What happened to all wheel drive Commy?

[XR6T GEN]

Hi,

A few years back there was this rush to get a all wheel drive car onto the road. The Mitsubishi had it in the magna, Holden fumbled around with the coupe 4, have the adventura, ford basically have an all wheel drive falcon called the territory? Mitsubishi seem to have abandoned it, Holden no longer have Coupe 4 and theres no talk of all wheel drive 08 falcon either??

When is Holden going to use this technology on Calais or SS or E-series (other than Coupe 4)??? Does anyone know of plans for such?

[Ryzz]

Last i heard Holden did not have any current plans for an AWD version, however if i remember correctly the VE Chassis was designed to accommodate the AWD hardware.

[XR6T GEN]

Who has a Coupe 4 or ever driven one? they must really scoot?

It would take performance to another level I say. Decent power and all wheel drive, awesome.

[seedyrom]

I haven't been in one.

They go okay I guess.

here's a stock one.

YouTube - Coupe 4 Turbo - WSID ######### Private Day (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGiT8yyqt2w)


Does 11.3. Not bad I suppose

[kart_racer]

The AWD system would use more fuel, so I guess Holden and Ford will be concentrating on improving fuel economy rather than revolutionising their cars with a new drivetrain.

[NickS]

I haven't been in one.

They go okay I guess.

here's a stock one.

:lol:

Having owned a Coupe 4, an Avalanche, an E-Series GTS and an SS-V I think I have a fair idea why the AWD was dropped ...

They finally came up with an ESP system that works, you don't need AWD anymore.

:yup:

[Redline]

Not to mention they were heavy and slow and only came in Automatic :spew:

Maybe XR6T GEN can take that one on in his challenge at WSID :lmao:

[Mungrel]

:lol:

Having owned a Coupe 4, an Avalanche, an E-Series GTS and an SS-V I think I have a fair idea why the AWD was dropped ...

They finally came up with an ESP system that works, you don't need AWD anymore.

:yup:

With a garage like that, i spose you'd know! :lol:

[DaveHAT]

Not to mention they were heavy and slow and only came in Automatic :spew:

Maybe XR6T GEN can take that one on in his challenge at WSID :lmao:

Good call Redline :bravo: :lol:

C'mon old mate XR6T GEN ... you reckon your FLOPCON will run 11's ... take that stock Coupe4 on ... it should be a walk in the park for you.

:D

[Snapper]

Good call Redline :bravo: :lol:

C'mon old mate XR6T GEN ... you reckon your FLOPCON will run 11's ... take that stock Coupe4 on ... it should be a walk in the park for you.

:D

Hey Dave. Be nice to the children will you. You know how precious they can be.

[worldofhurt]

no way in hell a coupe 4 does 11.3 quarter stock,otherwise they would prob still be making them.werent they only 270 kw?

[ExAreSix]

AWD is just too heavy in such a big car.
The Coupe4 was slower than the equivilant RWD HSV in a straight line. The extra grip off the line just did not make enough difference.
And the extra weight muted any grip advantage on the circuits.

And guys, cmon. I know this guy has stirred you all up in other threads, but leave it be. He's asking a genuine question here that could stimulate an interesting discussion, and a few of you reply like school kids.

[DaveHAT]

no way in hell a coupe 4 does 11.3 quarter stock,otherwise they would prob still be making them.werent they only 270 kw?

That one does. :yup:

EDIT: Ooops ... I'm sorry. Did I say stock?

I meant stock looking. :lol:

:D

[Snapper]

Depends on your definition of stock really. Are you guys new here??

[Redline]

It might be a genuine question from anyone else but given the drivel that has been going on what sort of response did you expect.

[VX2VESS]

high cost to produce, low sales, not a great design was come up with.

not going to make cars that don't sell well enough to support themselves.

[XR6T GEN]

Id beg to differ. The coupe 4 was only slower because it had less KW. 270kw vs 297kw of the other cars. Plus it only had the 5.7L. apparently they had a funny exhaust manifold due to the AWD that killed power.

Give that car a CAM, edit and decent exhaust and it will fly. No car on the road will get near it. Did you see that video?, he was gone pretty early.

While your there chipping away off the mark, he would slap your face and be gooooone. :confused:

I think Holden dropped them because of cost. What about Mitsubishi? didnt they have one in the magna, it just disappeared?

[nudenut]

Id beg to differ. The coupe 4 was only slower because it had less KW. 270kw vs 297kw of the other cars. Plus it only had the 5.7L. apparently they had a funny exhaust manifold due to the AWD that killed power.
Riiiight. So you reckon a Coupe4 with a 285kW LS1 would have been as fast down the 1/4 as a GTO Coupe with 285kW LS1?

The greater losses through the AWD drivetrain and the higher weight slowed it down. AWD is only an advantage if you have traction issues to start with. I personally would love a Coupe4 (although I prefer manual) but certainly not for straightline acceleration.

How stock do you think that car in the vid is anyway? :confused:

[HSV Listy]

The active trac is bloody great fun on dirt roads and gives a huge amount of confidence and the fun factor is friggen awesome.
There was a drag night early in the year that the avalanche got near best time of the night and that was a 15 sec pass on a wet track. See in certain circumstances there is a place for them.

I say keep bringing them out. The avalanche is the best car I have ever brought or driven. Just got to use them for different reasons other than 0 to 100 times on the tarmac. They say 6.4 sec 0 to 100 on the dirt so their is not many holdens that can do that. I did consider the coupe 4 when buying the avalanche. It was what I wanted and what the misses wanted. Obvious who won not that I am disappointed at all as I did not fit in the coupe anyway.

[XR6T GEN]

The active trac is bloody great fun on dirt roads and gives a huge amount of confidence and the fun factor is friggen awesome.
There was a drag night early in the year that the avalanche got near best time of the night and that was a 15 sec pass on a wet track. See in certain circumstances there is a place for them.

I say keep bringing them out. The avalanche is the best car I have ever brought or driven. Just got to use them for different reasons other than 0 to 100 times on the tarmac. They say 6.4 sec 0 to 100 on the dirt so their is not many holdens that can do that. I did consider the coupe 4 when buying the avalanche. It was what I wanted and what the misses wanted. Obvious who won not that I am disappointed at all as I did not fit in the coupe anyway.


Whats an avalanche? isnt that an adventura? wagon 4wd thing?


Riiiight. So you reckon a Coupe4 with a 285kW LS1 would have been as fast down the 1/4 as a GTO Coupe with 285kW LS1?

The greater losses through the AWD drivetrain and the higher weight slowed it down. AWD is only an advantage if you have traction issues to start with. I personally would love a Coupe4 (although I prefer manual) but certainly not for straightline acceleration.

How stock do you think that car in the vid is anyway? :confused:

Ok gimme a Coupe 4 with 285kw, you can have the sedan and on street tyres lets see who gets down the quarter quicker??? On street tyres.

[chrism697]

[QUOTE]Whats an avalanche? isnt that an adventura? wagon 4wd thing?
[/QUOTE
its the HSV version of the adventura

[Ryzz]

Whats an avalanche? isnt that an adventura? wagon 4wd thing?



Ok gimme a Coupe 4 with 285kw, you can have the sedan and on street tyres lets see who gets down the quarter quicker??? On street tyres.

Sedan hands down.

Y2 R8 Clubsport, came stock with 285KW, Weighs 1700KG (rounded up), only has to drive 2 wheels through a single diff.

VZ Coupe 4, theoretically 285KW for purpose of comparision, Weighs 1800KG (rounded) drives 4 Wheels through 2 Diffs and a Transfer Case.

Now think about these numbers for a minute XR6T GEN, how can something making the same power, that weighs more, has to spin more mechanical systems to turn more wheels, possibly be faster??

[XR6T GEN]

The question is, will the sedan have enough poke to pull the coupe 4 back? The Coupe 4 will bolt away off the line on street tyres, no question about it. As speeds rise I reckon the weight means less and less and so does the awd mechanical disadvantage.

Would the sedan have enough starch to come back.... I dunnno. the coupe pulling from say 10km/h more at the start pulling away, need a mountain of grunt to pull it back.

[Ryzz]

The question is, will the sedan have enough poke to pull the coupe 4 back? The Coupe 4 will bolt away off the line on street tyres, no question about it. As speeds rise I reckon the weight means less and less and so does the awd mechanical disadvantage.

Would the sedan have enough starch to come back.... I dunnno. the coupe pulling from say 10km/h more at the start pulling away, need a mountain of grunt to pull it back.

Your forgetting power loss from the drive train mate. The LS1's dont make a bucket loads of torque down low in stock form. Put whatever money you want on it mate, but im telling you it aint gonna happen. Its basic physics mate. Power vs Weight.

[XR6T GEN]

I might actually be wrong? Hmmm (scratching my head). If Coupe 4 only in auto, cant stall much more than 2000-2200rpm, The coupe gotta have a better take off surely? Can the sedan afford such a start over a quarter mile and come home from the clouds???

[DaveHAT]

Id beg to differ. The coupe 4 was only slower because it had less KW. 270kw vs 297kw of the other cars. Plus it only had the 5.7L. apparently they had a funny exhaust manifold due to the AWD that killed power.

Give that car a CAM, edit and decent exhaust and it will fly. No car on the road will get near it. Did you see that video?, he was gone pretty early.

While your there chipping away off the mark, he would slap your face and be gooooone. :confused:

I think Holden dropped them because of cost. What about Mitsubishi? didnt they have one in the magna, it just disappeared?

Ya can't help but admire your persistence champ.

Have we completely overlooked the weight penalty the Coupe4 carries and additional losses through the driveline?

Your argument is totally flawed and I can back this up with an example.

As raced down the quarter (both on street tyres):

1 x Coupe4 auto - equipped with 383 stroker but otherwise as it came from the factory (3.46 gears and HSV exhaust etc).
1 x SS sedan manual equipped with stock engine MAFless tune, 3.91s & OTR and full exhaust.


Result = Lineball across the finish line to within .1 of a second.

How then Mr XR6T GEN ... does your creative imagination explain that a stock Coupe4 would stick it to a stock clubsport if a stroked N/A AWD Coupe runs neck and neck with a stock engined MAFless tuned sedan?

Traction benefits are only worth so much before weight and drivetrain loss comes into play.

As aunty Pauline would ask ... "Please explain". :confused:

PS.
The aforementioned Coupe4 in point 1, is now a figment of LS1 history ... having now been transformed into the evil (and very much faster) :shock: twin.

[XR6T GEN]

Still, were the drivers the same? thats just apples vs oranges, they have completely different drivetrains, diff gears? different engines, hows that fair. theres nothing to explain.

Im talking about Coupe 4 VS sedan "ceteris paribus". (all other things being equal)

Lets do this slowly...

Do we agree that the Coupe 4 would win off the mark? yes?

Can a 285kw car catch another 285kw car if its already a car length behind?

the question is how much more grunt will you need to catch and pass it, (how much more can the coupe afford to lose through the drivetrain and weight) before the sedan will have enough.

Weight matters less and less as the car is moving faster and faster.

[DaveHAT]

Still, were the drivers the same? thats just apples vs oranges, they have completely different drivetrains, diff gears? different engines, hows that fair. theres nothing to explain.

Im talking about Coupe 4 VS sedan "ceteris paribus". (all other things being equal)

Lets do this slowly...

Do we agree that the Coupe 4 would win off the mark? yes?

Can a 285kw car catch another 285kw car if its already a car length behind?

the question is how much more grunt will you need to catch and pass it, (how much more can the coupe afford to lose through the drivetrain and weight) before the sedan will have enough.

Weight matters less and less as the car is moving faster and faster.

Once again your argument is flawed ... "ceteris paribus". (all other things being equal) is irrelevant. One is a heavy AWD Coupe4 and one is a 2WD Sedan ... therefore they will NEVER be the same.

No need to do things slowly but as you drive a Ford ... I see the relevance in doing so and I'm happy to oblige. :D

1. Do we agree that the Coupe 4 would win off the mark? yes?

No.

Reason 1:
Your argument re: variables applies. Were the drivers the same? Age, ability etc? Therefore you statement that the Coupe4 automatically WOULD doesn't hold water.

Reason 2.
The manual sedan (even with 3.46 diff gears) HAS less rolling mass to get moving than the 300kg or so heavier Coupe4 thus offsetting the presumed advantage that the AWD provides.

Can a 285kw car catch another 285kw car if its already a car length behind?

Once again NO.

REASON:
Just because both cars have a 285kw badge and supposed 285 kw at whatever part of the driveline you care to mention does NOT imply that both are ACTUALLY making the same power.

Weight may well matter less and less the faster a vehicle goes BUT if the vehicle in front has a car length lead ... it can matter as little as floats your boat. Unless there is a BIG power advantage to the trailing car, then it is VERY unlikley to catch let alone pass the car in front. Seeing as you have proposed that both cars in this little scenario have the same power (285kw) then the answer would be no.

BTW: You don't have a friend called Peter do you? :confused:

[Ryzz]

BTW: You don't have a friend called Peter do you? :confused::lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[nudenut]

Further to Tiger SS's post I'll add my 2c:


Lets do this slowly...
Sounds good, give it a chance to sink in.


Do we agree that the Coupe 4 would win off the mark? yes?
No, I don't agree. It's possible depending on driver etc, but given both are driven by a decent driver, it would only win if traction was a serious issue for the RWD car. From what I've heard it wouldn't be for a 285fwkW car, even on street tyres (any drag gurus care to comment?). The Coupe4 is pulling a couple of hundred extra kg and losing possibly 10% more power through the drivetrain.

It can also be the case that too much traction is bad, bogging the engine down too quickly. A stock LS1 with traction at 2000-2500RPM is going to very very bad for the 1/4 time, especially in a heavier than usual car.


Can a 285kw car catch another 285kw car if its already a car length behind?
How soon is it supposed to be this car length behind? Is it after 10m? 100m? 200m? Once traction isn't an issue for either car, the Coupe4 will have maybe 80-90% max of the acceleration of the RWD car at the same engine speed and road speed. If this car length happens right at the start it's quite possible that the Coupe4 could get caught up 5m over the rest of the drag, but too many variables to say one way or another.


Weight matters less and less as the car is moving faster and faster.
Right. Which means it matters more and more at the start. If the RWD car has any decent sort of traction, the Coupe4 is history.

So the only questions from me, to those who are drag regulars, is this:

(1) Is it likely that a 285fwkW GTO/Clubbie will have major traction issues on street tyres?
(2) Would a 285fwkW Coupe4 have problems with bogging down at the start?

I personally would think that (1) would be no, and (2) would be yes, so there goes the contest.

[XR6T GEN]

I do have a friend called peter... YOU!!

Anyhow,lets do this sl-o-w-e-r

How can the 2wd car beat the COUPE4 off the mark. no chance. Any LS1 Ive driven spins the tyres with too much revs, dont know about the low compression car your talking about. So the COUPE4 will have the benefit of traction (street tyres remember) So dial up more revs in the COUPE4 (both cars auto, ceteris paribus remember) and a better launch..

bang there goes the coupe, after 50 metres hes 1-2 cars ahead. Now I concede the 2wd car should be making more rwkw so it should come back. But if the COUPE4 is doing 5-10km/h more due to the better start its pulling away and away.

I reckon you will need 300-320kw in the 2wd car to arrest him from there. hes goooooe!!!!!

[nudenut]

How can the 2wd car beat the COUPE4 off the mark. no chance. Any LS1 Ive driven spins the tyres with too much revs, dont know about the low compression car your talking about. So the COUPE4 will have the benefit of traction (street tyres remember) So dial up more revs in the COUPE4 (both cars auto, ceteris paribus remember) and a better launch..
Maybe you should look at buying some decent tyres?

[worldofhurt]

quit while your behind mate,how many times does it have to explained

[XR6T GEN]

Im talking about the best quality tyres available nankangs. Just joking both cars on factory rubber will see the coupe 4 with a better launch, lets not kid ourselves. Im just saying the 2wd car wont have enough to come back over a quarter mile. lets be sensible

[ShanghaiVZ]

BTW: You don't have a friend called Peter do you? :confused:


I was gonna say a relation to BlueSS :rofl: . In his defense he's entertaining :jester:

[Ryzz]

I do have a friend called peter... YOU!!

Anyhow,lets do this sl-o-w-e-r

How can the 2wd car beat the COUPE4 off the mark. no chance. Any LS1 Ive driven spins the tyres with too much revs, dont know about the low compression car your talking about. So the COUPE4 will have the benefit of traction (street tyres remember) So dial up more revs in the COUPE4 (both cars auto, ceteris paribus remember) and a better launch..

bang there goes the coupe, after 50 metres hes 1-2 cars ahead. Now I concede the 2wd car should be making more rwkw so it should come back. But if the COUPE4 is doing 5-10km/h more due to the better start its pulling away and away.

I reckon you will need 300-320kw in the 2wd car to arrest him from there. hes goooooe!!!!!
Mate the facts are there, accept it, people have even given you real life examples to try and explain it, and you refuse to listen.

The thread is closed. Try not create another thread for at least a week, all your doing is pissing everyone on this forum (me included) off with your stupid threads and questions.

:closed: