VE blowing black smoke under WOT?

[redss]

Just wondering if it is common for the VEs to blow a lot of black smoke under WOT? Mine doesn't seem to use oil, but sink the right boot in and sometimes you can actually see the plume of smoke in the rear vision mirror behind you. The revs don't have to be through the roof either, roughly 4000rpm would be all it needs to do it (i.e. not really top of the rev range!). It also gets a buildup of black 'crap' on the rear bumper between weekly washes. The car does a lot of long trips (i.e. open road for 40 minutes 3 days a week) It also now has over 13 000km on it, so it's pretty well run-in. To be honest the smoke is a bit embarassing!

I never noticed this much smoke from my VU. I'm starting to miss the old girl...:bawl:

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Cheers

[Mungrel]

sounds to me like shes running a bit rich perhaps?
If it were burning oil, youd be seeing blue smoke IMO.
Someone else can confirm this for me, but they're tuned rich from factory arent they?

[VE6L]

I have a VE SS-V had had no such problems with black smoke comming out when giving it! may a bit rich tune? I have noticed with mine that in the mornings when it is warming up you can smell how rich the mixture is but when hot is ok. I have 16k on it

[VEssNoob]

ok i know it wont help but gees mate id be panicing a bit about that

[EXCESSV]

no big deal mate.
its common...its running slightly rich and unburnt fuel and carbon being spat out under force.

was behind a VE R8 today with 370 badge on it and when he nailed it to TRY loose me....he spat out huge amounts of black smoke when he nailed it....mind you his 370 badge is a little bit of a lie as he couldnt shake me...u could say he was behind me in no time :lol:

tried seeing if mine did and it didnt...although i have tints and it was overcast so maybe thats why :confused:
i have 10,000km on mine with a full exhaust and tune so i dont think its running rich


has yours got a tune or aftermarket exhaust??

[ratty05]

I've noticed my R8 blows a shite load of something out the back when given the beans. I originally thought it was smoke but have never had any build up on the rear, so I've been wondering if it's just steam/heat with it being winter and all? Had my father in law behind me the other day and he said you can't actually see the back of the car when it does it. Should I also be more concerned, it doesn't use any oil or water. what can we do to stop it?

[dracer]

yer my VZ does it at idle, and a light haze on WOT... its not black so dont stress....

off to holden for you, do it sooner than later to ease your mind

dr

[Curtis-R]

I thought I once saw something like that when giving it the berries.. but havent really seen it since.. But now after reading this I'll probably look behind me all the time when booting it lol. :confused:

[macca_779]

They do run quite rich stock. Rev it in neutral and you'll see what I mean. I'm just amazed you can see it while your driving. Perhaps it is a little worse than its meant to be.

[redss]

no big deal mate.
its common...its running slightly rich and unburnt fuel and carbon being spat out under force.

was behind a VE R8 today with 370 badge on it and when he nailed it to TRY loose me....he spat out huge amounts of black smoke when he nailed it....mind you his 370 badge is a little bit of a lie as he couldnt shake me...u could say he was behind me in no time :lol:

tried seeing if mine did and it didnt...although i have tints and it was overcast so maybe thats why :confused:
i have 10,000km on mine with a full exhaust and tune so i dont think its running rich


has yours got a tune or aftermarket exhaust??

It just has an aftermarket exhaust. I am kind of thinking that maybe a tune would go some way toward fixing the problem (assuming its just a mixture sort of issue)... but that's a little way down the track.

P.S. love the avatar EXCESSV :)

[crYnOid]

On a cold day/night mine will blow a huge amount of white steam out the back when it isn't completely up to temperature and I give it a bit. Its is just like a smoke screen, only steam....

It was quite amusing one night to get on it a bit coming onto a hwy and have this cloud of steam shooting a good 5m out the back :jester:

[Delco]

Black smoke can be detonation , they dont run rich from the factory but they do run too much timing std.

Excess timing will cause black smoke , best to get it on a dyno and checked , look at the octane scaler , it will tell a story if there is one.

[EXCESSV]

Black smoke can be detonation , they dont run rich from the factory but they do run too much timing std.

Excess timing will cause black smoke , best to get it on a dyno and checked , look at the octane scaler , it will tell a story if there is one.wheres the thanks button when ya need it.

thanks for that reply dan.

explains why i dont seem to see smoke coming out of mine under hard throttle...ya tuning magic has got it running sweet :bow:

[SV8er]

Hmm havent seen any coming out of mine but then again pretty hard to see through the Tint ...But now this has been mentioned will do some checkin

[jaykay]

Hmm havent seen any coming out of mine but then again pretty hard to see through the Tint ...But now this has been mentioned will do some checkin
Yeah I'vd love to do some closer checking of your rear end Len... :rofl:





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[SV8er]

Yeah I'vd love to do some closer checking of your rear end Len... :rofl:





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Pure GOLD John , You are all CLASS

Now Back on Track Fellas

[redss]

Black smoke can be detonation , they dont run rich from the factory but they do run too much timing std.

Excess timing will cause black smoke , best to get it on a dyno and checked , look at the octane scaler , it will tell a story if there is one.


Thanks for that. It has been on a dyno (253rwkw with the exhaust:)), but not sure if aspects of its tune were being examined. It was only a couple of power runs, and I didn't ask the tuner to look at anything else as there was no particular reason to.

Cheers

Pete

[Delco]

Thanks for that. It has been on a dyno (253rwkw with the exhaust:)), but not sure if aspects of its tune were being examined. It was only a couple of power runs, and I didn't ask the tuner to look at anything else as there was no particular reason to.

Cheers

Pete

Exactly , they run too much timing stock and adding a exhaust that flows more just agrevates the problem , best to get it tuned properly when funds permit , you will find it drives a lot nicer as well as safeguarding the motor

[macca_779]

Dan the tune file I have out of an L98 shows they go as rich as 11.26:1, 11.43:1@6144. That seems quite rich to me. I tuned an L98 last week and commanded leaner mixtures of around mid to high 12's and a bit more timing in some areas, it made considerable gains and was a lot smoother than stock.

[JezzaB]

Dan the tune file I have out of an L98 shows they go as rich as 11.26:1, 11.43:1@6144. That seems quite rich to me. I tuned an L98 last week and commanded leaner mixtures of around mid to high 12's and a bit more timing in some areas, it made considerable gains and was a lot smoother than stock.

The L76 I did was very similar and ive checked out the L98 too. 11.4 is turbo and blower territory for fueling and a tad rich at that...


Exactly , they run too much timing stock and adding a exhaust that flows more just agrevates the problem , best to get it tuned properly when funds permit , you will find it drives a lot nicer as well as safeguarding the motor

When you say that its running too much timing are you saying that its got too much timing for the stock AFRs and affecting the burn?

Curious

[Delco]

Dan the tune file I have out of an L98 shows they go as rich as 11.26:1, 11.43:1@6144. That seems quite rich to me. I tuned an L98 last week and commanded leaner mixtures of around mid to high 12's and a bit more timing in some areas, it made considerable gains and was a lot smoother than stock.


That is only commanded not actual , normally see them on the dyno in mid 12's going from 12 to 13 yields omly a very small amount of power 2-5kw on average.

have a look at the knock scaler , see it time and time again where people add more timing , the car moves closer to the low octane as a result and feels better as the detonation makes the PCM take out more timing than is required.

Check it on the dyno and see.


The L76 I did was very similar and ive checked out the L98 too. 11.4 is turbo and blower territory for fueling and a tad rich at that...



When you say that its running too much timing are you saying that its got too much timing for the stock AFRs and affecting the burn?

Curious


Watch the detonation and listen for it with some good chassis ears , it is there on the stocker.

[macca_779]

I did notice that the MAF is scaled lean. I've improved that on my L98 tune. Its been widely accepted that the knock sensors are too sensitive. So yeah the ASpark is going to be low. I found the car I did sitting on 750 (wield scaling in these things) and it has always been run on good fuel. Desensitise them and watch the difference. I did still see some KR with them scaled down but only in low rpm/high load areas. Up top in the higher airflow/RPM cells this one loved mid 20's I've found them respond well to similar timing maps I run in LS1's

[Delco]

I did notice that the MAF is scaled lean. I've improved that on my L98 tune. Its been widely accepted that the knock sensors are too sensitive. So yeah the ASpark is going to be low. I found the car I did sitting on 750 (wield scaling in these things) and it has always been run on good fuel. Desensitise them and watch the difference. I did still see some KR with them scaled down but only in low rpm/high load areas. Up top in the higher airflow/RPM cells this one loved mid 20's I've found them respond well to similar timing maps I run in LS1's


What makes you think the knock sensor is too sensitive - internet ?

Get some chassis ears on the motor and have a listen , they are a little slow to react actually
AHHHHH LS1 timing on a higher compression motor with better cylinder filling ??? , hope your insurance is good - each to there own.

i would never play with a customers car and risk damage.

Anyway back on topic , get the motor checked by a expert tuner on a dyno to analyse what is happening , not by guessing on the road on what feels right.

[macca_779]

What makes you think the knock sensor is too sensitive - internet ?

Get some chassis ears on the motor and have a listen , they are a little slow to react actually
AHHHHH LS1 timing on a higher compression motor with better cylinder filling ??? , hope your insurance is good - each to there own.

i would never play with a customers car and risk damage.

Similar not exact.. The trend is similar to how it builds I've found.. Not the total. I would never risk damage to another persons car either. So you leave the knock sensors stock? And yes Dan the Internet has taught me alot on what works and what doesn't. There are some pretty clue'd on tuners out there that are willing to share their findings. Obviously not all of it is gospel but there is some good info out there. Perhaps you should listen to what other have say sometimes. And not think that because its your way it must be the right way.

[Delco]

Its amazing , the GM powertrain engineer spends vaste amounts of time with some very seroius equipment calibrating the engines sensors to make them work near on perfect under a whole range of scenario's to make the engine as safe as possible so they can run up to the limit ( and past it in this case ) and because we read something on the internet it must be true.

Go and do a log of individual cylinder detonation to see what effect detonation is having.

may as well go back to old school and turn the knock sensors off as well as the dual spark maps :flipoff:

Doing that as a experimant on your own car is one thing , to do it to someone elses pride and joy is another


Similar not exact.. The trend is similar to how it builds I've found.. Not the total. I would never risk damage to another persons car either. So you leave the knock sensors stock? And yes Dan the Internet has taught me alot on what works and what doesn't. There are some pretty clue'd on tuners out there that are willing to share their findings. Obviously not all of it is gospel but there is some good info out there. Perhaps you should listen to what other have say sometimes. And not think that because its your way it must be the right way.

its not just my way , have a talk to some of the true engine tuners as I do and we all find similar things both here in QLD and NZ and in the good old USofA , dont believe everythign you read on the net.

But I wont bother sharing that sort of info again.

[macca_779]

Now thats just being silly Dan. If the GM engineer got it spot on then people like you would be out of buisness. MAF's are not calibrated right neither is VE to name two. So that GM engineer isn't always right, much like yourself. I remember having a discussion with Sonny on how he alters knock calibrations too. He believes that changing the exhaust headers requires recalibrating the sensors. While I don't quite agree with that in Toto, I do believe they are too sensitive stock. Each to their own I guess. You do your thing and we'll do ours.

[CalaisRider]

Yeah I'vd love to do some closer checking of your rear end Len... :rofl:





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I have had others follow me at full blast and many have stated that mine blows a quite obvious "red plume" at max rpm/shift change.

No issues to date though....



IMHO in your case, first - Holden ... If its still happening after they play with it under warranty; then seek Local Tuner assistance.. What you describe certainly doesn't sound normal for a VE.

Pete

[macca_779]

I have had others follow me at full blast and many have stated that mine blows a quite obvious "red plume" at max rpm/shift change.

No issues to date though....



IMHO in your case, first - Holden ... If its still happening after they play with it under warranty; then seek Local Tuner assistance.. What you describe certainly doesn't sound normal for a VE.

Pete

Red Plume? Did you ever work out what that was?

[CalaisRider]

Red Plume? Did you ever work out what that was?


Nah mate - its the strangest of things!!!!!


Early days i had quite a RED coloured sorst pipe most of ther time. I asked various shops and tuners as to "why" - but geese at that time not too many people knew mutch of the VE at all - hence no definitive answer (and I can understand)!!!

Some how over time and "Three" Edits later - the sorst is now the normal black colour in the main, but when I launch her in the twisties, the feedback is that a Redish tinge is aparent at he point of rev limiter changes. Hmmm maybe a one-off phenomina with mine, but that continually makes me nervous as to why????

I'm sure this will all change when PowerTorque put the 224/230 114 LSA Cam change behind the A6 with a STOCK converter in place. Gawd knows what the outcome will be LOL. Ya never know if ya don't have a go is my philosophy!!!!

Bottom line is that my Car "must" sound and look like a stock VE Calais V as a daily driver/school bus - plus be a competitive 400m strip machine , plus circuite/track runner, plus Road Rally machine. Hmmm a big ask in one package but i am steadily progressing to the Sleeper Goal...


Avagodone

Pete

[Delco]

Now thats just being silly Dan. If the GM engineer got it spot on then people like you would be out of buisness. MAF's are not calibrated right neither is VE to name two. So that GM engineer isn't always right, much like yourself. I remember having a discussion with Sonny on how he alters knock calibrations too. He believes that changing the exhaust headers requires recalibrating the sensors. While I don't quite agree with that in Toto, I do believe they are too sensitive stock. Each to their own I guess. You do your thing and we'll do ours.


You presume that the GM calibrator got it wrong ? , having been a OEM powertrain calibrator for Jaguar , GM and Ford I can assure you that doesnt happen.
The tune is the way it is for a reason , one minor change and there is a bank of guys refining it all again to suit the new conditions over months.

The calibrator has to work within a tight constraint of parameter and targets they need to meet to pass emmision drivablity power and future upgrades based on what the competition come out with as well as the average joe out on the street who subjects the engine to sub artic conditions or blistering heat with the poorest fuel and the heaviest trailer.

We refine the std tune for the customer based on a very loose set of parameters as we dont have these issues , that is where we make the gains and our living , it gets harder each year as there is less to gain.

People that presume they know better and do it with no test equipment or experince amaze me , exhaust changing the resonant frequency of the block - go figure !

[TheRiddler]

Dan the tune file I have out of an L98 shows they go as rich as 11.26:1, 11.43:1@6144. That seems quite rich to me. I tuned an L98 last week and commanded leaner mixtures of around mid to high 12's and a bit more timing in some areas, it made considerable gains and was a lot smoother than stock.

Maybe its that rich to reduce exhaust gas temperature?

[VYII_R8]

was behind a VE R8 today with 370 badge on it and when he nailed it to TRY loose me....he spat out huge amounts of black smoke when he nailed it....mind you his 370 badge is a little bit of a lie as he couldnt shake me...u could say he was behind me in no time :lol:


Funny you should mention that R8 - Evoke in colour isn't it?

I was in my brothers edit only XR6T (approx 270rwkws) and the same guy (VE 370 ) tried to run us from the lights last week... My brother's XR6T pulled away from him at a rate of knots... it was embarrasing. Although, for the few seconds I could hear the VE it sounded sweet!

I don't think it is really 370kws... I think it's just a stock 307kw R8 with a 370 badge :bawl:

[EXCESSV]

Funny you should mention that R8 - Evoke in colour isn't it?

I was in my brothers edit only XR6T (approx 270rwkws) and the same guy (VE 370 ) tried to run us from the lights last week... My brother's XR6T pulled away from him at a rate of knots... it was embarrasing. Although, for the few seconds I could hear the VE it sounded sweet!

I don't think it is really 370kws... I think it's just a stock 307kw R8 with a 370 badge :bawl:yep...evoke.
i think he got the exhaust done and they said to him its got now 370kw at the engine...lol...so he switched the numbers.

yeah well like i said if he has 370kw at the engine then i am pushing near on 400kw at the engine coz he was left behind...way behind :lol:
i would like love to line him up...as the drags where its totally legal ofcourse. poor guy believes he has all that power... :lmao:
think he needs it tuned properly so it doesnt spit black smoke first :stick:

[Mungrel]

think he needs it tuned properly so it doesnt spit black smoke first :stick:

Shouldn't be too much of a problem. You'll be in front of him wont ya? :lol: