Toyota

[Mikhael]

THIS IS A THREAD ON TOYOTA AND THEIR DOMINANCE OF THE AUSTRALIAN CAR MARKET.

I posted this elsewhere but will post it here to highlight what is happening in the Australian car market at the moment and how Toyota is shutting out Ford + Holden.

"I was speaking with the sales manager at my local Holden dealer recently while having the car serviced, and asked him how sales were going.
He said they would be good if it wasn't for Toyota buying the market.
He was up against the local Toyota dealer on a fleet of cars and every time he went back to the fleet buyer with a price, the Toyota dealer down the road would undercut him. This kept going on until he couldn't compete anymore and said the Toyota dealer would have been losing money on the deal in the end, but to Toyota, it was a must win, at any cost attitude.........."

This is what Holden and Ford are up against, Toyota are shutting them out.

Toyota domination is a very real concern............

Healthy competition is better for the industry and the consumer..............

Australia needs Holden + Ford to be fit and healthy, otherwise the future looks really bleak indeed.

[IH8FORDS]

I dont understand?
What were they out bidding them on, holdens?

[RICHO]

Toyota have a very different business model to Holden and Ford.

Essentially....
Toyota's goal is to maximise global profit
GM / Ford expect each region to reach / beat profit targets

So what does this mean??
Toyota will produce and sell at rates that ensure global profits are maximised. If there is a low tax rate in one country they produce in, the will take profit at the point of manufacture and if necessary sell at a loss in the country of destination. Conversely in a highly taxed country of manufacture, they are more likely to take a breakeven price or less for the cars but will sell them elsewhere (Exports) and minimise tax. It's why Toyota despite their dominance of the Aussie car market, made only a $10m profit in 06 (from memory)

GM / Ford require source countries to make a profit, so if a car is produced in Germany, Germany must make a profit on sale....in the country of destination the required sales price to avoid a loss on sale will be higher making their product uncompetitive (perhaps one of the reasons Holden now source small cars from Korea rather than the arguably superior product from Germany??)

Essentially its the difference between an International company and Global company...Clearly one of the these two business models is superior to the other.....

[VYBerlinaV8]

This is why Toyota as a company has a value of nearly ten time GM, despite making a similar number of cars each year.

Toyota also uses other smart processes, such as deliberately building less cars than they can sell (when was the last time you saw a genuine discount on a current new Toyota?) - so they don't collect inventory of unsold vehicles. They also have very strict quality control, and their reputation reflects this.

Although I'll probably get shouted down for this, I think that the GMDaewoo effort is likely to greatly improve the quality of GM (and Holden) cars. The Eastern approach to business (a million tiny steps forward) vs Western (great leaps with nothing in between) seems to produce better quality through the model of constant improvement.

Anecdotally, my Berlina has had many more component failures and issues than the Daewoo buzzbox I used to drive around town. Sure it's a more desirable car, faster, etc, but not better quality.

Consider too that Toyotas don't generally have reputations relating to known faults (excessive oil consumption and poor clutches anyone?).

Interestly, I read in WHEELS that when asked who they feared most, Toyota execs answered "Hyundai".



That said... I still love my V8!

[Holden Man]

....Although I'll probably get shouted down for this, I think that the GMDaewoo effort is likely to greatly improve the quality of GM (and Holden) cars. The Eastern approach to business (a million tiny steps forward) vs Western (great leaps with nothing in between) seems to produce better quality through the model of constant improvement...

Yes I agree with that / the koreans are certainly on their way with cars / KIA has just poached the head designer of AUDI (all the great audi products over the last ten years were all his design) / The japs should be worried.

China will be the new korea !

[VYBerlinaV8]

What I hope happens is that Holden gets a few GMDaewoo products in and they turn out to be better quality than the local product, so the local lads go and figure out how the Koreans are doing it better than us, and improve the local operation. Then export, export, export.

If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em.

[monaroCountry1]

This is why Toyota as a company has a value of nearly ten time GM, despite making a similar number of cars each year.

Toyota also uses other smart processes, such as deliberately building less cars than they can sell (when was the last time you saw a genuine discount on a current new Toyota?) - so they don't collect inventory of unsold vehicles. They also have very strict quality control, and their reputation reflects this.

Although I'll probably get shouted down for this, I think that the GMDaewoo effort is likely to greatly improve the quality of GM (and Holden) cars. The Eastern approach to business (a million tiny steps forward) vs Western (great leaps with nothing in between) seems to produce better quality through the model of constant improvement.

Consider too that Toyotas don't generally have reputations relating to known faults (excessive oil consumption and poor clutches anyone?).

Interestly, I read in WHEELS that when asked who they feared most, Toyota execs answered "Hyundai".



That said... I still love my V8!

Ummmm frankly what a load of garbage. This eastern v western approach has nothing to do with car quality. It’s all about quality control. Ill take your example of GM Daewoo, pre GM ownership Daewoo was in a whole heap of trouble with garbage cars and woeful quality control. GM was able to change this around and rehire many of the same retrenched workers. GM implemented better quality control, more $$$$, better research and was able to turn the whole company around.

Toyota having ten times more $$$ than GM, well im not convinced of this either. Im sure that GM would have much more assets than Toyota that they could easily turn into $$$. The main problem with GM has been its North American operations. Health and other union benefits far exceed that of Toyota in the region of ~2k more per car. Toyota as a new player (compared with GM) doesn’t have to deal with the very generous benefits offered by the big 3 in the 70’s.

Toyota hasn’t been limiting car production, obviously you have to have a target but this is basically the same with everyone else. Have a look at the Toyota’ hyped up Tundra trucks, a discount galore. At one stage Toyota didn’t invest in more engineers to keep track with car sales. IMO this has resulted in the increased recalls and reliability problems. Toyota has actually had more recalls than cars produced/sold. Other manufacturers have seen decreases in recalls, except Toyota.

Toyota has recently issued oil sludge problems resulting in many engine replacements and has had several transmission related recalls. Generally people still believe Toyota quality to be so far ahead of the pack, in reality this is no longer the case.

Its true that Toyota fears Hyundais, they even tried to stop common suppliers from supplying parts to Hyundai. Hyundai along with Daewoo are direct competitors to Toyota offering cheap, small, boring mass produced white goods. In a couple of years Toyota should also fear Daewoo since it’s the fastest growing Korean manufacturer, with better products, better support and better design. Daewoo would also have an easier time selling cars to China (2nd largest market) as compared to Toyota. Generally the Chinese love American cars i.e. Buicks and hate Japanese (war history between the two countries).

I say Toyota should enjoy their time in the spotlight…………………..IMO its not gonna last.

[VYBerlinaV8]

Ummmm frankly what a load of garbage.

Toyota having ten times more $$$ than GM, well im not convinced of this either. Im sure that GM would have much more assets than Toyota that they could easily turn into $$$.

I say Toyota should enjoy their time in the spotlight…………………..IMO its not gonna last.


Daewoo is trouble? Financially they got into some hot water, but quality wise I think their products were still better than Holden's. My experience has been that they were more reliable cars than Holden. Having owned a Korean car I have to say I ended up being fairly disappointed in the quality of the Holden product.

I'd be careful with the concept that Toyota isn't massively bigger than GM, because the value of the company says otherwise.

Market capitalisation of Toyota: $US 196.5 Billion
Market capitalisation of GM: $US 18.2 Billion

Do the math.

[clixanup]

I posted this elsewhere but will post it here to highlight what is happening in the Australian car market at the moment and how Toyota is shutting out Ford + Holden.
...
Healthy competition is better for the industry and the consumer..............
So, you're acknowledging that competition is necessary, yet by the same token you seem to think that Ford & Holden deserve some special form of protection?

Your little anecdote was nice, but it was just that. An anecdote. How would a Holden dealer know what margins a Toyota dealer makes? Perhaps Toyota dealers have a different relationship with their mother company. Nobody except a Toyota dealer would know for sure.

Our market is free. If Holden and Ford can't compete against the likes of Toyota, then perhaps they should learn how to.

And yes, I drive a Holden V8.

[monaroCountry1]

Daewoo is trouble? Financially they got into some hot water, but quality wise I think their products were still better than Holden's. My experience has been that they were more reliable cars than Holden. Having owned a Korean car I have to say I ended up being fairly disappointed in the quality of the Holden product.

I'd be careful with the concept that Toyota isn't massively bigger than GM, because the value of the company says otherwise.

Market capitalisation of Toyota: $US 196.5 Billion
Market capitalisation of GM: $US 18.2 Billion

Do the math.

Well quality and reliability are very different. Holden cars generally have a tougher task than many other cars, they are basically the work horse. Driving on country roads, across states, hauling the family, hauling the trailer, driven hard by enthusiasts etc. Also the more technology and equipment in the car the more chances of stuff breaking. Comparing a basically stripped small car (bar AC and radio) to a car packed with goodies isn’t very fair.

I’ve owned Toyota’s in the past, and for every single one they have managed to break down on me (even with proper and regular servicing). In short Toyota’s living off past reputation. Newer built Toyot’a have seen an increase in recalls.

The problem is that company value goes up and down, just like the stock market. You also have to look at other assets. In less than 2 years GM has made a massive turn around. GM shares were basically garbage. Today GM is the largest manufacturer in China and are seeing growth in many parts of the world i.e. South America. You cant just rely on past figures in the auto industry (and any industry) you also have to look at company potential and growth areas and predictions. Right now GM has a better chance for growth than Toyota……………….just have a look at the Australian market, Toyota already offer a different car across board, Holden can still grow by supplying a medium car, more utes, more 4wd, more people movers, more small cars etc.


Perhaps Toyota dealers have a different relationship with their mother company. Nobody except a Toyota dealer would know for sure.

Our market is free. If Holden and Ford can't compete against the likes of Toyota, then perhaps they should learn how to.

And yes, I drive a Holden V8.

It's very difficult to compete (price wise) with a car thats being manufactured at half the costs (through cheaper labout rates from 3rd world countries). It's also difficult to compete with a company that tries to rip off the tax office (and not pay the proper amount of taxes). It's also very difficult to compete with a company that's supported by its country through unfare currency manipulation.

[clixanup]

In short Toyota’s living off past reputation.
How did they get that reputation? :idea:

Simple answer: they were building high quality, reliable cars when every other manufacturer in Australia was building junk.

You can say what you like about the Tundra trucks. They're built in America for Americans, so what happens to them is completely irrelevant here.

It's very difficult to compete (price wise) with a car thats being manufactured at half the costs (through cheaper labout rates from 3rd world countries).
*cough* Korean Barina *cough*

It's also difficult to compete with a company that tries to rip off the tax office (and not pay the proper amount of taxes).
*cough* Victoria's Tax-Funded Holden Win (http://www.abc.net.au/am/stories/s225454.htm) *cough*

It's also very difficult to compete with a company that's supported by its country through unfare currency manipulation.
GM are so good at this, that Harvard University press has published a series of books about them. The profits arising from foreign exchange make up a fair sized chunk of GM's global bottom line. The same could be said of any company operating in as many countries as GM and Toyota.

General Motors wrote the book on monopolistic behaviour in the car industry.

[muzza]

Isn't it funny how Toyota can sell the most (or nearly) the most cars in the Australian market and only make $10M profit in a year?

"Toyota is the biggest of the four car makers by revenue, but its earnings record is dismal. Since 1998, when it posted a profit of $75 million on turnover of $4.7 billion, its results have moved in a narrow range between a profit of $16 million and a loss of $6.3 million.

The string of essentially break-even results has been made during a period when revenue has rocketed from $4.7 billion to $6.2 billion and vehicle sales have risen from 158,000 in 1998 to 186,000 in 2003." Quote from Ian Porter
March 10, 2004 - theage.com.au

The ATO and industry observers think it is likely that the "transfer pricing" of parts and built up cars is being dodgied to send lots of $Au overseas to avoid paying tax on it here. I know this actually happens with many of the "overpriced" parts they import - the ATO sure think so as they are chasing possibly up to $1B in tax from them.

There's no doubt TMC is highly profitable around the world and it gives them plenty of cash to be able to "buy" market share by selling fleet cars at apparently cut throat rates that the locals can't match.

I'm sure part of the TMC plan is to build lots of good reliable but bland and understressed (lo-po)cars (which LOTS of people seem to like to buy), offer a bit of everything in every market segment and use their profits to slowly bleed the locals and weaken the competition over time.

[Mikhael]

I dont understand?
What were they out bidding them on, holdens?

Of course.

A fleet of Commodores versus a fleet of Aurions.

[seldo]

How did they get that reputation? :idea:

Simple answer: they were building high quality, reliable cars when every other manufacturer in Australia was building junk..........
.
A mate of mine runs a fleet of about 25 Camry V6s as reps cars and absolutely swears by them. Over the last 12 years they have turned them over every 3 yrs/ 200ks and he is amazed they they just never have anything go wrong. Apart from fastidious log-book servicing, they never lay a spanner on them.
They may be bland but they really are reliable...which is what Ma and Pa Public want...

[ShanghaiVZ]

That said, the cardigan wearer's know where to go, the other 99% will stay this side :D

[Mikhael]

Isn't it funny how Toyota can sell the most (or nearly) the most cars in the Australian market and only make $10M profit in a year?

"Toyota is the biggest of the four car makers by revenue, but its earnings record is dismal. Since 1998, when it posted a profit of $75 million on turnover of $4.7 billion, its results have moved in a narrow range between a profit of $16 million and a loss of $6.3 million.

The string of essentially break-even results has been made during a period when revenue has rocketed from $4.7 billion to $6.2 billion and vehicle sales have risen from 158,000 in 1998 to 186,000 in 2003." Quote from Ian Porter
March 10, 2004 - theage.com.au

The ATO and industry observers think it is likely that the "transfer pricing" of parts and built up cars is being dodgied to send lots of $Au overseas to avoid paying tax on it here. I know this actually happens with many of the "overpriced" parts they import - the ATO sure think so as they are chasing possibly up to $1B in tax from them.

There's no doubt TMC is highly profitable around the world and it gives them plenty of cash to be able to "buy" market share by selling fleet cars at apparently cut throat rates that the locals can't match.

I'm sure part of the TMC plan is to build lots of good reliable but bland and understressed (lo-po)cars (which LOTS of people seem to like to buy), offer a bit of everything in every market segment and use their profits to slowly bleed the locals and weaken the competition over time.

Well said.

The ATO needs to make Toyota accountable and pay their fair share of tax. :vpo:

[clixanup]

They may be bland but they really are reliable...which is what Ma and Pa Public want...
Too right Seldo.

Isn't it funny how Toyota can sell the most (or nearly) the most cars in the Australian market and only make $10M profit in a year?
Hmm.... interesting thought. I think I've found a clue in another thread: http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=889829&postcount=7

Can you spot it? :idea:

[Marco]

I don't really like Toyota's products much and I doubt I'd buy anything from them other than one of their commercial vehicles if I ever needed something like that, but then, I'm not their target market because I'm a car enthusiast. And I think that's the key point to note here - their products are not intended for people like us.

Toyota is all about selling middle of the road products to people who don't really care about cars. They dont excite with performance (Toyota's top performance car in this country is the...Aurion Sportivo!), they don't handle well, they don't stop you in your tracks with their looks, but they do get you around with minimum fuss and that is what lots of people want in a car.

I like their business model because it's a smart one that works very well - basically, cars as appliances. I think Hyundai is following the same approach (none of their models are that great and there's no performance cars there, but they're like a Toyota with better value for money). It saddens me that cars are such a basic commodity now that they're no more important to some people than their toaster, but that's the way it is.

I, however, intend to only ever spend my car money with manufacturers who sell products that really do it for me. Toyota can chase that dollar if they like, but I don't think they ever will.

[monaroCountry1]

Too right Seldo.

Hmm.... interesting thought. I think I've found a clue in another thread: http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=889829&postcount=7

Can you spot it? :idea:



hmmmmmm I think I found the true reason for Toyota's dismal profits..............


Toyota disputes huge tax bill

By Ian Porter
March 10, 2004



The Toyota tax bill arises from suspected transfer pricing, where a company moves profits from one country to another by changing the prices of vehicles and parts.
Picture: Paul Harris

Toyota Australia yesterday dismissed as "unrealistic" and "theoretical" the approach the Australian Tax Office uses to calculate the tax bills of multinationals operating in Australia.

The company is believed to have been handed an assessment for unpaid tax and penalties of more than $400 million - possibly up to $1 billion - on the pricing of imported vehicles.

Both sides yesterday denied any knowledge of how the ATO's water-tight security about individual tax payers may have been breached. The tax bill arises from suspected transfer pricing, where a company moves profits between countries by changing the prices of vehicles and parts.

"It's not $1 billion," was all executive chairman John Conomos would say yesterday about the disputed tax assessment.

"Basically it is theoretical. They deem what profit a corporation of our size should make, in their eyes," he said. "It is unrealistic in the case of Toyota Australia."

The outcome of the dispute will have no bearing on the future of the Altona factory.

The audit of Toyota is one of many conducted by the ATO in a vigorous crackdown on profit-shifting in the past five years.

"We are seeing an increasing use of arrangements that purportedly shift risks from Australian operations to other parts of the world to reduce the profits attributable to the Australian operations," tax commissioner Michael Carmody said in a speech last year.

"Since 1999 we have undertaken more than 400 transfer pricing risk reviews and completed nearly 100 audits, resulting in $615 million additional tax and penalties being raised."

Toyota is the biggest of the four car makers by revenue, but its earnings record is dismal. Since 1998, when it posted a profit of $75 million on turnover of $4.7 billion, its results have moved in a narrow range between a profit of $16 million and a loss of $6.3 million.

The string of essentially break-even results has been made during a period when revenue has rocketed from $4.7 billion to $6.2 billion and vehicle sales have risen from 158,000 in 1998 to 186,000 in 2003.

The results have been remarkably consistent, given that the company's main currency, the yen, has fluctuated from 86 to the dollar in 1998, down to 56 in 2001 and back up to 82 now.

[burnout9]

Ummmm frankly what a load of garbage. This eastern v western approach has nothing to do with car quality. It’s all about quality control. Ill take your example of GM Daewoo, pre GM ownership Daewoo was in a whole heap of trouble with garbage cars and woeful quality control. GM was able to change this around and rehire many of the same retrenched workers. GM implemented better quality control, more $$$$, better research and was able to turn the whole company around.

Toyota having ten times more $$$ than GM, well im not convinced of this either. Im sure that GM would have much more assets than Toyota that they could easily turn into $$$. The main problem with GM has been its North American operations. Health and other union benefits far exceed that of Toyota in the region of ~2k more per car. Toyota as a new player (compared with GM) doesn’t have to deal with the very generous benefits offered by the big 3 in the 70’s.

Toyota hasn’t been limiting car production, obviously you have to have a target but this is basically the same with everyone else. Have a look at the Toyota’ hyped up Tundra trucks, a discount galore. At one stage Toyota didn’t invest in more engineers to keep track with car sales. IMO this has resulted in the increased recalls and reliability problems. Toyota has actually had more recalls than cars produced/sold. Other manufacturers have seen decreases in recalls, except Toyota.

Toyota has recently issued oil sludge problems resulting in many engine replacements and has had several transmission related recalls. Generally people still believe Toyota quality to be so far ahead of the pack, in reality this is no longer the case.

Its true that Toyota fears Hyundais, they even tried to stop common suppliers from supplying parts to Hyundai. Hyundai along with Daewoo are direct competitors to Toyota offering cheap, small, boring mass produced white goods. In a couple of years Toyota should also fear Daewoo since it’s the fastest growing Korean manufacturer, with better products, better support and better design. Daewoo would also have an easier time selling cars to China (2nd largest market) as compared to Toyota. Generally the Chinese love American cars i.e. Buicks and hate Japanese (war history between the two countries).

I say Toyota should enjoy their time in the spotlight…………………..IMO its not gonna last.

mate what is your problem with toyota?

I work on toyota's and all sorts of other makes and i can sure as hell tell you that toyota's are still a mile ahead of most makes with out a doubt! and if u think not your seriously kidding yourself

and yes they do have problem's as does all makes but far less than you seem to think

[Mikhael]

mate what is your problem with toyota?

I work on toyota's and all sorts of other makes and i can sure as hell tell you that toyota's are still a mile ahead of most makes with out a doubt! and if u think not your seriously kidding yourself

and yes they do have problem's as does all makes but far less than you seem to think

monaroCountry1 has got a point, they have had alot of recalls around the world in the past year.

This might have something to do with growing too fast and quailty suffering.

[Peter B - CV8]

A mate of mine runs a fleet of about 25 Camry V6s as reps cars and absolutely swears by them. Over the last 12 years they have turned them over every 3 yrs/ 200ks and he is amazed they they just never have anything go wrong. Apart from fastidious log-book servicing, they never lay a spanner on them.
They may be bland but they really are reliable...which is what Ma and Pa Public want...

Good point... Ther is a car rental place here in Sydney (called "No Birds" or something) that has about 120 cars. Every single one of them is a white Toyota Echo with air & steer. You can only ask for an auto or manual.
I spoke to their fleet director - and he swears by them. They operate at the budget end of the market and these cars just never fail.

[Mikhael]

mate what is your problem with toyota?

I work on toyota's and all sorts of other makes and i can sure as hell tell you that toyota's are still a mile ahead of most makes with out a doubt! and if u think not your seriously kidding yourself

and yes they do have problem's as does all makes but far less than you seem to think

monaroCountry1 has got a point, they have had alot of recalls around the world in the past year.

This might have something to do with growing too fast and quailty suffering.

[emg]

mate what is your problem with toyota?

I work on toyota's and all sorts of other makes and i can sure as hell tell you that toyota's are still a mile ahead of most makes with out a doubt! and if u think not your seriously kidding yourself

and yes they do have problem's as does all makes but far less than you seem to think

totally agree... i would go back to a toyota anyday.

[Marco]

I'd never buy one.

Reliability is nice, and I expect it from any car that I own, but I'd much rather take the chance on a slightly less reliable but nice to drive car. I'm even considering taking this to the extreme and getting an Italian car :)

If you're a car nut, then life's too short not to drive a car that does it for you - which is exactly why I bought an SS.

[Mikhael]

Good point... Ther is a car rental place here in Sydney (called "No Birds" or something) that has about 120 cars. Every single one of them is a white Toyota Echo with air & steer. You can only ask for an auto or manual.
I spoke to their fleet director - and he swears by them. They operate at the budget end of the market and these cars just never fail.

I think they are Corolla's, not Echo's. Same appliance, different fridge.........

But yeah, your guaranteed just about every rental car company, whether it's Avis, Thrifty, Budget or Hertz, they all have masses of Toyota's on their fleet for rent now.

They have become fleet fodder.........

Used car buyers be warned, do not buy ex rentals as most of them are thrashed !!!

[Berlina5.7]

It may be past glory, but the 90's the better built Holden's came off the Toyota production line. Apollos and Novas rarely need work done to them compared with the Holden and Opel(yuk) built stuff from the same era. But yeah, the Toyotas are a bit sanitary in the looks and handling depts.

Also, has anyone tried Toyota air conditioning? Flippin' Freezing! Even on a
46C day!

[emg]

I'd never buy one.

Reliability is nice, and I expect it from any car that I own, but I'd much rather take the chance on a slightly less reliable but nice to drive car. I'm even considering taking this to the extreme and getting an Italian car :)

If you're a car nut, then life's too short not to drive a car that does it for you - which is exactly why I bought an SS.

lets expand a little on "less reliable" Clutches? Diff? clunky suspension? drivetrain lash, rattling interior bits? I can't wait to go back to something QUIET and solid so I can enjoy my bloody music at a decent volume without going deaf.

[clixanup]

hmmmmmm I think I found the true reason for Toyota's dismal profits..............
When making a guesstimation, the ATO always seem to overdo it. Seen it hundreds of times myself. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this results in no extra taxes being paid.

I challenge you to talk to the financial controller of any company which supplies Holden, Ford and Toyota with componentry and find out which of the 3 pays the most promptly and at the highest rates. I have a few clients in exactly this position. Have a guess what they tell me??

Perhaps Toyota are doing more for this country than you realise. Holden and Ford seem to have no problems pushing their suppliers out of business.

Also, has anyone tried Toyota air conditioning? Flippin' Freezing! Even on a 46C day!
That was my favourite feature when I had mine. Used to turn it on full and watch my passengers turn white... :lol:

[Mikhael]

I'd never buy one.

Reliability is nice, and I expect it from any car that I own,

I'm with you on this one Marco.

99.9% of brand new cars these days are reliable, we have come along way in 20 years, so it's a fair bet you will be safe no matter what you choose.

The pack have caught Toyota on this one.

So why go for boring, when you can have something with character (and good looks.)

The pack have passed Toyota on this one.

:idea:

[monaroCountry1]

When making a guesstimation, the ATO always seem to overdo it. Seen it hundreds of times myself. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this results in no extra taxes being paid.


Now now clixanup ill say it one more time so ill sink in........
-Profit $75 million
-Turnover $4700 million

Now (75/4700)x100 = 1.596% profit margin for Toyota. No wonder the ATO's asking questions.



1 000 000I challenge you to talk to the financial controller of any company which supplies Holden, Ford and Toyota with componentry and find out which of the 3 pays the most promptly and at the highest rates. I have a few clients in exactly this position. Have a guess what they tell me??

Now guess now much Holden pumped into the Australian economy developing the VE and compare this to Toyota's development $$$$ (in Australia). The effects of Holden and Ford is far more far reaching than just suppliers....look at their design, engineering, research and university partnerships.








NEWS JUST IN...................
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=agK0KULayqYQ&refer=home

Toyota May Expand Affiliations to Prevent Takeovers

April 19 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's second-largest carmaker, may buy stakes in Japanese suppliers that it is not affiliated with to prevent possible takeover attempts by overseas companies.

New rules taking effect May 1 will allow overseas firms to buy Japanese companies with stock, potentially increasing the amount of buyouts in the country. Toyota already owns stakes in Japan's four largest car parts makers including Denso Corp. and Aisin Seiki Co.

``Carmakers should protect their suppliers so that they don't cross over into foreign ownership,'' said Atsushi Kawai, an auto analyst in Tokyo with Mizuho Investors Securities Co. ``There's no chance that a foreign firm would try to fight with Toyota to buy one of its affiliates.''




For some reason this feels like Toyota's trying to hoard everything, preventing foreign entities from gaining a foothold in Japan. Anti competition.....could be.

I see this opening up as the beginning of the end for the once mighty Toyota. It's about time the Japanese government stop protecting Japanese industries.

The only thing they have to do now is stop manipulating their currency and change its unfair rego laws.

[555]

Thought this was interesting. With so many cars surveyed, it carries some weight in terms of reliability and I think goes a long way to explaining Toyotas success



Findings are based on Consumer Reports' 2005 survey of subscribers to both its magazine and web site, www.ConsumerReports.org (http://www.consumerreports.org/). This year, the survey reached a milestone as CR gathered reliability information on more than one million vehicles in total-the most ever received.
The survey was conducted in the spring of 2005 and covered 1998 to 2005 models. The total number of vehicles included is up from 810,000 in 2004 and 675,000 in 2003.
Among the other findings in New Car Preview 2006:

• Of the 31 cars that earned Consumer Reports top rating for predicted reliability, 29 were Japanese and two were domestic models. There are no European models on that list. Of the 29 vehicles from Japanese manufacturers, about half -- 15 -- are from Toyota and its Lexus division and eight are from Honda. The two domestic models making the list are the previous generation Chevrolet Monte Carlo (redesigned for 2006) and the new-for-2005 Mercury Mariner.

• CR's list of sedans with the worst predicted reliability includes some of Europe's most expensive nameplates such as the Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, and the Mercedes-Benz S-Class. Other sedans making the list of "Least Reliable" cars include the Jaguar S-Type, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Saab 9-3, and the V8- powered BMW 5 Series.

Toyota, along with its Lexus division, makes more than half of the sedans and small cars that earned Consumer Reports highest reliability rating. All the others that earned this rating were also Japanese, including the Honda Accord and previous-generation Civic; the 2006 Infiniti M35/45; and nonturbo models of the Subaru Impreza.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/cr_car_reliability.html

[blackjack]

Well I can't say much about their business model,

But when it comes to dealing with there automotive suppliers, Toyota generally get there own engineers involved to help improve a component manufactures quality unlike others companies, which expect this responsibility to be entirely the supplier's!

Have any of you guys compared a new Camry against a VE in regards to quality? Camry wins hands down!

Don't get me wrong I would want to drive one of the soulless cars but its hard not to respect the quality an reliability of them!

[monaroCountry1]

Have any of you guys compared a new Camry against a VE in regards to quality? Camry wins hands down!

Not according to some reports..................

[clixanup]

Now (75/4700)x100 = 1.596% profit margin for Toyota. No wonder the ATO's asking questions.
You don't have to be a Harvard graduate to see that the motor industry in this country is in decline. You don't see how present conditions in that particular industry could result in such slim profits??

For some reason this feels like Toyota's trying to hoard everything, preventing foreign entities from gaining a foothold in Japan. Anti competition.....could be.
:lmao: As I mentioned previously, General Motors wrote the book on anti-competitive and monopolistic practises. Now you're crying because another company *might* be giving them back a dose of their own medicine? :lmao:

Don't get me wrong I would not want to drive one of the soulless cars but its hard not to respect the quality an reliability of them!
Agree 100%.

[burnout9]

Not according to some reports..................

the camry is made here so the quality isnt as good as the jap stuff

just like some of the corolla's are built it south africa and the higher spec one's are jap made. but still they are built to a standard that toyota and the customers expect.

yeh i know they are as bland as your fridge but they great cars, im a mechanic and work on all sorts of makes and models and toyota are buy far the best vehicle bar none

[RICHO]

Well I can't say much about their business model,

But when it comes to dealing with there automotive suppliers, Toyota generally get there own engineers involved to help improve a component manufactures quality unlike others companies, which expect this responsibility to be entirely the supplier's!

Have any of you guys compared a new Camry against a VE in regards to quality? Camry wins hands down!

Don't get me wrong I would want to drive one of the soulless cars but its hard not to respect the quality an reliability of them!

Ford, Toyota and Holden ALL work with their suppliers to help improve quality, I know that at Ford, teams of process improvement / re-engineering experts do work directly at suppliers, with supplier staff to help improve processes and supply quality. It ain't just Toyota that does this at all

Ultimately the BIGGEST quality driver that Toyota has is the % of parts they carry over from model to model. The more carry over parts that are utilised the greater the greater the certainty that these parts are both proven and reliable. You'll notice that with Toyota there is never a "major" redesign with wholesale changes to models within a single lifecycle. Instead a model is refreshed over 2-3 iterations, with the last changes typically being visual changes.... Their reputation for reliability comes from using proven parts and updating in manageable stages.......

GM / Ford.......tend to do visual (appearance and content changes) as a priority, then massive engineering changes with new models..... And new models in this context have a far greater opportunity for failures, because while subjected to extensive testing many components have not been proven in the real world in other models / prior generation vehicles over extended periods of real life service.

As for buying a Toyota............brand loyalties aside, if they produced a decent RWD sedan with a Hipo V8, that offered great performance, from a purely quality perspective it would have to be on my shopping list.

[blackjack]

Richo your right the all do work with suppliers, but not as much as what Toyota does.

Also your right about using their policy for using parts for as long as they can without a change for a lot of things. Which significantly helps with quality for the reasons you've mentioned.

On another you don't drive a purple BA XR8 ute by any chance?

Toyota do make a decent RWD 8 but its called a LEXUS :p

Cheers
Steve

[VYBerlinaV8]

Ultimately the BIGGEST quality driver that Toyota has is the % of parts they carry over from model to model. The more carry over parts that are utilised the greater the greater the certainty that these parts are both proven and reliable. You'll notice that with Toyota there is never a "major" redesign with wholesale changes to models within a single lifecycle. Instead a model is refreshed over 2-3 iterations, with the last changes typically being visual changes.... Their reputation for reliability comes from using proven parts and updating in manageable stages.......

GM / Ford.......tend to do visual (appearance and content changes) as a priority, then massive engineering changes with new models..... And new models in this context have a far greater opportunity for failures, because while subjected to extensive testing many components have not been proven in the real world in other models / prior generation vehicles over extended periods of real life service.




A million tiny steps forward versus a few big leaps.:idea:

[RICHO]

A million tiny steps forward versus a few big leaps.:idea:

Nahhhhhh.....It'll never catch on!!

[monaroCountry1]

the camry is made here so the quality isnt as good as the jap stuff

The quality issues which Toyota tried to cover up were actually from Japanese plants manned by Japanese workers.

Make up your mind, now your saying that some toyota’s are of low quality whereas before Toyota was the pinnacle of engineering and quality?

You make it sound like the Japanese are some sort of superior race, the same idiotic ideology that the Nazis had. Toyota’s success had allot to do with the protectionist attitudes of its government and the fact that they don’t have the same health/union issues as America’s big 3.


You don't have to be a Harvard graduate to see that the motor industry in this country is in decline. You don't see how present conditions in that particular industry could result in such slim profits??

There is slim profit and there is almost non existent profit. Even Holden and Ford with lower unit sales than Toyota (and according to the media in a worse situation) has posted a far larger profit. 1.5% profit is laughable in anyone’s language, you’ll be silly if you tried to deny this.


As I mentioned previously, General Motors wrote the book on anti-competitive and monopolistic practises. Now you're crying because another company *might* be giving them back a dose of their own medicine?

No good for Toyota, its this attitude and diversification that has caused most of GM’s current troubles. Hopefully the same thing will happen to Toyota.

What I don’t like is the fact that OS companies couldn’t own Japanese companies……………..unlike the rest of the developed world.

[clixanup]

Even Holden and Ford with lower unit sales than Toyota (and according to the media in a worse situation) has posted a far larger profit.
Which of the three doesn't screw it's suppliers to the wall? Look at what has happened to Ion, AJAX, Pilkington, Empire, and several other smaller businesses.

What did Holden do when these companies were in financial trouble? What did Toyota do?

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that there is only one company willing and able to "prop up" local industries.

The other two can't wait to start manufacturing "our" family sedans in China, but can't do so until the local industry is dead.

[Bazza76d]

You know I have said it before but for a bunch of Holden fans a lot really don't seem to like them to much. If you prefer Toyota become a member of there site and leave us Holden lovers alone!

[clixanup]

You know I have said it before but for a bunch of Holden fans a lot really don't seem to like them to much. If you prefer Toyota become a member of there site and leave us Holden lovers alone!
If you're referring to me, I have never said that I don't like Holden. I do drive one, after all. It doesn't matter to me what I drive. As long as it goes well and is comfortable to drive.

The thing that disturbs me is that the number of one-eyed rednecks on this forum seems to be increasing. :(

[monaroCountry1]

Which of the three doesn't screw it's suppliers to the wall? Look at what has happened to Ion, AJAX, Pilkington, Empire, and several other smaller businesses.

What did Holden do when these companies were in financial trouble? What did Toyota do?

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that there is only one company willing and able to "prop up" local industries.

The other two can't wait to start manufacturing "our" family sedans in China, but can't do so until the local industry is dead.

Toyota's proposed move in Japan is NOT there to benifit suppliers, its there to benifit TOYOTA. Toyota doesnt want any competition are are more than willing to throw their weight around and act like bullies. Its the same as Toyota preventing its suppliers from supplying Hyundai.

Now..................how much has Toyota invested in Australia creating the Camry and hole much has Holden invested in creating the VE? = Toyota in the region of 500million, Holden in the region of 1.2 billion. Why doesnt Toyota Aust develop its own unique Camry? this should benifit Australia's auto industry (as compared with ripping off a yank design).

Regarding AJAX
-Ajax was thrown a lifeline this week by several car companies, including Holden, after it made a $10 million request to its motoring customers to underwrite an $8 million shortfall in worker entitlements.

Holden should not risk its own future to continually top up Ajaxs' coffers. Its upto Ajax to sort out bad management.

Pilkington
-"We have, and have to have, a strong local supply base if we're going to survive. (But) frankly, there are some commodities that you can’t be competitive (with) in our economy, and it doesn't do any good to keep trying to pour money into those commodities and trying to be competitive.

"In the global business that we're in, you have got to know whether you can be competitive or not. If you can't, you can't keep throwing good money after bad.

[Ghia351]

Which of the three doesn't screw it's suppliers to the wall? Look at what has happened to Ion, AJAX, Pilkington, Empire, and several other smaller businesses.

What did Holden do when these companies were in financial trouble? What did Toyota do?
I think you'll find Ion's own management screwed themselves up by building a plant for supplying Holden parts and yet based their manufacturing requirments and costings on production runs double that required by Holden....and then their building costs just blew out again....if you were Holden why would you prop up a supplier when they get such "basics" wrong?

[monaroCountry1]

The thing that disturbs me is that the number of one-eyed rednecks on this forum seems to be increasing.

Red-neck??????

More like informed buyers and forumers.

I personally don’t think that Toyota has a worthwhile car (currently), they are boring, gutless, and more suitable for pensioners. It’s owners are usually ill-informed sheep’s that believe in media hype. Judging by the numbers of blinged up, sticker riddled, loud exhaust, and neon adorned Camry / corollas and celicas………….toyota also aimed its products to P-plated hoons, ricers and wanna-be Japs racers.

My advice is get a life and buy something better. If you have to buy a Jap car then but a better Jap car like a Nissan.

[SchrgdVSV6]

You know I have said it before but for a bunch of Holden fans a lot really don't seem to like them to much. If you prefer Toyota become a member of there site and leave us Holden lovers alone!
The funny thing is there is more "Toyota corp" type threads on this Forum than any other Toyota forum I have ever visited.

As far as this thread goes... I fully expect Toyota to play hard to win more market share in Aus and around the world. This is nothing new. I also expect Holden and Ford to do the same and also up their exports.

As for build quality, I can only comment on my dad's camry which I drove for 5yrs and the only time it failed was when the battery went flat (my fault) and when I ran out of fuel (my fault again). I thrashed the crap out of it and still sold it for a good price. During that time I bought the VS for myself and it had some warranty work done, rattled a bit too much, (also ran out of fuel and had a flat battery) but even though it wasnt as solid as the camry, was OK as a daily.
I tend to rent alot of Toyotas, Holdens and Fords when I go back to Perth and nowadays all manufacturers have higher standards and are on a similar level, but it wasnt this way in the past.

[clixanup]

As for build quality, I can only comment on my dad's camry
And your Supra?

[emg]

Red-neck??????

More like informed buyers and forumers.

I personally don’t think that Toyota has a worthwhile car (currently), they are boring, gutless, and more suitable for pensioners. It’s owners are usually ill-informed sheep’s that believe in media hype. Judging by the numbers of blinged up, sticker riddled, loud exhaust, and neon adorned Camry / corollas and celicas………….toyota also aimed its products to P-plated hoons, ricers and wanna-be Japs racers.

My advice is get a life and buy something better. If you have to buy a Jap car then but a better Jap car like a Nissan.

the only P-plate hoons I see are guys in fully sick noisy VL's and noisy old vn-vs series commos, ricers are usually in nissan pulsars and mitsubishi mirages.. havent seen any hoons in toyotas apart from a few kick ass supras.. all respect to the supra.

What exactly do you mean by "better" ?

The only thing a pre VE commodore has going for it is rwd and a v8? how many non holden/ford cars go back for warranty claims like diffs, clutches, engine rebuilds this and that.. man, we've been here before. If you love your commos that much - good for you... but it's wrong to bag everything else just because you can't do a "better" burnout in them

[SchrgdVSV6]

And your Supra?
As a Commodore owner (still had the VS at the time) I chose a 10yr old Toyota over an almost new VX Clubby. What does that tell you? Just the thud of the door closing and the "cockpit" was something that impressed me, let alone the test drive. I took it to a few Vic LS1 meets (back in the good ol days) and even had some members asking to be taken for a ride (which I happily did).

btw - In my last post I was trying to compare two lower cost cars who compete with each other.

[Holden Man]

The thing that disturbs me is that the number of one-eyed rednecks on this forum seems to be increasing. :(

Mah...I say Mah...get me me gun...theres gonna be some shooting goin on..!
(I'm a good aim with one eye !!)

WHAT A STUPID STATEMENT

Toyota marketers have well and truly sucked you in havn't they.

Anyone notice the ANTI-AUSTRALIAN views coming from some members.
(that what ever Australian companies do is crap and will never match other brands from overseas)

(PS even though there is a Toyota plant here / Toyota is NOT Australian)

Toyota are like the coca cola of cars ! - all brand / no substance

[emg]

not anti-australian

try anti-average quality.

[clixanup]

(PS even though there is a Toyota plant here / Toyota is NOT Australian)
And Holden? I hate to say it buddy, but there are no native Australian car manufacturers. They all come from overseas.

Or have you been sucked in by their marketing? :hide:

Did you know that even the most "Australian" Holden - The mighty Kingswood - was an American car first? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Kingswood

[chrism697]

Toyota are like the coca cola of cars ! - all brand / no substance

That is also a stupid statement a really really stupid statement.........whilst toyotas dont appeal to me, to say they are "all brand and no substance" is stupid, really stupid......toyota quality is always benchmarked by design studios around the world, and they always rate very high with customer satisfaction surveys etc,

JD powers always rates toyota quality high, and JD powers surveys are highly regarded by OEM's and suppliers all around the world

and i am in no way being "anti-australian" just un-biased...... the VE is a world class car too

and also what makes coca-cola "all brand and no substance"???? is that just based on your opinion of the taste of the drink? its a drink!!! it obviously has substance as it built its brand upon its product

[Carby]

Toyota make OK cars but as far as the biggest selling type car in the country Commodore /Falcon type their past offerings (V6 Camry's, Avalon and now Aurion) have not done it for them.

Most people seem to think that it is because they have not done a similar vehicle on a RWD platform - I tend to agree. But this is the worrying part about Toyota - they could engineer such a car - they are the most cashed up car operator in Australia (and probably world)- it would be easy for them to do, but they have clearly not wanted too BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CHANGE US OVER TO THEIR WAY OF THINKING - IE FWD! They want to make us drive large FWD's, and we Aussies, in the main, have resisted the temptation. Stuff them - just because FWD cars are heaps cheaper to manufacturer doesn't mean I wish to buy their product!!

Won't ever see any of my money go to this lot.:p

[VYBerlinaV8]

Perhaps we need to clearly define that we are NOT discussing desirability, fun factor, performance, or even ownership satisfaction. It's supposed to be a discussion about how Toyota do things compared with other manufacturers.

No one is saying "Holden is crap", or "all Australian manufacturers are crap". Some of us (me included) are saying that Holden quality is not at the same level as Toyota. Don't forget most of us still own (and love) Holdens!

The point of the thread is that the automotive manufacturing industry is going through a shakeup on a global scale, and that things are beginning to change. It's supposed to be a discussion in that context.

[Holden Man]

...That is also a stupid statement a really really stupid statement.........whilst toyotas dont appeal to me, to say they are "all brand and no substance" is stupid, really stupid......toyota quality is always benchmarked by design studios around the world, and they always rate very high with customer satisfaction surveys etc,...

(do you put enough stupids in there?)
Why would a DESIGN studio benchmark Toyota QUALITY wouldn't that be the engineers job ?! (And I think you will find most engineers benchmark the German cars for quality / regardless of where Toyota finish in surveys)


...JD powers always rates toyota quality high, and JD powers surveys are highly regarded by OEM's and suppliers all around the world...

Yes they always perform strongly in the JD surveys, but you never see Toyota showing up in the "most desirable cars" list.


...and also what makes coca-cola "all brand and no substance"???? is that just based on your opinion of the taste of the drink? its a drink!!! it obviously has substance as it built its brand upon its product

Coke the actual drink is OK but nothing fantastic but look at all the ads for it.
It sells the COKE name not the drink. All the marketing doesn't really tell you about the actual drink / just that "cool" things will happen when you drink it.

Toyota is OK but nothing fantastic...Infact how many have you driven and thought wow can't wait to drive that again?

Have you driven any ?

I have - all boring / no character. (with the exception of their 4WD range)

yaris - yawn
Camry - gutless and yawn (how do they sell these)
Aurion - I admit that it did have power but you didn't feel like using it, yawn.

[VYBerlinaV8]

No offence Holden Man, because I do respect your opinion, but perhaps you could read my last post.

[Holden Man]

And Holden? I hate to say it buddy, but there are no native Australian car manufacturers. They all come from overseas.

Or have you been sucked in by their marketing? :hide:

Did you know that even the most "Australian" Holden - The mighty Kingswood - was an American car first? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Kingswood

Did you know The VE is wholly designed here.

Yes GM own Holden but Holden design cars for us and our tastes. And if Toyota did the same then the Aurion would be RWD and have a V8 option.

Holden are doing great things for GM. Melbourne is seen as the specialist design centre for RWD by GM. Infact Melbourne are doing all sorts of designing for GM even the upcomming Camaro.

[Jac001]

"I was speaking with the sales manager at my local Holden dealer recently while having the car serviced, and asked him how sales were going.
He said they would be good if it wasn't for Toyota buying the market.
He was up against the local Toyota dealer on a fleet of cars and every time he went back to the fleet buyer with a price, the Toyota dealer down the road would undercut him. This kept going on until he couldn't compete anymore and said the Toyota dealer would have been losing money on the deal in the end, but to Toyota, it was a must win, at any cost attitude.........."
Healthy competition is better for the industry and the consumer..............

.

This is interesting, as Holden have purposely increased the price of VE for the fleet market, (that is descreased the discount given to fleet buyers).

[chrism697]

Why would a DESIGN studio benchmark Toyota QUALITY wouldn't that be the engineers job ?! (And I think you will find most engineers benchmark the German cars for quality / regardless of where Toyota finish in surveys)

HAHAHHA. do you know how many engineers work on a DESIGN studio? a lot. generally there are similar amounts of engineers than designers
designers, engineers, CAD designers and studio engineers work together and all benchmark quality, designers dont just draw pretty pictures, they need to think constantly about quality, tooling and manufacturing issues, i dont think you have a good concept of what the design process of a car includes

and yes they do benchmark german cars, but they also benchmark japanese cars korean cars etc.

yes i have driven plenty of toyotas,

and as i said, they dont really appeal to me, and i agree with you are generally boring, but that is largely due to the fact that we (being relatively young males) arent really in their tageted demographic

the simple fact is Toyota does have substance in their product, argueing otherwise is like hitting your head against a brick wall.


Did you know The VE is wholly designed here.

Yes GM own Holden but Holden design cars for us and our tastes. And if Toyota did the same then the Aurion would be RWD and have a V8 option.

Holden are doing great things for GM. Melbourne is seen as the specialist design centre for RWD by GM. Infact Melbourne are doing all sorts of designing for GM even the upcomming Camaro.
I agree 100% on this, the VE was a job done very well by the guys in port melbourne

[Holden Man]

No offence Holden Man, because I do respect your opinion, but perhaps you could read my last post.

You must have been typing that when I was doing mine.

OK - I see your point.


Toyota make OK cars but as far as the biggest selling type car in the country Commodore /Falcon type their past offerings (V6 Camry's, Avalon and now Aurion) have not done it for them.

Most people seem to think that it is because they have not done a similar vehicle on a RWD platform - I tend to agree. But this is the worrying part about Toyota - they could engineer such a car - they are the most cashed up car operator in Australia (and probably world)- it would be easy for them to do, but they have clearly not wanted too BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CHANGE US OVER TO THEIR WAY OF THINKING - IE FWD! They want to make us drive large FWD's, and we Aussies, in the main, have resisted the temptation. Stuff them - just because FWD cars are heaps cheaper to manufacturer doesn't mean I wish to buy their product!!

Won't ever see any of my money go to this lot.:p

:bravo: :bow: well said (must be a proud Aussie like me ;) )

Exactly my point.

[Jac001]

Yes GM own Holden but Holden design cars for us and our tastes. And if Toyota did the same then the Aurion would be RWD and have a V8 option.

.

No they wouldn't.

The average Joe doesn't care if a car is FWD or RWD, and v8's are seen as being un-economical. Even v6 are starting to been seen as gas gusslers, and the different between a 4 cylinder Camry (auto) and a V6Commodore (auto) is only 1/100k!

[Holden Man]

No they wouldn't.

The average Joe doesn't care if a car is FWD or RWD, and v8's are seen as being un-economical. Even v6 are starting to been seen as gas gusslers, and the different between a 4 cylinder Camry (auto) and a V6Commodore (auto) is only 1/100k!

30% of private VE sales are fitted with V8's

[clixanup]

Holden are doing great things for GM. Melbourne is seen as the specialist design centre for RWD by GM.
Melbourne was seen as a specialist RWD design centre, but that didn't last long:

Lutz: GM "Pushed the Pause Button" on Rear-Wheel-Drive Vehicles (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120407)

[Jac001]

30% of private VE sales are fitted with V8's

Which means the majority of private buyers (70%) have chosen (for what every reason) to buy a V6.

All of us on this website love V8's, however we are a very select group, we are the minority , not the majority.

[Carby]

You must have been typing that when I was doing mine.

OK - I see your point.



:bravo: :bow: well said (must be a proud Aussie like me ;) )

Exactly my point.

Proud as can be - the Commodore (and Falcon), for the money are fantastic vehicles - large RWD, fine handling, great riding, spacious and safe. Given our small market GM and Ford have produced great cars virtually unique to Australia - that is something to crow about!

[Holden Man]

Melbourne was seen as a specialist RWD design centre, but that didn't last long:

Lutz: GM "Pushed the Pause Button" on Rear-Wheel-Drive Vehicles (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120407)

Yes I did hear of this and that is a worry !
(But GM have done backflips before)

[chrism697]

Melbourne was seen as a specialist RWD design centre, but that didn't last long:

Lutz: GM "Pushed the Pause Button" on Rear-Wheel-Drive Vehicles (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120407)
doesnt mean they arent anymore, and dont believe everything you read, Lutz also said that camaro is too far along to stop now

[Mikhael]

This is interesting, as Holden have purposely increased the price of VE for the fleet market, (that is descreased the discount given to fleet buyers).

The VE is still picking up fleets sales, just not as many as they used to.

As I said before, it would be good to know the break-up % of fleet and private sales now.

[clixanup]

Yes I did hear of this and that is a worry !
I think it's a disappointment too.

[burnout9]

[QUOTE=monaroCountry1;891076]The quality issues which Toyota tried to cover up were actually from Japanese plants manned by Japanese workers.

Make up your mind, now your saying that some toyota’s are of low quality whereas before Toyota was the pinnacle of engineering and quality?

You make it sound like the Japanese are some sort of superior race, the same idiotic ideology that the Nazis had. Toyota’s success had allot to do with the protectionist attitudes of its government and the fact that they don’t have the same health/union issues as America’s big 3.

id just like to say mate

YOU ARE A TOOL!

were did i say toyata are the pinnacle? i dont see it anywhere?

hey? get a life and get over toyota you numscull :teach:

[emg]

:yahoo: .....

[jamesd]

Melbourne was seen as a specialist RWD design centre, but that didn't last long:

Lutz: GM "Pushed the Pause Button" on Rear-Wheel-Drive Vehicles (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=120407)

Lutz is paid to be the worlds biggest drama queen

GM is exempt from that anyway.

[Bazza76d]

I wonder how many Holden fans get onto the toyota forum (if it exists) and bag out Totoya. As I said this is a Holden supporter/fan site, or am I missing something. I am not a redneck I am not one eyed but what I am is a Holden man, I don't care if a Totoya is the ants pants or whether a Ford or any other brand is, the point is, is this is a Holden forum, if you wanna talk up the other brands go to there sites and leave us one eyed red necks alone! Let us sledge you in peace:):) Oh and before you say I drive a Holden etc etc who gives a flying ....... I am just so fed up with reading posts by so called Holden drivers/fans who do nothing but put the brand down. As far as I am concerned that makes you anything but a Holden fan. Constructive criticism is great and I am sure encouraged but roasting and bagging is not wanted. Not by me anyways....

Baz

[monaroCountry1]

No they wouldn't.

The average Joe doesn't care if a car is FWD or RWD, and v8's are seen as being un-economical. Even v6 are starting to been seen as gas gusslers, and the different between a 4 cylinder Camry (auto) and a V6Commodore (auto) is only 1/100k!

There is a clear difference between what a person wants and what a person can afford.

In the past toyota has been regarded as the cheap as$ option. You want economical? get a cheap a$$ toyocrap 4cyl...........................


Originally Posted by clixanup View Post
Melbourne was seen as a specialist RWD design centre, but that didn't last long:

Lutz: GM "Pushed the Pause Button" on Rear-Wheel-Drive Vehicles

Hehehehhe according to denny, its business as usual. Some projects are too far ahead to stop, some project go and some crop up i.e. china's Buick and Korea, Russia, South America and ME.

The main issue with America is MPG..............in a couple of years Holden's will have diesel, effectively increasing MPG. Again desirable.

In the meantime Toyota will still cater to the bottom dwellers. Sports cars are garbage if not non existent, all cars sold by Toyota today are boring and below par in the "gotta have it factor".


Most people seem to think that it is because they have not done a similar vehicle on a RWD platform - I tend to agree. But this is the worrying part about Toyota - they could engineer such a car - they are the most cashed up car operator in Australia (and probably world)-

Well if you believe Toyota's profit earnings then it seems that they are no better than a two bit operator. 1.5% profit, they are in dire situations. If you think they are cashed up then obviously they are taking the ATO and all australian tax payers for a ride..........................EITHER WAY SHAME ON TOYOTA.

[mkaresh]

Toyota have a very different business model to Holden and Ford.

Essentially....
Toyota's goal is to maximise global profit
GM / Ford expect each region to reach / beat profit targets

So what does this mean??
Toyota will produce and sell at rates that ensure global profits are maximised. If there is a low tax rate in one country they produce in, the will take profit at the point of manufacture and if necessary sell at a loss in the country of destination. Conversely in a highly taxed country of manufacture, they are more likely to take a breakeven price or less for the cars but will sell them elsewhere (Exports) and minimise tax. It's why Toyota despite their dominance of the Aussie car market, made only a $10m profit in 06 (from memory)

GM / Ford require source countries to make a profit, so if a car is produced in Germany, Germany must make a profit on sale....in the country of destination the required sales price to avoid a loss on sale will be higher making their product uncompetitive (perhaps one of the reasons Holden now source small cars from Korea rather than the arguably superior product from Germany??)

Essentially its the difference between an International company and Global company...Clearly one of the these two business models is superior to the other.....

GM doesn't do things strategically like this - China perhaps being an exception.

In the U.S. at least they expect any new product to earn a profit from the moment it goes on sale. Every single model must make a profit, every year. So they won't launch a product at a loss, get good word of mouth going, and then raise prices as the product succeeds. This is what Lexus did.