HELP! Power Steering Pulley PROBLEM!

[RATTLER]

This happened to me yesterday! The engine has done 500kms! The power steering pump is brand new and not seized. What sort of warranty come with these 8rib pulley set ups? Do you do a power steering pulley in stainless steel?

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[hsv-105]

Lucky it didn't go flying around the engine bay Scotty and take out a fuel line or something.
I had the shaft that connects the top pulley that drives the blower snap on mine and that made a fair mess.
Maybe look at an electric power steering pump - that's what I've down with my GTO.
The way I see it is that the less gear your running off that serpentine belt the less that can go wrong especially with high HP applications.
Along with the Meziere 55 GPH electric water pump the only item that now runs off the belt is the alternator.
It's a big ask of the belt to drive the blower and all the accessories and sure you can go down the path of making everything stronger and heavier but at some stage this must impact on the longevity of the belts,bearings and brackets etc.

[RATTLER]

Lucky it didn't go flying around the engine bay Scotty and take out a fuel line or something.
I had the shaft that connects the top pulley that drives the blower snap on mine and that made a fair mess.
Maybe look at an electric power steering pump - that's what I've down with my GTO.
The way I see it is that the less gear your running off that serpentine belt the less that can go wrong especially with high HP applications.
Along with the Meziere 55 GPH electric water pump the only item that now runs off the belt is the alternator.
It's a big ask of the belt to drive the blower and all the accessories and sure you can go down the path of making everything stronger and heavier but at some stage this must impact on the longevity of the belts,bearings and brackets etc.


Luckily it stayed put and thank god for my Maziere water pump that doesnt run off the belt, I was able to return to the pit garages.

Thanks for that matey! I'll look into it! Cheers :)

[RATTLER]

HERE'S AN UPDATE!

I really contemplated whether or not to tell you guys what happened, but too many times you only hear the good "thank you" stories! Well, this is not!

I'm not bloody happy HARROP!! :vpo:

You've decided NOT to cover this $385 part under warranty as the drive loads for a twin screw compressor are approximately 10 times that of your Eaton roots type superchargers??!!

You should say that these types of pulleys AREN'T for high performance cars then!! Not everyone runs your "Eaton roots" type of blowers but choose to run your parts because they are "high performance" and you back your products!

What happened this time? There is no evidence that anything else caused this to disintegrate the way it did and she hadn't even done 500km!! If you're only going to cover "your" parts with "your" blowers, you need to let "your" customers know this before they purchase anything!!!

I will be sending the broken pulley down to you so that way you can check it for any sort of fatigue. I understand that I'm the 1st person to run this pulley system with the 3.3ltr Whipple blower and is obviously not strong enough, but I shouldn't have to pay for a second one!

It's not about the $385, it's about Harrop guaranteeing their own parts and products!! If this happened on the way to Adelaide or a long trip somewhere with the family in the car, this b!tch would be alot worse!

Customer satisfaction guaranteed??? I'm sorry, but NOT THIS TIME! :vpo:

Am hoping your Ultimate Brake Package stands up better, as I pick it up tomorrow and will be fitting over the weekend.

Maybe once the Toyoto Orion deal is finished you guys might focus back on to the people who got you to where you are today!

I will now take my bat 'n ball and go home! I've said what I wanted to! My b!tch is finished!! :banghead:

Scotty

[seedyrom]

not good at all!!


Glad to hear you are alright.

It is a shame that harrop haven't supported you in this instance.
It could have been a lot worse.
I wonder if a coroners report might have helped them admit fault.

[Delco]

10 times the harrop load on a whipple ???

My starr 8 rib setup has done 40 000kms without a issue to date on both the 2.4L and the 3.3L

[RATTLER]

10 times the harrop load on a whipple ???

My starr 8 rib setup has done 40 000kms without a issue to date on both the 2.4L and the 3.3L

Dan, that's what Harrop are saying, yes. 40,000kms without an issue.... mine only did 460kms! Now you know why I'm understandably p!ssed off

[Delco]

I would be pissed as well , if there was as much load as they are saying the pump would be shagged , the load on the pulley is dictated by the tensioner , more a case of poor quality I would suspect.

Too many lightening holes and the shape is wrong.

[VYTonne]

Dan, that's what Harrop are saying, yes. 40,000kms without an issue.... mine only did 460kms! Now you know why I'm understandably p!ssed off

Definitely not what you wanna hear after laying out good $$$ for quality gear huh..
Hope you get it sorted soon.

Cheers
VYT

[B-REX]

the load on the pulley is dictated by the tensioner , more a case of poor quality I would suspect.

Too many lightening holes and the shape is wrong.

Delco,
The load on the pulley is dictated by belt tension which in this case is the load created by the blower AND the tensioner.

It's possibly more a case of the design being adequate for the Harrop 122 blower but not capable of much more.

[mmciau]

From those images, there is just so many auxiliaries between the Crankshaft Drive and the Blower - Water pump, idler, Alternator, Steering pump.

It is a significant loading when the blower induces drag through all those directional changes and that steering pump pulley looks very thin wall - it is maybe "harmonics" that made it fail more so than the 'directional" load!

Can't see an easy fix other than "beefing" up the pulleys

mike

[Jezza@HDTCQ]

Delco,
The load on the pulley is dictated by belt tension which in this case is the load created by the blower AND the tensioner.

It's possibly more a case of the design being adequate for the Harrop 122 blower but not capable of much more.

I agree. The blower pully and blower compression load, is placing load on the whole belt system and pulleys. For example, jam one pulley from turning and see how much load you apply on each pulley.

[RATTLER]

Problem has been sorted guys! A big thank you must go to Ron Harrop and Ken Nunn for resolving and defusing the situation. Hopefully this new pulley will last a little longer and I will have many 1000's of kms of hastle free power steering :bow:

[seedyrom]

great to hear.

The power of this site ?

[Ken]

great to hear.
The power of this site ?

No ...
The power of ensuring the all facts are known. Scotty was not aware of a variety of facts, including that:
- We did not know it was being fitted to a Whipple 3300 installation as it was supplied at the same time as a Harrop HH122 kit.
- APS have many other well-proven 3300 installs running our 8PK kit which have run very successfully over a long period. In fact, APS have done a great job of durability-testing some of these products.
- Upon receipt of the failed pulley and verification that the failure was due to design/materials/workmanship, we will (as previously stated) refund the cost of the replacement pulley. I suspect the only real mis-understanding was that we need the original back before sending a refund.

I have no problem if Scotty wishes to post the email we sent him, as we value all constructive criticism that leads to product, process or service improvements.

[RATTLER]

As I have Ken's permission to post Ron Harrops letter to me, I now present his explanation:


Scotty …

Based on the information you provided in the LS1 forum (posting copy below), it is obvious that you feel we (Harrop) have not done or communicated as well as we could. Since your email to me (18th March), I have been gathering the relevant information regarding this issue.

I believe it is necessary to document a few of the facts as I understand it:

- The 8PK kit was supplied to a third party at the same time as a HH122 kit was supplied. It was a realistic assumption on our part that the 8PK kit would be used on the HH122 supplied.

- We have many of these 8PK kits in operation and not heard of any other pulley failures. Some installations are on “extreme” vehicles that are used purely for aggressive racing. The HTV2300 with 8PK kit on our 500kw+ GTO test mule has done over 50,000 km.

- We did not have any indication it would be used on a 3.3 Whipple. Having stated that, although we would have been cautious I doubt we would have anticipated the failure you experienced.

- The load on the pulleys is significantly more with a twin-screw than our Eaton/Roots-based product. Twin-screws are compressors and do not have any method of internal bypass or load-reduction, so the strain is constantly on the drive (unlike a Roots-based unit that bypasses and takes less than 0.3kw to drive when cruising). Added to the constant load is the increased size/mass of the 3.3, and the massive increase from moment of inertia loading. Being one of only two companies in the world who manufacture both twin-screw and Roots-based superchargers, we have a comprehensive understanding of these dynamics.

- You comment that the failure on a long trip would have been worse, which we agree. Although this does not excuse the failure, I suggest it would be unlikely that you could drive on the road in the same manner you can drive on a race track so the failure would be significantly less likely.

- We value the criticism and take it seriously, because without feedback we may get complacent and arrogant which can lead to stagnation. It is unfortunate that you chose such a public forum to vent your frustration without first allowing us the opportunity to address your concerns directly.

- We replaced your broken pulley immediately with a custom-made steel version.

- As you have subsequently discussed with our Customer Service Manager and in line with typical business policies, we do not send replacement product free-of-charge without having the suspect product returned first. Imagine the mayhem Holden would experience if they sent replacement warranty components to vehicle owners without a dealer first determining the validity of the issue, or the likelihood of Sony sending a replacement television because an owner claimed the purchased unit was faulty. We look forward to receiving the failed unit.

- The value of the failed product does not determine the process, as the proven procedures of our ISO Quality system determine the method and actions. If we deviate and make exceptions, we run the risk of anarchy.

- Upon receipt of the failed pulley and confirmation that the design, workmanship or materials are at fault, we will certainly issue a credit or refund for the replacement unit.

We are grateful that you have taken the time to post the favourable comments about our Ultimate brake package. We trust that these will serve you well and be hassle free, however please feel free to contact us if you have concerns.

I would be happy to discuss this in more detail if you wish to contact me by phone on 03.9474-0900.

Best regards

Ron Harrop

[macca33]

Well, all I'll say there is that HARROP are clearly stand-up people and back their gear 100%.

Kudos to Ron and Ken.

Cheers,

Macca

[Mungrel]

Good to see its resolved one way or another.

[izaks]

""The load on the pulleys is significantly more with a twin-screw than our Eaton/Roots-based product. Twin-screws are compressors and do not have any method of internal bypass or load-reduction, so the strain is constantly on the drive (unlike a Roots-based unit that bypasses and takes less than 0.3kw to drive when cruising)""

Absolutely not true ! The STARR/Whipple kit as displayed, does have an internal by pass system so that there is very little load on the belt when not in boost. The air is able to bypass the rotors completly via the bypass valve.

[Ken]

""The load on the pulleys is significantly more with a twin-screw than our Eaton/Roots-based product. Twin-screws are compressors and do not have any method of internal bypass or load-reduction, so the strain is constantly on the drive (unlike a Roots-based unit that bypasses and takes less than 0.3kw to drive when cruising)""

Absolutely not true ! The STARR/Whipple kit as displayed, does have an internal by pass system so that there is very little load on the belt when not in boost. The air is able to bypass the rotors completly via the bypass valve.

Sorry Izaks ... but you are mistaken.
By definition, a twin-screw is always compressing within the body of the housing. Internal bypassing is not possible within the screws of a twinscrew or it would compress. The basis of a twinscrew compressor dictates that it will compress the air before it reaches the supercharger outlet port, not in the manifold, whereas a Roots blower has no internal compression - it is all done in the manifold.

The valve within the Starr kit relieves pressure from within the manifold back to the low-pressure area, but does little to reduce the primary load required to turn the rotors.

[dt_edition]

Hi! Ken
Just a quick question about the 8PK pulley kit.

I purchased one of the HTV2300 SC and everything is running beautifuly, still only running around 9.5psi (Healthy 420rwkw)as I am waiting to do the bottom end before we go any harder.

I am still trying to find a 8Pk belt for the 8PK pulley kit. It is on the ever problematic VZ Toll clubsport :). I have a 6PK 2260 belt but I am now doing alot of WOT logging as I learn the skill of tuning and I get belt slipage. So I would love to finsh off the job. I understand VCM are trying to get hold of one but no luck yet. It has been over 2 months.

Wondering if you guys have any lying around? :bow:

[Ken]

Hi! Ken
Just a quick question about the 8PK pulley kit.
I purchased one of the HTV2300 SC and everything is running beautifuly, still only running around 9.5psi (Healthy 420rwkw)as I am waiting to do the bottom end before we go any harder.
I am still trying to find a 8Pk belt for the 8PK pulley kit. It is on the ever problematic VZ Toll clubsport :). I have a 6PK 2260 belt but I am now doing alot of WOT logging as I learn the skill of tuning and I get belt slipage. So I would love to finsh off the job. I understand VCM are trying to get hold of one but no luck yet. It has been over 2 months.
Wondering if you guys have any lying around? :bow:

Hmmm ...
The simple answer is "no" ... but I am curious on why 2260?
Our 8PK kit was designed for and is supplied with a 8PK2240, so to need a 2260 there must be something unique about your configuration.
Doing a little look through our Gates-Australia listing, there is a 8PK2270 listed (but no stock), and the next size down is an 8PK 2240 (our standard). Please send me an email via ken@harrop.com.au with the size of each pulley, including the balancer, idler and tensioner, and I am confident that we can find or create a solution. If you can also send me a date and place of install, we can determine from our records that everthing matches.
Thanks ...

[dt_edition]

e-mail sent with info.

Thanks for the quick reply

[dt_edition]

Hi Ken,

Just wondering how things are going with the 2260 8PK belt?

Would you like me to send another e-mail? or do you have a electric power steering solution?

Cheers