New boss for HSV...

[goofafidamedes]

http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2509796.aspx

HSV has announced its new head honcho. And his background might surprise some...

3rd MD in 20 years. Pretty good stability. Customer focus? OMG, things might improve for HSV owners. Good to see.

[57NIT]

Maybe GMH could learn a thing or two off him.



We can only hope.

[Ryzz]

Wow, interesting times ahead. I didnt know that HSV always had Lexus set in the sights since the early days, thats something interesting. Especially if Scott Grant can bring the Customer Experience of Lexus into HSV then the winning brand can only get better!

[spank]

the only thing as an owner/buyer of hsv's that i want to see is less cars built so that cars hold value better than they do at the moment because they build too many imho and the market is flooded with them, there is no exclusivety, but i doubt we will see that happen
a lot of my friends who have bought HSV'S in the past wont bother now because of this and are now buying ss's etc because they hold their money as well as the HSV- poorly

[Danv8]

Sounds good.

Although he better not Beige up HSV!!!!

[bsbozzy]

the only thing as an owner/buyer of hsv's that i want to see is less cars built so that cars hold value better than they do at the moment because they build too many imho and the market is flooded with them, there is no exclusivety, but i doubt we will see that happen
a lot of my friends who have bought HSV'S in the past wont bother now because of this and are now buying ss's etc because they hold their money as well as the HSV- poorly

I think they need to keep up the market demand, but they need more 100 only models, i.e. 100 LS7 or hell even the upcoming LS9 equipped VE GTS and ONLY 100. That would be better.

[vysandman]

the only thing as an owner/buyer of hsv's that i want to see is less cars built so that cars hold value better than they do at the moment because they build too many imho and the market is flooded with them, there is no exclusivety, but i doubt we will see that happen
a lot of my friends who have bought HSV'S in the past wont bother now because of this and are now buying ss's etc because they hold their money as well as the HSV- poorly

So true spank but unfortunately that wont happen. Having bought 5 HSV's, I wouldn't buy another. I don't own one now, got out of it about 6 months ago. I would much rather a modified SS than anything HSV are offering. If people have to modify a HSV to get what they require, it proves that they aren't building the cars their customers require. I know everyone wants something different in a vehicle but HSV should drop the "S" out of their name because they aren't very special anymore.

[Curtis-R]

So true spank but unfortunately that wont happen. Having bought 5 HSV's, I wouldn't buy another. I don't own one now, got out of it about 6 months ago. I would much rather a modified SS than anything HSV are offering. If people have to modify a HSV to get what they require, it proves that they aren't building the cars their customers require. I know everyone wants something different in a vehicle but HSV should drop the "S" out of their name because they aren't very special anymore.

I agree with spanks and the above.. I still really like the HSV's a lot and I have a much better appreciaton for them after attending an HSV drive day... but I spose HSV are after the $$ too, so mass production would always be on their agenda with the clubby etc.. and the limited runs of certain HSV models is really only the saving grace. All depends on people motives for purchase I guess ;)

[HSVDKB]

So true spank but unfortunately that wont happen. Having bought 5 HSV's, I wouldn't buy another. I don't own one now, got out of it about 6 months ago. I would much rather a modified SS than anything HSV are offering. If people have to modify a HSV to get what they require, it proves that they aren't building the cars their customers require. I know everyone wants something different in a vehicle but HSV should drop the "S" out of their name because they aren't very special anymore.

I guess record HSV sales says that you disillusioned guys are not affecting the current buying patterns

[lowriding]

yeah HSV are heading in the right direction- MRC is a good example ,something that is exclusive to their cars not available to the SS buyer. They need more of this and i think they now recognize that.

[Invasionss]

I reckon the HSV will become even more enhanced with greater performance & luxury products. I'm also thinking he may try to move away from from the holden interiors, meaning that he'll look at what Holden has to offer HSV & then better it.

Just what i think anyway, could be wrong. Can't wait for future models in years to come to see what he will do.

[goofafidamedes]

I think differentiation will become the cornerstone of a HSV revival. This guy has comes from Lexus, who I will admit do a pretty good job (and especially so the last couple of years) in differentiating their base product "Toyotas" from their Lexuses.

Mind you, the Lexus' are generally different sheetmetal, so maybe this is the route HSV will gradually move towards...

[The_Senator]

I think differentiation will become the cornerstone of a HSV revival. This guy has comes from Lexus, who I will admit do a pretty good job (and especially so the last couple of years) in differentiating their base product "Toyotas" from their Lexuses.

Mind you, the Lexus' are generally different sheetmetal, so maybe this is the route HSV will gradually move towards...

Whilst I agree that HSV will definately want better and broader diferentials between their models and the SSV's, as can be clearly seen in the VE's, HSV is MUCH smaller than a LEXUS type, and as such major sheetmetal changes would be a pipe-dream.

I do like the direction HSV has taken to "distance" themselves from your average Holden VE - and i think that this will be more evident in future models, and what HSV needs to get the Badge snobs from thinking it is just a "Holden".

Time, as they say, will reveal all.

[korrupt]

Nice of the new boss to confirm the new Maloo will be out later this year in today's Cars Guide though. I assume that means the Holden ute will hit a month or so earlier.

[vysandman]

I guess record HSV sales says that you disillusioned guys are not affecting the current buying patterns

Yeah, you're right. Although I wonder how many of the current crop of buyers will keep buying or whether the sales trend will continue. They're not a bad car for the money, it's just that they don't differentiate from the base Holden product enough. ie. looks, performance, wheels and interior. What's a GTS now ? MRC........big deal ! Where's the extra power ?

[mustanger]

Yeah, you're right. Although I wonder how many of the current crop of buyers will keep buying or whether the sales trend will continue. They're not a bad car for the money, it's just that they don't differentiate from the base Holden product enough. ie. looks, performance, wheels and interior. What's a GTS now ? MRC........big deal ! Where's the extra power ?

Yes, you are right there,but remember that the current GTS is $15-20K cheaper than the previous GTS . What they could have done was a 350/360 kw version for the same money.

[vysandman]

Yes, you are right there,but remember that the current GTS is $15-20K cheaper than the previous GTS . What they could have done was a 350/360 kw version for the same money.

Yep and they should have made it that 20K dearer and fitted the LS7, but while ever people keep buying what they are offering, they wont change.............and neither will I.

[spank]

my 04 grange is due for replacement soon and after seeing the wm grange i cant see the extra value in it. rrp plus orc for caprice is $74970 with sunroof and satnav, grange is $86970 with roof and satnav also, so 12 k extra for the grange which is basically a caprice with mrc and bigger brakes and wheels

[Goggles]

judging by the comments in this thread, HSV need to establish a presence on sites like to this to get an idea of what customers want.

[Vulture]

my 04 grange is due for replacement soon and after seeing the wm grange i cant see the extra value in it. rrp plus orc for caprice is $74970 with sunroof and satnav, grange is $86970 with roof and satnav also, so 12 k extra for the grange which is basically a caprice with mrc and bigger brakes and wheels

Yeah but the bigger brakes and wheels plus MRC = $12K is actually not bad value.

[Cosmo Kramer]

my 04 grange is due for replacement soon and after seeing the wm grange i cant see the extra value in it. rrp plus orc for caprice is $74970 with sunroof and satnav, grange is $86970 with roof and satnav also, so 12 k extra for the grange which is basically a caprice with mrc and bigger brakes and wheels

You managed to justify it back in 2004, with an approximate $14K difference between the Caprice and the Grange. Go on, you know you want it, get the Grange.

[Caprice270]

Bringing the Lexus customer experience to HSV would be a great improvement. The cars are already fantastic, apart from the fact that there is no longer second tier, high performance model in the range. I agree, the current GTS doesn't deliver the huge performance differential of its predecessors.

This is highlighted by the fact that the media have taken a liking to the suspension set up of the Clubsport, thereby making the GTS's MRC seem less appealing than it may otherwise have been if the Clubsport was not a great handler. Ofcourse, the GTS is still a great car, but the GTS badge should have been retained until such time as HSV could offer a high performance motor, similar to the 215i stroker or the C4B.

Returning to the issue of customer buying experience, in my recent dealings with BMW, I was amazed at the difference. The sales staff bend over backwards to help, they stay in touch after the sale of the car, and invite you to wine tours, golf days, etc. for free so that they build a relationship with you that will lead to future sales. When you attend these after sales events there is nobody doing the strong-sell, just good natured conversation about everything other than cars. You get the opportunity to get to know the sales staff well, so that when the next M3 is soon to be released, you can work closely with them to make sure yours is one of the first batch delivered to Australia.

This is the sort of thing HSV should consider carefully going forward, because people at the moment are buying HSV's and they are never contacted again once they drive the car out of the dealership, apart from maybe a call a week later, if you're lucky. The product is great, but the service can be improved.

As for the GTS, I'm sure the high performance motor is around the corner, perhaps getting ready for launch at the same time as the Orion Falcon to inflict carnage on the Ford empire at the most opportune time?

[Vulture]

Bringing the Lexus customer experience to HSV would be a great improvement...Returning to the issue of customer buying experience, in my recent dealings with BMW, I was amazed at the difference. The sales staff bend over backwards to help...

If you liked the customer experience from BMW, just wait 'til you buy a Lexus - another level again. They couldn't have picked a better person.

[spank]

You managed to justify it back in 2004, with an approximate $14K difference between the Caprice and the Grange. Go on, you know you want it, get the Grange.

no, in 04 i couldnt justify it either and it was more like 18k difference from memory, but happy to be proven wrong, the only reason i ended up with this grange is i bought it as a dealer demo in 05with 4000klm on the clock and it was also a runout as well as wl had been released it was also an 04 build, so i got it for less than a new 05 wl v8 caprice, as the dealership had a wl grange on as a demo which was the same color as the one i bought off them

[Invasionss]

Why not just go in to the hsv dealer & say i want a demo model then? They are cheaper.
The extra 12 thou on top of the caprice would be as mentioned, plus the hsv name & body kit etc.
But then again, i can't justify spending so much money on a car as we are hardly ever in it. If i was driving it all day everyday, then i'd spend the big money.

[spank]

unfortunately i am in the car all day everyday, but the biggest problem isnt the price its that the caprice now looks so good the grange doesnt look different enough, unlike wk-l models, you are right tho i will probably go for a 07 runout and buy in 08

[Cosmo Kramer]

no, in 04 i couldnt justify it either and it was more like 18k difference from memory, but happy to be proven wrong, the only reason i ended up with this grange is i bought it as a dealer demo in 05with 4000klm on the clock and it was also a runout as well as wl had been released it was also an 04 build, so i got it for less than a new 05 wl v8 caprice, as the dealership had a wl grange on as a demo which was the same color as the one i bought off them


RRP:-

WL Grange $89,750
WL Caprice $74,390 Difference $15K

WK Grange $87,250
WK Caprice $73,690 Difference $13.5K

Here's hoping you find the demo you want to keep you in HSV's.

Regards

[Jac001]

the only thing as an owner/buyer of hsv's that i want to see is less cars built so that cars hold value better than they do at the moment because they build too many imho and the market is flooded with them, there is no exclusivety, but i doubt we will see that happen
a lot of my friends who have bought HSV'S in the past wont bother now because of this and are now buying ss's etc because they hold their money as well as the HSV- poorly

I have always beelive that HSV have been too cheap.

The Clubsport should start at $100K and be worth $100K! SHould have heaps more power (different engine all togeather) , different interior and different sheet metal etc.

It shouldn't be a done up commodore....

[spank]

i went to the hsv factory today and for the first time i saw a white wm grange, after the dissapointment of the motorshow car the white one i saw today has re-ignited my love for the barges, the one at the show did not do the car justice and is different to the ones i saw today as there were a few subtle differences that have made all the difference and im sure that the person responsable for choosing the color of the show car (port wine?)needs his head read, imho, i can only wonder how many others were put off the new grange at the show and like me started pricing bmw's and mercs
one thing i was told today is that any car fitted with MRC must not fit different wheels or even different brand tyres even if they are the same dimensions as the originals as they are calibrated to the body computer specifically for that car, this arose as i mentioned to the guy that showed me the grange that i would fit clubsport wheels to the grange as the only thing i really dont like about the car is the wheels, he said this would upset the MRC and said not to do it and hsv would not deliver the car with anything except for the original wheels and if changed the wheels myself then any problems arising would be my own

[goofafidamedes]

i went to the hsv factory today and for the first time i saw a white wm grange, after the dissapointment of the motorshow car the white one i saw today has re-ignited my love for the barges, the one at the show did not do the car justice and is different to the ones i saw today as there were a few subtle differences that have made all the difference and im sure that the person responsable for choosing the color of the show car (port wine?)needs his head read, imho, i can only wonder how many others were put off the new grange at the show and like me started pricing bmw's and mercs
one thing i was told today is that any car fitted with MRC must not fit different wheels or even different brand tyres even if they are the same dimensions as the originals as they are calibrated to the body computer specifically for that car, this arose as i mentioned to the guy that showed me the grange that i would fit clubsport wheels to the grange as the only thing i really dont like about the car is the wheels, he said this would upset the MRC and said not to do it and hsv would not deliver the car with anything except for the original wheels and if changed the wheels myself then any problems arising would be my own

That's the thing with technology - it can restrict what you do.

Mind you, you could hope for the scenario where DDI reappears in some form and allows you to interact with the car and change its behaviour - much like Ferrari let you do with the manettino. This is the kind of feature you'd expect on a GTS-R or Grange Vintage Edition. Giving the driver some credit - scope to tune and adjust car to suit your needs. Is a Ferrari 430 dumbed down - hells no. You can twist the manettino from "Grandma on Snow" to "Suicide Dorifto" mode.

Imagine a DDI interface with proper haptic/interface design principles which will allow you to enter in the weight of your new wheels and tyres - so that the MRC system can adjust its mappings and reactions to suit.

The point of technology is to use it as an enabler - to empower those who normally couldn't do or achieve something. To enable you to fit custom rims and have the kickass suspension system cater for that choice. Wheels are often the first thing changed on a HSV - where is the foresight to at least figure out how changing the wheels affects the MRC - then to give scope (to use a programming analogy) to be able to change a constant right up the top of the code, instead of having to make adjustments through the entire system.

I really hope HSV continue to make use of technology - but use it to empower the drivers of their cars to refine the way they experience their car. DDI was probably before it's time - but I'm sure it's not far away from being time for it to hit the headlines again. Maybe in a different form - with a different interface, but a similar idea. More details than a On/Off button however (like MRC at the moment)

Another thing that would be great to see - especially for resale - is an attempt to stop devaluing the models as they come through. (I may be a little off with this, but you'll get the idea)

VN-VP Sv3800 - SV5000 - (Senator?) Group A
VR-VS Manta - Clubsport - Senator - GTS - Grange
VT XU6 - XU8 - Clubsport - Clubsport R8 - Senator - SV99 - GTS - Grange
VX XU6 - Clubsport - Clubsport R8 - Senator - Senator 300 - SV300 - GTS - Grange
VY-VZ Clubsport - Clubsport R8 - Senator - SV6000 - GTS - Grange
VE Clubsport R8 - GTS - Senator - Grange

I realise the quality of the cars has picked up significantly, however the Clubsport R8 has now gone from a somewhat "up there" HSV to a "base model" HSV. I know that's criminal to say, and I apologise, but I definitely think that the perceived status of a model within a range of cars has an impact on the value attached to that car. For another example, look at Porsche. They have the 911. They have the 911 Turbo. They have the 911 Cab. They have the 911 GT2. Sure, they have variants, but they dont' come along 5-6 years down the track giving the name to what was an upper model in the range to the base "cooking" or "entry" model. The base model will always be the 911 Carrera. I think this seriously hurts the perceptions of 2nd hand HSV's - because people are thinking "that name x will be attached to the base model soon" and I think people try to avoid that - hence avoiding the car, creating less demand or they pay less for the car because they perceive less cachet (cash-ay) attached to that model.

I hope the appointment of Scott Grant can see HSV take a very strategic direction with their cars and entire business. The VE was a massive step forward for the company - the push for MRC and the different tail-light cluster - and I hope with Scott at the helm they can move to improve both the cars and the market's perceptions of them - both in the new arena and the 2nd hand.

[spank]

i asked if the mrc could be custom tuned via edit or somthing similar and was told no because its program is in the body computer
as far as the appointment of scott grant is concerned i will be supprised if much changes at HSV

[goofafidamedes]

What's the point of having an intelligent system if the parameters can't be adjusted? I guess HSV have a lot to learn about the MRC still... especially if they've hard coded everything into the body computer... but until I see a system diagram of the VE's electronic control systems I can't really comment on what Holden/HSV are playing at... Maybe because it's tuned into the ESP it can't be touched - particularly from a "legal" point of view.

[lowriding]

sounds like usual BS actually.Infact it has got to be .

[spank]

im assuming that MRC is either off or on and there is no "hard" "medium" or "soft" options, maybe a feature down the track, i didnt really go into it, just got told what was what

[lowriding]

the idea that they think they can specify a particular tyre -including brand- is quite ridiculous when i think about it. Holden ,and i assume HSV, have very broad parameters when designing cars,such as operating temps from -10 to 60+ degrees etc .A car must be able to tackle Australia and all that.Lots of lip service on that subject when VE was released too. Only allowing one particular tyre to be used on a car is at complete odds to that mindset,what happens when the tyre is not made anymore ?I reckon it's complete bullshit from some silver tongue.My (albeit limited) knowledge of the mrc ,i dont see how tyres are part of the system .

http://www.gmcanada.com/media/vehicles/cadillac/showcase/innovations/mrc/video_en_CA.html

cheers

[monaroCountry1]

What's the point of having an intelligent system if the parameters can't be adjusted? I guess HSV have a lot to learn about the MRC still... especially if they've hard coded everything into the body computer... but until I see a system diagram of the VE's electronic control systems I can't really comment on what Holden/HSV are playing at... Maybe because it's tuned into the ESP it can't be touched - particularly from a "legal" point of view.

Doesn't one of Ferrari's newest and most expensive cars only have 3-4 MRC settings?

Now compare the price difference

[spank]

i told the guy that i would change rims and tyres and find out for myself what happens, as i dont believe, as much as he told me, that it would have that great an impact, mind you it was him i was trying to buy the r8 wheels and tyres of, and he was trying to talk me out of it, not often HSV tries to not sell me something! but he was quite adamant that it was a no go

[goofafidamedes]

Doesn't one of Ferrari's newest and most expensive cars only have 3-4 MRC settings?

Now compare the price difference

Yes, they have programmed in different settings - but they don't just adjust the MRC - they also adjust the transmission, the e-diff, switch the engine map in a number of different ways.

What I'm getting at with the HSV setup is that they could do a lot of stuff - but the implementation of the basic configuration can be done in such a way that gives flexibility later on (ie. flash reprogramming) using further R&D to refine the suspension "tune." This is where the system architecture needs to be loosely intertwined but able to communicate - kinda like loose coupling in programming. Have it not reliant on, but able to use something.

The price diff is in the exotic materials - and the e-differential. I'd hate to think what that would be worth...

[Carby650]

Only allowing one particular tyre to be used on a car is at complete odds to that mindset,what happens when the tyre is not made anymore ?


that is a very good point and one I wouldn't have thought of.
Surely you could use differnet tyres albeit on the same rim.
To take it one step further tyres wear down and have different air pressures depending on useage. The system cannot be that inflexable. Or am I over simplifying it?

[Greeny34]

Love the HSV product this is no 3 for me from new.

I unlike many on this forum I dont have a problem with HSV as their product just keeps getting better and better. I love the MRC.

Saying that .. if a new boss can improve the product even more then thats fantastic :yahoo:

Scott

[Ryzz]

as far as the appointment of scott grant is concerned i will be supprised if much changes at HSV
What makes you say that Spank? I dont understand why you would get someone with fresh ideas in, and not allow them to implement any changes, sorta defeats the purpose doesnt it?

[goofafidamedes]

What makes you say that Spank? I dont understand why you would get someone with fresh ideas in, and not allow them to implement any changes, sorta defeats the purpose doesnt it?

I've seen companies do this before - bring someone new in to give the "appearance" of moving in a new direction but not really changing/evolving at all.

I don't think this is case with HSV though.

[Ryzz]

I've seen companies do this before - bring someone new in to give the "appearance" of moving in a new direction but not really changing/evolving at all. Yeah fair call, didnt think of it that way


I don't think this is case with HSV though.Lets hope not, it sounds like this guy has a lot to bring to HSV and hopefully us as customers will benefit from this.

[spank]

i hope that im wrong, but nothing has changed since 1988 when they had vl walkinshaw's sitting in dealerships that they couldnt sell well after they had released vn group a's, flooding the market, now 2007 and still 2006 models lying around that they cant sell, discounting the arse out of them and the ones they did sell are worth nothing, pissing the people off who did buy
imho HSV have no idea how much this pisses of existing customers and why so many people only ever buy one or two cars off them before they have had enough, our car club (HSV OWNERS CLUB VIC) has , for as long as ive been a member had constant membership numbers, ie, there is a core group of members like myself who will continue to buy the cars and wear the losses of the cars, but so many people join the club have their car for a couple of years go to sell it for a new one and are disgusted and shocked on its losses and simply wont cop it again, and dont renew their membership, so hsv continues to sell lots of cars but its not reflected in our club numbers if you see what im getting at
i think HSV needs to build more expensive and excusive cars, just my 10c worth, just my views and observations having bought more hsv's than i can remember over the last 10 years

[goofafidamedes]

To elaborate further Ryzz, maybe HSV needed to drive some further form of investment or corporate partnership. Maybe negotiations had stalled (due to personality, cultural or other differences) - a new GM can give the appearance of a fresh start and help stimulate any negotiations or whatever is going on.

I think HSV is caught in one of the worst potential catch-22's for a business - do we make a boutique or mainstream product? Do we price and market accordingly? Do they make 5000 Clubsports a year instead of 200 GTS-R's? Are we a volume manufacturer? At the moment, it would appear HSV make their money on volume, not on exclusivity and margins. At the end of the day, HSV make a product that is, by and large, ridiculously accessible. However, it is the accessibility that devalues it compared to say, any of the AMG range of Mercedes, which are not "that" accessible and are released here in reasonably limited numbers.

It is quite likely that in moving Mr Harding into the Export division and bringing Mr Grant in, HSV will be well placed to go on the perception offensive, and put in place strategies in order to try and maintain or raise the "value" of the brand and its products. No-one has criticised the cars - the long standing criticism is the value-retention of the product.

I thing I'm fairly sure of - you won't see too many more of the likes of the Coupe LE, Coupe Signature... HSVDT, HRT and other special edition cars which I swear are almost released to use up inventories (see the HSVDT and HRT cars using painted version of the rims that first appeared on the VY R8 in '02 - your car so special now?) - I don't see any of the manufacturers HSV aspire to emulate - and essentially idolise - doing any of that.

[Caprice270]

Some are suggesting that HSV should focus on exclusivity, which I believe isn't viable. Exclusivity means high price tag, say $140k+.

No Commodore can successfully command a $140k+ price tag because then its competing against European coupes such as the BMW M3 & Z4M, AMG SLK55 and Porsche Cayman S & Boxster S. These cars offer great coupe styling in a small light body. There are no compromises to appeal to the needs of families. They are sharp performance tools. Basically, they would stomp all over an expensive, big, heavy, family focussed commodore that dares to tread on their tows.

The HSV Commodore range is all about offering good value V8 performance with luxury. HSV know this successful formula, and they would be smart to stick with it. The only thing they should do is work out how they can improve on it, rather than "changing direction".

HSV can offer a $140k+ car if they were to design a completely new car, preferably a small, sexy Corvette-like coupe with a big mutha V8 in it. Then they could charge $150k and operate on small volume. But that's obvioulsy not going to happen.

[phunky_monkey]

the only thing as an owner/buyer of hsv's that i want to see is less cars built so that cars hold value better than they do at the moment because they build too many imho and the market is flooded with them, there is no exclusivety, but i doubt we will see that happen
a lot of my friends who have bought HSV'S in the past wont bother now because of this and are now buying ss's etc because they hold their money as well as the HSV- poorly

Agree 100%

[goofafidamedes]

Some are suggesting that HSV should focus on exclusivity, which I believe isn't viable. Exclusivity means high price tag, say $140k+.

No Commodore can successfully command a $140k+ price tag because then its competing against European coupes such as the BMW M3 & Z4M, AMG SLK55 and Porsche Cayman S & Boxster S. These cars offer great coupe styling in a small light body. There are no compromises to appeal to the needs of families. They are sharp performance tools. Basically, they would stomp all over an expensive, big, heavy, family focussed commodore that dares to tread on their tows.

The HSV Commodore range is all about offering good value V8 performance with luxury. HSV know this successful formula, and they would be smart to stick with it. The only thing they should do is work out how they can improve on it, rather than "changing direction".

HSV can offer a $140k+ car if they were to design a completely new car, preferably a small, sexy Corvette-like coupe with a big mutha V8 in it. Then they could charge $150k and operate on small volume. But that's obvioulsy not going to happen.

I agree about the Commodore not being able to compete with the sports coupes you mentioned above. However, when they constantly compare themselves to the European marques yet produce cars which essentially have no differentiation, only optional equipment put in as standard and sold as a new model such as GTO LE/GTO Sig/Skaife Senator but particularly the HSVDT/HRT Edition (nothing against those cars but lets face it they were a little tacky)

Mind you, the E Series may mark the departure from that "special model" way of thinking. The new Senator is particularly classy.

Funny though you refer to the "HSV Commodore range" I wonder if an AMG owner calls his C55 AMG his C-Class? I'm not picking on you per se, because I know there are thousands of people around this country who think that HSV's are nothing more than Commodores. I know so much more goes into developing a HSV than just throwing of some badges, big brakes and wheels. It doesn't matter what I know though - it matters what the general perception is.

I will bet all the silicon in the pron industry that if HSV can't shake the perception in this country that their cars are nothing more than tweaked Commodores then there is no chance of HSV resales ever improving. Why?

The problem is now car platforms in the GM organisation must now have their existence globally justified - this means that a HSV sports coupe essentially would be an imported Corvette. I can't see HSV building one of their own. The only probable differentiation done to the Corvette would be the interior - from what I've seen the Corvette interior is fairly spartan.

[phunky_monkey]

Caprice: I do see your point, and it is a valid one. I'm not adverse to them making a decent number of cars, but to be in a state where there are 'new' VZ's sitting on showroom floors tells me they are over producing, and devaluing their own product. I really do feel sorry for the people who bought a brand new VZ Clubbie, only to have dealers discount them by over 10k a few months later... that is appalling. You don't see their rivals doing the same...

My 2c

[spank]

Caprice: I do see your point, and it is a valid one. I'm not adverse to them making a decent number of cars, but to be in a state where there are 'new' VZ's sitting on showroom floors tells me they are over producing, and devaluing their own product. I really do feel sorry for the people who bought a brand new VZ Clubbie, only to have dealers discount them by over 10k a few months later... that is appalling. You don't see their rivals doing the same...

My 2c

that was my point, we have had hsv discounting superceded models since the vl walky, i waited as long as i could until i bought my GTO, i know one of my mates paid nearly 16k more than i did for the same car, he swears this is his 3rd and last HSV, doesnt matter how good the new car is, he's been burnt esp after the salesman told him "HSV coupes will hold money" then HSV announced more coupes to be built and 9 months later heavy advertised discounting, i dont blame him

[goofafidamedes]

Caprice: I do see your point, and it is a valid one. I'm not adverse to them making a decent number of cars, but to be in a state where there are 'new' VZ's sitting on showroom floors tells me they are over producing, and devaluing their own product. I really do feel sorry for the people who bought a brand new VZ Clubbie, only to have dealers discount them by over 10k a few months later... that is appalling. You don't see their rivals doing the same...

My 2c

What's worse is when you're coming up on 12 months after you stopped building VZ HSV's and there still is quite a number of brand new VZ's sitting around in the lots for massively discounted prices and still no one is interested.

Booran Cheltenham have got an '06 Z Clubbie, which I believe was a demo - sitting in the used car lot. Never been titled. Well discounted too. I don't even know if they've even had someone look at it in the last 3 months. I've seen the odd HRT Edition advertised online for around the $60 mark - Whilst not a ridiculous discount compared to a VE R8 - what chance is there of the VZ selling over an VE R8?

I wonder how Mercedes and the like sell off their superseded cars?

Anyway, we're kind of getting off topic. I think it's pretty clear we all agree that Mr Grant has some significant challenges ahead of him and that we wish him all the best.


that was my point, we have had hsv discounting superceded models since the vl walky, i waited as long as i could until i bought my GTO, i know one of my mates paid nearly 16k more than i did for the same car, he swears this is his 3rd and last HSV, doesnt matter how good the new car is, he's been burnt esp after the salesman told him "HSV coupes will hold money" then HSV announced more coupes to be built and 9 months later heavy advertised discounting, i dont blame him

Have you seen how many GTO's are being advertised (new and used) at the moment??? It's ridiculous... some people even want more money for their used VZ GTO's than some dealers want for their new ones...

[Carby]

So true spank but unfortunately that wont happen. Having bought 5 HSV's, I wouldn't buy another. I don't own one now, got out of it about 6 months ago. I would much rather a modified SS than anything HSV are offering. If people have to modify a HSV to get what they require, it proves that they aren't building the cars their customers require. I know everyone wants something different in a vehicle but HSV should drop the "S" out of their name because they aren't very special anymore.

They are certainly more special than a modded SS. The SS like ALL holdens past and present has inadequate brakes - the 4 spots 365mm F and 350 R of the HSV's are another generation away from your SS. Modify you say? who does the spring calcs, ride height, matches them to the shocks and tyres some Bozo at Pedders? - I think I'd rather go for a developed car and one that will suit all driving conditions rather than something that is too specialised.

In my opinion the HSV's represent great value and performance and after having just driven a new R8 on a country run (swapped my GTO with a mate) the new VE suspension is far,far more composed over any road irregularities and bumps - quite frankly the GTO felt like a cart in comparison.

I may not get a new HSV either but it won't be because of the performance or value - it's just I 'm finding it hard to justify driving a 6.0 litre car in the current environment

[Danv8]

They are certainly more special than a modded SS. The SS like ALL holdens past and present has inadequate brakes - the 4 spots 365mm F and 350 R of the HSV's are another generation away from your SS. Modify you say? who does the spring calcs, ride height, matches them to the shocks and tyres some Bozo at Pedders? - I think I'd rather go for a developed car and one that will suit all driving conditions rather than something that is too specialised.

In my opinion the HSV's represent great value and performance and after having just driven a new R8 on a country run (swapped my GTO with a mate) the new VE suspension is far,far more composed over any road irregularities and bumps - quite frankly the GTO felt like a cart in comparison.

I may not get a new HSV either but it won't be because of the performance or value - it's just I 'm finding it hard to justify driving a 6.0 litre car in the current environment

I can justify it!
Before the world implodes on itself. :)

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

Could the answer be built to order? I'm not sure when HSV stopped doing it but you could go down to Melbourne to see your car built. Is this still the case? If someone really wants the car then they will wait. And to stop any issues with delivery dates why don't they just build a certain number ready for release date on expected sales and then as the model ages just start building to order.

[spank]

yes as far as i know you can go and see your car being built, but really all that is happing is hsv staff bolting on the exhaust, brakes and wheels, bumbers etc, as far a i know HSV dont want to build cars to order because of the way people buy cars, if a dealer has clubbies in stock and someone come in to buy a ss for example, they see a clubbie, and if its readilly available they might pay the extra there and then if they dont have to wait 3 or 4 months for it, its these people not the devoted HSV fans that make up the numbers imo


They are certainly more special than a modded SS. The SS like ALL holdens past and present has inadequate brakes - the 4 spots 365mm F and 350 R of the HSV's are another generation away from your SS. Modify you say? who does the spring calcs, ride height, matches them to the shocks and tyres some Bozo at Pedders? - I think I'd rather go for a developed car and one that will suit all driving conditions rather than something that is too specialised.

In my opinion the HSV's represent great value and performance and after having just driven a new R8 on a country run (swapped my GTO with a mate) the new VE suspension is far,far more composed over any road irregularities and bumps - quite frankly the GTO felt like a cart in comparison.

I may not get a new HSV either but it won't be because of the performance or value - it's just I 'm finding it hard to justify driving a 6.0 litre car in the current environment

but they are just that, a clubby is just a better ss, a gto is just a better monaro, a senator a better calais, and a grange is just a better caprice, i agree that HSV'S are generally good value/performance, but HSV just make too many of them, which stuffs any chance of them holding their money

[michaels1v8]

Could the answer be built to order? I'm not sure when HSV stopped doing it but you could go down to Melbourne to see your car built. Is this still the case? If someone really wants the car then they will wait. And to stop any issues with delivery dates why don't they just build a certain number ready for release date on expected sales and then as the model ages just start building to order.


That should be what happens really probably the best solution. However I bet a few sales are pure impulse because they could get the HSV they want today as its sitting in the car park ready to go. If there wasnt one there they would probably go to the next ford dealer and just pick up a Typhoon cause they have them in stock...

people these days want convenience and to not have to wait for their car to be built

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

That should be what happens really probably the best solution. However I bet a few sales are pure impulse because they could get the HSV they want today as its sitting in the car park ready to go. If there wasnt one there they would probably go to the next ford dealer and just pick up a Typhoon cause they have them in stock...

people these days want convenience and to not have to wait for their car to be built

Thats true I guess, as spanks said as well a lot of their buyers are probably people that had the intention of getting an SS and come home with a Clubby. I know the same thing happened to me but I was looking at the second hand market.
But in having them built to order wouldn't that give the exclusivity people want from HSV? They wouldn't have runout deals then and the HSV's would have a better resale rate over any mass produced FPV. There wouldn't be any wasted builds or left over cars that never get sold. With retained resale you will have dedicated customers and entice new customers with some sort of guarnateed security for their car.
I guess the other flipside of people buying cars on resale is crazy. I guess its just a sign of the times when people can afford new cars every 3-5 years. As a kid I've grown up with my father pretty much buying one car and holding onto it for as long as possible. Never run into the ground always kept in top condition and they have always given us trouble free motoring. Each one he has kept for at least 10 years each.
HSV is now just cashing in on the boom in new car sales and will continue to do untill people change they're buying habbits.

[vysandman]

They are certainly more special than a modded SS. The SS like ALL holdens past and present has inadequate brakes - the 4 spots 365mm F and 350 R of the HSV's are another generation away from your SS. Modify you say? who does the spring calcs, ride height, matches them to the shocks and tyres some Bozo at Pedders? - I think I'd rather go for a developed car and one that will suit all driving conditions rather than something that is too specialised.

In my opinion the HSV's represent great value and performance and after having just driven a new R8 on a country run (swapped my GTO with a mate) the new VE suspension is far,far more composed over any road irregularities and bumps - quite frankly the GTO felt like a cart in comparison.

I may not get a new HSV either but it won't be because of the performance or value - it's just I 'm finding it hard to justify driving a 6.0 litre car in the current environment

Who says you have to go to "some Bozo at Pedders" to get good suspension ? Sure the brakes on a standard Holden are crap but that is why I said a modified SS would be better than a HSV. Wheels or Motor magazine tested an SS in their HSV/Holden vs FPV/Ford shootout a couple of years ago and the standard SS lapped the track quicker than all of them, so maybe the Gonzos at HSV who do "the spring calcs, ride heights and match them to the shocks and tyres", ought to go and spy on the Turkeys at Holden to see how to do it properly. I don't think anything on a HSV would rival anything at NASA, after all HSV didn't invent the wheel .
The new VE suspension should feel far superior over your GTO, it's the next generation. I think it would be fair to say that the suspension in a standard VE SS would be better than your GTO. I'm glad you and others are happy with your HSV's. I have seen the light, to me the Holden product is great and the HSV is just a slightly tarted up Commodore - certainly nothing special like they used to be.
HSV should make 2 tiers of car, the current range they make and some low number specially built High performance ones. Why in 2007 isn't the GTS 7 litre ? Like I said in my initial post, they're not too bad for their money, they're just not what I consider to be either special or high performance.

[spank]

I guess the other flipside of people buying cars on resale is crazy. I guess its just a sign of the times when people can afford new cars every 3-5 years.

trouble is when these people finance the car and in 2 or 3 years (usually how long it takes for a new model to come out) time go to trade it in on a new one, the car is worth way less the payout on the finanace, this is what puts people off , they think that they have bought something exclusive and special and a car that will hold its value (and salesmen push this point) and the HSV cars just dont, and i cant see how this new guy is going to change this part of the business, it will be interesting to see and only time will tell

[goofafidamedes]

I think the closeness between Holden and HSV is now down to the fact that they are getting so closely matched in terms of performance, and with the HSV being a slight step up the price ladder, the investment required to leap HSV along in performance again coupled with the requirement for warrantied and reliable machinery would see the base price of a HSV jump 3 or 4 price brackets. Putting it well and truly beyond it's perceived value zone.

Performance (factory backed anyway) costs a lot of money. Just look at the price of supercars now.

[HSV MALOO]

guys here's a question say they build vz maloo r8 how many are acutally built cause each and every one has there own number...:teach:

[Caprice270]

Depreciation on cars is what keeps new HSVs exclusive if you look at it from one particular viewpoint I'd like to elaborate on now. Lets look at an extreme example to prove the point.

If a HSV GTS did not depreciate at all we would all be able to afford one. Within a year or two of this miraculous end to depreciation on used cars, every employed person in Australia would go to the finance company and get enough cash to buy themselves a HSV GTS, knowing that in 2 years time they could sell it for the same price they bought it.

Soon there would be traffic jams full of brand spanking new HSV GTSs. It would be like a HSV nirvana. Your neighbour, brother, sister, father and village idiot would all be cruising around in their GTS, waiting for the next model to come out so that they could upgrade once again for no cost whatsoever. Shopping centre car parks would be a sea of 2007 model HSVs.

Depreciation on the other hand sorts the men from the boys. It means only a priviledged few get to step into a new HSV GTS. Those few can afford the depreciation, and the higher the depreciation, the less HSVs on the road.

This is why it amazes me that some people want both more exclusivity and less depreciation from their HSV. The two things are mutually exclusive, and the sooner we accept that, the better. Depreciation is here to stay, and for those who prioritise exclusivity, you could even say its their friend.

[lowriding]

Very good post . :deal:

[goofafidamedes]

Depreciation on cars is what keeps new HSVs exclusive if you look at it from one particular viewpoint I'd like to elaborate on now. Lets look at an extreme example to prove the point.

If a HSV GTS did not depreciate at all we would all be able to afford one. Within a year or two of this miraculous end to depreciation on used cars, every employed person in Australia would go to the finance company and get enough cash to buy themselves a HSV GTS, knowing that in 2 years time they could sell it for the same price they bought it.

Soon there would be traffic jams full of brand spanking new HSV GTSs. It would be like a HSV nirvana. Your neighbour, brother, sister, father and village idiot would all be cruising around in their GTS, waiting for the next model to come out so that they could upgrade once again for no cost whatsoever. Shopping centre car parks would be a sea of 2007 model HSVs.

Depreciation on the other hand sorts the men from the boys. It means only a priviledged few get to step into a new HSV GTS. Those few can afford the depreciation, and the higher the depreciation, the less HSVs on the road.

This is why it amazes me that some people want both more exclusivity and less depreciation from their HSV. The two things are mutually exclusive, and the sooner we accept that, the better. Depreciation is here to stay, and for those who prioritise exclusivity, you could even say its their friend.

Yep, exactly right. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Further to that, if there was a guarantee of zero depreciation, or very little - everyone would be on the leases quicker than you can "salary sacrifice". Then, there would be a glut of lease cars coming up for sale at end of lease. Over simplification for sure, but it makes the want for exclusivity and low depreciation seem like wishful thinking. About the only way HSV could ensure that was to build 20 of each model of car. Then HSV wouldn't exist - it would be HSOV. Holden Special Order Vehicles.

The ability to wear the depreciation at the price HSV is at is a very key factor - as you get higher in terms of $$$ in the car market, the high cost of entry and low build/release numbers in this country starts to take over as the key to low depreciation. However, spending $350k could see (SL55 AMG Merc's for example) you lose $200k in 5 years or only $75K in 5 years.

If the build number totals are lower, its far easier to control the market. In HSV's case, building thousands of cars - see the ability to control market appreciation a lot harder. Add the fact people want to move cars on - well you have to accept what the market will pay. In most case, people simply want to buy a bargain 2nd hand and won't pay much for the car - and guess what? - if the owner wants to sell the car on to upgrade they have to accept the price - otherwise they'd have a shed full of HSV's in 20 years time.

[spank]

Depreciation on cars is what keeps new HSVs exclusive if you look at it from one particular viewpoint I'd like to elaborate on now. Lets look at an extreme example to prove the point.

If a HSV GTS did not depreciate at all we would all be able to afford one. Within a year or two of this miraculous end to depreciation on used cars, every employed person in Australia would go to the finance company and get enough cash to buy themselves a HSV GTS, knowing that in 2 years time they could sell it for the same price they bought it.

Soon there would be traffic jams full of brand spanking new HSV GTSs. It would be like a HSV nirvana. Your neighbour, brother, sister, father and village idiot would all be cruising around in their GTS, waiting for the next model to come out so that they could upgrade once again for no cost whatsoever. Shopping centre car parks would be a sea of 2007 model HSVs.

Depreciation on the other hand sorts the men from the boys. It means only a priviledged few get to step into a new HSV GTS. Those few can afford the depreciation, and the higher the depreciation, the less HSVs on the road.

This is why it amazes me that some people want both more exclusivity and less depreciation from their HSV. The two things are mutually exclusive, and the sooner we accept that, the better. Depreciation is here to stay, and for those who prioritise exclusivity, you could even say its their friend.

to me this arguement doesnt make sense, if the car miraculously held its value for 2 years why all of a sudden can everyone afford one, in 2 years time you couldnt sell one at all, you would just go and buy a new one, HSV has a habbit of over supplying the market and heavy discounting of the currant model when the new model comes out, compleatly stuffing the 2nd hand market, i believe there is a balance between exclusivity and the correct amount of depriciation and at the moment HSV is so off the mark it isnt funny, i see where you are comming from dude but i disagree :wave:

[CharlieDontSurf]

if they didnt depreciate you wouldnt be able to sell a 2 year old HSV. Everyone would just buy a new one for the same price!!

You'd be stuck with a car you could never sell. ever

[goofafidamedes]

to me this arguement doesnt make sense, if the car miraculously held its value for 2 years why all of a sudden can everyone afford one, in 2 years time you couldnt sell one at all, you would just go and buy a new one, HSV has a habbit of over supplying the market and heavy discounting of the currant model when the new model comes out, compleatly stuffing the 2nd hand market, i believe there is a balance between exclusivity and the correct amount of depriciation and at the moment HSV is so off the mark it isnt funny, i see where you are comming from dude but i disagree :wave:

I think he's pushing the hypothetical - if you could both have no depreciation and no problem getting rid of the car - the hypothetical long bow to draw, but I don't think HSV owners are chasing that non-level of depreciation. Just a reasonable one.

In the real world though, it's exactly as you describe - if there was no depreciation - you'd be onto a sure thing. :yahoo: (Something you can have fun with for two years then get rid of at the same price you bought it.)

But we know in the real world that if everyone bought one then no-one would be able to get rid of one. If you want an example of everyone backing the same horse - look at Skyline R34 GT-T owners - their cars have dropped massively in value over the last 6-12 months. For cars that are up 9 years old now, that is very disappointing. However, when something gets over-subscribed, there is a "hype" period then inevitable market correction.

Essentially what is happening now is a rolling market correction on HSV's. That's what I think HSV's owners are trying to avoid - which I think that is perfectly reasonable.

But it's like any technology - early adopters get burnt. You buy a HSV model when it first comes out - you get reamed on price when you try and move on. 18 months later the same model can be on sale brand new for a modest discount. But with the market voracity for chasing value - it pushes prices down as time goes on.

Your just lucky it's not like CPU's - 12-18 months on new CPU prices can be a third of what they were when they first come out. It just so happens that with cars a lot of the cost is materials - rather than CPU's where the main cost is R&D.

I definitely see how HSV buyers would like to see HSV try and contribute to excellent resale value though, because at the end of the day the cash isn't chump change.

[lowriding]

ultimately it's the same with every consumer good these days .resale is gone.we are trained to live in a consumer fed frenzy.Look at the dudes that bought plasmas 5 years ago for $20k . Same thing now retails around $2k and to rub it right in ,todays $2k tele is heaps better to boot.

[phunky_monkey]

Depreciation on cars is what keeps new HSVs exclusive if you look at it from one particular viewpoint I'd like to elaborate on now. Lets look at an extreme example to prove the point.

If a HSV GTS did not depreciate at all we would all be able to afford one. Within a year or two of this miraculous end to depreciation on used cars, every employed person in Australia would go to the finance company and get enough cash to buy themselves a HSV GTS, knowing that in 2 years time they could sell it for the same price they bought it.

Soon there would be traffic jams full of brand spanking new HSV GTSs. It would be like a HSV nirvana. Your neighbour, brother, sister, father and village idiot would all be cruising around in their GTS, waiting for the next model to come out so that they could upgrade once again for no cost whatsoever. Shopping centre car parks would be a sea of 2007 model HSVs.

Depreciation on the other hand sorts the men from the boys. It means only a priviledged few get to step into a new HSV GTS. Those few can afford the depreciation, and the higher the depreciation, the less HSVs on the road.

This is why it amazes me that some people want both more exclusivity and less depreciation from their HSV. The two things are mutually exclusive, and the sooner we accept that, the better. Depreciation is here to stay, and for those who prioritise exclusivity, you could even say its their friend.

That is a very extreme hypothetical, as you've pointed out yourself. I see your point, but I also disagree with it.

Exlusivity should be a supply and demand type deal, not 'who can afford to lose the most cash'. This is how other companies are doing it, and it seems to work for them...

We are not trying to say we want no depreciation, that's ridiculous. The reason for the depreciation being so high is that they are over supplying the market, simple as that.

To argue another point, if there are still just as many being produced, then they are going to be sold no matter what, it just means that they will be discounted more heavily until they go. Their depreciation stems from heavy discounting in dealerships, and too many model updates in my opinion. Having a high level of depreciation obviously isn't working for their exclusivity currently. If it was then I wouldn't have been able to purchase a 3 year old clubsport at 21 years of age. The depreciation has obviously worked to my benefit, but would I ever buy a NEW HSV? Not a hope in hell :) This is their problem.

[Holden Man]

I always find it interesting when people say how much money they lost on HSV's and yet the same people will brag how cheap they picked up the cars in the first place ($1000s below the normal price).

If HSV didn't discount as often then depreciation would lessen.

[sv285]

i will always purchase a hsv over a commodore. know matter the price or depreciation. HSV is HSV sitting in one and driving one what a thrill, The monoro looks aged, The GTO still looks the part. Every past Holden looks shite BUT the HSV look good. I agree that HSV should be more exclusive and i would gladly pay another $10,000.00 on top if they were built better.

my status is hsv and would never purchase an SS.. i have had several cars from WRX to BMW ,RX7 and HSV for me are a great car. keep up the good work.
oh this is my 3rd new hsv


LOL

[mymobile]

i went to the hsv factory today and for the first time i saw a white wm grange, after the dissapointment of the motorshow car the white one i saw today has re-ignited my love for the barges, the one at the show did not do the car justice and is different to the ones i saw today as there were a few subtle differences that have made all the difference and im sure that the person responsable for choosing the color of the show car (port wine?)needs his head read, imho, i can only wonder how many others were put off the new grange at the show and like me started pricing bmw's and mercs...

Hi Spank .... my first post but I've been lurking for a while!

So did you happen to get any photos of the new Grange?

I've put down a deposit & order on one some months ago and have been patiently waiting. I too was disappointed with the colour of the Motor Show example.

I've ordered a white one and so therefore am pretty keen to see a pic ...

You mentioned you noticed a few subtle differences .. what were they? I noticed the colour coding of the rear apron on the motor show example versus the HSV web site photos.

Thanks for the info!

Cheers
MM

[spank]

dude my advice is to bring a box of kleenex because when you see the GRANGE in white you will need them, in fact bring spare undies, looks awesome and i will be getting one, dont worry about pictures because they probably wont do it justice anyways no i didnt think to take the camera and i was able to have a good look and sit in the car etc etc, unlike the motorshow, the sides as well as the rear skirt are color coded, i hope you ordered the black int trim because i dont like the biege int with the black rooflining, basically if you order biege trim its beige up to the waist line then black from there on up, so when i order mine i will order all black trim. the only other thing as i mentioned is the wheels, they look crap just like the original 18" ones did on my wk, as mentioned in a previos post i will put on clubby wheels and we will see how the MRC like it, other than that one HORN looking barge .

[mymobile]

dude my advice is to bring a box of kleenex because when you see the GRANGE in white you will need them, in fact bring spare undies, looks awesome and i will be getting one, dont worry about pictures because they probably wont do it justice anyways no i didnt think to take the camera and i was able to have a good look and sit in the car etc etc, unlike the motorshow, the sides as well as the rear skirt are color coded, i hope you ordered the black int trim because i dont like the biege int with the black rooflining, basically if you order biege trim its beige up to the waist line then black from there on up, so when i order mine i will order all black trim. the only other thing as i mentioned is the wheels, they look crap just like the original 18" ones did on my wk, as mentioned in a previos post i will put on clubby wheels and we will see how the MRC like it, other than that one HORN looking barge .

Awesome! Thanks Spank! I ordered White with Onyx (black) interior ... Now after reading your post I can't wait to get spent seeing it in the flesh for the first time.

Hurry up HSV ... PLEASE! ;)

[spank]

there were two white ones in the factory being built, i didnt go out the back carpark to see what was out there, the one i sat in etc was going to nsw, and it had all the seat protectors on etc and was ready to go