Holdens True Ve Muscle Car

[LS1MUMBO]

Hi, hope this doesn't stur up to much trouble so here goes. I've always had SS commodores and over the last few years many people have asked me why if I'm going to spend the money why don't I buy a HSV rather than an SS?? I've always been of the opinion that the SS is the true modern Holden muscle car made by Holden in the Holden factory! not a base model V8 Commodore with a heap of spoilers added by some dude in Clayton. It's not the money either I just believe the SS is a true Holden muscle car made at Holden.

[fleety77]

no argument here mate, still love the hsv's though

[Titanium]

Current HSV's use the Calais as the donor vehicle, hardly a "base model" Holden.

Guess a HSV is what a SS should have been in the first place.

But they still both rock!

PS: Spoilers are not the only difference ...... research some more man.

[shane W Z]

Hi, hope this doesn't stur up to much trouble so here goes. I've always had SS commodores and over the last few years many people have asked me why if I'm going to spend the money why don't I buy a HSV rather than an SS?? I've always been of the opinion that the SS is the true modern Holden muscle car made by Holden in the Holden factory! not a base model V8 Commodore with a heap of spoilers added by some dude in Clayton. It's not the money either I just believe the SS is a true Holden muscle car made at Holden.

That's Always been my theory.

[fleety77]

Current HSV's use the Calais as the donor vehicle, hardly a "base model" Holden.

Guess a HSV is what a SS should have been in the first place.

But they still both rock!

PS: Spoilers are not the only difference ...... research some more man.

im saying he would know that, he has owned many holdens!!!!! although he does say a ''base model commodore""....... well i hope he does..............

[Holden Man]

I know it's gone but I reckon the SV8 was the true muscle car ( just a big powerful engine in basic sedan = fast )

I'd still rate the GTS as the "HALO" car though.

[LS1MUMBO]

Great to hear others agree, I know they have more than spoilers just didn't want to crap on to much. Very interesting to hear what others have to say though...

[fleety77]

Great to hear others agree, I know they have more than spoilers just didn't want to crap on to much. Very interesting to hear what others have to say though...

i understood what ya meant

[HSVDKB]

Hi, hope this doesn't stur up to much trouble so here goes. I've always had SS commodores and over the last few years many people have asked me why if I'm going to spend the money why don't I buy a HSV rather than an SS?? I've always been of the opinion that the SS is the true modern Holden muscle car made by Holden in the Holden factory! not a base model V8 Commodore with a heap of spoilers added by some dude in Clayton. It's not the money either I just believe the SS is a true Holden muscle car made at Holden.

I have owned examples of both and don't look at it like you. I regard them all as variants of the same wonderful family of vehicles. I'm equally impressed with some guy posting up his brand new VE SS as someone showing us their new Eseries HSV GTS :)

[fleety77]

hes not sayin anything is better its just in his opinion the ss is australias true muscle car...........it goes without sayin there both fantastic!!!

[Pickles]

Hi, hope this doesn't stur up to much trouble so here goes. I've always had SS commodores and over the last few years many people have asked me why if I'm going to spend the money why don't I buy a HSV rather than an SS?? I've always been of the opinion that the SS is the true modern Holden muscle car made by Holden in the Holden factory! not a base model V8 Commodore with a heap of spoilers added by some dude in Clayton. It's not the money either I just believe the SS is a true Holden muscle car made at Holden.

Yep, Well the SSV's a great car no doubt, but the E Series HSV is not just "a heap of spoilers"! Just one aspect is the brakes- a MASSIVE improvement-but really, the HSV is totally re-engineered.
If they're not your "cup of tea" that's fine, but they've got to be good to be better than the SS/SSV,--and they are--if they weren't, nobody would pay the extra dollars, & nobody would buy them.--The product has its faults, I know, but everyone I know with an E Series is absolutely wrapped in it.
Cheers, Pickles.

[fleety77]

can anyone read?? b4 anyone else posts its not a debate it was a personal opinion WHAT HE FEELS REPRESENTS AUSSIE MUSCLE and who does not know the hsv extras come on.............:)

[LS1MUMBO]

can anyone read?? b4 anyone else posts its not a debate it was a personal opinion WHAT HE FEELS REPRESENTS AUSSIE MUSCLE and who does not know the hsv extras come on.............:)

Thats right, I'm not saying ones better than the other I'm just saying I thinks the SS is a true Holden muscle car as its made at Holden by Holden and driven off the Holden production line which in my opinion makes it a true Holden muscle car....:)

[smoov GTS]

O.K. it's his opinion. But if anything, it's the SS that is just a base commodore with a spoiler and a few extra bits. Nothing wrong with that, but the current HSV is in another league altogether.

[fleety77]

ha ha no argument from me!! lol i guess your pretty right!!

[Gonadman2]

O.K. it's his opinion. But if anything, it's the SS that is just a base commodore with a spoiler and a few extra bits. Nothing wrong with that, but the current HSV is in another league altogether.

Is it really? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a GTS over my lil' SS, but from most of the magazine reports I have read - they don't represent the giant leap HSV would have you believe. I'm sure the monster brakes come into their own after 10 laps or so at your favourite track, and the slightly firmer suspension would account for a few tenths as well, but in the hands of your average everyday driver I think the real difference would be stuff all.

Disclaimer: I haven't got any magazines in front of me (PCOTY, BFYB anyone?) so if someone wants to post some numbers up that would be cool.

[GJ227]

I think one is a True Holden Muscle car and one is a True HSV Muscle car, they both use the same base and both have different target markets and agenda's, regardless we all love them both.

GJ227

[HSV Manta]

Surely you wouldn't call a Commodore or derivatives (other than Monaro...and only just) a muscle car.

A muscle car is a mid size car (generally a coupe) with a big block.

The closest Oz ever got was the HK/HT/HG/HQ coupe's....and that era defined muscle cars given what the yanks were doing at around the same time with their camaro's, mustangs, chargers etc etc :)

[Snapper]

O.K. it's his opinion. But if anything, it's the SS that is just a base commodore with a spoiler and a few extra bits. Nothing wrong with that, but the current HSV is in another league altogether.

Yep, I have to agree there. Having driven both I know which one I preferred. Bring a smile to my face every time I drive it.

[NickS]

Is it really? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a GTS over my lil' SS, but from most of the magazine reports I have read - they don't represent the giant leap HSV would have you believe. I'm sure the monster brakes come into their own after 10 laps or so at your favourite track ...

Don't believe everything you read ... in terms of performance there is bugger all in it, in terms of interior ... HSV has it all over Holden (it's all in the detail).

As for the brakes ... you would stick the Holden in the wall in less than 5 laps because you have nothing left, the HSV will go all day. Not only that, you can notice it on the road ... BIG TIME. The difference in brakes is not something you will only notice on the track, anyone that says otherwise is only saying so because they can't afford the upgrade and are trying to make themselves feel better.

My wife drives an E Series GTS and isn't too technical when it comes to cars, she had my SS-V yesterday and she rang me 5 minutes after she left home because she thought there was something wrong with the brakes ... that's how big the difference is !!!

I'm sticking some HSV brakes onto my SS-V this weekend ... can't wait.

[fleety77]

nicks i knew u would have a say in this thread now its kind of turned hsv v the commodore, u are one who can truly comment on any difference!! did your wife choose the gts??

[NickS]

nicks i knew u would have a say in this thread now its kind of turned hsv v the commodore, u are one who can truly comment on any difference!! did your wife choose the gts??

Basically ... yes.

We had the Avalanche but we weren't really using the wagon space anymore as we had moved on from prams & high chairs with the kids. We always intended to get a new HSV but didn't know which one we would choose as we hadn't seen anything yet. When they released the new E Series she decided straight away that she wanted the GTS in Evoke and an order was placed less than a week after they where released.

She loves it ...

[fleety77]

lucky lady.....

[Caprice270]

HSV certainly produce superior cars but the SS represents far more value IMO, especially at the moment because HSV have failed to deliver a second tier motor to lead the range.

Does value make a "True VE muscle car"? If so, then you are correct to choose the SS, but on any other level HSV is superior.

But then you go to get your cheque book to buy the GTS and realise your not too far off from buying a BMW 335i coupe for that money, that has far better resale and has a size and weight befitting a sports car. And so you realise its time to grow up.

Maybe then the Clubby is the performance king. Who cares, everyone can choose what car they like.

[emg]

so how does the word "muscle" and "euro styling" "watch out bmw" etc meet in the end? it's either one or the other really.

[sv285]

If you have the cash.... then HSV.... no cash ss, thats how i see it. example 10 000 ss on the rd 1 000 hsv.

[RED R8]

The Xy falcon is no more of a Ford muscle car than the Xy GT HO.

The SS is a holden Muscle car and the HSV is a holden muscle car with more simple.

[Holden Man]

so how does the word "muscle" and "euro styling" "watch out bmw" etc meet in the end? it's either one or the other really.

You can have both "MUSCLE" and "EUROPEAN STYLING"

The germans are good at it >

AUDI RS series

BMW M cars

Mercedes AMG series


(Toyota / world's #1 car maker / should maybe take note)

[Caprice270]

so how does the word "muscle" and "euro styling" "watch out bmw" etc meet in the end? it's either one or the other really.

Good point...Both Holden and HSV have pushed their Euro credentials. Pontiac did a great job advertising the GTO. Go on youtube and check out the ad where the GTO pulls up at the lights and all you can hear is the US-spec exhaust at idle and then taking off. MAGIC. No rubbish Euro comparisons.

[NickS]

But then you go to get your cheque book to buy the GTS and realise your not too far off from buying a BMW 335i coupe for that money, that has far better resale and has a size and weight befitting a sports car. And so you realise its time to grow up.

Hardly ... $35,000 isn't exactly close ... and that's on list price.

I've seen my old man buy several BMWs and they always end up significantly higher than list. I reckon you would be lucky to get away in a 335i for much under $120K (probably more), compared to under $80K for a GTS.

Not to mention the 335i Coupe has half the room of a GTS, which makes sense in a sports car, but not in sports car that is designed to carry a family comfortably.

Don't get me wrong, I reckon the 335i Coupe is an incredible car, but it's a fairly useless comparison with a GTS.

[gasguz]

I have 1 of each ( SS & R8) VX though, but much the same as I bought them new & at the time they were the latest on the market. I tend to agree that the SS is the "muscle car" of the Holden factory made cars & dont have a problem saying so.

To those saying that the SS starts as a base commo, so be it. But lets not forget that it was not that long ago that the GTS was based on the exec. Top of the range HSV with no climate?? but anyway they are both great makes of cars & I am happy to own them & the future ones that come my way.


Lets not turn this into a big HSV v Holden competition as others have mentioned, as this was not what the original thread starter had in mind when the question was asked. Start a new thread if you feel the need to go down that path.

Also SS brakes are fine for everyday normal driving, my HSV Premiums on the R8 are 100 times better & sometimes when hit hard enough you wonder if the car is going to flip over on its roof (after you have tucked your eyeballs back in that is) but to be honest the SS stops just fine also.

They both have V8 engines so they cant be that bad :)

He asked for opinions only & I have given mine only, others will disagree but thats what makes us all different.

Cheers

[emg]

You can have both "MUSCLE" and "EUROPEAN STYLING"

The germans are good at it >

AUDI RS series

BMW M cars

Mercedes AMG series


(Toyota / world's #1 car maker / should maybe take note)



I wouldn't exactly call those German cars "muscle" cars... more of a wolf in sheeps clothing and I suppose that's what makes them so appealing. Slight aggression with bigger wheels, brakes and flared guards etc. You don't see huge tacky spoilers and body kits on these Euro sports cars. These extra bits is what makes "muscle" cars out of Holden and Ford.

[mustanger]

Hi, hope this doesn't stur up to much trouble so here goes. I've always had SS commodores and over the last few years many people have asked me why if I'm going to spend the money why don't I buy a HSV rather than an SS?? I've always been of the opinion that the SS is the true modern Holden muscle car made by Holden in the Holden factory! not a base model V8 Commodore with a heap of spoilers added by some dude in Clayton. It's not the money either I just believe the SS is a true Holden muscle car made at Holden.



If the SS is Holdens True Muscle Car, what is the HSV then?Your arguement does not make sense. They are both muscle cars in some respect, meaning big V8s with rear wheel drive and bucketloads of power.

I know that the SS is good value for money but that doesn`t mean that the HSV is not a true Aussie musclecar .

[Jac001]

Surely you wouldn't call a Commodore or derivatives (other than Monaro...and only just) a muscle car.

A muscle car is a mid size car (generally a coupe) with a big block.

The closest Oz ever got was the HK/HT/HG/HQ coupe's....and that era defined muscle cars given what the yanks were doing at around the same time with their camaro's, mustangs, chargers etc etc :)

I have to agree, when i hear the term "muscle cars" i tend to think of cars built in the 60's - 70's rather than modern cars.

[iloveholden]

IMO i reckon the original statement is wrong. You shouldn't try and separate Holden and HSV too much, so much so, you make them sound like major rivals such as Holden and Ford. I think that both are great though if you had enough money for a GTS and your a car freak like most of us (also there are no other varibles involved) you would go for the GTS rather than save money and just buy an SS-V.

Although the SS-V is a great car...The HSV GTS is the King...and if ur all for luxury you would buy the Senator/Grange.

[Caprice270]

IMO i reckon the original statement is wrong. You shouldn't try and separate Holden and HSV too much, so much so, you make them sound like major rivals such as Holden and Ford. I think that both are great though if you had enough money for a GTS and your a car freak like most of us (also there are no other varibles involved) you would go for the GTS rather than save money and just buy an SS-V.

Although the SS-V is a great car...The HSV GTS is the King...and if ur all for luxury you would buy the Senator/Grange.

The young bloke has got it spot on.

[iloveholden]

The young bloke has got it spot on.

haha thanks mate...by the way nice car! :bow:

[fleety77]

settle settle it was just his own personal opinion as to what aussie muscle meant to him guys......why start a shit fight, obviously the gts is in a different league...but the ss for him means aussie muscle can u not respect that...

[VY18s]

Who cares guys?

The SS is the top of the line performnce car for Holden, and if you want that little bit more go for the HSV. Either way I would give both of my nuts too own a SSV or a HSV variant. Be happy we have such cheap performance offerings.

Don't compare the 2 like they're competitors.

That's what Ford/FPV is for.

Everyone knows Holden/HSV V8s crap on Ford/FPV.

[iloveholden]

settle settle it was just his own personal opinion as to what aussie muscle meant to him guys......why start a shit fight, obviously the gts is in a different league...but the ss for him means aussie muscle can u not respect that...

I wasn't trying to start a fight, thats if you were refering to me. I just expressed my opinion, as did the starter of this thread did.

"Don't compare the 2 like they're competitors.

That's what Ford/FPV is for.

Everyone knows Holden/HSV V8s crap on Ford/FPV."

Yer exactly what i was gettin at. Good point, and i think thats the main point.

[LS1MUMBO]

Great work guys heaps of great feedback and the passion is pouring out of my PC , thread wasn't designed to be a HSV v SS just my thoughts on what I consider to be Holdens lastest muscle car and as I said its not about how much money we have, I went for a true factory built Holden muscle car straight off the Holden production line and I'm wrapped with my purchase was well worth it. We all love our Holdens no matter what shape or form so drive and smile....

[WAVESS]

Surely you wouldn't call a Commodore or derivatives (other than Monaro...and only just) a muscle car.

A muscle car is a mid size car (generally a coupe) with a big block.

The closest Oz ever got was the HK/HT/HG/HQ coupe's....and that era defined muscle cars given what the yanks were doing at around the same time with their camaro's, mustangs, chargers etc etc :)

I thought that the granddaddy of "muscle cars" was the Pontiac GTO, a LARGE 2 door with a big engine (not neccessarily a B/B) like chevelles, challengers etc and mustangs, chargers etc came under the unofficial "Pony" car tag in the states as they were smaller with "Euro" styling and "cough cough" handling.

Also would you not call an XW,Y,A,B,C Gt a muscle car (try parking one in a tight space), 4 doors and a small block.:confused:

I also agree with the main point of the thread, but both are great cars, whatever "floats the boat".:)

[payaya]

Never have I heard a person dislike a car because its not straight off the production line.

Is your car stock? What was your previous car? Your VE and previous stock? Better be, otherwise it wont be a true Holden motor vehicle. Not straight off the production line.

What happens when your car is in an accident? Replacing the bumpers means its not a true Holden anymore.

:spew:


If the SS is Holdens True Muscle Car, what is the HSV then?Your arguement does not make sense. They are both muscle cars in some respect, meaning big V8s with rear wheel drive and bucketloads of power.

I know that the SS is good value for money but that doesn`t mean that the HSV is not a true Aussie musclecar .

A fake muscle car??? :spew:

hahah im with you!

[Marco]

I agree that the SS is Holden's muscle car in this day and age, but that's not to take anything away from the HSV product, which of course is Holden's muscle car with improvements. Personally I'm more than happy with the performance and looks of the SS but if you want more then HSV is the way to go, and has been for the past 20 years.

[LS1MUMBO]

Never have I heard a person dislike a car because its not straight off the production line.

Is your car stock? What was your previous car? Your VE and previous stock? Better be, otherwise it wont be a true Holden motor vehicle. Not straight off the production line.

What happens when your car is in an accident? Replacing the bumpers means its not a true Holden anymore.


Without being rude you have missed my point!!! Have another read.. And by the way all my cars are stock and I've loved them all as I do most performance cars..

[Boom]

My 2c.

SS and SSV are the true Holden factory muscle cars.
HSV are remanufactured in a sense, and not true Holden factory cars, although they are supported by the factory.
Would love to have been able to afford to go HSV, but in my opinion, I couldnt see the value for money at the time.
In the end they are both great cars and I do love the different styling of the HSVs, even if the tail lights look similar to a Hyundai.

[LS1MUMBO]

My 2c.

SS and SSV are the true Holden factory muscle cars.
HSV are remanufactured in a sense, and not true Holden factory cars, although they are supported by the factory.
Would love to have been able to afford to go HSV, but in my opinion, I couldnt see the value for money at the time.
In the end they are both great cars and I do love the different styling of the HSVs, even if the tail lights look similar to a Hyundai.


Thats exactly my point!!! Well said...

[payaya]

Without being rude you have missed my point!!! Have another read.. And by the way all my cars are stock and I've loved them all as I do most performance cars..

Yep dont get it. :soap:

[AFAR]

You guys are all wrong.
Any SS or HSV varaient is a FAMILY CAR/Work Utility vehical.

New age 4 door commodores = muscle?
You're only kidding yourselves.

Im not saying you cant get good numbers out of them or have a lack of fun in them. However at the end of the day, these cars are just that.

[Danv8]

Muscle car or not there is no right or wrong answers really.

[Marco]

You guys are all wrong.
Any SS or HSV varaient is a FAMILY CAR/Work Utility vehical.

New age 4 door commodores = muscle?
You're only kidding yourselves.


How are they not the muscle cars of the modern era? The classic muscle cars of the 60s and 70s - especially Aussie muscle cars - were largely based on the family cars of the day, just like today's muscle cars are. They've evolved into something more sophisticated, but it is still the same basic idea.

[macca33]

I think I'm seeing where AFAR is coming from.

Today you'd look to the Corvette and possibly (to a lesser extent) the Camaro as 'muscle cars' in the old sense, as they are designed to be modern muscle cars.

The Commodores are designed as passenger cars with variants that go quick and handle well and that is often where their failures as complete performance vehicles lie.

They are great passenger cars and have significant ability and performance/handling to make them very good in that department, but they are not 'muscle cars' per se.

I am no expert - far from it - but I do agree that GMH make a great car in the Commodore, because it does manage to provide vehicle variants within the same family that satisfy a vast spectrum of people, from families, through to performance car enthusiasts.

As far as the VE goes, I dunno about the 'true' muscle car. The SS/SS-V are the Holden iteration and great value (as seen in recent 'Bang for Buck' results) and HSV takes it a little further again, at a cost.

Cheers,

Macca

[Boom]

OK macca I can see where you are coming from. Depends on what your definition of muscle car is I guess. Personally I dont equate the american cars to the subject of this thread, but will not for the life of me say they are not muscle cars.
Lets look at it in terms of Australian Muscle Cars. The GT Falcons, XU1 Toranas, SLR 5000 Toranas, Monaros and Chargers can all be classified as Australian Muscle Cars. These were all based on the base line production garden variety cars.
The VE SS and SSV share the same heritage as the above. So I think they qualify.
Will they become classic Australian Muscle Cars as those above? I somehow doubt it.

[Wingnut]

You are all wrong......

The CAMIRA is always going to be regarded as Holdens true muscle car. How many people have built huge bulging muscles pushing one of these cars off the road.:eyes:

Infact, I could re badge a Camira as a BANANA BENDER 3000 and sell it on Danoz direct for 6 easy payments of $39.95 plus postage. We could all see results in as little as 5 Km's per day.:p

[Boom]

Funny man Wingnut! :rofl:

[fleety77]

PLEASE AFAR its muscle.............JUST WHAT BOOM SAID, and what cause they not made with steel and a carby and dont have stripes they not muscle......................??? PLEASE

[LS1MUMBO]

Good to hear alot of People agree with me and what the thread was intended to find out. At the end of the day it's personnel choice weather it be the money you have to spend or what you believe to be a true Holden Muscle car, as I've stated I believe:

SS=Factory Holden Muscle....

HSV=After market Muscle backed by Factory Holden...


Both are great cars and HSV is a brillant car but it's not a true factory car is it?????

[AFAR]

PLEASE AFAR its muscle.............JUST WHAT BOOM SAID, and what cause they not made with steel and a carby and dont have stripes they not muscle......................??? PLEASE

As i said.
They are primarily family(passanger)/utility vehicals.

I would class the monaro as an aussie 'muscle car'. I just cant do that with the commodore to be honest.

[fleety77]

:confused:..............i disagree but i respect your point of view.

[zorro]

I'm happy to sit in a corner and say that any of the current crop of holden/ford could be even remotely close being called a muscle car.

my 2c

[Boom]

As i said.
They are primarily family(passanger)/utility vehicals.

I would class the monaro as an aussie 'muscle car'. I just cant do that with the commodore to be honest.

And what of the 6 cylinder variants of the Monaro? Are they too muscle cars?

[AFAR]

And what of the 6 cylinder variants of the Monaro? Are they too muscle cars?

Eh. I compeltly forgot about the 6 cylinder limping horse version/s :D.

[SharifE]

Interesting point of view mate. But I believe that, to represent the epitomy of the Aussie muscle car, it must have the highest KW output..Call me old fashion but 307 is the number now.

[gasguz]

As i said.
They are primarily family(passanger)/utility vehicals.

I would class the monaro as an aussie 'muscle car'. I just cant do that with the commodore to be honest.

But the Monaro is & has always been a 2 door version of the 4 door car. Does losing 2 doors give it muscle? The latest being a 2 door commodore

This thread has gone pretty wacky

[fleety77]

yeah im over it.........................im out

[LS1MUMBO]

Been fun though, interesting views.....

Read somewhere that the SS & SSV is actually 285kw not 270kw like Holden told us...And due to the weight the SS not SSV in quicker than the HSV 307kw:deal: