Brake vents

[Lloyd1986]

I had (stole) an idea from this BMW M5 and V8 supercars. How about some break vents for the front wheels? Has anyone done this? Does it make any difference at all?

I just think it would look good in the lower front air damn of the VXS/SS especially with chrome bezels on the opening like this BMW :)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/Lloyd1986/618ecf75.jpg

[Mungrel]

Funny you should mention that, i did a brake duct setup on my ute, Nothing too fancy but it probably would have helped a little.
I've since removed it as i never got to a track day, but thinking of reinstalling it and maybe improving the design a bit.

Heres some pics of my initial setup.
Cost me a total of maybe an hours work, (including dodgy paintwork of calipers :D) and maybe $30 in parts.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/CIMG1056.jpg
Bumper removed, we see the front of the brake duct. Nothing fancy, it just sits behind the lower grill on my bumper.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/CIMG1064.jpg
With the wheel removed we see the duct coming through. You may notice i had to cut a portion of the plastic splash shield out. With this setup, when driving in a straight line, the air is going straight onto the tyre, however when the wheels are turned as your going round the corner, that is when they'll be cooled most effectively.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/CIMG1062.jpg

How it looks from under the vehicle with the bumper reinstalled. A bit of a tight squeeze, particularly on the drivers side on my car as ive got the number plate mounted there and i had to run a bit of extra tubing.

I'm going to do some fiddling over the next few weeks and see if i can rig it up to scoop cold air up from under the bumper.

Hope this helps

[Lloyd1986]

Nice job there, thanks for that. Would be good to have something like that set up permanently and designed as a feature like in the BMW. Surely break vents are better than none!

[Mungrel]

well thats it aye, i mean surely you'd wanna keep some temperature in the brakes, but yeah obviously ya don't want them frying on hot days etc.

It has crossed my mind to make a proper set using some 3 or even 4 inch diameter pipe, although something like fibreglass would probably be better so your can mould it around the frame & chassis etc.

hmm might go have a look n see what i can knock up today lol. (not with fibreglass though, im not that talented :() hehe

I just had a thought (yes it hurt this time of morning)

I remember seeing on a movie about the design and making of the Z06 vette, the size of the brake ducts affected the aerodynamics somehow, it wasn't a big deal, just something to keep in mind

[VX2VESS]

if your going to vent them u need to run the hose further alone down the torsion bar up the the center of the rotor rear, this is where the air will suck in then out through the rotor vents and cool it evenly.

[Mungrel]

yeah, so you'd probably need some smaller diameter tubing than what i used in the above pics.

[seedyrom]

(including dodgy paintwork of calipers :D)

LOL!!!

You weren't kidding!

[Mungrel]

LOL!!!

You weren't kidding!

:jester: hell no!
*sigh* one day ill get some bigger brakes with better paint.. but clutch and diff come first! :bawl:

They're not actually that bright, the wet paint reflected the camera flash rather.. well you can see the pic :lmao:

[VX2VESS]

yeah, so you'd probably need some smaller diameter tubing than what i used in the above pics.

they can start off big but end up small enough to direct air to the right place

this looks good
http://www.severnmotorsports.com/severnbrakevents.htm

or a full cover to ram it in
http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/e30m3/e30m3brakeduct.jpg

[JBonDSS]

Those Servern ones look real good

prices aren't terrible either http://www.severnmotorsports.com/orderonline.htm

[AussieTone]

What is the general opinion for normal driving use with a bit of spirited stuff through the twisty mountain roads thrown in. Are they needed or is the standard set up (VE SS) good enough?

Also, what would happen to brake performance if it ever rains again?

[Mungrel]

What is the general opinion for normal driving use with a bit of spirited stuff through the twisty mountain roads thrown in. Are they needed or is the standard set up (VE SS) good enough?

Also, what would happen to brake performance if it ever rains again?

Better late than never ;)

Without brake ducts in my ute, i've had a bit of fun on some outback twisty roads and never experienced any brake problems such as fade etc. Whilst the VEs are a bit heavier from memory, i imagine the brake setup is capable of pulling it up as good as, if not better than the std brakes on a pre VE commodore.

If you're keen to do some circuit racing, i'd be setting up some brake ducts which can be blocked off when not at the track.
Now that i've tried circuit racing and enjoyed it, i'm gonna re-work my brake ducts to a more permanent style which can be blocked off for normal driving.
When i sort it out i'll post pics.
At this stage im going to be running smaller ducting, and purchasing or manufacturing the hub adapaters (best name i could think of) for the ducting like these ones from another thread:

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/brakeduct12.jpg

JBondSS, that link doesnt appear to be working anymore. Any other ideas?

[saj]

Brake ducting makes a huge differance on the track but i dont think you'd ever need them on the street. Before i had brake ducting on the track i would have front rotor temps of high 700 degrees after a cool down lap and after the ducting i had low 300 degree temps after the cool down lap. Ive got pics of mine but i dont know how to post them.

[Mungrel]

ill post em if ya want Shane.

[planetdavo]

Brake ducting should generally NOT be used on a road car. They are not operating at 250km/h or more under maximum heating generating conditions like a race car. Why do you all think they get heavily on and off the brakes in during warm up laps?
Brakes need to operate in a certain temerature range to work at their most efficient, even on road cars. Run them too cool, and you risk loss of performance from reduced coeffient of friction, and also reduced rotor life from increased wear due to the incorrect temperature operating range.

[2 cylinders shy]

Some road cars come with brake ducts standars.
An avenue to investigate for those looking at doing this is to speak speak with brock engineering as they are the supplier of the brake duct systems for the brute series.:)

[PSI38L]

If the Brake ducting is not setup correctely it will not make any difference to the operating temps. it is a good idea to able to adjust the flow for street/track and different pad combo's.

[Mungrel]

If you're keen to do some circuit racing, i'd be setting up some brake ducts which can be blocked off when not at the track.
Now that i've tried circuit racing and enjoyed it, i'm gonna re-work my brake ducts to a more permanent style which can be blocked off for normal driving.



Brake ducting should generally NOT be used on a road car. They are not operating at 250km/h or more under maximum heating generating conditions like a race car. Why do you all think they get heavily on and off the brakes in during warm up laps?
Brakes need to operate in a certain temerature range to work at their most efficient, even on road cars. Run them too cool, and you risk loss of performance from reduced coeffient of friction, and also reduced rotor life from increased wear due to the incorrect temperature operating range.


If the Brake ducting is not setup correctely it will not make any difference to the operating temps. it is a good idea to able to adjust the flow for street/track and different pad combo's.

Not sure if you're both referring to my proposed plans, but in case you's are, i suggest re-reading my quote. I will be blocking the ducts off completely for normal driving. Therefore no air will be travelling through the ducts as if they aren't even there. ;)

[planetdavo]

No offence to you (hopefully), but humans are predominantly lazy creatures, and everyone I've ever known that has done this, and says they will ALWAYS block them off for the road, just end up driving around with the ducts open ALL THE TIME because they can't be bothered covering them up, then opening them, then covering them up, etc etc etc...!
Good luck with it all.

[WAVESS]

I had (stole) an idea from this BMW M5 and V8 supercars. How about some break vents for the front wheels? Has anyone done this? Does it make any difference at all?

I just think it would look good in the lower front air damn of the VXS/SS especially with chrome bezels on the opening like this BMW :)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/Lloyd1986/618ecf75.jpg

Sorry to take this back a couple of notches but are you planning on doing track work or just for street work or both? just curious.

As planetdavo said you can [U]possibly[U] do some harm if just street duties, excess water etc. Might be a prick to set up but if you wanted a switchable set up could an electronic butterfly aka zorst cut out or similar be utilized in the inlet.

Pls dont flame it, just throwing ideas out.

[Mungrel]

No offence to you (hopefully), but humans are predominantly lazy creatures, and everyone I've ever known that has done this, and says they will ALWAYS block them off for the road, just end up driving around with the ducts open ALL THE TIME because they can't be bothered covering them up, then opening them, then covering them up, etc etc etc...!
Good luck with it all.

None taken, i agree 100% with what you're saying. Although with me in particular, i look at it this way. Unblock the brake ducts when i'm doing any pre-race checks, and block em back off at the end of the night. Not a huge job, reach under the car and stuff a couple of socks in them :lol: (or perhaps something less dodgy :p)


Sorry to take this back a couple of notches but are you planning on doing track work or just for street work or both? just curious.

As planetdavo said you can possibly do some harm if just street duties, excess water etc. Might be a prick to set up but if you wanted a switchable set up could an electronic butterfly aka zorst cut out or similar be utilized in the inlet.

Pls dont flame it, just throwing ideas out.

In my case, the setup will be for both, however it will be blocked off for normal street driving.
As for the electronic butterfly, yes you could set something like that up, although something like that IMO would take at least a couple of hours to initially setup, and IMO when it will literally only take 2 minutes each time to block and unblock the brake ducts with duct tape or something, it begs the question, why mess round? (just my opinion though)

Pics of Shane's (saj) brake ducts:
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0881.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0884.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0885.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0886.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0887.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0888.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0889.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0890.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/Automotive/100_0891.jpg

[saj]

Thanks mate. The easyest way to block them off when there not used is get one of those thin foam camping matress and roll it up tight untill it the same size as the ducts then cut it to about 3" long and race tape the out side. Then it just a mater of pushing it in the end of the ducts and it seals perfecly. The ducting is 3" high temp silicon brake ducting from Revelution racegear and i got 6 foot for $150. If i was to do it again i'd get 7 foot because you need just over 3 foot per side as mine is a touch short. The area under the front number plate is a high pressure area so the closer you get the opening of the duct to the radiater the more air you'll get.

[Mungrel]

Cheers for that, answered my next question as well :)
I'll get in contact with them when it comes time to do it.

[VZ_V8]

mungrel... didnt u start a post about this a while ago and were saying how they cooled too much when u were driving on a highway, to the point where they didnt work well at all??? just curious why you have come back to it?

also saj... do you get any problems with that pipe hitting speed bumps etc, from the pics it appears to hang rather low and i would have thought it could get ripped off on bumps???

[saj]

mungrel... didnt u start a post about this a while ago and were saying how they cooled too much when u were driving on a highway, to the point where they didnt work well at all??? just curious why you have come back to it?

also saj... do you get any problems with that pipe hitting speed bumps etc, from the pics it appears to hang rather low and i would have thought it could get ripped off on bumps???

The only time it rubs is when i forget and park over a curb in a carpark. The photos are decieving its about the same hight as the exstractors.

[Mungrel]

mungrel... didnt u start a post about this a while ago and were saying how they cooled too much when u were driving on a highway, to the point where they didnt work well at all??? just curious why you have come back to it?


Yes, i did. The final consensus on the topic though was that the problem didn't lie with brake temperature, it was that the brakes hadn't been used for approximately 4hrs. Whether that meant there wasn't enough brake pressure, or that my foot was partially asleep and not pressing hard enough i'm not sure. I did another trip to Perth in August with the brake ducts fitted and had no problems at all. Having said that, i was on the brakes a lot more than the previous trip. Therefore i've concluded it was an isolated incident, one that is unlikely to re-occur IMO. Provided i can block the ducts off for normal driving i see no reason for concern :)
Time will tell though hey? :eyes:

[VZ_V8]

i suppose it will, IMO i dont see why having them would be anything other than a benefit for very spirited driving/track days. I have just changed my rotors and pads so i might be able to do a couple of track days this year. I would be interested to know how it works out if you go ahead with something and whether it would be worth putting them on for track days etc.
Cheers
Tim

[Mungrel]

I agree with you on that, with the exception of track days there isn't really any benefit to them IMO.

I've currently got slotted rotors up front (std size) with Ferodo pads. They worked well for the track day. But i wasn't pushing hard. As i get more confident on the track i'm bound to start noticing their responsiveness etc decline as the night goes on, so i'm hoping to head it off sooner rather than later :)

If i was dead serious about circuit racing i'd go out and buy a bigger brake upgrade, but the problem i'm faced with is that i also enjoy bolting 15s on and going to the drags. As many ppl are probably aware, once you bolt the bigger brakes on all round, you can't fit 15s on any more.

IMO first mod to do before installing brake ducts for circuit racing would be to put quality discs and pads on. Simple changes like that can make a big difference :)

[VZ_V8]

yeh last week i put 4 Slotted DBA Rotors on and also Ferodo Formula TS2000 pads. I am hoping this will go ok at my first track day whenever it may be...

[Mungrel]

theres one early in november from memory.
I'm hoping to make it down for that one.

[Mungrel]

Finally got round to hooking up some more functional brake ducts over the weekend.
I haven't decided on where or how i'm going to have the inlet for them, so at the moment they're just taped up behind the bumper with no air getting into them.

Here's some pics.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/VU/Duct1.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/VU/Duct2.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/VU/Duct3.jpg

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k188/fpv_eta/VU/Duct4.jpg

Surprisingly there's is still adequate ground clearance and on full lock, there's still a good 15-20mm of clearance between the wheel / tyre and the ducting.

[HSV Listy]

Looks the goods. Let us know how it goes. Have you got one of those temp laser reading thingies. I think you can get then from jaycar or dickies. That way you could triel vents bloked and open and get the different temps or how affective your set up is.
I am getting one for next season to test tyre and brake temps. I will see how you go before going the ducting method. All I am going to do is run them from the fog lights positing but get one of the cover things like in post 9 of this thread.
Does anybody know where to get one from.

[Mungrel]

Looks the goods. Let us know how it goes. Have you got one of those temp laser reading thingies. I think you can get then from jaycar or dickies. That way you could triel vents bloked and open and get the different temps or how affective your set up is.
I am getting one for next season to test tyre and brake temps. I will see how you go before going the ducting method. All I am going to do is run them from the fog lights positing but get one of the cover things like in post 9 of this thread.
Does anybody know where to get one from.

Cheers mate,
I've been trying to find one of those laser temperature readers, but there's no jaycar or dickies up here. Next best thing was one from bunnings but that only reads up to 100c (aka no good! :lol:)

If my Gtech was still working i'd hook that up and do a series of 100-0 braking tests.
I'm thinking of making a thin rectangular scoop setup under the radiator (mounted a bit further forward though) which should hopefully provide some air, and using the same theory as with a throttle body, reducing the inlet size should increase velocity. All things sweet, i should also be able to make a proper cover for them to block them off with ease when not required for normal day to day driving.

[saj]

Ive checked rotor temps before and after i put ducting on. Before the ducting after one cool down lap- mid to high 700 degrees and after ducting with one cool down lap- low 300 degree rotor temps.

[Mungrel]

wow thats quite a difference!

[HSV Listy]

That is allot. WOW. So under race temps the rotors would be at or dam near their optium temps. Nice. I found a kit on the CAPA site for a mustang that looks ok but would need a couple of mods to get it to fit. Just waiting to hear back from them to see what is involved

This brake ducting sounds like the goods. Might bring the job forward and get stuck into it.
Couple of sites I found.
http://www.kormanfastbmw.com/e30m3bra.htm

See about 1/3 way down the page.
http://www.capa.com.au/shm_brakes.htm

[saj]

That is allot. WOW. So under race temps the rotors would be at or dam near their optium temps. Nice.

Before the ducting they where to hot for any pad but now there about right for DS3000 or Hawk blacks but still to hot for DS2500s. I normally use a track pad that has a optimin working temp around 1000- 1300 degree range and that seems about perfect.