Opinions on buying a LS1 with over 200,000 Kms?

[R8tourer]

Hi Guys,

Haven't posted on here much, but finally looking into purchasing a VTII or VX LS1 wagon.

I don't know a whole lot, so take it easy on me alright!! I am probably looking to spend around 13k so i have found a few okay deals but obviously at that price the km's are always higher than the more expensive ones.

I have a few questions regarding kilometers:

Is over 200,000 kms going to be an endless list of engine/drivetrain problems etc and/or higher maintenance than usual from anyones experience/knowledge?

I have found quite a few nice deals around the 13k mark, some with 170,000 kms even, which would be better right if its going to make much of a difference.

I understand its better to know the history of the type of driving the car has done too, but sometimes you can't believe what a dealer says if thats where the car is for sale.

I will be using the car for pretty much only highway km's as I am moving to bathurst soon, so mostly travelling between there and the blue mountains.

Anything else you guys think i should know please post up, would love to hear it - all ears!

Thanks


Matt

[wagnman]

I wouldnt buy something over 200000 k's unless I could pick it up cheep and have enough cash left over for an engine re-build, new clutch, cooling system etc. I could be wrong (usually am I fear LOL!).

Good luck mate.

[VX2VESS]

over 200 depends if hwy k's mostly, if its been looked after and what had already been replaced. could have a fresh motor etc already, that would be ok.

if nothings been replaced could be still ok for a while but nothing lasts forever.

[R8tourer]

Thanks for replies so far... anyone know how much a rebuild is just to get an idea? Thanx :)

[markone2]

Old BBB1 ( 1999WH Statesman ( that was running consistent 12.5's unopened ) had covered a leisurely 212,000 Ks when 1st purchesed.....now since sold on to new owner 6 months past and by all reports has not missed beat..........nor did it do so with us when playing at Willowbank over the winter months ..with all 218 real RWKW :)

Was a one owner vehicle with FULL Holden dealer service book that gave one a nice fuzzy glow of reassurance...however as the good folk at PT quickly discovered ,the original spark plugs still resident in the trusty LS1 ,put that particular Holden Dealers workshop attitude into a whole new demension...North side of Brissy

[joeboss]

The thing I would be worried about is the condition of the interior and things like that, not the motor.

[Caprice270]

Everything is worth worrying about...make sure its damn cheap. My bro's 2002 WH Statesman had 130,000km on it and had to have the engine freshened up. Its all good now though.

[R8tourer]

Old BBB1 ( 1999WH Statesman ( that was running consistent 12.5's unopened ) had covered a leisurely 212,000 Ks when 1st purchesed.....now since sold on to new owner 6 months past and by all reports has not missed beat..........nor did it do so with us when playing at Willowbank over the winter months ..with all 218 real RWKW :)

Was a one owner vehicle with FULL Holden dealer service book that gave one a nice fuzzy glow of reassurance...however as the good folk at PT quickly discovered ,the original spark plugs still resident in the trusty LS1 ,put that particular Holden Dealers workshop attitude into a whole new demension...North side of Brissy

Sounds like it was a well looked after car mate, which is very important if your looking at buying some with higher than average km's.


Everything is worth worrying about...make sure its damn cheap. My bro's 2002 WH Statesman had 130,000km on it and had to have the engine freshened up. Its all good now though.

What exactly was it doing and what is involved in the engine being "freshened up"?

Just trying to learn as much as i can as of course it will help when I look/test drive the cars I am interested in.

Cheers :)

[TheRealMadMax]

Hey Phatwagon,

It really doesn't matter how many K's the car has. The important things to look for are the overall condition of the vehicle. E.g. all electrics working as intended, motor quiet (not modded!), gear shifts are smooth - reverse is not difficult to select (if M6), shift changes are acceptable... Also check the paint thoroughly and pop the boot/bonet and doors looking for signs of repair jobs (e.g. slightly differing colours in paint, or different bolts holding panels/hinges in place...). You want to avoid a car that has had any sort of panel work (often structural issues go unrepaired/dodgied up).

Get it checked out by NRMA or a reputable mechanic. Some LS1's are rebuilt after 10-15thousand K's (or less), others havn't been touched in over 200thousand K's, so it is different for each engine. Most people agree that piston slap is obvious early in an engines life, however mine developed a similar problem (sticking Gudgeon Pin) at 130thousand K's.

If a ford 6 cylinder can do over 1million kays (ask your next cabbie) with little maintainence, then I'm sure an LS1 can too.

Whilst I hate dealers (sorry!), it might be a good idea to see what they have on offer, as they will have to provide a 3 month statutory warranty (in QLD anyway), and you can choose an extended warranty also. I did this and it has helped heaps (new radiator, clutch, bottom end rebuild and $2500 towards rebuilt g'box). Try for a reputable dealer (we have Zupp's and Motoramma..etc. in QLD).

Good luck with finding your Phatwagon~!


Sounds like it was a well looked after car mate, which is very important if your looking at buying some with higher than average km's.



What exactly was it doing and what is involved in the engine being "freshened up"?

Just trying to learn as much as i can as of course it will help when I look/test drive the cars I am interested in.

Cheers :)

Freshen up usually involves new pistons and rings/gudgeons. (to the best of my knowledge)

[R8tourer]

Hey Phatwagon,

It really doesn't matter how many K's the car has. The important things to look for are the overall condition of the vehicle. E.g. all electrics working as intended, motor quiet (not modded!), gear shifts are smooth - reverse is not difficult to select (if M6), shift changes are acceptable... Also check the paint thoroughly and pop the boot/bonet and doors looking for signs of repair jobs (e.g. slightly differing colours in paint, or different bolts holding panels/hinges in place...). You want to avoid a car that has had any sort of panel work (often structural issues go unrepaired/dodgied up).

Get it checked out by NRMA or a reputable mechanic. Some LS1's are rebuilt after 10-15thousand K's (or less), others havn't been touched in over 200thousand K's, so it is different for each engine. Most people agree that piston slap is obvious early in an engines life, however mine developed a similar problem (sticking Gudgeon Pin) at 130thousand K's.

If a ford 6 cylinder can do over 1million kays (ask your next cabbie) with little maintainence, then I'm sure an LS1 can too.

Whilst I hate dealers (sorry!), it might be a good idea to see what they have on offer, as they will have to provide a 3 month statutory warranty (in QLD anyway), and you can choose an extended warranty also. I did this and it has helped heaps (new radiator, clutch, bottom end rebuild and $2500 towards rebuilt g'box). Try for a reputable dealer (we have Zupp's and Motoramma..etc. in QLD).

Good luck with finding your Phatwagon~!



Freshen up usually involves new pistons and rings/gudgeons. (to the best of my knowledge)
Thanks very much for that post! Very helpful

The one I have found is from a dealer with 12 months warranty. I am having a look @ it tomorrow, VTII berlina wagon with all options. Will keep all the those suggestions in mind and see how i go, thanks very much!

[Wonky]

There are guys on here with cars (VHA/VHB etc) that have clocked up over 500,000km with nary a problem. However, as with taxis etc their miles are almost all racked up when the engine oil is hot i.e. they do very few, if any, short trips which is one killer on a motor.

A car with high mileage but mainly highway/freeway kms will typically be a much better bet than a similar mileage one that wasn't mainly highway kms.

[Vulture]

Crate LS1s are so damn cheap, who cares?

[R8tourer]

There are guys on here with cars (VHA/VHB etc) that have clocked up over 500,000km with nary a problem. However, as with taxis etc their miles are almost all racked up when the engine oil is hot i.e. they do very few, if any, short trips which is one killer on a motor.

A car with high mileage but mainly highway/freeway kms will typically be a much better bet than a similar mileage one that wasn't mainly highway kms.
Agree with you :)


Crate LS1s are so damn cheap, who cares?

How much?

[mickeyVX350]

wow... i was always told that 300,000 was "just ran in" on a v8!

[markone2]

Hey Phatwagon,

It really doesn't matter how many K's the car has. The important things to look for are the overall condition of the vehicle. E.g. all electrics working as intended, motor quiet (not modded!), gear shifts are smooth - reverse is not difficult to select (if M6), shift changes are acceptable... Also check the paint thoroughly and pop the boot/bonet and doors looking for signs of repair jobs (e.g. slightly differing colours in paint, or different bolts holding panels/hinges in place...). You want to avoid a car that has had any sort of panel work (often structural issues go unrepaired/dodgied up).

Get it checked out by NRMA or a reputable mechanic. Some LS1's are rebuilt after 10-15thousand K's (or less), others havn't been touched in over 200thousand K's, so it is different for each engine. Most people agree that piston slap is obvious early in an engines life, however mine developed a similar problem (sticking Gudgeon Pin) at 130thousand K's.

If a ford 6 cylinder can do over 1million kays (ask your next cabbie) with little maintainence, then I'm sure an LS1 can too.

Whilst I hate dealers (sorry!), it might be a good idea to see what they have on offer, as they will have to provide a 3 month statutory warranty (in QLD anyway), and you can choose an extended warranty also. I did this and it has helped heaps (new radiator, clutch, bottom end rebuild and $2500 towards rebuilt g'box). Try for a reputable dealer (we have Zupp's and Motoramma..etc. in QLD).





:teach: Ist paragraph I'll whole heartily concur with :)...the remainder :confused:

Your buying an LS1....have it inspected by some-one who lives breaths LS1's 24x7....any of the forum sponsors here will do a far better job than you'll ever get for your $200 plus *rack off* inspection advising how many stone chips the vehicle has and to watch for none existent oil leaks..:bow:

Holden Dealerships.......by all means hand over your hard earned for a 3K yard load, plus salesman's commission plus plus plus plus.......just on the QT ....at one of the forementioned yards there recently resided not long past ,a 2000 plate WH Gen111 done 90K......$20995 price tag.......how do I know the vehicle..:) damn near purchased it myself for $10600 at Dealer auction just 3 weeks prior ...

Extended warranty....?....I think the $2500 *TOWARDS* a *REBUILT* A4 just about sums up there worth to a tee :)....having just replaced the big Caprices gearbox at $1450 ALL UP ....BRAND NEW CRATE A4 ex Holden...yep ..I've included fitting...makes yer think twice before traveling the well beaten school teacher pathway too used car land .

Choose the right car ,might take you a little while,but they are out there , have it inspected by a forum sponsor and as touched on by joeboss....interior condition can give an excellent insight into the previous owners care....or lack of such towards the remainder of the car...............in my somewhat limited used car buying experience :diddy:

and one last comment....right now Redbook pricing is pretty damn accurate on VT / VU / VY pricing...regreatably for us car owners.:bawl:.use it to your advantage..

[VYBerlinaV8]

I figure that condition of a vehicle is more important than the kilometres. If a vehicle has been well looked after, and has evidence of good servicing, you'll obviously be a lot better off than where the owner has just driven it and done nothing.

That said, I reckon if you get a good LS1 (ie no piston slap, etc), the rest of the car is likely to cause more trouble than the engine itself. Still, if you can buy it cheap, and don't plan to keep it forever, does it matter?

I bought my LS1 brand new 4 and a half years ago, and I only have 66,000 on the clock. Maybe I need to get out more. I even service it every 6 months regardless of kms travelled (last 3 services were only about 4,000km apart).

[Swordie]

As others have said buy on condition, look for service history and get someone with expertise to check the car out. Do all that and the risk of buying a dud are reduced.

I would keep a couple of hundred spare to retro fit the back wheel braces fitted to the VXII onwards. The car willl handle better and tyre wear will be reduced. Look at the back wheels to see if the inner tyre is wearing quicker.

The VT series is a nice shape, comfortable drive and will carry more that the vast majority of cars.

[eldan89]

Hey phatwagon, I recently looked at vehicles with 200,000k's + on the clock for myself and quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth it. Depending on the vehicle and what needed replacing it worked out cheaper to wait and save for something with less k's. This is especially true if you don't intend on keeping the vehicle for a long time, because when it comes to sale time a car with high k's is a car with high k's, no matter how much money has been spent fixing it.

But if you can find something that doesn't need parts changed, and you can get rid of it before the expenses pile in. Go for it!

[R8tourer]

Thanks for all the replies... alot to take into account and alot of opinions vary.
I will be doing alot of kms it seems so maybe its safer to go lower kms in the first place... hmmm.

markone2: redbook always seems cheaper than what people are selling the LS1 VT/VX's for, so maybe I should hold it up to some of the sellers??

1999 HOLDEN COMMODORE

VT II Berlina Wagon 4dr Auto 4sp 5.7i
Prices based on km 120,000 - 200,000
Trade in price guide* $6,500 - $7,900
National average price - private sale* $8,700 - $10,400

2000 HOLDEN BERLINA

VX Wagon 4dr Auto 4sp 5.7i
Prices based on km 110,000 - 180,000
Trade in price guide* $7,700 - $9,200
National average price - private sale* $10,100 - $11,900

I wish they were that cheap!! I haven't seen any at all around that price over the last 3 months of research.

Im just going to post up the link here to the car i was looking @ as im in no rush anyway, unless i get work sooner than i expected.

Click Here! (http://www.autotrader.com.au/iteminfo/adnumber_W54208105317_kw_wagon_loc_locRZSQregtAVSC distRZSQAVSCstateRZSQ2AVSCregRZSQ_maxp_13000_minp_ 12000_off_3_sect_Automotive_sort_otRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQ SearchDisplayPriorityIndAVSCotRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQFirst Published_sqt_0_srchby_minyrRZSQ1999AVSCmaxyrRZSQ2 001AVSCmmbsRZSQMakeAVSCsrchbyRZSQmkmdlAVSCmkdlsRZS QHolden_stpg_1_subs_Used+Cars_)

[eldan89]

I hate to sound like the bearer of bad news... but that car has a towbar, thats something i was always told to avoid because people often tow big heavy items which creates extra stress on the car.

[markone2]

I hate to sound like the bearer of bad news... but that car has a towbar, thats something i was always told to avoid because people often tow big heavy items which creates extra stress on the car.



My previous and current crop of VX/ VY's read 7..all came equipped with the big Haymen Reece.....in fact if anyones chasing the odd factory HD towbar..look no further.......average Ks....160,000...why :confused: I like buying ex country stock....bodes well imho




markone2: redbook always seems cheaper than what people are selling the LS1 VT/VX's for, so maybe I should hold it up to some of the sellers??



:idea: Your looking at *ASKING* prices...not selling prices...which is a figure many hold close to there chests, even after the dealings done...and yes...use the Redbook figures........its a buyers paradise atm in the used car world and 90% of car sellers are 100% fully aware of there cars TRUE wholesale value...even if they don't believe it :confused: hence the private sale and inflated figures your looking at right now..;)....remember its much easier for the seller to come down in price than up.......hence the high start ask...you need look no further than our own classifieds section on the forum to see what I mean

[VESSVFAN]

I am currently try to sell a car with exactly 200 k's, this car has done 100 klms a day on mainly freeway and has had the auto rebuilt but even my mechanic said it is in better condition than you would expect for the klms...............so you cannot totally use klms as an indication.
If a car is well kept and serviced regularly the klms are not as relevant, my VN had done 300 klm and was still in good condition qhen I sold it.

[TheRealMadMax]

:teach: Ist paragraph I'll whole heartily concur with :)...the remainder :confused:

Your buying an LS1....have it inspected by some-one who lives breaths LS1's 24x7....any of the forum sponsors here will do a far better job than you'll ever get for your $200 plus *rack off* inspection advising how many stone chips the vehicle has and to watch for none existent oil leaks..:bow:

Holden Dealerships.......by all means hand over your hard earned for a 3K yard load, plus salesman's commission plus plus plus plus.......just on the QT ....at one of the forementioned yards there recently resided not long past ,a 2000 plate WH Gen111 done 90K......$20995 price tag.......how do I know the vehicle..:) damn near purchased it myself for $10600 at Dealer auction just 3 weeks prior ...

Extended warranty....?....I think the $2500 *TOWARDS* a *REBUILT* A4 just about sums up there worth to a tee :)....having just replaced the big Caprices gearbox at $1450 ALL UP ....BRAND NEW CRATE A4 ex Holden...yep ..I've included fitting...makes yer think twice before traveling the well beaten school teacher pathway too used car land .

Choose the right car ,might take you a little while,but they are out there , have it inspected by a forum sponsor and as touched on by joeboss....interior condition can give an excellent insight into the previous owners care....or lack of such towards the remainder of the car...............in my somewhat limited used car buying experience :diddy:

and one last comment....right now Redbook pricing is pretty damn accurate on VT / VU / VY pricing...regreatably for us car owners.:bawl:.use it to your advantage..

Yeah, I concede a forum sponsor is a much better option for a pre-purchase inspection.

The box I had rebuilt was an M6, which for a new one is around $4500 and rebuild cost a little over the $2500 warranty (thanks to a Forum Sponsor). The A4 can be picked up for less than $2000 all day long, therefore, an extended warranty would completely cover the cost.

As for Dealers and warranties, I agree they try and rip you at every chance. If you are smart and play your cards right (E.g. read the damn warranty/legislation), you can always get what you rightfully deserve. Try asking a private seller to rebuild your engine, gearbox, replace radiator and clutch? Let me know how you go with that. If I had purchased my car privately (yes, inspection went 100% clear) I would have footed well over $6k on rebuilding aforementioned items. Clearly, with a high Km's vehicle this must be worth considering.

Incidentally, prior to the CV8 I had never used a dealer/warranty and I only did as I could only find the exact spec vehicle at a dealer.

[Swordie]

If a Mercedes can go for hundreds of thousands of Kms looked after I can’t see why a Holden can’t go for quite a few Kms if looked after.

It all comes down to running costs (interest, fuel, servicing, maintenance, insurance, depreciation and rego). It can be cheaper to run a low km later model depending on running costs equation.

I looked at a VX LS1 before buying my car. The Ecotec had plenty of usable power down low compared to the LS1. If you want to modify then that’s another story.

[MonoJoker]

Few observations from my experience:

Don't place much faith in the motoring organisation's inspection. They will go over it with a fine tooth comb and find all sorts of minor issues which the car yard will simply dismiss. By the time it comes to the inspection you'll already have had to put down a deposit so you risk losing your deposit and the inspection fee if you pull out of the deal based on a "fault" that the yard doesn't acknowledge.

Holden warranties... After seeing the debacle that my brother in law had with his "Holden Certified" VT wagon, be prepared to fix just about anything that goes wrong out of your own pocket. In short the "Certified" warranty didn't include wear and tear which just happened to appear soon after purchase and required new engine mounts, engine belts, shock absorbers, etc - all highlighted on the first service by the very dealer who sold the car.

200,000klms is not a lot on the LS1 but don't focus on the engine. You're buying a CAR not an engine. Buy the best CAR you can for your budget. There is a blue R8 VT Clubby on this very forum going strong currently around 250,000 kms on its original LS1 with quite a few mods and plenty of 1/4s under it's belt. While the owner has managed to break a few drivetrain bits the motor continues to impress.

Good luck with the purchase.

Cheers
LT.

[German Statesman]

I've known of oil pump failures on early LS1s as well as the well-known piston slap when 200k appears on the odometer. I heard of one that popped a head gasket when it ran too hot too, but any engine will do that and its not something an LS1 is known for.

The autos are crap, full stop. Rebuilt transmissions are sometimes needed around 150k, and thats a pretty common mileage for it. Some of the WK-WL Caprices doing corporate limo duty here in QLD have needed new radiators and cooling fan clutches around the 200k mark, but I haven't heard of premature diff failures and they are much better than the Fords in this respect.

Hope that helps.

Cheers

[Vulture]

Cooling fan clutches?

[calais-346]

If you think the stock autos are crap your kidding yourself, problem usually is people dont change there trans fluid.... Heat and old fluid is about the only 2 things that will kill the tranny imo

[twodads]

VX11 R8, M6. 207k's and going stronger than ever with no mods and only minor parts replaced as and when. Get the right car, treat her well and you'll live happily ever after :xmas:

[OLS108]

180k's just clocked over on my old Berlina, inc around 80 or so Runs at willowbank and my usual Drive style when driving along.
Thus far apart from a Radiator ( cracked side tank ) and a oil pressure switch i ain't laid a penny down on the old girl. I have been thinking of replacing the Water pump when i do a cam swap in next few weeks for a little extra insurance though. even the stalled Auto is holding up well thanks to frequent fluid changes and a trans cooler.

Dave

[German Statesman]

If you think the stock autos are crap your kidding yourself, problem usually is people dont change there trans fluid.... Heat and old fluid is about the only 2 things that will kill the tranny imo[/QUO

Yes, you are correct in what kills a trans, but if you saw the amount of 4L80E transmissions that had to be changed in my years in Holden dealer service departments around 150 to 180k, you'd see my point.

Oh and btw...a 5HP30 ZF trans has lifetime fill fluid, and mine did 590,000kms in my BMW 740iL and was still shifting nicely when I sold the car. No service, no fluid change, no trans cooler. These transmissions can withstand 1000hp with slight mods, and are the basis for the current 6-speed units in BF Fords.

The 4L80E trans is crap - its shifting is clunky and noisy, but with mods it handles good hp. There's the tradeoff, but GM insist upon putting cheap friction packs in them so they're slipping from 150k onwards. All it takes is GM to put the better friction packs the aftermarket trans rebuilders put in, and you have a 250k-300k duration box.....

[QUOTE=Vulture;1032111]Cooling fan clutches?

Yup - very common amongst the limo boys. Fan fails to engage, and the first you know about it is the high temp gauge.

Cheers

[OLS108]

[QUOTE=calais-346;1032432]If you think the stock autos are crap your kidding yourself, problem usually is people dont change there trans fluid.... Heat and old fluid is about the only 2 things that will kill the tranny imo[/QUO

Yes, you are correct in what kills a trans, but if you saw the amount of 4L80E transmissions that had to be changed in my years in Holden dealer service departments around 150 to 180k, you'd see my point.

Oh and btw...a 5HP30 ZF trans has lifetime fill fluid, and mine did 590,000kms in my BMW 740iL and was still shifting nicely when I sold the car. No service, no fluid change, no trans cooler. These transmissions can withstand 1000hp with slight mods, and are the basis for the current 6-speed units in BF Fords.

The 4L80E trans is crap - its shifting is clunky and noisy, but with mods it handles good hp. There's the tradeoff, but GM insist upon putting cheap friction packs in them so they're slipping from 150k onwards. All it takes is GM to put the better friction packs the aftermarket trans rebuilders put in, and you have a 250k-300k duration box.....



Yup - very common amongst the limo boys. Fan fails to engage, and the first you know about it is the high temp gauge.

Cheers

Do you mean 4L60E ?