Orion Fightback!!

[falcom]

With most Comparo's putting the new VE just ahead of the much older designed BF2.

The BF2 also is more frugal and is faster.

This begs the question has Holden have anything in store for the upcoming Orion other than the usual grill & trim treatment.

I think if Holden rest on there laurals to much they might be outgunned by the new Fords which from all reports is even more modern in appearance then the VE.

[Danv8]

Christ knows!
All I have read is speculation about the Orion really.

I'd probably have a Calais V V8 before the Orion is released really.

[jasper361]

Much like the VE, I think ford fans are counting on big things from the Orion, let wait and see!

[Holden Man]

I'm betting a potent Deisel engine will be there.

185kw / 550nm torque / 8L/100km :yahoo:

What will Ford have as a surprise as we have already seen the engine/gearbox etc. ?

[HSVJPL]

I have seen the Orion in the flesh and I was somewhat disappointed, not because it necessarily a bad looking car but because I instantly picked the same lines as the BA. Not enough chnage for me.

The VE and outgoing VZ are worlds apart, whereas from BA and Orion still share much of the floor plan, the complete IRS is still the same with attribute tuning only, brakes carry over, etc, etc.

However the interior is an improvement.

[Mikey]

I have seen the Orion in the flesh and I was somewhat disappointed, not because it necessarily a bad looking car but because I instantly picked the same lines as the BA. Not enough chnage for me.

The VE and outgoing VZ are worlds apart, whereas from BA and Orion still share much of the floor plan, the complete IRS is still the same with attribute tuning only, brakes carry over, etc, etc.

However the interior is an improvement.

WTF say again, I know there are mules out there and they have built test pilots etc, but out side of the Blue Ovals "Circle of trust", there would not be too many people that would have seen this thing or know anything about the mechanicals or interior specs etc.

Do you know more? Can you describe the appearance in more detail? Dose it resemble a VE in proportions high hip line flared wheel arches etc? How long ago did you see it?

[Ghia351]

WTF say again, I know there are mules out there and they have built test pilots etc, but out side of the Blue Ovals "Circle of trust", there would not be too many people that would have seen this thing or know anything about the mechanicals or interior specs etc.

Do you know more? Can you describe the appearance in more detail? Dose it resemble a VE in proportions high hip line flared wheel arches etc? How long ago did you see it?

Unless you work within Campbellfield I'm surprised as well considering all mules are covered before they leave the plant buildings (Remember the early VE's spy shots which gave the impression they were hatchbacks) . Also fake plastic over-panels are being used to alter the external body work's profile.

[geary]

According to an article I read, the makers of Orion's 4-speed base-model Auto has replaced it with an equal-displacement 6-cog, so that will likely mean 6 speed as standard.

Watch out VE, I hate to say.

[Holden Man]

According to an article I read, the makers of Orion's 4-speed base-model Auto has replaced it with an equal-displacement 6-cog, so that will likely mean 6 speed as standard.

Watch out VE, I hate to say.

I'd say VE's 4spd will go once Orion comes out and the 5sp will be standard.(still no match for the ZF though :( )

[Danv8]

According to an article I read, the makers of Orion's 4-speed base-model Auto has replaced it with an equal-displacement 6-cog, so that will likely mean 6 speed as standard.

Watch out VE, I hate to say.

I would wonder if the torque of the engine is that narrow to actually need 6 speeds in an auto? .

Especially when an engine pumps out a decent torque figure already?.

But then again its marketing really in the end and I guess adding more ratio's to keep up with the competition.
Mercedes has done it now lexus is done it and now BMW is going for the 8 speed auto's.

But splitting the ratio's between a slightly lower than normal first and a regular
overdrive top so you end up with the thing making twice as many changes making it hunt?

With that I guess car manufacturers knows what they are doing..

Good luck to em.

[nang3]

I have seen the Orion in the flesh and I was somewhat disappointed, not because it necessarily a bad looking car but because I instantly picked the same lines as the BA. Not enough chnage for me.

The VE and outgoing VZ are worlds apart, whereas from BA and Orion still share much of the floor plan, the complete IRS is still the same with attribute tuning only, brakes carry over, etc, etc.

However the interior is an improvement.

im calling BS on this one.. anti ford comment with pro-holden comments thrown in by someone who judging by his claims, must work for ford and has seen the latest model etc??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

photos would be good proof

[Road Warrior]

now BMW is going for the 8 speed auto's.


That is ridiculous. Like a goddamn truck.

[Danv8]

That is ridiculous. Like a goddamn truck.

Its getting that way.
I can understand why trucks need so many gear ratio's but for a car its just getting beyond the joke.

8 speed auto in a car is really just for pure bragging rights or if the engine has a really really narrow torque band.

[planetdavo]

With most Comparo's putting the new VE just ahead of the much older designed BF2.

The BF2 also is more frugal and is faster.

This begs the question has Holden have anything in store for the upcoming Orion other than the usual grill & trim treatment.

I think if Holden rest on there laurals to much they might be outgunned by the new Fords which from all reports is even more modern in appearance then the VE.
Most reviews I've read say the BF has a better engine and a better auto, but otherwise the VE is a vast improvement in body strength, handling and interior appearance, and once you get to SS/HSV, a total domination, so yeah whatever......
There's been another thread getting around for a while on orion, so much of this thread would probably be better off linked to the other one....
http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=68910&highlight=orion

[Caprice270]

Refining the BA/BF shape is not a bad way to go, given how badly they botched up their previous attempt at an all new model - the infamous AU. I'd love to see a refined BF GT rather than a GT that looks like a Mondeo. I think Ford's exteriors just need a big freshen up rather than an overhaul, while the interiors deperately need an upgrade now that VE has hit the streets.

[vecommo]

I'm predicting by the time orion comes out, VE will have the direct injection alloytecs and diesel engines ready, together with 5/6 speed autos standard across the range.

One thing to remember that in the financial position ford is in at the moment, they have bugger all development $$$$ to play with, therefore I wouldn't be expecting anything spectacular from orion.

[Road Warrior]

One thing to remember that in the financial position ford is in at the moment, they have bugger all development $$$$ to play with, therefore I wouldn't be expecting anything spectacular from orion.

I would say that funding for Orion was locked in a few years ago and already spent by now, given that there are test mules out and about. The $$$ and engineering R&D just to get to the point of having full-build mules running around would be huge.

Sure, the current dire straits FoMoCo is in GLOBALLY are bad for future projects (like in the 5+ year timeframe) but I don't think its bad enough to shitcan a car that is due out in less than 12 months.

[CAPTIVALX]

I would say that funding for Orion was locked in a few years ago and already spent by now, given that there are test mules out and about. The $$$ and engineering R&D just to get to the point of having full-build mules running around would be huge.

Sure, the current dire straits FoMoCo is in GLOBALLY are bad for future projects (like in the 5+ year timeframe) but I don't think its bad enough to shitcan a car that is due out in less than 12 months.


I agree to a point on developement dollars but how much std stuff will be left out and options skimped on to save a few dollars for the future. Much like holden charging for a spare tyre. Ford will dish up an 80% magnificant car then let it all down by the final 20% in my prediction.

[Road Warrior]

I agree to a point on developement dollars but how much std stuff will be left out and options skimped on to save a few dollars for the future. Much like holden charging for a spare tyre. Ford will dish up an 80% magnificant car then let it all down by the final 20% in my prediction.

I agree totally. Stuff like basecoat only finish in the engine bay, no power windows in the back and no sheetmetal changes to the car in 5 years (save for the bonnet of the BFII) are indicators of tightarsedness. And when it comes to being tightarses, FoMoCo are experts. But then again, there could be a reason for it, as I just read on a Ford related forum that shall remain unnamed:


"Never forget the fact that FoA has a very very heavy hand placed upon them, wanting the most out of them from very little support and funding."

Something tells me that this will be the last Aussie Falcon we'll ever see.

[vecommo]

I would say that funding for Orion was locked in a few years ago and already spent by now, given that there are test mules out and about. The $$$ and engineering R&D just to get to the point of having full-build mules running around would be huge.

Sure, the current dire straits FoMoCo is in GLOBALLY are bad for future projects (like in the 5+ year timeframe) but I don't think its bad enough to shitcan a car that is due out in less than 12 months.

If you look at it that way, around the time the Orion project commenced the AU was a flop and Ford was posting significant losses year after year. Ford's financial gloom didn't just happen overnight, it's something that's been compounding for years.
In contrast, Holden was making massive profits, especially during the VT era, which is what has enabled them to invest so heavily in the VE.

[falconlover]

Hey Geary how are those orion pictures goin for drive. When are you posting them! I'm getting excited sorry!:wave:

[CharlieDontSurf]

i think that holden will have the french made 5 speed standard now they have the G8 contact. Economies of scale. I think HFV6 said it was too expensive to have on the omega way back in the early days. Dont rule out direct inection before diesel as there will be significant fuel economy gains. I cant see holden using locally made gearboxes as in this article http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2535811.aspx
GM have an investment in thm and they probably wont buy elsewhere

[geary]

Hey Geary how are those orion pictures goin for drive. When are you posting them! I'm getting excited sorry!:wave:

Haha working on the last one as we speak - rear view - and its a toughie.

[Road Warrior]

If you look at it that way, around the time the Orion project commenced the AU was a flop and Ford was posting significant losses year after year. Ford's financial gloom didn't just happen overnight, it's something that's been compounding for years.
In contrast, Holden was making massive profits, especially during the VT era, which is what has enabled them to invest so heavily in the VE.

Dont forget the key thing to keep in mind when comparing the fortunes of Holden and Ford over say, the past 7-8 years, is the level of involvement (dare I say interference) from Detroit and the levels of funding that had been given for various projects.

When you look at the contrasting ways in which Holden and Ford have been treated by their American masters, it makes you wonder how Ford AU have survived as long as they have.

[V-Car]

In contrast, Holden was making massive profits, especially during the VT era

Funded partly by its lack of spending during the same era up until the last VZ, or should i say the VT Series 8. :lol:
They certainly didnt spend alot on sheetmetal changes from 97 till 02, so Ford arent alone as tightar$es.
IMO Ford have done pretty well with what they have probably had to work with regarding profits and funding compared to Holden.
I wonder how different things would have been if Holden hadnt been handed the LHD Middle East RWD export market following the demise of the US Caprice, or how much better the Fairlane/LTD might have been if it had been given the same markets sales and profits instead of the US sourced Crown Victoria.
Would things still be the same if Bob Lutz had not been running the Holden fan club?

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

I'm not biased towards any brand by any means. I really love the look of the falcons and if the V8's were quicker than the holden V8's then I would have bought one.
But in anycase, US Ford have seriously got their heads stuck up their ass like no tomorrow! If the G8 becomes a big success in the US then this may make US Ford take notice of what Australia can provide engineering wise! I've seen a few US reviews of the Australian Falcon and they absolutely love them (very few reviews mind you!). I guess US Ford is just looking after its own interests by making sure they're domestic market doesn't get scraped and US citizens don't lose their jobs, no matter how outdated their Crown's are! But if they had any brains about them the perfect compromise is to allow Australia to do the engineering side and then they can build there own for the US market. This would give OZ Ford some decent budgets to make a great car, increase competition giving us better products, and would keep the yank plants open building there own falcons or whatever they want with an Australian designed platform.
Large companies are never forward thinkers all they seem to care about is keeping sare holders happy and the easiest way to make a profit is to cut spending. Never mind actually utilising what they have and trying to make the best product they can produce! Low cost, high sell seems to be the formula in western markets! It seems GM are starting to move towards the trends of using what they have to their advantage, it will be a hard slog at the start but it's an investment that will follow. Australia seems to make the best family sedans/rwd platform cars, hey lets use them to build sedans/rwd cars! Korea make good cheap relaible econo cars, hey lets use them to build cheap relaible econo boxes! This is why GM is going to bury Ford and this will filter off into further international markets.
Who would honestly buy a Crown in Australia?? I think you would be hard pressed to even find the most dedicated blue oval fan in Australia to buy one. Why was the Mondeo a flop? Because the Falcon is/was a much better product.

[The_Senator]

That is ridiculous. Like a goddamn truck.

Don't laugh... I was talking to a Mercedes Tech the other day and he tells me that they are working on a 9 speed Auto - to try and trump BMW's 8 speed..

Changes will be unperceivable...

Where will it all end?

[Danv8]

Don't laugh... I was talking to a Mercedes Tech the other day and he tells me that they are working on a 9 speed Auto - to try and trump BMW's 8 speed..

Changes will be unperceivable...

Where will it all end?

Why would a car need 9 gears is beyond me, and I often suspect
that this shite is more to do with wank value between manufacturers than
actual benefits to buyers.

The 8/9 spd auto might be useful with a turbo diesel which doesn't rev as
high but it does seem pointless behind a petrol engine.

Imho.

[chevypower]

I would like to see a nice DSG transmission or even CVT transmissions in our local cars (I am not sure which of the two are potentially better)

[Danv8]

I would like to see a nice DSG transmission or even CVT transmissions in our local cars (I am not sure which of the two are potentially better)

I've driven a mates Nissan Murano and that thing has CVT and I found it awful.
It would have to be the slowest thing that I have recently driven. And when I did give it some curry it piled on the revs and made a lot of noise but the performance was crap compared to a normal automatic transmission equipped car.

DSG would be nice and better way to go.