Rear wheel drive can be dangerous from autospeed

[Danv8]

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_108243/article.html

And the readers response.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_108244/article.html

I think some of them seriously need some decent driving training lessons.

I would rather hand in my licence of I had to replace my RWD cars with a FWD thing! ;)

[Martin_D]

This is the same bloke that wrote up R32 GTR Skylines as being lethal because he stacked his own into a tree driving dumb-style. Nuff said :)
Having read it though we are seriously thinking of throwing away the Clubby and getting one of those vicious power sliding EF 6 cylinders for Drift Australia next year :lol: :lol: :lol: :diddy:

[Vulture]

There are actually plenty of good points raised in the article. I do prefer RWD as it is more 'fun' but I have always thought that FWD cars are safer for the inexperienced as they tend to understeer rather than get all shockingly out of shape all over the road; fishtailing out of control etc. Sure you can get a FWD to do this but it usually requires deliberate provocation. For most people I have no doubt that a FWD car is the safer alternative particularly when traction control is off or in the wet. Without a doubt. Factory FWDs are usually tuned to gently progress into understeer and even lifting off mid corner, they usually tend to stay in understeer (unlike the really hot hatches, which lift off oversteer for turn in) or gently regain front end traction. Sorry guys, but progressive understeer is safer than oversteer for the novice. Now I will standby for the flogging I am about to receive :eyes:

[Danv8]

There are actually plenty of good points raised in the article. I do prefer RWD as it is more 'fun' but I have always thought that FWD cars are safer for the inexperienced as they tend to understeer rather than get all shockingly out of shape all over the road; fishtailing out of control etc. Sure you can get a FWD to do this but it usually requires deliberate provocation. For most people I have no doubt that a FWD car is the safer alternative particularly when traction control is off or in the wet. Without a doubt. Now I will standby for the flogging I am about to receive :eyes:

For now on your being called Jesus because your going to go the same way he did. ;-)

Seriously I think more drivers today should experience both FWD and RWD and have proper training. I never want to hear the words from someone who is driving I've never driven a RWD V8 before. I would be scared shiteless as a passenger. :-)


This is the same bloke that wrote up R32 GTR Skylines as being lethal because he stacked his own into a tree driving dumb-style. Nuff said :)
Having read it though we are seriously thinking of throwing away the Clubby and getting one of those vicious power sliding EF 6 cylinders for Drift Australia next year :lol: :lol: :lol: :diddy:

What a top idea whilst that I am replacing my VY2 with an alfa 33. ;)

[DIEFASTER*WH]

:weirdo:Maybe he should buy a WRX & then have the best of both (rwd/fwd) haha. Should people like this be driving? I mean I go through the hills in a 1800kg WH & I can't remember the car drifting around corners (wet or dry) @ all unless my foot was on the power pedal. Here's some advice for him...Buy a ****ing donkey, it'll be safer & they tow heaps of shit without falling off mountain roads. I dont think you can get a donkey to oversteer though so....:stick:

[VX-300]

Time for this wanker to trade in his scary EF and get some form of 4x4 Landbarge ( 0-100 in 12minutes). He can then safely join the million or so other fossils clogging up every right hand lane in Australia.

[Martin_D]

There are actually plenty of good points raised in the article....

There probably are....just I havent seen them :rofl:

[born2xlr8]

The lesson of a few kilometres ago was very clear – across a set of traffic lights, the Falcon had spun a rear wheel with the greatest of ease in first and second gears.

obviously out for some fun with the trailer on. plus it was only a ef,, he shoulda driven straight down the side of the mountain anyway,, wouldn't have been able to tell,,

[lowriding]

EF Falcons are shocking cars with agricultural rear ends.The arse end sits about 9 feet in the air with a rigid live axle,and lots of low rpm torque with a twitchy and inaccurate throttle pedal.this is true particulary in series 1 form ,Ford revised the rear suspension in EF2 . i would never put my missus in one they are terrible ,awful cars for inexperienced drivers in wet conditions.For this to be any surprise i think his "motoring journo" credentials should be questioned , saying RWD is dangerous because of that EF is like saying AWD is crap because he drove a ATV bike once.

[Road Warrior]

Driving around in a 12 year old car with a live axle in the wet, with tyres with worn tread (he admitted this in his article) instantly makes all RWD cars that have come since, with all of the refinements and evolutionary changes that have occurred with rear ends in that time, bad cars according to him.

[Martin_D]

Point is as Julian clearly points out (and he is no dummy) these cars are indeed dangerous with him behind the wheel. Having seen some of the scenery he has piled out of control cars into I do not find this hard believe. A great example of mandatory driver training and observed testing before handing out licences! :)

[wally01]

I have owned and driven plenty of fwd cars ,they are lots of fun on dirt roads with the hand brake that is to get them to slide .
I have done 2 ks of fish tales with one on dirt along time ago once you get the back out and get it to slide it's pretty easy from there ,but i would rather a rear drive .
It's a personal thing i guess ,i would rather control a rear drive car in a slide than a fron t wheel drive ,all the weight over the front can get you into trouble if you don't watch it .
I guess a rear drive with LSD can be daunting to someone if they have not had any experience with one before aswell .
Just my 2 cents worth .

[Vulture]

Sorry guys, but progressive understeer is safer than oversteer for the novice.

Could all the above professional racing drivers and instructors kindly give a technical explanation of why this is not true? Why do you think most modern cars (including many RWDs) are set up this way? For fun? :lol: No, it's for legal/safety reasons...:)

Just because it doesn't fit into your hairy-chested weltanschauung doesn't make it wrong. :whip:

[chevypower]

Well I have had the scary situation from both understeer in a FWD and oversteer in an EF, and I hate both! There are good FWD cars out there and there are also good RWD cars out there. I think EFs are dangerously crap, just like some FWD cars. I wouldn't bag out either RWD or FWD cars in general. Gosh it's funny when new drivers get behind the wheel of an EF or VS bottom of the range with a single spinner, stock tyres, and try to do a fishtail thinking their slide is controlled and skillful, but you see them correcting it 2 or 3 times, and the lack of smoothness tells ya that it was not controlled. (They're the idiots who go on like morons about RWD is so much better than FWD) The sad thing is they are making these errors in the wrong places, at the wrong times.

[Martin_D]

Any good chassis needs to be setup for STEADY STATE (not accelerating in either direction) neutral balance with possibly a hint of understeer. This includes even constantly sideways drift cars. Induced chassis imbalance by stading on the throttle too hard in a rwd (power-on oversteer) or jumping off the gas mid corner in a front wheel drive (lift-off oversteer) will indeed skew the vehicle sideways should the conditions be correct...however this is not a handling problem...this instead is a driver error.

[pagey]

"After that I treated my MR2 with respect in the wet, let me tell you! It's not even that powerful, 130 or so kW, but I've had wheelspin in first, second and third gear very easily."

Yep.. there is a credible comment!

[Road Warrior]

Point is as Julian clearly points out (and he is no dummy) these cars are indeed dangerous with him behind the wheel.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! :lol:

[Gilly74]

"rant on.."

Well, i read most of the threads here before I read the article....

I must say I'm not surprised by the attitude on this forum - at best its machoistic.

I pretty much agree with everything in the article and the sentiments of the author. To para-phrase him - if your in the market for a safe car buy 4wd or fwd or at the very least make sure you have traction control and stability control in you rwd purchase. Commonsense really - nothing new or controversial. It seems however that most have chosen to focus on the one liner- "rwd can be dangerous" and interpret all sorts of macho derived diatribe.

In the end the author is just trying to point out that most popular type of car in Australia (five to ten year old six cyclinder rwd commodore or falcon with skinny and worn tyres, and sloppy worn suspension) is also the most dangerous in inexperienced hands - particularly in less than ideal conditions.

No one is arguing that you can't do stupid things in fwd, 4wd or rwd, but all other things being equal rwd is easily the most unforgiving in inexperienced hands. Understeer is far easier to recover from than oversteer - anyone that has done even the most basic defensive driver course or had any track time should be able to attest to this - you simply get off the gas and traction will usually return without doing anything else the car will still be pointing in generally the right direction. In a basic (not high speed) oversteer situation, most instructors have the same recovery - off the gas and gently on the brakes - dont be a hero and try and counter steer or throttle steer the car - in general terms the car will change direction but will stop and hopefully the worst you suffer is a hit to your pride. Problem is most people (blokes mostly) think their all Micheal Schummacher types and will try and control the car - sometimes getting away with it (and building on their false sense of skill) and other times get it wrong and making it worse for themselves and sometimes others.

Having said all that and before you start calling me a fwd lover or rwd hater - I still chose to drive rwd, why... because it's more of a drivers car and i prefer the dynamics of rwd car even though it is more involved and because I'm not just after a boring "safe" car. In the end I chose a muscle car in a business suit discuise, because i want the comprimise of a safe daily driver and an involving muscle car when the occasion warrants the change. Good drivers are those that know when an occasion warrants different driving behaviour.

"rant off"

[Martin_D]

Gilly, this is why some of you guys should put your names down for our upcoming drift training schools :)

At the end of one days training you will find that power oversteer is no longer something to be instantly reacted against, but rather an experience to be savoured and enjoyed under controlled conditions with a level of control that most drivers - i.e. the original author of the article - would not enjoy on a dry road in a Hyundai Getz :teach:
Point is next time it happens, you will greet the rear end sliding like an old mate, and either have him along for a play, or simply send him home :cool:

P.S. Heres my driving tip for the day. If you dont attempt a mild counter steer input during a 'power-over' you will without fail swap ends or get well on the way.... :eek:

[Vulture]

Aaah, Gilly74, a man of wisdom. You have put the message across much better than me :bow: Spot on and thankyou.

Tuna, I think you'll find the article, myself, Gilly and any other sensible persons are not referring to drift school or any other such race-like controlled environment. We are referring to the average driver on the street trying not to land themselves in hospital. I stand by the statement that FWD is the most foolproof drive method for the masses of poorly trained drivers. Nothing more, nothing less.

[VX-300]

Was great to see Glenn Ridge yesterday on "The Car Show" doing his bit to keep us all safe. For those who did not see it, he compared an old Henry (might have been an EF) to a bunch of new 4x4's in offroading capability.
He tried to tear the diff out over some serious rough ground, it survived, then did pretty good on a hillclimb, next was a creek crossing.
He was forced to abandon ship midstream after losing traction & left the taxi parked in a creekbed up to the windscreen in muddy water.

:rofl::rofl:

[Martin_D]

I can see a few memberships to the 'Pedestrian Council' coming up from this thread :rofl:
(might be able to give you a discount as they love me there....might have been to do with writing something about Harold Scruby getting run over by an electric car......) :lol:

[Gareth@Willall]

I have indeed driven the lethal oversteering deathtrap Skyline that bought Edgar to his knees a few years back when he picked the only tree on the road and speared into it being a wanker trying to get it sideways for magazine pictures to show how dangerous it was. The thing bit him for being an idiot with it. Driven hard the car doesnt oversteer at all, which is why Edgar went in so hot to try and get it out of shape for the camera and then ploughed it into a tree. He got what he deserved pretty much.

Now he drives souped up EF Falcons that turn the tyres in every forward gear breathing on the throttle :rofl:

[Martin_D]

No shit Gareth!
I took that car out around six months ago to do a 'remake' of the original 'GTR DEATHTRAP' article for Zoom. The concept was to get the GTR all crossed up at decent speed to show it all out of shape & nasty essentially trying to kill me the driver...so away we went :)

1) First up inciting power on oversteer from the GTR got it about a foot sideways and the four wheel drive picked it straight.

2) Then we tried the fabled clutch kick technique and once more you could get the bum out a couple of feet and straight it went again....so how to get this thing sideways?

3) The answer is in going in so hot, so damn fast that there is no way the all wheel drive system of the car can save you. The rears need to be slipping and the bum sliding, with a corresponding loss of traction in the nose making the car wash sideways across the track surface. Any dickhead that tried this kind of thing on the road shouldnt have a licence and will die eventually no matter what they drive.

Or.....

It could have been because he replaced the original Potenzas on the car with $50 specials.... :idea:

[CalaisOwner]

When you drive in ice and snow, you won't want to be in a RWD!

[muzza]

I reckon Tuna's hit the nail on the head - tyres seem to make the biggest difference, no matter what car you are driving.

Having compared worn 2 yo Potenzas to 8yo legal Dunlop Monzas (RWC time) on the same VN V8 wagon I have no doubts about what was safer in the wet.
Plough understeer with the Monzas at half the cornering speed of the Potenzas quickly put me in granny mode. A whiff of throttle for tail out action - lovely on a back-road with nothing to hit- frightening anywhere else.

I'm sure a FWD car with old hard "skating" tyres on would become a lethal lead tipped arrow in the wet too.

[vxssgurl]

Point is as Julian clearly points out (and he is no dummy) these cars are indeed dangerous with him behind the wheel. Having seen some of the scenery he has piled out of control cars into I do not find this hard believe. A great example of mandatory driver training and observed testing before handing out licences! :)

Jayzus... I had to read that first sentence about 5 times before I realised you said "clearly" and not CLAREY... Julian Clarey is probably not relevant to this thread... but still, the way this other Julian drives, it looks like he is getting familiar with reaming tactics of an entirely different variety...

My first "grown-up" car was a FWD... the first time I drove it home from the office, I attacked a right hand corner with the same level of gusto that I applied to the XE I had graduated out of... and almost wrapped myself around the lamp pole on said corner! After that, I spent a LOT of time driving this car, learning how different it behaved on the road compared to RWD. It didn't take too long to actually LOVE driving that car... especially over really windy twisty roads, and feeling the level of interraction with the road through the steering wheel - you just CAN'T read the road like that through a RWD wheel. Pull it back to third, power down, slight twitch of the wheel, foot off pedal 1/3rds the way through, coast round, power down at 2/3rds out... ah, rallying for the poor.

When I traded her in for Red... well, let's just say I was "tentative" for MONTHS because I couldn't feel the road... now, I love Red, don't get me wrong, but RWD just doesn't give the same road feel as FWD... mind you, FWD doesn't give the same level of burning rubber as RWD... :nyuk:

[bpm]

No shit Gareth!
I took that car out around six months ago to do a 'remake' of the original 'GTR DEATHTRAP' article for Zoom. The concept was to get the GTR all crossed up at decent speed to show it all out of shape & nasty essentially trying to kill me the driver...so away we went :)

1) First up inciting power on oversteer from the GTR got it about a foot sideways and the four wheel drive picked it straight.

2) Then we tried the fabled clutch kick technique and once more you could get the bum out a couple of feet and straight it went again....so how to get this thing sideways?

3) The answer is in going in so hot, so damn fast that there is no way the all wheel drive system of the car can save you. The rears need to be slipping and the bum sliding, with a corresponding loss of traction in the nose making the car wash sideways across the track surface. Any dickhead that tried this kind of thing on the road shouldnt have a licence and will die eventually no matter what they drive.

Or.....

It could have been because he replaced the original Potenzas on the car with $50 specials.... :idea:

didnt Edgar fcuk with the 4wd system in this car to tune in and out the amount of front wheel assistance? or was that a different car?

[whitels1ss]

I too can see his points, he is correct, I can get my V8 Commodore with its Limited Slip Diff sideways much easier than a front wheel drive Corolla.
Just part of the fun!

[vyssbeast]

or perhaps it’s the sheer torque and throttle response of the 5-speed manual Falc

I drive an EF ... (i think thats what it is, a 1995 model) and let me tell you, sheer torque and throttle my ass!! I can put the boot in around a corner and barely hear the tyres squeel.

He was talking bout this falcon on a wet road like it was a bloody 400rwkw animal! even with BALD tyres i reckon u can still drive it with no loss of traction, if the tyres are anywhere near decent, NO problem

[kart_racer]

I have seen first hand how a FWD can be very dangerous in the wet.
I have crashed one...Going too fast for the conditions (wet, very greasy road) and understeered, corrected, but spun into a wall. My fault, got into the car straight from bed and didn't concentrate.
Went camping last year and went to get some supplies with the group, with red p plater girl driving her Toyota Echo. It rained on the way back, up a windy mountain. She came too fast into the tight corners, turned too hard, powered too hard, the car understeered, she simply powered harder, and overcorrected full lock! When the car regained grip, the car shot into the other lane in the way of an oncoming bus. This happened on a few more corners on the way. She isn't a great driver, and obviously FWD is hard to predict in the wet.
Also a mate of mine (bit more experienced) drove another friend's Corolla last year down another mountain in the wet, and while the passengers could tell the front wheels were spinning, he could not.
I think FWD is probably harder to get out of shape, but a lot harder to predict in slippery conditions. Simple physics, the front tyres are doing all the work, driving and steering while the rears tag along doing bugger all. :soap:

[Gilly74]

Vulture Aaah, Gilly74, a man of wisdom. You have put the message across much better than me Spot on and thankyou.

Tuna, I think you'll find the article, myself, Gilly and any other sensible persons are not referring to drift school or any other such race-like controlled environment. We are referring to the average driver on the street trying not to land themselves in hospital. I stand by the statement that FWD is the most foolproof drive method for the masses of poorly trained drivers. Nothing more, nothing less.

Vulture, thank goodness there are few olds heads here - people easily forget that driver education starts with attitude not car control. These forum can be scary incite into the think of others but are also great for there ability to deliver a little bit of 'collective wisdom' - in aviation circles every pilot at the beginning of their training learns about "Airmanship" which is a broad concept that defines the link between the quality of your decisions and how it relates to keeping your aircraft and yourself in one piece. We also have a saying that pretty every pilot has had burnt into their hard drives: "there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

It wouldn't hurt for the RTA to adopt a similiar approach towards its driver education and public campaigns, and try and encourage virtuous behaviour rather than scare tactic that work for a little while until people become desensitized.

[Martin_D]

We also have a saying that pretty every pilot has had burnt into their hard drives: "there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

I will remember that next time I strap in behind the controls of an EF Falcon 6 at Top Gun Academy. Surely you are 'Jester'?

[Lloyd1986]

"I am probably well above the bottom level of driving ability. At minimum, I am highly experienced"

Yet he was freaking out about driving an EF in the wet? I drive my car round the ocean road in the wet with 375nm of torque, with traction off and I dont have a problem. Man does this guy take some co*k!

[mickeyVX350]

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[mmciau]

Geez, 1963 1964 with the introduction of the 1275cc Mini Cooper S.

Now those little bricks sorted out we RWD smartie pants when we first started pushing the limits of FWD.

You were a candidate for a kissing contest with a good old Adelaide Stobie Pole if you didn't learn to handbrake turn in the Coopers.

Close friend of mine did Adelaide GPO to Mildura in 2 hours 45 minutes in about 1966 in the S. Ran out of fuel in Langtree Avenue (11 gallons in 250 miles!)

It had a vane type blower on it too (based on the Eldred Norman design)

Mike

[seldo]

Tuna, I think you'll find the article, myself, Gilly and any other sensible persons are not referring to drift school or any other such race-like controlled environment. We are referring to the average driver on the street trying not to land themselves in hospital. I stand by the statement that FWD is the most foolproof drive method for the masses of poorly trained drivers. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sadly, I have to agree with you Simon - FWD is far and away best for the masses of poorly-trained (or generally totally un-trained) people out there clogging our roads and grouped under the broad term "drivers".
Most people who sit behind the wheel of a car in motion like to call them selves drivers, (and I've never heard anyone admit to being anything other than a "good driver"), but unfortunately, most of them are little more than passengers who apply a bit of input to the car's motion. The average driver has absolutely no idea how close they often come to the car's limits of adhesion, and most only find out they've reached or passed it when they suddenly find themselves adorning the scenery or the front of another car.
And it is these millions of people (and they form the majority by far) that are far safer in a front wheel drive car.
As for Julian Edgar....anyone who tries to turn a Toyota Prius into a performance car ( he truly did) deserves all our sympathy.

[Souljah]

Julian Edgar sounds like a bit of a :limpy:

[iamhappy46]

Christmas special tyres with minimal tread on a 4L 6cyl EF Falcon is just asking for trouble. What if those same tyres were fitted to a crappy little FWD, such as a Ford Festiva? Think the front end is going to end up encountering push understeer on a wet road... argh, YES!

Really, some people should sit back and consider that they should only be driving a car that they have the experience and capabilites of driving. Julian Edgar lacks those skills and should consider the purchase of a Daewoo Cielo but how many Cielo's are considered a well constructed FWD handling chassis... I would rather drive an EF Falcon than a Cielo

Some people just fail the necessary skills to control a car and thankfully, the Darwin awards are for these such people. If only they could not be on a public road when their evolution and abilites have reached its peak.

I'll take any car given to me and understand how the car drives before trying to find its limits, which usually involves me not burying my dogs bum kicker into the loud pedal before finding the grip levels of the car/tyres and how it handles, especially on a wet road.

[OPPYLOCK]

Sadly, I have to agree with you Simon - FWD is far and away best for the masses of poorly-trained (or generally totally un-trained) people out there clogging our roads and grouped under the broad term "drivers".
Most people who sit behind the wheel of a car in motion like to call them selves drivers, (and I've never heard anyone admit to being anything other than a "good driver"), but unfortunately, most of them are little more than passengers who apply a bit of input to the car's motion. The average driver has absolutely no idea how close they often come to the car's limits of adhesion, and most only find out they've reached or passed it when they suddenly find themselves adorning the scenery or the front of another car.
And it is these millions of people (and they form the majority by far) that are far safer in a front wheel drive car.
As for Julian Edgar....anyone who tries to turn a Toyota Prius into a performance car ( he truly did) deserves all our sympathy.

Ha ha, have to agree but I refer to these people as motorists. I consider drivers people that actually show some interest in their vehicle and the act of operating said vehicle.
Before we all start the old FWD vs RWD thing, go out and ask people what they drive, you will be disgusted by how many people with licences don't know which end drives their car. This is a much bigger issue.

[HyperYellow]

I drive an EF 5-speed with LSD and a few mods. Yes, it is very easy to get wheelspin in the wet. No, that does not make the car dangerous. IMO, it is a very easy car to drive safely.

That journo is a bit of a :weirdo:
He might just have a point though that FWD's are safer for people who CAN'T DRIVE. Perhaps he should trade his car in for something that he can handle.



Another thing to think about. Perhaps he had the trailer loaded wrong, and it was lifting the rear end?

[V8R]

dunno what this numbnuts problem is, my stock (save pedder shocks), auto EF is just fine in the wet, and at speed (s not advised by the OMFG EVERY KAY OVER IS KILLAH!!1).. spins up a little from standstill in the wet, but geez youve really got to provoke it..
as for cornering wet or dry, its just fine.. Now i READ that the EF has some woeful suspension setup, but honestly, its something 98% of the owners would EVER experiance.

It drives at least as well as my old VL (with blah blah brand susp. and crap) did over my favourite piece of driving road..

Bah humbug i say

[JimmyXR6T04]

i used to find that even my old VL used to break out sideways when going up a slight hill when it kicked down a gear in the wet, often i didn't want it too.. it's this sort of thing that can get the unaware into big trouble..

[VX2VESS]

it easy to steer fwd cars with the wheels spinning, not.

both types require a different style of driving.

rwd feels better on a race track..
better ask F1 why they don't have FWD, is so much better..

[Evman]

Vulture, thank goodness there are few olds heads here - people easily forget that driver education starts with attitude not car control.

You're right, driver education does start there, but it shouldn't end there either, no matter how conservative you oldies might drive. I'm 21 and I've long held the belief that there needs to be more trianing than just driving on our roads. Street Tuna is bang on, everyone should go to a driving school of sorts (drift, 'defensive', whatever) and learn the limits of both car and driver. I also think that there should be bi-annual driver reviews for people over 50. They might not be big in the crash stats, but when you're driving at 20km/h you've got plenty of time to dodge a light pole. Hush hush about the fact that oldies driving at 20km/h is a hazard for all the other motorists. Aviation has bi-annuals no matter what your age.


In aviation circles every pilot at the beginning of their training learns about "Airmanship" which is a broad concept that defines the link between the quality of your decisions and how it relates to keeping your aircraft and yourself in one piece. We also have a saying that pretty every pilot has had burnt into their hard drives: "there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.

I'm guessing you're a pilot. Me too. I'm also an aircraft engineer, so I have to fix all your mistakes. Comparing Australian driver training to the training a pilot receives is a joke. As soon as the trainee pilot gets the knack of flying, what's next? Stall recovery. For those that don't know, when a plane stalls, it has nothing to do with the engine, it means there's no more lift and the plane drops from the sky. This could be likened to a cars traction, only we never get taught how to recover from lost traction do we. So then, a responsible driver should, one way or another, go and learn how to handle a loss of traction situaion. I can hear oldies whinging, "if you were a responsible driver you'd never lose traction anyway". Just like a responsible pilot should never get into a stall situation, right? Then why teach stall recovery? Because there's always a chance of it happening anyway. By the way, there are a lot of old, bold pilots around. I know, they always tell me their life story. They just know their limits, and regularly push them, to improve their skills. Majority of expert aerobatics pilots are well over the hill. Explain that one.


It wouldn't hurt for the RTA to adopt a similiar approach towards its driver education and public campaigns, and try and encourage virtuous behaviour rather than scare tactic that work for a little while until people become desensitized.

No, what wouldn't hurt is if the RTA wouldn't allow a person to recieve a driver's licence unless they can demonstrate a level of control, and a recovery from loss of traction, just like a pilot wont get his/her licence unless they can recover from a stall. Driver training should be more thorough, but seeing as it's not, one way or another, we should learn how to handle our cars.

[VX_SS_II]

Its kinda like that saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

A car is only as dangerous as the drivers ability, or lack of... Regardless of what the car is, its quite capable of killing the inexperienced/stupid driver.

In addition to that, you could be the best, most skilled driver out there, but it will take just one out of control idiot to take you out. Depending on how hard they hit, there may be sweet fcuk all you can do about it... But thats a bit off topic now...

[nudenut]

i used to find that even my old VL used to break out sideways when going up a slight hill when it kicked down a gear in the wet, often i didn't want it too.. it's this sort of thing that can get the unaware into big trouble..
Funny you should say that Jimmy - there should be an article on how dangerous autos are. Kicking down unexpectedly in the wet and suddenly doubling the power output accounts for a lot of brown undies I reckon. :jester: (And probably more than one or two crashes.)

My old (5 speed) VL used to be a hoot in the wet, especially when the tyres were nearing their use-by date. Could have been dangerous if I wasn't watching out though. Wow, who would have thought - driver awareness makes driving safer!

[SS Enforcer]

.
Before we all start the old FWD vs RWD thing, go out and ask people what they drive, you will be disgusted by how many people with licences don't know which end drives their car. This is a much bigger issue.


A bit off topic I know but mate went to court charged with a burnout type offence and he beat it. His solicitor asked the policewoman if it was a FWD or RWD car his client was driving. The copper wasn't game to have a guess and replied she didn't know ...... case dismissed.

cheers

[iamhappy46]

A bit off topic I know but mate went to court charged with a burnout type offence and he beat it. His solicitor asked the policewoman if it was a FWD or RWD car his client was driving. The copper wasn't game to have a guess and replied she didn't know ...... case dismissed.

cheers

A mate of mine had the same thing happen, until it came out in court that the car was AWD... tyre mark was only a single spinner :confused:

[Road Warrior]

Funny you should say that Jimmy - there should be an article on how dangerous autos are. Kicking down unexpectedly in the wet and suddenly doubling the power output accounts for a lot of brown undies I reckon. :jester: (And probably more than one or two crashes.)


My VT used to do this - LS1+Auto+stockies and you kick it down the thing used to go beserk. I beleive it was poorly matched ratios or something. It led to the cops over here banning V8's from the police force because some cars got written off and coppers killed during chases.

[Vulture]

The average driver has absolutely no idea how close they often come to the car's limits of adhesion, and most only find out they've reached or passed it when they suddenly find themselves adorning the scenery or the front of another car.

I was hoping that you were going to repand to this thread and was thinking of you when I was typing my original reply :love: :rofl:

Your comment above is very true. I recall being a passenger with a friend years ago and being shocked at his complete lack of awareness that his car was on the limits of grip. Occassionally the front end would loose grip in the wet conditions and he was completely unaware. For these people, FWD or perhaps RWD tuned for understeer is the safest compromise and car manufacturers would seem to agree as this is how they set up there vehicle.

The article in question is really a separate issue and it's true, surely the car could be driven well within its limits of adhesion with a sensible approach via the right foot. But it's important that responders to this thread separate this issue from the concept of FWD handling generally being safer for the "A to B" type people.

[VSSII]

MM.. Mr J Edgar, founder of more than one automotive/electrical mag in his time and contributor to others going back many years. Including Zoom if I'm not mistaken! Even wrote himself a book or two from memory. Nonetheless he's always been tarred as automotive writer from Adelaide with 'slighlty skewed' beliefs!

I remember many many years ago, about 1995 I think when I was a bit of a Toyota fan and a regular FF&R and occasional Hot 4's magazine purchaser, some 17yo pleb wrote in enquiring as to the best exhaust for his street celica. I think it might have had a 2tg or similar. I had one with a 1GGTE and as a side how I kept my licence is something I wonder to this day! Ohh the memories...Anyhow.. Edgar insisted he fit the largest exhaust possible to reduce back pressure, 3 inches if possible. For an injected street 1600! No mention of scavenging, lack of low rpm torque etc. This brought much toing and froing in preceeding issues by other writers and not long after something happened and he disappeared.

As a side, I also remember a motoring writer who sometimes contributes here, commenting in his regular column about 5 years ago. Reinforcing the need to be aware that just because something's wtitten on the net somewhere or in a magazine doesn't mean it's entirely true. It's important to be aware what this persons qualifications and experience are. Seems to ring true in this instance.

[seldo]

i used to find that even my old VL used to break out sideways when going up a slight hill when it kicked down a gear in the wet, often i didn't want it too.. it's this sort of thing that can get the unaware into big trouble..
True - and the phenomenon is exacerbated by the fact that most of our cars have cheap old cone-type LSDs which, with the added torque of a kick-down can suddenly change from a single spinner to a locker with the resultant instant step-out.


I was hoping that you were going to repand to this thread and was thinking of you when I was typing my original reply :love: :rofl:

Your comment above is very true. I recall being a passenger with a friend years ago and being shocked at his complete lack of awareness that his car was on the limits of grip. Occassionally the front end would loose grip in the wet conditions and he was completely unaware. For these people, FWD or perhaps RWD tuned for understeer is the safest compromise and car manufacturers would seem to agree as this is how they set up there vehicle.

The article in question is really a separate issue and it's true, surely the car could be driven well within its limits of adhesion with a sensible approach via the right foot. But it's important that responders to this thread separate this issue from the concept of FWD handling generally being safer for the "A to B" type people.
I was being driven in the wet by my baby daughter (she's almost 28 ;)) a while ago, and whilst she's actually quite a good driver (for a sheila ;)) I had to ask her to slow down.... With typical youngster over-confidence she gave me a bit of lip saying that there was no problem and that I was losing the plot and getting old, but I had trouble convincing her that she just didn't realise that she was actually already having a bit of an understeer in her Peugeot 306 conv. But because it's nice and progressive, and the nose tucks back in again when you back off, it cleverly disguises the situation....until you go one step too far... That's the sign of a well designed chassis, and that of course is why the majority of the world's appliance-cars are set-up this way - they know their intended audiences are basically incompetent... And conversely, that is why all the world's drivers' cars are RWD, because they wouldn't buy them if they were any other way...

[Brockfan05]

Evman and Tuna have pretty much nailed this subject I think. In any other form of mechanical transport - you need serious training and qualifications to be able to safely operate it. My 16 yo has just done the online test for her learners without reading the rulebook and passed it easily. I know for a fact the real test is not a lot harder so she will have no probs passing that one either. Then, with utterly NO drivng experience or training - she will be able to legally operate a vehicle on public roads. How many of you are as scared as I am right now????

Fortunately for all of us, I refuse to let her first experience of driving to be anywhere on the public roads, and she wont be allowed on them until I am satisfied that she knows her vehicle incl how to check it for safety, changing a tyre etc and how to stop/steer etc in an emergency. She will also be doing a basic driver training course.

It doesnt matter if its FWD, AWD or RWD, in untrained hands, cars are dangerous.

[EVL350]

the bloke sounds a bit limp wristed, i agree with TUNA.
im definatley going to go out and ditch my RWD now because someone who smashed a GTR into a tree said whilst being a twit said so.