Conversation with engineer re FI

[Uncle Tone]

Well....what a spew. :bawl:

I called an automotive engineer in Melbourne today, to see if I could tee him up to pass my car once its fitted with FI. They do emissions testing as well ($1500 a go!!) and can handle the whole shebang from start to finish.

Told him I'd have the paperwork he needs, and the tune would be emissions compliant, exhaust would be standard, and everything would be fitted as per the manufacturer of the kit instructs. I asked him if that was the case, could he sign off on the car?

Nup! :vpo:

When asked why not, it turns out that he would need a lot more than just emissions compliance. Forgetting about how good the install job was for a sec, he needs confirmation from Tremec that the gearbox is good for the torque!! Same is needed from the manufacturer of the tailshaft, diff, rear axles, CV joints, rear wheel hubs, etc etc etc!!!! :cussing:

Like he says: "If you were trying to pass a B-double on a 2 lane road, pull out and nail it in 3rd, nearly past the truck and then a driveshaft lets go and you have a car bearing down on you coming the opposite way, they will come knocking on my door after the crash and ask why I signed off on your mods."

Bit far-fetched, but I suppose it could happen. He said that he would not sign off on what I wanted to do.

I don't know where to go from here. Does this sound right? How do other people get their cars passed by engineers?

[michaels1v8]

Try another engineer?:)

I guess what he is saying is correct and can understand his reasoning.

If you dont really mind on those issues and willing to take the risk on the drive shaft, gear box and what not then find an engineer who is also willing to overlook it.

Im sure one exist

[LS1TOY]

How the bloody hell do holden get a car on the road then. im sure if some one tried they could snap a standard axle on a stocker. try someone else, possibly he might not want to bother with all the work.
Jake,

[Evman]

Just find the right engineer :)


We (as in my ma's ex partner and I) got our (competition burnout car) 302 Windsor converted Cortina fully licenced with tyres that rubbed on the guards over bumps, shaker scoop and stage 3 shift kitted C4 and very loud exhaust. It's not what you know, it's who you know :)

[CarlFST60L]

How the bloody hell do holden get a car on the road then.

They would have a multi million dollar standards approval program.

[spank]

might sound like a stupid question, but why do you want an engineers certificate. im assuming you are fitting FI to commodore of some sort, just bolt on, tune and enjoy:driving::burnout:

[Avalanche]

Am i right in saying that all along Tuna has only said that the kit is emission compliant?? I am sure he is not going to make sure your whole car is compliant, too many variables. I suppose it is down to an engineer to sign off that it is installed correctly & that it would therefore pass emissions. The other stuff, who knows.Good luck Tone

[GETUTED]

Well....what a spew. :bawl:

I called an automotive engineer in Melbourne today, to see if I could tee him up to pass my car once its fitted with FI. They do emissions testing as well ($1500 a go!!) and can handle the whole shebang from start to finish.

Told him I'd have the paperwork he needs, and the tune would be emissions compliant, exhaust would be standard, and everything would be fitted as per the manufacturer of the kit instructs. I asked him if that was the case, could he sign off on the car?

Nup! :vpo:

When asked why not, it turns out that he would need a lot more than just emissions compliance. Forgetting about how good the install job was for a sec, he needs confirmation from Tremec that the gearbox is good for the torque!! Same is needed from the manufacturer of the tailshaft, diff, rear axles, CV joints, rear wheel hubs, etc etc etc!!!! :cussing:

Like he says: "If you were trying to pass a B-double on a 2 lane road, pull out and nail it in 3rd, nearly past the truck and then a driveshaft lets go and you have a car bearing down on you coming the opposite way, they will come knocking on my door after the crash and ask why I signed off on your mods."

Bit far-fetched, but I suppose it could happen. He said that he would not sign off on what I wanted to do.

I don't know where to go from here. Does this sound right? How do other people get their cars passed by engineers?

That is just plain stupid. Go to someone sensible and stay away from Whatif Engineering....

[r8ls1]

You can find an engineer who will sign it off. does anybody have experience of getting into a bad crash with a modded car with engineers report. could the insurance company still find a way out of paying if the vehicle is non std.

[VooDoo]

Tone i have your answer...

Move to QLD, fit your kit, pay your $148 for engineering and have the blue plate attached.

No more problems.

[zorro]

Can't Tuna point you in the direction of the right engineer?

[LooneyR8]

I think you are being led up the garden path in regards to this Tone.

After my father in-law finished his 71 Mustang, which included a full conversion and powerplant change, the engineer only wanted to know that the welds were good and the car was in mechanically good condition.

He didnt care if the gearbox or tailshaft would hold as that wasnt modified. He should only be interested in the actual mod itself.

Go to VicRoads and get there list of approved engineers and go through them and see what happens.

If not....screw it all in and have fun....:)

[C4B]

When asked why not, it turns out that he would need a lot more than just emissions compliance. Forgetting about how good the install job was for a sec, he needs confirmation from Tremec that the gearbox is good for the torque!! Same is needed from the manufacturer of the tailshaft, diff, rear axles, CV joints, rear wheel hubs, etc etc etc!!!! :cussing:


Based on what you've said it sounds like you're pretty much at a dead end. I can't imagine all these components (diff, CV's etc.) being documented to cope with the torque of your proposed setup, which means you'll never get it certified by this engineer.

Of course you could go to another engineer and get a certificate, but in the back of your mind you'll always be wondering whether if you had an accident, it would come back to haunt you.....

[Uncle Tone]

That is just plain stupid. Go to someone sensible and stay away from Whatif Engineering....

"Whatif" engineering did emissions compliance work for Holden on the LS1 originally. I hardly think that they would be giving me a bum steer.


I think you are being led up the garden path in regards to this Tone.

After my father in-law finished his 71 Mustang, which included a full conversion and powerplant change, the engineer only wanted to know that the welds were good and the car was in mechanically good condition.

He didnt care if the gearbox or tailshaft would hold as that wasnt modified. He should only be interested in the actual mod itself.

Go to VicRoads and get there list of approved engineers and go through them and see what happens.

If not....screw it all in and have fun....:)

I hope you are right.

I put the engineers phone number into Google and it came up with a PDF of about 50 different engineers names in Melbourne. I'll print it out and start ringing round I suppose.

I'm not giving up until EVERYBODY tells me to get stuffed! :lol:

I should put the list up here actually, for everyones reference.


Based on what you've said it sounds like you're pretty much at a dead end. I can't imagine all these components (diff, CV's etc.) being documented to cope with the torque of your proposed setup, which means you'll never get it certified by this engineer.

Of course you could go to another engineer and get a certificate, but in the back of your mind you'll always be wondering whether if you had an accident, it would come back to haunt you.....


Thats exactly what I was thinking :bawl:

Where does it end? Bolts need a certificate too? Rear suspension bushes?

[Curtis-R]

So UT, where does this leave you.. all too hard basket? How do WP sell their kits and address these issues?

[vyssbeast]

If it is passed by another engineer, doesnt mean its illegal, just werent so strict about it.

i mean for insurance to be valid, and to have a non-defectable car, its emmision compliance that you require. Thats what your insurance company will want

Not if some small insignificant part could handle the power...

I think that guy was too tightly screwed, make a few phonecalls.. im sure you'll find someone that'll help

[Uncle Tone]

So UT, where does this leave you.. all too hard basket? How do WP sell their kits and address these issues?

Not too hard just yet. I'll see how I go.


If it is passed by another engineer, doesnt mean its illegal, just werent so strict about it.

i mean for insurance to be valid, and to have a non-defectable car, its emmision compliance that you require. Thats what your insurance company will want

Not if some small insignificant part could handle the power...

I think that guy was too tightly screwed, make a few phonecalls.. im sure you'll find someone that'll help

Hehe....Shannons don't care about emissions, but they do want the install given the green light by an engineer.

If that small insignificant part could let go and cause a stack, then they want to know about it. The install and everything else about the car has to be sound, according to them.

[EXCESSV]

u seem to be hitting a massive brick wall UT especially since u wanna get it right the first time which i understand totally

which FI did u choose?
and how did WP get around this? or is that part of the premium u pay for there install that it comes out the workshop all signed sealed and approved?


i mean for insurance to be valid, and to have a non-defectable car, its emmision compliance that you require. Thats what your insurance company will wantinsurance company couldnt care less if the car is hurting the ozone layer or not with emmisions its the ADR etc that are concerned with emmisions amongst other things

insurance company is worried about how components will effect a car in an accident and if they will contribute to the cause of an accident.
does a front mount affect crumple zone hence affecting safety?
does the extra power gonna cause things to break to contribute to loss of control over car and cause an accident?
will any modification become a dangerous object to another person or car when involved in an accident?
etc
etc
etc...
these amongst many other things is what the insurance company is worried about

[HSV,_I_GOT_ONE]

I wouldn't have thought getting the different parts torque load ratings would be that hard. If anything a quick call to holden asking for the information of parts used in the driveline would not be that hard. Might be a pain in the arse but every part would have been torque and load tested by the manufacturer. If holden can't help they should be able to put you onto the suppliers.
But if anything I would dare say the "safe" torque load would probably be a lot less than what has been proven by other modified cars.

[bermudablue]

Try another engineer?:)

Thats about it.

[wp01]

and how did WP get around this? or is that part of the premium u pay for there install that it comes out the workshop all signed sealed and approved?

WP 'got around this' by supplying the info required by the engineer.

Any engineer is only making a 'judgement' as to what he believes will be an acceptable standard (engineering wise) based on any testing or evidence presented to him to allow the completeion of a report that is kept on record by Vic Roads (in Victoria).

UT,the report that we have had done covers our black R8 that you test drove with the supercharger,injectors,calibration,exhaust,cold air and our 6 piston brake package.
And that same report including the ADR 79/01 compliance can be duplicated for your GTS as it is identical to the R8 powertrain wise.And as far as the engineer is concerned is the 'same' vehicle.

The Maloo is starting it's program now for the 79/01 compliance with higher boost and power output.

AL

[Uncle Tone]

u seem to be hitting a massive brick wall UT especially since u wanna get it right the first time which i understand totally

which FI did u choose?
and how did WP get around this? or is that part of the premium u pay for there install that it comes out the workshop all signed sealed and approved?

insurance company couldnt care less if the car is hurting the ozone layer or not with emmisions its the ADR etc that are concerned with emmisions amongst other things

insurance company is worried about how components will effect a car in an accident and if they will contribute to the cause of an accident.
does a front mount affect crumple zone hence affecting safety?
does the extra power gonna cause things to break to contribute to loss of control over car and cause an accident?
will any modification become a dangerous object to another person or car when involved in an accident?
etc
etc
etc...
these amongst many other things is what the insurance company is worried about

Spot on Deano, thats exactly what the insurance company said to me (although front mounts were not a concern, but would be for the crash testing I guess)

Haven't made any choice yet. Still waiting for that elusive turbo drive! :lol:



WP 'got around this' by supplying the info required by the engineer.

Any engineer is only making a 'judgement' as to what he believes will be an acceptable standard (engineering wise) based on any testing or evidence presented to him to allow the completeion of a report that is kept on record by Vic Roads (in Victoria).

UT,the report that we have had done covers our black R8 that you test drove with the supercharger,injectors,calibration,exhaust,cold air and our 6 piston brake package.
And that same report including the ADR 79/01 compliance can be duplicated for your GTS as it is identical to the R8 powertrain wise.And as far as the engineer is concerned is the 'same' vehicle.

The Maloo is starting it's program now for the 79/01 compliance with higher boost and power output.

AL

So, after you get the 122 package through, you would be able to whack a blower on my car and get it signed off with no additional tests or assessment to my car needed?

[wp01]

So, after you get the 122 package through, you would be able to whack a blower on my car and get it signed off with no additional tests or assessment to my car needed?[/QUOTE]

Yes, as long as the parts and install mirror the compliant package.

AL

[EXCESSV]

and how did WP get around this? or is that part of the premium u pay for there install that it comes out the workshop all signed sealed and approved?

WP 'got around this' by supplying the info required by the engineer.

Any engineer is only making a 'judgement' as to what he believes will be an acceptable standard (engineering wise) based on any testing or evidence presented to him to allow the completeion of a report that is kept on record by Vic Roads (in Victoria).

UT,the report that we have had done covers our black R8 that you test drove with the supercharger,injectors,calibration,exhaust,cold air and our 6 piston brake package.
And that same report including the ADR 79/01 compliance can be duplicated for your GTS as it is identical to the R8 powertrain wise.And as far as the engineer is concerned is the 'same' vehicle.

The Maloo is starting it's program now for the 79/01 compliance with higher boost and power output.

ALexaclty what i thought and the comment i meant wasnt supposed to be taken in a negative manner
sorry if u took it that way

what i was trying to say is thats why u pay slightly more for the WP kit as u drive in with stock car and drive out with fully complianced car with no need for the owner to take it to engineer etc

[wp01]

exaclty what i thought and the comment i meant wasnt supposed to be taken in a negative manner
sorry if u took it that way

what i was trying to say is thats why u pay slightly more for the WP kit as u drive in with stock car and drive out with fully complianced car with no need for the owner to take it to engineer etc

No problem mate,not taken in a negative manner..

Not all installs can be compliant as easy as that,, even if UT's car was an auto it would need another compliance test and report done as it is another variant ..

AL

[bermudablue]

All this arguing and i bet my balls
he never does it.

[seldo]

If it is passed by another engineer, doesnt mean its illegal, just werent so strict about it.

i mean for insurance to be valid, and to have a non-defectable car, its emmision compliance that you require. Thats what your insurance company will want

Not if some small insignificant part could handle the power...

I think that guy was too tightly screwed, make a few phonecalls.. im sure you'll find someone that'll helpI gave UT an engineer who may be able to help........

[RED R8]

I didn't know FI stood for Farkin Indecisive get on with it Tone before something else hits the market and sidetracks you for another 5 years...

[emg]

All this arguing and i bet my balls
he never does it.


Agree, he would have done it by now. It's like a 6L V8 isn't enough power to drive on public roads, you have to go turbo it? If you want a turbo with no compliance issues, buy a car with a factory fitted turbo.

[Martin_D]

Sounds like your engineer might have been suffering 'first week on the job' syndrome Tone :lol:

Tell him you have a product with 'Type Approval' and all the decisions are already made for him :cool:

[UTE FORCE]

I didn't know FI stood for Farkin Indecisive get on with it Tone before something else hits the market and sidetracks you for another 5 years...

Gold...:rofl:...you are spot on but as much as Tone is an insuferable timewaster,i still look forward to catching up with him at the LS1 Nats:headbang:

[Wonky]

Gold...:rofl:...you are spot on but as much as Tone is an insuferable timewaster,i still look forward to catching up with him at the LS1 Nats:headbang:
Those of us who know UT appreciate that he is just meticulous in tying down details beforehand, instead of doing as many on here have done and do something then later come to :doh: regret it for any one of a hundred different reasons.

[Ahyeah]

Those of us who know UT appreciate that he is just meticulous in tying down details beforehand, instead of doing as many on here have done and do something then later come to :doh: regret it for any one of a hundred different reasons.

I dont know him personally, but yeah this is right.:)

Please got to another engineer, even tuna reckons he was a tight arse!!:rofl:

Failing that, why dont u actually get all the info they need, how hard could it possibly be? a few phone calls or emails would be a lot easier than keeping up with 59 000 threads about emission compliant (and now fully compliant) turbo'ed V8 commodores:confused:???

[pagey]

Jesus Christ.. what a load of horse shit.. going by this clown.. if you replaced your filter with a better flowing one and picked up 2 rwkw you would need to recertify the car to ensure it wont blow a diff or trans..

bottome line - the guy just didn't want to be involved in the job - and was too soft to just come out and say so.

[team illucid]

bottome line - the guy just didn't want to be involved in the job - and was too soft to just come out and say so.

Maybe the Engineer is on this forum - and didn't want a 12 page waffle about this .. or that .. or them etc et al.

[Uncle Tone]

Gold...:rofl:...you are spot on but as much as Tone is an insuferable timewaster,i still look forward to catching up with him at the LS1 Nats:headbang:

Awww.....come here mate :love2:

[EXCESSV]

Those of us who know UT appreciate that he is just meticulous in tying down details beforehand, instead of doing as many on here have done and do something then later come to :doh: regret it for any one of a hundred different reasons.agree with u totally wonky...
met UT quite a few times and hung out with him amongst the other VIC boys too and i totally understand where he is coming from

yeah it seems over the top to most of us...but lets just say UT is different
he is special....and i mean that in the nicest way mate

[Ghosn]

met UT quite a few times and hung out with him...but lets just say UT is different...he is special....

:rofl: :rofl:

[Uncle Tone]

Yeah yeah keep the fun coming you blokes :Nutkick:

Pagey, you may be right.....although he was the same bloke I spoke to about the Rolls Royce project, and he was eager to be involved in that one....
so I dunno.... :confused:

Anyway....heres the list of engineers for everyones reference:

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/801DA462-04DD-4600-B064-79E5E1370C85/0/VASSList5Feb2008.pdf

Heaps to choose from, but I'll be ringing the one Seldo recommended first. Cheers mate :D

[MattJ]

Archie Robertson - 9729 9776

He is Bayswater and is a resonable chap.

[ztunegtr]

yeah it can be really expensive, call around

[Uncle Tone]

Well....this is a bit more encouraging! :yahoo:

The engineer I spoke to today said that its not impossible, and he may be able to build a case for drivetrain reliability if needed.

Problem is, he would rather me show him ALL relevant documentation before I bought the kit. He would hate for me to get the kit, have it fitted, and then not have all the relevant docs to enable him to sign off on the install......which is fair enough too, I wouldn't like to say to a client that you've spent all this money and you can't have it signed off.....better to get it all in writing and locked down before purchasing anything. He has a very good point here. :teach:


So whatever kit I buy, I'll need to get all the supporting documents up front, get them scrutinized, and make the engineer happy that its worth moving forward with the project BEFORE I buy and install the kit.

Then, it would seem that its just a simple procedure of checking the install has been done to manufacturers specs and is mechanically sound, and signing it off! :D

[MNR-0]

So Tone,

You don't want just emissions compliance, you want full engineering compliance?

Methinks you may be in for more than just an FI upgrade...

May I ask what for? Is it a personal thing?

[Uncle Tone]

So Tone,

You don't want just emissions compliance, you want full engineering compliance?

Methinks you may be in for more than just an FI upgrade...

May I ask what for? Is it a personal thing?

Full engineering sign-off is required for insurance. Shannons will insure me without emissions compliance, but the install must be signed off by an engineer otherwise the car is unroadworthy.

I want emissions compliance as well so if I get pulled over I can prove that the kit is perfectly legal on the car.

I don't want to spend all that money and hide the fact that I have a FI kit. I want to be able to flaunt it! :diddy:

[Martin_D]

Shannons will insure me without emissions compliance, but the install must be signed off by an engineer otherwise the car is unroadworthy.

And without emissions compliance you cant get signed off by an engineer....lets go full circle again :lol:

[Uncle Tone]

And without emissions compliance you cant get signed off by an engineer....lets go full circle again :lol:


Hehe...yep, thats true! :lol:

That was discussed also :D

[Uncle Tone]

Just to update, I contacted Vic Roads today, asked them if I supplied the emissions compliance form and engineers report what else would they need.....and they said thats all! Maybe might have to show my license and they might want to check the rego sticker on the car....but thats all. They update it on the database, and don't fit a mod plate. They recommend keeping the engineers report in the glovebox in case I'm pulled over.

So basically not hard at all. Hardest bit is getting the engineer to sign it off.

[TYREFRIAR]

Archie Robertson - 9729 9776

He is Bayswater and is a resonable chap.

Second that,

and if he says it cant be done, I would go along with him, but I doubt this is impossible compared to some other engineered projects that we have been involved with, some going to Archie.

He is well connected with the inner workings of Vic Roads compliance, rules, regs etc.