Retune From Maff To Maffless

[andypower5.7]

Can someone tell me from going from my maff tune done about 8 weeks ago and wanting to go maffless from the same tuner should i have to pay for a full retune again. As i though i will only have to pay a top up from my existing tune price max around $200.

[Y55-7UT]

what a tool, go else where, is he/she a sponsor

[andypower5.7]

Not sure i sent you a message.

[Stretch]

Find out if they've locked the PCM when they did the edit, if so you'll need them to unlock it which usually means they put it back to standard.

Have you asked them why they're charging you for a full tune again?

[andypower5.7]

Yes i did ask him and this is my reply. As to the cost of the tune – a MAFFless tune means a FULL retune of the car. NOTHING we have done before is of any value whatsoever so the tune is $1,150. As you are an existing customer I am prepared to do the tune for the same price as a MAFF tune so to you it will be $1,000. I dont like saying bad things about anyone or pointing fingers but this really pissed me of.

[Stretch]

Ask them to either unlock it and offer you a partial (Total minus dyno and labour) refund so you can take your business elsewhere or you'll take them to Consumer Affairs.

Or 2nd option ask them to retune for $200 maximum or again you'll take this further with Consumer Affairs.

Finally I strongly suggest you speak to the owner of the workshop and attempt to work this out but if all else fails don't let them get away with it.

[throttlehappy]

sounds like an article in street machine commodores a while ago

"every tune costs $1000"
what a load of shit, if you had a good tuner he would just charge the difference

id be tipping your tune is locked also

[cosmo vyss]

I think this topic may have been covered previously. If the shop would like to have repeat customers then a switch from maff to maffless shouldn't cost the price of a full tune. I was once charged 500 for a touch up after fitting headers, way over the top i thought. Hence why my business goes elsewhere.
This I think is a good indication to take your car elsewhere. I don't like your chances of gettinga refund.

JB

[andypower5.7]

I really dont want a refund i just though it would cost me max $200 as a maff tune is $990 and maffless $1150 so thats $160 difference on top from my last tune from them which i think sounds fair. I am still going down this friday morning and have a talk to the owner which i am willing to lose $200 from work for the day.

[throttlehappy]

I really dont wont a refund i just though it would cost me max $200 as a maff tune is $990 and maffless $1150 so thats $160 difference.

workshop?
give chev a call, seems like alot of guys end up going to him
i can tell you one thing and thats im glad i went went to him straight up and didnt go from place to place like alot of guys seem to do

[planetdavo]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a TOTALLY DIFFERENT mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.

[Ahyeah]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a TOTALLY DIFFERENT mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.

yeah i tend to agree. But I woulda thought that $100 would have been enough to go maffless because the dyno stuff was done, the the other $100 to add the stuff u want (touch up part).

Try reason with them, if not go elsewhere they might be able to do it.

Hope it goes well mate:)

[Stretch]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a [U]TOTALLY DIFFERENT[U] mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.


Andy did the workshop state anything to you the 1st time that if you weren't happy with the result what they'd be willing to do as I know the workshop I got the cam package said if I wasn't ahppy they'd be willing to put i back to standard with a full refund and would only charge a minimal amount for any further work that required the tune to be redone?

[throttlehappy]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a TOTALLY DIFFERENT mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.

its a tune, not paint
obviously the said business doesnt care about keeping customers who laid out said money and would most likely spend further money in the future

reminds me of when a mate with a vx calais went to get his car tuned at a sponsers workshop but because he had had all the bolt on bits allready fitted elsewhere they wouldnt give him the time of day, didnt want to know him. he called them arseholes infact and this coming from one of the nicest guys i know

[andypower5.7]

Yes they did they said to come back as many times as i want until i am happy with the tune.

[DuffMan]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a TOTALLY DIFFERENT mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.

No offence Andy, but I was thinking the exact same thing. You made your choice, had nothing wrong with it and decided you wan't something better. Buisnesses are there to make money, don't act surprised.

[Stretch]

Throttlehappy sounds like the same place I called when getting prices, couldn't believe their comments "we don't deal with inferior products, go to xx we refuse to tune your car"

[FANG IT 350]

i was always under the impression that to go maffless the car had to be totally retuned regardless if it had already been tuned for the maff ,if thats the case the tuner is within his rights,but ud rekon they could atleast knock some money off the retune cause u went back to them,if its the same guys who done my car then the pcm has been locked so your stuck with them.

[andypower5.7]

Thats the main reason Duffman i am going back because i wasnt fully happy with the tune so i though i will go maffless while i am going back. And i didnt make my choice as they told me a few times to come back if i am not happy so thats what i am doing GOING BY THERE WORD regardless maffless or not. Yes they are there to make money but they should look after there customers better than that. And Stretch that place wouldnt be of the hume hwy near the ford factory by any chance as i went there aswell and the same was said to me and my brother in law and told them were to go.

[throttlehappy]

Thats the main reason i am going back because i wasnt fully happy with the tune so i though i will go maffless while i am going back. And i didnt make my choice as they told me a few times to come back if i am not happy so thats what i am doing yes they are there to make money but they should look after there customers better than that.

you really should of decided before you got it done but you shouldnt be charged full price

[jay_88]

You suggest taking a business to consumer affairs because a customer chose one type of product, but through absolutely no reason other than a change of mind, he now wants a TOTALLY DIFFERENT mafless tune, the business is obliged to offer a heavy discount?
GET REAL PEOPLE!!!!!
Working on this theory, if you went to a panel shop and told them to paint your car red, but you decide eight weeks later that you really prefer yellow, they should virtually give it to you, simply because you changed your mind?
I seriously can't believe what people genuinely expect in this thread. A "touch up" to a tune is for a different exhaust, diff ratio change, OTR air intake etc, NOT a FULL retune in a different style.

It all really depend, your example was changing a colour of a panel 8 weeks later which takes the same amount of time as the previous colour so obviosly its gona cost the same,i know absolutly nothing about tuning but if it only takes a fraction of the time tuning the maf tune ,for example the maff tune took 4 hours and to upgrade to maffless only takes 30 mins then i think a dscount should be offered.

[planetdavo]

Thats the main reason i am going back because i wasnt fully happy with the tune so i though i will go maffless while i am going back. And i didnt make my choice as they told me a few times to come back if i am not happy so thats what i am doing yes they are there to make money but they should look after there customers better than that.
Option 1- "Unhappy" with the tune, because you feel there is a true problem with it.
Option 2- "Unhappy" because your "mate" said you would get 20 extra kW's with a mafless tune.
Something for you all to think about there...
Standing behind the mantra of "good business" is rubbish with this thread. He simply changed his mind, and people that keep changing their minds with their cars just keep wasting money!

[HSVGTS215i]

Yes i did ask him and this is my reply. As to the cost of the tune – a MAFFless tune means a FULL retune of the car. NOTHING we have done before is of any value whatsoever so the tune is $1,150. As you are an existing customer I am prepared to do the tune for the same price as a MAFF tune so to you it will be $1,000. I dont like saying bad things about anyone or pointing fingers but this really pissed me of.

Hope you got a custom tune on the dyno for that thousand buck maf tune and not a generic tune

[Stretch]

Funny as I already mentioned if they subtract their costs the rest is all software related so it's not like a physical item that has to be restocked again and marked down at a reduced price.

After 10 years as a retail manager some of the refunds we ended up having to provide to "customers" that used and abused goods for >1yr and complained to head office was astounding and we'd have to provide a full refund of the original purchase price when the reason was "i don't need this item anymore"

My point is always speak to the person in charge because in the end it's their business and reputation that's at stake.

If you missed your 10k service and get it done at 20k would workshops seriously charge you both the 10 and 20K service prices combined and change your oil twice?

[andypower5.7]

I wanted it maffless at first as i posted this elsewere not long ago and told me maff is a better tune thats why i didnt go maffless otherwise i would of done it straight away thats for sure. As i emailed the guy after a few emails and said to come down and we will do it for you as i will be happy with the outcome regardless so i said no worries it will only cost me the difference from maff to maffless which is $160 which i thought.

[DuffMan]

Thats the main reason Duffman i am going back because i wasnt fully happy with the tune so i though i will go maffless while i am going back. And i didnt make my choice as they told me a few times to come back if i am not happy so thats what i am doing GOING BY THERE WORD regardless maffless or not. Yes they are there to make money but they should look after there customers better than that.

I think it all comes down to whether or not it has to be fully re-tuned to convert to maffless. I don't know if thats the case, but i'm sure someone will jump on here soon enough with an answer to that for you.

If it just requires a touchup, then they should look after their customers a little better than that as you say. As said however, this may not be the case.

May I ask what exactly it is about the tune your not happy with?

[Ahyeah]

Option 1- "Unhappy" with the tune, because you feel there is a true problem with it.
Option 2- "Unhappy" because your "mate" said you would get 20 extra kW's with a mafless tune.
Something for you all to think about there...Standing behind the mantra of "good business" is rubbish with this thread. He simply changed his mind, and people that keep changing their minds with their cars just keep wasting money!

thanks for giving everyone a lecture...

a loyal customer should get a discount, thats why they become loyal in the first place, they get 'looked after'.... even holden give discounts if you buy 2 cars in the space of 6 months, instead of 2 cars in the space of 6 years, its true dont deny it.

[andypower5.7]

Duffman this is what i am not happy with. Shift points, gears holding on at certain speeds like reving out not changing straight away, and at idle sometimes the car idles very rough and by the way there is nothing wrong with my tranny as i got it checked out.

[HSVGTS215i]

If you missed your 10k service and get it done at 20k would workshops seriously charge you both the 10 and 20K service prices combined and change your oil twice?


Makes no sense, stupid comparison. He did get the maf tune done now wants mafless. Hes not getting charged for a maf and a mafless without having the maf done is he?

[Stretch]

My point was:

A. He said they told him at initial point of sale if not happy with a MAF tune come back and we'll do it maffless, he asked for maffless in the first place.

B. The service analagy was merely stating a point as to how a workshop can charge full price again if work was already done. The point was to demonstrate that even missing a service from my own personal experience a workshop wouldn't double charge you so why should this workshop charge twice after doing the initial work and offered him to go back.

[DuffMan]

Duffman this is what i am not happy with. Shift points, gears holding on at certain speeds like reving out not changing straight away, and at idle sometimes the car idles very rough and by the way there is nothing wrong with my tranny as i got it checked out.

All sound like things that can be corrected with the current maf tune. Hate to say it, but if the workshop cannot get a full custom $1000 maf tune right the first time, what makes you think they can do a maf-less any better?

It sounds like you should get them to try and correct your current tune to what you want before spending extra $$ on maf-less.

[DVS VT Clubby]

Maff and Maffless tunes are two totally different tunes and there is a bit more involved in doing a maffless tune. It's a bit more complicated than just a top up and there are a few more hours dyno time to be had by converting to maffless as its a totally new tune. You can't blame the shop for you choosing to go with a maff tune in the first place it was your choice, as was you having a change of hart after the job was done. Put your self in the tuners shoes, he's running a business to make a living not for the convenience of customers.

[HSVREDSLED]

Maff and Maffless tunes are two totally different tunes and there is a bit more involved in doing a maffless tune. It's a bit more complicated than just a top up and there are a few more hours dyno time to be had by converting to maffless as its a totally new tune. You can't blame the shop for you choosing to go with a maff tune in the first place it was your choice, as was you having a change of hart after the job was done. Put your self in the tuners shoes, he's running a business to make a living not for the convenience of customers.


Ahhh..but the good business men/women take into consideration loyal customers who have all ready handed over some folding stuff. Word of mouth is always the best form of reputation. Unless the said tuner has cars queued up down his driveway waiting for tunes, the tuner should give him a discount for the brazilian tune IMHO.

[ringram]

Lots of bollocks.

Im surprised none of the other tuners have made comment.
Any "proper" maf tune will involve a full mafless tune first, then a maf tune on top.
You cant do a proper full tune without doing mafless first. Of course you can do a shortcut crap tune by hardly changing anything.
So in theory if the tune is good all you need to do is disconnect the maf and there you go, fully tuned mafless. Now if you remove the MAF you are removing the restriction and you will get more airflow, so will probably need a check of your VE table, but we are only talking small amounts here, especially on a stock engine.

Sounds like the original tune was shit to me.

[Stretch]

Either way it's unfortunate he'll end up paying for it regardless of who does it now.

Imagine retailers having this philosophy. Customer goes in to buy Brand X plasma / LCD TV after carefully reviewing the options the store rep says go with Brand Y as it's better and a bit cheaper (more profit). Rep clinches the deal by offering a money back guarantee / offer to exchange if not happy with said TV.

Customer goes home with Brand Y and after a few weeks goes back to the store disappointed and asks for an exchange to Brand X and rep says sorry no exchange but will sell you Brand X for full price or small discount.

[planetdavo]

thanks for giving everyone a lecture...

a loyal customer should get a discount, thats why they become loyal in the first place, they get 'looked after'.... even holden give discounts if you buy 2 cars in the space of 6 months, instead of 2 cars in the space of 6 years, its true dont deny it.
If you really think that's relevant to this thread....

Lots of people simply don't want to be held responsible for their own actions anymore, and that's what this thread is all about.
He obviously didn't do enough homework in the first place (plus I get the impression this story has grown a few extra "facts" since it started), now many are suggesting it's the tuners "responsibility" to fix up HIS supposed mistake.

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS PEOPLE.

I hope he ends up happy in the end.

[andypower5.7]

I done plenty of homework for weeks actually. Where does this seem to be my mistake i didnt do the tune its not a mistake that i went with a maff tune its just since i will be going back i want to go maffless for a bit of a charge thats all.

[Stretch]

Based on what's been bought to light the workshop also shares responsibility

[Ahyeah]

If you really think that's relevant to this thread....

Lots of people simply don't want to be held responsible for their own actions anymore, and that's what this thread is all about.
He obviously didn't do enough homework in the first place (plus I get the impression this story has grown a few extra "facts" since it started), now many are suggesting it's the tuners "responsibility" to fix up HIS supposed mistake.

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS PEOPLE.

I hope he ends up happy in the end.

how is painting a car relevent then:confused:

the majority of the work has been paid for, why o why would he want to pay for the same thing again? explain that to me?

righto boss *takes mental note to take more responsibility*

[Brumby]

Proper maffless tune takes a lot of time to get correct usally need sit overnight to ensure all relevent parameters like cold start are correct. The tuner in question has a lot of experience it maybe a communication break down with the auto shift points it is impossible for a tuner to tune auto shift point exactly right for every individuals driving style.You might need to go for a drive with tuner to let him see how you drive. As for retune cost i guess the desicion is up to you if i were you i would get the other things fixed and wait awhile and maybe do a cam at the same time to justify the cost.

[Justice R8]

Proper maffless tune takes a lot of time to get correct usally need sit overnight to ensure all relevent parameters like cold start are correct. The tuner in question has a lot of experience it maybe a communication break down with the auto shift points it is impossible for a tuner to tune auto shift point exactly right for every individuals driving style.You might need to go for a drive with tuner to let him see how you drive. As for retune cost i guess the desicion is up to you if i were you i would get the other things fixed and wait awhile and maybe do a cam at the same time to justify the cost.

It doesnt take long on a standard car at all. I would be surprised if it took any longer than 30minutes and 2 power runs for someone that knows what they are doing. It is different for a big cam or a car that has probs but this sounds like all standard to me

This is where people get all cut up. paying 1500 bucks for a tune that takes 1/2 hour, so they go to someone that takes a day and needs to keep it overnight to get cold start right. Why do they need to keep it all day and overnight? Generally because the tuner dont know what the fark they are doing.

People should focus on paying for the result instead of how much time is spent on it. This poor guy may have had plenty of time and it doesnt equal a ten minute tune from someone that knows what they are doing.

What concerned me was the tuner said keep bringing it back until you are happy!! WTF It should have been set and forget. Its a standard car for gods sake.


Andypower
you have been here a few years now so you should know who the idiots are!! and where to avoid. Looks like you drove straight into them. The upgrade should cost you very little. the GTS pipe and a bit of dyno time tops.

Throttlehappy

Dont know why a sponsor wouldnt do your mates car because he already had the bolt ons. Tuning a standard car is money for Jam.

[SS Enforcer]

Sounds like your getting stooged mate.

If your car is a bolt on the tuner in question will have plenty of bolt on tunes allready in his laptop that he can flash in and be sure it's pretty close then all he needs to do is touch it up. About 5 mins for the reflash a couple of power runs to check AFR'S and KR.

Your an existing customer and you just want an upgrade and it should be priced accordingly.

I get Oztrack to tune my car and he does a great job and as I am an existing customer I only pay $200 for retunes when I have had cam and or heads changed. Thats Steves advertised fee.

How many tuners on this site even advertise their pricing upfront. How often do you see someone ask a sponsor a question in a thread to be met with a "give me a call" answer.

Name the shop so others will know what their policy is before they hand over their $$.

cheers

[OLS108]

Sounds like your getting stooged mate.

If your car is a bolt on the tuner in question will have plenty of bolt on tunes allready in his laptop that he can flash in and be sure it's pretty close then all he needs to do is touch it up. About 5 mins for the reflash a couple of power runs to check AFR'S and KR.

Your an existing customer and you just want an upgrade and it should be priced accordingly.

I get Oztrack to tune my car and he does a great job and as I am an existing customer I only pay $200 for retunes when I have had cam and or heads changed. Thats Steves advertised fee.

How many tuners on this site even advertise their pricing upfront. How often do you see someone ask a sponsor a question in a thread to be met with a "give me a call" answer.

Name the shop so others will know what their policy is before they hand over their $$.

cheers

Agreed, i am sure all workshops have a Good base tune for almost every application, takes 3.30mins to flash it in and then adjust from there..
i think charging full price is BULLSHIT, if it were me i would go elsewhere.. because later on your going to want to update or get more mods.. and he sounds like the last bloke you want to go back for touch up's.

Dave

[macca_779]

Lots of bollocks.

Im surprised none of the other tuners have made comment.
Any "proper" maf tune will involve a full mafless tune first, then a maf tune on top.
You cant do a proper full tune without doing mafless first. Of course you can do a shortcut crap tune by hardly changing anything.
So in theory if the tune is good all you need to do is disconnect the maf and there you go, fully tuned mafless. Now if you remove the MAF you are removing the restriction and you will get more airflow, so will probably need a check of your VE table, but we are only talking small amounts here, especially on a stock engine.

Sounds like the original tune was shit to me.

Hey ringram, you know I agree with you 100% mate but lets face facts. How many shops do you rekon complete a full SD tune prior to dialing in the MAF. Easy answer I'm going for is none. If they did, MAF tunes would cost more as both you and I know it takes a shit load more time to dial in VE, then dial in the MAF than it does to just say stuff it and leave the primary airflow calculation stock.

[planetdavo]

how is painting a car relevent then:confused:

My example is about someone CHANGING THEIR MIND after paying, just like someone getting their car painted would.
Your example is about a loyal customer. One purchase off a tuner is hardly a "loyal" customer.
Maybe now you see the difference. Going off some of your recent input though, perhaps you won't...

He claims he did LOTS of homework, yet was convinced to change his mind (supposedly), now wants them to basically accept the blaim for convincing him to do it, hence he "deserves" a full mafless tune now for just the extra upgrade price as some form of compensation for their wrongdoing.

Like I said, people need to accept responsibility for their actions. If you end up unhappy with your choice, you LEARN FROM IT!

[Ahyeah]

My example is about someone CHANGING THEIR MIND after paying, just like someone getting their car painted would.
Your example is about a loyal customer. One purchase off a tuner is hardly a "loyal" customer.
Maybe now you see the difference. Going off some of your recent input though, perhaps you won't...

He claims he did LOTS of homework, yet was convinced to change his mind (supposedly), now wants them to basically accept the blaim for convincing him to do it, hence he "deserves" a full mafless tune now for just the extra upgrade price as some form of compensation for their wrongdoing.

Like I said, people need to accept responsibility for their actions. If you end up unhappy with your choice, you LEARN FROM IT!


you are a fool.:stick:

what exactly are we learning? you think that being human and all no one can possibly make a mistake? fair enough, maybe it wasnt thought through 100%, but ffs the replys to this thread saying that full price is way too much still cant change your stubborn mind???

oh, and to have a loyal customer you have to make sure they come back, so you offer a special service (or alike). You dont charge full price for something that only costs a fraction of the price.

no one said he deserves anything.. there saying that he is getting ripped off, why are we not allowed to discuss this?

ok boss?

[Justice R8]

Sounds like your getting stooged mate.

If your car is a bolt on the tuner in question will have plenty of bolt on tunes allready in his laptop that he can flash in and be sure it's pretty close then all he needs to do is touch it up. About 5 mins for the reflash a couple of power runs to check AFR'S and KR.

Your an existing customer and you just want an upgrade and it should be priced accordingly.

I get Oztrack to tune my car and he does a great job and as I am an existing customer I only pay $200 for retunes when I have had cam and or heads changed. Thats Steves advertised fee.

How many tuners on this site even advertise their pricing upfront. How often do you see someone ask a sponsor a question in a thread to be met with a "give me a call" answer.

Name the shop so others will know what their policy is before they hand over their $$.

cheers

Most tuners have a shop. Oz is a mobile guy. Shops have rent, insurance staff etc to pay hence they may not be as cheap. Great you use Oz and good luck, but when comparing, make sure you compare apples and apples.

Agree with name the shop though

[seldo]

Most tuners have a shop. Oz is a mobile guy. Shops have rent, insurance staff etc to pay hence they may not be as cheap. Great you use Oz and good luck, but when comparing, make sure you compare apples and apples.

Agree with name the shop though
Brief-case Autos...??

[DaveHAT]

Most tuners have a shop. Oz is a mobile guy. Shops have rent, insurance staff etc to pay hence they may not be as cheap. Great you use Oz and good luck, but when comparing, make sure you compare apples and apples.

Agree with name the shop though

Info is in here Darren ...

Australian LS1 and Holden Forums (http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=90500) :)

Andy ... whilst I wish you the best of luck with sorting this tuning business out to your satisfaction ... you do seem intent on doing things the hard way when there are well trodden routes you could take that could save you many hassles and $$$.

[monaro_mad]

I find it hard to believe that no other tuners on this forum have spoken up about this, is it common to charge their existing customers full price for a change in tune or not? I can understand it if say you put a cam etc major engine/power changes would require it, but maff to mafless?

[TimVYSS]

I had a MAF tune done in July 06 by PowerTorque and an upgrade done to a MAFless tune done in August 07 again by PowerTorque for the princely sum of $200. I was a loyal customer with them and they looked after me. From memory the upgrade from Maf to Mafless only took about an hour as well.

Cheers

Tim

[EXCESSV]

Lots of bollocks.

Im surprised none of the other tuners have made comment.
Any "proper" maf tune will involve a full mafless tune first, then a maf tune on top.
You cant do a proper full tune without doing mafless first. Of course you can do a shortcut crap tune by hardly changing anything.
So in theory if the tune is good all you need to do is disconnect the maf and there you go, fully tuned mafless. Now if you remove the MAF you are removing the restriction and you will get more airflow, so will probably need a check of your VE table, but we are only talking small amounts here, especially on a stock engine.

Sounds like the original tune was shit to me.:bravo::bow: the man speaks the truth!

agree totally mate

I find it hard to believe that no other tuners on this forum have spoken up about this, is it common to charge their existing customers full price for a change in tune or not? I can understand it if say you put a cam etc major engine/power changes would require it, but maff to mafless?other tuners dont comment because some charge the difference between maf to mafless but some charge full amount both times

i know with my tunes at Chipmaster i only paid the difference between the Maf to Mafless tunes....not for two full tunes which some forum sponsors do charge

not sure how it works with cams tho as they do cold starts, etc and need to tune the car over two days for the whole cool down cold start thing and also alot more work required to tune a cam than a bolt ons car

[NickS]

Most tuners have a shop. Oz is a mobile guy. Shops have rent, insurance staff etc to pay hence they may not be as cheap.

Exactly right ... a decent sized workshop in Sydney would probably cost $5,000pm in rent as an absolute minimum (quite possibly significantly more). Plus the dyno ... no exactly a cheap piece of equipment to purchase / maintain or eventually replace.

[Delco]

I find it hard to believe that no other tuners on this forum have spoken up about this, is it common to charge their existing customers full price for a change in tune or not? I can understand it if say you put a cam etc major engine/power changes would require it, but maff to mafless?

We only charge a upgrade price if going from maf - mafless on a car we have tuned before .

[RED R8]

I think everyone needs to ask every tuner when they get a tune how much touch ups are and how much it will cost if you upgrade down the track. I have heard of a bloke who paid $1500 for his maffless tune then $1500 when his cam went in then another $1500 was wanted when he put heads on ....all tunes were from the same tuner WTF $4500 for three tunes needless to say he has now gone elsewhere.

[exwrx]

Sounds like Electronic Automotive to me...

[VXSS346]

IMO no one can comment on this issue accurately unless the other side of the story is heard. My 2c.
That is a general comment, nothing to do with this particular thread.

I'd say go back and have another word with them.

Good Luck Andy, hope you get it sorted. :)

Cheers

[cuspub]

Lots of bollocks.

Im surprised none of the other tuners have made comment.
Any "proper" maf tune will involve a full mafless tune first, then a maf tune on top.
You cant do a proper full tune without doing mafless first. Of course you can do a shortcut crap tune by hardly changing anything.
So in theory if the tune is good all you need to do is disconnect the maf and there you go, fully tuned mafless. Now if you remove the MAF you are removing the restriction and you will get more airflow, so will probably need a check of your VE table, but we are only talking small amounts here, especially on a stock engine.

Sounds like the original tune was shit to me.

Please do not take the following as anything other than an effort to be constructive.

I have no interest in the 'he said, she said scenario', rather as a supplier of Tuning Software, let me simply suggest that the difference between a Maf and Maf-less tune is a compete Custom Operating System change.

Some have stated in this thread that for a full Maf-less tune it is best to perform cold start the following morning, which is quite true although not always possible. The reality is that to perform a complete change does take time - irrespective of whether a tuner has a 'stock' file they can refer to initially.

Understand that a properly equipped workshop has significant overheads, a dyno valued at up to $180,000 depending on whether it is 4 or 2WD), they have spent money on software and importantly, they may have spent years learning the software and their craft. This is in effect IP, something that you simply can't put a figure on.

Whether the shop in question wants to charge 50 cents or $5000, while another shop will charge differently, this should be considered irrelevant as every business is different and should not be compared directly.

I suspect that some discussion with the workshop manager or shop owner is appropriate, perhaps moreso than discussing it in great detail here.

And finally, Ringham, what you have stated that to perform a Maf tune you must do a Maf-less tune first is in fact entirely incorrect. Indeed I would suggest that not one of the 200+ workshops equipped with our software would do this.

Cheers.

[yella terra]

i know with my tunes at Chipmaster i only paid the difference between the Maf to Mafless tunes....not for two full tunes which some forum sponsors do charge

not sure how it works with cams tho as they do cold starts, etc and need to tune the car over two days for the whole cool down cold start thing and also alot more work required to tune a cam than a bolt ons car

Wouldn't it be better to speak about your own car & tuning, rather than attempt to drag any other forum sponsors into it. I assume from your post, that you have had tunes at these other sponsors to be able to comment???

If you have had these bad, overcharged experiences with other tuners, then why not name them...it would probably help all new forum users.

[Delco]

Please do not take the following as anything other than an effort to be constructive.

And finally, Ringham, what you have stated that to perform a Maf tune you must do a Maf-less tune first is in fact entirely incorrect. Indeed I would suggest that not one of the 200+ workshops equipped with our software would do this.

Cheers.


That could be why there are so many poor quality tunes out there , if the backup VE is incorrect then transitions will not be right.
Any tune should be done as GM did , tune the VE table then if a maf tune tune then MAF table then tune PE mode etc , unfortunately we see all too often people just tuning the PE mode and fogetting about the basics of doing a proper tune.


Yes we wear the cost when doing a upgrade to a custom operating system but it is all part of our customer service.

[Scott@VCM]

We only charge a upgrade price if going from maf - mafless on a car we have tuned before .


Yes we wear the cost when doing a upgrade to a custom operating system but it is all part of our customer service.


Just curious; which one is it? You seem to be going both ways?

[Delco]

Just curious; which one is it? You seem to be going both ways?You need to read it properly , I wear the cost of extra time and dyno etc over and above the $200 extra we charge as long as the car hasnt changed significantly.

So in short if we have tuned a customers car with a maf , and then they upgrade to a mafless they only pay the difference + any cold air etc they need

It comes down to the individual shop I suppose , we value our customers and hope to keep then when they upgrade their cars in the future.

[Scott@VCM]

Andrew,

can you clear up a couple of things for me:

Did the tuner say they would upgrade you to a maffless tune at no charge if you were not happy?

Were you unhappy with the maf tune (other than shift points and rough idle)? I read the other thread and you seemed happy with them then. Have you told them you are unhappy about these issues and if so what was their response?

I have also read the thread about your OTR decision, so is the reason for the maffless tune just because you have decided to go OTR? or are you genuinely unhappy with the maf tune?

The reason for my questions is that I am looking to go down a similar path and would like to have all the right questions in place before I talk to the tuner.

ta.. Scott

[EXCESSV]

Wouldn't it be better to speak about your own car & tuning, rather than attempt to drag any other forum sponsors into it. I assume from your post, that you have had tunes at these other sponsors to be able to comment???

If you have had these bad, overcharged experiences with other tuners, then why not name them...it would probably help all new forum users.
a) i did speak about my own car and tuning...i did say

my tunes at Chipmaster i only paid the difference between the Maf to Mafless tunes

b) i havent had tunes at other places but HAVE enquired at both forum and non forum sponsors regarding tunes, upgrades and touch ups etc both locally and interstate for both my VE and my previous HSV

[yella terra]

a) i did speak about my own car and tuning...i did say


b) i havent had tunes at other places but HAVE enquired at both forum and non forum sponsors regarding tunes, upgrades and touch ups etc both locally and interstate for both my VE and my previous HSV

We are talking about an upgrade here, are we not. From the same shop. Not quotes from here there and everywhere for this that or the other.

Hence I asked if you had re-tunes/upgrades/touch-ups from other tuners. If you haven't had these experiences, IMO, it seems misleading to have 'comments' about any workshop, if you yourself, have not been personally involved.

[EXCESSV]

We are talking about an upgrade here, are we not. From the same shop. Not quotes from here there and everywhere for this that or the other.

Hence I asked if you had re-tunes/upgrades/touch-ups from other tuners. If you haven't had these experiences, IMO, it seems misleading to have 'comments' about any workshop, if you yourself, have not been personally involved.sorry mr ls1.com.au for commenting on a topic where friends have had experiences the same as the original poster....please forgive me :rolleyes:

[WA VTGEN111]

a) i did speak about my own car and tuning...i did say


b) i havent had tunes at other places but HAVE enquired at both forum and non forum sponsors regarding tunes, upgrades and touch ups etc both locally and interstate for both my VE and my previous HSV


Hi Dean


Both WA Performance & WA's other forum sponsor only charge an upgrade price to go from Maf to Mafless tunes if they are an existing customer, hope this helps dispel any myths.


Regards
Deb

[throttlehappy]

Throttlehappy

Dont know why a sponsor wouldnt do your mates car because he already had the bolt ons. Tuning a standard car is money for Jam.

either do i
couldnt be bothered i quess

[planetdavo]

you are a fool.:stick:

I don't really care what you think of me! :moon:
You've told me I'm a tool, a fool and an idiot in various threads, so I hardly rate your judgement as worth anything!

I have to ask one question though, that has not been answered.
If this maf tune is for some reason now so bad, WHY does Andy believe the same place doing a mafless tune will suddenly be so good?

[Ahyeah]

I don't really care what you think of me! :moon:
You've told me I'm a tool, a fool and an idiot in various threads, so I hardly rate your judgement as worth anything!

I have to ask one question though, that has not been answered.
If this maf tune is for some reason now so bad, WHY does Andy believe the same place doing a mafless tune will suddenly be so good?

your very competent at dishing out constructive criticism yourself you know? and i never called you an idiot, a tool yes, and now a fool.

he never said it was going to be 'so good', if he goes to a different place they can charge full price (or most likely will), i think he is hoping that the maff tune was done at that place so the maffless would be a piece of pie, hence, the cheaper price.

thanks for keeping me honest davegod:)

[macca33]

Andy, I remember your queries regarding MAF vs MAFless, etc when you were looking at a tune. If you wanted MAFless and were talked into MAF tune by the tuner, then there would have been some reason for that AND you have actually agreed to this course of action. So, I suggest that you go and speak to them personally and try to sort out an arrangement that is mutually agreed upon.

If the car isn't running as good as it should, then that is one issue. If you wish to go MAFless, then that is a separate issue again and a cost should be levied for that service.

In saying that a cost ought to be involved, I cannot agree that it should be that expensive ($1k), given that a licence only costs around $100-150 and you're still getting a bolt-on only car re-tuned. I think that the cost of a licence and dyno time would be in the ball-park in these circumstances - however, that is only my opinion.

Lastly, I would also point out, that you have to be certain about what you want. You cannot change your mind halfway through and expect people to drop everything to suit you.

Cheers and good luck,

Macca

[andypower5.7]

I didnt change my mind half way through as my car has been like this for 8 weeks now as there was the christmas holidays and they were changing location thats why i havent been back since. And since i was going back for a retune i would like to go maffless while i am there as i bought a OTR. Anyway i spoke to my tuner and we will sort it out which is good.

[boyley]

One would have to say that anyone that gets a MAF Tune must have rocks (in Head)

Even if your car is under warranty you can keep all the original parts (including PCM) for refit when services or warranty issues arise.

I think the evidence is substantial enough, surely?

[Ahyeah]

I didnt change my mind half way through as my car has been like this for 8 weeks now as there was the christmas holidays and they were changing location thats why i havent been back since. And since i was going back for a retune i would like to go maffless while i am there as i bought a OTR. Anyway i spoke to my tuner and we will sort it out which is good.


well done mate, glad the outcome was good!!!

you will be impressed with the OTR:burnout:

[boyley]

well done mate, glad the outcome was good!!!

you will be impressed with the OTR:burnout:

Ditto, could not agree more

[planetdavo]

thanks for keeping me honest dave
It's my pleasure to have helped you out.


Anyway i spoke to my tuner and we will sort it out which is good.
Sorry to be so brutally honest, but if this conversation had happened in the first place, this (now) six page thread would have been rather unnecessary....

[STATIE]

It's my pleasure to have helped you out.


Sorry to be so brutally honest, but if this conversation had happened in the first place, this (now) six page thread would have been rather unnecessary....


Eggzacery:bash:

[Ahyeah]

Eggzacery:bash:

haha its true, but thats what makes ls1.com.au great, if you need to know the smallest, strangest, weirdest problem you can hit the search and will most likely find it... its like the gospel, its all here:nyuk:

[STATIE]

haha its true, but thats what makes ls1.com.au great, if you need to know the smallest, strangest, weirdest problem you can hit the search and will most likely find it... its like the gospel, its all here:nyuk:

Yep - everything on four wheels from foreskins to tuning your own car - this joints got it.

[ringram]

Sorry to be so brutally honest, but if this conversation had happened in the first place, this (now) six page thread would have been rather unnecessary....

Change your forum layout settings mate, on my settings its only 2 pages :)
Makes it much easier to skip the crap posts.. (Like this one of mine)

[planetdavo]

Change your forum layout settings mate, on my settings its only 2 pages :)
Makes it much easier to skip the crap posts.. (Like this one of mine)
You're alright.
I find that if I block only six people's input into this forum, around HALF of the crap no longer shows up anymore!
I'm not really surprised.

[andypower5.7]

Hi Ahyeah i hope i am happy with the OTR aswell looking forward to it very much so.

[VXSS346]

At least some good news there Andy. Glad it could be sorted out :)

Keep us posted.

[JezzaB]

Lots of bollocks.

Im surprised none of the other tuners have made comment.
Any "proper" maf tune will involve a full mafless tune first, then a maf tune on top.
You cant do a proper full tune without doing mafless first. Of course you can do a shortcut crap tune by hardly changing anything.
So in theory if the tune is good all you need to do is disconnect the maf and there you go, fully tuned mafless. Now if you remove the MAF you are removing the restriction and you will get more airflow, so will probably need a check of your VE table, but we are only talking small amounts here, especially on a stock engine.

Sounds like the original tune was shit to me.

Totally correct. But unfortunately thats just not the way its done.

[SS Enforcer]

Most tuners have a shop. Oz is a mobile guy. Shops have rent, insurance staff etc to pay hence they may not be as cheap. Great you use Oz and good luck, but when comparing, make sure you compare apples and apples.

Agree with name the shop though

I understand your point Darren however I was just making the point that Steve is upfront regarding what he charges so there can be no confusion for any potential customer afterwards.

cheers

[Justice R8]

I didnt change my mind half way through as my car has been like this for 8 weeks now as there was the christmas holidays and they were changing location thats why i havent been back since. And since i was going back for a retune i would like to go maffless while i am there as i bought a OTR. Anyway i spoke to my tuner and we will sort it out which is good.

I am curious though. Did you call him or did he call you?:) Id sway towards it was him him calling you so I would say that he is giving good service by calling you to sort it out.

Bottom line is it is all good in the end. The guy that tuned it knows exactly what he is doing and it was explained.

[andypower5.7]

Hi guys got my car tuned Maffless and the OTR put on today **** what a difference. It pulls much harder than before and seems to go much smoother its hard to explain, and wheel spins from take off continuously no worries even at kick down wheel spins and gives a big chirp love it by the way i am not a speed freak or a hoon just letting you know how it goes. I currently had before 221rwks, and now 233rwks a 12rwk gain not bad as i didnt expect that much. I would like to thank Mario for his outstanding work and Ross for his advice and organising the tune thankyou as i really appreciate you guys for helping me out. Will be going to calder to see if i can get a low 13's or high 12's at the strip.

[VXSS346]

Glad to hear its all sorted now, enjoy.

Cheers :)

[andypower5.7]

The final look.

[WOMBIE]

I've had my eye on this thread andy and i'm really glad it has all fallen into place for you mate.

Now all you have to do is enjoy your ride :)

Darren

[andypower5.7]

Thanks WOMBIE now its fun to drive.http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/ANDYSONE/OTR2.jpg