Funds approved for forced induction!!

[Uncle Tone]

Chrissy present this year was a turbo or blower kit!! :D

What I want is something that has ADR compliance, so I believe that comes down to two kits, Tunas Gen TT kit and Harrops 122 kit.

I really, really like the "ex Tuna" Gen T-1000 by ASE kit for the VE. Turbo placement is good, gravity oil drain, if you really tried you could adapt a water to air intercooler to it and shorten the path that the compressed air has to travel, but as yet they don't offer any emissions compliance, so that might be the death of that kit for me.

I can't decide which way to go!! :bawl:

I do like the power delivery of the blower.....the power is instantly there. No lag at all, and the power starts way down low, where I spend the majority of the time driving. If I was being sensible then this is the way I would go. I can't really fault the kit, easy-peasy install, sounds awesome when you're on it, and nice stock manners when you're off it. The only downside would be that in my opinion its very much overpriced at 10.5K roundabouts. Also I'm scared that it won't be enough power for money spent. The GenTT comes in at 8 grand with everything, which is significant. I'm not out to spend stupid money.

I'm thinking that you might get more power out of the VE Gen TT kit than the Harrop 112 kit. Does anybody have any feedback on this? Am I right in thinking this way? Also, if I'm just pottering around, I don't need power down low anyway. If I want to go fast I'll rev it.

Only problems I can see with the turbo kit would be more difficult installation, and that bloody oil pump draining the turbos. What if that fails? What happens then?

I'm hopefully going to drive both types of kits sometime in Jan, and then make a decision from there. I'm looking for some feedback from owners of both kits, and also people who have tried both types. What do you think?

[RED R8]

I would give my left nut to see a Harrop sitting pretty on my R8 the look,sound horn and in complianced form I would say power would be equal if not greater than the twins but the twins would have room to crank it past the Harrop but void the approval..Either way the hard work is done you have the approval...

[Sonnymad]

Congratulations tone !!!! looks like you have got a good chrissy preseant !!! :)


regards sonny

[macca33]

Yes mate, instead of contemplating, how about just doing????????

Have a crack son!

Cheers and happy Xmas and New Year - Cyprus is good to me - I'm pissed!!!

And I don't care about goats or camels right now. I'm out on 12/1/08.

Get into it son,

Macca

[TLX]

UT....go the HH122 mate, pretty sure WP has just signed off on this one for full compliance. This blower will see close to 380rwk no problems and if needed you can add the high boost pulley kit, fuel system ect and see 400rwk. Good thing about the blower is if you sell the car in future, just take of blower and convert back to original:thumbsup:

Tully

[Jopecasa]

I'm JEASLOUS!!!


ENJOY!!
:driving:

[VILLAIN]

Not the old ADR compliance can of worms again, there has been a numbers of threads about this subject. As long as you can get insurance and stay out of trouble with the jacks you'll be right.

[Uncle Tone]

Not the old ADR compliance can of worms again, there has been a numbers of threads about this subject. As long as you can get insurance and stay out of trouble with the jacks you'll be right.

Yep, and I started a lot of the threads!! :D

If I'm gonna give all that money to a company they can bloody well put some effot in and make sure their products are legal for use.....after all, thats what I want to do with them....use them!! :nutkick:

Its not as if this is an exhaust or an intake pipe that can be put back to standard quickly and easily, this is a serious mod!! :teach:

[HSVJPL]

Tone,

You should also consider Harrops new HTV2300 blower

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=84670&highlight=HTV2300

[Uncle Tone]

Tone,

You should also consider Harrops new HTV2300 blower

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=84670&highlight=HTV2300

I wonder if thats ADR complied as well.....that looks ideal!!

Might be a bit more money than I wanted to spend though....

[mce]

U/T i have had both harrop 122 and the gentt . both kits have there pros and cons

Harrop is a nice and easy install fits well , power delivery is smooth and seamless , the downside is the kit is expensive but you do get everything with the kit , also the supercharger does suffer from heat soak on average inlet temps of around 65 to 70degrees

Gentt is a little more time consuming to install but well worth the wait , power delivery is a little slower at first but comes on realy strong @ 3000 it makes 450rwhp and thats fun , the kit is a lot cheaper but you do have to buy injectors

Both forms of FI are great , both drive as per normal on day to day driving .
I love the harrop as a daily driver but the gentt is so much fun

As far as the HTV2300 i am fitting one at the moment but it wont be a fair comparison as it is going on a custom 427 in a 05 gto it should be finnished mid january

hope this helps Terry

[Curtis-R]

Great news Uncle Tone!

I have to say the new WP blower looks very nice.. I'm pretty sure they are ADR compliant.

Took this pic the other week on their new VE Maloo

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l231/VE-SS_2006/wpmaloo3.jpg

Cheers
Curt.

[RED R8]

U/T i have had both harrop 122 and the gentt . both kits have there pros and cons

Harrop is a nice and easy install fits well , power delivery is smooth and seamless , the downside is the kit is expensive but you do get everything with the kit , also the supercharger does suffer from heat soak on average inlet temps of around 65 to 70degrees

Gentt is a little more time consuming to install but well worth the wait , power delivery is a little slower at first but comes on realy strong @ 3000 it makes 450rwhp and thats fun , the kit is a lot cheaper but you do have to buy injectors

Both forms of FI are great , both drive as per normal on day to day driving .
I love the harrop as a daily driver but the gentt is so much fun

As far as the HTV2300 i am fitting one at the moment but it wont be a fair comparison as it is going on a custom 427 in a 05 gto it should be finnished mid january

hope this helps Terry

After seing that GTO in your shop it swings me towards the Harrop purely on horn factor...looks awesome sitting on the motor..:bow:

[Hammer]

just send the car to Martin, hell wave his magic wand over it Tone....


will have to call you T-Tone (turbo tone )

:D :D

[vx350int]

just send the car to Martin, hell wave his magic wand over it Tone....


will have to call you T-Tone (turbo tone )

:D :D

that would be stutter tone...T-T-Tone........(twin turbo tone)

[S2VYSS]

Must say I'm very jealous! I would go the blower mate, purely for the power delivery and the sound

[VIPER6]

Uncle Tone, Slut to the Maf, Go the Harrop! :D

[Leroy]

UT....go the HH122 mate, pretty sure WP has just signed off on this one for full compliance. This blower will see close to 380rwk no problems and if needed you can add the high boost pulley kit, fuel system ect and see 400rwk. Good thing about the blower is if you sell the car in future, just take of blower and convert back to original:thumbsup:

Tully

I am thinking I might need a cam as well to make that sort of power? I have the Harrop HH122 but the rest of my car is stock, including the exhaust and mine made 316rwkw. Please bear in mind it only has 1000k's on the clock when installed so the tune was very conservative. How do I get 380rwkw? An Exhaust system alone isn't going to get me 64rwkw's? Will I need a new fuel system if I put a cam in it? I know it's just a number but I spent over $10k to get a car as powerful as a 'cam only' car.......

Sorry for not talking about you Tone. Please bear in mind my car is very fast. Well at least I think so.

[RED R8]

I am thinking I might need a cam as well to make that sort of power? I have the Harrop HH122 but the rest of my car is stock, including the exhaust and mine made 316rwkw. Please bear in mind it only has 1000k's on the clock when installed so the tune was very conservative. How do I get 380rwkw? An Exhaust system alone isn't going to get me 64rwkw's? Will I need a new fuel system if I put a cam in it? I know it's just a number but I spent over $10k to get a car as powerful as a 'cam only' car.......

Sorry for not talking about you Tone. Please bear in mind my car is very fast. Well at least I think so.

Like you said it is a very conservative tune so maybe there is alot more in it with a more aggressive tune and exhaust ..

[ATTNSEEKR]

Like you said it is a very conservative tune so maybe there is alot more in it with a more aggressive tune and exhaust ..

maybe its just that, there not all that good without the rest of the setup? ie full exhaust which is another 5k roughly.

TTTone is good :)

[monarocv804]

I have thought about both the Gen-T and Harrop 112 but I have been looking for a second hand one that has only been on the car for a short time. It seems they are around the same price second hand and I am going for the Harrop kit. Just a thought and have a ball no matter which way you go. :eyes:

[EXCESSV]

UT i personally would go for a blower over the turbos
the sound, look and power delivery (ie no lag) is just what u need as a daily driver.
thats my personal opinion tho and thats the path i will head down in the future

Terry(MCE) gave u the most honest answer in saying that he loves the Harrop for a daily driver car.

and lets be honest...u dont rev past 3000rpm so the turbos wouldnt even spool up for that choice :lol:




just kidding mate :D


I am thinking I might need a cam as well to make that sort of power? I have the Harrop HH122 but the rest of my car is stock, including the exhaust and mine made 316rwkw. Please bear in mind it only has 1000k's on the clock when installed so the tune was very conservative. How do I get 380rwkw? An Exhaust system alone isn't going to get me 64rwkw's? Will I need a new fuel system if I put a cam in it? I know it's just a number but I spent over $10k to get a car as powerful as a 'cam only' car.......

Sorry for not talking about you Tone. Please bear in mind my car is very fast. Well at least I think so.full exhaust and tweak on the tune when u have done a few km to suit the exhaust etc will get u close to it.

stock car i got 25rwkw from just the whole exhaust plus another 22rwkw when it was MAF tuned from stock all at 3500km old....the mafless with OTR got me another 21rwkw...obviously u wont go OTR coz u have a blower but the gains are there to be had with exhaust and a normal tune thats not conservative due to the very little kms u have

[HHVYSS]

Tone

It is well and good to seek opinions but you really need to test drive both options. It is only then you can make an informed decision.

cheers

[OUTAtheBloo]

Tone

I have experience (ie ridden in) whippled, stroker (402), T1000, GenTT and VE TT set ups.

Seat of the pants in the passenger seat the whipple was sweet (run outa puff at 310rwkw) Very nice down low. The VE-TT was incrediable down low, particulary feeding the power in down low in 4th gear. Was really something i didnt expect. The turbos just keep on pushing, and you wonder if its ever going to stop !

Honestly get a ride/drive of both, and see what suits you mate. You will probably get lots of advice from people with no experience, and really that wont help your decision of what you like.

The blower will look nice on top of the motor, but i also like the stealth of the turbos hidden away, i also prefur the quietness of the turbos.

What would i have ??

Built motor with a T1000 :lol:

Arr well gotta dream, Go for it tone, push yaself into it, you'll love it :D

Dan

[Titanium]

Hey UT,

WPP have a couple of blown mules on hand, give Alan a call and organise a test ride.

They would suit your low RPM style.

Good on ya mate!

[TLX]

I am thinking I might need a cam as well to make that sort of power? I have the Harrop HH122 but the rest of my car is stock, including the exhaust and mine made 316rwkw. Please bear in mind it only has 1000k's on the clock when installed so the tune was very conservative. How do I get 380rwkw? An Exhaust system alone isn't going to get me 64rwkw's? Will I need a new fuel system if I put a cam in it? I know it's just a number but I spent over $10k to get a car as powerful as a 'cam only' car.......

Sorry for not talking about you Tone. Please bear in mind my car is very fast. Well at least I think so.

Leroy,

need cam, exhaust, mafless tune, high boost option 10psi.....should be on the money then:)

[6LtrLimo]

Since I have a VE coming I have been looking at this...
* Blower kit $11K
* Exhaust full system/headers $4K
* Cam springs tuning etc $4K

So around $20K to get 370rwkw or so from a blower.

Isnt that twice the price of a turbo system for the same power ???

and, once you have the cam/exhaust mods you have no chance of ADR compliance or engineering....

Just food for thought UT.

[piston1]

capa also have ADR approved supercharger kit http://www.capa.com.au/kits_holden_ve_v8.htm

[OLS108]

I would go the Harrop.

Good Luck Tone, i am sure your gonna love it.

Dave

[exwrx]

Tone, is a stroker an option? For your driving style, it might be worth considering...

[Uncle Tone]

Tone, is a stroker an option? For your driving style, it might be worth considering...

Nah Spiro, doubt if anyone is doing a stroker that passes emissions....except for the LS7 conversion that Corsa is doing.....but that is silly money.

[dadem0n]

Im sure someone could put a lovely little 402 together with a nice set of heads and a baby cam......

Maybe ride in a few cars with both kits and talk to people that have installed both kits for any problems/issues (ie not on the internet :lol: )

Which kits have had issues with blowing up standard engines? Unless you have the $$$ put aside as well.

Hmmmmm H122/T1000 :drool:

[Uncle Tone]

Harrop is a nice and easy install fits well , power delivery is smooth and seamless , the downside is the kit is expensive but you do get everything with the kit , also the supercharger does suffer from heat soak on average inlet temps of around 65 to 70degrees

Gentt is a little more time consuming to install but well worth the wait , power delivery is a little slower at first but comes on realy strong @ 3000 it makes 450rwhp and thats fun , the kit is a lot cheaper but you do have to buy injectors

Both forms of FI are great , both drive as per normal on day to day driving .
I love the harrop as a daily driver but the gentt is so much fun

So basically the Harrop is the neater no fuss install, but the Gen TT kills it power wise?

Thanks for your input mate :thumbsup:


Hey UT,

WPP have a couple of blown mules on hand, give Alan a call and organise a test ride.

They would suit your low RPM style.

Good on ya mate!

After seeing that pic that Curtis put up I might have to give Skipper a call.....


I find it very surprising that the majority are favouring supercharging rather than turbocharging! :confused: I would have thought that the turbo would have got the nod. But anyway....I'll have to drive both and make my mind up from there.

So.....Walkinshaws have a VE with the Harrop blower on it, so I could try that one. Who in Melbourne has a VE with an ADR complied turbo kit that I could try?

[bsbozzy]

So basically the Harrop is the neater no fuss install, but the Gen TT kills it power wise?

Thanks for your input mate :thumbsup:



After seeing that pic that Curtis put up I might have to give Skipper a call.....


I find it very surprising that the majority are favouring supercharging rather than turbocharging! :confused: I would have thought that the turbo would have got the nod. But anyway....I'll have to drive both and make my mind up from there.

So.....Walkinshaws have a VE with the Harrop blower on it, so I could try that one. Who in Melbourne has a VE with an ADR complied turbo kit that I could try?
You should know better than anyone not to get caught up with dyno figures, what you should be researching is track times if you are after the quickest ride down the quarter.

[Uncle Tone]

You should know better than anyone not to get caught up with dyno figures, what you should be researching is track times if you are after the quickest ride down the quarter.

Not interested in the quarter mile. In my opinion that doesn't give an indication of how a car will perform on the road.


Im sure someone could put a lovely little 402 together with a nice set of heads and a baby cam......

Maybe ride in a few cars with both kits and talk to people that have installed both kits for any problems/issues (ie not on the internet :lol: )

Which kits have had issues with blowing up standard engines? Unless you have the $$$ put aside as well.

Hmmmmm H122/T1000 :drool:

Turbo kits have blown engines I believe.....not sure about the Harrop kits. Thats another thing the blower has in its favour. It can't overboost, can it? The turbos can....and they can end your party real quick!! :(

[SSidewayz]

I love my M112, perfect for my driving style and its on my daily. Cant compare though because I have only driven turbo 6's no v8's. As far as figures are concerned the cheaper turbo kits definatley have bang for your buck. The seem to produce better top end power than the PD's on the same boost and love the 1/4. Pd's are more low/mid range fun. Depends what you want though, sounds like you would prefer a PD the way your heading. Ill be keen to see what you decide on in the end.
Cheers

[Wonky]

I can't decide which way to go!! :bawl:
As discussed in the chatbox UT, being blown is much more fun than having your hair dried! :D

[wp01]

So basically the Harrop is the neater no fuss install, but the Gen TT kills it power wise?

Thanks for your input mate :thumbsup:



After seeing that pic that Curtis put up I might have to give Skipper a call.....


I find it very surprising that the majority are favouring supercharging rather than turbocharging! :confused: I would have thought that the turbo would have got the nod. But anyway....I'll have to drive both and make my mind up from there.

So.....Walkinshaws have a VE with the Harrop blower on it, so I could try that one. Who in Melbourne has a VE with an ADR complied turbo kit that I could try?

Give me a call Tone, you can review both our M112 and HH122 packages..
(WP specific 122 as per the pic that Curtis put up.)
This new package of ours is delivered with our specific pulley set to produce 9.5-10.0 psi,is inclusive with hi flow injectors and cold air intake.

AL

[ATTNSEEKR]

Give me a call Tone, you can review both our M112 and HH122 packages..
(WP specific 122 as per the pic that Curtis put up.)
This new package of ours is delivered with our specific pulley set to produce 9.5-10.0 psi,is inclusive with hi flow injectors and cold air intake.

AL

is that ADR complianced ?

power output?

[Uncle Tone]

Give me a call Tone, you can review both our M112 and HH122 packages..
(WP specific 122 as per the pic that Curtis put up.)
This new package of ours is delivered with our specific pulley set to produce 9.5-10.0 psi,is inclusive with hi flow injectors and cold air intake.

AL

Excellent Skip, shall do. I gather you're closed for the holidays?


As discussed in the chatbox UT, being blown is much more fun than having your hair dried! :D

AAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Wonky that just might be the deal breaker right there!!! :lol:

[OLS108]

Maybe ride in a few cars with both kits and talk to people that have installed both kits for any problems/issues (ie not on the internet :lol: )

:

Grant, are you saying that people on the internet dont tell the truth ??:confused:

Dave

[A^K^T]

Turbo kits have blown engines I believe.....not sure about the Harrop kits. Thats another thing the blower has in its favour. It can't overboost, can it? The turbos can....and they can end your party real quick!! :(

There can be problems with any sort of mod you do to a car , i have seen one Harrop blower that produced an odd dyno graph (small problem and easy fix as i understood it) and there have been Vortec cars that have run into trouble as well as the turbo problems seen here and there . There are even pitfalls in stroker motors .

[pagey]

Turbo kits have blown engines I believe.....not sure about the Harrop kits. Thats another thing the blower has in its favour. It can't overboost, can it? The turbos can....and they can end your party real quick!! :(

whoa.. not sure where you got that one U.T.. No Shortage of Engines damaged with a S/C.. like any power upgrade.. always a possibility - even a cam can destroy your engine done incorrectly.

Also.. why not have a chat to Voodoo.. not sure how far away his Matador twin screw charger is - but was claimed to be the best/most efficient S/C in the world from memory.. not sure if anyone has one running yet.

[Justice R8]

Tone

I just put a gen TT on my girlfriends Ve clubby. She had a coupe with a vortec making 500rwkw. She prefers the twins on the clubby over the old coupe and vortec as it is far less noisy. I gave here a choice of the Harrop 122 and the Gen TT. She drove one with a Harrop and loved the power but hated the whine of the blower, said it would annoy the shit out of her driving everyday. She drove a TT VE and liked the power but hated the blow off's. Once Sam said he could plumb the blowoffs in to make them quite she wanted the tt kit. She was surprised when I told her that the TT was the cheapest of the 3 options. When she went to pick up the car she didnt believe it had been done as the engine bay looked the same to her (had an engine:confused:). She knew it once she drove it. I also looked at a sinle like they GENT type system but didnt like it at all compared to the twins as I have documented a million times before on here.

Lets be clear here though. All FI will suffer with summer heat. Her tt made 340 rwkw on a 35 degree day back to back. Its not going to win HP heros but it wasnt designed for HP heros contenders. Its a good allrounder that is pretty good value for the money. Where she loves it most is on the freeway in 5th and 6th where you can just power past when overtaking. It has the basic VE kit with small turbos. I find it great value when I drive it. Good delivery of power and pulls like a train. As far as lag goes it starts boosting at about 1700rpm and comes on well. This is all on a standard engine. Yep its standard. I know I always say dont FI standard engine but as Sam rightfully said to me it will be fine as long as you dont go chasing a dyno figure. The great thing with GenTT you dont need to change heads and cam and all the other myths that have been thrown around on the net making it cost prohibative.

I believe Sams will have a once only deal VE owners. A GenTT kit for the VE, fitted tuned drive in drive out all for under $10,000. It will be exactly the same as my Girlfriends clubby so people will be able to test drive a TT VE clubby before they fork out their hard earned $$ and know exactly what they will get. The only condition will be that they must own a VE to take it for a test drive. This eliminates test pilots. They will be able to take it on the freeway so they can feel how it accellerates through the gears instead of just driving back streets on and off the throttle which can give a false feeling.

Regards
Darren

[pagey]

I believe Sams will have a once only deal VE owners. A GenTT kit for the VE, fitted tuned drive in drive out all for under $10,000. It will be exactly the same as my Girlfriends clubby so people will be able to test drive a TT VE clubby before they fork out their hard earned $$ and know exactly what they will get. The only condition will be that they must own a VE to take it for a test drive. This eliminates test pilots. They will be able to take it on the freeway so they can feel how it accellerates through the gears instead of just driving back streets on and off the throttle which can give a false feeling.

Regards
Darren

And that right there is why they are/will be very very popular. and tested and approved also.
Great right up.

[subtle]

UT have you decided which way you want to go.I myself would go the blower but thats just me.Good luck either way mate.

[SIG-054]

After test driving a fully ADR approved kitted VE Twin Turbo today, all i can say is these things Rule on the street!

Boost comes on pretty strong from low revs, filling the midrage torque that the NA VE engine misses. The thing is so quiet, no one will ever know u are driving a boosted car, not even your partner if u dont tell her :lol:

Even driving in todays high 30 degree temps with the aircon on full, i could not fault the car as the inlet temps were only slightly higher than an NA car with an OTR.

i backed it up with Driving a proven 12 second VE SSV with a 12 second package and OTR, although still quick and a load of fun to boot around, it is definetly no match compared to the ADR TT's and far less noise.

What else could u want UT? roughly 340rwkw, effortless power, looks totally stock, sounds stock (no annoying whine unless its ya misses in the passenger seat after your frying the tyres through 1st n 2nd as this thing can easily do, even in the hot weather :lol:)

Even if the Cops pull you over they wouldnt even have a clue what has been done, not like it has a whining blower sitting pretty on top.

Not sure on exact prices of the blower.. but i know this is considerably cheaper and IMO far more effective :) Put the money aside that u save into buying some tyres :jester:

Good Work Street Tuna

[WHLS1]

Tone,

Check out the Alan Mance forum as they will have just the thing for you - all talk no action.

Bite the bullet and do it or chat how you are gunna do it on the Alan Mance forum.

[Titanium]

. . . .
i backed it up with Driving a proven 12 second VE SSV with a 12 second package and OTR, although still quick and a load of fun to boot around, it is definetly no match compared to the ADR TT's and far less noise. . . . .

Would that be a $2800 12.965 second package with an OTR AND track rubber? Or the $2800 package on OEM rubber that has not run in the 12's?

[SIG-054]

Would that be a $2800 12.965 second package with an OTR AND track rubber? Or the $2800 package on OEM rubber that has not run in the 12's?

Who cares man, seriously.. why are you discrediting the 12 second package?

I think ull find that Martins Wife actually drove it to Heathcote from Adelaide... Raced it with some different tyres to prevent axel tramp and breaking something, so she could drive it home.. not bad for a chick..

Its not like your head and cam 300rwkw car that struggles for 110mph, this one has the slip and drives everday with a stock engine, maybe you should have got a better tune....

Anyways.. the TT is much much quicker.

[ATTNSEEKR]

oh id be pissed if i had 300rwkw and struggled 110mph, thats less then mafless tuned cars.

End up test driving the S/C'ed car yet tone? be interesting to hear your comparisons on the 2 packages:)

[Uncle Tone]

Tone,

Check out the Alan Mance forum as they will have just the thing for you - all talk no action.

Bite the bullet and do it or chat how you are gunna do it on the Alan Mance forum.

How about you come back to me when you actually OWN a VE, eh? :flip3:


I think ull find that Martins Wife actually drove it to Heathcote from Adelaide... Raced it with some different tyres to prevent axel tramp and breaking something, so she could drive it home.. not bad for a chick..

Do we really have to rehash all those "With his missus in control, Tunas package only lasts 12 seconds" jokes again? :doh:


Its not like your head and cam 300rwkw car that struggles for 110mph, this one has the slip and drives everday with a stock engine, maybe you should have got a better tune....

Now now....don't go dissing Tittys 12 second ON STREET TYRES package :nutkick:


whoa.. not sure where you got that one U.T.. No Shortage of Engines damaged with a S/C..

I was talking about the Harrop kits only rather than anything from a little Gen PD to a 16/71 mate :D


After test driving a fully ADR approved kitted VE Twin Turbo today, all i can say is these things Rule on the street!

Boost comes on pretty strong from low revs, filling the midrage torque that the NA VE engine misses. The thing is so quiet, no one will ever know u are driving a boosted car, not even your partner if u dont tell her :lol:

Even driving in todays high 30 degree temps with the aircon on full, i could not fault the car as the inlet temps were only slightly higher than an NA car with an OTR.

i backed it up with Driving a proven 12 second VE SSV with a 12 second package and OTR, although still quick and a load of fun to boot around, it is definetly no match compared to the ADR TT's and far less noise.

What else could u want UT? roughly 340rwkw, effortless power, looks totally stock, sounds stock (no annoying whine unless its ya misses in the passenger seat after your frying the tyres through 1st n 2nd as this thing can easily do, even in the hot weather :lol:)

Even if the Cops pull you over they wouldnt even have a clue what has been done, not like it has a whining blower sitting pretty on top.

Not sure on exact prices of the blower.. but i know this is considerably cheaper and IMO far more effective :) Put the money aside that u save into buying some tyres :jester:

Good Work Street Tuna

It is good work from Tuna definitely, especially the ADR compliance!! :bravo: However I still have some niggling doubts that might steer me away from this kit. As I understand it, you have to cut the car to fit it. Also, I'm scared that the cooling system in a VE won't handle having an intercooler in front of it (I know the tests have been done, blah blah, but I'm still concerned) as I've heard that the VE hasn't got much excess capacity built into the system. I'm concerned about wastegate malfunction resulting in overboosting. I'm very worried about what those turbos do to the oil temperature!! Also, part of the attraction of the turbo kit was that if I chose to do so, I could upgrade the exhaust and turn the wick up, and get some huge power out of it. As Justice has pointed out, the kit only comes with the small turbos. I guess this means that the larger turbos aren't part of the complianced kit, so no big power potential :(

Considering all of this, it might make sense to go with the Harrop 122 kit, as its complianced, power all over the place, and its much easier for a DIY'er to install. It also looks heaps better under the bonnet.....and lets face it, it does sound bloody good, the whine of the blower, and what comes out of the tailpipe. The turbos sound pretty pox in comparison.

The only thing that would steer me back to the turbos is if they made significantly more power than the 122. SOTP wise. But since the kit comes with the smaller turbos I doubt whether this will be the case :(

[SIG-054]

looks like you just answered your own question then.. Harrop for you.

Enjoy.

[Martin_D]

Good to see you have finally made a decision Tone, this sure has been an interesting thread! I think that whatever way you go it is going to be a lot better than what you have now. However, just to escape confusion I do want to correct you on several assumptions you have made that are plain wrong. This will relieve any misconceptions in future, and why it is indeed important to have hands on experience with a product before judging it. They are -

1) There is no cutting of the cars structure required to fit the Gen-TT/R Intercooled twin turbo system. You DO need to cut a cigarette packet sized piece out of each plastic inner guard liner but that is it. The material removed from the guard liner is not visible from outside the vehicle.

2) The VE has a far superior cooling system to VT - VZ. Larger more efficient radiator, better fans, and larger capacity. It certainly poses an interesting situation though. Our engineering take is that less overall thermal load is put on the engine by putting an intercooler up front and putting charge air at 5 - 10 degC over ambient into the engine, rather than allowing inlet temps of up to and over 100 degC. That increased combustion temp goes somewhere....most of it directly into the cooling system, with the resulting increased thermal load :teach:

3) Wastegate malfunction or user tampering can result in increased boost levels, certainly some that could be considered unsafe. This is why we had HP Tuners write an 'Overboost Cutout' into our SD 2 bar operating system. Exceed what we consider to be safe boost - the engine cuts, no harm done, and plenty of chance to get to a service centre for rectification :)

4) Oil temperature control of these engines is poor out of the factory as they are only designed for light duty application. A standard car on a race track will clock over 150deg C in the oil after only a couple of laps. We would certainly recommend an oil cooler for any circuit or road racing application (even a totally standard car), but do not consider our flow rate of 1.5 - 2 litres per minute through the Gen-TT turbocharger system (particularly when the cores are water cooled) would add greatly to the thermal load or really influence the engines overall oil temperature greatly. Factor in a greater overall oil capacity of 1250ml with the Gen-TT system in place which also gives greater cooling potential :)

5) All Gen-TT turbocharger systems for VE Commodore now come with the GTDW2840 series 400hp per unit turbocharger in place. We made this standard across the range a couple of months ago

6) Sound comes down to personal preference. To suggest that our application sounds 'pox' when you have indeed never heard one is probably an excellent example of the intent of the thread, and why I havent bothered posting so far, only to clear up misinformation which others might actually read and believe. Unfortunately the cold hard reality is that to pass an ADR drive by noise test both UNDERBONNET and TAILPIPE noise HAS TO BE no louder than stock, there is no buffer zone of increased noise to play with particularly on a HSV. We can indeed achieve that in a Gen-TT Intercooled Twin Turbo installation using the stock exhaust system....just. In fact even the wrong choice in tyre can generate enough 'background noise' to see a fail in the drive-by which is an indictation of its sensitivity. Draw from that any conclusions that you will, but ADR2800 series noise testing is all part of the process of doing the job properly if it is legality you seek :teach:

In summary then, good luck on whatever it is you buy, it surely will be an improvement over a stock car. We are certainly comfortable in our ability to generate over 350rwkw through a VE for a $9990 drive away price, so as you can clearly see when it comes to dollars versus results both turbocharger and supercharger are at very different ends of the spectrum, and in some ways are not even directly comparable :eek:

Anyway, Good Luck :)

[6LtrLimo]

Sensible answer Tuna..... All based on FACT. It would be good to see more posts like this from everyone involved.

What I dont understand is the bit about the cooling system. How is having 100 degrees air temp coming into the engine from a supercharger going to make the radiator work harder?

Tuna or WP please explain ?

[TUFFIE]

Who cares man, seriously.. why are you discrediting the 12 second package?

I think ull find that Martins Wife actually drove it to Heathcote from Adelaide... Raced it with some different tyres to prevent axel tramp and breaking something, so she could drive it home.. not bad for a chick..

Its not like your head and cam 300rwkw car that struggles for 110mph, this one has the slip and drives everday with a stock engine, maybe you should have got a better tune....

Anyways.. the TT is much much quicker.

Well we care mate..
Are you making these statements/excuses based on fact or is it based on what you have read? cause there is a big difference. As for racing it on different rubber... all I can say is a picture says a 1000 words so lets not go there.

Mate I must ask... you seem to know a lot about who's car's doing what? I can tell you here and now..the facts are his 299.5 Rwkw package did not struggle to do 110 mph on STREET rubber. Its called wheel spin and this car gets drive everyday all day.. again this is Fact. not something I have read.

As far as getting a better tune.. Please indulge us... where in your openion should it be taken for a tune?? seeing as you seem to know a lot of facts...:confused:

Now back to the point of this thread..UT this thread has certainly raised some very interesting points for both options... good work. I will be very interested to see what the final outcome will be.

[Martin_D]

What I dont understand is the bit about the cooling system. How is having 100 degrees air temp coming into the engine from a supercharger going to make the radiator work harder?
Tuna or WP please explain ?

Maybe this question would be best for another thread, rather than adding into the mix here, as one would expect its spiralling off course pretty quickly :)

In short though the whole essence of intercooling from a thermal viewpoint is to control the temperature of the combustion process. Every degree celcius saved at the inlet adds up to roughly a single degree saved at the exhaust valve. This has all sorts of different tuning - and most importantly engine durability - effects and results, but the reality is that the engine will scrub the heat from combustion some of which will be radiated through the block and partially absorbed by the cooling system, some of which will escape via the exhaust etc. Hot inlet temps = Hot coolant temps, that is just plain physics :teach:

Its the balancing act of juggling intercooling versus coolant heat loading that is the trick. Looks can in fact be deceiving though. In the case of the VE we use a wide FPI (Fins per inch) intercooler which has great flow through capability which occupies around 50% of the engines frontal air path - i.e. 50% of the radiators potential incoming air sees the intercooler. This is about the right balance. Which is why some of the bigger intercoolers you see that cover the entire frontal opening of the car and are often proclaimed as the 'best' will never work in a real world environment. Put simply the sums havent been 'done' or the testing carried out to see how the heat shed equation works. :eek:

What Tone COULD have done - and still can do - is get out the ruler measure both the superchargers and turbochargers intercooler (or in the case of the supercharger intercooler radiator) dimensions, come up with a frontal airflow percentage for each, and then multiply a weighting of the cooling FPI of each to determine an overall engine cooling restriction or bias. Factor in the temperature difference of each inlet charge and then draw your own conclusion. There are no free lunches in this game, and often to Pay Paul, you Rob Peter.....which is why forced induction design and testing is a job for engineers, and the best 'kit' is normally the most balanced compromise :teach:

[Titanium]

Who cares man, seriously.. why are you discrediting the 12 second package?

I think ull find that Martins Wife actually drove it to Heathcote from Adelaide... Raced it with some different tyres to prevent axel tramp and breaking something, so she could drive it home.. not bad for a chick..

Its not like your head and cam 300rwkw car that struggles for 110mph, this one has the slip and drives everday with a stock engine, maybe you should have got a better tune....

Anyways.. the TT is much much quicker.

All the customers care man, who purchase a $2800 12 second package (flat 13.0) and can get no where near the times, cause they also NEED track rubber and tires to achieve the stated "12 second time"

They only timeslip posted and photos posted are a $2800 12 second package running on track rubber. Rubber to fix axle tramp - bollox... was there to help it into the 12.965 second bracket, it is a 13+ second car with out track rubber, it has been posted on here by the shop that it would be in the 13's without rubber.

Head and cam car ... shows just what you know, which is SFA. Very happy with my tune from a respectable shop here in Melbourne which has always delivered on the promise of the work being done.

Struggles for 110 mph ... what facts do you base this on? a 1.8 60 footer in a manual is not struggling once again you know SFA.

At least I drove my manual car to the track, ran it as it arrived on OEM rims and rubber, laid a 12.9 flat and drove it home again (did not need my wife to do it for me).

No chance of breaking anything either, you elude to the $2800 12.965 second package in an auto with track rubber and lady driver is so fragile it might break something? ..... hmmm sounds like an issue somewhere with that package.

Sounds like you based all your statements on hearsay! Not facts .....

[6LtrLimo]

You say your intercooler takes only 50% or so of the incoming air, it looks like it takes up the whole front to me.

[Martin_D]

You say your intercooler takes only 50% or so of the incoming air, it looks like it takes up the whole front to me.

Have another look.....like I said looks can be deceiving :teach:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/radcool.jpg

[6LtrLimo]

All the customers care man, who purchase a $2800 12 second package (flat 13.0) and can get no where near the times, cause they also NEED track rubber and tires to achieve the stated "12 second time"

They only timeslip posted and photos posted are a $2800 12 second package running on track rubber. Rubber to fix axle tramp - bollox... was there to help it into the 12.965 second bracket, it is a 13+ second car with out track rubber, it has been posted on here by the shop that it would be in the 13's without rubber.

Head and cam car ... shows just what you know, which is SFA. Very happy with my tune from a respectable shop here in Melbourne which has always delivered on the promise of the work being done.

Struggles for 110 mph ... what facts do you base this on? a 1.8 60 footer in a manual is not struggling once again you know SFA.

At least I drove my manual car to the track, ran it as it arrived on OEM rims and rubber, laid a 12.9 flat and drove it home again (did not need my wife to do it for me).

No chance of breaking anything either, you elude to the $2800 12.965 second package in an auto with track rubber and lady driver is so fragile it might break something? ..... hmmm sounds like an issue somewhere with that package.

Sounds like you based all your statements on hearsay! Not facts .....


Why is it the same handful of trouble makers that want to destroy any post on here waffling on about their 13 second cars. WHO CARES ???

Go start a thread "MY 13 SECOND CAR IS FASTER THAN YOUR 13 SECOND CAR"........

[pagey]

ah.. good old tin man is back... :)


http://www.t-shirthumor.com/Merchant2/graphics/thumbs/ohab_sm.gif

300rwkw & 12.9... gotta be happy with that.

Ok Tone.. now get on with the work and get some FI into you..!

[RED R8]

I still think Tone you need to park you bum in a TT car and a Harrop car and judge for yourself I think you would instantly know which ones for you..

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

Why is it the same handful of trouble makers that want to destroy any post on here waffling on about their 13 second cars. WHO CARES ???

Go start a thread "MY 13 SECOND CAR IS FASTER THAN YOUR 13 SECOND CAR"........

is A 13 SEC car worth talking about in this day and age of 9-10 sec ones ???

[Uncle Tone]

Good to see you have finally made a decision Tone, this sure has been an interesting thread! I think that whatever way you go it is going to be a lot better than what you have now. However, just to escape confusion I do want to correct you on several assumptions you have made that are plain wrong.

Righto, lets hear them then. :D

Edit: OOPS, there they are below!! :lol:


1) There is no cutting of the cars structure required to fit the Gen-TT/R Intercooled twin turbo system. You DO need to cut a cigarette packet sized piece out of each plastic inner guard liner but that is it. The material removed from the guard liner is not visible from outside the vehicle.

Cutting is cutting.....but I guess its only minor. Why do you need to cut the guard liner? Any pics?


2) The VE has a far superior cooling system to VT - VZ. Larger more efficient radiator, better fans, and larger capacity. It certainly poses an interesting situation though. Our engineering take is that less overall thermal load is put on the engine by putting an intercooler up front and putting charge air at 5 - 10 degC over ambient into the engine, rather than allowing inlet temps of up to and over 100 degC. That increased combustion temp goes somewhere....most of it directly into the cooling system, with the resulting increased thermal load :teach:

You definitely need an intercooler. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm worried that the car won't cope very well, thats all. Idling away in 40 degree heat in peak hour traffic with little Katie in the car worrying about whether the car is going to make it home or not..... :errr: Actually before Katie came along I wouldn't have thought that way. But now i do!! Surely you can appreciate my concern?

I'm sure someone on this forum that actually has access to Holdens own information posted that the VE's cooling system is close to its limits. I'll see if I can find the info again.


3) Wastegate malfunction or user tampering can result in increased boost levels, certainly some that could be considered unsafe. This is why we had HP Tuners write an 'Overboost Cutout' into our SD 2 bar operating system. Exceed what we consider to be safe boost - the engine cuts, no harm done, and plenty of chance to get to a service centre for rectification :) This I wansn't aware of. I don't think you've mentioned this before, have you? In which case, my concerns are void!! :yahoo:

But....is this feature in the ADR complied kit? Doesn't that kit run the maf?


4) Oil temperature control of these engines is poor out of the factory as they are only designed for light duty application. A standard car on a race track will clock over 150deg C in the oil after only a couple of laps. We would certainly recommend an oil cooler for any circuit or road racing application (even a totally standard car), but do not consider our flow rate of 1.5 - 2 litres per minute through the Gen-TT turbocharger system (particularly when the cores are water cooled) would add greatly to the thermal load or really influence the engines overall oil temperature greatly. Factor in a greater overall oil capacity of 1250ml with the Gen-TT system in place which also gives greater cooling potential :)

I noticed oil temps rise with spirited driving, hence my concern. So an oil cooler is recommended? What would this add to the cost? Have you measured the temperature the oil comes out of the cores? All I'm worried about here is oil degradation, adding to my concerns about the increased temp. Do you recommend any particular oil when you bolt turbos on?


5) All Gen-TT turbocharger systems for VE Commodore now come with the GTDW2840 series 400hp per unit turbocharger in place. We made this standard across the range a couple of months ago

I thought Justice said that the turbos fitted were the small ones. If this is indeed the case, then would you say with exhaust and tune (still safe of course) changes, that 400rwkw is well within the ADR complied kits capability? If this is so then I have no concerns here either!! :D


6) Sound comes down to personal preference. To suggest that our application sounds 'pox' when you have indeed never heard one is probably an excellent example of the intent of the thread, and why I havent bothered posting so far, only to clear up misinformation which others might actually read and believe. Unfortunately the cold hard reality is that to pass an ADR drive by noise test both UNDERBONNET and TAILPIPE noise HAS TO BE no louder than stock, there is no buffer zone of increased noise to play with particularly on a HSV. We can indeed achieve that in a Gen-TT Intercooled Twin Turbo installation using the stock exhaust system....just. In fact even the wrong choice in tyre can generate enough 'background noise' to see a fail in the drive-by which is an indictation of its sensitivity. Draw from that any conclusions that you will, but ADR2800 series noise testing is all part of the process of doing the job properly if it is legality you seek :teach:

Sorry Tuna, but in my (and many others) opinion it does sound pox. I've heard Gen TT cars. JezzaB and Zozza both have your kits down here, remember! :slap: Thats just the nature of the hardware. Nothing anybody can do about that, not even your good self. A blown car sounds much better than a turbo car, ADR complied or not, the note out of the tailpipe vastly different.

Yeah, and the only intent of this thread was to say the Gen TT sounds pox, wasn't it.....Mate, a bit of paranoia there :stick:


In summary then, good luck on whatever it is you buy, it surely will be an improvement over a stock car. We are certainly comfortable in our ability to generate over 350rwkw through a VE for a $9990 drive away price, so as you can clearly see when it comes to dollars versus results both turbocharger and supercharger are at very different ends of the spectrum, and in some ways are not even directly comparable :eek:

Anyway, Good Luck :)

So are you saying that you can make much more power from the turbos or not???

Anyway I haven't made my mind up quite yet. As we all discussed yesterday, and pointed out to me by many people, I'm still biased towards your kit....which in turn makes me more inquisitive when it comes to it. Sorry if that bothers you. I know you're doing well with your kits so probably can't be arsed with convincing just one person, but its a nice car, and I don't want to wreck it by slapping anything on that is supposed to be the happening thing. Fair enough? :)

[6LtrLimo]

is A 13 SEC car worth talking about in this day and age of 9-10 sec ones ???

In my personal opinion - NO.

18 months ago - the benchmark within the LSx community was 11 second ET's and lower.

Now, with the changing demographics of these forums and the rapid influx of google-educated youngsters, the benchmark has been lowered so that 13 and 14 second showroom cars are deemed as " full house drag cars "

Ive never seen so much BS in my life - not since 2000/2001 was a MAF tune, a cat back exhaust and a 13 sec time slip deemed groundbreaking....

I guess what is old is new again.

[Uncle Tone]

I still think Tone you need to park you bum in a TT car and a Harrop car and judge for yourself I think you would instantly know which ones for you..

As soon as possible (hopefully straight after new years) I will be searching out both kits and doing a very thorough road teat on them. Skipper has offered the Harrop kits, but I'm yet to see a completed Gen TT car offered up. Tuna says Phonsy may have one soon, but I'm guessing everyone wants holidays, so I might be a bit stuck for a Gen TT in Vic atm.


is A 13 SEC car worth talking about in this day and age of 9-10 sec ones ???

Yep. They are in the vast majority. The 9-10 second cars don't represent even 1% of the people on here....in reality those are the ones we shouldn't be talking about.

And don't forget the sponsors, who make their money from tunes and zorsts mostly. They would all close if it wasn't for this group. Do you want that to happen? Hmmm? :toetap:

[Ken]

I preface my comments below by stating that I am not "having a go" at Tuna ... I just need to set the record straight.


snip... Our engineering take is that less overall thermal load is put on the engine by putting an intercooler up front and putting charge air at 5 - 10 degC over ambient into the engine, rather than allowing inlet temps of up to and over 100 degC ...snip
Tuna ... Apparently you have not had much experience with our new HH122. To achieve inlet temps anywhere near 100C with the HH122 would require some significant & deliberate abuse. Perhaps with multiple dyno runs without a cooling fan, and after letting the vehicle "soak" for an extended period, it is possible ... but in the real world we typically see temps at the intake port which are only slightly higher than NA cars.


... so as you can clearly see when it comes to dollars versus results both turbocharger and supercharger are at very different ends of the spectrum, and in some ways are not even directly comparable
At least we can agree on something ... :nyuk::stick::lmao::lmao:



Sensible answer Tuna..... All based on FACT. It would be good to see more posts like this from everyone involved.
What I dont understand is the bit about the cooling system. How is having 100 degrees air temp coming into the engine from a supercharger going to make the radiator work harder? Tuna or WP please explain ?
As above ... not entirely factual.
Also ... The air coming out of the turbo is cooled via the intercooler (obviously), which means that the hot air extracted from the charge is then passing through the engine radiator and into the engine bay. As tuna says ... there is no free lunch, the energy (heat) must go somewhere. Supercharger or turbo ... the heat is still needing to be extracted and are both fundamentally done by radiation.


snip ... which occupies around 50% of the engines frontal air path - i.e. 50% of the radiators potential incoming air sees the intercooler.
snip.... is get out the ruler measure both the superchargers and turbochargers intercooler (or in the case of the supercharger intercooler radiator) dimensions, come up with a frontal airflow percentage for each, and then multiply a weighting of the cooling FPI of each to determine an overall engine cooling restriction or bias. ...snip
This opens a whole other discussion point ...
Although the area shown in the image appears to equate to less than half the engine radiator facing, our testing has shown that most of the air entering the cooling area
comes in via the lower half of the opening. On most of the non-HSV vehicles I have worked on, the cosmetic "grill" in the front bar is almost useless and would allow minimal cool air ingress.
Therefore, assuming my observations are correct, the intercooler shown in the image would be very significant in the restriction of uninterupted cool air reaching the engine radiator.
Measurments and fin density are only part of the equation. Pressure drop (flow) and transfer efficency are equally (or more) important.


Have another look.....like I said looks can be deceiving :teach:

Yep ... Certainly can! :rofl:


As soon as possible (hopefully straight after new years) I will be searching out both kits and doing a very thorough road test on them. Skipper has offered the Harrop kits, but I'm yet to see a completed Gen TT car offered up.

Come buy the factory and we can show you a few options, although most of our test mules are also on vacation until ~7th Jan.
Probably best to give Mario a call as he has an HH122 on his Calais and can offer a list of happy owners, or Al at WP who also has a selection.
:)

[Martin_D]

I preface my comments below by stating that I am not "having a go" at Tuna ... I just need to set the record straight.

Indeed your interpretation of the record :cool:


Tuna ... Apparently you have not had much experience with our new HH122. To achieve inlet temps anywhere near 100C with the HH122 would require some significant & deliberate abuse.

The bottom line is this, effective intercooling needs a reasonably sized intercooler. Small intercoolers give small changes in inlet temperature over any decent drive cycle. We consider anything over around Delta 25(degrees over ambient) an engineering problem. Our testing of the Eaton 122 is limited to dyno data gathering/tuning and road testing for a customer. We do indeed have the logs of air temperature delta through an intercooled system at 5psi boost pressure. It did not look to maintain what we consider an acceptable Delta at any time. However our expectations may not be different to yours so this is not intended as a criticism rather an observation :)


On most of the non-HSV vehicles I have worked on, the cosmetic "grill" in the front bar is almost useless and would allow minimal cool air ingress.

Where do you mount your water to air intercooler heat exchanger? :confused:

ANSWERED MY OWN QUESTION - EDIT
Hang on I found a pic of a VEGTS with a HH122 kit on it....and guess what the Harrop intercooler radiator sits in the same place the Gen-TT air to air intercooler does :cool:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/vecoolx.jpg

[wp01]

Guys,don't forget we are talking about 'highly tuned' Hot air Pumps here...

The more heated air you can push out the tailpipe ,the more efficient the intake and general engine temps will be. That is the whole excercise of either N/A,Turbo or Supercharged.

Our 'heat exchanger' mounting position on the E series LS2 cars takes into account the lower 4 rows of the engine radiator that are dedicated for the power steering cooler. Very hi ambient testing has shown that you should not restrict that part of the radiator !

AL

[Titanium]

Hey Uncle Tone,

Fantastic that 2 very well respected Melbourne based sponsors (Harrop & WPP) can get on here, offer up a test ride / drive of their products, answer your questions, have true, tried and tested performance products and
both with ultra strong links to top level motor racing.

Makes everything else look pale in comparison eh.

You need to consider the benefit of buying local and having top notch local support for your performance package of choice.

WPP & Harrop ... thanks for sharing.

[LS1TOY]

hey Tone, If you were at all interested in the talking to GM motorsport i think they are back on deck from the 14th jan.:eyes: its a huge spend so dont be to hasty and trial every avenue prior to forking out your hard earned. just my 2 cents.
Jake,

[Uncle Tone]

Although the area shown in the image appears to equate to less than half the engine radiator facing, our testing has shown that most of the air entering the cooling area
comes in via the lower half of the opening. On most of the non-HSV vehicles I have worked on, the cosmetic "grill" in the front bar is almost useless and would allow minimal cool air ingress.
Therefore, assuming my observations are correct, the intercooler shown in the image would be very significant in the restriction of uninterupted cool air reaching the engine radiator.
Measurments and fin density are only part of the equation. Pressure drop (flow) and transfer efficency are equally (or more) important.

I noticed this as well, which led me to question it. At the very least the fan would be working much harder, coming in earlier. Its worrying, but I guess theres no other alternative when using an air to air of that size.



Come buy the factory and we can show you a few options, although most of our test mules are also on vacation until ~7th Jan.
Probably best to give Mario a call as he has an HH122 on his Calais and can offer a list of happy owners, or Al at WP who also has a selection.
:)

Sounds like a plan.....I'd love to come down and see what you have.


hey Tone, If you were at all interested in the talking to GM motorsport i think they are back on deck from the 14th jan.:eyes: its a huge spend so dont be to hasty and trial every avenue prior to forking out your hard earned. just my 2 cents.
Jake,

Won't be handing out coin till I extensively try BOTH kits (If possible), price them up, and make an educated and unbiased decision based on the merits and shortcomings of both, keeping in mind dollars per rwkw and future tuneability (just in case I want more) :teach:

[pagey]

I personallythink you would be better suited to the Blower Tone..

I think you already have too many questions over the TT and you would always be second guessing.. and ultimately ruining the enjoyment.

Will be good to see u in something fast tho (about time :))

[Uncle Tone]

I personallythink you would be better suited to the Blower Tone..

I think you already have too many questions over the TT and you would always be second guessing.. and ultimately ruining the enjoyment.

Will be good to see u in something fast tho (about time :))

Possibly Pagey. But head says blower, heart says Turbo!!! As I said before I've always been fond of Tunas kits and what he can achieve for the spend. Throw in ADR compliance and its just nearly too good to refuse.....which is why I have the questions. I need re-assuring I guess.

Then theres the 122 kit. Gorgeous, easy to fit compared to the turbo kit, sounds awesome, beautiful under bonnet presentation.....but not as much power produced for the coin. AAAAAHHHH WHAT DO I DO!!!!!! ::banghead:

[OLS108]

I personallythink you would be better suited to the Blower Tone..

I think you already have too many questions over the TT and you would always be second guessing.. and ultimately ruining the enjoyment.

Will be good to see u in something fast tho (about time :))

Agreed, Go the Blower Tone.

Dave

[Martin_D]

AAAAAHHHH WHAT DO I DO!!!!!! ::banghead:

Whatever YOU want to do :cool:

[lablube]

Tone, nice xmas present, wish santa was as generous for me. You mentioned that it is to be a daily driver but thats it. You havent really mentioned HOW you drive it ie application. For example I drop off kids go to work pick up kids go home every day about 30mins each way but all in a 60 km/h zone. My brother does the same but in a 110 km/r zone. Different needs. You need to make a list of what you want out of your car, and tick off each of the requirements, the one with the most ticks meets your needs as apose to your want. As both Harrop and Tuna agrred on each is at different ends of the spectrum. Good luck with your decision. Big presents have big headaches.

[jaykay]

AAAAAHHHH WHAT DO I DO!!!!!! ::banghead:
UT as you are spending that much coin why not jump on a plane to Adelaide and drive ST's TT kit for yourself ?

I would have thought Melbourne to Adelaide wouldn't be that expensive to fly there and back, and you could do it in a day......

Anyway good luck with your decision.

Interesting reading......

JK :)

[Hammer]

in the end tone go for a drive in each. but only go for a drive in a car similar to yours. so you can directly compare it to what yours would be like.

here you go Tone....
from http://jestar.com.au



Melbourne (Avalon) --------->Adelaide (http://www.jetstar.com/skylights/cgi-bin/skylights.cgi?) = $59 one way

[Uncle Tone]

Whatever YOU want to do :cool:

You're not helping Tuna!! :nutkick:

You could help by answering the questions that I posted earlier....cmon mate :stick:

[jaykay]

Melbourne (Avalon) --------->Adelaide = $59 one way
Fark that's cheap.... :bow:

[Martin_D]

You're not helping Tuna!! :nutkick:
You could help by answering the questions that I posted earlier....cmon mate :stick:

Just got to find them in amongst all the other fun :eek:

[Uncle Tone]

Just got to find them in amongst all the other fun :eek:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Post number 65 I think buddy :D

[vuss383]

Tone, Go the TTR Kit & stop being like an old woman !! No noisy screws under the hood to listen too & heaps of grunt on tap ! If you want to drive it like POP's you can do so , bring on the boost & it's all there with NO LAG !!

I just fitted 1 of Martins TTR kits to a customers ute ( was running 12.1 unopened - so no slug ) gave him a low 7 psi boost to get the feel of the TTR's which he was impressed . He has left the ute with me whilst he is away over at Fraser Island for a week so I can experiment with the boos & tune . I told him i'd do a 10 psi for the street & 12 psi for the track , he replied with : 6 psi for the street will be fine thanks !! This should give you some idea of what they drive like ................ INSANE to say the least !

Can't wait to fit my kit to the 383 :smilesandbanana:

Just my thoughts
Troy

[TLX]

UT...happy for you to take my GTS with the new HTV 2300 for a spin when i'm next in Melb putting new fuel system in it:)

[SSidewayz]

I was wondering...

Tuna and Ken can you please give us a clue,

Price of complianced kit with all fitting ect drive in drive out certificate and all?

Power achievable @ what psi with the complianced kit?

Just interested. It would seem that these fiqures are the most important. Because one sounds different in a driveby to another ect. doesnt matter if the kits been complianced thats down to prefrence they both get a certificate. Same as preferance to power delivery ect. When you start getting into further mods/upgrades/boost pressures the lines blur. Simple answers please.
Cheers

[Martin_D]

Here we go, these are the questions :)


Cutting is cutting.....but I guess its only minor. Why do you need to cut the guard liner? Any pics?

Will get you some tomorrow its pretty minor stuff to allow the intercooler pipes to pass through cleanly into the nose of the car. You trim the guard liner with a Stanley knife to facilitate this. Replacement guard liners are around $25 so its no biggie :cool:


You definitely need an intercooler. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm worried that the car won't cope very well, thats all. Idling away in 40 degree heat in peak hour traffic with little Katie in the car worrying about whether the car is going to make it home or not..... :errr: Actually before Katie came along I wouldn't have thought that way. But now i do!! Surely you can appreciate my concern?

As part of our calibration of the Gen-TT VE series we reset the fan duty cycles which makes the car actually run cooler than stock. It is indeed not unusual to see a stock car push up to around 103 deg C stationery on a 40deg C day before the fans 'catch' the coolant temp. I prefer to keep our cars stabilised around 96 - 98 deg C which we can do with the Gen-TT Intercooler in place just by changing the software. This is a calibration 'fix' rather than any significant engineering achievement :)

Where the intercooler does excel is in IAT temperature. Leaving the MAF in the stock position it is possible on a 36 - 38 deg C day to see 44 - 46 IAT on cruise and only sneak into the very low 50s at full noise. Back to back compared to an OTR VE its not that different, and certainly level pegging to a stock car with a stock airbox :cool:


I'm sure someone on this forum that actually has access to Holdens own information posted that the VE's cooling system is close to its limits. I'll see if I can find the info again.

This may have been the 'hot running' calibration I was referring to earlier. Certainly setup correctly this Commodore (VE) has the best cooling system a local car has yet seen with plenty of reserve capacity for power handling :)


This I wansn't aware of. I don't think you've mentioned this before, have you? In which case, my concerns are void!! :yahoo:
But....is this feature in the ADR complied kit? Doesn't that kit run the maf?

Boost cut can still be enabled with the MAF in place :)


I noticed oil temps rise with spirited driving, hence my concern. So an oil cooler is recommended? What would this add to the cost? Have you measured the temperature the oil comes out of the cores? All I'm worried about here is oil degradation, adding to my concerns about the increased temp. Do you recommend any particular oil when you bolt turbos on?

For competition work we would recommend an oil cooler on any VE regardless of modification, and yes we make them :) For road use an engine oil cooler is not required. Core temperature of the turbocharger isnt particularly high as they are liquid cooled, therefore there is no requirement for 'cooling down' etc even after hard driving. Still in any high performance application we always recommend a 10W-60 Synthetic oil for the LSX engine family. Castrol Edge 10W-60 is a great oil for these engines as is the Mainlube 10W-60 (which sees duty in all of our competition cars). We recommend oil change intervals of 5000km with any high performance engine :)


I thought Justice said that the turbos fitted were the small ones. If this is indeed the case, then would you say with exhaust and tune (still safe of course) changes, that 400rwkw is well within the ADR complied kits capability? If this is so then I have no concerns here either!! :D

The turbochargers used in emissions testing were the largest frame size to give our compliance scope. Justice has the smaller turbochargers as he has had the kit for several months before fitment was carried out :lol:


Sorry Tuna, but in my (and many others) opinion it does sound pox. I've heard Gen TT cars. JezzaB and Zozza both have your kits down here, remember! :slap: Thats just the nature of the hardware. Nothing anybody can do about that, not even your good self.

Its horses for course I suppose. I not a fan of the old school hot rod note, and often think 'Here comes an LX Torana with a warm 253' before looking around to see a late model thing trundling down the road. Personally I like the more sophisticated V8 sound that you get from an M5 or AMG etc. However I can see why plenty of people (including the cops) love a cracking loud engine. Like people love lumpy idles....just ask them in 6 months time :eek:

The sound thing though, thats up to you :cool:

[mustanger]

This last post from ST is a very informative one and has answered a few questions :thumbsup:. It is answers like these ,that forum members help make their decisions for their next purchase.:)

[OUTAtheBloo]

Tone drive both cars.

Most importantly pick something you can upgrade later.

Get Video of Giggling when you test drive both cars :D

Dan

[Hammer]

id love to see a vid of tone's face when he drives a ve ttr

[Uncle Tone]

This last post from ST is a very informative one and has answered a few questions :thumbsup:. It is answers like these ,that forum members help make their decisions for their next purchase.:)

I'm speechless!! :shock:

Maybe all you have to do is ask nicely :idea:

Answers, answers. Nice work Tuna.


Will get you some tomorrow its pretty minor stuff to allow the intercooler pipes to pass through cleanly into the nose of the car. You trim the guard liner with a Stanley knife to facilitate this. Replacement guard liners are around $25 so its no biggie :cool: Thanks Tuna. If its only the guard liner that is indeed bugger all.




As part of our calibration of the Gen-TT VE series we reset the fan duty cycles which makes the car actually run cooler than stock. It is indeed not unusual to see a stock car push up to around 103 deg C stationery on a 40deg C day before the fans 'catch' the coolant temp. I prefer to keep our cars stabilised around 96 - 98 deg C which we can do with the Gen-TT Intercooler in place just by changing the software. This is a calibration 'fix' rather than any significant engineering achievement :)

Where the intercooler does excel is in IAT temperature. Leaving the MAF in the stock position it is possible on a 36 - 38 deg C day to see 44 - 46 IAT on cruise and only sneak into the very low 50s at full noise. Back to back compared to an OTR VE its not that different, and certainly level pegging to a stock car with a stock airbox :cool: So you are supremely confident that I will have no cooling issues whatsoever if I fit one of your kits?


Boost cut can still be enabled with the MAF in place :)
If the boost cut can be made active on my car I guess I'll be happy enough with that.




For competition work we would recommend an oil cooler on any VE regardless of modification, and yes we make them :) For road use an engine oil cooler is not required. Core temperature of the turbocharger isnt particularly high as they are liquid cooled, therefore there is no requirement for 'cooling down' etc even after hard driving. Still in any high performance application we always recommend a 10W-60 Synthetic oil for the LSX engine family. Castrol Edge 10W-60 is a great oil for these engines as is the Mainlube 10W-60 (which sees duty in all of our competition cars). We recommend oil change intervals of 5000km with any high performance engine :)

If I wanted to integrate an oil cooler into the install, what would that cost, and where would it need to go?




The turbochargers used in emissions testing were the largest frame size to give our compliance scope. Justice has the smaller turbochargers as he has had the kit for several months before fitment was carried out :lol: Whoops...Poor Justice.. :lol:

So would I be correct in saying the turbos I would get would be the same ones as fitted to the VE ute you are doing, and your own silver VE? The GTDW2840, rather than the smaller GTDW2833, still with full ADR compliance?

Would I be able to crack the 400rwkw mark on my car if I chose to get you to retune it and use a freer flowing exhaust?




Its horses for course I suppose. I not a fan of the old school hot rod note, and often think 'Here comes an LX Torana with a warm 253' before looking around to see a late model thing trundling down the road. Personally I like the more sophisticated V8 sound that you get from an M5 or AMG etc. However I can see why plenty of people (including the cops) love a cracking loud engine. Like people love lumpy idles....just ask them in 6 months time :eek:

The sound thing though, thats up to you :cool:

Don't really care as long as its quiet.

I have some other questions if you don't mind, and if it pleases you :stick:

I have the HM headers upgrade headers and cats. Would these be able to be used when going for ADR's? Or would I have to install my old headers and cats? Would they be of any benefit in chasing additional power at a later date?

I can't find any pics of the exhaust and cat placement anywhere on the forum. Do you have any you could share?

What extra heat insulation do you utilize? Do I need to wrap the aircon pipes, line anything with heat sheilding? Also, do you have any issues with heat radiating from the turbos into the cabin? How would you combat that?

[Martin_D]

Tone, while I didnt get a chance to answer all of your questions today I did indeed get around to most of them. Here is a picture I took earlier in the piece of the 'cutting' required of the inner guard liner to route the intercooler pipes through to the front of the car. As you can see its a fairly minor procedure with a Stanley knife of similar. This is as my ute was going together :)
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/tempcut.jpg
I also have on file a shot of the excellent factory shielding under the car that keeps any heat from the catalytic conveters or turbochargers for that matter away from the cabin. It is excellent stuff, and Holden really have done an excellent job in this regard. There is no extra thermal protection required other than that the factory have gifted us with :bow:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/tempshield.jpg
Being as it was a nasty 42 degree scorcher in Adelaide today I got a chance to carry out some of the real world temperature testing you have requested. While I can sit here for hours and tell you how cool the car runs, nothing speaks as loud as the data that I gathered over a 23 minute drive cycle in the middle of the day. Right on que Adelaide turned up the heat :)
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/tempcruise.jpg
Cruising today at just on (or slightly under as it was a 70 zone) the legal limit is was possible to keep the engine on 95 degrees Celcius and the IAT (remember this is being read through the MAF in near enough the stock position) only slightly above the ambient temperature at the time with the AC set on 20c (It was close to 39 degrees in the shade from all best measurements)
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/tempidle.jpg
Idling with the bonnet down on the side of the road with zero moving airflow for a few minutes as you would expect at a busy intersection the coolant temp climbed to 98 degrees where the fans then come on a 65% duty to maintain this temperature....I then proceeded to let the car sit then and idle for another five minutes before shutting it off and letting it bake...for a long time :cool:
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/tempoff.jpg
Another quarter of an hour down the track with the car sitting in the blistering sun no fans running, no engine running the coolant temp climbed to 104 and the IAT skyrocketed (as you would imagine with the MAF in the engine bay). This is typical for any VE FI or NA when left in a proper heatsoak condition :)
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/temprecover.jpg
Fired back up and left at idle the fans will then kick in at 91% duty and pull the coolant temperature straight back down to 98 deg C and slowly ever so slowly the IAT will come down...thats with the car stationery. Moving the IAT scrubbed back to 50deg C (from which point it will fall slowly back to around 43 again) in 4 minutes :)

I hope that puts your mind to rest about any temperature concerns you might have had with our Gen-TT VE Intercooled Twin Turbocharger system :teach:

[Sonnymad]

Thats fantatstic to see "real " world conditions being publicly posted :thumbsup:

regards sonny

[Hammer]

Martin is always on the "money shots" good stuff

[Uncle Tone]

Tone, while I didnt get a chance to answer all of your questions today I did indeed get around to most of them.

I hope that puts your mind to rest about any temperature concerns you might have had with our Gen-TT VE Intercooled Twin Turbocharger system :teach:

Yes indeed Tuna. My mind is put to rest in regards to the temperature concerns I might have had with your Gen-TT VE Intercooled Twin Turbocharger system :teach:

I appreciate your efforts mate .:bravo: Look forward to the rest of the questions being answered. If it pleases you sir :stick: :lol:

After that its just a couple of test drives and then decision time!! :errr:

[pagey]

Forget Auro Emissions approval.. If the GenTT manages to get U.T Approval - that will indeed be a mighty effort.

GenTT U.T Approved.

[seedyrom]

hey tone, doing the install yourself?

[Martin_D]

I'm speechless!! :shock:
Maybe all you have to do is ask nicely :idea:
Answers, answers. Nice work Tuna.

Thats what we are here for :)


If I wanted to integrate an oil cooler into the install, what would that cost, and where would it need to go?

Right behind the Holden badge -
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/oilcool.jpg
We sell the VE complete oil cooler kits for $850


Would I be able to crack the 400rwkw mark on my car if I chose to get you to retune it and use a freer flowing exhaust?

Yes we have seen this figure :)


I have the HM headers upgrade headers and cats. Would these be able to be used when going for ADR's? Or would I have to install my old headers and cats? Would they be of any benefit in chasing additional power at a later date?

We will supply you our cast manifolds with the kit, so you can sell the HM Headers if you want. I am not sure how the HM cats would go, but we tested with the factory part in place. Cat placement is directly off the back of the dump pipes :)

[Uncle Tone]

Thanks Tuna. :bravo:

Well people, 400 safe rwkw is certainly nothing to sneeze at, especially if its produced by a kit that is ADR complianced (with exhaust and tune changes) I can't think of anything else that I need to know at the moment.....can anybody else?


hey tone, doing the install yourself?

I want to, I'm more than capable....but its a bit hard without a hoist. I was originally going to wait until I built my new house so I have my hoist to do the install, but I want the FI kit on a bit sooner than that :D

Thats what makes the Harrop kit so attractive. Just plonk it between the rocker covers and basically thats it!! I can easily do that where I'm living now. The Gen TT is a bit more involved than that.

[seedyrom]

you'd be amazed what you can do with a couple of k-mart axle stands ;)

[heavychevy]

Excellent posts from ST.

I'm thinking whoever gets the deal will be framing a copy of the check.
It's like watching a sheepdog trying to herd a cat! :)

[Uncle Tone]

you'd be amazed what you can do with a couple of k-mart axle stands ;)

I'm not really a fan of lying under cars in a driveway......


Actually, maybe I can get Tuffy to do that bit!! :lmao:

[vuss383]

The big question is Tone ................. Was it for this Xmas or you waiting untill Xmas 08 :rofl:

[Uncle Tone]

The big question is Tone ................. Was it for this Xmas or you waiting untill Xmas 08 :rofl:

Thats not a big question :nutkick: As soon as all doubts are addressed and test driving is done, I'll be buying the kit straight away.

[RED R8]

Must say Tone (surprisingly) this has turned out to be a very informative thread and alot more has been shown and explained about the systems out there and some ggod questions answered it. Look forward to hearing about the test drives.

[Freebaggin]

Must say Tone (surprisingly) this has turned out to be a very informative thread and alot more has been shown and explained about the systems out there and some ggod questions answered it. Look forward to hearing about the test drives.

Agreed re thread info, good stuff.

[wp01]

Below is an article from the UK,on our Euro3 VXR8 (minus the exhaust) compliant M112 package..

AL

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_rBqCFjnb8)

[Justice R8]

Thanks Tuna. :bravo:

Well people, 400 safe rwkw is certainly nothing to sneeze at, especially if its produced by a kit that is ADR complianced (with exhaust and tune changes) I can't think of anything else that I need to know at the moment.....can anybody else?



I want to, I'm more than capable....but its a bit hard without a hoist. I was originally going to wait until I built my new house so I have my hoist to do the install, but I want the FI kit on a bit sooner than that :D

Thats what makes the Harrop kit so attractive. Just plonk it between the rocker covers and basically thats it!! I can easily do that where I'm living now. The Gen TT is a bit more involved than that.

Tone

Lets be clear. There is no such thing as a safe 400rwkw. Its a myth, a fallacy or what ever else you want to call it. I dont care if the engine is built by god himself. There can aways be a problem crop up. There are no garuntees in life mate.

As far as fitting goes I dont see that much difference between the two different options on the VE either turbos or blower. As I said before I have driven both kits. I elected the turbos for a few reasons I stated earlier. My girlfriends car was never done aiming to win HP heros. It has got plenty of stick at 330rwkw or whatever it has on a nice warm day. I have no problems taking someone on a drive now and saying this is what you get with a basic kit. With the new turbos they will get more than they expect and will be overwhelmed instead of underwhelmed. Internet talk can sometimes over hype a product as we saw with Keen. His expectations were so high they were never going to be met as he already had a fast NA car. Had it been a stocker he would have loved it with the small turbos.

I have driven both kits on hot days and after flogging both on a freeway, boosting up to the limit and slowing then boosting again felt that the turbos recovered a lot better from that sort of extreme driving. I think you will be hard pressed either way tone with both kits and it will come down to price.

My gilfriends car took a total of 2 days to fit and tune which is on par with any other VE.

PS just got pulled over for RBT on m7 freeway. Lady cop said nice big front mount, which is the only giveaway hence I will paint it black. The engine bay looks relatively stock and all my non car mates dont believe it has turbos when looking in the ngine bay.

As i say potatoe or potato. price will be your biggest influencing factor for the VE. The great thing with the VE is no matter which way you go you dont HAVE to have a fuel system added. Just watched one pull 400rwkw on a standard fuel system. Cheap and easy power.

[SSidewayz]

Another question I have is, to be complianced, can you DIY these kits. I would have thought that it would need to be fitted by a shop? Then the shop would do the paperwork? How do you go about getting the certificate if you DIY?
Cheers

[KeenGolfer]

Another question I have is, to be complianced, can you DIY these kits. I would have thought that it would need to be fitted by a shop? Then the shop would do the paperwork? How do you go about getting the certificate if you DIY?
Cheers

With *any* complianced kit (AFAIK) you still need to get an engineers certificate for your vehicle which will add $$$ ($500 odd couple of times I've done it). Please correct me if I am wrong.

[wp01]

With *any* complianced kit (AFAIK) you still need to get an engineers certificate for your vehicle which will add $$$ ($500 odd couple of times I've done it). Please correct me if I am wrong.

That is correct. The installation and componenets must mimic the original complianced vehicle,the specific engineer will determine that.

AL

[SSidewayz]

Yeah thats what I thought, another thing that maybe Tone should consider? If he didnt know that already that is.

[Uncle Tone]

Tone

Lets be clear. There is no such thing as a safe 400rwkw. Its a myth, a fallacy or what ever else you want to call it. I dont care if the engine is built by god himself. There can aways be a problem crop up. There are no garuntees in life mate.

As far as fitting goes I dont see that much difference between the two different options on the VE either turbos or blower. As I said before I have driven both kits. I elected the turbos for a few reasons I stated earlier. My girlfriends car was never done aiming to win HP heros. It has got plenty of stick at 330rwkw or whatever it has on a nice warm day. I have no problems taking someone on a drive now and saying this is what you get with a basic kit. With the new turbos they will get more than they expect and will be overwhelmed instead of underwhelmed. Internet talk can sometimes over hype a product as we saw with Keen. His expectations were so high they were never going to be met as he already had a fast NA car. Had it been a stocker he would have loved it with the small turbos.

I have driven both kits on hot days and after flogging both on a freeway, boosting up to the limit and slowing then boosting again felt that the turbos recovered a lot better from that sort of extreme driving. I think you will be hard pressed either way tone with both kits and it will come down to price.

My gilfriends car took a total of 2 days to fit and tune which is on par with any other VE.

PS just got pulled over for RBT on m7 freeway. Lady cop said nice big front mount, which is the only giveaway hence I will paint it black. The engine bay looks relatively stock and all my non car mates dont believe it has turbos when looking in the ngine bay.

As i say potatoe or potato. price will be your biggest influencing factor for the VE. The great thing with the VE is no matter which way you go you dont HAVE to have a fuel system added. Just watched one pull 400rwkw on a standard fuel system. Cheap and easy power.

Bloody good news about the fuel system!! So looks like I'm covered either way....400rwkw would be my target power level eventually.

I don't think I'll have any concerns with reliability at that level......I don't thrash my car, as many who have seen me drive will attest. For the relatively few times I'll be revving it over 1500rpm I think I'll be pretty safe.

If what Tuna says is correct (and I don't have any reason to doubt him, until my car breaks down! :lmao:) then turbo or blower my car will be as reliable as a stock one. I have confidence in that. Probably more piece of mind with the Harrop as its not as complex, but then you'll get more power out of the turbos, so a choice has to be made.

I agree about the hype thing. I hope I'm not disappointed when I drive the turbo car, as most of the hype has turbo written all over it.

Same with the blower (minus the hype, of course!) :lmao:

I got asked last night if I had any reliability concerns with the Harrop 122 kit, as most of my questions have been about turbos......and to be honest I can't think of anything!!

I would like to see some official power figures/specs for both the kits though.....so far they have proved very difficult to obtain!!

Guys? :stick:


Yeah thats what I thought, another thing that maybe Tone should consider? If he didnt know that already that is.

I would have thought that would have been included if the kits are advertised as complianced.

I hope it is!! :vpo:

[Redline]

I would like to see some official power figures/specs for both the kits though.....so far they have proved very difficult to obtain!!

Guys? :stick:

I didn't find this hard to obtain mate ;)

http://www.ls1turbo.com.au/au/ve_gentt.html

[Uncle Tone]

I didn't find this hard to obtain mate ;)

http://www.ls1turbo.com.au/au/ve_gentt.html

I meant of course the ADR compliant versions of the kits :)

[EXCESSV]

I didn't find this hard to obtain mate ;)

http://www.ls1turbo.com.au/au/ve_gentt.htmlthats not the ADR compliant kit....as it has the aftermarket exhaust which the compliant kit doesnt have coz it uses the stock exhaust

EDIT....Tone beat me to it :doh:

[GETUTED]

330rwkw or so
see post 109 :confused:

[Uncle Tone]

330rwkw or so
see post 109 :confused:

Thats hardly a dyno sheet showing at what revs the torque is greatest, and at what rev range the rwkw is fattest though is it? :slap:

We all know how much I love dyno sheets :lol:

[Ken]

...snip ... I would like to see some official power figures/specs for both the kits though.....so far they have proved very difficult to obtain!!
Guys? :stick:

I would have thought that would have been included if the kits are advertised as complianced. I hope it is!! :vpo:

Dyno graphs are probably best posted by our customers ... then there can be no doubt about "hype" vs. "actual". I am sure either Mario, or Al, or Sam, or Sonny can help with this. You can probably watch it happen at their workshops too. :)

I am sure it is poosible with either solution ... that the installer can have the compliance/engineering done before delivery. It will simply be reflected in the price.
:1peek:

[HSVQUE]

ok i just watched that youtube vid.. has that car basically got the 122 stage 2 walkinshaw kit of a lesser version?

[11SLI]

I know the VE GenTT package have different sized turbos to the original GenTT KKR330s that first came out, but my VU SS on 14psi with 9:0 compression fully built motor etc etc with a 224/230@112 Cam made a a solid and healthy 340rwkw, before it saw the KKR330s run outta puff.. Fair enough it might be able to squeeze a few extra jigawatts out of her but whats the point...
340rwkw is still a hell of a drive in any conditions especially in a ute with a 6spd behind her..

I hardly even rev mine past 5000rpm either as im probably a bit like urself when it comes to driving Tone, but all in all, with the Eboost2 set with 3 settings (8, 11, 14psi) you have the boost at ur fingers and right foot..
400rwkw would be an awesome drive, so i say go for it :bow: :)

[10-ESI]

ok i just watched that youtube vid.. has that car basically got the 122 stage 2 walkinshaw kit of a lesser version?
just checked out the you tube clip..looked like a lot of fun. just one thing that amuses me tho is everyones obsession with power levels.... not bagging anyone here as im in the build process now(r8 turbo build) its just the fun value,driveability etc will be different for everyone dependent on your budget, skill level etc. there are plenty of quick cars running around that arent pulling some of the numbers mentioned in this thread. wether you go turbo or s/c youll have shit loads of fun...thats the aim here isnt it? get into it. cheers rick.

[11SLI]

just one thing that amuses me tho is everyones obsession with power levels.... not bagging anyone here as im in the build process now(r8 turbo build) its just the fun value,driveability etc will be different for everyone dependent on your budget, skill level etc. there are plenty of quick cars running around that arent pulling some of the numbers mentioned in this thread. wether you go turbo or s/c youll have shit loads of fun...thats the aim here isnt it? get into it. cheers rick.

Thats it mate a lot of people (import owners) that ive talked to etc even other LS1 owners think 340rwkw from a TT LS1 is VERY VERY LOW..
They dont understand the that the size of the turbos arent great, but until they sit in the ute and feel the massive amount of torque from such a low RPM right thru to redline it quickly shuts them up and leaves them dribbling for more..

[Uncle Tone]

Thats it mate a lot of people (import owners) that ive talked to etc even other LS1 owners think 340rwkw from a TT LS1 is VERY VERY LOW..
They dont understand the that the size of the turbos arent great, but until they sit in the ute and feel the massive amount of torque from such a low RPM right thru to redline it quickly shuts them up and leaves them dribbling for more..

I just want the car to feel quick. I want to be able to mash it in third at 80k's and light the tyres up.....no clutch kicking allowed!! :nono:

[Tre-Cool]

I just want the car to feel quick. I want to be able to mash it in third at 80k's and light the tyres up.....no clutch kicking allowed!! :nono:
quite the opposite to me tone. i want grip. no sudden-boost into wheelspin shenanigans for me.

[SSidewayz]

I just want the car to feel quick. I want to be able to mash it in third at 80k's and light the tyres up.....no clutch kicking allowed!! :nono:

Fun for a while Tone but will get tiring. If thats the case chuck on some cheapy tyres with either kit and it should be no worries.

[DesFlurane]

Having gone from a V8 to the Typhoon, lighting the tyres at 100kph is a very, very scary thing.
I have 320 at the wheels and to say it's a frightening ride is an understatement.
Presumably Tone you have driven a 300+ car already? If not chasing, 400 at the rears for a daily driver you're going to have to be very careful.
I personally wouldn't let my wife drive with the 320 tune in the car. I also have a 295 tune which doesn't come on so strong.
A question I have is how tunable for power delivery are these kits?

[GMHVNSS]

A question I have is how tunable for power delivery are these kits?

As tunable as the flex in your right ankle, at the end of the day it doesn't how much power a car has, it all comes down to self control and respect for what is under your right foot!

[wp01]

ok i just watched that youtube vid.. has that car basically got the 122 stage 2 walkinshaw kit of a lesser version?

No,that is the 'stage 1' low boost 112 package.

AL

[DesFlurane]

A question I have is how tunable for power delivery are these kits?

As tunable as the flex in your right ankle, at the end of the day it doesn't how much power a car has, it all comes down to self control and respect for what is under your right foot!

I don't see it like that at all!
Yes control with the right foot is the most important thing, but I have 2 tunes for my car, within 20kws of each other and one has a kick like a mule from down low and the other is much more progressive.
I drive the progressive one most of the time, the other one is too addictive; boost rush, lose traction, correct steering and hang on.

I guess like most people, my driving is not up to the power available.
There, I said it. Chasing power is not the be all and end, it has to be drivable. And you have to be able to handle it.
Case in point, my tuning shop had a flatbed arrive with a VZ PWR blower car. Owner showing off to mate in passenger seat, oops car spins, down bank, rips sump off on tree stump and who knows what else, all at 'low' speed.

[LSavvy]

I guess like most people, my driving is not up to the power available.
There, I said it. Chasing power is not the be all and end, it has to be drivable. And you have to be able to handle it.
Case in point, my tuning shop had a flatbed arrive with a VZ PWR blower car. Owner showing off to mate in passenger seat, oops car spins, down bank, rips sump off on tree stump and who knows what else, all at 'low' speed.


I agree, i think the problem these days are young guys (well some older ones too) not having respect/understanding of their cars, the big prangs these days are full of human carnage, compared to years ago when your fastest 4cyl wasn't quick in todays terms.

[wagnman]

Ummm......

Is it just me or is this thread getting a bit off UT's topic?

[DesFlurane]

Hi Tone,
Sorry for going off topic in your thread.
The point I was originaly trying to make was that, and my tuner who I talked too this am agrees, the turbo setup is more tunable to what you want, in the way of power delivery and level rather than the blower.
He installs way more Holden blowers than turbos.
The power delivery in a blower is what it is, all you can do is take timimg out and detune it, but the delivery is the same.
Turbos otoh can have their delivery characteristics tuned to what you want.
From a Ford owner, this time around, Go the turbo route, and put the difference to use with suspension and bigger brakes, you're going to need them, trust me:)
Good luck in whatever you choose

[Uncle Tone]

quite the opposite to me tone. i want grip. no sudden-boost into wheelspin shenanigans for me.

I think I have all the grip I need:D


Fun for a while Tone but will get tiring. If thats the case chuck on some cheapy tyres with either kit and it should be no worries.

What I meant by that was..... I want any kit I buy to make the car capable of spinning the tyres in 3rd just by flattening it......or near enough anyway :D


Having gone from a V8 to the Typhoon, lighting the tyres at 100kph is a very, very scary thing.
I have 320 at the wheels and to say it's a frightening ride is an understatement.
Presumably Tone you have driven a 300+ car already? If not chasing, 400 at the rears for a daily driver you're going to have to be very careful.

I'll be able to handle it. Don't forget traction control!!

[CarlFST60L]

Having gone from a V8 to the Typhoon, lighting the tyres at 100kph is a very, very scary thing.

If a 320kwrw typhoon can get roll on smoke at 100km/h, please, post a video, this i have to see :1peek:

Tone, you want 80km/h roll on burnouts?
Maybe Keen can comment having had ~350kwrw now ~400kwrw, what speeds and gears will it break into a smoke show from just roll on? Can you roll on second at 80 and smoke em, or does it churn the wheels and get going? Can you hold WOT at 100km/h and continue with crushing acceleration, or does it just turn into a scary bit of drifting and smoke?

[Redline]

If a 320kwrw typhoon can get roll on smoke at 100km/h, please, post a video, this i have to see :1peek:

I would have to agree....mine certainly doesnt and it makes 340rwkw (maybe the boost is spiking ;))

[Martin_D]

Plenty here talk of wheelspin deep into third gear with just a tune on an otherwise stock car just use the search button :lol:

My own TTVE would easily blister the tyres all through second, and get a bit skatey in third with Pirelli PZeros (295s) on board....change them over to Rosso Corsas and there was only ever cold tyre wheelspin in second. As soon as they were warm it was grip city :teach:

Which brings me to the stock HSV rubber selection on their 20s...its very bloody good, and very bloody grippy. I can tell you now that there is no way you are going to roll on the pedal in third gear and kick the tyres loose with sheer power and torque given the quality of the hoops in question and the power delivery of our kit :)

To spin the tyres hard you want the kind of system that delivers something like - idle....nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing....4000rpm EVERYTHING like a light switch, giving all its power and torque in a sharp rise over 500rpm or so. Its this kind of shock load that breaks the tyres grip and many ooohhh and aaahhh about. The only problem is that a combo that behaves like this is slow....everywhere....other than on the dyno :cool:

[Uncle Tone]

My own TTVE would easily blister the tyres all through second, and get a bit skatey in third with Pirelli PZeros (295s) on board....change them over to Rosso Corsas and there was only ever cold tyre wheelspin in second. As soon as they were warm it was grip city :teach:

Which brings me to the stock HSV rubber selection on their 20s...its very bloody good, and very bloody grippy. I can tell you now that there is no way you are going to roll on the pedal in third gear and kick the tyres loose with sheer power and torque given the quality of the hoops in question and the power delivery of our kit :)

Does your TTVE have the exact kit that you will be selling me?

(Exhaust and tune accepted of course :D)

(and oil cooler) :lol:


Tone, you want 80km/h roll on burnouts?
:lol:

Yeah right, me and burnouts go hand in hand, don't they! :lmao:

Nah mate. Just thought it would be nice if the car would be capable of a tiny bit of wheelspin up there....not a smokefest, but just a bit of a skit sideways, thats all.

As Tuna said, these things are very grippy. It would take a pretty large chunk of power to do that......which I was hoping to have :D

[F6Mauz]

Having gone from a V8 to the Typhoon, lighting the tyres at 100kph is a very, very scary thing.
I have 320 at the wheels and to say it's a frightening ride is an understatement.
Presumably Tone you have driven a 300+ car already? If not chasing, 400 at the rears for a daily driver you're going to have to be very careful.
I personally wouldn't let my wife drive with the 320 tune in the car. I also have a 295 tune which doesn't come on so strong.
A question I have is how tunable for power delivery are these kits?

How do you manage that? I find it impossible even with 370rwkw and Kuhmo tyres. You must have extremely bald and unsafe tyres at the back to do so.

[nqcv8]

Having gone from a V8 to the Typhoon, lighting the tyres at 100kph is a very, very scary thing.
I have 320 at the wheels and to say it's a frightening ride is an understatement.
Presumably Tone you have driven a 300+ car already? If not chasing, 400 at the rears for a daily driver you're going to have to be very careful.
I personally wouldn't let my wife drive with the 320 tune in the car. I also have a 295 tune which doesn't come on so strong.
A question I have is how tunable for power delivery are these kits?

Was it raining and you had bald tyres? :stick:

My car has alot more power than 320rwkw and it doesnt get uncontrollable wheels spin in 3rd gear... yes it will break traction but its certainly not frightening but to me thats just wasted forward momentum.

U.T to many variables to comparing what people claim about this topic, tyres, suspension and as tuna said power delivery.
People claim to get huge amounts of wheel spin with a mafless tune... I have never experienced it... not even with my Cammed monaro.

Cheers

Sean

[DesFlurane]

Try Dunlop SP9000.
Also I never said roll on.
Changing down a gear or 3!

[Justice R8]

Plenty here talk of wheelspin deep into third gear with just a tune on an otherwise stock car just use the search button :lol:

My own TTVE would easily blister the tyres all through second, and get a bit skatey in third with Pirelli PZeros (295s) on board....change them over to Rosso Corsas and there was only ever cold tyre wheelspin in second. As soon as they were warm it was grip city :teach:

Which brings me to the stock HSV rubber selection on their 20s...its very bloody good, and very bloody grippy. I can tell you now that there is no way you are going to roll on the pedal in third gear and kick the tyres loose with sheer power and torque given the quality of the hoops in question and the power delivery of our kit :)

To spin the tyres hard you want the kind of system that delivers something like - idle....nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing....4000rpm EVERYTHING like a light switch, giving all its power and torque in a sharp rise over 500rpm or so. Its this kind of shock load that breaks the tyres grip and many ooohhh and aaahhh about. The only problem is that a combo that behaves like this is slow....everywhere....other than on the dyno :cool:

This is one of the things I like most about the small kit on my GF's car. The power delivery is a whole lot sweeter than your old single kit. I never liked the single and thought the power deliver was nothing nothing then bang and all over where as the smaller twins make the delivery a whole lot more linear. I think the singles where a very average kit compared to your twins. I know you will never say it but the twins on the street are a shit load better than any single. As far as spinning wheels, my gf's wont spin the wheels on a roll on in third, it gripsand goes which is what i like about the power delivery. If you want it to spin through 1st,2nd. 3rd you can do i easily but why would you. Nothing scarier than spinning wheels at 140kmph. thats what I didnt like about my old vortec. A big single is ok if on a strong built bottom end as you use the engine to take you to the 3000-3500rpm than the turbo to kick in and make you top end like the vortec does. I have had quite a few combos and for a great allround daily driver the small single is sensational. Sam is trying to get me to upgrade to the newer turbos. he tells me I'll love it more, but for a great daily driver this is hard to beat.

Some of the things I liked was the speed of fitment to the VE 2 days drive in driveout (Sureflo did the exhaust straightaway whilst the towie waited thanks Greg) so lets say 3 days if the exhaust shop is busy. The is NO need to change the fuel pump or fit a fuel system, NO need to change heads. These are things that add quite a bit of time and money to the build that are not needed. It has ben proven time and time again that the fuel system on the VE will support 550rwhp using a gentt kit (actual testing not myths and magic guesses). The fuel pump will run out a little less with a belt system such as my Vortec than they will on the Gen tt as the belt system tends to draw more power from the engine to drive the blower than the engine did for the Gen tt.

Mods Please delete everything above this


This is one of the things I like most about the small kit on my GF's car. The power delivery is a whole lot sweeter than your old single kit. I never liked the single and thought the power delivery was nothing nothing then bang and all over, whereas the smaller twins make the delivery a whole lot more linear. I think the singles where a very average kit compared to your twins. I know you will never say it but the twins on the street are a shit load better than any single. As far as spinning wheels, my gf's wont spin the wheels on a roll on in third, it gripsand goes which is what i like about the power delivery. If you want it to spin through 1st,2nd. 3rd you can do i easily but why would you. Nothing scarier than spinning wheels at 140kmph. thats what I didnt like about my old vortec. A big single is ok if on a strong built bottom end as you use the engine to take you to the 3000-3500rpm than the turbo to kick in and make you top end like the vortec does. I have had quite a few combos and for a great allround daily driver the small gentt is sensational. Sam is trying to get me to upgrade to the newer turbos. he tells me I'll love it more, but for a great daily driver this is hard to beat.

Some of the things I liked was the speed of fitment to the VE 2 days drive in driveout (Sureflo did the exhaust straightaway whilst the towie waited thanks Greg) so lets say 3 days if the exhaust shop is busy. The is NO need to change the fuel pump or fit a fuel system, NO need to change heads. These are things that add quite a bit of time and money to the build that are not needed. It has ben proven time and time again that the fuel system on the VE will support 550rwhp using a gentt kit (actual testing not myths and magic guesses). The fuel pump will run out a little less with a belt system such as my Vortec than they will on the Gen tt as the belt system tends to draw more power from the engine to drive the blower than the engine did for the Gen tt.

[dsv8]

so basicly what your saying is.... all these ppl saying u need to upgrade your fuel system for your turbo kits / blah blah, u dont need to, and its 2g's ur wasting?

[Tre-Cool]

so basicly what your saying is.... all these ppl saying u need to upgrade your fuel system for your turbo kits / blah blah, u dont need to, and its 2g's ur wasting?
only on the VE. no way in hell with a vt-vy do it with a stock pump.

[Uncle Tone]

so basicly what your saying is.... all these ppl saying u need to upgrade your fuel system for your turbo kits / blah blah, u dont need to, and its 2g's ur wasting?

VE's must be better on the fuel side of things than previous models.

Tuna can confirm.

[OLS108]

Tone, are we any closer to choosing a kit ?

Dave

[Vulture]

What is Desflurane smoking...or perhaps inhaling some desflurane? :lol:

[Justice R8]

only on the VE. no way in hell with a vt-vy do it with a stock pump.

spot on tre cool.

[Delco]

See how good the stock VE pump is if the tank is lower than 1/2 , not even adaquate on a base vortech kit , especially when you throw some injectors in to gain a safety margin.

[wp01]

See how good the stock VE pump is if the tank is lower than 1/2 , not even adaquate on a base vortech kit , especially when you throw some injectors in to gain a safety margin.

Below 1/2 tank there is an issue with the transfer of fuel between both halves of the tank.

AL

[Uncle Tone]

Tone, are we any closer to choosing a kit ?

Dave

Yep..... :D


Below 1/2 tank there is an issue with the transfer of fuel between both halves of the tank.

AL

Well.....poopycakes.

Anything we can do about this?

[Delco]

Yep..... :D



Well.....poopycakes.

Anything we can do about this?

Yes keep it full , it is not just a issue with transfer but with keeping the swirlpot full , testing has shown that pressure drops off dramatically if the throttle is held for any length of time with the std setup as the swirlpot empties , maybe alright for one dyno pull but.

Fuel systems are the only way to ensure you dont have a lean out

[Uncle Tone]

Yes keep it full , it is not just a issue with transfer but with keeping the swirlpot full , testing has shown that pressure drops off dramatically if the throttle is held for any length of time with the std setup as the swirlpot empties , maybe alright for one dyno pull but.

Fuel systems are the only way to ensure you dont have a lean out

So its not the pump then. More of a badly designed swirlpot and tank issue?

Does anyone have any pics of inside?

[DesFlurane]

What is Desflurane smoking...or perhaps inhaling some desflurane? :lol:

Nice catch:)

[Idiocyxplained]

Yes keep it full , it is not just a issue with transfer but with keeping the swirlpot full , testing has shown that pressure drops off dramatically if the throttle is held for any length of time with the std setup as the swirlpot empties , maybe alright for one dyno pull but.

Fuel systems are the only way to ensure you dont have a lean out

So reallistically speaking here, you would need to upgrade the fuel system to have the peace of mind and safety margins with f/i on the ve.... So how does that appy to the guarantee offered on these kits if it leans out due to the stock system?? or is fuelling a choose it yourself option, we told you so when you keep it stock?

[TLX]

My GTS has rev limiter set at 6,200 and requires fuel system as it is running lean and for safety will put one in. Car is making 400rwk:)

[6LtrLimo]

It looks as though no one can agree on this one which concerns me a little when I am looking at one of these cars myself. From what I make of it, Walkinshaw says the saddle tank is a problem. Chippy says the pickup is a problem and Tuna says there is no problem. Looking at whats posted it seems to say that 380rwkw+ is ok if you dont hold it flat in fourth longer than 15 seconds (length of a dyno run)

[KeenGolfer]

So how does that appy to the guarantee offered on these kits if it leans out due to the stock system??

What guarantee? You think that if your engine goes boom after having any FI kit installed the shop will rebuild it for you for free?

[Martin_D]

Interesting questions posed here, with many potential answers. The only data we can reference though is that derived from our own testing when we were racing TTVE, and holding Wide Open Throttle into the 250km/h range in fourth and fifth gears - which is probably more than we could expect from the average spirited street driver :eek:

We have seen no massive transfer problems with the saddle arrangement, but having said that we didnt go looking in that department, starting out watching the fuel pressure and tracing any potential problem back through the fuel sytem starting at the rails and working backwards. What we can tell you is this -

Fuel rails - Nice design, massive volume, do the job of 400rwkw plus easily
Fuel lines - get the job done
Stock Pump - No great problem there - more on that later
Bucket - A potential weakness like all GM buckets

The good news from a road racing or drag racing viewpoint is that the thank design isnt as long and as flat as the VT - VZ tank which means its much, much harder for the fuel to stand up at the back of the tank and run away from the pickup. It certainly would be possible under extreme conditions, but its certainly something we never encountered during our testing...but I suppose it depends how you make the power....My advice is that when you are circuit or drag racing is to keep the tank over half full and keep the bucket submerged at all times..... :)

My suggestion here is that something like TLXs car with big blower, big cam etc etc to make 400rwkw or so would be losing something like 30 - 40kw through the belt system (remember this is just an example from what I have seen on Vortech cars over the years, no comment on whatever blower it is TLX runs just he is a good example being a 400rwkw supercharged VE), which means that to make 400rwkw it has to make much more power at the crank and use much more fuel due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger to get the job done. This is one reason a fuel system in the above application is a must, where for a stockish (350rwkw - 370rwkw) installation of a VE Gen-TT I will recommend that the standard fuel system is fine :teach:

There theres the legality and durability issues involved with fuel systems. If you want an ADR complied and insurable car its well best off to steer away from aftermarket fuel systems as a rule. There are few that are intelligently conceived in the first instance, and even less that will operate without compromise to the vehicles integrity, noise, odour, and safety :cool:

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

Interesting questions posed here, with many potential answers. The only data we can reference though is that derived from our own testing when we were racing TTVE, and holding Wide Open Throttle into the 250km/h range in fourth and fifth gears - which is probably more than we could expect from the average spirited street driver :eek:

We have seen no massive transfer problems with the saddle arrangement, but having said that we didnt go looking in that department, starting out watching the fuel pressure and tracing any potential problem back through the fuel sytem starting at the rails and working backwards. What we can tell you is this -

Fuel rails - Nice design, massive volume, do the job of 400rwkw plus easily
Fuel lines - get the job done
Stock Pump - No great problem there - more on that later
Bucket - A potential weakness like all GM buckets

The good news from a road racing or drag racing viewpoint is that the thank design isnt as long and as flat as the VT - VZ tank which means its much, much harder for the fuel to stand up at the back of the tank and run away from the pickup. It certainly would be possible under extreme conditions, but its certainly something we never encountered during our testing...but I suppose it depends how you make the power....My advice is that when you are circuit or drag racing is to keep the tank over half full and keep the bucket submerged at all times..... :)

My suggestion here is that something like TLXs car with big blower, big cam etc etc to make 400rwkw or so would be losing something like 30 - 40kw through the belt system (remember this is just an example from what I have seen on Vortech cars over the years, no comment on whatever blower it is TLX runs just he is a good example being a 400rwkw supercharged VE), which means that to make 400rwkw it has to make much more power at the crank and use much more fuel due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger to get the job done. This is one reason a fuel system in the above application is a must, where for a stockish (350rwkw - 370rwkw) installation of a VE Gen-TT I will recommend that the standard fuel system is fine :teach:

There theres the legality and durability issues involved with fuel systems. If you want an ADR complied and insurable car its well best off to steer away from aftermarket fuel systems as a rule. There are few that are intelligently conceived in the first instance, and even less that will operate without compromise to the vehicles integrity, noise, odour, and safety :cool:

VERY informative MARTIN thanks
do you think the standard VE fuel system would be adequate to handle a big stroker say 454/490 LSX N A ?

[TLX]

Interesting questions posed here, with many potential answers. The only data we can reference though is that derived from our own testing when we were racing TTVE, and holding Wide Open Throttle into the 250km/h range in fourth and fifth gears - which is probably more than we could expect from the average spirited street driver :eek:

We have seen no massive transfer problems with the saddle arrangement, but having said that we didnt go looking in that department, starting out watching the fuel pressure and tracing any potential problem back through the fuel sytem starting at the rails and working backwards. What we can tell you is this -

Fuel rails - Nice design, massive volume, do the job of 400rwkw plus easily
Fuel lines - get the job done
Stock Pump - No great problem there - more on that later
Bucket - A potential weakness like all GM buckets

The good news from a road racing or drag racing viewpoint is that the thank design isnt as long and as flat as the VT - VZ tank which means its much, much harder for the fuel to stand up at the back of the tank and run away from the pickup. It certainly would be possible under extreme conditions, but its certainly something we never encountered during our testing...but I suppose it depends how you make the power....My advice is that when you are circuit or drag racing is to keep the tank over half full and keep the bucket submerged at all times..... :)

My suggestion here is that something like TLXs car with big blower, big cam etc etc to make 400rwkw or so would be losing something like 30 - 40kw through the belt system (remember this is just an example from what I have seen on Vortech cars over the years, no comment on whatever blower it is TLX runs just he is a good example being a 400rwkw supercharged VE), which means that to make 400rwkw it has to make much more power at the crank and use much more fuel due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger to get the job done. This is one reason a fuel system in the above application is a must, where for a stockish (350rwkw - 370rwkw) installation of a VE Gen-TT I will recommend that the standard fuel system is fine :teach:

There theres the legality and durability issues involved with fuel systems. If you want an ADR complied and insurable car its well best off to steer away from aftermarket fuel systems as a rule. There are few that are intelligently conceived in the first instance, and even less that will operate without compromise to the vehicles integrity, noise, odour, and safety :cool:

Good post M,

mine will be the intelligently conceived unit:teach:

Keep everyone posted on results and progress with fuel set-up!

[Martin_D]

Good post M,
mine will be the intelligently conceived unit:teach:
Keep everyone posted on results and progress with fuel set-up!

Hey no doubt I hope you took my post the right way :)
Nice thing you have there :cool:
Just making a point so as not to underestimate the stock system thats all

[TLX]

Hey no doubt I hope you took my post the right way :)
Nice thing you have there :cool:
Just making a point so as not to underestimate the stock system thats all

All good M,

Be a good contest around Winton between the two products:)

[Uncle Tone]

Interesting questions posed here, with many potential answers. The only data we can reference though is that derived from our own testing when we were racing TTVE, and holding Wide Open Throttle into the 250km/h range in fourth and fifth gears - which is probably more than we could expect from the average spirited street driver :eek:

We have seen no massive transfer problems with the saddle arrangement, but having said that we didnt go looking in that department, starting out watching the fuel pressure and tracing any potential problem back through the fuel sytem starting at the rails and working backwards. What we can tell you is this -

Fuel rails - Nice design, massive volume, do the job of 400rwkw plus easily
Fuel lines - get the job done
Stock Pump - No great problem there - more on that later
Bucket - A potential weakness like all GM buckets

The good news from a road racing or drag racing viewpoint is that the thank design isnt as long and as flat as the VT - VZ tank which means its much, much harder for the fuel to stand up at the back of the tank and run away from the pickup. It certainly would be possible under extreme conditions, but its certainly something we never encountered during our testing...but I suppose it depends how you make the power....My advice is that when you are circuit or drag racing is to keep the tank over half full and keep the bucket submerged at all times..... :)

My suggestion here is that something like TLXs car with big blower, big cam etc etc to make 400rwkw or so would be losing something like 30 - 40kw through the belt system (remember this is just an example from what I have seen on Vortech cars over the years, no comment on whatever blower it is TLX runs just he is a good example being a 400rwkw supercharged VE), which means that to make 400rwkw it has to make much more power at the crank and use much more fuel due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger to get the job done. This is one reason a fuel system in the above application is a must, where for a stockish (350rwkw - 370rwkw) installation of a VE Gen-TT I will recommend that the standard fuel system is fine :teach:

There theres the legality and durability issues involved with fuel systems. If you want an ADR complied and insurable car its well best off to steer away from aftermarket fuel systems as a rule. There are few that are intelligently conceived in the first instance, and even less that will operate without compromise to the vehicles integrity, noise, odour, and safety :cool:

Awesome info there Tuna, thanks :D

[Justice R8]

Interesting questions posed here, with many potential answers. The only data we can reference though is that derived from our own testing when we were racing TTVE, and holding Wide Open Throttle into the 250km/h range in fourth and fifth gears - which is probably more than we could expect from the average spirited street driver :eek:

We have seen no massive transfer problems with the saddle arrangement, but having said that we didnt go looking in that department, starting out watching the fuel pressure and tracing any potential problem back through the fuel sytem starting at the rails and working backwards. What we can tell you is this -

Fuel rails - Nice design, massive volume, do the job of 400rwkw plus easily
Fuel lines - get the job done
Stock Pump - No great problem there - more on that later
Bucket - A potential weakness like all GM buckets

The good news from a road racing or drag racing viewpoint is that the thank design isnt as long and as flat as the VT - VZ tank which means its much, much harder for the fuel to stand up at the back of the tank and run away from the pickup. It certainly would be possible under extreme conditions, but its certainly something we never encountered during our testing...but I suppose it depends how you make the power....My advice is that when you are circuit or drag racing is to keep the tank over half full and keep the bucket submerged at all times..... :)

My suggestion here is that something like TLXs car with big blower, big cam etc etc to make 400rwkw or so would be losing something like 30 - 40kw through the belt system (remember this is just an example from what I have seen on Vortech cars over the years, no comment on whatever blower it is TLX runs just he is a good example being a 400rwkw supercharged VE), which means that to make 400rwkw it has to make much more power at the crank and use much more fuel due to the parasitic drag of the supercharger to get the job done. This is one reason a fuel system in the above application is a must, where for a stockish (350rwkw - 370rwkw) installation of a VE Gen-TT I will recommend that the standard fuel system is fine :teach:

There theres the legality and durability issues involved with fuel systems. If you want an ADR complied and insurable car its well best off to steer away from aftermarket fuel systems as a rule. There are few that are intelligently conceived in the first instance, and even less that will operate without compromise to the vehicles integrity, noise, odour, and safety :cool:

As I have previously stated the parasitic loss on the belt drive is more than a turbo system. My vortec maxed a set of injectors out at one level, same injectors with a turbo maxed out about 40rwhp higher.

As far as running the swirl pot out of fuel it will be a brave person that is holding even the smallest FI car flat out for 15 secs.

As far as swapping fuel over the hump I havent had a problem, even running as low as 20ks till empty. I was water sking and couldnt get 98 and did the old Ill make it back to a servo with 98. Didnt have a problem. I have been thrashing my girlfriends car around over christmas and have seen any fuel issues with it yet. If the pump wasnt going to handle it, it wouldnt have made it this far. Real world running is showing me there is a whole lot of speculation with a few facts thrown in. Anyone with a VE that wants a test drive just pm me and you will see exactly what you get for your money. Value for money/ bang for buck the Gen TT is a pretty good bit of gear.


TLX
If I was making 400rwkw I would look at a fuel system like you are.

[Uncle Tone]

As I have previously stated the parasitic loss on the belt drive is more than a turbo system. My vortec maxed a set of injectors out at one level, same injectors with a turbo maxed out about 40rwhp higher.

As far as running the swirl pot out of fuel it will be a brave person that is holding even the smallest FI car flat out for 15 secs.

As far as swapping fuel over the hump I havent had a problem, even running as low as 20ks till empty. I was water sking and couldnt get 98 and did the old Ill make it back to a servo with 98. Didnt have a problem. I have been thrashing my girlfriends car around over christmas and have seen any fuel issues with it yet. If the pump wasnt going to handle it, it wouldnt have made it this far. Real world running is showing me there is a whole lot of speculation with a few facts thrown in. Anyone with a VE that wants a test drive just pm me and you will see exactly what you get for your money. Value for money/ bang for buck the Gen TT is a pretty good bit of gear.


TLX
If I was making 400rwkw I would look at a fuel system like you are.

So as Tuna said, the stock fuel system is fine for the ADR complied tune, but if the Gen TT is tuned for 400rwkw, it needs a fuel system? :(

Maybe the swirl pot can be modded to hold more fuel if the pump is OK?

Anyway, I'm meeting up with Skipper from Walkinshaw Performance tomorrow!! :yahoo:

Gonna take some blown cars for a blat!! :driving: I can't wait!! :D

[Martin_D]

So as Tuna said, the stock fuel system is fine for the ADR complied tune, but if the Gen TT is tuned for 400rwkw, it needs a fuel system? :(

Fuel requirement is not so much a power level consideration rather than an environmental one. Figure on how long you will be able to hold full throttle in fourth and fifth gears. Factor in that to POSSIBLY drain the bucket of fuel and cause a lean out at 400rwkw you will more than likely require 15 - 20 seconds of full noise in a tall gear, at which time you should be in excess of 260km/h. If this is your environment then a fuel system is highly recommended :teach:

Our environment in Classic Adelaide with 400rwkw and some straight sections that could allow WOT 4th/ 5th were never longer than 800m or so to keep outright speeds down, so a lot of time was spent accelerating in the 'meat' of the torque between 100km/h and 200km/h rather than holding the engine WOT constantly - hence we had no issue with fuel supply using a totally stock fuel pump/bucket assembly. Remember as soon as you lift the throttle the fuel system recovers quickly :)

The reality is that for extreme conditions a - properly engineered - fuel system is a good option for any other stock fuel system vehicle regardless make or model. Understand though that you will be decreasing the safety and durability of the vehicle by doing so....how much depends on your fuel system choices. Personally I will be leaving the fuel delivery system in my daily driven ute 100% stock and using a big fuel system next time I build a pure competition car :cool:

[Uncle Tone]

More good info there, thanks Tuna!! :bravo:

Anyway, I spent a couple of hours down at Walkinshaw Performance today!! :yahoo:


Check this beast out!! :love:




http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_1.jpg


This is under the bonnet. An absolutely beautiful installation compared to the turbo kits.....I'm sure even Tuna will agree with me there.

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_4.jpg

How did it drive? Awesome! :D

Power everywhere, no waiting. The Maloo is an auto, so its a bit hard to compare it to what I'll be getting, but there was quite a bit of useful power!! All the way to redline it was just there. So tractable! I can't remember what Skipper said it had at the hubs but it felt like it had heaps, thats for sure!!

On the subject of blower whine, it was very noticable. Hovever if I drove it like I would drive normally it was just about imperceptible. But floor it, and this thing screams like a banshee!! It was rather addictive, actually. And lets face it....if you were to tramp it you wouldn't be worried about noise so much anyway. I don't mind the blower whine.

All in all, I came away rather impressed. I had a good rummage around in the kit boxes, and it all seems to be high quality. The blower itself is an absolute work of art. From intercooler to blower backplate, its all top stuff. You get a very, very nice bit of kit when you buy one of these.

Some more pics of the Maloo.....this thing looked a million bucks!! Check out the wheels!! Who said 22's were too big? :stick:

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_3.jpg

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_2.jpg



I also took the black R8 for a drive. This has the smaller 112 kit:

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_5.jpg

This didn't have the power of the Maloo by a long shot. But being a manual what it did allow me to do was sample some 1000rpm and upwards power. There was a very noticable difference in the power even at these rpm. Since I do drive my car around at very low RPM levels day to day, this is a definite plus!! This impressed me greatly.

Got to look at the dyno room, as well as some Elfins. I tell you what if you parked two of them side by side you could mistake them for roller skates!! :lmao:

Thanks to the Skipper for allowing me to annoy him today......I appreciate it mate :D


Now to round up a Gen TT to drive...... :evil:

[vuss383]

Well done Tone , good to see you out & about doing the research ! That ride does look awsome ! Try to get us some power figures on the 2 kits if possible , will allow us to see what makes Tone a happy camper .

[vxleather]

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_4.jpg






Thats is a very very nice looking engine bay...and good to hear tone it could back up it's looks with a nice drive as well....

[OUTAtheBloo]

No video of a giggling Tony ??

:(

Dan

(ps your a mongrel)

[Alex(AUS)]

I vote charger!!! That Maloo looks the goods!!!

Alex

[markhit]

The kit on the Maloo is a Harrop kit re-badged Walkinshaw. Part of their (Harrop/Walkinshaw) "parnership" and "technology agreement", I suppose.

It's an excellent kit. As I've said before, true plug and play.

[Martin_D]

Good to see you are out doing some driving Tone :)
Time to get onto GM Motorsport next week and organise a steer in that direction :cool:


This is under the bonnet. An absolutely beautiful installation compared to the turbo kits.....I'm sure even Tuna will agree with me there.

I suppose that truly is a subjective thing. With a near stock look under the bonnet the Gen-TT VE will not win any car shows or beauty pageants, nor does it have much bling factor, retaining the factory covers etc. This actually fitted in quite well with the car we modelled a lot of the respone off - a Porsche 996TT (we had one as a development car at the time of the VE project kick off) - which itself is not much of an under-bonnet show pony, more of an industrious and tireless worker with near silent thrust :)
http://doughy.theddrzone.com/vettenginebay.jpg
From a customer feedback viewpoint its seems around a 50/50 split. Some crave for the noise and in your face looks and love their FI up high. Others prefer a more understated and subtle approach and love the stealth look of the TT. We know this, we supply both show and stealth options and get plenty of comments both ways :)

Which is why the statement earlier about both products not being directly comparable, both come from extremely different philosophical approaches and are targeted at different core groups. One look at the underbonnet - and even the reactions in this thread - tells most of the story. Some prefer a fussy and colorful approach, some prefer a simpler layout....its all good :cool:

[Vulture]

Not sure if I like the red/black blower look. I prefer the plain Harrop unpainted blower look.

[bsbozzy]

I did read from a post by Ken (Harrop) that they can engineer the blower to be quiet or loud, something you need to ask Harrop.

I agree, cant stand the look of the reb/black blower, would much prefer a polished one :D

[Justice R8]

More good info there, thanks Tuna!! :bravo:

Anyway, I spent a couple of hours down at Walkinshaw Performance today!! :yahoo:


Check this beast out!! :love:




http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_1.jpg


This is under the bonnet. An absolutely beautiful installation compared to the turbo kits.....I'm sure even Tuna will agree with me there.

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_4.jpg

How did it drive? Awesome! :D

Power everywhere, no waiting. The Maloo is an auto, so its a bit hard to compare it to what I'll be getting, but there was quite a bit of useful power!! All the way to redline it was just there. So tractable! I can't remember what Skipper said it had at the hubs but it felt like it had heaps, thats for sure!!

On the subject of blower whine, it was very noticable. Hovever if I drove it like I would drive normally it was just about imperceptible. But floor it, and this thing screams like a banshee!! It was rather addictive, actually. And lets face it....if you were to tramp it you wouldn't be worried about noise so much anyway. I don't mind the blower whine.

All in all, I came away rather impressed. I had a good rummage around in the kit boxes, and it all seems to be high quality. The blower itself is an absolute work of art. From intercooler to blower backplate, its all top stuff. You get a very, very nice bit of kit when you buy one of these.

Some more pics of the Maloo.....this thing looked a million bucks!! Check out the wheels!! Who said 22's were too big? :stick:

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_3.jpg

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_2.jpg



I also took the black R8 for a drive. This has the smaller 112 kit:

http://www.tcphotos.com/getuserimage.asp?t=n&id=img14438_07012008123551_5.jpg

This didn't have the power of the Maloo by a long shot. But being a manual what it did allow me to do was sample some 1000rpm and upwards power. There was a very noticable difference in the power even at these rpm. Since I do drive my car around at very low RPM levels day to day, this is a definite plus!! This impressed me greatly.

Got to look at the dyno room, as well as some Elfins. I tell you what if you parked two of them side by side you could mistake them for roller skates!! :lmao:

Thanks to the Skipper for allowing me to annoy him today......I appreciate it mate :D


Now to round up a Gen TT to drive...... :evil:

Tone

the second car, the 112 was a PWR blower isnt it? (which is the same as the harrop only the drive on the outside of the blower?)

What was the price drive in drive out of the orange blower on the maloo, the 122? Look good colour coded to the car, and some great power. Iwould have thought the 122 would have impressed you a lotmore than the 112

[Uncle Tone]

The kit on the Maloo is a Harrop kit re-badged Walkinshaw. Part of their (Harrop/Walkinshaw) "parnership" and "technology agreement", I suppose.

It's an excellent kit. As I've said before, true plug and play.

Hows yours going? Care to share power figures with us? :D


Tone

the second car, the 112 was a PWR blower isnt it? (which is the same as the harrop only the drive on the outside of the blower?)

What was the price drive in drive out of the orange blower on the maloo, the 122? Look good colour coded to the car, and some great power. Iwould have thought the 122 would have impressed you a lot more than the 112

Indeed Justice, the second is the PWR kit.

I didn't talk price yet. No point talking until I've made up my mind. I don't want a drive in drive out on the kits anyway. I want to install them myself. The Harrop kit would be so easy to install its not funny :cool:

Outright power the 122 kit was much better than the 112. Being an auto it was impossible to test the low end power of the 122. This is where the 112 impressed......but only because it was a manual and I was able to press the throttle at 1000rpm without it kicking down.



Time to get onto GM Motorsport next week and organise a steer in that direction :cool:

Damn....do I have to wait that long??? :banghead:

Talk about keeping me in suspense....:lol:

[korrupt]

That WP Maloo is in this month's Motor magazine compared with a Herrod XR8 ute. Looks mighty impressive.

[Freebaggin]

What brand and type are those 22s on the Maloo?

[holden6.0]

hi guys i read somewhere (tryin to find it again ) dat turbos last/need replacing/or servicing around every 20,000kms is this correct? would this also be the case for superchargers? can any guru's plz clarify

[Uncle Tone]

hi guys i read somewhere (tryin to find it again ) dat turbos last/need replacing/or servicing around every 20,000kms is this correct? would this also the case for superchargers?


I bloody hope not!! :vpo:

[holden6.0]

lol tone actually i think it was for a more highly modified car(the more mods u do shortens the life of them) but not sure. but if sumone could shed sum light on the maintenance of these systems how long they should last etc etc would be good and if the same applys to superchargers

[Tre-Cool]

i think it would be more to do with the pressures you make them create.

i.e back pressure on the turbo.

[wp01]

What brand and type are those 22s on the Maloo?

MHT 'Vendetta' forged..

AL

[Freebaggin]

MHT 'Vendetta' forged..

AL

Cheers AL for that

[Ken]

.... last/need replacing/or servicing around every 20,000kms is this correct? would this also be the case for superchargers? can any guru's plz clarify

I strongly doubt that is true for turbos, and I can say with absolute certainty that the Harrop superchargers do not need servicing ... hardly ever.
The most that is done is a quick check of belt tensions (adjust if necessary - perhaps every 20-40000kms) and replace the rear tyres regularly. Many of our early LS112 kits have now done in excess of 100,000kms with nothing more than the transfer belt replaced "just in case" (under $50).

Likewise, I know of a couple of turbo kits that have also done many 10,000kms without any attention.

[Sonnymad]

I strongly doubt that is true for turbos, and I can say with absolute certainty that the Harrop superchargers do not need servicing ... hardly ever.
The most that is done is a quick check of belt tensions (adjust if necessary - perhaps every 20-40000kms) and replace the rear tyres regularly. Many of our early LS112 kits have now done in excess of 100,000kms with nothing more than the transfer belt replaced "just in case" (under $50).

Likewise, I know of a couple of turbo kits that have also done many 10,000kms without any attention.

Ken,

I have noticed that mercedes are using the eaton super chargers in alot of their cars,are these supplied by harrop ?

regards sonny

[Ken]

Ken,
I have noticed that mercedes are using the eaton super chargers in alot of their cars,are these supplied by harrop ?
regards sonny

I wish !!
We do a lot of OE product, but any application that uses 10,000+ units per year is currently done by Eaton in their (very impressive) Georgia facility.
The last time I visited the Georgia factory, Eaton were making 800 superchargers per day for Mercedes! It was almost scary ... nearly totally automated.
Eaton have now set up a new (duplicate) facility in Poland to make OE superchargers for the European vehicle builders ... capable of 1000+ per day.
:1peek:

[Sonnymad]

I wish !!
We do a lot of OE product, but any application that uses 10,000+ units per year is currently done by Eaton in their (very impressive) Georgia facility.
The last time I visited the Georgia factory, Eaton were making 800 superchargers per day for Mercedes! It was almost scary ... nearly totally automated.
Eaton have now set up a new (duplicate) facility in Poland to make OE superchargers for the European vehicle builders ... capable of 1000+ per day.
:1peek:

Ken,

Those super chargers are impressive as when i drive mine i cant even hear the supercharger,just feel the zoom:),though i drove a freinds late model e55,it had a brabus update pakage on it,boy are those things impressive peice of engineering and legal to ! i just want one !

regards sonny

[markhit]

Hows yours going? Care to share power figures with us? :D





Sorry for not replying earlier, just finished a hard day.

I would love to post the dyno sheet, but don't know how and too old to learn. But it was dynoed/tuned by Chiptorque. Proper settings, proper AT/IT etc and showed 376rwkw. This has been posted elsewhere on this site. The power delivery is awesome (and I've has big stockers in the past with a big cam, twin throttle bodies etc) but this is something else.

Particularly impressive is the torque, which is what it's all about really. Flat as at 810Nm.

BTW The car is an E Series GTS, bog standard (including exhaust).

The only problem I've had so far is getting the power to the ground. Even just accelerating in 1st induces wild axle tramp, and I don't mean dropping the clutch or anything, just accelerating after a rolling start.

Ken, please come up with a kit to solve that condition, you'll sell a million.

BTW my car is all nice and legal with a modification plate for the supercharger etc.

[Martin_D]

i think it would be more to do with the pressures you make them create.


Tre-Cool has it in one :)
The harder you drive any system the less durability you will have on the parts making the boost. Thats the simple law of give and take :teach:

Confusing this issue somewhat is Tones requirement for ADR legality, for which we keep boost pressure around the 8psi mark, which in turn keeps turbo shaft speed down and durability up. We would expect 100,000km + to be covered in this trim at 350rwkw+ :)

Now up the ante somewhat, fit our high boost actuators, a low restriction exhaust system, and turn that 8psi into a constant 12 - 15psi chasing 420rwkw+. Rotational shaft speed of the turbochargers will increase 20,000 - 30,000rpm and their service life will be reduced to what we would reckon would be 60%....but not reduced as much as I suspect the service life of your stock engine will be :teach:

The same holds true no matter which way you go. Its physics :cool:

[Uncle Tone]

Tre-Cool has it in one :)
The harder you drive any system the less durability you will have on the parts making the boost. Thats the simple law of give and take :teach:

Confusing this issue somewhat is Tones requirement for ADR legality, for which we keep boost pressure around the 8psi mark, which in turn keeps turbo shaft speed down and durability up. We would expect 100,000km + to be covered in this trim at 350rwkw+ :)

Now up the ante somewhat, fit our high boost actuators, a low restriction exhaust system, and turn that 8psi into a constant 12 - 15psi chasing 420rwkw+. Rotational shaft speed of the turbochargers will increase 20,000 - 30,000rpm and their service life will be reduced to what we would reckon would be 60%....but not reduced as much as I suspect the service life of your stock engine will be :teach:

The same holds true no matter which way you go. Its physics :cool:

All those pwer figures sound great Tuna. Can't wait to drive Phonsys car next week (if he lets me :lol:).

I'm concerned with my car only doing 100,000km before the motor needs rebuilding though.....that is way too low. I think you might mean in the hands of an owner with a foot so heavy that he can't lift it......at least I hope you do!! :errr:


Sorry for not replying earlier, just finished a hard day.

I would love to post the dyno sheet, but don't know how and too old to learn. But it was dynoed/tuned by Chiptorque. Proper settings, proper AT/IT etc and showed 376rwkw. This has been posted elsewhere on this site. The power delivery is awesome (and I've has big stockers in the past with a big cam, twin throttle bodies etc) but this is something else.

Particularly impressive is the torque, which is what it's all about really. Flat as at 810Nm.

BTW The car is an E Series GTS, bog standard (including exhaust).

The only problem I've had so far is getting the power to the ground. Even just accelerating in 1st induces wild axle tramp, and I don't mean dropping the clutch or anything, just accelerating after a rolling start.

Ken, please come up with a kit to solve that condition, you'll sell a million.

BTW my car is all nice and legal with a modification plate for the supercharger etc.

Yeah, mine tramps too. :(

Its good to hear feedback from owners themselves, so cheers for that. Sounds like you are very happy!! :D

I've sent some PM's out to some Gen TT owners (the installs that Sonny did) so hopefully they will reply soon.

[KPWISHN]

I'm concerned with my car only doing 100,000km before the motor needs rebuilding though.....that is way too low.

You are one hard man to please. I think your living in fairy land though. You are going to be forcing air into an engine that was not designed for it. How quickly will you cover 100,000km and do you really think you will still own the vehicle after that long?

A little off topic, but I heard (unsubstantiated though) that the new Skyline GTR will require a rebuild periodically (100,000km) as per the service manual.

[nqcv8]

All those pwer figures sound great Tuna. Can't wait to drive Phonsys car next week (if he lets me :lol:).

I'm concerned with my car only doing 100,000km before the motor needs rebuilding though.....that is way too low. I think you might mean in the hands of an owner with a foot so heavy that he can't lift it......at least I hope you do!! :errr:



I read that as Turbo life not Engine Life U.T

Cheers

[Martin_D]

I'm concerned with my car only doing 100,000km before the motor needs rebuilding though.....that is way too low. I think you might mean in the hands of an owner with a foot so heavy that he can't lift it......at least I hope you do!! :errr:

I dont think you are being realistic here. Pushing over 12psi of boost and aiming for over 400rwkw with a stock GM engine designed to deliver 230rwkw is going to be extending the edge of the envelope at any given time. Thats the nature of the beast known as modification :teach:

Speak to many here that are making 370rwkw + regardless of whether its FI, Stroker, whatever, and most if not all of them would give part of their anatomy for 100,000km between engine freshen-ups. There is only one way to have stock durability, and thats to leave the engine stock...it is the ONLY way :)

Having said that I think a nice 340rwkw - 350rwkw with conservative tuning is the way to go, giving good reliability and not trying to go beyond the limits of the stock metallurgy. You are a perfect case in point here Tone, as the pain of a rebuild would be more than the e-damage or forum ego loss that being down 30rwkw could give you. So go for the conservative approach :cool:

Regardless of type, engine modification is like anything else you cant have your cake AND eat it. Its better to be a little conservative and have a good strong daily driver, than get that 400rwkw Black Forest cake and end up with chocolate smeared around your lips and a crook feeling in your guts. Just my take on it :)

[RED R8]

Nice cake description ST haha...

As far as I was aware even a cam will shorten the life of a motor top end cops more of a hammering.

Build it tone if you still have it it 100,000ks you will be ready for more power anyway so a decent build (stroker) should suffice.

[Redline]

As far as I was aware even a cam will shorten the life of a motor top end cops more of a hammering.

Even a tune will to a lesser degree.

[Uncle Tone]

Speak to many here that are making 370rwkw + regardless of whether its FI, Stroker, whatever, and most if not all of them would give part of their anatomy for 100,000km between engine freshen-ups. There is only one way to have stock durability, and thats to leave the engine stock...it is the ONLY way :)



That may be for FI Tuna, but in my experience not for strokers :)

My 383 Chev that I built back in 1995 with a pretty lumpy cam did 140,000 km in my hands before I sold the car is 2002.....last time I saw the car was a month ago.....motor still hasn't been opened :cool:

[KPWISHN]

Well that's just reckless.

[Uncle Tone]

Nice cake description ST haha...

As far as I was aware even a cam will shorten the life of a motor top end cops more of a hammering.

Build it tone if you still have it it 100,000ks you will be ready for more power anyway so a decent build (stroker) should suffice.

I am absolutely sure that it has more to do with the way its driven. In my experience anyway.

Case in point: If you have a turbo kit, and you hardly ever rev it above 2500rpm or use more than a quarter throttle, will the turbo installation wear out the motor at an accelerated rate or not? :idea:

[Redline]

I am absolutely sure that it has more to do with the way its driven. In my experience anyway.

Case in point: If you have a turbo kit, and you hardly ever rev it above 2500rpm or use more than a quarter throttle, will the turbo installation wear out the motor at an accelerated rate or not? :idea:

Is there any point in modifying it at all then?
Do you think you will honestly be able to keep yourself from flogging it more than 20% of the time you drive it?

[Martin_D]

I am absolutely sure that it has more to do with the way its driven. In my experience anyway.

That has an awful LOT to do with it....probably more than anything else :teach:


Case in point: If you have a turbo kit, and you hardly ever rev it above 2500rpm or use more than a quarter throttle, will the turbo installation wear out the motor at an accelerated rate or not? :idea:

I think you miss the point a little here Tone, so let me give you my slant on it. Anywhere, at any point in the rev range where you are producing more power or torque than stock - regardless of how you are doing it - you will be placing greater load on the engine internals. How that then transfers to wear is one for the metallurgists...you would think that at that rev loading the wear would be minimal :teach:

[Uncle Tone]

Is there any point in modifying it at all then?
Do you think you will honestly be able to keep yourself from flogging it more than 20% of the time you drive it?

Course theres a point!! :nutkick:

You're talking to a bloke that has over 30 RC cars and drives 1 of them, remember? :lol:

I want the power because I like to know its there just in case one day I want to use it. Not because I plan to use it all the time!! If you gave it to your car 20% of the time you were on the road you would not have a licence for long, thats for sure! :D

[Redline]

Course theres a point!! :nutkick:

You're talking to a bloke that has over 30 RC cars and drives 1 of them, remember? :lol:

I want the power because I like to know its there just in case one day I want to use it. Not because I plan to use it all the time!! If you gave it to your car 20% of the time you were on the road you would not have a licence for long, thats for sure! :D

True... :lmao: and I know what you mean.

The Point i am trying to make is you have a lot of requirements and not all can be realistically met with any package you choose.

eg. Buying any Kit and driving it "within your limits" and at low boost, etc will keep the engine in reasonably good nick (but as stated will be under more stress than stock)....but then you want to turn up the wick and have 400rwkw eventually but you still want the lifespan of the engine to remain the same.

:eek:

[Uncle Tone]

That has an awful LOT to do with it....probably more than anything else :teach:



I think you miss the point a little here Tone, so let me give you my slant on it. Anywhere, at any point in the rev range where you are producing more power or torque than stock - regardless of how you are doing it - you will be placing greater load on the engine internals. How that then transfers to wear is one for the metallurgists...you would think that at that rev loading the wear would be minimal :teach:

Definitely.

We could discuss this for days and quote percentages and stats and metallurgists reports etc etc.......suffice it to say that I'm sure I will not see any detrimental effect to engine wear from any stroker or FI package......the way I drive. It will never happen.

To quote Corky Bell from memory: "If you were to drive normally, with some respect for the equipment, expect about 90% of engine life." In my experience thats just about right. :cool:

[STATIE]

Tony,

I'm going right off track here and maybe hurt Tuna & Walkinshaw's feelings - but are you sure FI is for you?

With a decent set of pipes OTR and a good tune a manual LS2 will pull close to 280-300RWKW nowadays - that is a LOT of power!!! & it will drive like stock cos it is stock.

Sure you wont be able to have the dick pull of saying you have a blower or turbo's but with your shall we say "high expectations" you will find it hard for anything to meet all your criteria.

What have you got to lose - $2-3K maybe & you may find you like it - or spend $10-15K and maybe you won't with FI.

I don't care what anyone says - a genuine 300RWKW daily driver is fast - my missuses in an auto only has 260 ish and would not be put to shame by many cars she is likely to meet around here.

This is not to say FI is not a good thing - but there are always compromises with anything - and if you aren't willing to make those compromises - well what can I say?

[Uncle Tone]

True... :lmao: and I know what you mean.

The Point i am trying to make is you have a lot of requirements and not all can be realistically met with any package you choose.

eg. Buying any Kit and driving it "within your limits" and at low boost, etc will keep the engine in reasonably good nick (but as stated will be under more stress than stock)....but then you want to turn up the wick and have 400rwkw eventually but you still want the lifespan of the engine to remain the same.

:eek:

I don't expect the engine to last the same amount of time as stock. Its very silly to expect that after installing any sort of FI!! :nono: :slap:

But I do expect the engine to last well over 100,000 km. :D

[Redline]

I don't expect the engine to last the same amount of time as stock. Its very silly to expect that after installing any sort of FI!! :nono: :slap:

But I do expect the engine to last well over 100,000 km. :D

I never said you wanted it to last as long as stock......nevermind :confused:

[mmciau]

Even a tune will to a lesser degree.

Surely not!

A properly configured (and focussed) tune would surely enhance/optimise all the available parameters that the tune would cover. In doing so, the better an engine is tuned, the better the engine will perform and therefore less stress on the engine because it will respond in a more satisfactory manner.

For example, if the correct air/fuel ratio is determined, it could substantially reduce the "ring wash" an engine can experience if the engine was running "rich" before tune.

Mike

[Redline]

Surely not!

A properly configured (and focussed) tune would surely enhance/optimise all the available parameters that the tune would cover. In doing so, the better an engine is tuned, the better the engine will perform and therefore less stress on the engine because it will respond in a more satisfactory manner.

For example, if the correct air/fuel ratio is determined, it could substantially reduce the "ring wash" an engine can experience if the engine was running "rich" before tune.

Mike

Correct.....but it depends on the tune...and the driver :)

[RED R8]

Tony,

I'm going right off track here and maybe hurt Tuna & Walkinshaw's feelings - but are you sure FI is for you?

With a decent set of pipes OTR and a good tune a manual LS2 will pull close to 280-300RWKW nowadays - that is a LOT of power!!! & it will drive like stock cos it is stock.

Sure you wont be able to have the dick pull of saying you have a blower or turbo's but with your shall we say "high expectations" you will find it hard for anything to meet all your criteria.

What have you got to lose - $2-3K maybe & you may find you like it - or spend $10-15K and maybe you won't with FI.


I don't care what anyone says - a genuine 300RWKW daily driver is fast - my missuses in an auto only has 260 ish and would not be put to shame by many cars she is likely to meet around here.

This is not to say FI is not a good thing - but there are always compromises with anything - and if you aren't willing to make those compromises - well what can I say?

Very valid point....I mean Mick VE is running 12.0 "bolt ons" in a well sorted car...
Most have said the FI wont fry the tyres in third like you wanted,the FI will reduce engine life and will cost you 10+ grand.If you want something that is just there when you may need it install a well set up 150hp Nos kit..:)

[Uncle Tone]

Tony,

I'm going right off track here and maybe hurt Tuna & Walkinshaw's feelings - but are you sure FI is for you?

With a decent set of pipes OTR and a good tune a manual LS2 will pull close to 280-300RWKW nowadays - that is a LOT of power!!! & it will drive like stock cos it is stock.

Sure you wont be able to have the dick pull of saying you have a blower or turbo's but with your shall we say "high expectations" you will find it hard for anything to meet all your criteria.

What have you got to lose - $2-3K maybe & you may find you like it - or spend $10-15K and maybe you won't with FI.

I don't care what anyone says - a genuine 300RWKW daily driver is fast - my missuses in an auto only has 260 ish and would not be put to shame by many cars she is likely to meet around here.

This is not to say FI is not a good thing - but there are always compromises with anything - and if you aren't willing to make those compromises - well what can I say?

I have that now mate.....or near enough to it anyway. I was thinking of FI because when you potter around (like I do for 99.99999% of the time) it would still feel stock. I certainly found that after driving the Walkinshaw cars.....they have perfect road manners! Thats what I like about FI. Its in the background until you call upon it. :D Unlike cams, which make themselves known from idle.

My car probably won't sound as intimidating or tough as some, but it will suit my needs and wants perfectly by the time I finish with it :D

What compromises should I have to make with a modern FI kit? I can't think of any....aside from some minor wear issues. Fit and finish should be perfect in this price bracket, it should drive as expected, and it should be ultra reliable.

Otherwise take it off the market!!


I never said you wanted it to last as long as stock......nevermind :confused:


Sorry mate, I thought you did :doh:

Forgive me? :love2:

[STATIE]

My car probably won't sound as intimidating or tough as some, but it will suit my needs and wants perfectly by the time I finish with it :D



Fair enough - as long as you have thought it through.

BUT - I swear - I wouldn't want to be your supplier/installer/tuner if there happens to be any little niggles after the fact.:lol:

[Uncle Tone]

Fair enough - as long as you have thought it through.

BUT - I swear - I wouldn't want to be your supplier/installer/tuner if there happens to be any little niggles after the fact.:lol:

:lmao: Come on mate I'm not that bad!! :lol:

[Justice R8]

BUT - I swear - I wouldn't want to be your supplier/installer/tuner if there happens to be any little niggles after the fact.:lol:

You are not wrong there. Thank the lord he lives in Melbourne.:):):):)

Just kidding tone

[STATIE]

:lmao: Come on mate I'm not that bad!! :lol:

:rofl:Oh I reckon you would be.:yup:

[Martin_D]

What compromises should I have to make with a modern FI kit? I can't think of any....aside from some minor wear issues. Fit and finish should be perfect in this price bracket, it should drive as expected, and it should be ultra reliable.
Forgive me? :love2:

You are forgiven...and about time this thread has some light relief :)
Tone understand that your first enchilada of freedom lays with one of these suppliers. Modern FI systems truly can be everything a man could want or need out of a daily driven package, and considering the semi-classic nature of the vehicle you need to choose carefully. Remember the driver dont pick the FI kit, the FI kit picks the driver :cool:
All words taken straight from 'Uncle Bobby Bolivia' but true nonetheless! :lol:

Thats him right there - selling away :cool:
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/transformers/_group_photos/shia_labeouf8.jpg

[Redline]

You are forgiven...and about time this thread has some light relief :)
Tone understand that your first enchilada of freedom lays with one of these suppliers. Modern FI systems truly can be everything a man could want or need out of a daily driven package, and considering the semi-classic nature of the vehicle you need to choose carefully. Remember the driver dont pick the FI kit, the FI kit picks the driver :cool:
All words taken straight from 'Uncle Bobby Bolivia' but true nonetheless! :lol:

Thats him right there - selling away :cool:
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/transformers/_group_photos/shia_labeouf8.jpg

Dont you go all Ricky Ricardo on me :lmao:

[Martin_D]

Very valid point....I mean Mick VE is running 12.0 "bolt ons" in a well sorted car...

Extremely valid. Give us a 1.6 60 foot like Micks and I would expect a mid 10 with the Gen-TT VE....watch Project Redback in the upcoming few weeks :cool:

[seedyrom]

Tone, after 2 years of FI, I stripped the engine down.

The reason it let go was do to fuel supply and subsequently running lean.
Two pistons gave up the ghost.


The wear on the engine was nill.

The bearings were like new, apart from the two pistons that smashed the ringlands, the rest were like from the factory ... AND the cylinders still has the hone marks in them!

Every morning I would let the car warm up till it was at least 65 degrees before putting it in drive. I would always drive slowly before I got to my destination and ran the engine for a while to let the turbo cool.

I had a very high maintenance programme on the car, changing oil and filter every 5,000kms/6 months.


I guess you could say I felt quite cheated when my engine went.
It wasn't from a lack of care. It was just bad luck, and upon seeing the opened up engine I KNOW it would have kicked on for a VERY long time on its own.

It does come down to how you drive it, and in the last year I was running 10 psi daily.

Hidden away in a thread (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=771432&postcount=11) I took some photos of my tyres after 12 months of FI. They are still at that tread depth (Admittedly for 5-6 months they haven't been used), but yes, its all about how you drive it, how you treat it and how often you perform basic maintenance.
It's not like I drove like an old lady. But I didn't flog the crap out of it either.

[RED R8]

Extremely valid. Give us a 1.6 60 foot like Micks and I would expect a mid 10 with the Gen-TT VE....watch Project Redback in the upcoming few weeks :cool:
True..........

[Uncle Tone]

Extremely valid. Give us a 1.6 60 foot like Micks and I would expect a mid 10 with the Gen-TT VE....watch Project Redback in the upcoming few weeks :cool:

A mid 10 with ADR compliance? :stick: :lol:

[Redline]

A mid 10 with ADR compliance? :stick: :lol:

Another requirement ??? :stick: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Uncle Tone]

Tone, after 2 years of FI, I stripped the engine down.

The reason it let go was do to fuel supply and subsequently running lean.
Two pistons gave up the ghost.


The wear on the engine was nill.

The bearings were like new, apart from the two pistons that smashed the ringlands, the rest were like from the factory ... AND the cylinders still has the hone marks in them!

Every morning I would let the car warm up till it was at least 65 degrees before putting it in drive. I would always drive slowly before I got to my destination and ran the engine for a while to let the turbo cool.

I had a very high maintenance programme on the car, changing oil and filter every 5,000kms/6 months.


I guess you could say I felt quite cheated when my engine went.
It wasn't from a lack of care. It was just bad luck, and upon seeing the opened up engine I KNOW it would have kicked on for a VERY long time on its own.

It does come down to how you drive it, and in the last year I was running 10 psi daily.

Hidden away in a thread (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=771432&postcount=11) I took some photos of my tyres after 12 months of FI. They are still at that tread depth (Admittedly for 5-6 months they haven't been used), but yes, its all about how you drive it, how you treat it and how often you perform basic maintenance.
It's not like I drove like an old lady. But I didn't flog the crap out of it either.

An insight from one who truly knows the pitfalls. Cheers for that mate :thumbsup: If it wasn't for that leanout it would have probably been exactly as you say.

I hope the people who say the stock fuel system is fine are right......I'd hate for this to happen to me!! :bawl:


Another requirement ??? :stick: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why not, eh? :lmao:

[Ken]

... BUT - I swear - I wouldn't want to be your supplier/installer/tuner if there happens to be any little niggles after the fact.:lol:

Ahhhh ...
But with the right kit, the right support, and the right calibration: what a satisfying result. We like a challenge!

And ... when we exceed Tone's expectations, imagine how impressed the rest of mere mortal humanity will be !!

:lol: :jester: :bow: :lol:

[Justice R8]

[QUOTE][QUOTE=seedyrom;1117444]Tone, after 2 years of FI, I stripped the engine down.

The reason it let go was do to fuel supply and subsequently running lean.
Two pistons gave up the ghost.


The wear on the engine was nill.

The bearings were like new, apart from the two pistons that smashed the ringlands, the rest were like from the factory ... AND the cylinders still has the hone marks in them!


Seedy
I didnt see any pics of your 2 pistons. Maybe you could put them up. But if an engine leans out it will generally deform the piston and melt the piston. It wont smash the ringlands.

Ringlands smash or get crushed by detonation, or in an extreme example a top edge of the piston will break away. I would suggest that you may want to take a bit of timing out before you next adventure.

PS I am not being smart. I would just hate for you to blow it up again. You dont generally hear detonation until its to late.

[seedyrom]

Seedy
I didnt see any pics of your 2 pistons. Maybe you could put them up. But if an engine leans out it will generally deform the piston and melt the piston. It wont smash the ringlands.

Ringlands smash or get crushed by detonation, or in an extreme example a top edge of the piston will break away. I would suggest that you may want to take a bit of timing out before you next adventure.

PS I am not being smart. I would just hate for you to blow it up again. You dont generally hear detonation until its to late.
They were buried within my monster thread

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/DSCN2957.jpg

[Justice R8]

They were buried within my monster thread

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/DSCN2957.jpg

Cant tell from those pics. Take them to someone that understands engines and ask the question on what caused it. I am sure Sam would have a quick look for you and would be able to diagnose what went wrong.

I know you had a feul pressure issue with it dropping. Although that is a problem, it may not be the problem that caused your failure. Most ring land failures i would say are from detonation. I dont want to go off topic but I am just trying clear it up so that people arent scared that the VE fuel system wont cope. We saw with big Joes 122 harrop ran a 550rwhp at summernats back to back and that is on a standard VE fuel system. We have seen what Tunas VE can run as well. Joes is his own car and not a workshop car. Just his daily driver.

[SirNemesis]

Cant tell from those pics. Take them to someone that understands engines and ask the question on what caused it. I am sure Sam would have a quick look for you and would be able to diagnose what went wrong.

I know you had a feul pressure issue with it dropping. Although that is a problem, it may not be the problem that caused your failure. Most ring land failures i would say are from detonation. I dont want to go off topic but I am just trying clear it up so that people arent scared that the VE fuel system wont cope. We saw with big Joes 122 harrop ran a 550rwhp at summernats back to back and that is on a standard VE fuel system. We have seen what Tunas VE can run as well. Joes is his own car and not a workshop car. Just his daily driver.

Wouldn't the lean mixture cause the detonation in the first place?

[seedyrom]

The two pistons in question whilst still in the block

http://www.oz8.org/gallery/albums/Seedyrom/DSCN2915.jpg

A bit hard to see, but they are the two outer ones.

Anyway, thats off topic. My point was, apart from a well publicised incident (publicised by me :)) the fact that a Turbo was on the car, didn't neccessarily mean it was slowly destroying the engine.

Then again, there are others that drive their turbo cars theirs harder than me ... maybe even you Tone.

[Uncle Tone]

Ahhhh ...
But with the right kit, the right support, and the right calibration: what a satisfying result. We like a challenge!

And ... when we exceed Tone's expectations, imagine how impressed the rest of mere mortal humanity will be !!

:lol: :jester: :bow: :lol:

Theres a good chance that you will be able to do that for me Ken!! We shall see very soon :D


My point was, apart from a well publicised incident (publicised by me :)) the fact that a Turbo was on the car, didn't neccessarily mean it was slowly destroying the engine.

Then again, there are others that drive their turbo cars theirs harder than me ... maybe even you Tone.

Of course, it could also mean that the pistons aren't quite up to the job....couldn't it? :confused:

Looking at those ring lands.....they aren't that thick, are they? :errr:

Nobody drives as sedately as me Seedy....I'm the king of slow :D


Seedy
I didnt see any pics of your 2 pistons. Maybe you could put them up. But if an engine leans out it will generally deform the piston and melt the piston. It wont smash the ringlands.

Ringlands smash or get crushed by detonation, or in an extreme example a top edge of the piston will break away. I would suggest that you may want to take a bit of timing out before you next adventure.

PS I am not being smart. I would just hate for you to blow it up again. You dont generally hear detonation until its to late.
Ringlands also break exactly like that when they don't hold up under the strain of forced induction.

[mmciau]

...

Ringlands also break exactly like that when they don't hold up under the strain of forced induction.

It would take "abnormal forces" normally - hydraulic lock, predetonation to name a couple.

I don't "pressure" alone would normally lead to a collapse of the ringlands.

Mike

[Steve-LS2]

When I had my R33 Skyline i was told not to boost it beyond 1 Bar (14.5 psi) due to weak ringlands.

An LS series motor that has never been designed for FI with 10 psi or more put into it may struggle over time, to cope with the boost and the first place they will let go is usually the ringlands.

I'm not saying don't do it Tone, just be aware of what the original design was meant to do.

[Martin_D]

Ringlands dont ever break under the strain of forced induction :teach:
At 10psi of boost in an LS1 engine we will characteristically see the in cylinder pressure peak at something like 860psi over a standard engine being in the 770psi region. If the engine is allowed to detonate through poor tuning those pressure figures will see over 1000psi, and its these short, sharp hammer blows that smash the ring lands. No more, no less :cool:

[TUFFIE]

:lmao: Come on mate I'm not that bad!! :lol:

:rofl: OH Yes you are....:eyes:

ok enough said :1peek:

[Vulture]

If the engine is allowed to detonate through poor tuning those pressure figures will see over 1000psi, and its these short, sharp hammer blows that smash the ring lands. No more, no less :cool:

This would seem to make the most sense to my uneducated mind. Short, sudden increases in pressure causing damage rather than a slow build-up of pressure.

[Curtis-R]

So Tone after 8 very informative pages and some test drives.. 'Wheres your head at"? :confused: Any closer to making a decision yet? :)

[Uncle Tone]

This would seem to make the most sense to my uneducated mind. Short, sudden increases in pressure causing damage rather than a slow build-up of pressure.

Instead of a slow buildup of pressure, think about it as too much pressure. More pressure than those very thin pieces of alloy can handle.

[Martin_D]

Shock load....the same thing that breaks stock driveshafts in 13 second cars......
when 10 second cars that dont tramp the tyres can run the same stock driveshafts day in day out on the track :cool:
What does that tell you? :teach:

[Uncle Tone]

Ringlands dont ever break under the strain of forced induction :teach:

When you go and order a set of turbo pistons for your non-turbo engine, what bit is thicker? :stick:

[Martin_D]

When you go and order a set of turbo pistons for your non-turbo engine, what bit is thicker? :stick:

I have never ordered a 'turbo piston' have you? :eek:

[Uncle Tone]

So Tone after 8 very informative pages and some test drives.. 'Wheres your head at"? :confused: Any closer to making a decision yet? :)

I haven't tried a turbo VE as yet, so in short......nup!! :D

[Little_Lord]

So Tone after 8 very informative pages and some test drives.. 'Wheres your head at"? :confused: Any closer to making a decision yet? :)

No way. This is how UT entertains himself.

[Uncle Tone]

No way. This is how UT entertains himself.

Its UT's "special alone time" or UT's "Happy time" :D

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

WELL WP is not very fast of the line i E/maild them for a price on the red blower setup on thear maloo a week ago no answar yet ? :1peek:

[volt]

WELL WP is not very fast of the line i E/maild them for a price on the red blower setup on thear maloo a week ago no answar yet ? :1peek:

Maybe Power Torque would be worth try as I think they are the Qld WP distributors.

[ATOMIC MALOO R8]

:)
Maybe Power Torque would be worth try as I think they are the Qld WP distributors. yes i will talk to shaun monday:)

[wp01]

:) yes i will talk to shaun monday:)

We are still closed in Melbourne,reopen next Wednesday,although I will be answering all the Q&A questions that have banked up on Monday.

Contact Shaun on Monday as they will have stock of these units and will be able to discuss any options you would like.

AL