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Mikhael
05-06-2007, 11:26 PM
Found this good write-up today by Chris Riley on the Epica.

It's an honest assessment of the car and the most realistic to date.
All the other journo's attempts so far have been dramatised or over critical just because it is made in Korea, which I think is becoming tired and lame. Korean made cars are improving in leaps and bounds.
Anyway you be the judge.............

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Holden Epica: what's in a name?


This Daewoo-made Holden family sedan is impressive.
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05 June 2007

Chris Riley

After driving the new Holden Epica one wonders what a difference a team of Holden engineers might have made to Daewoo's fortunes in this country? We weren't expecting much from the Epica but we were amazed to find that it's not just good, but in fact very good; one might even say impressive.

Our expectations weren’t high because in all but name, the mid-sized Epica is a Daewoo, designed and manufactured by GM-Daewoo in South Korea and rebadged as a Holden for sale here. Back home it's called the Tosca which leads to the inevitable tongue in cheek comments about chocolate bars from those scribes old enough to remember.

Recalling the slogan Holden has indeed “Gone for a Tosca” in turning to South Korea for a Vectra replacement - a cheaper option than Europe. But all jokes aside, the finished product is unlike any Daewoo that we’ve ever driven.

While it’s not going to win any awards for looks, the car is quiet, roomy and comfortable, delivering good economy and well equipped for the price. Kicking off at $25,990 plus on-roads, Holden is hoping that it's good enough to steal a sizeable chunk of business from Toyota's all-conquering Camry.

At that price it undercuts Camry by more than $2000 but is lineball with Hyundai's Sonata and the Kia Magentis, the latter of which comes with electronic stability control.

It's one thing to have a good product, but that's still no guarantee of success as Daewoo’s Korean cousin Hyundai can testify. Hyundai has been turning out some great cars lately, sadly it's just that no one is particularly interested in buying them.

It's here that the Holden badge comes into play because it is the badge that will make the difference in the long run. With a Lion on the back, experience has shown that buyers don't seem to care too much where a car is from. At least, it doesn't seem to have bothered buyers of Barina and Viva, two of Holden's other Korean models.

Combined sales for Viva and Barina have topped 7200 vehicles so far this year. This compares to almost 7000 European-sourced Astras.


At the time of writing Holden had sold 179 Epicas since launch in April, compared to 286 Vectras for the same period last year. But it's early days yet.

To look at there's not much separating Epica from Tosca.

A quick visual comparison shows the front grille has been replaced and it has different wheels and badges - but that's about all. It's under the skin that the big changes can be found, specifically in the suspension and noise reduction departments.

Holden said the car was extensively re-tuned by its engineers at its Lang Lang proving ground to ensure that it met Australia's diverse driving conditions.

Epica comes in three different models - 2.0-litre CDX, 2.5-litre CDX auto and 2.5-litre CDXi auto. In a rather enticing move, both engines are small, in-line sixes rather than fours offered by Toyota, Hyundai or Kia. What's more, the Porsche-designed engine (yes, Porsche) has a smooth, refined quality feel with a nice note under load that drivers will find attractive.

The smaller engine is teamed with a five-speed manual while the larger power plant is available only with a four-speed auto.

Our test car was the entry level 2.0-litre CDX manual. The 2.0-litre engine produces 105kW of power at 6400rpm and 195Nm of torque from 2600rpm, using premium unleaded. It could use some more torque, but without sounding like we’re trying to defend the car, it's an easy thing to accommodate. The key is to change down early and keep up the revs.

Mid-range response is good and the gearing is well matched to the engine, because it doesn't run out of puff as early as might be expected; with the best results found above 3000rpm.

The car is fitted with 16-inch alloys and 205/60 profile tyres, with a ride that is firm but in no way harsh, with good bump insulation offered by the suspension. It even handles reasonably well within acceptable limits.

Inside, the interior is impressively quiet, with supportive seats and generous leg room in the back. Conversation between the front and back seats is unstrained. Thankfully the headlights have been wired to turn off with the ignition, which means you can leave them on all the time for safety.

The window switches are backlit for night operation, but the steering wheel mounted cruise and audio controls miss out and can be hard to locate and operate as a result.

Fuel economy from the 65-litre tank is rated at 8.2 litres/100km, using premium - but it will run happily on standard unleaded with a slight loss of power. We got economy of 9.8 litres/100km during mixed testing.

Standard equipment includes air conditioning, front and side airbags for driver and front passenger, cruise control, anti-lock brakes, power windows and mirrors, and 16-inch alloy wheels, with a 15-inch temporary spare rated to 80km/h.

Traction control is fitted as standard which stops the front wheels from spinning, but the car misses out on the more sophisticated electronic stability control system fitted to Commodores.

All in all Epica is an impressive package for the price. If you look closely you can identify where corners have been cut, but all manufacturers are guilty of this and at the end of the day you get what you pay for. It offers the same sort of interior space as Commodore and with a largish boot. For $2,000 more you get the same car with the larger engine and automatic transmission or $5,000 more the top of the line model with a body kit and all the fruit. We can see the car appealing to families on a budget.

Holden is offering a 30-day 1,500km money back guarantee on the car until the end of the year, but be sure to read the fine print before signing on the dotted line, as it’s a little more complicated than that.

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:thumbsup:

Febs
05-06-2007, 11:37 PM
...but it's made in Korea.

Belzey
05-06-2007, 11:40 PM
...but it's made in Korea.

And people that buy them I do not think will care :)

Danv8
06-06-2007, 06:51 AM
...but it's made in Korea.

Like 98% of our products comes from Korea, China, Japan, Malaysia, India, France, Mexico, America, thailand. and so forth.

Most of our stuff we use and buy is most likely to be impoted from another country one way or another.

Unless you live in a house without appliances and a TV. :)

BadMac
06-06-2007, 07:00 AM
...but it's made in Korea.

In 5 years that statement will be a badge of honour. Just look at the Plasma and LCD panels and most quality consumer electronics, even the chinese stuff claims "panel made in korea".

Watch out, made in Japan was a term of derision for many years, now its quality (if not always inspired styling).

EddieVE06
06-06-2007, 09:18 AM
I saw a black Epica CDXi this morning coming towards me and I have to say from the front it looks realy nice, low, wide and chunky, the rear was a little bit of a let down but I'm sure if the car is here to stay thet it will get some changes over time. Still a little worried about the power and torque figures though

muzza
06-06-2007, 10:31 AM
Yah - sounds like Holden may have got in early enough on the Epica to engineer a moderate winner - they missed a bit with the Captiva.
Initial reports are generally positive - the VFM equation is pretty good as it's loaded with plenty of gear.

Shame they put some tame engines in - and the "big" one is tied to a 4 speed auto - everyone else is using 5's now. Wheels figures in the latest mag were 0-100 in 12 and 0-400 in 18 which is a bit off the pace. A manual with the 2.5 might be a bit more exciting, or what about dropping the 3.2 Global V6 into it?

Still, they look the goods.

Pickles
06-06-2007, 11:43 AM
I've had a good look at the Epica range, as it is a Holden, & of a size that would be acceptable to my wife & myself.
Neither of us are impressed--the 2 litre engine is absolutely gutless, & the 2.5 litre engine is only marginally better. The looks of the car are average, & the interior, particularly the seating, is nothing special. This is just a very bland offering from Holden to fill a gap on the showroom floor.
The "bowling green set" might buy it, but anyone who has even a slight interest in a responsive, rewarding, vehicle will leave this alone.
Cheers, Pickles.

Invasionss
06-06-2007, 11:59 AM
Sounds good, but cant be bothered reading it all. ok just read it all.

Justin

Holden Man
06-06-2007, 12:08 PM
..... but anyone who has even a slight interest in a responsive, rewarding, vehicle will leave this alone.
Cheers, Pickles.


Perfect to take on the Camry at it's own game !

HSVMAN
06-06-2007, 01:48 PM
.......... This is just a very bland offering from Holden to fill a gap on the showroom floor.
The "bowling green set" might buy it, but anyone who has even a slight interest in a responsive, rewarding, vehicle will leave this alone.
Cheers, Pickles.

I agree with that Pickles, but arent the Camry etc that it competes with all in the same class? ie uninspiring, but perfectly nice cars for the price?

If you wanted a car with some get up you would buy none of the Korean or Japanese equivalents IMO

Pickles
06-06-2007, 04:02 PM
Holdenman & Hsvman--well yeah, I suppose you're both right with respect to the Camry, but I'd reckon the build quality of the Camry would be far better- Toyota make a big issue of that, & rightly so. I'm just not impressed with that sort of car--I know Holden says it can't use the Opel based product any more because of the cost, but really, the Epica imho is a poor substitute. Ford will re-introduce the Mondeo soon, & that will be a far better car than Epica.
Cheers, Pickles.

HSVMAN
07-06-2007, 06:03 AM
Holdenman & Hsvman--well yeah, I suppose you're both right with respect to the Camry, but I'd reckon the build quality of the Camry would be far better- Toyota make a big issue of that, & rightly so. I'm just not impressed with that sort of car--I know Holden says it can't use the Opel based product any more because of the cost, but really, the Epica imho is a poor substitute. Ford will re-introduce the Mondeo soon, & that will be a far better car than Epica.
Cheers, Pickles.

The Mondeo should, by all accounts be a very nice car from what I've seen.
It will also be much more expensive than Epica.
I should be biased, but I'm not, and I expected the worst with Epica (thinking Viva/Barina) but the finish is very good. So is Captiva as they are both built in the same new plant.
I do wish they were able to keep the Vectra however, and I think that may change with tariff cuts later on. We'll see

Black AH CDX
07-06-2007, 08:12 AM
...but it's made in Korea.

The car is put together by robots. A Robot is just a computer prgram controlled machine. It Doesn't know that it is in Korea. Infact it could be the same sort of robot that works in another factory in Germany, but do you think that the robot knows that its korean?




Shame they put some tame engines in - and the "big" one is tied to a 4 speed auto - everyone else is using 5's now.

Actually it has a 5 speed auto. ;-)

HSVMAN
07-06-2007, 08:36 AM
The car is put together by robots. A Robot is just a computer prgram controlled machine. It Doesn't know that it is in Korea. Infact it could be the same sort of robot that works in another factory in Germany, but do you think that the robot knows that its korean?
Actually it has a 5 speed auto. ;-)

Considering many luxury cars are built in every corner of the world including countries the western world never would have considered buying cars from 50 years ago, they are not doing to bad.
Apparently the new GMDAT factory in Korea is one of the most up-to-date in the world.
I'm surprised how many companies in NZ are changing their "4 cylinder only" policies to buy the Epica. After all we must remember that it is only a 4 cylinder competitor

Patrick
07-06-2007, 10:00 PM
Considering many luxury cars are built in every corner of the world including countries the western world never would have considered buying cars from 50 years ago, they are not doing to bad.
Apparently the new GMDAT factory in Korea is one of the most up-to-date in the world.
I'm surprised how many companies in NZ are changing their "4 cylinder only" policies to buy the Epica. After all we must remember that it is only a 4 cylinder competitor

Epica might be 6 cylinder, but it has the economy of a 4, and better economy than 4 cylinder Camry.

It doesn't make sense those fleet managers who say they only buy 4 cylinder cars now.

Febs
07-06-2007, 10:34 PM
In 5 years that statement will be a badge of honour.

<snip>

Watch out, made in Japan was a term of derision for many years, now its quality (if not always inspired styling).

Psst..it was a pisstake guys.

I agree that one day Korean cars will be as highly respected as Japanese cars are today. I've been saying that for....8-odd years now! I personally don't think it'll happen in the next 5 years, but it won't be far off.

Cheers,
- Febs.

muzza
08-06-2007, 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by muzza

Shame they put some tame engines in - and the "big" one is tied to a 4 speed auto - everyone else is using 5's now.

Actually it has a 5 speed auto. ;-)

Crud! - you are correct Black AH CDX (munch munch - me eating a bit of humble pie!).
They are a five speed auto - dunno what I was thinking of. Doh!:confused:

steane
21-06-2007, 07:03 PM
The Epica and its Korean origins are getting some negative feeback (like the TK Barina) but the reality is they are cheaper than the equivalent euro sourced models and not everyone likes spending lots of $'s on cars. They fill a niche and should only be criticized if they are crap. People who are into cars won't buy them, people who are into value will.

monaroCountry1
21-06-2007, 08:15 PM
They fill a niche and should only be criticized if they are crap. People who are into cars won't buy them, people who are into value will.

Apart from being made in Korea th Epica fulfills all its objectives. The new Daewoos have been reliable, cheap, feature packed, good handling, good on fuel and has some style.

The Koreans are actually getting close to if not have already surpassed the Japanese in the reliability department. Judging by the troubles popping up for Toyota ill hazard a guess and say that it wont be long till Korea = 1st in reliability.

IH8japauto
21-06-2007, 08:53 PM
Are we all forgetting that GMDAT might be a korean name but Holden and GM bought them out a few years ago. ?? Some of the profits come back home. AND .... we supply engines for captiva and other models. Toyotas profits go you know where !!!

SV346
21-06-2007, 09:46 PM
The epica does have a massive boot for the cars class, and the room beats all its competitors i can think of, other than that its got everything someone would need and like, and the buyers wont really care about the engine side of things as long as it is yes smooth and gets them from a to b easily and safely. And the interiors quality really isnt that bad, only thing i noticed with them is they have hight adjustable steering only.

toyocharged
22-06-2007, 12:03 AM
Are we all forgetting that GMDAT might be a korean name but Holden and GM bought them out a few years ago. ?? Some of the profits come back home. AND .... we supply engines for captiva and other models. Toyotas profits go you know where !!!

The toyota profits may go offshore, but the Camry is produced here with our local workforce. WHich IMHO counts for a lot

payaya
22-06-2007, 03:09 AM
The car is put together by robots. A Robot is just a computer prgram controlled machine. It Doesn't know that it is in Korea. Infact it could be the same sort of robot that works in another factory in Germany, but do you think that the robot knows that its korean?



Actually it has a 5 speed auto. ;-)

The car is designed in Korea thats the problem! Korean cars are designed to be cheap to make, more affordable for consumers. To make a good car requires development and instruduction of quality parts. So really this sort of rules the Korean cars out. I believe Korean quality is ahead of the aussies, but Aussies use the better parts and more development is put into the vehicles.

Aussie cars are more expensive than Korean cars, as they are better, not better quality.

The fiesta/modeo/focus are all European, they are good cars due to the mechanical nature of vehicle. They are good cars for that reason not from quality, even when they are still pretty good.

Ford 5.4 DOHC, 6 Speed ZF, control blade, brembo. All expensive hardware.

Mitsubishi EVO. Think of all the hardware in that car, you wont see that in an Korean car.


The toyota profits may go offshore, but the Camry is produced here with our local workforce. WHich IMHO counts for a lot

Way things are going for Toyota, aussie built Toyotas will be for a long time. their business sense and the way they have pushed their market share to the way it is now world wide in increadible. 20 billion dollar profit, while GM and Ford has billions in losses.

Either Ford/GM recover or Toyota will buy them out imo.

HSVMAN
22-06-2007, 07:32 AM
Way things are going for Toyota, aussie built Toyotas will be for a long time. their business sense and the way they have pushed their market share to the way it is now world wide in increadible. 20 billion dollar profit, while GM and Ford has billions in losses.

Either Ford/GM recover or Toyota will buy them out imo.

Yeah I know I couldn't resist.... Toyota's profits in Australia are dismal for the sales numbers IMO. I understand their philosophy is to reduce the cost of each new model by 20% which doesnt help with R&D (if this is true).
You should of course know why GM and FORD are in the poo, and if so would understand wht is required to get them out. Fortunately for GM they are ahead of the 8 ball more so than FORD at this stage.

Basically I presume your comments are a wind up as they have no substance.

No-one can deny Toyota's market penetration as they have a huge range of product but there is very good reason for it, and its not just profit

IH8japauto
22-06-2007, 07:43 AM
The toyota profits may go offshore, but the Camry is produced here with our local workforce. WHich IMHO counts for a lot

Produced here ,,,yes . They don't spend a billion dollars developing it HERE - that is done offshore. Also , to get the tax incentives what is the mininum local content needed ?. IMO they would be a use the mininum amount.

toyocharged
22-06-2007, 07:39 PM
Produced here ,,,yes . They don't spend a billion dollars developing it HERE - that is done offshore. Also , to get the tax incentives what is the mininum local content needed ?. IMO they would be a use the mininum amount.

So the epica was developed here with over 1 billion dollars spent, maybe your thinking of the Commodore platform, which I would buy tommorrow if I was in the market for a large RWD Sedan as its built here.


IMO they would be a use the mininum amount. WTF

payaya
22-06-2007, 07:59 PM
Yeah I know I couldn't resist.... Toyota's profits in Australia are dismal for the sales numbers IMO. I understand their philosophy is to reduce the cost of each new model by 20% which doesnt help with R&D (if this is true).
You should of course know why GM and FORD are in the poo, and if so would understand wht is required to get them out. Fortunately for GM they are ahead of the 8 ball more so than FORD at this stage.

Basically I presume your comments are a wind up as they have no substance.

No-one can deny Toyota's market penetration as they have a huge range of product but there is very good reason for it, and its not just profit

I think Toyota are using big boy tactics. They made 20 billion dollars last financial year, so profit less and make their cars more appealing to customers. So bascially make the smaller boys struggle more than what they are now.

Manufacturers always buy shares in other companies when they are stuggling. So how does it have no substance? Ford bought part of Mazda when it was struggling, so Toyota with so much cash they only can spend so much on their F1 team :)

I remeber I read somewhere Ford have 40 billions dollars left, so its not long before they needs to start profiting.

Same thing is happening to AMD, business was booming for them 1-2 years ago now they are in Fords shoes.