Lpg Liquid Injection

[andlis]

You may be hearing some fuelline hammer, if the installer has attached your fuel line to the firewall.
Even when on gas, your car still starts and runs on petrol until the purge time has elasped and then it switches.

Thanks Ratter,

you could be right, it is a strange noise not so much a knocking, its very hard to explain but i will keep everyone informed when i speak to kurt or a mechanic.

Andrew

[pk2k78]

Hi guys,

I went through my first full tank of LPG on liquid (49.3 litres). At least 90% of driving were freeway kms. With this in mind I would normally average 8.5 l/per 100Kms 9 at most (remember its a V6 Alloytec).

I got 349kms out of a full tank.... I drained it till it flicked back to petrol. This equates to 14.1 l/per 100 kms or almost 60% higher consumption than petrol, a little disappointing to say the least. I have done a bit of towing on the current tank and I'll be lucky to get 300kms!

I am hoping that something is really wrong and that it will be fixed when I take it back for its check-up. Fingers crossed!

Mat

[mrtockley]

Hi guys,

I went through my first full tank of LPG on liquid (49.3 litres). At least 90% of driving were freeway kms. With this in mind I would normally average 8.5 l/per 100Kms 9 at most (remember its a V6 Alloytec).

I got 349kms out of a full tank.... I drained it till it flicked back to petrol. This equates to 14.1 l/per 100 kms or almost 60% higher consumption than petrol, a little disappointing to say the least. I have done a bit of towing on the current tank and I'll be lucky to get 300kms!

I am hoping that something is really wrong and that it will be fixed when I take it back for its check-up. Fingers crossed!

Mat

Ouch! I don't know what's worse, that they might be sending cars out that aren't properly set up or that it is set up and the economy isn't that good..

If you're getting that out of a V6, what will the 8's be like ?

Tock.

[DaveHAT]

Ouch! I don't know what's worse, that they might be sending cars out that aren't properly set up or that it is set up and the economy isn't that good..

If you're getting that out of a V6, what will the 8's be like ?

Tock.

To give you some idea (& admittedly not a VE 6 or 8) my 5.7lt VY Berlina wagon is delivering 16.5lt/100km per tank with an "80 lt usable" tank fitted across the rear seat.

Range per tank varies from 450-500km depending on how I drive with the average speed being 55-60km/h.

Admittedly that's after having the OEM PCM remapped to "optimise" the LPG.

[pk2k78]

To give you some idea (& admittedly not a VE 6 or 8) my 5.7lt VY Berlina wagon is delivering 16.5lt/100km per tank with an "80 lt usable" tank fitted across the rear seat.

Range per tank varies from 450-500km depending on how I drive with the average speed being 55-60km/h.

Admittedly that's after having the OEM PCM remapped to "optimise" the LPG.

Do you have a liquid setup?

[DaveHAT]

Do you have a liquid setup?

Ah ... sorry missed the LIQUID word in the thread title.

Mine is vapour injection so disregard my comments ... sorry.

:slap:

[loudvtss]

Hi guys,

I went through my first full tank of LPG on liquid (49.3 litres). At least 90% of driving were freeway kms. With this in mind I would normally average 8.5 l/per 100Kms 9 at most (remember its a V6 Alloytec).

I got 349kms out of a full tank.... I drained it till it flicked back to petrol. This equates to 14.1 l/per 100 kms or almost 60% higher consumption than petrol, a little disappointing to say the least. I have done a bit of towing on the current tank and I'll be lucky to get 300kms!

I am hoping that something is really wrong and that it will be fixed when I take it back for its check-up. Fingers crossed!

Mat
Gees this doesn't sound too good. People having issue with installations and economy figures as those doesn't help...

[shep]

Automotive gas tanks have an AFL valve in the filler, no its not a footy, AFL is Automatic Fill Limiter and set to shut off at 80% full leaving 20% for liquid expantion due to temperature differences.

Is good aye.

[greencut]

Ive run 3 full tanks of liquid injection so far and results have varied. The first included a lot of 'spirited' driving and a fair bit of time on the dyno and was 20.3lt/100km. The next tank was a 50/50 mix of city/hway and returned 16.2. The last tank was purely around town avg speed 38km/h and returned 19.5lt/100km. This last tank was my normal driving pattern where I was getting around 17-18lt/100km on petrol, so I suppose claims of 10% more gas than petrol sound about right. (The car is a WL Statesman 6.0lt with edit and catback.) Performance is unbelievable though.

[255-LS1]

cheers for that greencut, can you go into more detail on performance? have you had it dynoed on gas and petrol yet? who did your conversion

cheers mate

[greencut]

The conversion was done by APS in Frankston and it was dynoed but I havent got a printout yet. It was roughly 240rwkw on gas and 230rwkw on petrol. Where there was a bit of a flat spot below 3000rpm the torque curve is now straight and the car pulls smoothly from get go until it gets a bit scary.

[nvous1]

My first tank was very disappointing to say the least. I ran the tank dry and only managed to squeeze in 64.2ltrs of gas at the pump, distance travelled was 458klms which equates to 14.01 ltrs/100. The computer told me I was returning 11.1 ltrs/100, so its way of the mark.
My normal driving style is between 11-12 ltrs/100 as 70% is hwy averaging around 60kmh.
Overall this is a 27% decrease in economy which is certainly not what was stated by the pro's, there is no way its under 10% as previously discussed on this forum.
The only other possibility is I have a gas leak, which I would be happy with at this stage

[mrtockley]

My first tank was very disappointing to say the least. I ran the tank dry and only managed to squeeze in 64.2ltrs of gas at the pump, distance travelled was 458klms which equates to 14.01 ltrs/100. The computer told me I was returning 11.1 ltrs/100, so its way of the mark.
My normal driving style is between 11-12 ltrs/100 as 70% is hwy averaging around 60kmh.
Overall this is a 27% decrease in economy which is certainly not what was stated by the pro's, there is no way its under 10% as previously discussed on this forum.
The only other possibility is I have a gas leak, which I would be happy with at this stage

That doesn't sound too good .. Seems like there are some pretty negative reports coming back so far ..

Can you tell us who did your conversion and how much it was?

Cheers,

Tock.

[nvous1]

Lakeside Automotive did the install. :goodjob: I was very pleased with the job they did and the service is great.
$5K

[Lunchbox]

I was just checking out the LPG Warehouse site for the liquid injection kit for a VX V8 wagon and in the fitting comments it says "Includes wheel holder and cover". Has anyone had this kit fitted on a wagon and have any pics of where the spare wheel ends up?? I'm seriously thinking about getting it fitted to save some dollars. And do all the workshops listed in the find an installer link fit liquid injection or do I have to ring around and find out myself which ones do??

Cheers, Lunchbox.

[mmciau]

My first tank was very disappointing to say the least. I ran the tank dry and only managed to squeeze in 64.2ltrs of gas at the pump, distance travelled was 458klms which equates to 14.01 ltrs/100. The computer told me I was returning 11.1 ltrs/100, so its way of the mark.
My normal driving style is between 11-12 ltrs/100 as 70% is hwy averaging around 60kmh.
Overall this is a 27% decrease in economy which is certainly not what was stated by the pro's, there is no way its under 10% as previously discussed on this forum.
The only other possibility is I have a gas leak, which I would be happy with at this stage

So are there more tuning considerations for this package to be undertaken so that better understanding of the injection system can be demonstrated

or

is this new system not as proficient as originally established/promoted?

Mike

[loudvtss]

I was feeling quite frustrated as I'm still waiting for my kit. It's been 3 months since I asked my installer to order the kit. Last information was my kit was going to arrive last week. I wasn't surprised when it didn't arrive. I would've been shocked if it did. I'm starting to lean towards getting a vapour injection system. One of the advantages of liquid over vapour was the better economy figures. That probably isn't a real factor as I've waited 3 months and still none the wiser of an ETA of the kit. The customer service isn't that great it's almost non existent. I called last week for an update on my kit and was told to speak to my installer.

[pk2k78]

My first tank was very disappointing to say the least. I ran the tank dry and only managed to squeeze in 64.2ltrs of gas at the pump, distance travelled was 458klms which equates to 14.01 ltrs/100. The computer told me I was returning 11.1 ltrs/100, so its way of the mark.
My normal driving style is between 11-12 ltrs/100 as 70% is hwy averaging around 60kmh.
Overall this is a 27% decrease in economy which is certainly not what was stated by the pro's, there is no way its under 10% as previously discussed on this forum.
The only other possibility is I have a gas leak, which I would be happy with at this stage

Agree with you my economy is even worse than yours. I'm reserving further comment until I have given them the opportunity to fix.

[Lunchbox]

I just got a quote for my wagon and was quoted $4650. Does that sound right?? I'm still waiting to hear back from some other installers.

[pk2k78]

Agree with you my economy is even worse than yours. I'm reserving further comment until I have given them the opportunity to fix.

I'm booked in this Friday morning to have my problems looked at including economy. Soon after that I will give my official uncensored review on liquid. Hopefully it will be good.....:vpo:

[Calais V 6.0]

This feedback does not sound too positive. Can we get some of the APS team on here to clear up the concerns? I am booked in for 1st December and I am starting to wonder if this is such a good idea.

It's been a while since development of these systems was completed and we aren't getting any detailed results posted on the forum by APS.

I'm not bagging them, I just want to be sure that the product I am spending big $$$$ on is worth it. My blind faith in this system can only take me so far. I need real hard facts from the guys that developing and promoting the product.

Ben

[HSV Listy]

I am not sure they are looking at this thread. The date of the original posters last visit was in April. I would say try a PM to one of the APS team that has been on the site lately. Maybe then they will see it and give some feedback

[Calais V 6.0]

I am not sure they are looking at this thread. The date of the original posters last visit was in April. I would say try a PM to one of the APS team that has been on the site lately. Maybe then they will see it and give some feedback

Good idea Listy. Done:)

[blownba]

I have had nothing but good feedback from my customers????
The 6.0L is going perfectly, apparantly economy has been fantastic, but I'll leave it up to the owner to post his own comments.

[loudvtss]

This feedback does not sound too positive. Can we get some of the APS team on here to clear up the concerns? I am booked in for 1st December and I am starting to wonder if this is such a good idea.

It's been a while since development of these systems was completed and we aren't getting any detailed results posted on the forum by APS.

I'm not bagging them, I just want to be sure that the product I am spending big $$$$ on is worth it. My blind faith in this system can only take me so far. I need real hard facts from the guys that developing and promoting the product.

Ben
That's my concern also. We're paying big dollars and the overwhelming feedback is negative. The APS team started posting in April and now when we need their feedback/assistance they're not on the system. This isn't the customer service you'd hope for.

[JohnW]

So the fuel economy may be not as good as first thought but power improvment is as expected.

So in summary to date.

For aound $3000 after rebate, you get a 10 t 20 kW power increase, at a minimum halve your fuel costs and as an extra bonus, significantly increase your re sale value.

Gee, sounds very negative to me.:rolleyes:

[pk2k78]

I believe "Dr Gas" is affiliated with APS. He posted a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not bagging APS either. I want to give them the opportunity to rectify my concerns. I paid extremely good money for this system and I expect to have my expectations met as per their claims ie within 5% of fuel consumption, power to equal or exceed that of petrol (reliability should be a given).

It really does have to perform better than vapor injection to justify my 5 month wait and extra cost.

[loudvtss]

I guess when the information being posted to sell the kit is:
The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. Once you hand over your hard earned you find out there's an overall 27% decrease in economy. They told us it's within 5% it's actually 27% decrease. Gees I missed that positive :confused:. Add to that the the 3 - 5 month wait to get this system. Silly me it's all good.

[andlis]

So the fuel economy may be not as good as first thought but power improvment is as expected.

So in summary to date.

For aound $3000 after rebate, you get a 10 t 20 kW power increase, at a minimum halve your fuel costs and as an extra bonus, significantly increase your re sale value.

Gee, sounds very negative to me.:rolleyes:

I agree with all your comments, as i have said earlier i cant think of too many performance upgrades that actually pay for themselves over time so regardless of gas useage i am still very happy with my install, However this system is marketed on the basis that it is much more fuel efficent then vapour injection, and as APS is a well renowned and professional team which would not falseify facts to sell a product, i beleive there is obviously a minor problem which needs to rectified and the only way to do this is to let APS know there are problems, in saying this i have notified my installer and he is going to contact the supplier, but he is confident it will be solved, as too am i

On a positive note i had my car dynoed (not tuned!! long story) and the results are pleasing
Torque on PULP 661.9N.M@95kph Torque on LPG 696.5N.M @95Kph
Power on PULP 195.4KW @132Kph Power on LPG 211.6KW @132Kph

So just as promised power and more importantly torque is increased just by using the lpg system this to me is worth it.
i will post again once i have heard back from my installer hopefully with some positive news.

[blownba]

Fair increase in performance I'd say!

Can I ask, is your 6.0L got the blue coloured LPG injectors or the light green????
The blues were fitted initially but the light greens are the better ones and I daresay that the calibrater that has been fitted is one size too big. Both really easy fixes and will be resolved easily. It's just your a little further away so things take a little longer.
rest assured buddy, you have some of Australia's best LPG minds on the job and you have gotta see the way their 6.oL's go.

[mmciau]

Perhaps blownba may use his good offices to alert APS that there is a degree of uncertainty and unresolved issues about L-LPG being discussed on LS1!



Mike

[Calais V 6.0]

So the fuel economy may be not as good as first thought but power improvment is as expected.

So in summary to date.

For aound $3000 after rebate, you get a 10 t 20 kW power increase, at a minimum halve your fuel costs and as an extra bonus, significantly increase your re sale value.

Gee, sounds very negative to me.:rolleyes:

It seems we have different views on this mate. Everyone’s different. But if I was happy with 20% less efficiency, I would be paying less money for vapor (power increase is not my priority).

I sent APS a PM last night. It would be good if they could reassure their customers with regard to efficiency etc.

[JohnW]

Calais V 6.0, dont get me wrong, i do see your point. But my point is lets just keep things in prospective. I would really like the 5% reduction in fuel economy to be what really happens but think of it logically, how can you get more power and use less fuel. Better efficiency you might say, sure there might be a few percent there.

But from what i understand, we get a cooler charge with liquid injection and hence can fit more into the cylinder to get a bigger bang = more power. But the AFR still need to be correct and if you fit more air in, we need more fuel to go with that.

I will be interested to see how the fuel economy pans out as more systems go on.

Even with the fuel economy currently being reported, people will still be lining up for the system. Lets face it, its a no-brainer.

[blownba]

Calais V 6.0, dont get me wrong, i do see your point. But my point is lets just keep things in prospective. I would really like the 5% reduction in fuel economy to be what really happens but think of it logically, how can you get more power and use less fuel. Better efficiency you might say, sure there might be a few percent there.

But from what i understand, we get a cooler charge with liquid injection and hence can fit more into the cylinder to get a bigger bang = more power. But the AFR still need to be correct and if you fit more air in, we need more fuel to go with that.

I will be interested to see how the fuel economy pans out as more systems go on.

Even with the fuel economy currently being reported, people will still be lining up for the system. Lets face it, its a no-brainer.

No it has always been marketed as a INCREASE of only 5% in economy over petrol. Never said to be better economy than petrol.
I had another customer come in for the first service and tell me till he was blue in the face that he is using the same amount of fuel as he did on petrol, but in reality he is probably using a touch more its just I fixed a couple of other things when I did the conversion so it does run better than what it was.
But certainly the 6.0L is capable of excellent fuel economy with this system.

[greencut]

I've just done my first freeway run on liquid lpg using the same bowser before and after a return run of around 50 km and returned 13.9ltr/100km. On petrol a similar run would have returned 10-11ltr/100km. Around town I'm getting about 18-20ltr/100km. These are almost identical figures to what I get in my E-gas ute which has the old mixer system. But the Statesman does have double the horsepower and is a bit heavier than the Ford and does a 0-100kmh in half the time. The car goes back on the weekend for the 1000km check/service so maybe a recalibration will improve the economy. Although at 54c a litre I cant really complain.

[T2000]

No it has always been marketed as a INCREASE of only 5% in economy over petrol. Never said to be better economy than petrol.
I had another customer come in for the first service and tell me till he was blue in the face that he is using the same amount of fuel as he did on petrol, but in reality he is probably using a touch more its just I fixed a couple of other things when I did the conversion so it does run better than what it was.
But certainly the 6.0L is capable of excellent fuel economy with this system.

Lots of interesting comments from those lucky enough to have had the system fitted and the installers. BUT apart from one dyno result (of which I am a little sceptical - 660NM of Torque from a stocker?) there is no definitive review or testing. All comments seem to be anecdotal or based on supposition and assumption.

I am hoping that my install (which has been delayed due to supply issues) will be eventually done in a week or so. I will then continue my habitual logging and tweaking of "my ride" - which has received a tune, OTR & DIY tinkering achieving 240.8rwkw on Gentechs' dyno on Saturday.

I will be posting Data logs, graphs and eventually another Gentech Dyno sheet.
After which I believe we will have our answer.

:toetap:

[German Statesman]

I'm VERY interested to hear APS' reply....when it comes

I'm getting bad vibes and a case of 'seen this before'....I'd love to be proven wrong

[JohnW]

So people with conversions already done, what injectors have you got installed? From blownba's comments, it would seem that the blue injectors are a key factor to achieving the claimed economy.

Blownba, can you comment on if gas makes more power when tuned on the lean side or rich side? Also can running on the lean side with gas have an effect on engine longevity?

[mrtockley]

I guess the only thing that people like myself are getting worried about is that we are only hearing stuff like "It's everything we expected plus more!" from the installers, but have only heard pretty much negative feedback from some of the customers who've had the installs done.

Yes LPG is obviously much cheaper, but if you are using 18 L/100 compared to say 13 L/100 on petrol, and combine that with a reduced capacity tank, then it's going to chop your economy figures up. Plus, it would give me the shits having to fill up twice a week - even if it is cheaper - cos I'm only getting 350 kays a tank ..

I know it's a new technology and there aren't heaps of people trained up to install these sytems, but it seems to me that more training or research needs to be done as these cars seem to be leaving the workshops without being fully sorted out. I'm a bit hesitant to shell out 3k when you have to keep returning to fix this and tweak that ..

Just my 2c though..

Tock.

[andlis]

Lots of interesting comments from those lucky enough to have had the system fitted and the installers. BUT apart from one dyno result (of which I am a little sceptical - 660NM of Torque from a stocker?) there is no definitive review or testing. All comments seem to be anecdotal or based on supposition and assumption.

I am hoping that my install (which has been delayed due to supply issues) will be eventually done in a week or so. I will then continue my habitual logging and tweaking of "my ride" - which has received a tune, OTR & DIY tinkering achieving 240.8rwkw on Gentechs' dyno on Saturday.

I will be posting Data logs, graphs and eventually another Gentech Dyno sheet.
After which I believe we will have our answer.

:toetap:

All my comments since having the install done have been fact, ie the car does have more torque, the car does have more power, the car is using about 30% more lpg then it would use on petrol this is not speculation it is fact

unlike yourself!! i am no expert but i do know that depending on the brand of dyno and operator, the torque and power numbers can vary substantially which is why i am not concerned about the actual numbers compared to others but it is a definitive FACT that on the same dyno and the same operator lpg acheived 30 odd N.M of torque over petrol.

[T2000]

All my comments since having the install done have been fact, ie the car does have more torque, the car does have more power, the car is using about 30% more lpg then it would use on petrol this is not speculation it is fact

unlike yourself!! i am no expert but i do know that depending on the brand of dyno and operator, the torque and power numbers can vary substantially which is why i am not concerned about the actual numbers compared to others but it is a definitive FACT that on the same dyno and the same operator lpg acheived 30 odd N.M of torque over petrol.

Mate I don't intend to start an argument about variations in dyno results... plenty of :vpo: wars on here because of Dyno sheets and comparisons between cars & dynos etc etc. I couldn't give a continental what somebody elses dyno number is... IMHO dynos only answer one thing; "have my modifications been affective". Obviously before & afters need to be run on the same dyno to reach that conclusion. Of course this is easily achieved with an LILPG/ PULP comparison because we can just press a button and do another run.

My comment is based on the reported Torque figure of 660NM on PULP... this is a big jump from the factory figure of 530NM, in fact an increase of 25%. Kinda makes me go :confused::confused::confused:. The power figures (before & after) however seems about right and seems to confirm what we have been told by the ALPGW guys.

You say that it is using 30% more fuel on LPG compared to PULP. Do you mind giving us a little more information?
IE...
Distance Travelled (from / to)
Average Speed
Vehicle Load
Litres used
Fuel used

Without all the facts... your statement remains... speculative at best.

For the record... I consider myself no expert. A compulsive tinkerer, with a few toys and a thirst for knowledge. I am always happy to contribute and discuss my ideas and results (good or bad)... and always try to provide evidence and facts. Definately not trying to beat up on anyone or start a pissing competition.

Congrats on your install... hopefully your issues get sorted (I am sure Kurt will look after you)


Chris

[andlis]

Fair increase in performance I'd say!

Can I ask, is your 6.0L got the blue coloured LPG injectors or the light green????
The blues were fitted initially but the light greens are the better ones and I daresay that the calibrater that has been fitted is one size too big. Both really easy fixes and will be resolved easily. It's just your a little further away so things take a little longer.
rest assured buddy, you have some of Australia's best LPG minds on the job and you have gotta see the way their 6.oL's go.

I can confirm that my injectors are the green ones,
and also my supplier has spoken to Ben Lee who seems to be the man when it comes to this topic, Bens reaction on the lpg useage was one of disbelief and was not very helpful, he virtually commented that i must be driving it really hard as he could not comprehend the excess use ( which i guess in a way is positive as it would be a fair assumption that there is a problem and the useage has the potential to be significantly lower) Any way i dont like being told i am mistaken so i went on a bit of a road trip to prove the excess usage in the most controlled environment i could achieve and this was
1. filled both lpg and PULP at the shell servo at sutton forest
2. drove on lpg to marulan and back to sutton forest in a controlled manner all in cruise control apart from the obvious start and stops, averaging 103km/h with ambient temperature of 16C and a total distance of 52.1km
3. drove from the exact same position at sutton forest to marulan and back on PULP averaging 104 km/h @ 16C with almost identical driving techniques
4. filled both PULP and LPG using the same 2 identical pumps at the shell servo at sutton forest
The less than flattering results are as follows
1. PULP useage - 5 litres (minus .08 litres which was the amount of petrol used to start on petrol while the gas was purging) so PULP usage for the trip was 4.92 litres which = 9.44l/100km = $15/100km
2. lpg useage - 6.69 litres = 12.84l/100km = $8.73/100km
Based on this the LPG usage was actually 36% higher.
obviously there is room for error but even with an unlikely error of 10% the usage is still unacceptable and my installer is going to talk to ben again so if i hear anymore i will keep this post updated,
also i have found out that the digital fuel useage display is virtually useless when running lpg.

[perryr]

Excellent info, and a far cry from what was touted. I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering if this is the best way to go. For me, the extra power isn't the main driver. The main thing was the lower lpg use compared to vapour injection.

I'll continue to watch the thread with interest. Keep it coming!

Cheers

[T2000]

I can confirm that my injectors are the green ones,
and also my supplier has spoken to Ben Lee who seems to be the man when it comes to this topic, Bens reaction on the lpg useage was one of disbelief and was not very helpful, he virtually commented that i must be driving it really hard as he could not comprehend the excess use ( which i guess in a way is positive as it would be a fair assumption that there is a problem and the useage has the potential to be significantly lower) Any way i dont like being told i am mistaken so i went on a bit of a road trip to prove the excess usage in the most controlled environment i could achieve and this was
1. filled both lpg and PULP at the shell servo at sutton forest
2. drove on lpg to marulan and back to sutton forest in a controlled manner all in cruise control apart from the obvious start and stops, averaging 103km/h with ambient temperature of 16C and a total distance of 52.1km
3. drove from the exact same position at sutton forest to marulan and back on PULP averaging 104 km/h @ 16C with almost identical driving techniques
4. filled both PULP and LPG using the same 2 identical pumps at the shell servo at sutton forest
The less than flattering results are as follows
1. PULP useage - 5 litres (minus .08 litres which was the amount of petrol used to start on petrol while the gas was purging) so PULP usage for the trip was 4.92 litres which = 9.44l/100km = $15/100km
2. lpg useage - 6.69 litres = 12.84l/100km = $8.73/100km
Based on this the LPG usage was actually 36% higher.
obviously there is room for error but even with an unlikely error of 10% the usage is still unacceptable and my installer is going to talk to ben again so if i hear anymore i will keep this post updated,
also i have found out that the digital fuel useage display is virtually useless when running lpg.

Excellent Post Andrew!:bow::bow::bow:

Thankyou for all the extra info.
This is a very thorough and apparantly accurate test of the LILPG system.

I will complete a similar test in the coming weeks and will post my results for comparison.

Your most recent post definately requires a response from someone at ALPGW!!!

:goodjob:

Chris

[Highway]

I am also on the list to get the liquid installed but with reports on the lack of economy that have been stated it makes you start to think maybe the tried and proven vapour systems are still the way to go at this time.

My decision to get the liquid system is based on the stated economy advertised by the company and if the system has more power on gas well that is just an added bonus.

I travel 40,000-50,000 kms per year so the economy is important.

Maybe ( and I hope ) all is sorted with the liquid and this is just some teething problems.

GOOD report Andrew by the way !!!

Any more economy reports from any one else who has the liquid stuff and has done a some kms ?

Mike

[DaveHAT]

Maybe the key to all this is getting the factory PCM tuned to optimise the liquid injection?

LPG whether in liquid form or vapour has different octane properties than ULP doesn't it?

Whilst the LPG PCM may well follow the factory PCM injector pulse signal ... the timing tables for ULP wouldn't be suited to LPG would they?

This would have to impact on economy if FUEL AND TIMING are not optimised towards LPG and thus adversely effect economy readings?

Honest question.

If people want to run LPG then the sensible thing to do would seem be to get the factory PCM timing and fuel tables optimised towards LPG and consider ULP as the "fall back" fuel?

Thinking out loud here ... I know that doing the above definitely helped in respect to my SVI install.

[T2000]

Maybe the key to all this is getting the factory PCM tuned to optimise the liquid injection?

LPG whether in liquid form or vapour has different octane properties than ULP doesn't it?

Whilst the LPG PCM may well follow the factory PCM injector pulse signal ... the timing tables for ULP wouldn't be suited to LPG would they?

This would have to impact on economy if FUEL AND TIMING are not optimised towards LPG and thus adversely effect economy readings?

Honest question.

If people want to run LPG then the sensible thing to do would seem be to get the factory PCM timing and fuel tables optimised towards LPG and consider ULP as the "fall back" fuel?

Thinking out loud here ... I know that doing the above definitely helped in respect to my SVI install.

I think you are spot-on Dave and that will certainly be my strategy.
Re-tuned PCM with aggressive timing and High Octane tables, optimised for the LPG.
Leave 20L of PULP in the tank (reserve) and just run the LPG to empty.

I believe that ALPGW is offering a re-tune as an option.

[pk2k78]

I am also on the list to get the liquid installed but with reports on the lack of economy that have been stated it makes you start to think maybe the tried and proven vapour systems are still the way to go at this time.

My decision to get the liquid system is based on the stated economy advertised by the company and if the system has more power on gas well that is just an added bonus.

I travel 40,000-50,000 kms per year so the economy is important.

Maybe ( and I hope ) all is sorted with the liquid and this is just some teething problems.

GOOD report Andrew by the way !!!

Any more economy reports from any one else who has the liquid stuff and has done a some kms ?

Mike

Here are the results I have seen to date (Alloytec with donut tank (takes between 47 and 49 litres)) Also note that the tanks were run out completely to the point that it flicked to petrol. All driving was as per my usual driving style. No "hard" driving.

1st full tank (approx 90% hwy driving) = 349kms
2nd full tank (approx 70% hwy driving) = 315kms
3rd full tank (approx 50% hwy driving) = 308kms

On petrol I have gotten as low as 7.8 litres per 100kms (all hwy). Max I saw was 12 all city kms. An average week for me is 70% hwy kms which saw my fuel consumption vary between 9 and 10 litres per 100kms.

I think "BlownBA" got the message to APS because they left a message on my phone yesterday concerned that I have been bagging them on the forum. This is of course not the case, simply a bunch of customers sharing their experiences.

[andlis]

Here are the results I have seen to date (Alloytec with donut tank (takes between 47 and 49 litres)) Also note that the tanks were run out completely to the point that it flicked to petrol. All driving was as per my usual driving style. No "hard" driving.

1st full tank (approx 90% hwy driving) = 349kms
2nd full tank (approx 70% hwy driving) = 315kms
3rd full tank (approx 50% hwy driving) = 308kms

On petrol I have gotten as low as 7.8 litres per 100kms (all hwy). Max I saw was 12 all city kms. An average week for me is 70% hwy kms which saw my fuel consumption vary between 9 and 10 litres per 100kms.

I think "BlownBA" got the message to APS because they left a message on my phone yesterday concerned that I have been bagging them on the forum. This is of course not the case, simply a bunch of customers sharing their experiences.

So the best you got was around 13l/100km + or - :bawl: very disappointing.

i agree with davehat and t2000 i think this problem will be solved without too much of a hassle i dont think it is a design problem well i hope it is not. kurt my installer has been great from the first day i spoke to him and i have confidence the boys at alpgw, aps etc will sort it out quick smart once they acknowledge there is a problem.

[Highway]

I will be also getting a tune done straight after the liquid install to maximise the benefits of economy and performance.

Just wondering also how accurate the computers are in the VE's (V8 & V6) when you are calculating economy figures.

It will be good to get the car on the open road once everything is installed and tuned.

Mike

[loudvtss]

If a tune is required to get the 5% difference in economy then that should be advertised as well. They should say economy with Liquid injection is going to be within x% but with a tune you can expect to get within x%. Simple. Having said that, if the economy is worse than vapour without the tune then maybe they're better off saying nothing. I'm waiting for someone from APS to come on and let us know what's going on?

[pk2k78]

If a tune is required to get the 5% difference in economy then that should be advertised as well. They should say economy with Liquid injection is going to be within x% but with a tune you can expect to get within x%. Simple. Having said that, if the economy is worse than vapour without the tune then maybe they're better off saying nothing. I'm waiting for someone from APS to come on and let us know what's going on?

They do tunes for $1250....

[mrtockley]

They do tunes for $1250....

So, your $5,300 conversion less 2k plus $1250 turns out to be $4,550 !

Getting pretty exie now ...

Tock.

[loudvtss]

So, your $5,300 conversion less 2k plus $1250 turns out to be $4,550 !

Getting pretty exie now ...

Tock.

So now people need to do their calculations based on $4,550 instead of $3,300. So if my calculations worked out that I needed to keep the car for 3 years to pay off the system I'd need to keep it for 4 to factor in the tune to get the 5% economy otherwise it would be longer as the economy is about 30%.

[Wonky]

So, your $5,300 conversion less 2k plus $1250 turns out to be $4,550 !

Getting pretty exie now ...

Tock.

What about if you've already had a tune as many on here have? I thought from my earlier reading here that the LPG system worked directly off the ECU so it basically shouldn't matter who tunes it - the tune should do for LPG what it does for petrol???? :confused: Most places are now charging around $800 for a full custom tune on a VE so $1250 sounds steep.

[T2000]

I think you guys might be jumping to conclusions...

It appears that APS / ALPGW / ALPGC haven't been given the opportunity to check the install of the cars in question (please correct me if I am wrong). Keep in mind that these cars are the pioneers here. The discrepancies in claimed and actual fuel economy could be installation faults/ faulty parts...

To the LILPG owners:

"How long since your install date?"
"Have the suppliers/ installers accepted that there is a problem?"
"What has been proposed to address the economy deficiency?"
I understood that the re-tuning was an upgrade or extra to enhance performance, not necessarily required to achieve the advertised performance & economy figures.

The $1250 tune is SUPER EXPENSIVE!!! :confused:
What is included in the tune? Any other upgraded components?
I was told it would be a mail order! (therefore I would be speaking to a forum sponsor and getting it done cheaper & on a Dyno!)

[DaveHAT]

What about if you've already had a tune as many on here have? I thought from my earlier reading here that the LPG system worked directly off the ECU so it basically shouldn't matter who tunes it - the tune should do for LPG what it does for petrol???? :confused: Most places are now charging around $800 for a full custom tune on a VE so $1250 sounds steep.

Essentially true Gaz ... but the tune is still optimised for ULP, not LPG.

IMO only ... the LPG computer does indeed follow the injector pulse signal from the factory PCM but LPG having different octane characteristics than ULP means it should require different timing tables.

I understand that to get the same "bang" as petrol with LPG you need more fuel ... therefore the amount of timing that provides a good "bang" when on 98 or other forms of ULP probably doesn't necassarily provide the same "Bang" when it comes to LPG.

Happy to be corrected on any of the information I've posted as I'm only posting what my research has lead me to believe.

I think the difference is ... it will "work" utilising the existing/current tune regardless of whether the tune is the factory tune or a "performance" MAFless tune ... but it will work well & optimally if the PCM is tuned specifically with a focus on what LPG needs.

MikeVY has both his wagons running MAFless with LPG and with OTRs, as do I ... and with the factory PCM tuned with the focus on LPG you really can't tell the difference to when it's on petrol ... other than the $50 less you pay at the pump of course. :lol:

EDIT: MikeVY and I are using the SVI systems FWIW. :)

[T2000]

Essentially true Gaz ... but the tune is still optimised for ULP, not LPG.

IMO only ... the LPG computer does indeed follow the injector pulse signal from the factory PCM but LPG having different octane characteristics than ULP means it should require different timing tables.

I understand that to get the same "bang" as petrol with LPG you need more fuel ... therefore the amount of timing that provides a good "bang" when on 98 or other forms of ULP probably doesn't necassarily provide the same "Bang" when it comes to LPG.

Happy to be corrected on any of the information I've posted as I'm only posting what my research has lead me to believe.

I think the difference is ... it will "work" utilising the existing/current tune regardless of whether the tune is the factory tune of a "performance" MAFless tune ... but it will work well & optimally if the PCM is tuned specifically with a focus on what LPG needs.

MikeVY has both his wagons running MAFless with LPG and with OTRs, as do I ... and with the factory PCM tuned with the focus on LPG you really can't tell the difference to when it's on petrol ... other than the $50 less you pay at the pump of course. :lol:

EDIT: MikeVY and I are using the SVI systems FWIW. :)

I think your info is spot-on Dave.

I am hoping that mine performs fairly well "out of the box" due to the oztrack tune (I think Steve was fairly aggressive with the High Octane Table?)... but still intend to get a touch-up tune down the track.

If you want to get really serious about optimizing for LPG I believe upping the Comp Ratios above 11 and installation of a baby cam would help ALOT!
(Probably not part of my plans though)

[Calais V 6.0]

I can confirm that my injectors are the green ones,
and also my supplier has spoken to Ben Lee who seems to be the man when it comes to this topic, Bens reaction on the lpg useage was one of disbelief and was not very helpful, he virtually commented that i must be driving it really hard as he could not comprehend the excess use ( which i guess in a way is positive as it would be a fair assumption that there is a problem and the useage has the potential to be significantly lower) Any way i dont like being told i am mistaken so i went on a bit of a road trip to prove the excess usage in the most controlled environment i could achieve and this was
1. filled both lpg and PULP at the shell servo at sutton forest
2. drove on lpg to marulan and back to sutton forest in a controlled manner all in cruise control apart from the obvious start and stops, averaging 103km/h with ambient temperature of 16C and a total distance of 52.1km
3. drove from the exact same position at sutton forest to marulan and back on PULP averaging 104 km/h @ 16C with almost identical driving techniques
4. filled both PULP and LPG using the same 2 identical pumps at the shell servo at sutton forest
The less than flattering results are as follows
1. PULP useage - 5 litres (minus .08 litres which was the amount of petrol used to start on petrol while the gas was purging) so PULP usage for the trip was 4.92 litres which = 9.44l/100km = $15/100km
2. lpg useage - 6.69 litres = 12.84l/100km = $8.73/100km
Based on this the LPG usage was actually 36% higher.
obviously there is room for error but even with an unlikely error of 10% the usage is still unacceptable and my installer is going to talk to ben again so if i hear anymore i will keep this post updated,
also i have found out that the digital fuel useage display is virtually useless when running lpg.

Brilliant info there Andlis. Thankyou:bow:

I have not had a response to my PM to APS as yet. Sent it 2 days ago. As T2000 said, the feedback from the guys on here with their systems me have had their systems done elsewhere. I hope that once APS get on here, they will be able to provide answers.

As I will be driving to Melbourne to have APS do my install, I wonder who I can take the car to for its 1000k service? Will I need to take it to the Woolongong installer for the service, or will the service be able to be done by any LPG installer?

[T2000]

Brilliant info there Andlis. Thankyou:bow:

I have not had a response to my PM to APS as yet. Sent it 2 days ago. As T2000 said, the feedback from the guys on here with their systems me have had their systems done elsewhere. I hope that once APS get on here, they will be able to provide answers.

As I will be driving to Melbourne to have APS do my install, I wonder who I can take the car to for its 1000k service? Will I need to take it to the Woolongong installer for the service, or will the service be able to be done by any LPG installer?

I think the service would have to be done by one of ALPGW 's authorised installers. - Which would include Wollongong

The service is a component check etc & possibly a change of the filter that goes between the filler & tank. I don't think there is much else involved.

[Calais V 6.0]

I think the service would have to be done by one of ALPGW 's authorised installers. - Which would include Wollongong

The service is a component check etc & possibly a change of the filter that goes between the filler & tank. I don't think there is much else involved.

Thanks for the quick reply mate. Looks like a nice drive down the coast for me then!

[German Statesman]

I expressed concerns about this exact scenario back at the start of this thread...not so much the ineffectiveness of the kit but the poor customer service typical of the LPG industry.

We're back to same old, same old by the look of it.

Not to be negative, but I did say i was a cynic when it paid to be, and I gave a very loud warning. Now we have installers running around like excited lap dogs making excuses for manufacturers and despite repeated requests, no reply from them - funny how the thread started off with a post from them...

I sincerely hope these are teething problems...if this is typical of what's happened before, keep your money fellas and go somewhere reputable.

[Kurt ALPGC]

G Day Guys,

For those of you that dont know, there is an enormous amount of work going on behind the scenes by the R&D Team of the ALPGW to make this product right for all of our cars. In regards to comments made about Ben Lee not being very helpfull an so on; What a load of rubish! He is an absolute professional and a true gentelman, and congratulations to all that he has done. For performance minded people wich most of you are would be aware that with power increase comes a certain loss of efficiency and going by some of the poor figures posted with 50 km round trips as fuel estimations!!, very nice power increases and cutting your P ULP bills in half should maybe step back and have a good look at whats going on here.
And maybe stop posting such negative threads until youve been back to your installers/suppliers and give them a chance to address these awful problems that your having with your cars that realy do kick ass on the JTG Liquid Injectoin System. A DAY IS LIKE A WEEK WHEN YOUR WAITING AND LIKE A FEW MINUTES WHEN YOUR WORKING, evryone involved in this are doing the best they can and if what has been achieved already is any indication the future of LP Gas CONVERSIONS in Australia is in very good hands.




Kurt Zeidler

Managing Director of Australian LP Gas Conversions Pty Ltd.

[German Statesman]

Here is your first problem, and one just committed by yourself:


G Day Guys,

For performance minded people wich most of you are would be aware that with power increase comes a certain loss of efficiency and going by some of the poor figures posted with 50 km round trips as fuel estimations!!, very nice power increases and cutting your P ULP bills in half should maybe step back and have a good look at whats going on here.

Kurt Zeidler

Managing Director of Australian LP Gas Conversions Pty Ltd.

No communication from anyone from your company in the past in this thread has mentioned that the best results won't be obtained in 50km short trips, or by achieving the power figures mentioned. Simple maths will tell you that the initial results recorded so far are NOT cutting PULP bills in half.


Here is your second problem:-


Gday Guys,

We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. explorer )

Your third problem is that by revealing your R&D team are trying to come up with a fix for these problems, you have just admitted you have been using the first couple of cars as guinea pigs...in a matter of a few words, you have just stated that you have brought an untried product to market, and the customers whose cars you have converted are assisting you with your R&D after paying thousands of dollars for an unproven system.

How dare you get on this forum and start flailing like a madman about to lose his last $100 on the blackjack table, but blaming everyone else for this???

Instead of abusing the customers who are worried about the sums of money they have paid based on what seems to be the incorrect claims continually made about fuel consumption with this system of yours, I suggest you lose the attitude and start making positive statements about the ways you will rectify this situation. I have just received an email from a forum member who is that concerned about the last couple of posts in this thread, he has mentioned involvement from Consumer Affairs may be required.

You're on notice, Kurt. At no further cost to the customers who have already paid out for a conversion that was proposed by your own staff in writing on this forum to deliver a certain amount of fuel consumption and performance, I sincerely recommend you cease any further conversions until these exisiting conversions are recitified to the customer's satisfaction, and achieving the results you have boasted about in this thread.

I look forward to seeing the results.

[ratter]

Have a look before you go off, he is involved in gas but is not from ALPGWH :)

[andlis]

I think your info is spot-on Dave.

I am hoping that mine performs fairly well "out of the box" due to the oztrack tune (I think Steve was fairly aggressive with the High Octane Table?)... but still intend to get a touch-up tune down the track.

If you want to get really serious about optimizing for LPG I believe upping the Comp Ratios above 11 and installation of a baby cam would help ALOT!
(Probably not part of my plans though)


G Day Guys,

For those of you that dont know, there is an enormous amount of work going on behind the scenes by the R&D Team of the ALPGW to make this product right for all of our cars. In regards to comments made about Ben Lee not being very helpfull an so on; What a load of rubish! He is an absolute professional and a true gentelman, and congratulations to all that he has done. For performance minded people wich most of you are would be aware that with power increase comes a certain loss of efficiency and going by some of the poor figures posted with 50 km round trips as fuel estimations!!, very nice power increases and cutting your P ULP bills in half should maybe step back and have a good look at whats going on here.
And maybe stop posting such negative threads until youve been back to your installers/suppliers and give them a chance to address these awful problems that your having with your cars that realy do kick ass on the JTG Liquid Injectoin System. A DAY IS LIKE A WEEK WHEN YOUR WAITING AND LIKE A FEW MINUTES WHEN YOUR WORKING, evryone involved in this are doing the best they can and if what has been achieved already is any indication the future of LP Gas CONVERSIONS in Australia is in very good hands.




Kurt Zeidler

Managing Director of Australian LP Gas Conversions Pty Ltd.

Hi Kurt,

check your inbox i have sent you a personal message

[T2000]

Here is your first problem, and one just committed by yourself:



No communication from anyone from your company in the past in this thread has mentioned that the best results won't be obtained in 50km short trips, or by achieving the power figures mentioned. Simple maths will tell you that the initial results recorded so far are NOT cutting PULP bills in half.


Here is your second problem:-



Your third problem is that by revealing your R&D team are trying to come up with a fix for these problems, you have just admitted you have been using the first couple of cars as guinea pigs...in a matter of a few words, you have just stated that you have brought an untried product to market, and the customers whose cars you have converted are assisting you with your R&D after paying thousands of dollars for an unproven system.

How dare you get on this forum and start flailing like a madman about to lose his last $100 on the blackjack table, but blaming everyone else for this???

Instead of abusing the customers who are worried about the sums of money they have paid based on what seems to be the incorrect claims continually made about fuel consumption with this system of yours, I suggest you lose the attitude and start making positive statements about the ways you will rectify this situation. I have just received an email from a forum member who is that concerned about the last couple of posts in this thread, he has mentioned involvement from Consumer Affairs may be required.

You're on notice, Kurt. At no further cost to the customers who have already paid out for a conversion that was proposed by your own staff in writing on this forum to deliver a certain amount of fuel consumption and performance, I sincerely recommend you cease any further conversions until these exisiting conversions are recitified to the customer's satisfaction, and achieving the results you have boasted about in this thread.

I look forward to seeing the results.


Steady up GS...

Before you start a :vpo:flame:vpo: battle find out who you are talking too.
Kurt is the meat in the sandwich here. He is an installer of a system which ALPGW is supplying, JTG is manufacturing. He is installing a product which the manufacturer claims will do xyz.

He is no doubt trying to establish why the product has not met the customers expectation, by discussing the problems with the distributor ALPGW (Ben Lee). At no stage has he said that he represents the product nor has he said that he will not try to assist his customers in getting the maximum efficiency & performance out of the product.

Would you blame your mechanic if the Head & cam package that you asked him to install did not perform to your expectation/ or as advertised?

After encouragement from other LS1 members Kurt has joined the forum, hopefully to provide information and advice to the rest of us (in far more detail than those of us who are outside of the industry would normally have access to)... much in the same way that blownba has been able to.

Call me optimistic but I am hoping that there is an explanation for the higher than expected fuel consumption figures that we have seen so far. If people share information and work with their installer and the distributor then I am sure the bugs can be ironed out!

If it comes to pass that the Distributor/ Manufacturer can not rectify the problems and deliver what has been promised/ advertised... then it will be time for your :soap: tirade. And I am sure that there will be more than one customer speaking to consumer affairs.

Until then try to put your bullet back in the gun and allow the people who are investing the money sort this out with the installers & distributors. Inflammatory and defamatory comments are not helpful.

[Highway]

Steady up GS...

Before you start a :vpo:flame:vpo: battle find out who you are talking too.
Kurt is the meat in the sandwich here. He is an installer of a system which ALPGW is supplying, JTG is manufacturing. He is installing a product which the manufacturer claims will do xyz.

He is no doubt trying to establish why the product has not met the customers expectation, by discussing the problems with the distributor ALPGW (Ben Lee). At no stage has he said that he represents the product nor has he said that he will not try to assist his customers in getting the maximum efficiency & performance out of the product.

Would you blame your mechanic if the Head & cam package that you asked him to install did not perform to your expectation/ or as advertised?

After encouragement from other LS1 members Kurt has joined the forum, hopefully to provide information and advice to the rest of us (in far more detail than those of us who are outside of the industry would normally have access to)... much in the same way that blownba has been able to.

Call me optimistic but I am hoping that there is an explanation for the higher than expected fuel consumption figures that we have seen so far. If people share information and work with their installer and the distributor then I am sure the bugs can be ironed out!

If it comes to pass that the Distributor/ Manufacturer can not rectify the problems and deliver what has been promised/ advertised... then it will be time for your :soap: tirade. And I am sure that there will be more than one customer speaking to consumer affairs.

Until then try to put your bullet back in the gun and allow the people who are investing the money sort this out with the installers & distributors. Inflammatory and defamatory comments are not helpful.

I agree with what you said in your post Chris.

Maybe German Statesman needs to pull his horns in for few minutes and give Kurt a fair go.

[mmciau]

Steady up GS...

Before you start a :vpo:flame:vpo: battle find out who you are talking too.
Kurt is the meat in the sandwich here. He is an installer of a system which ALPGW is supplying, JTG is manufacturing. He is installing a product which the manufacturer claims will do xyz.

He is no doubt trying to establish why the product has not met the customers expectation, by discussing the problems with the distributor ALPGW (Ben Lee). At no stage has he said that he represents the product nor has he said that he will not try to assist his customers in getting the maximum efficiency & performance out of the product.

Would you blame your mechanic if the Head & cam package that you asked him to install did not perform to your expectation/ or as advertised?

After encouragement from other LS1 members Kurt has joined the forum, hopefully to provide information and advice to the rest of us (in far more detail than those of us who are outside of the industry would normally have access to)... much in the same way that blownba has been able to.

Call me optimistic but I am hoping that there is an explanation for the higher than expected fuel consumption figures that we have seen so far. If people share information and work with their installer and the distributor then I am sure the bugs can be ironed out!

If it comes to pass that the Distributor/ Manufacturer can not rectify the problems and deliver what has been promised/ advertised... then it will be time for your :soap: tirade. And I am sure that there will be more than one customer speaking to consumer affairs.

Until then try to put your bullet back in the gun and allow the people who are investing the money sort this out with the installers & distributors. Inflammatory and defamatory comments are not helpful.

Well, to underpin German Statesman's post, the next post from the Fitter and/or Manufacturer represenatives should be Ben Lee explaining in clear and concise steps 'just what is the current position and what are the immediate short term expectations of the Package'?

The lack of pertinent information from the Manufacturer has been very much lacking.

Pioneering clients and future clients need reassuring now!

Mike

[powermat]

Excellent Post Andrew!:bow::bow::bow:

Thankyou for all the extra info.
This is a very thorough and apparantly accurate test of the LILPG system.


I'll go out on a limb and disagree that this was an accurate test.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that the filler shutoff that cuts off the fill line when the tank reaches 80% capacity is controlled by an ultrasonic sensor in the tank and therefore probably not accurate enough to run a test like this.
Accurately filling the tank after the petrol run is obviously far easier.

With a 50 odd kilometre test you'd only need a small error in the LPG used to make an enormous error in the L/100 result.

The only way to accurately measure it is over 9 or 10 tank fills where this error is minimised.

I've done exactly this with a VE V8 with the JTG conversion and the economy decrease is around 8% over petrol (it surprised me as well).

For the records I have no connection whatsoever with LPG Warehouse or any fitters

[andlis]

I agree with what you said in your post Chris.

Maybe German Statesman needs to pull his horns in for few minutes and give Kurt a fair go.

Well said Guys,

I think Kurt could have maybe chose his words better, however he is not the first person to come on here including myself and write a post that does not come across the way you would have liked it to, as we are all fully aware it is hard to write something the way you would say it face to face.

I am a customer of Kurts and as far as i am concerned he has been great from the first day we started talking and i am sure he will continue to be helpful as he is a principalled and fair dinkum guy. And i standby what i have said, if you want a gas conversion done i would reccommend kurt without hesitation

As i have said in previous posts i am more than happy with my install it looks great it goes great but from my perception it seems to be chewing more lpg than what was expected, i may be wrong i am no mechanic or engineer and it is certainly not the first time i would have stuffed up but to the best of my knowlegde this is the case.

Kurt is right about one thing though there seems to be a hell of a lot of negativity about lpg on these forums, and it may be warranted however i personally beleive that the jtg liquid kit is well worth the money spent and if i had another car i would do the same regardless of the extra fuel consumption because for me, and i am only speaking for myself obviously everyones situation will be different but for me the extra power the lower fuel costs and excellent driveability are well worth it.

Any way guys Kurt is a good guy and a good installer just probably very frustrated because he is so passionate about what he does and i completely understand why he reacted the way he did

will keep posted about the system but if anyone is having second thoughts about it dont, this is a good system and worth the money

Andrew

[Runninglean]

Why is there a lack of hard statistical evidence regarding the performance of JTP by the supplier(s) in this country?
I’d of thought test results would have been conclusive prior to the system being released on the market.
Surely the stats are sitting on a table somewhere????? :confused:

[andlis]

I'll go out on a limb and disagree that this was an accurate test.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I'm under the impression that the filler shutoff that cuts off the fill line when the tank reaches 80% capacity is controlled by an ultrasonic sensor in the tank and therefore probably not accurate enough to run a test like this.
Accurately filling the tank after the petrol run is obviously far easier.

With a 50 odd kilometre test you'd only need a small error in the LPG used to make an enormous error in the L/100 result.

The only way to accurately measure it is over 9 or 10 tank fills where this error is minimised.

I've done exactly this with a VE V8 with the JTG conversion and the economy decrease is around 8% over petrol (it surprised me as well).

For the records I have no connection whatsoever with LPG Warehouse or any fitters

Thats probably a fair comment and as i say i am no expert or mechanic so i dont pretend to know how the tank fill works, but i would like to pose the question that if you did 5 or 6 small fills like i have done and everyone shows an extra 30% useage wouldnt that indicate a true usage? what i mean is if when an lpg tank is filled it can sometimes over fill ie 82% but would i be right in assuming that it could also be underfilled ie 78% with the later indicating better consumption then it is actually doing? i guess i am just struggling with this concept because overtime it should even out ie one tank regardless of the amount used may seem really bad then the next tank may look really good etc.
I hope it makes sense please feel free to comment

Andrew

p.s congrats on your install how long have you had it done for, is all good with it?





























but please as i say correct me if i am wrong

[powermat]

i guess i am just struggling with this concept because overtime it should even out ie one tank regardless of the amount used may seem really bad then the next tank may look really good etc.
I hope it makes sense please feel free to comment

Andrew


Your right , the errors should balance themselves out over time, and they did for me.
As I said, don't work it out over one tank, take the average over the 8 or 9 tanks and i'm sure the consumption you come up with will be much lower.

In the 50 km test mentioned it should have been in closed loop 95% of the time so there's no reason it would have used this much fuel.
If it was running rich enough to give the economy claimed it would have flagged a rich code and put the mil lamp on.

[andlis]

Your right , the errors should balance themselves out over time, and they did for me.
As I said, don't work it out over one tank, take the average over the 8 or 9 tanks and i'm sure the consumption you come up with will be much lower.

In the 50 km test mentioned it should have been in closed loop 95% of the time so there's no reason it would have used this much fuel.
If it was running rich enough to give the economy claimed it would have flagged a rich code and put the mil lamp on.

Thanks Mate,

I hear what you are saying and it will be nice if i see these figures averaging out, i will keep a close eye on it. To date i have added lpg 4 times but all 4 times have been only amounts of around 10 to 20 litres but on every occassion the usage averaged around 30% more than petrol ie driving to work and back over the past year on petrol i have averaged around the 16l/100km yet both times i have filled on lpg it has averaged around 21l/100km anyway we will see

Thanks for the help

Andrew

[German Statesman]

I agree with what you said in your post Chris.

Maybe German Statesman needs to pull his horns in for few minutes and give Kurt a fair go.

Ok fair point...let's wait and see.

I'm sensitive about this because the negativity mentioned on these forums about LPG comes from past distributors/installers stuffing the industry in the first place with poor quality equipment, poor service and take the money and run attitudes.

Despite what my post said, I'm hoping for a positive outcome - I've seen liquid injection results from a couple of years ago, and there's enormous potential (yes, the 'truck' kit as Ben put it).

That being said however, its not for amateurs and requires a lot of fitment specific calibration, some of which may not even be needed for an identical conversion. Not knowing the installers directly, I hope that's the case.

I'm angry at the lack of response to the problems experienced in this thread, but there was no problem with posting the good news when it was launched.

Alright, let's have the good news - fire away :moon:

[blownba]

You better look out German Statesman, theres a loaded gun heading your way very soon me thinks..........
You really have a friggin problem. Where the hell do you get off making a statement like that^^^^???????
I have a VE 6.0L customer that is swearing that economy is very close to that of petrol, same as the Territory owner and the falcon owners ETC.....
And these customers would have to be some of the most pedantic customers I have ever dealt with and they are nothing but wrapped.
The case here is just one car. You are baising all your crap and missinformed BS on one car that probably has a calibrater one size too big in it BIG DEAL!!!!!!! 10 min fix.
You are a true freak and I would love to know where you get off having a go at people like that.
Get a life mate.

[Dr.Gas]

I expressed concerns about this exact scenario back at the start of this thread...not so much the ineffectiveness of the kit but the poor customer service typical of the LPG industry.

We're back to same old, same old by the look of it.

Not to be negative, but I did say i was a cynic when it paid to be, and I gave a very loud warning. Now we have installers running around like excited lap dogs making excuses for manufacturers and despite repeated requests, no reply from them - funny how the thread started off with a post from them...

I sincerely hope these are teething problems...if this is typical of what's happened before, keep your money fellas and go somewhere reputable.

Well that just about enough GS it's about time you put up or shut up!!!!! you get on these forums and offer opinion on systems that it seems to me that you haven't seen or had any experience with. Kurt is an excellent installer, Ben Lee (my collegue) is extreamly experienced and as helpful as time permits.

The bone heads get on this forum who perform poor unsubstanciated tests and then post these results on a public forum should be ashamed of themselves.

We @ ALPGW have done extensive testing (proper testing) and based our claims on these results. there are always variations car to car. When you have something to say that is backed by some form of experience with the product in question.........speak up until then pull your friggen head in.

I take offence to folk like you who are more than prepared to post verbal diarroh and diss people you don't even know.

And as for the people from ALPGW not getting on this forum............some us have lives outside the LPG industry, kids, sports, family and the like. We are working 12-14 hours a day because of the huge demand for JTG..........must be doing something right.

Someone show me a LPG system that can produce the same results as JTG.......................suppose I'll be waiting a while.

Update on the ALPGW 6.0L VE ute 247.5rwkw on JTG 232.0 rwkw PULP. Going to do economy tests on this car next week.........will post the results.

[CALDIR]

Hi

I bumped into some of the guys from ALPGW this week and had a couple of questions in regards to converting my WK Grange to run on the JTG style lpg system. I think anyone that needs to know or wants to know anything about this kit should go down their and ask for Rob and he will give you everything you need to know about the system and a complete run down on it, "the good the bad and the ugly (oh the ugly bit is me!)."

You can see the kit, view it in pieces, view it installed in a car, even take a car for a test drive with it fitted before committing to an install. They also have a nice trick that has just been developed that they can offer performance orientated customers by way of fitting a switch on the dash or somewhere in the car that allows you to choose a tune to suit the higher octane and quicker burning properties of lpg.....but instead of hearing it from me go down and check it out for yourself. When you want to run on petrol you can choose the tune that is better suited to petrol and when you want to run on gas you use the tune better suited for that!....well done guys, gone are the days of the old venturi system!

For the record: I am no way affiliated, friends or in business partnership with ALPGW, in actual fact I am good friends with Glenn at G&D Performance and friends with the whole Chev's crew so the above is an unbiased opinion.

regards,

Richard Taranto
HRTSEN

[andlis]

Well that just about enough GS it's about time you put up or shut up!!!!! you get on these forums and offer opinion on systems that it seems to me that you haven't seen or had any experience with. Kurt is an excellent installer, Ben Lee (my collegue) is extreamly experienced and as helpful as time permits.

The bone heads get on this forum who perform poor unsubstanciated tests and then post these results on a public forum should be ashamed of themselves.

We @ ALPGW have done extensive testing (proper testing) and based our claims on these results. there are always variations car to car. When you have something to say that is backed by some form of experience with the product in question.........speak up until then pull your friggen head in.

I take offence to folk like you who are more than prepared to post verbal diarroh and diss people you don't even know.

And as for the people from ALPGW not getting on this forum............some us have lives outside the LPG industry, kids, sports, family and the like. We are working 12-14 hours a day because of the huge demand for JTG..........must be doing something right.

Someone show me a LPG system that can produce the same results as JTG.......................suppose I'll be waiting a while.

Update on the ALPGW 6.0L VE ute 247.5rwkw on JTG 232.0 rwkw PULP. Going to do economy tests on this car next week.........will post the results.

This is rich what sort of a person are you! the people here that you are calling boneheads are the same ones that spend their hard earned money on performance equipment and lpg kits etc etc beacause of what is on this site and if it was not for this site i would have never known about the jtg system.
People come on these forums to ask for help and too see if other people have experienced similar problems so they can understand more about the topic. and before you start calling me a bonehead and telling me i should be ashamed of myself, take a long look at what you just wrote and some of the people you criticised, if you had taken the time to read all the posts you would have noticed that the majority of my posts have praised kurt and the jtg system,but no! you dont talk about the positive posts you just come on hear and complain about the negative ones as if its the end of the world, and i quote!!! the only negative feedback i have given is that to the best of my knowledge the lpg consumption is on the high side i might be wrong but i have done the best i could manage with no equipment to prove it right or wrong!! because as you say i have a family!!! a wife!!!! and children!!! so i do not have the time money nor the skill to run more substantial tests.
You criticise me and call me an idiot and bonehead, yet have you actually stopped and thought that hell maybe it is using more than it should? maybe this guy is right? maybe BlownBa is right maybe there is a small problem? have you thought about this because i have openly admitted i could be wrong but not once have i been told yeh mate your right there could be a problem we will look into it!! no but i have ben called a liar bonehead etc etc.
And what of these proper tests that you base your claims on where are they????? are they done on a stock car the same make and model as mine has it been tuned??? if so i cant afford a tune where do i stand????where are the results.
i really hope i am wrong about the economy of this system and it does improve because up until this point i have been very positive about jtg and alpgw but if i am right! you have some explaining and apologising to do!!!!! can you honestly say you are 100% sure that there are no bugs with this system think about that before you criticise me again because mate i have spent $5000 on this and gave it some good wraps yet this is how you talk to a paying customer i would hate to see how you talk to everyone else.
i understand you being pissed of about some posts here i would be too but you are no better and you should know better than too come on hear and slag of the way you just did shame on you!!

[Dr.Gas]

This is rich what sort of a person are you! the people here that you are calling boneheads are the same ones that spend their hard earned money on performance equipment and lpg kits etc etc beacause of what is on this site and if it was not for this site i would have never known about the jtg system.
People come on these forums to ask for help and too see if other people have experienced similar problems so they can understand more about the topic. and before you start calling me a bonehead and telling me i should be ashamed of myself, take a long look at what you just wrote and some of the people you criticised, if you had taken the time to read all the posts you would have noticed that the majority of my posts have praised kurt and the jtg system,but no! you dont talk about the positive posts you just come on hear and complain about the negative ones as if its the end of the world, and i quote!!! the only negative feedback i have given is that to the best of my knowledge the lpg consumption is on the high side i might be wrong but i have done the best i could manage with no equipment to prove it right or wrong!! because as you say i have a family!!! a wife!!!! and children!!! so i do not have the time money nor the skill to run more substantial tests.
You criticise me and call me an idiot and bonehead, yet have you actually stopped and thought that hell maybe it is using more than it should? maybe this guy is right? maybe BlownBa is right maybe there is a small problem? have you thought about this because i have openly admitted i could be wrong but not once have i been told yeh mate your right there could be a problem we will look into it!! no but i have ben called a liar bonehead etc etc.
And what of these proper tests that you base your claims on where are they????? are they done on a stock car the same make and model as mine has it been tuned??? if so i cant afford a tune where do i stand????where are the results.
i really hope i am wrong about the economy of this system and it does improve because up until this point i have been very positive about jtg and alpgw but if i am right! you have some explaining and apologising to do!!!!! can you honestly say you are 100% sure that there are no bugs with this system think about that before you criticise me again because mate i have spent $5000 on this and gave it some good wraps yet this is how you talk to a paying customer i would hate to see how you talk to everyone else.
i understand you being pissed of about some posts here i would be too but you are no better and you should know better than too come on hear and slag of the way you just did shame on you!!

Not for one second would I be so small minded to suggest that there is no chance of an issue or calibration error on your particular vehicle. However the testing we conduct are with concise, calibrated equipment on STANDARD VEHICLES. As I wrote there ALWAYS variations vehicle to vehicle. Consider the variations in fuel quality and other infinite factors and folks might start to see the big picture. LONG TERM testing is how the OE manfacturers do it as do we. My issue is more with folks like GS who unlike yourself have no experience with the product in question, but offer opinion based on one maybe two vehicles? We have had as you say heaps more positive feedback from customers with JTG than not. If your personal situation does not improve I am more than happy to liase with your installer to rectify issue. Idiot was never written by the way, please don't put words in my mouth. If I am protective of my industry and our product well I'm sorry. Perhaps you might like to check my cred with the hundreds of folks i have assisted over the 20+ years I have been in this industry.

[Ben Lee]

I have just been informed that some have been getting heated on this forum and that I should have a look. I have just had a quick look at some of the latest posts.

You’re correct! We do have families and other commitments. I myself only get very limited time to browse forums and reply to every comment (There are many forums also discussing Li). I posted some initial information on JTG Li some time ago as once again I was informed that there was a thread discussing it and that they all wanted some information.

From what I can see there are really very few real end users with any issues in this forum. Defiantly outside of this forum we have only heard praise for JTG (economy and performance from end users and ease of install). As you can see from other impartial posts, people ARE achieving great economy (Far exceeding other LPG systems). Combine that with the drivability and power gain and you have a great system.

If anyone really has an issue with economy after conducting some realistic testing (You don’t require money... Just some common sense) all they need to do is bring this to the attention of their installer who in turn will sort it out with ALPGW. This is just common sense isn’t it? I don’t think they should just sit on the PC and hope that someone from the company would stumble upon their post and resolve it?

As powermat stated, unless you can run the ADR drive cycle and have the required emissions equipment, any consumption testing needs to be done over a large amount of Kms. The way it seems people have calculated it is based on the fills being 100% accurate. This just won’t happen with LPG. The fill mechanisms are just not accurate enough to base the test on 50kms. It’s the same as someone conducting a survey and only asking 2 people. The information you capture can be vastly different to the truth.

My advice would be to have some common sense and chat with your installer or ALPGW in person if you think you have any real issue. I think HRTSEN gave some good advice.

Regards,

Ben

[blownba]

I second Dr gas and Ben.
The reason we get our backs up about the crap that has been written here is purely due to the fact that when someone bags the product OR THE INDUSTRY we have poured so much of our lives into, AND believe in, of course you are gonna produce responses like ours.
In reality andlis you really should of liased with your installer before getting on here and posting. I am positive kurt would have been on it like a shot, as he like us have a great deal of passion towrds LPG and the JTG system, instead you have now put an unbelievable blemish on JTG as a product, in the eyes of people on this forum. And the result being knobs like GS posting their crap and a 'I told you so" response which is totally unjustified.
I have numerous JTG conversions now under my belt, I have been in this industry for nearly 15 years and I can say with total conviction that this shite is the best thing to happen to LPG EVER!!!
All my customers have walked away totally satisfied and have been continually ringing me and praising the JTG system and the way in which it performs.
Your car obviously has a slight glitch, and if you had of spoken to Kurt and put the same effort into sorting your problem as you have put into carrying out your own testing (looking at the instant L/100KM does not work) you would be happy by now.

Once again Dr gas is replying to comments that were made that are totally incorrect in reality. Why wouldn't he respond the way he has, the man has more credentials than anyone I can think of in the LPG industry, and fair enough he is angry at what you have posted about the system instead of trying to get Kurt or him to sort it.

[andlis]

Not for one second would I be so small minded to suggest that there is no chance of an issue or calibration error on your particular vehicle. However the testing we conduct are with concise, calibrated equipment on STANDARD VEHICLES. As I wrote there ALWAYS variations vehicle to vehicle. Consider the variations in fuel quality and other infinite factors and folks might start to see the big picture. LONG TERM testing is how the OE manfacturers do it as do we. My issue is more with folks like GS who unlike yourself have no experience with the product in question, but offer opinion based on one maybe two vehicles? We have had as you say heaps more positive feedback from customers with JTG than not. If your personal situation does not improve I am more than happy to liase with your installer to rectify issue. Idiot was never written by the way, please don't put words in my mouth. If I am protective of my industry and our product well I'm sorry. Perhaps you might like to check my cred with the hundreds of folks i have assisted over the 20+ years I have been in this industry.

I dont need to check your credentials. i believe all you guys know what you are talking about and i will re-iterate once again i have complete faith in this system and more faith in Kurt as an installer.

but if you are going to generalise in a post surely you would expect to ruffle a few feathers, and i am in a position now not knowing what to do! do i wait 12 months until i have pooled together enough information to satisfy the critics then what happens if there is a problem? you tell me what should i do?

and as i said before! i understand you and all the good people that are involved getting pissed off with some of the comments on this forum as i would be pissed off too but surely as a professional that deals with this stuff you can understand that most of the comments on here is constructive criticism and if you can accept criticism and use it to progress for the better

and being a professional surely you can ignore the bulls*&t and set people straight without resorting to anger.

There has been a lot more positive things said on here than negative and a hell of a lot of that has come from me but that small bit of criticism should be treated with some respect i have treated the system with respect and would ask only for the same in return,

i am a free man living in the greatest country in the world and love the fact that we can voice our concerns and opinions and i dont hold a grudge on you or anyone else for that fact for doing the same we are all men and will always have different views on the world, however a little bit of courtesy would not hurt from both sides.

and for the record i am sorry i mistook idiot for bonehead that is so much better my mistake sorry :)
Best regards

Andrew

[Dr.Gas]

I dont need to check your credentials. i believe all you guys know what you are talking about and i will re-iterate once again i have complete faith in this system and more faith in Kurt as an installer.

but if you are going to generalise in a post surely you would expect to ruffle a few feathers, and i am in a position now not knowing what to do! do i wait 12 months until i have pooled together enough information to satisfy the critics then what happens if there is a problem? you tell me what should i do?

and as i said before! i understand you and all the good people that are involved getting pissed off with some of the comments on this forum as i would be pissed off too but surely as a professional that deals with this stuff you can understand that most of the comments on here is constructive criticism and if you can accept criticism and use it to progress for the better

and being a professional surely you can ignore the bulls*&t and set people straight without resorting to anger.

There has been a lot more positive things said on here than negative and a hell of a lot of that has come from me but that small bit of criticism should be treated with some respect i have treated the system with respect and would ask only for the same in return,

i am a free man living in the greatest country in the world and love the fact that we can voice our concerns and opinions and i dont hold a grudge on you or anyone else for that fact for doing the same we are all men and will always have different views on the world, however a little bit of courtesy would not hurt from both sides.

and for the record i am sorry i mistook idiot for bonehead that is so much better my mistake sorry :)
Best regards

Andrew

Fair call (like the free man bit and yes this is the greatest country) as i said am more than happy to assist in any way to sort your economy issue........whatever it takes. I sometimes am a little too passionate re the LPG industry.....I love it........ maybe too much!!!!!! No offence taken hope same goes.

All the best

BM

[andlis]

Fair call (like the free man bit and yes this is the greatest country) as i said am more than happy to assist in any way to sort your economy issue........whatever it takes. I sometimes am a little too passionate re the LPG industry.....I love it........ maybe too much!!!!!! No offence taken hope same goes.

All the best

BM


None whatsoever mate,

I just hope if i have inadvertantly caused you kurt or anyone else involved any undue stress plese understand that it was not intentional i cant say any more how happy i am with the system but obviously have formed an opinion on the usage probably premature, and i probably should have waited but in all honesty i was not bagging the system and did not expect anyone to take these comments and use them to say i told you so, for that i am sorry.
but unless everyone here can tell me i am full of it for sure then please take my comments on board as well.

cheers mate thanks for the understanding your a good man

Best regards

Andrew


I second Dr gas and Ben.
The reason we get our backs up about the crap that has been written here is purely due to the fact that when someone bags the product OR THE INDUSTRY we have poured so much of our lives into, AND believe in, of course you are gonna produce responses like ours.
In reality andlis you really should of liased with your installer before getting on here and posting. I am positive kurt would have been on it like a shot, as he like us have a great deal of passion towrds LPG and the JTG system, instead you have now put an unbelievable blemish on JTG as a product, in the eyes of people on this forum. And the result being knobs like GS posting their crap and a 'I told you so" response which is totally unjustified.
I have numerous JTG conversions now under my belt, I have been in this industry for nearly 15 years and I can say with total conviction that this shite is the best thing to happen to LPG EVER!!!
All my customers have walked away totally satisfied and have been continually ringing me and praising the JTG system and the way in which it performs.
Your car obviously has a slight glitch, and if you had of spoken to Kurt and put the same effort into sorting your problem as you have put into carrying out your own testing (looking at the instant L/100KM does not work) you would be happy by now.

Once again Dr gas is replying to comments that were made that are totally incorrect in reality. Why wouldn't he respond the way he has, the man has more credentials than anyone I can think of in the LPG industry, and fair enough he is angry at what you have posted about the system instead of trying to get Kurt or him to sort it.

please check your mail i have sent you and ben lee a personal message, i dont think we are getting anywhere with this.

Andrew

[Kurt ALPGC]

Gday boys, great country alright, Go Manly


:goodjob:

[andlis]

Gday boys, great country alright, Go Manly


:goodjob:

Sh*& i did not know you were a manly supporter!! i dont think i can talk to you any more :rofl: well at least they gave it to the mexicans:goodjob: Go the EELS :bawl:

[Kurt ALPGC]

yeah ya get that 40-0 he he he he



have you done a thousand kays yet?

[andlis]

Nah Mate!!

have not had a chance to scratch my butt lately with a new baby and new job not too mention sitting on my butt typing stupid posts on this forum with the wife yelling at me half the time. i dont seem to have much time to get back in it, you will be happy to know that i did give her a wash though :-) its looking good i felt guilty after i left so i washed her that day lol.

speaking of i am in the s^%t as we speak better go to bed

all the best bro talk soon

Andrew

[Runninglean]

They also have a nice trick that has just been developed that they can offer performance orientated customers by way of fitting a switch on the dash or somewhere in the car that allows you to choose a tune to suit the higher octane and quicker burning properties of lpg.When you want to run on petrol you can choose the tune that is better suited to petrol and when you want to run on gas you use the tune better suited for that!

This sounds great.
So is the factory engine management system in control of both tunes or is the ‘switch’ there to activate an additional unit?

[Kurt ALPGC]

Nice trick alright,

one wire but wich one?

[blownba]

Nice trick alright,

one wire but wich one?

me too wondering???

[T2000]

Holy $hit Batman! Didn't look at this thread for 24hrs & it all turned to crap!:bawl:

Good to see that cool heads prevailed in the end and the :flipoff: has stopped.

I believe that I must take some blame for the preceeding $hitfight... like many who are awaiting there own install of LILPG I asked for figures:

Lots of interesting comments from those lucky enough to have had the system fitted and the installers. BUT apart from one dyno result (of which I am a little sceptical - 660NM of Torque from a stocker?) there is no definitive review or testing. All comments seem to be anecdotal or based on supposition and assumption.

I know that this put Andlis' nose out of joint (& I again apologise for that).

BUT to the ALPGW guys... PLEASE consider sharing some more complete information about the system and the tests that you have completed. I believe that it will stop the assumptions and wild accusations that ultimately resulted in the preceeding $hit fight!

Like the previous couple of posters I am intrigued by the switch in the dash to change tunes!!! :confused: IS this an adjustment of sensor signal to the PCM? IAT / MAF / O2 ???

Anyway congrats to all involved for demonstrating the maturity and character to resolve that rather heated discourse.

Cheers

Chris

[Kurt ALPGC]

Gday Chris,

Just another great bit of work from the boys down south.

Something i think i might have to hook up for you as im sure you would realy enjoy it.

Shame your stuffs not here yet,its great day for liquifying.

[T2000]

Gday Chris,

Just another great bit of work from the boys down south.

Something i think i might have to hook up for you as im sure you would realy enjoy it.

Shame your stuffs not here yet,its great day for liquifying.

:bow::bow: You da man Kurt :bow::bow:

Sounds like you've been let in on how to wire the "secret switch".:goodjob:

As I said on Thursday... getting nervous as the deadline approaches:confused:

As long as they didn't put it on the Pony Express I guess I'll be OK!

[German Statesman]

:lmao::lmao::lmao: Some people, I tell ya....

For the record, I'm currently speaking for a small number of 'old school' LPG industry folk who are watching this thread (I notified them of it when the posts started) and judging the installer and manufacturer responses - so far we're wringing our hands at how much world-beating potential the system has with its innovation and achievements, but how the installers/manufacturers involved are blowing their toes off with shotguns. Be assured, our actions are trying to prompt the correct action and although blownba's 15yrs in the industry is to be respected, there's around 72yrs combined experience from 5 industry veterans making comments here, including a bloke who converted an XW Falcon brand new back in 1970..... :teach: :yup:

The truck conversions mentioned earlier, had equal power and equal torque to the diesel equivalents (3 years ago, but never mind :booty:), but needed work to improve the economy. It is correct that more power means a sacrifice in economy because you need fuel to burn to make power, but to claim both are achieveable at the same time takes some explaining when it doesn't happen...

The foam-at-the-mouth types might also recall I posted that I'm looking forward to a positive outcome, and I said right from the very first post good things about LI - this is still the case, and I have two personal vehicles that'll I'll convert - but I warned about the dodgy things the industry does as a whole by not seeking proper funding for projects such as this and using customer's cars as guinea pigs, thus releasing an unproven and problematic conversion on the market. Yes, funnily enough, when you take thousands of dollars off people for work you've done that doesn't back posted claims, they DO get cranky :idea: and the aim is to be transparent about things right from the start and assume that you have to tell the customer everything - bad news and good news. Either that, or you realise that you are going to get arse-kickings for incorrect statements.

T2000 and andlis - you are right to get your backs up like we did, and our problem was the moronic responses from the installers and the lack of input from the manufacturers. The best thing to do is ignore the name calling and wait for the dust to settle so we can see the problems resolved.

Play ball :p

Oh, BTW - you can get dual-table ECM chips from many reputable manufacturers such as CHipTorque. They have the petrol operation on one side, and at the flick of the switch (or wire them so it changes over when you change fuels as we did back in '93 on a guinea pig EB Falcon we bought brand new to carry out tests and experiements on) it activates the LPG side which has a completely different set of settings for LPG. Works very well - COME Racing have had them for many years but not for LPG operation.

[loudvtss]

Finally we have some people here to help answers people's questions. My question is that I've ordered my kit 3.5 months ago and my installer hasn't received my kit. Can someone tell me what's happening? All these people getting their kits installed and mine hasn't arrived. Are there kits or not? The delay is only raising my concerns as I can't get an answer on when my kit will arrive and these issues people are having.. I hope it can get sorted out because I also did some research and found that the liquid system would be best for my car but now not so sure. Can someone please let me know how long it takes to get one of these kits?

[HSV Listy]

IF so many installs have happened and so many people happy, can we have a few things please.
Some of the writing on these post by the people in the industry and people defending the LILPG it would take as long to put a few pictures up that it would take to type some of your comments.

Can we have 3 or 4 cars with back to back dyno reports and pictures of the dyno results, (it takes 2 minutes to take a photo and upload)
Can we have a few cars with 500 or even 1000km average consumtions and some basic engine details like upgraded cam, stock etc
and can we have some customers feedback even what theysaid verbally and you put it here.
There is 30k members on here and APS are a great sponsor so i cant see why it is so hard to get some photos and some real life, real time information on this kit.
How about it please just some photos and facts. I am keen to see how all this goes for my car or cars for the future.

[mmciau]

I am a dual fuel Holden owner.

I am very interested in this updated injection system as I see it as a game-changer on the older vapour technology.

I am one of those persons who have questioned the lack of information forthcoming from the manufacturer/installers over the last month or so.

The manufacturer/installers made claims from the outset and as others have requested, i would like to see the logged data of the gains that are claimed!

Why?

Because the injection system is new technology in its Australian 'infancy' and it is a fairly considerable financial outlay in the first instance.

If all that is claimed by the manufacturer/installers comes to be true, then these parties are very likely to be 'flat out' doing conversions.

Mike

[German Statesman]

Finally we have some people here to help answers people's questions. My question is that I've ordered my kit 3.5 months ago and my installer hasn't received my kit. Can someone tell me what's happening? All these people getting their kits installed and mine hasn't arrived. Are there kits or not? The delay is only raising my concerns as I can't get an answer on when my kit will arrive and these issues people are having.. I hope it can get sorted out because I also did some research and found that the liquid system would be best for my car but now not so sure. Can someone please let me know how long it takes to get one of these kits?

To be fair to the industry, everyone with a gas ticket is booked out a minimum of 6wks in advance and there's bound to be someone that will bleat out a longer term than that....

Some equipment delays have been 3 months or more, especially tanks. I'm told Impco shipments have doubled but everything on every boat for the next 6 months is sold with OEMs getting preference.

Your installer should be in regular contact advising you of expected arrivals of kits as advised by the manufacturers.

[JohnW]

My thoughts on the higher then advertized fuel usage is more then likely a minor tuning adjustment rather then a fundamental problem with the system.

I think I have my head around how the PCM deals with the conversion but any tuning experts please chime in and correct me if I am wrong.

As we have established, standard injector pulse width signal is intercepted and passed on to the gas injectors via its controller. My understanding is that there are no software adjustments available within the gas controller and any adjustments are made by injector selection and finer adjustment made using some type of replaceable calibrator orifice.

But this is where I can see some possible problems and the possible reason why some people are not seeing the expected fuel economy.

ULP stoich is 14.7 LPG stoich is 15.1. The standard PCM is designed to maintain an AFR of 14.7 via closed loop feed back from your O2 sensors. If the injector selection is a little on the rich side, I would suggest the the PCM would trim the fuel delivery back to 14.7 and as such be on the rich side for LPG. It means your car will run fine on ULP and probably fine on Gas, just a bit on the rich side though.

So now we put in a calibrator that forces the AFR upto 15.1. At this point your long term fuel trims will be working overtime trying to get the AFR back to 14.7 until they max out. Hopefully the max out point will be still see your AFR at 15.1 and at this point you should be getting the best fuel economy of LPG.

While you are on ULP the fuel trims should quickly get you back to 14.7 then when you switch over gas after the cold start is finished, you should be back to the ideal LPG AFR.

Hope all that makes sense and I am sure someone will let me know if I have got it wrong here.

[ratter]

That's pretty close, except the ECU is not looking for 14.7 on petrol, it is looking for lambda 1 which just happens to be 14.7 for petrol.
LPG lamdba 1 is 15.5 (approx) on lpg.
If the gas calibrator is exact for the install the Cars ECU should need to do very little correction to long and short term fuel trims, providing the o2 sensor is working correctly.

It is possible that if a vacuum leak was introduced during the install, the o2's would see this as a lean condition and be richening up the mixtures to clear it up,but should remain constant on both fuels. which leads to the question, has the petrol fuel economy been checked after the install, or just running from previous figures?

[daskip]

That's pretty close, except the ECU is not looking for 14.7 on petrol, it is looking for lambda 1 which just happens to be 14.7 for petrol.
LPG lamdba 1 is 15.5 (approx) on lpg.
If the gas calibrator is exact for the install the Cars ECU should need to do very little correction to long and short term fuel trims, providing the o2 sensor is working correctly.

It is possible that if a vacuum leak was introduced during the install, the o2's would see this as a lean condition and be richening up the mixtures to clear it up,but should remain constant on both fuels. which leads to the question, has the petrol fuel economy been checked after the install, or just running from previous figures?

if i run my lpg injection system on anything leaner than 14.8 - 14.9 the car will chuck an engine light saying " to lean ".

unfortunately ive had faulty part after faulty part in my system

we had 1.2 - 1.3 bar of pressure in the lpg lines but when we took it for a drive the pressure dropped to 0.8-0.9 bar of pressure , looks like the valve in the tank has jammed half shut , allowing enough lpg to run and drive but starving under load also had a faulty injector block aswell leaking lpg into 1 cylinder at all times even when the system was shut off.

hoping to get this fixed up asap

[ratter]

Was this liquid injection or vapour injection? Because the line pressure is too low for liquid injection.
14.8 afr ratio is .95 lambda on lpg so that means the system would be adjusting fuel trims quite a bit.

[daskip]

good question

Tank ==> Converter ==> Injection Block ==> Jets In Manifold

[ratter]

good question

Tank ==> Converter ==> Injection Block ==> Jets In Manifold

Sounds like vapour injection.
Your line pressure will be different because you do not have a fuel pump to increase pressures above tank pressure.
You also have an ecu to control air fuel ratio.

Basically your system if vapour injection, it is totally different to what is being discussed. What does your installer say is wrong?

[JohnW]

That's pretty close, except the ECU is not looking for 14.7 on petrol, it is looking for lambda 1 which just happens to be 14.7 for petrol.
LPG lamdba 1 is 15.5 (approx) on lpg.
If the gas calibrator is exact for the install the Cars ECU should need to do very little correction to long and short term fuel trims, providing the o2 sensor is working correctly.

It is possible that if a vacuum leak was introduced during the install, the o2's would see this as a lean condition and be richening up the mixtures to clear it up,but should remain constant on both fuels. which leads to the question, has the petrol fuel economy been checked after the install, or just running from previous figures?

Thanks for the explanation Ratter, but I am still having trouble getting my head around Lambda. I always thought 02 sensors were actually measuring air fuel ratio but thinking a little more about it, they are actually measuring the amount of 02 being produced through the combustion process. Ideal combustion is Lambda 1 and I suppose it doesnt matter what fuel you are using, as long as get the combustion correct, the AFR will follow.

I think I've finally got it:party:

[ratter]

yep, o'2s generate a voltage in relationship to lambda so a lambda 1 reading on petrol would actually be 14.7 a/f ratio, but that same lamnda 1 but running on LPG would be 15.5 a/f ratio.

[greencut]

Ok, just got back from a good country run on gas and averaging 82km/hr over some undulating terrain used 27ltrs over 220km, thats an average of 12.2ltrs/100km, which included giving it a regular "boot". Much happier with that result......getting within 10% of PULP now.

[Wonky]

Ok, just got back from a good country run on gas and averaging 82km/hr over some undulating terrain used 27ltrs over 220km, thats an average of 12.2ltrs/100km, which included giving it a regular "boot". Much happier with that result......getting within 10% of PULP now.

That's sounding better but of course still subject to the vagaries of filling LPG tanks consistently. Sounds like the only way to tell is still over quite a few tanks.

[SSV8TE]

That sounds good 12.2 l per 100 but thats roughly what cammed ve's get now. Im sure both will have their advantages but what kw figures does this system produce as compared with unleaded premium fuel?
Cheers,

Andy.

[pierrek]

I've got an 03 monaro converted (JTG) a few weeks back after minor teething problems an wrapt with perfomance and economy. Had 292 RWKW on petrol will have new figure soon, certinally has more power question is how much??? The boys laying down hard earned reddies for vapor injection will spew!!!

[pk2k78]

Hi guys (JTG affiliates),

I am one of the liquid customers that has experienced some "teething" problems. Although my test conditions are questionable after going through 6 tanks I'm smart enough to know that my economy is way off the mark.

I haven't posted any resentful comments. I'm simply sharing info with other liquid customers.

I dropped my car off at APS this morning to have my concerns looked into (VZ Alloytec). I don't hold grudges, I will be the first person to be shouting praise if the system does what is claimed. You can have the car for as long as it takes.

Please help.

Mat

[loudvtss]

To be fair to the industry, everyone with a gas ticket is booked out a minimum of 6wks in advance and there's bound to be someone that will bleat out a longer term than that....

Some equipment delays have been 3 months or more, especially tanks. I'm told Impco shipments have doubled but everything on every boat for the next 6 months is sold with OEMs getting preference.

Your installer should be in regular contact advising you of expected arrivals of kits as advised by the manufacturers.

I appreciate what you're saying GS but my installer hasn't received 1 kit. He's being told there's supply issues yet there's people here getting their cars done. Originally when I placed my order there were about 8 installers, all victorian. Now we've got installs happening in the Gong so that installer is getting a kit and my installer nothing. We were told the kit was to arrive 2 weeks ago. No phone call to the installer to tell him the kit isn't coming and will arrive at ????. Nothing. He's almost sick of it as I'm busting his balls asking what's happening. He's also got other people asking and he's telling them he doesn't know what's happening and he hasn't received 1 kit. So I can understand if there are issues with shipments but others are getting their kits.

[German Statesman]

I appreciate what you're saying GS but my installer hasn't received 1 kit. He's being told there's supply issues yet there's people here getting their cars done. Originally when I placed my order there were about 8 installers, all victorian. Now we've got installs happening in the Gong so that installer is getting a kit and my installer nothing. We were told the kit was to arrive 2 weeks ago. No phone call to the installer to tell him the kit isn't coming and will arrive at ????. Nothing. He's almost sick of it as I'm busting his balls asking what's happening. He's also got other people asking and he's telling them he doesn't know what's happening and he hasn't received 1 kit. So I can understand if there are issues with shipments but others are getting their kits.

Everytime I bring up autogas kit customer service issues on this forum, I get bawled at by the droolers in the industry that think they are the be all to end all....your example is more proof of what's wrong with them - time poor, disorganised, and too cheap to put on a part-time person to do these things for them which ultimately cost them income.

The fact you have to come onto this forum and air your problems is very sad - forcing a business to explain their actions by publicly stating the issues you have with them is bad but necessary on occasions.

I hope you get some good news soon.

http://www.carsales.com.au/car-review/2964796.aspx

This is one of the press releases that went out when the system was released...Hilbert Klaster has a long-standing reputation in the LPG industry, and has worked on many OEM projects in the past with much success.

You'll notice in the report in plain English, it mentions that LPG consumption is still as much as 15% worse than petrol....

A quick Google search reveals that most of the LPG industry posters here that are making noises about the complaints occuring are, yup, JTG-approved installers, and they have snowed most of the Ford/Holden Falcon/Commodore enthusiasts boards with their posts to showcase their own businesses without paying sponsors ads (one or two cases excepted that did the right thing).

This has all been part of a huge PR campaign to kick off JTG in Australia - the news release listed above is just one of three pages I found in Google searches typing in JTG Australia, and none of them have any real interest in this board other than to line their own pockets....

Well done boys! Great ads for nothing, and then bag the forum members when problems arise! :vpo:

[Calais V 6.0]

Everytime I bring up autogas kit customer service issues on this forum, I get bawled at by the droolers in the industry that think they are the be all to end all....your example is more proof of what's wrong with them - time poor, disorganised, and too cheap to put on a part-time person to do these things for them which ultimately cost them income.

The fact you have to come onto this forum and air your problems is very sad - forcing a business to explain their actions by publicly stating the issues you have with them is bad but necessary on occasions.

I hope you get some good news soon.

http://www.carsales.com.au/car-review/2964796.aspx

This is one of the press releases that went out when the system was released...Hilbert Klaster has a long-standing reputation in the LPG industry, and has worked on many OEM projects in the past with much success.

You'll notice in the report in plain English, it mentions that LPG consumption is still as much as 15% worse than petrol....

A quick Google search reveals that most of the LPG industry posters here that are making noises about the complaints occuring are, yup, JTG-approved installers, and they have snowed most of the Ford/Holden Falcon/Commodore enthusiasts boards with their posts to showcase their own businesses without paying sponsors ads (one or two cases excepted that did the right thing).

This has all been part of a huge PR campaign to kick off JTG in Australia - the news release listed above is just one of three pages I found in Google searches typing in JTG Australia, and none of them have any real interest in this board other than to line their own pockets....

Well done boys! Great ads for nothing, and then bag the forum members when problems arise! :vpo:

Sh!t!!! Here we go again...... Can't we just leave this crap out of the thread? There is a time and a place for it. Now is not the time. We have a new system on the market and only a few customers having already got the system have posted on here regarding higher K's than they thought they were meant to get. Let's wait to see how they go after the installers and manufacturers sort there issues.

Mate, your starting to look a bit silly (not to mention causing loss of business to). You certainly have an axe to grind....

Take a step back off the :soap: for a bit and the guys can focus on sorting customer cars out.....

[blownba]

Oh boy.
You really are a interesting character aren't you GS??
I hope like hell your not directing that post at me GS.
Cause if you ask around you will find that the people who have PM'd me for my shops details have been flat out refused as I am not on here to chase business, as I would not be able to cope with anymore workload anyway, but merely come on here to help provide reliable and accurate information about the system and any gas related issues I can help people with.
And I think that is what you need to concentate on doing also. All your posts seem to be of a derogetory nature, and you have had a go at me in the past with no idea whatsoever of who I am nor what I do. This forum is about sharing ideas and helping one another out with our car related issues not tearing people apart. I admit I have taken the bait and fallen victim to your pathetic dribble also, but it won't happen again, instead I will mearly ignore you as most probalbly have already opted to do.
I have come across many like yourself on another forum and soon enough everyone will get sick of you and all your post being negative in nature and offering nothing constructive toward the forum and its members. If the forum moderators have not noticed you already then there is something seriously flawed here.
You say you have all this experience in the LPG industry, yet I am having trouble trying to find any posts from you where you put your vast knowledge and years of experience to good use and actually help someone instead of being interested in just tearing someone a new one.

On another note I had a Falcon XR6T owner show me his consumption figures today and I was more than impressed. And I hav asked my VE calais owner to pass on to me some consumption figures, and he will be doing so once he has reached the 5000km mark. But so far the results are extreamly promising, but that car is set up alittle different than the vehicle we are talking about.

[mmciau]

blownba

on 15 April this thread commenced with the following statement

Liquid LPG injection is finally here.
Australian LPG Warehouse (www. lpgliquidinjection.com) have been working overtime in developing the first Liquid LPG injection system on the Australian market.
This system is more fuel efficient with an improvement on fuel consumption of up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.
Power gains are also another advantage due to the LPG being injected into the cylinder as a liquid.
The vehicles already developed are Holden LS1 5.7, 6.0ltr, Ford BA/BF 6cyl, Territory 1&2.
These vehicles are all emission approved.

Since then there have been fittings and a series of claims/concerns/inquiries that were not responded to by the principal manufacturer/distributor and a group of installers in a timely and IMHO responsible manner.

Calls have been made to substantiate matters such as 'up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.'

As I have said earlier, the promoted system is an expensive financial outlay so we future proposed consumers require substantiated data before we spend!

I want sound data before I commit! I am not one of the following,

From the famous Goons!!

"Now open your wallet and say after me, Help yourself!!"

So current and potential consumers want to know if the original claims are substantiated and not a just an overnight gimmick!


Mike

[blownba]

Yes I understand you want hard facts.
I am not in a position to give you anything other than what I have seen and experienced, but fair enough if thats not enough.
My advise to you would be to not commit to liquid injection if you have any doubts about it acheiving what it claims and go for a 'tried and proven' vapour injection set up that has 'hard data' about its performance.
I am not in the habit of selling sytems. I can talk them up with my experience with said system but as far as being a salesman, it does not interest me.
I have far too much mechanical work to deal with to be out there trying to sell a system that ultimately sells itself.
I know that my customers are more than satisfied from what I can tell and that is enough for me.
If any of them had a gripe with the conversion I would be sure to sort out anything they are worried about quick smart.
Like I said I am not here to chase work merely provide information relating to something I know a bit about.

[mmciau]

blownba,

It's not you that is failing to communicate and offer best advice - it is the manufacturer/distributor that is less than forthcoming with the advantages and proof of their claims!

We know you are busy installing systems but it not your responsibility to defend the manufacturer/distributor for their lack of data.


Mike

[Runninglean]

Oh, BTW - you can get dual-table ECM chips from many reputable manufacturers such as CHipTorque. They have the petrol operation on one side, and at the flick of the switch (or wire them so it changes over when you change fuels as we did back in '93 on a guinea pig EB Falcon we bought brand new to carry out tests and experiements on) it activates the LPG side which has a completely different set of settings for LPG. Works very well - COME Racing have had them for many years but not for LPG operation.

Apparently my (VZ 5.7l) factory management system is unable to be modified to run two separate tunes.:bawl:

[Ben Lee]

You boys have had a lot of fun lately....... well done,

We haven’t had the time to talk much about this product on the forum and as we are not sponsors the moderators may pull the thread.

Fuel Consumption

In regards to fuel consumption discussions, we are very pleased with results we have received from the field. In all reports the JTG system is more fuel efficient than any other vapour injection system that we have seen.

Our technical team is rapidly developing new applications and all of these results are consistent from vehicle to vehicle.

Testing of the System

This product has been well tested globally, in America (OEM Roush (http://www.propanetruck.us/index.php)) and across Europe (OEM Subaru). We have tested this system for 2 years before selling it in the Australian market! We have it on a taxi that has now performed over 200,000km and still driving well and has not been touched since conversion.

We believe we test our systems more thoroughly than other companies in Australia. We do not use our customers as guinne pigs (over 50,000 units sold worldwide to date).

Supply

We understand the frustrations in regards to supply. We have already presold shipments before they arrive. The demand is extreme. We try to dispatch all orders in the order that they are received, but in some cases we have not yet developed kits for specific vehicles so they will take longer. We apologise if anyone is still waiting for kits, but you can be sure that all of our guys are working as hard as possible.

Advertising

We do not advertise our system on this forum. It is the overwhelming interest from forum users that continues to drive this thread. All communication we have via this forum has been in response to questions from forum members.

System information

Forum contributors should not rely on just the forum alone to receive data from ALPGW. If they wish to obtain any information or have any concerns, just call their installer or contact us directly. This product is no different to any other consumer product. If you contact the outlets or distributer you get the information you require. ALPGW website (http://www.alpgw.com.au/JTG-Liquid-Injection.aspx)


Conclusion

The JTG Liquid system offers the following benefits:
1. Greatly Improved fuel consumption over other LPG systems
2. Improved power over other LPG systems
3. Less susceptible to contamination in LPG

[Highway]

You boys have had a lot of fun lately....... well done,

We haven’t had the time to talk much about this product on the forum and as we are not sponsors the moderators may pull the thread.

Fuel Consumption

In regards to fuel consumption discussions, we are very pleased with results we have received from the field. In all reports the JTG system is more fuel efficient than any other vapour injection system that we have seen.

Our technical team is rapidly developing new applications and all of these results are consistent from vehicle to vehicle.

Testing of the System

This product has been well tested globally, in America (OEM Roush (http://www.propanetruck.us/index.php)) and across Europe (OEM Subaru). We have tested this system for 2 years before selling it in the Australian market! We have it on a taxi that has now performed over 200,000km and still driving well and has not been touched since conversion.

We believe we test our systems more thoroughly than other companies in Australia. We do not use our customers as guinne pigs (over 50,000 units sold worldwide to date).

Supply

We understand the frustrations in regards to supply. We have already presold shipments before they arrive. The demand is extreme. We try to dispatch all orders in the order that they are received, but in some cases we have not yet developed kits for specific vehicles so they will take longer. We apologise if anyone is still waiting for kits, but you can be sure that all of our guys are working as hard as possible.

Advertising

We do not advertise our system on this forum. It is the overwhelming interest from forum users that continues to drive this thread. All communication we have via this forum has been in response to questions from forum members.

System information

Forum contributors should not rely on just the forum alone to receive data from ALPGW. If they wish to obtain any information or have any concerns, just call their installer or contact us directly. This product is no different to any other consumer product. If you contact the outlets or distributer you get the information you require. ALPGW website (http://www.alpgw.com.au/JTG-Liquid-Injection.aspx)


Conclusion

The JTG Liquid system offers the following benefits:
1. Greatly Improved fuel consumption over other LPG systems
2. Improved power over other LPG systems
3. Less susceptible to contamination in LPG

Thanks for the input Ben.

My car has gone beyond the day the liquid system was to be installed.

Are the parts now available for fitting to a VE 6ltre Wagon ?

Can I get a wheel well tank of 80 ltres approximately or just the smaller 60-65 ltres ?

Thanks again
Mike

[mmciau]

Ben Lee

Thank you for your data

Mike

[scorpiojragon]

Hello all. Have followed this from day dot. Still wondering about installer info over here in WA. Can anyone help. Want my VE 6L HDT Improved Malloo converted with forced induction in mind. Thank you all for a very ''days of our lives'' thread.

Regards,

MALOON8IK. :confused:

[blownba]

There are a chain of shops in WA that are authorised to fit JTG. I forget what the name of it is, but apparently they are big with 12 stores or the like. I will get back to you on that.

[pk2k78]

You boys have had a lot of fun lately....... well done,

We haven’t had the time to talk much about this product on the forum and as we are not sponsors the moderators may pull the thread.

Fuel Consumption

In regards to fuel consumption discussions, we are very pleased with results we have received from the field. In all reports the JTG system is more fuel efficient than any other vapour injection system that we have seen.

Our technical team is rapidly developing new applications and all of these results are consistent from vehicle to vehicle.

Testing of the System

This product has been well tested globally, in America (OEM Roush (http://www.propanetruck.us/index.php)) and across Europe (OEM Subaru). We have tested this system for 2 years before selling it in the Australian market! We have it on a taxi that has now performed over 200,000km and still driving well and has not been touched since conversion.

We believe we test our systems more thoroughly than other companies in Australia. We do not use our customers as guinne pigs (over 50,000 units sold worldwide to date).

Supply

We understand the frustrations in regards to supply. We have already presold shipments before they arrive. The demand is extreme. We try to dispatch all orders in the order that they are received, but in some cases we have not yet developed kits for specific vehicles so they will take longer. We apologise if anyone is still waiting for kits, but you can be sure that all of our guys are working as hard as possible.

Advertising

We do not advertise our system on this forum. It is the overwhelming interest from forum users that continues to drive this thread. All communication we have via this forum has been in response to questions from forum members.

System information

Forum contributors should not rely on just the forum alone to receive data from ALPGW. If they wish to obtain any information or have any concerns, just call their installer or contact us directly. This product is no different to any other consumer product. If you contact the outlets or distributer you get the information you require. ALPGW website (http://www.alpgw.com.au/JTG-Liquid-Injection.aspx)


Conclusion

The JTG Liquid system offers the following benefits:
1. Greatly Improved fuel consumption over other LPG systems
2. Improved power over other LPG systems
3. Less susceptible to contamination in LPG

Hi Ben,

The original claims were consumption within 5% of petrol and improved power over petrol. These are the reasons I bought the system.

Are these claims no longer accurate?

[pierrek]

Mat, Ive been running JTG for several weeks initally had some issues now power & fuel cunsumption both have met expectations My installer has been excellent I trust yours can fix yours to your satisfaction

[Lunchbox]

Hi Ben,

The original claims were consumption within 5% of petrol and improved power over petrol. These are the reasons I bought the system.

Are these claims no longer accurate?


Just wondering where the claims are that it's within 5% of petrol?? I've been trying to chase down as many reviews as i can as i'm thinking of getting the JTG kit fitted to my car. All i can find is the claims that it will use up to 14% less than other gas systems and use 10 - 15% more gas compared to petrol per kilometre.

Cheers, Lunchbox.

[perryr]

Just wondering where the claims are that it's within 5% of petrol?? I've been trying to chase down as many reviews as i can as i'm thinking of getting the JTG kit fitted to my car. All i can find is the claims that it will use up to 14% less than other gas systems and use 10 - 15% more gas compared to petrol per kilometre.

Cheers, Lunchbox.

Ben put the 5% figure on the first page of this thread:

"The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy."

I've also seen it mentioned on at least one installer's web site.

[loudvtss]

The claims were made in Post #8 in this thread...


Gday Guys,

I am the Australian LPG Warehouse's Managing Engineer.
.....
.....
The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy.

[Dr.Gas]

Hello all. Have followed this from day dot. Still wondering about installer info over here in WA. Can anyone help. Want my VE 6L HDT Improved Malloo converted with forced induction in mind. Thank you all for a very ''days of our lives'' thread.

Regards,

MALOON8IK. :confused:

Contact GASPOWER in PERTH they have 12 shops in various location and have been trained to install JTG.

Cheers:)

[APS Fston]

If you need questions answered that concern you contact Mick on 0414 458 768.

[Lunchbox]

Ben put the 5% figure on the first page of this thread:

"The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy."

I've also seen it mentioned on at least one installer's web site.

Sweet. Seems my searching skills aren't exactly that great. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info.

Cheers, Lunchbox.

[scorpiojragon]

Cheers guys. Really want to do it right the first time. Im not sure if im allowed to ask this but can anyone vouch for GASPOWER and the aforementioned and their experience with this potentially awesome product. Have a heavy workload and use my ute for work everyday and want to minimise downtime, obviously.

I appreciate greatly everyones input throughout this forum, it has helped me endlessly in researching products for hard earned crust. +1 Holden +1 HSV +1KNOWLEDGE.

[ls2 cruiser]

Howdy, I just read the whole thread and found it very informative. I am fitting a ls2 into a 79 series cruiser ute with 4l60e auto. I am running the ls1 computer and hopefully liquid injection only and no petrol. There seem to only be 2 installers around Brisbane so there may be a wait. Thanks for the info
Russ

Does anyone know of an installer who is actually installing in Brisbane?

[ls2 cruiser]

Thanks for your help Dr Gas. I will certainly be having the liquid injection installed on my new conversion. More power and less fuel usage and less cost sounds great to me Thanks Russ

[kesa322]

My wh statesman is getting done atm........went the donut tank to keep the boot space at max , 51 usable litres so l'll be refilling a bit more than normally but thats ok , plenty of outlets around these days :thumbsup:

l went this system mainly for the efficiency and reliability gains over convertor/vapour systems , power gain is a nice bonus too hey .
In regards to efficiency with the gen3 what mods can help to get better milage? .........l'm not really concerned about more output , just getting it tweaked to get the best milage it is capable of would be great .
Also could anyone here reccommend a camber/toe kit that will hold its adjustments ? l've been told by a few guys up here that they have issues with them going out of whack if you instal both camber and toe kits together ......any comments on this would be apreciated as l have to do somthing to stop the rear tyres scrubbing out prematurely

cheers ken

[VW Golf R32]

October 2010.

[stevet]

R32

October 2010?

I have been following this thread with interest and am not sure what you mean by October 2010. Is that when Holden is going to release their liquid injection Commodore?

stevet

[kesa322]

Hi, got my statesman back today, going really well , it'll be intresting to see what my gas usage will pan out at.....atm its telling me l'm using 12.5 L / 100k's traveling to work which is better than l was getting on petrol ( 13.5 ).
So either my computer is not working correctly while on gas or l'm going to be a very happy convert........l've taken down my k's manually and will run the tank out a few times and see how it's looking on average

ken

[nvous1]

Hi, got my statesman back today, going really well , it'll be intresting to see what my gas usage will pan out at.....atm its telling me l'm using 12.5 L / 100k's traveling to work which is better than l was getting on petrol ( 13.5 ).
So either my computer is not working correctly while on gas or l'm going to be a very happy convert........l've taken down my k's manually and will run the tank out a few times and see how it's looking on average

ken

You will find your computer is out. Mine reads 11L/100 when in reality its 14L/100.

[kesa322]

Damn thought it was too good to be true , l 'll have a good idea how far out it is in a couple of weeks or so what are you running system/engine wise nvous1?

ken

[blownba]

The trip computer is mearly looking at injection rates and calculating from there.
trhe fact that your is saying it is lower than petrol means that the ECU is seeing richer mix coming from the gas injectors that what it would see from the same injection times from petrol SO it is pulling fuel out of the map, as seen by STFT % to get the right reading from oxy sensor. Therefore the trip computer looks at the MS times of the injection and thinks it is running lean cause the ECU is closing up the injectors a bit to compensate for the gas injectors delivering too much gas.
So the end of all this is that the combo of injectors and calibrater is not correct and your fitter needs to be notified.

[kesa322]

Hi blownba , l'm on nightshift atm so bear with me please ( severe lack of sleep :doh: lol ) on the way home from work this morining it was reading 13l/100k's .........in total all l've done is around 60 k's total , in regards to the system maybe running too rich , are'nt they calibrated to suit the motors they're installed to before instalation even happens ? ( thought l read that somewhere here )
l had to wait an extra few days as it was as the kit came with injectors to suit a 6 ltr not a 5.7 , sooo l'm presuming all was right in the end ......what can they do to rectifiy mixtures running a bit out of whack if this is the case mate ? also the ecu might be settling in a bit too? as they had disconnected the battery etc during the instal so maybe it has to relearn a bit...........when l first picked it up it was saying it was using 20 l /100ks then l reset the trip meter later on and gave it a quick squirt and it seemed to settle down into these readings l'm currently getting.

l'll have a chat to the installers soon and see if they can help out at all.

cheers ken

[pierrek]

blown ba knows his stuff go see your installer after a few tank fulls as everything beds calibrators may need tweaking.

[blownba]

easy enough to rectify.
All they need to do is check what the short term fuel trims are doing when on gas.
Its really not that hard to sort. you need to remember that not all engines are the same. the gus endevour to place the correct calibrater and injector combo so that overall fuel requirements are the same as what petrol injectors deliver.
See how you go over the next few tanks of gas. You may find it is spot on.
And if the gas is delivering too much or too little it will throw a code anyway and bring the check engine light on. If it does not do this, I wouldn't worry too much as the Petrol ECU can adjust things easily and even 5% difference between petrol and gas is deemed acceptable cause it is still well withing the petrol ECU's capacity to control easily with no ill effects. But it may throw the L/100kms, but its not accurate when running gas anyway, even when you dont see a difference between gas and petrol.

[kesa322]

No worries mate , l'll just cruise along and see how she pans out..........power wise its easily equal or better than petrol :)
l notice some injector type noise near the back of the motor at idle , l read further back in this thread about the lines making noise if near the firewall, but mine appear to be ok in that regard.........when l finish doing nightshift l'll look into it further....not really worried about it just curious as to what it is.
Yeah l'm not getting any fault lights coming on and she seems to be sitting in the 13 ltrs/100k range now while driving around atm......seems stable in that regard, whether thats close or not who knows , but all in all l'm happy with the system.

cheers ken

[caliente]

Hi - in response to the previous poster regarding GASPOWER in perth, I converted my Prado 4L V6 to Sequential Vapour about a year ago.

It was done in one of the franchise stores that shall remain nameless and there was a lot of issues before my system was running properly, almost 6 months and 10+ visits to the dealer before the bugs were worked out.

My advice is if you're going with GASPOWER to go not to the franchise stores but DIRECT to the one in the city, I believe it's on Newcastle St.

The bloke there is top quality and worked through the problem with me to get it fixed, even though it took a few goes.

The issue was one of a sensor malfunction (there are three main sensors in the system, no one thought to check this third one that was causing all the drama).

System is working really well for me. I get about 20L/100 on LPG average opposed to 15L/100 on Petrol average, so about 30% more LPG for the same distance.

Still that is the equivalent of 90cents/Litre to petrol which is sure better than $1.30 =)

As for Liquid Injection I am jealous that you get to try it out - please report back on your results, I'm interested to see real world figures as to how the new system is performing, there doesn't seem to be enough out there sharing!!!

Cheers
-Cali

[T2000]

Hi - in response to the previous poster regarding GASPOWER in perth, I converted my Prado 4L V6 to Sequential Vapour about a year ago.

It was done in one of the franchise stores that shall remain nameless and there was a lot of issues before my system was running properly, almost 6 months and 10+ visits to the dealer before the bugs were worked out.

My advice is if you're going with GASPOWER to go not to the franchise stores but DIRECT to the one in the city, I believe it's on Newcastle St.

The bloke there is top quality and worked through the problem with me to get it fixed, even though it took a few goes.

The issue was one of a sensor malfunction (there are three main sensors in the system, no one thought to check this third one that was causing all the drama).

System is working really well for me. I get about 20L/100 on LPG average opposed to 15L/100 on Petrol average, so about 30% more LPG for the same distance.

Still that is the equivalent of 90cents/Litre to petrol which is sure better than $1.30 =)

As for Liquid Injection I am jealous that you get to try it out - please report back on your results, I'm interested to see real world figures as to how the new system is performing, there doesn't seem to be enough out there sharing!!!

Cheers
-Cali


Hey Cali,

More than willing to share :)

I pick up my Liquid Injected L98 VE, tomorrow.
I will then be doing a 3500km road trip.
Lots of sharing when I get back. (2 WEEKS)
Inspecting the installation over the last couple of days... and :bow::bow::bow:.
THE SYSTEM LOOK AWESOME!

I will post some pics tomorrow.
Donut tank in the boot etc!
:)

[Calais V 6.0]

Hey Cali,

More than willing to share :)

I pick up my Liquid Injected L98 VE, tomorrow.
I will then be doing a 3500km road trip.
Lots of sharing when I get back. (2 WEEKS)
Inspecting the installation over the last couple of days... and :bow::bow::bow:.
THE SYSTEM LOOK AWESOME!

I will post some pics tomorrow.
Donut tank in the boot etc!
:)


I look forward to seeing those picks mate. I have 2 odd weeks to wait for my install! Cant wait for the road trip down to Melbourne from Sydney. All part of the fun!

[ls2 cruiser]

To Australian LPG Warehouse, I know you are extremely busy but we need installers on the north side of Brisbane urgently. The injectors in my Ls2 are different to a L98 6litre so do you do a different clone for the ls2 injectors?

[kesa322]

Hey fellas, just a quick observation , so far l seem to be roughly getting around 15.2 litres / 100ks around town / and short country runs in and out ( 20k mixed speed ) so pretty good really, l have to take it back soon as l'm having a bit of a shitty start when its cold otherwise it starts fine when its warmed up ........ l reckon the whole setup can still be made to get even better economy with a good tune and maybe a couple of mods, though they maybe a waste of money for someone like me as l dont drive hard , anyway pretty happy so far, be interesting to see how others go with theirs.

ken

[ratter]

Doesn't your car still start on petrol and then switch to gas when the purge time has been met?

[blownba]

The hard start will settle down with time, trust me. It takes a little time for the injectors to bed a perfect seat into them, so it will weep a tiny, tiny amount of gas over the space of numerous hours and this stays in the manifold till you start it making it crank slightly longer than usual. This is totally normal and will settle down after a few weeks.
I have a heap of Turbo falcons and N/A 6 cyl Falcons under my belt now and a 6.0L VE and so far, touch wood, everyone has been wrapped. I am seeing some incredible fuel economy figures from my customers, from around 4% more than PULP to about 19% being the worst, but I think that guy just loves sticking his boot into it now cause he has a ton of more torque on Gas.
Had a really good run with JTG and I am happy with the stuff. It has met and totally stomped my expectations with its performance.
It is certainly the best thing to happen to gas since.... well since EVER!!!!!

I LOVE JTG!!!!

[kesa322]

Doesn't your car still start on petrol and then switch to gas when the purge time has been met?

yes thats right, goes for about a minute on petrol then changes over.

Hey Blownba, that does make sense as it seemed liked it was slightly flooded when cold starting.......is there anyway to get the program to start and run on gas only? , l realize the system needs time to purge vapour out etc but the dedicated systems can do this , can ours?
The reason l ask is l seem to be adding petrol as well as gas at fill ups to keep it off the fuel warrning alarm/light ( say for every 40 litres of gas l add $5 petrol ) ....as l've only done all this a couple of times so far l could be worrying about nothing, but l thought just starting on petrol only would use bugger all compared to a tank of gas?
As l've only had the system on for 2 weeks it's still probably too early to make accurate assumptions yet , so this is why l thought l'd put it up on here to see how other peoples petrol usage goes for start up onlys as many have had their systems running longer than mine ,and also you as an instaler might have some knowlege on this...........be great if we can go straight gas and just run petrol manually when we need to .

cheers ken

[Highway]

The hard start will settle down with time, trust me. It takes a little time for the injectors to bed a perfect seat into them, so it will weep a tiny, tiny amount of gas over the space of numerous hours and this stays in the manifold till you start it making it crank slightly longer than usual. This is totally normal and will settle down after a few weeks.
I have a heap of Turbo falcons and N/A 6 cyl Falcons under my belt now and a 6.0L VE and so far, touch wood, everyone has been wrapped. I am seeing some incredible fuel economy figures from my customers, from around 4% more than PULP to about 19% being the worst, but I think that guy just loves sticking his boot into it now cause he has a ton of more torque on Gas.
Had a really good run with JTG and I am happy with the stuff. It has met and totally stomped my expectations with its performance.
It is certainly the best thing to happen to gas since.... well since EVER!!!!!

I LOVE JTG!!!!

Hi blownba,

Everything is looking good for the liquid.

Mine is to be fitted up in the next week or so.

Do you know what sort of results the fords/ VE 6ltrs are getting after separate tunes for gas and petrol ?

Always good to hear your input on the JTG systems !!

Geez the support brackets for the VE wheel well tanks look well engineered and strong.

Mike

[pierrek]

yes thats right, goes for about a minute on petrol then changes over.

Hey Blownba, that does make sense as it seemed liked it was slightly flooded when cold starting.......is there anyway to get the program to start and run on gas only? , l realize the system needs time to purge vapour out etc but the dedicated systems can do this , can ours?
The reason l ask is l seem to be adding petrol as well as gas at fill ups to keep it off the fuel warrning alarm/light ( say for every 40 litres of gas l add $5 petrol ) ....as l've only done all this a couple of times so far l could be worrying about nothing, but l thought just starting on petrol only would use bugger all compared to a tank of gas?
As l've only had the system on for 2 weeks it's still probably too early to make accurate assumptions yet , so this is why l thought l'd put it up on here to see how other peoples petrol usage goes for start up onlys as many have had their systems running longer than mine ,and also you as an instaler might have some knowlege on this...........be great if we can go straight gas and just run petrol manually when we need to .

cheers ken

Kessa,
If you run gas only purge time is about 3 seconds.
So far I found I've used about 7ltr petrol to 200 Ltr of gas to cover startup not very accurate at this stage

Regards Pierre

[pk2k78]

Kessa,
If you run gas only purge time is about 3 seconds.
So far I found I've used about 7ltr petrol to 200 Ltr of gas to cover startup not very accurate at this stage

Regards Pierre

Yeah I'm using about the same amount of petrol for startups, maybe a little more.

I hear that the purge time can be reduced to 30 secs or less with some recalibration.

Is anyone else getting a flat spot taking off firmly when cold?

[kesa322]

Yeah, l'll contact the installer up here soon and see if the petrol startup time can be reduced/omitted . Also if you run straight gas you don't get as much wear on startups too due to petrol washing.

regards ken

[drnick]

Hey all, have been following this thread with much interest.

Looking at replacing my current 220kw Forester XT with a VE V8 (not sure which one, either a 2007 SS or Calais).

Anyways, I know I could call an installer but I know they are very busy. Thought I would pick the brains here. :)

My few questions (based on being in Victoria) -

What is the general install cost? (much over $5k?)
What is the general lead time for install? (6-8 weeks?)
Looking at the spare wheel well tank, what happens with the spare? (tyre in a can?)

Cheers all, looking to go shopping for a car this weekend.

S

[mrtockley]

Hey all, have been following this thread with much interest.

Looking at replacing my current 220kw Forester XT with a VE V8 (not sure which one, either a 2007 SS or Calais).

Anyways, I know I could call an installer but I know they are very busy. Thought I would pick the brains here. :)

My few questions (based on being in Victoria) -

What is the general install cost? (much over $5k?)
What is the general lead time for install? (6-8 weeks?)
Looking at the spare wheel well tank, what happens with the spare? (tyre in a can?)

Cheers all, looking to go shopping for a car this weekend.

S

I too am looking to do the install as soon as possible as well, but I too have a couple of questions. Now that some forum members have had their gas installs for a while, what is the (rough) ammount of kays you guys are getting out of your doughnut tanks?

Also, I've just had an exhaust, OTR and tune done to my SS. Will I get the benefit of the tune I've just had with the new LIgas install or do you have to have another whole tune? I've heard that the gas injectors use the pulse from the petrol injectors so now that mine (I assume) have been changed, does that bugger anything up? I also heard that you can get Gas 'specific' tunes to the tune of around $1,200 or so which I'd be very hesitant to as I've just spent a bit getting my car tuned for the exhaust etc. Sorry, I have no idea how it all works when it comes to Liquid Gas and mods.

Cheers,

Kris.

[lumina ss]

you guys are lucky I booked my car in 4 month ago, still no joy

[drnick]

you guys are lucky I booked my car in 4 month ago, still no joy

That does not sound too good then.

S

[kesa322]

Hi drnick, , l got a "donut" tank in my wh statesmen , the spare wheel is in the shed atm , it was just sitting in the boot , l'm going to buy a can of tyre punture stuff soon rather than cart the spare around..........my instal was $4700 and l only had to wait 2 weeks ( l was very lucky as he had one gen3 kit in stock).......normal waiting time is 2-3 months up here...depending on system supply etc

kris, l'm getting roughly 15litres /100 k's so far with around town use ( avg 46kph ).........your car should respond well to a conversion mate.......

gotta go to work....sorry

ken

[drnick]

Cheers for the reply Ken.

S

[mrtockley]

Cheers Ken for the reply too.

Kris.

[loudvtss]

you guys are lucky I booked my car in 4 month ago, still no joy

That seems to be one of the problems. I ordered my kit 4 months ago also. I've been calling my installer and the ALPGW. Was told it would be in 2 weeks a month ago. I called them and 2 weeks ago I was told it should be here this week and nothing. Will wait until Friday and give them another call.

[lumina ss]

the trouble is reading here there seems to be some sort of deal going to certain installers, some poeple seem to think about getting it installed and hey presto, others are on the slow boat to china.

[pierrek]

Yeah I'm using about the same amount of petrol for startups, maybe a little more.

I hear that the purge time can be reduced to 30 secs or less with some recalibration.

Is anyone else getting a flat spot taking off firmly when cold?

Yes had the flat spot installer sorted this changed calibrators much better


I too am looking to do the install as soon as possible as well, but I too have a couple of questions. Now that some forum members have had their gas installs for a while, what is the (rough) ammount of kays you guys are getting out of your doughnut tanks?

Also, I've just had an exhaust, OTR and tune done to my SS. Will I get the benefit of the tune I've just had with the new LIgas install or do you have to have another whole tune? I've heard that the gas injectors use the pulse from the petrol injectors so now that mine (I assume) have been changed, does that bugger anything up? I also heard that you can get Gas 'specific' tunes to the tune of around $1,200 or so which I'd be very hesitant to as I've just spent a bit getting my car tuned for the exhaust etc. Sorry, I have no idea how it all works when it comes to Liquid Gas and mods.

Cheers,

Kris.
How well your tune works depends on skill of your tuner if petrol tune is right then gas is calibrated to suit(should be done by installer). gas specific tune will make minor differances but then petrol tune will suffer by small amount as well

[mrtockley]

How well your tune works depends on skill of your tuner if petrol tune is right then gas is calibrated to suit(should be done by installer). gas specific tune will make minor differances but then petrol tune will suffer by small amount as well

Cheers mate,

Kris

[Highway]

Yes had the flat spot installer sorted this changed calibrators much better


How well your tune works depends on skill of your tuner if petrol tune is right then gas is calibrated to suit(should be done by installer). gas specific tune will make minor differances but then petrol tune will suffer by small amount as well

I was going to wait until the Liquid Gas is installed before getting a separate tune for the gas and petrol.

Should this result in the best possible tune for both gas and petrol ?

Or is it better to get a tune for the petrol now and a touchup after the gas is installed ?

Anyone know which way is the best option.

Mike

[Lunchbox]

Is there a specific kit for a VX LS1 or do they just fit a universal kit??

I just can't find a specific kit on the ALPGW website.

Cheers, Lunchbox.

[kesa322]

Is there a specific kit for a VX LS1 or do they just fit a universal kit??

I just can't find a specific kit on the ALPGW website.

Cheers, Lunchbox.

hey lunchbox, its the same kit as mine, all 5.7litres should be the same

cheers ken

[Lunchbox]

hey lunchbox, its the same kit as mine, all 5.7litres should be the same

cheers ken

Thanks kesa. Could you possibly pm me how much yours cost??

Cheers, Lunchbox.

[kesa322]

yep , l posted on the previous page the cost etc,

cheers ken

[Steve-LS2]

Hey all,

I mean no offense to anyone in the LPG Industry but can i please say that with the current price of petrol going down and the inherent value of the $ in wallets going up an LiLPG install costing anywhere north of 5K is way too much and the time to 'make your money back' will be just far too long.

Especially with the price of petrol being less than $1.20 at the low point in Melbourne this week and the price of LPG going down and with the news reports of Petrol going below a dollar by the new year. For the JTG system to compete 'I' think it will have to come down in price, somewhere down to the $3.5K range.

Anyway, my 2 cents. :)

Cheers

Steve

[ls2 cruiser]

I was talking to Wedmaiers Garage at Riverview near Brisbane and was told they cannot get install kits from ALPGW. They have people waiting to install including myself and were told by ALPGW that pirates got them. It sounds like a bit of bull to me. They dont reply to emails as well. I will keep forum members informed.

[loudvtss]

I am still waiting. Twice I've been told my kit will arrive in 2 weeks and is in the next shipment. I was supposed to get my kit last week and nothing. Almost 5 month wait. With the price of petrol coming down I am thinking twice about fitting LPG. I might wait for the kits to be actually available instead of waiting forever. Also they might iron out any issues..

[Calais V 6.0]

Well its been a while since the first conversions were done... Have we got any updated reviews on the all-round performance of the system guys? I am not looking for a slanging match on the fuel efficiency, just want to know how you are liking the system from a day to day perspective...


Cheers

[greencut]

I've had liquid now for 2 months and once it was correctly calibrated it has been absolutely flawless. It starts perfectly, runs very smooth with plenty of power and has no flat spots at all. Fuel economy wise we're averaging around 19-20 ltrs/100km around town. This sounds horrendous but consists of short school runs average speed around 30km/hr....before we were getting about 17-18l/100km. The only highway run I've done returned 12.2lt/100km. The only negative I can think of is the tank is annoyingly small....48lt gets us between just 200-250km. I guess thats the trade off with keeping the boot space. After the conversion I had a custom tune and catback, so it puts out 235.8 rwkw making it very enjoyable to drive. Now I have the urge to finish off the difillipo system with extractors and cats.......the wife insists on it.:)

[kesa322]

gidday calias v 6.0 , yeah liking mine so far mate , you really forget its on gas as it drives much the same as petrol....no miss fire or any other hiccups.......just purrs along.
The only problem l have had, and it was'nt the gas's fault , was when my fuel (petrol ) pump decided to shit itself , taking out the fuse ,which powers the gas system as well, so l ended up on the side of the road as l didnt realise the two were ran that way...........all l knew was l went to take off at a roadworks sign and the car died, my jtg gauge was dead and l when l checked the fuses on the gas wiring they were fine, l then rang the installers and they sent a tilt tray , l later found out the cause..never even thought of the petrol side of things causing it as l was on gas at the time, and l could'nt get out the cars original fuses with my fingers , but everything was still working.......just would'nt start.....lesson learnt!

cheers ken

l'm going to look into getting it wired differently so as to be able to run seperately if l lose a fuel source , l also rang ben lee and made some queries in this regard and he mentioned that you should be able to turn on your key on and without starting the motor let the gas do its cycle until the orange gas light comes on and then be able to start directly on gas .......l tried this but as soon as my petrol pump reached pressure it stopped and so did the gas cycling, nothing then happens until the engine is started , returing it back to active cycling again.....if l had seperate power for the gas then this would have worked ( just a hint for those interested in starting and running on gas only)

[255-LS1]

green cut sounds good who did your install and calibration?

[greencut]

A.P.S in Frankston.

[pk2k78]

I've had mine for a while now. It does drive great.

I agree the donut tank can be annoying. 48 litres means I have to fill up twice a week. I get about 350- 380kms out of a tank.

Does anyone have issues with auto switch over to petrol when gas runs out? ie stalling?

[Calais V 6.0]

Thanks to kesa322, Greencut and PK2K78 for your replies!

I am really looking forward to the conversion. Going in on the 1st Dec at APS. I'll let you know how she goes one I drive her back from Melbourne to Sydney.

Thanks again!

[Highway]

Mine is getting fitted next Monday after a long wait of course.

Can't wait to get it installed and tuned.

Car is stock but I will probably get a before dyno(Petrol and Gas) and after as well.

Mike

[NUMNUTS]

This subject is a topic in another forum and and this link was posted comparing vapour injection with liquid injection

http://spl-inha.re.kr/Public_PDF/Intake%20flow%20observation%20with%20gaseous%20LPG %20injection%20in%20a%20SI%20engine.pdf

The engineering paper concludes that there is little or no advantage in liquid injection over vapour. What do the members of this forum think?

[mrtockley]

This subject is a topic in another forum and and this link was posted comparing vapour injection with liquid injection

http://spl-inha.re.kr/Public_PDF/Intake%20flow%20observation%20with%20gaseous%20LPG %20injection%20in%20a%20SI%20engine.pdf

The engineering paper concludes that there is little or no advantage in liquid injection over vapour. What do the members of this forum think?

I just finished reading that paper and it was very interesting indeed... The only issue that I saw was that the paper was written in 2005 and I'm not sure how that technology compares with the systems being installed today. That and the fact that the test was down in Korea and whether or not the conditions and standards are the same as here ..

Cheers,

Tock.

[kesa322]

Interesting , the only flaw l could see is that the motor was'nt actually running ( combusting ) , which l presume would alter the intake draw again compared to the way they tested it, whether that'd alter the differences much between the 2 systems tested is debatable
Also over here our injectors, both vapour and liquid, are not directly connected to the manifold like theirs ( and our petrol injectors) , l presume directly fixed into the manifold would be a better method in regards to accuracy of injection

cheers ken

[loudvtss]

This liquid injection is a joke. I've waited 5 months while others are getting their kits. My installer hasn't received 1 kit even being one of the first qualified installers. Kits are being installed interstate but he hasn't received one. I just called ALPGW and asked for an update and was told to ring back in 10 days. That's disgraceful. I'm spending $5,000 and that's the customer service I get. What's the service going to be after the kit is installed and they have my money. I was told 4 weeks ago that my kit would arrive in 2 weeks. No follow up communication and when I try and get an update I get the rudest prick and that's how they treat there prospective customers. I'm over it. A long wait, no customer service, pricks working for ALPGW and people getting up to 30% increased economy, noisy injectors etc etc etc... All the benefits are crap and no customer service. Anyone looking for LPG should go vapour, proven system and no issues.

[VILLAIN]

I think with the price of petrol now (110.9 p/l) why would you bother, it would take forever to get your 3k back.

[michaels1v8]

Yeah petrol is cheap.... for now. But what about when it rises again

The smart people will get in now whilst there is probably less demand for installs. Then when the price starts going up again and people complain about the waiting list they can just smile and drive :)

You will recover your money eventually if you plan on keeping your car for a few years so why not

[255-LS1]

loudvtss who was going to do your install

[PoweredByCNG]

I think with the price of petrol now (110.9 p/l) why would you bother, it would take forever to get your 3k back.

You'd recoup the $3000 in less than 4 years if you drive 20,000km per annum using LPG 85% of the time.

Assuming 12L/100km for petrol and 14L/100km for LPG:

PETROL: ((20000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06 = $2544
DUAL FUEL: (((17000 / 100) * 14) * 0.579) + (((3000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06) = 1378.02 + 381.6 = $1759.62
SAVINGS per ANNUM: 2544 - 1759.62 = 784.38

Don't forget that a good LPG system also adds resale value to your car.

Regards,
Dave

[loudvtss]

You'd recoup the $3000 in less than 4 years if you drive 20,000km per annum using LPG 85% of the time.

Assuming 12L/100km for petrol and 14L/100km for LPG:

PETROL: ((20000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06 = $2544
DUAL FUEL: (((17000 / 100) * 14) * 0.579) + (((3000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06) = 1378.02 + 381.6 = $1759.62
SAVINGS per ANNUM: 2544 - 1759.62 = 784.38

Don't forget that a good LPG system also adds resale value to your car.

Regards,
Dave


Add to this the extra servicing costs, the time to fix the know issues they're having. Also why the extra 2 litres of gas? People are reporting extra 30% which would mean 15 - 16L/100km for LPG... It would be more like 4 years.


loudvtss who was going to do your install

It's one of the original published installers that hasn't received my kit in the 5 months. No communication as to when it's going to arrive... With petrol at $1.10 I'm going to wait. I can't be bothered with the shit that comes from ALPGW and any savings now will be eroded by the time taken to fix the problems these kits seem to have. Also at the real world 30% increase in fuel usage plus other reported issues in this thread I will forego the saving of $20 per week to have my car running like it is. I think the only choice now is vapour, proven system and no issues. I think people need to look at this post carefully and decide which way to go. Proven system or a hyped system with no customer service. You're not spending a couple of hundred dollars. It's $5,000.00...

[pk2k78]

You'd recoup the $3000 in less than 4 years if you drive 20,000km per annum using LPG 85% of the time.

Assuming 12L/100km for petrol and 14L/100km for LPG:

PETROL: ((20000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06 = $2544
DUAL FUEL: (((17000 / 100) * 14) * 0.579) + (((3000 / 100) * 12) * 1.06) = 1378.02 + 381.6 = $1759.62
SAVINGS per ANNUM: 2544 - 1759.62 = 784.38

Don't forget that a good LPG system also adds resale value to your car.

Regards,
Dave

Maybe add to the equation interest you could have saved over 4 years by putting the $3K on your home loan?

[T2000]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to see some negative comments creeping in. :bawl:
Just thought I would pass on my fuel and mileage stats from my recent roadtrip/ holiday.
Suffice to say that I am really happy :smilesandbanana:

Install finished Saturday afternoon. Departed 36 hours later for a 3000km round trip (the ultimate challenge to LILPG reliability "out of the box")

Here are the figures:

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/other/fueleconomy.jpg

My ride is an 06 VE Berlina sedan (Gen4/ A6) with a ALPGW LILPG setup with Donut tank.
Oztrack engine & Auto tune, ORRSOM OTR - otherwise stock.
Wheels/tyres are SS-V 19's with OEM Potenza 255's all round.
Tyre pressure: 36 front, 40 rear.
Four occupants ... approx weight 300 kg
Luggage for two weeks in Tassie (lots of jeans/Jumpers & Jackets) ~ 150 kg
Petrol tank kept @ 1/3 with 98 octane ULP.

So the figures would definately be adversely affected by the additional weight! - BUT IMHO are still good numbers!

The usual gremlins were evident for the first 1500 - 2000 kms. (hard start, slow fill) BUT self rectified and did not add any inconvenience.

3000 kms completely fault free with good $$$ savings. (approx $300 just on this trip)

BIG :bow::bow::bow: to KURT at ALPGC in Wollongong for the awesome install and result.

My ride will go back to Kurt on Monday for a (slightly) overdue 1000 km service :confused:

I will post some pics and am happy to answer any questions.

In the next month or so I will be off to the Dyno and a touch-up tune... updates to follow.

Hope the info helps.

Cheers to all


Chris:)

[kesa322]

Good on ya chris:goodjob:

As l have stated previously l get a constant 15ish litres / 100k's out of my wh5.7 l statesman around town ....average speed is in the 40 odd k's per hour.
So like you l'm happy with the result, l intend to keep the car a long time so the payback period is ok with me.

Our other car is a 2005 2.0 tdi vw golf.....now we're talking frugal, it gets around 850k's out of 52 litres doing the same around town stuff.......only problem is the price of diesel :vpo: otherwise its a very good car with a lot of grunt

ken

[T2000]

Good on ya chris:goodjob:

As l have stated previously l get a constant 15ish litres / 100k's out of my wh5.7 l statesman around town ....average speed is in the 40 odd k's per hour.
So like you l'm happy with the result, l intend to keep the car a long time so the payback period is ok with me.

Our other car is a 2005 2.0 tdi vw golf.....now we're talking frugal, it gets around 850k's out of 52 litres doing the same around town stuff.......only problem is the price of diesel :vpo: otherwise its a very good car with a lot of grunt

ken

Hey Ken,

Great minds think alike!!!

My other ride is a Hyundai i30 turbo diesel.
Mid 5's per 100 k's is average consumption.
Love the torque of the Turbo Diesels
Interesting that the big Gen III / IV 's can get close to these little oilers when comparing $/ 100 km instead of L / 100 km when running on LPG!

Very eco & $ friendly households :eyes:

Like yourself I will probably keep my VE for between 5 & 10 years, so I will be reaping the benefit of my investment for many years to come!

Also interesting to note that some of the people who are knocking the LPG install have invested similar dollars on full exhaust or other mods... which do little for L/100 and only modest gains in RWKW. - Just an observation :1peek:
:stick:

Regards

Chris

[Wonky]

Just thought I would pass on my fuel and mileage stats from my recent roadtrip/ holiday.
Suffice to say that I am really happy :smilesandbanana:

Chris, great job but unfortunately with all the stats you did take you haven't included there the most important one which gives relevance to your litres per 100km figure and that is average speed. Given the variations I can induce in mine I personally find it difficult to place much credence on consumption figure unless average speeds are quoted hand in hand.

[T2000]

Chris, great job but unfortunately with all the stats you did take you haven't included there the most important one which gives relevance to your litres per 100km figure and that is average speed. Given the variations I can induce in mine I personally find it difficult to place much credence on consumption figure unless average speeds are quoted hand in hand.

Hey Wonky.... you're having a blonde moment mate.:confused:

5th column from the left (beside distance travelled) is "AVG Speed"
Hope that helps:)

Regards

Chris

[old holden V8]

Great data, Chris! :)

To get into the 12's will make a lot of the knockers sit up and take notice!

Question: Did you find - by seat of the pants - power (say overtaking) same, or down, compared to running on Petrol?

Cheers

Laurie.
:)

[T2000]

Great data, Chris! :)

To get into the 12's will make a lot of the knockers sit up and take notice!

Question: Did you find - by seat of the pants - power (say overtaking) same, or down, compared to running on Petrol?

Cheers

Laurie.
:)

G'day Laurie...

Mate it is smoother, quieter and definately STRONGER on gas.
I will hopefully get a chance to do a dyno run in the next couple of weeks, I am confident it will back up my "seat of the pants" readings.

Next private day I will definately be in. With perhaps a set of extractors and a touch up tune I would hope for (and expect) to see a 12.xx :)

Regards

Chris

[kesa322]

yeah l agree with chris in regards to the running aspects while on gas, with mine you can hear a little injector? noise at idle, otherwise nothing,

mine has to be dynoed as well as have its 1000k "service" (which was due 50 ks ago) atm it's costing me around $7.50 / 100k's in and out and around town running :)

ken

[Wonky]

Hey Wonky.... you're having a blonde moment mate.:confused:

5th column from the left (beside distance travelled) is "AVG Speed"
Hope that helps:)

Regards

Chris

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :nutkick:

Will teach me to post when I should be in bed fast asleep! :lol: Sorry Chris. :)

PS After reading the Asses thread I'd like a nice blonde too! :drool:

[T2000]

:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :nutkick:

Will teach me to post when I should be in bed fast asleep! :lol: Sorry Chris. :)

PS After reading the Asses thread I'd like a nice blonde too! :drool:

No worries Wonky, sounds like I need to go looking for the asses thread:1peek:.

How do those figures compare to yours?

[boyley]

Hi Guys,

Cheers to all


Chris:)

Hey Chris, I just realised you snobbed me in Tassie, wheres my deflector plate:bawl:

[T2000]

Hey Chris, I just realised you snobbed me in Tassie, wheres my deflector plate:bawl:

Sorry Boyley, during my barely sober moments... when I wasn't sampling Tasmanian Pies, Seafood and Beer... I did spare a thought for you.

Could have donated the deflector that is on my car ATM, but didn't have room to pack another one (2 weeks luggage and 2 women!).

I promise I will send you a Version 1.0 of the deflector plate - just PM me your address.

Tassie was a great place to visit, great people and Bakeries! It was very hectic though (we were travelling as a family of 16), so there wasn't any time for anthing which wasn't on the itenary. Else I would love to have had a beer with you!:)

What is with the price of LPG in Tasmania though! All fuel was expensive, but particularly LPG!:confused:

Are you considering an LILPG setup for the Calais?

Regards

Chris

[boyley]

Sorry Boyley, during my barely sober moments... when I wasn't sampling Tasmanian Pies, Seafood and Beer... I did spare a thought for you.

Could have donated the deflector that is on my car ATM, but didn't have room to pack another one (2 weeks luggage and 2 women!).

I promise I will send you a Version 1.0 of the deflector plate - just PM me your address.

Tassie was a great place to visit, great people and Bakeries! It was very hectic though (we were travelling as a family of 16), so there wasn't any time for anthing which wasn't on the itenary. Else I would love to have had a beer with you!:)

What is with the price of LPG in Tasmania though! All fuel was expensive, but particularly LPG!:confused:

Are you considering an LILPG setup for the Calais?

Regards

Chris

Thats cool mate I knew you had a hectic schedule. Yes Tasmania is the dearest state to live in by far. Fuel has just come down to 124.9 LPG was 0.80 last time I saw but we pay 0.17c premium for PULP.

I will eventually return the Calais to stock with a new donk. I plan on slotting the L98 into the ute, one day lol.

Address PM'd

Cheers Boyley

[Wonky]

How do those figures compare to yours?

I usually get around approx 15l/100km @ ave speed = 50kmh, 14l/100km @ ave = 60kmh, 13l/100km @ 70kmh and down to around mid 9s cruising at 100kmh (tuned A6 with 260+ rwkw on BP Ultimate).

[Plantagenet]

I made the move to liquid lpg last Friday got my converted stock mud flapped VZ V6 alloytec exec done at Ezy Gas Conversions. $4250.

I havent finished my first tank yet, but I am worried about the consumption to k's travelled. My dial is flicking between its last green bar and red and I have only travelled 273ks. I have a 76ltr boot tank...dont know what is usable cause have not filled up yet, but assuming its only 65ltr usable....:bawl:

All 273ks are suburban driving. Out of a tank of pet I was getting roughly 450ks and I never drive hard (approx 12-13lt/100km).

I am hoping for many things, mainly that the system needs to settle or they didnt fill my tank up completely or needs to be readjusted after 1000km or I have a leak...please something....

Also injectors make heaps of noise when bonet open...you can hear the difference inside the car when gas is on too (obviously not as loud though).

I have a proven track record for bad investments lately...hoping this is not another one.

[T2000]

I made the move to liquid lpg last Friday got my converted stock mud flapped VZ V6 alloytec exec done at Ezy Gas Conversions. $4250.

I havent finished my first tank yet, but I am worried about the consumption to k's travelled. My dial is flicking between its last green bar and red and I have only travelled 273ks. I have a 76ltr boot tank...dont know what is usable cause have not filled up yet, but assuming its only 65ltr usable....:bawl:

All 273ks are suburban driving. Out of a tank of pet I was getting roughly 450ks and I never drive hard (approx 12-13lt/100km).

I am hoping for many things, mainly that the system needs to settle or they didnt fill my tank up completely or needs to be readjusted after 1000km or I have a leak...please something....

Also injectors make heaps of noise when bonet open...you can hear the difference inside the car when gas is on too (obviously not as loud though).

I have a proven track record for bad investments lately...hoping this is not another one.

Hey mate...

The gauges in these things aren't terribly accurate...
In my case (50 litre donut), each light is about 9.5 litres.
Including the red!

Your tank is 76 ltr (water volume) meaning it is approx 61 usable litres. (76 x 80%)
Therefore I would assure that each of the 5 lights on your gauge would equal about 12 litres.

The last green flickering and red on probably indicates about 15L remaining.
Hopefully about 100 ks ???

What is you AVG speed according to trip computer ?

I wouldn't panic just yet...

Do a few tanks, let things settle down.

I am :confused: about your injector noise though! The 3 LILPG systems I have seen (& heard running) having completely silent injectors! - noticeably quieter than the Petrol Injectors!

Regards

Chris

[Plantagenet]

Thanks T2000 for the quick reply.

Well I only have 4 green lights on my indicator and 1 red.

I kinda figured that maybe, as the gas levels get lower, its free to move around more in the tank, so taking off the gas is pulled away from the senor or something.

I'll run it dry and see what I get. I would be happy with anything close to 400kms on my first tank...I really opted ofr this system for the better milage rather then power.

My injectors, well then something is terribly wrong because they sound like a full marching brass band, less brass more drums.

[T2000]

Thanks T2000 for the quick reply.

Well I only have 4 green lights on my indicator and 1 red.

I kinda figured that maybe, as the gas levels get lower, its free to move around more in the tank, so taking off the gas is pulled away from the senor or something.

I'll run it dry and see what I get. I would be happy with anything close to 400kms on my first tank...I really opted ofr this system for the better milage rather then power.

Your welcome mate.

With the gauge I don't think of red as empty and the greens as quarters. I just think of each as 1/5th of a tank... if that makes sense:confused: This can be verified by checking your "fuel used" on the trip computer (this may even be a more accurate way to gauge fuel used instead of the LED gauge). The trip computer "fuel used" and "Instant Fuel" figures will be out by approx 16%. So when your trip computer says you've used 50L, then you have used approx 58L of LPG (just my rough calcs)... time to find a pump!

My guess at your current useage will be that you see about 375km for this tank.

Hopefully as it "beds in" this will improve for you.

At your first service line pressures & calibration can be checked. This may reveal a fault if your fuel usage is excessive.


My injectors, well then something is terribly wrong because they sound like a full marching brass band, less brass more drums.
:rofl: Nice analogy there mate! Definately worth getting these little drummers checked!

Regards

Chris

[Plantagenet]

Thanks again.

My trip says 38km average speed and 14.25lt/100km.

Rough calcs suggest that if I get 375km at a 60lt tank then thats 16ltr/100km. If I get this result across multiple tanks...hmmm I'll be a sad man.

I'll give it the next two tanks to determine whats the go.

As for those injectors...they are 100% louder then the pet ones...very distinct clicking sound.

[T2000]

38 kph AVG speed ... at that sort of speed my 6L returns about 18L/100 .

Also applying my (very rough) correction to your trip computer L/100 figure (14.25 LPH + 16%) = 16.53... Range is approx 363km (assuming you can use the full 60L)

No insult intended ... BUT... are you sure you have a LIQUID INJECTED LPG setup? I know that the Vapour Injected setups can be quite noisy... and your install cost seems quite cheap :confused:

Liquid Injected setups can suffer from "fuel line hammer" if the fuel line is hard saddled to the firewall. But this is more of a dull coursing/ pulsing type noise than an injector "tick".

[old holden V8]

Chris.

Do you have some time to take a few photo's of the install and post up here?

Might help others make up their minds..

Cheers

Laurie..

PS. Just re-read my earlier post re the "12's"....Um, ah.....I was talking about fuel consumption! Not 1/4 mile!!!!!:eyes:

:):):)

[T2000]

Chris.

Do you have some time to take a few photo's of the install and post up here?

Might help others make up their minds..

Cheers

Laurie..

PS. Just re-read my earlier post re the "12's"....Um, ah.....I was talking about fuel consumption! Not 1/4 mile!!!!!:eyes:

:):):)

Hi Laurie...

:rofl: Yeah I interpreted that as 1/4 mile :rofl: oops!

Oh well, eventually I am hoping to achieve both.

12 L /100 km and a 12 sec 1/4 mile... the perfect pair!!!

I think that with a baby cam, extractors and a touch-up tune I will reach it!

I get my car back from the panel beaters tomorrow... (nothing major just scratch and stonechip removal).

I'll take a series of photos and post 'em.

I did have some low quality photos from my phone which show the tank and filler but no under bonnet stuff... not really helpful.

Re the fuel economy... IMHO - I really think that a tune is required to get close to the fuel economy of PULP. Especially the ignition timing is vastly different.

Can anyone comment on the stock or tuned PULP ignition timing ?

Google research leads me to believe that optimal timing for LPG would be close to:
an initial advance of between 12 - 15 deg,
22 - 25 deg by 2,000rpm and a max of 26 deg by 2,500deg.

How would this compare with the PULP ignition table???

Cheers

Chris

[Plantagenet]

Geez good question....hehehe wouldnt have a clue if mine is vapour injected or liquid. I thought I was shelling out for the best system.

How better is liquid injection?

Its the SVI system from Ezy Gas Conversions.

Eitherway I was told that milage would be better then petrol. I'm gonna give it a few more tanks and if it doesnt increase after my first 1000km service then I'll be asking questions.

well I guess SVI means vapor injection....

[T2000]

Geez good question....hehehe wouldnt have a clue if mine is vapour injected or liquid. I thought I was shelling out for the best system.

How better is liquid injection?

Its the SVI system from Ezy Gas Conversions.

Eitherway I was told that milage would be better then petrol. I'm gonna give it a few more tanks and if it doesnt increase after my first 1000km service then I'll be asking questions.

well I guess SVI means vapor injection....

Yep SVI = Sequential Vapour Injection

The jury is probably still out on how much better LI is over SVI... but there is definately an improvement.
Think of SVI as 2nd generation & LI as 3rd generation of LPG kits.

IMHO this is what I see as the general expectation of both systems

SVI = NO IMPROVEMENT IN RWKW (probably slight reduction in power)
LI = Approx +20 RWKW for a 6L V8.

SVI ~= 15 - 20% MORE FUEL USAGE THAN PULP
LI ~= 5 - 15% MORE FUEL USAGE THAN PULP.

SVI ~= $4500 (veh & option dependant)
LI ~= $ 5000 (veh & option dependant)

If you asked for Liquid Injection and got SVI I would be :flipoff: to the installer!

[Plantagenet]

No my fault was ignorant of the two systems thought they were one and the same.

These 15-20% more consumption figures are disheartening. I only went to gas because I thought consumption was near or better then petrol.

What about conventional systems. I would have been out of pocket only $300 rather then $2250. Besides backfires, is the milage the same?

So...I can expect 16lt/100 for suburban driving from my SVI system? That is poo and if I'd known this before hand I 100% would have passed on the conversion.

:spew:

[T2000]

No my fault was ignorant of the two systems thought they were one and the same.

These 15-20% more consumption figures are disheartening. I only went to gas because I thought consumption was near or better then petrol.

What about conventional systems. I would have been out of pocket only $300 rather then $2250. Besides backfires, is the milage the same?

So...I can expect 16lt/100 for suburban driving from my SVI system? That is poo and if I'd known this before hand I 100% would have passed on the conversion.

:spew:

Unfortunately a realistic expectation is that you will consistently use about 15% more LPG that PULP with SVI and have slightly less power (but maybe more torque). This scenario can be improved with tuning... but that will be to the detriment of your PULP performance and economy.

A 1st generation LPG setup (venturi between you airbox and throttle body) is even worse in terms of economy and performance. AND as you mentioned you can suffer hard starting, backfires etc - which is eliminated in a good Generation 2 conversion.

Maybe post in another LPG thread were there may be more members running SVI on an Alloytec or Ecotec... they may be able to guide you on expected economy ... and hopefully provide a few tips on how to get the best out of your system.

I would also contact one of the forum sponsors that tunes alloytecs... they may be able to offer some advice on an optimum setup for your LPG install.

I ran a VL on a Throttle Body Injected LPG kit (consider it a generation 1.5 LPG kit) ... LPG only setup, tuned for GAS for many years... it paid for itself many times over. Performed better than petrol and returned about 13.5L/100km for 60kph AVG speed.

Good Luck!


Regards.

Chris

[kesa322]

Hopefully your car will settle into the gas a bit better yet, otherwise l'd be having a word with ezygas........l have a friend at work with just a standard gas system on her vt wagon and she does'nt get any backfire and her car returns about 16l/100k's around town( l think it a single injected job.........have'nt looked at it ,cost her 3300 with a donut tank).......l think shes lost some top end power but shes very happy with it still .

When l first got my statsman back from the gas guys, it was saying on the trip meter l was using around 20l/100k's........this gradually changed over a couple of tanks to the point now where it is now reading at 13.7L/100k's average around town at 42kph average, so from that l take it the computers are slow to adjust themselves .

Chris, mate l've noticed on my car that when l decelerate the car still says its using 4.5L/100ks .......that compared to our tdi golf which uses 0 when the foots off the throttle.....l know the concepts of each motor is different, but l though all efi motors would shut down fuel when decelerating, l have'nt bothered asking an expert as its trival, but l'm just curious as to why they dont .

ken

[T2000]

Chris, mate l've noticed on my car that when l decelerate the car still says its using 4.5L/100ks .......that compared to our tdi golf which uses 0 when the foots off the throttle.....l know the concepts of each motor is different, but l though all efi motors would shut down fuel when decelerating, l have'nt bothered asking an expert as its trival, but l'm just curious as to why they dont .

ken

G'day Ken...

Not a 100% sure on this one but I think you will find that deceleration fuel cut-off is disabled in the factory tune (probably emission related... super lean could cause potential for emission of Nitrous Oxides & others???). Maybe this isn't an issue on Diesels?:confused:

I know that deceleration fuel cut-off can be enabled with a tune!

I often see 0.0 when decelerating :smilesandbanana:(thanks oztrack!)

Regards

Chris

[kesa322]

Thanks for the reply chris......yeah wish l could afford custom tunes etc :drool:, anyway l'll ask the gas guys when l go in next week .

cheers ken

[Calais V 6.0]

Well, I had the car converted last week at Auto Gas Injection in Frankston. The car is running well atm, but I do have some issues that need to be sorted out. Nothing too major I hope and I also hope they will fix them promptly.

The engine warning light now comes on as soon as I start the car. The car runs without any obvious problems so I am hoping that’s just a glitch. Also a weird thing is that the ESP disengages on deceleration. The ESP light then goes off again after a few seconds indicating its active again???

The other thing they will be looking at is problems filling the tank. On three occasions now, the take will not take any gas at the pump. When connecting the pump, you squeeze the trigger but nothing happens. This has happened from empty as well as with a tank half full.

I am just waiting on the guys to get back to me regarding a suitable installer to have it looked at (as well as the 1000K service).


Cheers
Ben

[Highway]

Well, I had the car converted last week at Auto Gas Injection in Frankston. The car is running well atm, but I do have some issues that need to be sorted out. Nothing too major I hope and I also hope they will fix them promptly.

The engine warning light now comes on as soon as I start the car. The car runs without any obvious problems so I am hoping that’s just a glitch. Also a weird thing is that the ESP disengages on deceleration. The ESP light then goes off again after a few seconds indicating its active again???

The other thing they will be looking at is problems filling the tank. On three occasions now, the take will not take any gas at the pump. When connecting the pump, you squeeze the trigger but nothing happens. This has happened from empty as well as with a tank half full.

I am just waiting on the guys to get back to me regarding a suitable installer to have it looked at (as well as the 1000K service).


Cheers
Ben

Gday Ben,

I had mine also converted the other week with only a few minor teething problems which will be looked at this week when serviced.

Filling the tank was a problem at first for me as well but I think I was just to quick on using the pump handle and not doing it slowly until the gas starts to dispense.

Still cant get anymore than 45-46lts in the tank from empty when I thought it should be closer to 50lt.

No flashing warning lights with mine at all.

Car does go better on gas than petrol.
Getting a tune soon that should be interesting.

Mike

[Calais V 6.0]

Gday Ben,

I had mine also converted the other week with only a few minor teething problems which will be looked at this week when serviced.

Filling the tank was a problem at first for me as well but I think I was just to quick on using the pump handle and not doing it slowly until the gas starts to dispense.

Still cant get anymore than 45-46lts in the tank from empty when I thought it should be closer to 50lt.

No flashing warning lights with mine at all.

Car does go better on gas than petrol.
Getting a tune soon that should be interesting.

Mike

Hey mate, Good to hear! I'm not worried at this stage. The filling issue is definitely not a problem from my eagerness to fill it. It just sits there not letting anything through. I think its something to do with pressure built up in the tank. Time will tell though. I went for the bigger tank in the end, so I get 60lt in there.

Another odd thing is the gauge. Sometimes it has 4 green lights lit indicating its full. Other times (with 60lts being added again) it only has 2 green lights lit indicating half full.... Bit odd really.

Also forgot to mention, on top of the engine warning and ESP alerts the dash and centre console lights sometimes don’t come on.

The engine is stronger when running on GAS than on petrol and down the track I will get a tune for both the GAS and Petrol. Cant wait for that!:smilesandbanana:

Cheers
Ben

[T2000]

Hi Ben & Mike...

@Ben sounds like you are having more than just the normal teething issues.
I didn't see any electronic gremlins at all!:confused:
60 L tank?? I assume it is not a donut? - I would love a 60ish donut:)

@Ben & Mike... I think the "Hard Fill" issue will sort itself out. I had this issue across a couple of tanks, but it seems to have disappeared of its' own accord. My fills now are fast & reliable, you can really hear it "hit" the lock-offs... you know when its' full.

I have put a max of about 48.x in mine, but I think this probably has a lot to do with temperatures, pressures and the Pump Hardware.

When are you coming down to Wollongong for your service Mike?


Regards

Chris

[indyeve]

Gday Ben,

I had mine also converted the other week with only a few minor teething problems which will be looked at this week when serviced.

Filling the tank was a problem at first for me as well but I think I was just to quick on using the pump handle and not doing it slowly until the gas starts to dispense.

Still cant get anymore than 45-46lts in the tank from empty when I thought it should be closer to 50lt.

No flashing warning lights with mine at all.

Car does go better on gas than petrol.
Getting a tune soon that should be interesting.

Mike

hey highway how many klm s you get out off a tank?

[Highway]

Hey mate, Good to hear! I'm not worried at this stage. The filling issue is definitely not a problem from my eagerness to fill it. It just sits there not letting anything through. I think its something to do with pressure built up in the tank. Time will tell though. I went for the bigger tank in the end, so I get 60lt in there.

Another odd thing is the gauge. Sometimes it has 4 green lights lit indicating its full. Other times (with 60lts being added again) it only has 2 green lights lit indicating half full.... Bit odd really.

Also forgot to mention, on top of the engine warning and ESP alerts the dash and centre console lights sometimes don’t come on.

The engine is stronger when running on GAS than on petrol and down the track I will get a tune for both the GAS and Petrol. Cant wait for that!:smilesandbanana:

Cheers
Ben

The gauge does seem a bit unreliable with the green lights changing at times.
Heat definately affects the speed of the fill and how much gas you can get in the tank.
I will try filling today when its cooler and see the difference.
Sounds like you have a few gremlims in the electronics for your installer to fix.
Best of Luck

Mike


I've had mine for a while now. It does drive great.

I agree the donut tank can be annoying. 48 litres means I have to fill up twice a week. I get about 350- 380kms out of a tank.

Does anyone have issues with auto switch over to petrol when gas runs out? ie stalling?

G'Day,
I have had the liquid fitted a couple of weeks ago and can not get near 350-380 kms per tank.

Have you had it tuned or are the figures straight out of the box ?

Does go better on gas thats for sure.

Getting it tuned soon after its service this week.

No stalling on the change to petrol at all you can hardly notice any difference.

All the best

Mike

[old holden V8]

G'day all you new LILPG punters.

Reading a few of the last posts, I though I might put in my experiences with OLDER STYLE converter/mixer style dual fual that I did approximately 100K on. It MIGHT be relevant to the new LILPG..

1. All LP Gas is NOT the same gas. Some filling stations have "better" LPG than others - as I think some one here (?) might have mentioned. This poorer quality fuel can show up as poor performance, and worse mileage. Something to do with the butane/propane mix I believe. I used to fill where Taxi's filled - and had no worries.

2. Some filler nozzles can be really hard to fill from - to the extent that as soon as you squeeze the filler lever, the bowser will "lock off" (like it's full). Also sometimes this would happen when I would only take on board 1/3 - 2/3's of LPG from what I estimated the fill to be. Again I filled from where Taxi's filled from - no problems.

3. On a hot day you'll find you get less in the tank.

4. Engine was a lot harder on plugs. (Red 4.2L V8)

Again this might not apply to the newer LILPG conversions...

HTH

Laurie.

:)

[T2000]

Chris.

Do you have some time to take a few photo's of the install and post up here?

Might help others make up their minds..

Cheers

Laurie..


Hi guys finally got around to taking the requested photos... here you go:
I have tried to label them... if my ignorance has made me a liar, my ego won't get dented if Blownba or Ben Lee want to correct me
:)

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2131.jpg
Injectors and fuel lines.

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2125.jpg
More Injector shots... notice the re-routed heater hoses (thanks Kurt)


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2126.jpg


http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2127.jpg
These little black boxes which are grafted to the sides of the fuse box are the injector controllers

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2128.jpg
Liquid LPG pressure regulator

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2129.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2130.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2124.jpg
Fuel gauge & switch

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2123.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2122.jpg

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2121.jpg
50L Donut Tank... Hmmm a bit more room in here yet ALPGW ;)

Sorry about the last couple of photos, they're crappy camera/phone jobs

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/06-11-08_1508.jpg
LPG & Petrol Fillers

http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/06-11-08_1606.jpg
LPG Fuel Filter (Rear drivers side inner gaurd)


Hope these help ...

Regards,

Chris

[old holden V8]

Hi guys finally got around to taking the requested photos... here you go:
I have tried to label them... if my ignorance has made me a liar, my ego won't get dented if Blownba or Ben Lee want to correct me
:)


More Injector shots... notice the re-routed heater hoses (thanks Kurt)





http://i353.photobucket.com/albums/r373/chrisbarwick7/LILPG/DSCF2127.jpg


Hope these help ...

Regards,

Chris

Great shots Chris, Thank-you.

A couple of questions: In the shot I have quoted, does the LILPG get into the intake via the little black hoses? Where does the other end connect?

And; What are you doing for a spare? Space saver? Can of sealant??

Thanks again

Laurie

:)

[ratter]

The short little black hoses go to the injector nozzles which are placed into the manifold, these hoses actually contain the small gas pipe inside them, they are used to protect the gas pipe and also to seal against any vacuum leaks

[T2000]

Great shots Chris, Thank-you.

A couple of questions: In the shot I have quoted, does the LILPG get into the intake via the little black hoses? Where does the other end connect?

And; What are you doing for a spare? Space saver? Can of sealant??

Thanks again

Laurie

:)

Hey Laurie,

Yep two brass fuel rails, 4 injectors per rail.
The fuel rails consist of an input and return line... a cyclic - constant pressure setup.
Each injector has a green cap (where the loom connects) and an output hose (3/8 ?), which then attaches to the nozzle which is located above the inlet valve. The nozzles are drilled and tapped into the plastic manifold.

The spare is a tyre in a can. The kit came with a 12V compressor and a bottle of Slime. Providing I don't tear the sidewall out of the tyre, the kit should repair a flat in 10 to 15 mins.


Kind Regards


Chris

[pk2k78]

The gauge does seem a bit unreliable with the green lights changing at times.
Heat definately affects the speed of the fill and how much gas you can get in the tank.
I will try filling today when its cooler and see the difference.
Sounds like you have a few gremlims in the electronics for your installer to fix.
Best of Luck

Mike



G'Day,
I have had the liquid fitted a couple of weeks ago and can not get near 350-380 kms per tank.

Have you had it tuned or are the figures straight out of the box ?

Does go better on gas thats for sure.

Getting it tuned soon after its service this week.

No stalling on the change to petrol at all you can hardly notice any difference.

All the best

Mike

I have a V6 (Alloytec) :)

[old holden V8]

Hi Chris.

OK. I understand.

For tubeless repairs I use the plug and glue kits - work well when I had the last motorbike with tubeless tyres.

Like this

http://www.tyrepliers.com.au/Products/punc.htm

HTH

Laurie.

:)

[T2000]

If you can believe the instructions on the "Slime" bottle, you jusy remove the offending cause of the puncture, squeeze the contents of the bottle into the tyre through the valve. Then inflate the tyre. 19 to 15 mins...

:)

[Jbond]

G'Day,
I have had the liquid fitted a couple of weeks ago and can not get near 350-380 kms per tank.

Have you had it tuned or are the figures straight out of the box ?

Does go better on gas thats for sure.

Getting it tuned soon after its service this week.

No stalling on the change to petrol at all you can hardly notice any difference.

All the best

Mike



Guys, I'm getting confused. Do you need to have a petrol system to "switch over" to? I thought that liquid injection would replace the petrol system?
What are the downfalls to not having a petrol system if you go to liquid lpg injection?

[T2000]

Guys, I'm getting confused. Do you need to have a petrol system to "switch over" to? I thought that liquid injection would replace the petrol system?
What are the downfalls to not having a petrol system if you go to liquid lpg injection?

Hi mate,

the default setup is for the system to start on Petrol, then purge and switch to LPG... about 60 secs. It will also switch to Petrol automatically if your running dangerously low on gas (it won't let you run to empty to protect the pump etc).

At least if you duel fuel, you can always find a servo or a jerry can... I always run with a 1/4 tank of ULP. So running out of gas still leaves me 100+ kms to find a servo with LPG.

I think an installer would be able to do a gas only setup for you but you would need to speak to an installer or ALPGW.

If you do decide to go straight gas I can only think of 2 issues.

1. Hard starting
2. Running out could be a drama (tow truck)

Regards

Chris

[kesa322]

Hi chris, mate l was talking to an installer awhile ago when l was contemplating buying a merc and running that on straight gas , ( the non efi dont do duel fuel well ) and l asked what options was there if you run out of gas , he said either go 2 tanks or for a fee he can supply a hose that connects any bbq bottle to transfer gas into your tank ( think it was $120 ). that way you could go to a servo and get one of those swap&go bottles if worse came to worse.........pretty handy option l thought.

ken

[Jbond]

Hi mate,

the default setup is for the system to start on Petrol, then purge and switch to LPG... about 60 secs. It will also switch to Petrol automatically if your running dangerously low on gas (it won't let you run to empty to protect the pump etc).

At least if you duel fuel, you can always find a servo or a jerry can... I always run with a 1/4 tank of ULP. So running out of gas still leaves me 100+ kms to find a servo with LPG.

I think an installer would be able to do a gas only setup for you but you would need to speak to an installer or ALPGW.

If you do decide to go straight gas I can only think of 2 issues.

1. Hard starting
2. Running out could be a drama (tow truck)

Regards

Chris

Hmmm Why is it hard to start?
And why do you need to purge?

[pk2k78]

Hi mate,

the default setup is for the system to start on Petrol, then purge and switch to LPG... about 60 secs. It will also switch to Petrol automatically if your running dangerously low on gas (it won't let you run to empty to protect the pump etc).

At least if you duel fuel, you can always find a servo or a jerry can... I always run with a 1/4 tank of ULP. So running out of gas still leaves me 100+ kms to find a servo with LPG.

I think an installer would be able to do a gas only setup for you but you would need to speak to an installer or ALPGW.

If you do decide to go straight gas I can only think of 2 issues.

1. Hard starting
2. Running out could be a drama (tow truck)

Regards

Chris

Um... my car stalls most of the time when I run out of gas. I know this for sure because once it did it while I was going through a busy intersection on the Nepean hwy and once when I was turning a corner. That was fun, I lost power steering and nearly side swiped another car!

I don't do it anymore I just wanted to see how many kms I would get from a full tank. So this shouldn't be happening?

[Highway]

Um... my car stalls most of the time when I run out of gas. I know this for sure because once it did it while I was going through a busy intersection on the Nepean hwy and once when I was turning a corner. That was fun, I lost power steering and nearly side swiped another car!

I don't do it anymore I just wanted to see how many kms I would get from a full tank. So this shouldn't be happening?

Definately not should just change to petrol with virtually no effect at all.

Get it checked out it sounds like there is some adjustment needed.

Mike

[anonymousmoose]

Hello one and all

I just bought a WK 2003 V8 5.7 litre caprice. Which LPG system would you recommend on it? There are so may different ones.

[VIXEN-T]

a BA XR6 turbo has been fitted with liquid injection LPG and has made 350rwkw....liquid injection LPG looks like the way to go! :bow:

[Wonky]

a BA XR6 turbo has been fitted with liquid injection LPG and has made 350rwkw....liquid injection LPG looks like the way to go! :bow:

I suspect you left out some pertinant details!! The way you wrote it implies that a stock XR6T ended up with 350rwkw! :shock: I seriously doubt that!! :lol: If that was true we'd all be doing it! :D