Possible to run VE SV6 on gas?

[superSV6]

I'm looking into buying a SV6 shortly. Altbougn i dont think the fuel consumption is bad, i wouldnt mind stretching the dollar further by installing gas to make the car dual fuel. the base VE model can run on gas. Can the SV6 run on gas too?

[vyssbeast]

no reason why it wont ...

[Danv8]

Just keep in mind the petrol Alloytecs do not have harden valve seats fitted. Although the dual fuel models (180 kw engines) (factory fitted) does have harden valve seats fitted.

[superSV6]

Danv8, thanks for your helpful response.

i will make a few phone calls to see who can do the conversion for the SV6.

[vyssbeast]

I had mine done at Gaerra Auto in sunshine ... Pretty good system.

Starts on petrol and automatically switches to gas when the car reaches a set temp. Get bout 14L/100km (i do NOT baby it even tho its like flogging a dead horse) ... 14L sounds pretty high but considering the price of gas its nothing. $30 sees me around 500-550km ... if you do alot of highway kms you will be astonished at how far a tank will get you.

If you want any more info let me know.

[Swordie]

There are Statesman Alloytec Taxis running injected systems. Taxi drivers like duel fuel as gas can unreliable especially in hot whether. Dedicated gas can leave stranded with no business.

[darrelr]

Have had a few people enquire about gas on their new car and most the gas fitters won't touch them. They are saying without the hardened valve seats they are just to weak. Not to mention warranty issues if anything does happen

[vecommo]

I read somewhere that petrol Alloytecs converted to lpg only last about 50,000-100,000 kms before suffering from valve recession.
Factory lpg Alloytecs have hardened valve seats but these are not available in SV6.

[redvxr8clubby]

I read somewhere that petrol Alloytecs converted to lpg only last about 50,000-100,000 kms before suffering from valve recession.
Factory lpg Alloytecs have hardened valve seats but these are not available in SV6.


I have read the same - installers may say they can convert, but what happens in 50,000K when your heads need rebuild at what cost - so much for saving money on fuel. I wouln't convert a VZ or VE - get a factory original. Apparently VY V6 are OK on gas, but I guess if your looking at a VE, a VY wouldn't be your preferred choice. Apparently standard Ford 6's are not a good conversion prospect either - the E-Gas (factory) version use XR6 rods, which are stronger than standard rods. Apparently in gas testing Ford bent a standard conrod.

[PoweredByCNG]

We have a VZ SV6 with the Alloytec 190 High Output engine converted to dual fuel LPG using the OMVL Dream XXI-N Sequential Vapour Injection system distributed in Australia by Sprint Gas. The engine is also fitted with a Flash Lube kit that was installed free of charge with the gas setup - a system that's proven to slow down valve seat recession on cars designed for leaded fuel. So far, the engine has covered 10,000km with the dual fuel system fitted and has never missed a beat. Power-wise, you simply cannot tell the difference between gas and petrol. Fuel consumption is around 13L/100km around the suburbs 60%/40% low speed vs. freeway running or less than 9L/100km out in the country. We get 550km (hand calculated) or more every time without fail out of 70L of LPG which costs under $30. APA has also recently released a gas cylinder suitable for VE Commodores. There is now no reason why a VE cannot be converted.

Regarding cylinder head rebuilds, Alloytecs converted to LPG without a Flash Lube kit installed apparently won't last very long (there's very little proff of this from what I've read around the place) and when your head needs to be rebuilt, get hardened valve seats installed and you won't have any trouble for a very long time. Also, one of the reasons why Holden don't recommend converting the Alloytec engine is that most people will take the cheap route and insist on a mixer style system. One single backfire is all it takes to destroy the intake manifold and/or other parts of the engine. A Sequential Vapour Injection system eliminates the chance of backfire and therefore is safe to install in the Alloytec engine.

Another reason why Holden advise against installing LPG on Commodores is because they have a deal with Impco/BRC for the supply of Sequent 56 Injection systems. Another reason to not believe everything that Holden say.

Regards,
Dave

[Danv8]

I read somewhere that petrol Alloytecs converted to lpg only last about 50,000-100,000 kms before suffering from valve recession.
Factory lpg Alloytecs have hardened valve seats but these are not available in SV6.

Yup Holden told me the same thing when I asked about getting my Rodeo converted to LPG. ALthough I don't see the point of having it converted because soon enough I will have a Landcruiser 70 series V8 TD to replace it sometime next year.

[grexy]

Converted my vz sv6 12 months ago runs like a dream better on gas than petrol its a prins injection gas system $30 of gas about 450 or so km hills driving, halved my fuel bill couldnt be happier. Cost $1850 minus $2000 rebate.:smilesandbanana:

[German Statesman]

I'm looking into buying a SV6 shortly. Altbougn i dont think the fuel consumption is bad, i wouldnt mind stretching the dollar further by installing gas to make the car dual fuel. the base VE model can run on gas. Can the SV6 run on gas too?


In a short, concise, i-don't-need-to-bullshit-to-you-because-i-don't-wanna-sell-you-something, honest way, no you can't. Anyone that tells you otherwise is humping your leg, because in plain English in the car's books it says Holden do not recommend installation of LPG on the Alloytec V6 engine unless the factory mods and kit have been fitted.

Holden has a factory-approved LPG option that goes into Omega sedan only, and it utilises modified valve seats and piston rings in the heads as part of the conversion. It has to be factory-ordered and is identified by the option on the build plate, as well as the HBD plate under the bonnet. You could trash an Alloytec engine in as little as 30,000kms or it may go forever - you're playing Russian roulette with you motor.

I'm sick of reading we-can-install-lpg-on-anything chest beatings from mechanics that will drop you like a hot potato if you strike problems and lack any sort of credibility with Holden or the general public (no singular person or company mentioned and no offence should be taken). They stand behind lpg equipment brands like maniacal football supporters and scream bullshit when anyone says anything different to what they.

Let's kick the fairy tales out of the way, and have an honest conversation.

Flame suit on, five-point harness buckled, here we go....

1. If ANYONE is told by a manufacturer that their vehicle cannot/should not be fitted with LPG and are told bullshit by an lpg installer, you will want written details of the installer's workshop liability insurance policy and/or a written statement from them that they will front up with the rectification costs should any part fail in the car's warranty period due to the conversion/operation on lpg. Why? The manufacturer said don't do it, so they ain't gonna pay. The installer said yes you can, so guess who logically pays...

2. A car that has done 100,000kms with MooCow brand LPG equipment on it with no probs is a big so what. Most cars are crushed/recycled used up around the 200,000km mark - let's see some real long term whole-of-life costings over a realistic period. And please please please DON'T be a guinea pig for someone that's never done one - would you take your pride and joy to someone that's never done a mafless tune to an LS1 before???

3. OEM equipment means service and part networks Australia wide. A cheap conversion is great except when is needs a part out the back of Two Head Junction in New South Wales (no, I didn't say Dubbo) and you quickly realise you've been popped up the keyster on your family's holiday because you saved a coupla hundred bucks over a good quality conversion.

4. Upper cylinder lubricators are the great snake oil ointment of the lpg industry, and will put profit back into a conversion for an installer if he's gutsed the price to meet a competitor. They do nothing except evaporate with the heat of the engine and leave thin little trails in the intake runners - nothing else (except coat the intake manifold temp sensor and stuff it completely). Save your money.

Go and do a forum search of LPG installations, and read up on the info. Injection systems have greatly increased the effectiveness of LPG as a fuel and have eliminated some of the leaning out on the outer cylinder problems mixers gave, but if your engine shouldn't have gas fitted no brand of LPG system whether it be MooCow, WoodenHead or otherwise will make it better.

Oh and by the way - if any installer starts with the Holden-hate-the-aftermarket-lpg-industry, run away from them and delete their phone number. If they bag competition instead of giving you a structured argument in their favour you'll soon see what they'll be like when you get troubles...

All the best :)

[Brendanteck]

Another option might be to do what I did. I looked into getting a VE SV6 on LPG but Holden was not enthusiastic ( to say the least ) about it so I spent a little extra and got an SS. Holden recomended an install place to me and my car had the conversion done by impco themselves as the first one for the new kit that Holden will be bringing out shortly for the V8. It uses the same factory install bits as the Omega kit but with a few mods for the extra cyls. Runs great and goes through about the same amount of juice as my VX V6 did with the old school type conversion. I have done about 35000k's on it so far.

BT

[German Statesman]

Another option might be to do what I did. I looked into getting a VE SV6 on LPG but Holden was not enthusiastic ( to say the least ) about it so I spent a little extra and got an SS. Holden recomended an install place to me and my car had the conversion done by impco themselves as the first one for the new kit that Holden will be bringing out shortly for the V8. It uses the same factory install bits as the Omega kit but with a few mods for the extra cyls. Runs great and goes through about the same amount of juice as my VX V6 did with the old school type conversion. I have done about 35000k's on it so far.

BT

Interesting - Holden never considered a kit for the V8 when I did them because they were only moving 5 thousand V8s a year and even the tooling for that little number of conversions would'nt add up.

Many of the aftermarket guys that haven't done a Holden option install don't realise the work that's gone into it - the option doesn't splice into wiring like the a/m guys do (its all plug and play with new harnesses), there's proper jigs and tooling to enable high standards of fit and finish, and the equipment is made to last the lifetime of the car. Service and parts networks are standard Holden ones throughout Australia and there's no warranty issues.

I mentioned this post to a friend of mine I once worked with doing conversions for years, and he heard of an installer putting LPG on VZ/WM Alloytec taxis in Melbourne - so far the trashed motor count is five, and all have expired under 60,000kms. The installer even put half decent LPG equipment on them which is unusual for taxi conversions....just goes to show if they say don't do them, don't do them.

Cheers

[Highway]

Any more info on this Impco Holden factory approved kit ?

Any factory warranty ?

I spoke to Impco they only confirm their V6 system is the kit approved by Holden.

Mike

[Dr.Gas]

Well well well, very interesting reading! The fact is, that just about any manufacturer will tell you that you can't put LPG on XYZ car because it's not LPG compatable. Ford did it with the BA, Holden did it with the VT and so on. How many BA Falcons do you see with non genuine LPG? Bloody heaps. Yes the choice of system is important (injection is the best) and so is the choice of installer. You generally get what you pay for. I actually develop LPG systems for the aftermarket, not allowed to say for who 'cause thats advertising on here, but our systems are not just a box of bits and good luck with your projects type stuff. Proper wiring harnesses, laser cut brackets etc etc. We have done the alloytech V6 in both VZ and VE. To protect the engine we switch to petrol under heavy load when the combustion chamber temps can start to rise on LPG. The change is seemless. This is common practice for those in the know. We have also done 5.7L and 6.0L V8's from VY to VE. My VY 5.7 did 95000k on LPG before it was traded for the VE. A cylinder leak down test showed NO ill effects of running on LPG. The guy who purchased the car contacted us recently regarding service, it's done 120000 now no dramas.......he's doing hand stands! And just a note all of our systems are 100% emission approved. Not all non genuine gear is rubbish.

[German Statesman]

Well well well, very interesting reading! The fact is, that just about any manufacturer will tell you that you can't put LPG on XYZ car because it's not LPG compatable. Ford did it with the BA, Holden did it with the VT and so on. How many BA Falcons do you see with non genuine LPG? Bloody heaps. Yes the choice of system is important (injection is the best) and so is the choice of installer. You generally get what you pay for. I actually develop LPG systems for the aftermarket, not allowed to say for who 'cause thats advertising on here, but our systems are not just a box of bits and good luck with your projects type stuff. Proper wiring harnesses, laser cut brackets etc etc. We have done the alloytech V6 in both VZ and VE. To protect the engine we switch to petrol under heavy load when the combustion chamber temps can start to rise on LPG. The change is seemless. This is common practice for those in the know. We have also done 5.7L and 6.0L V8's from VY to VE. My VY 5.7 did 95000k on LPG before it was traded for the VE. A cylinder leak down test showed NO ill effects of running on LPG. The guy who purchased the car contacted us recently regarding service, it's done 120000 now no dramas.......he's doing hand stands! And just a note all of our systems are 100% emission approved. Not all non genuine gear is rubbish.

Yes, have heard of a couple of BAs on gas up here that have backfired and ended up with a crankcase full of broken rods - it seems Ford DO put the Turbo rods in the E-gas engines!!

The shop I worked for put one of the first LS1s on gas, a 2000 WH limo - it ended up doing 400,000kms with an Impco air valve gas carb system. It went like stink and performed really well, again with no leaks or loss of compression. It only retired coz of the ol' oil pump failure...

Cheers

[CapriceMe]

Interesting reading this!! Has anyone since installed a system to the SV6 or WM v8 for that matter?

[PoweredByCNG]

Guys,

There is no evidence to suggest that Holden use valve seats that are any different from the normal valve seats used on the standard petrol Alloytec engines on their LPG Alloytec engines. In fact, in the workshop manuals, the "Part number" for the "LPG valve seats" is blank. I think Holden are using scare tactics in order to secure more "factory-backed" LPG purchases - same as Ford with their Falcons. Valve seats designed to withstand unleaded petrol & ethanol are already hardened and will quite happily last on LPG.

As for our SV6 with OMVL/SprintGas injected LPG - no dramas at all. The system has been on there for over 1.5 years now.

Regards,
Dave

[mdrysdale]

the alloytec v6 don't use different valve seats, only different valves.

[mmciau]

Check the Holden VIN and Engine Numbers in this catalogue listing

SEDAN NOVEMBER 2005 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 42174Colour: HERON WHITEReg No: XQI479Engine No: 10HNAH053060336 VIN: 6G1ZK52N15L514349Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 956852Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows Front


SEDAN SEPTEMBER 2005 COMMODORE EXEC VZ AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 26379Colour: VESPERReg No: XQI542Engine No: 10HBAH052580079 VIN: 6G1ZK54B65L507853Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 956925Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, FE2 Sports Suspension, Power Windows, Air Bags Side Front, Police Pack


SEDAN MARCH 2007 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Dual Fuel)Kms: 70272Colour: VESPERReg No: XQN545Engine No: LW2070500384 VIN: 6G1EK52N17L927227Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 963222Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, Power Windows, Traction Control, Electronic Stability Program, Sport Shift Mode

SEDAN OCTOBER 2007 COMMODORE OMEGA VE AUTO GST: GST InclusiveEngine: 3.6L ( Petrol)Kms: 63064Colour: HERON WHITEReg No: XQO552Engine No: LE0072830447 VIN: 6G1EK55B18L115297Ex: the Government of SASalvage Advice No: 965140Options: Dual Air Bags, Antilock Brake System, Cruise Control, FE2 Sports Suspension, Power Windows, Traction Control, Air Bags Side Front, Police Pack, Rear Parking Sensors, Electronic Stability Program, Side Curtain Airbags Front & Rear, Sport Shift Mode

The 'N' in the VIN designates a Dual Fuel car

[PoweredByCNG]

I'm still not convinced that the Dual Fuel Alloytec are any different to standard Alloytecs. The engines themselves come off of exactly the same production lines and are fitted with the IMPCO LPG system AFTER being fitted to the car. In addition, as I said above, Holden does not disclose a part number for the supposed 'LPG valve seats'. As for the valves, it does not make logical sense for them to be any different, as the sole issue that people want to eliminate with LPG engines is premature VSR (valve seat recession).

Ford also have a scare campaign that discourages people from converting their petrol Falcons and Territory's to LPG, but look at how many BA, BF and FG Falcons there are on the road with aftermarket LPG systems. Aftermarket injected LPG is far superior to Ford's E-gas system.

There are now plenty of VZ taxis in Perth all running with LPG injection and so far the results have been so good according to my sources in the taxi industry.

Regards,
Dave

[wranglerrjm]

Bought an SV6 ute 4 weeks ago and my DEALER arranged for aftermarket LPG to be installed. It's now June 2009 and I've driven just under 6000k's. Car has not missed a beat, seamlessly changes over to LPG and goes back to petrol when I decide to put my foot down. What an awesome system - can't wait to return to this post when I've driven 150 plus k's to tell you all is well!

For all the doubters out there, just keep one thing in mind - petrol is around $1.30 at the moment, what do you think it'll be in five years time? What about ten years from now? Sure LPG will go up, and substantially too over the next few years when the excise expires, but I gaurentee you, it'll still be cheaper than petrol. As for alloytechs not being suited to LPG, I yawned years ago when the same things were said about VR V6's and I drove that sucker on LPG into the ground with 325,000 k's on it - never missed a beat. I'm sure that engine production quality has improved, not worsened since then.

PS, the ol VR V6 that I had on LPG is still running, only got rid of the car because sick of gearbox troubles.

[johnpro]

Well well well, very interesting reading! The fact is, that just about any manufacturer will tell you that you can't put LPG on XYZ car because it's not LPG compatable. .



I ran my Rolls Royce silver shadow on LPG and the big V8 loved it. The manufacturers would almost certainly would say 'not the proper thing to do' I ran my HQ for 25 years on gas{same engine} & now into 11th year on factory VT gas.