano comes out and makes 350fwkw's and 600nm of torque at 2000rpm, runs a nice 12 and handles like a european car.... The LS2 boys will eat humble pie just like the GT boys did....

If you think there is no replacement for displacement, then you probably think button up shoes are a really neat idea......

I only started this thread to see how many people like myself have driven both and are in 2 minds about what is better.. I cannot make a valid judgement because both seem to have there merits... Do you buy metabo or hilti..... Prove to me what is better..???

Same deal going on here except we invest a lot more money..!!!!!!!!!

[willz]

One things for sure they can't add.


Obviously maths wasnt the journos strong point so they turned to english :p

nothing wrong with an xr6t and they are even better with a few choice mods

if someone bases their choice of a new car of web wombat.....

[Wonky]

One sentence sums it up for me..... The bloody reviewers (and I use the term very loosely) don't even know what the motor in the SSV is. Pretty pathetic for people in their position. They say " with the awesome on-tap torque of the LS2 means that this thing moves very quickly". Dumbasses!! :fewl: :fewl:

[Blonk1]

Obviously maths wasnt the journos strong point so they turned to english :p

nothing wrong with an xr6t and they are even better with a few choice mods

if someone bases their choice of a new car of web wombat.....

Hey Wills, my problem exactly.. I read reviews, I drive both cars (a few german and italian cars also) to gauge the best opinion, I come here, I go to FF (god help him) to make an accurate decision on the what I am going to invest (try loose) my next 60k on....... I like the M5 but I think both the VE HSV and the FPV turbo or blown cars are comparable for a lot less money....

I dont base my choice on Motor, wheels, or web wombatssss.....

With the ford turbo 6------ 500rwkw's is the new 300rwkw's from the days of old... Most modified turbo 6's on average would be running well over 300+.... simple.... and stilll let the wife drive the kids to school in it.....

I try to base it on experience and combined we have it here... Thats why the post, no trying to start shiat, no trolling, just tryinbg to get ther best information.. I am a born and bred Holden boy.... My neighbour as I grew up tuned marlboro torano 05.... I got droppped at school in marlboro trorano 05 with rollcage fitted, climb out the window (he had 6 of them) for me the typhoon shitated on the competition, wih a tune injectors, cat wastegate, intercooler it was the (and still is ) the fastest and most exhilerating beast I have owned... I have run a low 12 (other have pulled 11's) ... I have taken it to top speed of 290kmh on an airstrip.... I have lived more in this car in 50 seconds than i did in 3 years in a twin turbo 5 litre HX monaro.... I was looking for more than, "hey its a Holden, of course its better" I was looking for level headed maybe scientific approach to the investment of


60,000 dollars minimum....






My case, feel free to add shiat below...........

Heres another members of this site F6 going form 70 - 180.....


He has good tyres obviously... But check the torque.... If someone has an LS2 doing similar.. pleased post it.. This is not a competition, just appreciation...

If you cant appreciate this... Go to another thread....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbaNDcuoiZw (third gear acceleration)

F6 - not quite stock.................

What will we all do if a V6 buick motor, blows us all to the faurkin weeds....??



Then what are you going to whinge about???????

[BadMac]

Dude, I spent ages comparing the cars and drove 3 different F6's before buying my R8, I never drove a GT or GTP as the F6 is so much better (IMHO)! In the end the VE looks better (subjective, but that AU C pillar was crap 8 years ago and looks worse now). I decided to buy the best car for $60k and right now thats a HSV, only a died in the wool Fordie would buy a BFII F6/GT/GTP at the moment. If they were brand neutral, they would buy a VE, then look at Ford again in 2 years (after Orion has released and settled). Personally if the Orion is as good as those who have seen it say it is I will get an Orion F6 next.

And in terms of performance, remember a Turbo car as a rule of thumb equates to a doubling of the actual capacity (i know it depends on the boost pressure, but i'm keeping it simple), so the F6 should be getting close to the output of a 8l motor. I know there are many variables, but its the same as comparing x with y on different days with different drivers, in different countires with various undisclosed add ons.

This comparo was XR6T to SSV (should have been XR6T to SS). I have owned a XR6T (BA2) and currently have a BF XR6 (as well as my personal R8) and I can tell you IMHO the R8 is much better for my situation (2 small kids, frequent long trips, occasional fun days). I find swapping between the R8 and XR6 interesting, the steering on the XR6 feels dead and the handling, which I thought was good, feels uncertain in 100km/h corners. The problem gets worse if you load the XR6 up, 4 adults unsettles what I had thought was a great car, when compared to the R8. I know some reviewers paste the VE and others love it. I can only talk from personal experience, woning both cars.

Not looking for a pissing contest, the numbers I have posted from Motor on 2 seperate side by side tests show how wrong this reviewer was (or how sick SSV 01 has become in 10,000km of jurnos thrashing it).

[JimmyXR6T04]

i'm in the same boat as blonk here.. what's my next car gonna be? we're so spoilt for choice. In a way, i agree with badmac.. if i was to buy a car tomorrow, i'd have to work very hard to decide what it would be. But, with the limited changes on the BF, i might have gone a VE.

I think i'm over my XR6T, and i'm seriously thinking of a GT (supercharged or turbo). But i'm gonna reserve my decision until i've seen the '08 falcon. If it's looking great and stuff then i think i'll get it. Otherwise, i might choose between a HSV R8 or a GT.

At the end of the day, there's bugger all between ford and holden these days. And the only people who say there's daylight between them, are so one eyed and so one sided that their opinion is obscured and invalid.

If i didn't have to pay for my cars, and i could choose one every year... well i'd choose holden one year, and ford the next. Some times a change is just what we all need.

[Blonk1]

It appears we all agree... There is bugger all between these cars and the lucky ones are us drivers... Still doesnt help me make a descision.. Anyhooo

Also Bad mac, I noticed you left out the F6 from your PCOTY results, remember it ran 9th and the GTO ran 18th from memory, if you want to keep all info intact.. But like I said, I doubt very much there is that much difference between them. As I doubt there is a scientific opinion here in this article.

Jimmy, I am guessing a blower on an 8 will be my next effort, but I really think the 8's should be getting smaller not bigger. Jaguar has been getting well over 450bhp out of a 4 litre NA 8 for years now, why are Chevy struggling to get that out of a 6 litre without throwing warrenty

[BadMac]

Sorry to get way off topic, but its relevant.

The sooner there isn't Ford Versus Holden, but Ford and Holden versus the world, the better for the aussie car industry. Yes the rivalry on track is great but would be even better if there were Fords, Holdens, Hyandis, Lexus, etc. As long its its rear drive, V8 and sold in Aus, it should be eligible for V8 supercars. Then the series would grow antoher leg (as long as a Ford/Holden won most of the time!!!).


It appears we all agree... There is bugger all between these cars and the lucky ones are us drivers... Still doesnt help me make a descision.. Anyhooo

Also Bad mac, I noticed you left out the F6 from your PCOTY results, remember it ran 9th and the GTO ran 18th from memory, if you want to keep all info intact.. But like I said, I doubt very much there is that much difference between them. As I doubt there is a scientific opinion here in this article.

Jimmy, I am guessing a blower on an 8 will be my next effort, but I really think the 8's should be getting smaller not bigger. Jaguar has been getting well over 450bhp out of a 4 litre NA 8 for years now, why are Chevy struggling to get that out of a 6 litre without throwing warrenty

I left out the F6 the same as I left out the GTS results. The article was about XR6T versus SSV. I am happy to post them, but they don't add anything except to reignite the GTS v F6 debate.

As for smaller V8's. they used to have 1.5l V8's in F1, but who wants something that screams and vibrates and makes very peaky power at 19000 RPM. Its still the same old tradeoff big lazy cubes versus small and peaky. I mean who wants to rev a V8 to 10 grand when you can get the same HP and torque at 5? And if you want smaller with Blowers/Turbos, then get a 6 or 4, better economy yet still got HP without the mechanical complexity.

[Blonk1]

True about the smaller motors, I see your point... Probably bugger all difference in economy these days either between a high revving smaller motor and a lazier bigger motor putting down the same power...

And remember when bathurst and all touring car racing was open to anyone..

Jaguar went in it once in 10 years and ran first and second, and the skylines (we are allowed to co-operatively dislike skylines here) and Ford Sierra's (that you couldnt even buy in Oz, dominated the series. Thats why they banned them and made it uniquely Australian.. To assist the domestic market in car sales, if we let all commers back in the 4ecyl turbo's would probably dominate again unfortunately....

Just a footnote about the forced induction - It does not artificially double the size of the motor unitl you are using 1 atmosphere of boost or 14 PSI the stock F6 is 9 psi there fore roughly equivelant to a 5.8 litre motor.. At 14 PSi (or artificially 8 litres) these motors are running high 300rwkw...

[Martin_D]

I think you miss the point Blonk1 :)
Having been in on the ground floor of tuning XR6T/F6 Falcons since day one in this country, and having turned out many 300 - 350rwkw examples, I can tell state that under 3000rpm they are a terribly gutless uninspiring thing to drive. Thats what you get with a 4 litre six pushing 1800kg...combined with turbocharger sizing that is designed not to generate much puff below 3500rpm :teach:
A twin turbocharged 5.7 litre/6 litre V8 on the other hand can smoke the tyres at 2000rpm, and is actually fun to drive as its sharp and aggressive. There are two F6 owners on this site that I know of that previously owned turbocharged LS1s, 'upgraded' to F6s and after less than 8 months of driving correctly modified examples (one makes 335rwkw the other 348rwkw) cant wait to get out of them and back into a force fed V8 :)
One of them copped $39K for a 10000km old Tornado after paying $64K for it 8 months previously. Thats how disappointed he was :(

While some of the XR6 guys on here do think that a dyno sheet and a singular number is everything. All it really shows is they lack much in the way of experience in driving anything remotely quick. Time to broaden your horizons a bit fellas and give your comments some credibility :)

Next you will be telling us its too fast for a track.......:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :diddy:
My 2c! :cool:

[JT]

And remember when bathurst and all touring car racing was open to anyone..

Jaguar went in it once in 10 years and ran first and second
It was first and third actually,the orange BMW was second and as far as once in ten years,jag was entered the year before but the clutch failed on the line causing the huge pile up and restart

[UTE FORCE]

I have to agree with Tuna,the Ford turbos are a rancid pile of crap off boost,i do quite enjoy the turbo rush they deliver though...but load 4 100kg guys into one like we did a while back and they really struggle

[VYII_R8]

I have to agree with Tuna,the Ford turbos are a rancid pile of crap off boost,i do quite enjoy the turbo rush they deliver though...but load 4 100kg guys into one like we did a while back and they really struggle

Adding 400kgs to ANY car will make a difference! XR6T or GenTT included!

[Martin_D]

So what did you feel the difference was between your XR6T when you had it and the VYIIR8 concerning performance vs weight? :confused:

[Blonk1]

I think you miss the point Blonk1 :)
Having been in on the ground floor of tuning XR6T/F6 Falcons since day one in this country, and having turned out many 300 - 350rwkw examples, I can tell state that under 3000rpm they are a terribly gutless uninspiring thing to drive. Thats what you get with a 4 litre six pushing 1800kg...combined with turbocharger sizing that is designed not to generate much puff below 3500rpm :teach:
A twin turbocharged 5.7 litre/6 litre V8 on the other hand can smoke the tyres at 2000rpm, and is actually fun to drive as its sharp and aggressive. There are two F6 owners on this site that I know of that previously owned turbocharged LS1s, 'upgraded' to F6s and after less than 8 months of driving correctly modified examples (one makes 335rwkw the other 348rwkw) cant wait to get out of them and back into a force fed V8 :)
One of them copped $39K for a 10000km old Tornado after paying $64K for it 8 months previously. Thats how disappointed he was :(

While some of the XR6 guys on here do think that a dyno sheet and a singular number is everything. All it really shows is they lack much in the way of experience in driving anything remotely quick. Time to broaden your horizons a bit fellas and give your comments some credibility :)

Next you will be telling us its too fast for a track.......:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :diddy:
My 2c! :cool:


Granted Tuna you are a very reputable tuner, however I think there have been a lot of advances since you tuned a lot of 2002 - 2003 models... The edit for example as the piggyback is now a throwaya article.. I am suprised to see you say that the XR6T is gutless under 3500 after having so much to do with these cars. I am making boost at 1800rpm and losing traction in 3rd by 2100rpm... Not sure how you tuned them or what mods you had done to the ones you had tuned, but I think it is an industry agreement the barra 6T is a torque monster. Very hard to get off the line but as soon as it is moving it pulls veryt hard, even the article says the 6T was faster of the mark and the 6 litre had to keep the revs up to keep it moving fast....
Seen it 100 times on this site that the F6 is not impossible to beat on the street, and I quote from this site - "Just keep those revs up boys"

Beside I think you are missing the point - I am having trouble deciding what to upgrade to and all reports are conflicting, person have loyalty to brands for whatever reason, some like one, others like others, some like all... I am one of the ones that like all, but which way am I going to steer my next 60k...

I do not for one minute regret buying an F6, It has been the peak of performance motoring for me, 3 previous holden v8's and 2 previous turbo's one being a holden also. The car has set a very high precedent for me and me only and for my next car to be the next benchmark I am going to shop carefully else I will be disappointed.

I think there is a general agreement among the educated that the reports will always be statistics and opinion, in the end it will come down to personal preference.. Sometimes I feel I should just go get an Audi turbo so I dont have to hear anymore about this holden / ford crap, but there are probably BMW owners out there ready to pounce and you and tell you their cars are better because they have bigger motors...

Would I be correct in saying that???

[Martin_D]

Granted Tuna you are a very reputable tuner, however I think there have been a lot of advances since you tuned a lot of 2002 - 2003 models...

Thanks for the kind words Blonk...however I was contracted by CAPA/SCT for the calibration and testing of not only the BA 02 models, but also up to the current gen BFII, and Territory Turbo for Flash Tuner system, which I would think is used on your vehicle. Its been a four year project to date, and the by-product has been a world of tuning flexibility that has enabled users such as yourselves to obtain a successful and well tuned result. Personally I wouldnt use a piggyback as a wheel chock :) :lol: :cool:

Regardless, the combination of turbine housing size, compression ratio, and vehicle weight that Ford have chosen is never going to make for a snappy low rpm ride, but does give reasonable power potential at high rpm/high boost pressures, at the expense of engine life. Just dont make the mistake of comparing apples with oranges, particularly on here where there are some folks that do know the answers :teach:

Its this inherent mis-match of torque delivery that requires an XR6T to generate 300rwkw to match the times a stock LS1 with 250rwkw will repeat on a consistent basis. The facts do indeed speak for themselves here :)

[VXRacer]

HEY.... I got an idea, why dont we get Holden to make a 6cyl that out performs its V8 and then we can do a comparison?????


This is a bullshit thread... you are comparing a naturally aspirated engine against a force fed one... doesnt matter about capacity and make it is crap...

why dont we compare the featherweight 4cyl turbo HSV VXR against a Falcon Futura (or whatever the **** they are)..

apples and oranges people..

find similar cars to compare and then start a thread worht considering...:werd:

[Blonk1]

The thread is about how can they (webwombat) say the BF XR6T is better than a VE SSV... I dont personally understand, not only how this is possible but how it differs from other reports...

I didnt come here to start a fight but to look at balanced opinions to assist me in choosing my next car.... As Tuna has provided. Has anyone else had experience with both cars??

[lowriding]

The thread is about how can they (webwombat) say the BF XR6T is better than a VE SSV... I dont personally understand, not only how this is possible but how it differs from other reports...



stop trolling .Maybe this post can assist :wave:

http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=27995&view=findpost&p=435780

amateur :teach:

[Blonk1]

Maybe if you read some of the replies over there you will see some balanced responses about their opinions and not one person bagging the car, just comments about the virtues and fallbacks from their experience.

Would you say if I shopped in a billabong shop and a ripcurl shop I waqs a troll???

I posted that comment as a rebuttal against the webwombat article.

Anymore quality input today "lowrider"?

These are the comments I disagree with below.


We cruised, we charged, we steered and we poked. Then we prodded, we cursed, we took some photos, and finally we argued. At the end of the day, the comparison bore witness to an astonishingly tight race, but the burning question can finally be answered: Ford's cult hero, the XR6 Turbo is the better car.

For purveyors of performance, the XR6 Turbo is a true Aussie sports car, hitting the mark expected of it in all areas – acceleration, braking, steering and feel. The SS V - whether by design or perchance - has all the ingredients for the performance segment but leans towards the luxury side of the scale, and as a result will definitely catch the eye of buyers who would be more likely to inspect imported sports cars.

With a rip-snorting V8 engine, show-car looks and a much improved chassis, the Holden Commodore SS V was the runner up here, albeit by a small margin. The SS V has the definite edge in the style stakes, but the crisp handling dynamics and scintillating engine of the Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo and it's well balanced overall design ensure that it's still the best Aussie performance car on the market

This goes aginst what has previously been documented by another writer