Lpg Liquid Injection

[APS Fston]

Liquid LPG injection is finally here.
Australian LPG Warehouse (www. lpgliquidinjection.com) have been working overtime in developing the first Liquid LPG injection system on the Australian market.
This system is more fuel efficient with an improvement on fuel consumption of up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.
Power gains are also another advantage due to the LPG being injected into the cylinder as a liquid.
The vehicles already developed are Holden LS1 5.7, 6.0ltr, Ford BA/BF 6cyl, Territory 1&2.
These vehicles are all emission approved.

[mmciau]

Would you please double check the link reference please. It is not working

Mike

[Highway]

Liquid LPG injection is finally here.
Australian LPG Warehouse (www. lpgliquidinjection.com) have been working overtime in developing the first Liquid LPG injection system on the Australian market.
This system is more fuel efficient with an improvement on fuel consumption of up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.
Power gains are also another advantage due to the LPG being injected into the cylinder as a liquid.
The vehicles already developed are Holden LS1 5.7, 6.0ltr, Ford BA/BF 6cyl, Territory 1&2.
These vehicles are all emission approved.

Great news with the VE wagon out in a few months.

Is valve wear to be any problem with the liquid injection system ?

Can you advise me who in Sydney will be able to do the installs and give some idea on prices etc.

Thanks for your assistance.

Mike

[Space Pope]

Be interested to see what kind of power can be made with these systems and how much they cost. These might become more and more popular as fuel keeps going up in price.

p.s....is that URL correct ??

[cashie]

The URL works, just take the space out after the www....

We need more info on this system and some pics..

[APS Fston]

I will post up pics as soon as possible of the JTG system. Because it is the next generation in LPG technology the initial outlay for installation will be higher but as already discussed, the economy is hugely increased.

[German Statesman]

Metropolitan Autogas in Brisbane had a prototype liquid injection system running back in 2001.

Although originally designed for trucks (they have converted a Nissan PK235 and an Acco 2350 with a Cummins 8.3CTA) it is LPG-only, and provided phenomenal results. Easily adapted to cars but each kit needs to be certified by the govt if offered for sale in Aust.

Same rules apply with any new product, gentlemen - don't be a guinea pig for an unproven/experimental offering unless you are fully insured by them for any part/warranty item that breaks.

JOHN

[Ben Lee]

Gday Guys,

I am the Australian LPG Warehouse's Managing Engineer. The Liquid Injection system you are discussing above is made by Icom and developed for Australian vehicles and conditions by us. We have been doing extensive durability testing and development on the system (Called JTG) over the past year with great results.

We have been developing emission compliant kits for the most common vehicles first. On that list is BA/BF sedan, Territory 1&2, Holden 5.7lt sedan and Holden 6lt sedan.

We have given our first training session on the JTG liquid injection system to our first group of installers with positive feedback. As the demand for this system is huge, we have made a decision to only supply to the first 2 groups trained for the first 6 months. To be a certified installer of this product the installer must first attend the training and have the appropriate tooling as the technology is quite different to traditional systems.

Just to cover a few topics discussed above. The system has no requirement for any injection timing strategies. Full control of the system is via the factory engine management system. This is quite different to standard vapour injection systems as they need to manipulate the injection pulse with due to pressure, temperature, and flow issues. The JTG controller is only there to switch the pulse from the petrol to lpg injectors and control the LPG pump.

The system is quite similar to a petrol system. The cylinder has a pump integrated that pushes the LPG to the injectors common rail. This is then ran through a pressure regulator similar to a petrol regulator and fed back to the tank via a return line. The pressure is kept 3 bar over tank pressure.

The injectors deliver liquid LPG directly into the manifold via a small tube. This is installed much the same as vapour injection. A hole is drilled in the manifold as close to the petrol injector as possible and a nozzle is taped in. The difference is that the liquid is passed through a small inner hose that is inserted into the nozzle. An outer hose is then placed over the smaller hose and onto the outside of the nozzle.

The injector is made by Siemens specifically for the JTG system. The flow of this injector is matched to the flow of the petrol injector via a calibration tip inserted into the housing. This is all developed by us before the kit is sent out. We measure the flow of the petrol injector for each vehicle type and then select the appropriate calibrator and injector combination. This is then tested for power, drivability, economy and Emissions. Once we have a final match, this system is then sent to the emission lab for certification.

The end result is a complete kit with laser cut brackets, plug and play wiring and ready to bolt on and drive. We have seen huge fuel savings and power gain using this system. The fuel usage using JTG is within 5% of petrol unlike vapour injection which is only within 20%. This makes it a very viable option. As with all technology it is more expensive than its predecessor. However it will only be from $300 to $400 more per kit depending on the vehicle. This is well made up for in the 15% benefit over vapour injection economy.
The system can run as straight gas or duel fuel. The only issue with straight gas is that there is a delay of 3 seconds before start up. JTG requires a purge of the supply and return lines before start up. This is to remove any vapour from the lines. On duel fuel systems this is set for about 30 seconds. The system during this time will run on petrol while it circulates LPG. After this time it will then switch to LPG by itself. Straight gas vehicles have this purge time set at a minimum.
The system cannot be upgraded from traditional systems as mentioned above. The cylinder has an integrated pump and uses a return line (This pump however can be accessed). The fill line in the JTG system also has a filter. This is to stop any contaminants affecting the pump. The filter can be replaced and we set an interval of 50,000km.

Our JTG system was not derived from a truck system and has been througherly tested both in Europe and Australia. In fact over 30,000 vehicles already have this system. Ford, Subaru, and a list of other manufacturers are also using this system from factory.

Our website is alpgw.com.au. At the moment there is no reference to out JTG liquid injection system as it has only just hit the market. It will soon be populated with all the information you require but in the meantime you can have a look at Icom’s site (The component manufacturer). They are at icomitalia.it/lang1/index.html. I will also soon post some images on this forum.

(The forum would not let me post links. Just copy and paste into internet explorer )

[Calais V 6.0]

So is this a $2000 system (I know its not) or a $6000 system. Can you give a ball park figure for a VE SS??

[mdrysdale]

liquid injection all sounds good in theory but lpg must expand 250 times when going a liquid to vapour. if you have 2.5 milliseconds of liquid LPG injected at what point does it become vapour and what effect does it have? in theory we should be talking nanosecond injection times, and is there any effects to fuel trims? And also these fuel pressures you are running seem very high too, LPG in the tank as pressures of MPa and you are going higher still, seems very dangerous.

[SS Sportswagon]

Would you please double check the link reference please. It is not working

Mike

Worked fine for me www.lpgliquidinjection.com :rofl:

[Ben Lee]

liquid injection all sounds good in theory but lpg must expand 250 times when going a liquid to vapour. if you have 2.5 milliseconds of liquid LPG injected at what point does it become vapour and what effect does it have? in theory we should be talking nanosecond injection times, and is there any effects to fuel trims? And also these fuel pressures you are running seem very high too, LPG in the tank as pressures of MPa and you are going higher still, seems very dangerous.

This system is not in theory. It is in production and is already installed on over 30,000 vehicles throughout Europe. One limitation of Vapour injection is getting enough gas flow through the injector. As a vapour the flow and opening time of the gas injector is very high. Many systems can not deliver the correct amount of LPG before the valve closes again. This is not an issue injecting as a liquid. The LPG expands as it enters the manifold after exiting the injector. This also gives great thermal efficiency as the change from a liquid to a vapour in the manifold cools the intake air.

As stated above, after we select the correct injector and calibrator combination, there is no difference in injector pulse width from petrol to LPG. Fuel trims are exactly as they are on petrol. The management system would see no difference. This has also been backed up by full emission cycle testing and certification.

Pressures are not an issue at all. The system has totally new supply lines and fittings designed for the pressure. On hot days the tank pressure can reach over 10 bar in a std system. 13 bar is not an issue. Every component including the injectors have been designed and tested to run with over 30 bar.

[chevypower]

Apparently Shell are building a GTL fuel plant in Qatar (gas to liquid) from natural gas for global production for early next decade, to run in unmodified diesel engines with 40% less emissions... a little off the topic but anyway.

[Space Pope]

What happens to a new car engine warranty when one of these systems is fitted up in the aftermarket ?

[MRLXSS]

Wow! I am extremely interested in this style of system.

3 Questions

1) Rough Price?

2) How will the Valves in my LS1 hold up to it?

3) When and Where can i get it fitted?

[dmenace]

Is this a similar setup to what Gas Injection Technologies use?

[mmciau]

Is it similar technology that Holden are putting on the VZ-VE dual fuel purposely defined and modified production V6 engines?

mike

[muzza]

This is LIQUID gas injection, not vapour injection. I guess you can call this a 3rd generation system and it look to be the ducks guts in terms of using LP gas to greatest effect in petrol engines.

Originally the systems from a few years ago looked at running the liquid gas through the petrol injectors, with a few prototypes being made but they never got off the ground.

I'd hazard a guess that it will cost in the region of $6000, given the higher spec gear required plus in-tank pump and more messing about with with intake manifold.

It would be great if Holden committed to building a dedicated liquid gas injected V8 car with properly integrated tanks - power would be identical to petrol, economy should be maybe 10% worse but running costs would make every other fuel look expensive as long as the gov't doesn't start taxing the sh*t out of LPG.

[ratter]

I'd hazard a guess that it will cost in the region of $6000, given the higher spec gear required plus in-tank pump and more messing about with with intake manifold.

.

I think you may find that this system is only $300-400 dearer than SVI system

[German Statesman]

This system is not in theory. It is in production and is already installed on over 30,000 vehicles throughout Europe. One limitation of Vapour injection is getting enough gas flow through the injector. As a vapour the flow and opening time of the gas injector is very high. Many systems can not deliver the correct amount of LPG before the valve closes again. This is not an issue injecting as a liquid. The LPG expands as it enters the manifold after exiting the injector. This also gives great thermal efficiency as the change from a liquid to a vapour in the manifold cools the intake air.

As stated above, after we select the correct injector and calibrator combination, there is no difference in injector pulse width from petrol to LPG. Fuel trims are exactly as they are on petrol. The management system would see no difference. This has also been backed up by full emission cycle testing and certification.

Pressures are not an issue at all. The system has totally new supply lines and fittings designed for the pressure. On hot days the tank pressure can reach over 10 bar in a std system. 13 bar is not an issue. Every component including the injectors have been designed and tested to run with over 30 bar.

Firstly, congratulations on your efforts. Its a little known fact that Australians lead the way with LPG technology and our LS1 kits are far superior to anything on the US market.

I was involved with the Metropolitan Autogas system back in '99 when it was first developed. A number of wide-ranging patents were taken out on a number of the design features, as well as the process undertaken to covert the Nissan and Cummins engines mentioned to spark ignition and LPG-only operation. If I were an LS1 forum customer looking to convert a healthy V8 to LPG, I would take comfort in the fact that not only have the Metropolitan Autogas kits been proven to handle 6.0, 8.3 and 14 litre commercial-use engines up to 700kw over millions of kilometres of heavy duty use, but also that they have been approved for use and sale in certified kits as well as being passed by the Australian Greenhouse Office.

Any kit made for a particular vehicle type, must be approved - no longer can you put together a box of she'll-be-right parts that will 'suit' a range of vehicles. If not passed as such the kit is illegal and is not allowed to be installed.

Pardon my bold typing, but there is a minefield of dodgy equipment makers/installers in the industry at present scalping the public for the easy-money that the subsidised LPG conversion scheme is providing. The bold typing refers to the facts that must be ascertained before the customer hands over their pride and joy with their hard-earned.

There was a very good point brought up before about precise fuel metering through injectors. Given that the amount of liquid LPG injected is going to be critical, what safeguards have been taken against injector wear where the metering of fuel steadily decreases as the pintle wears and the amount of fuel injected becomes more and more? In the case of the vast majority of older cars with worn petrol injectors running around on Aussie roads, this neglect of maintenance in your system seems like a recipe for a blown engine....

You also mention the use of a petrol system regulator - I've experienced numerous instances of AC Delco fuel pressure regulators failing, and fuel leaking out of injectors or pouring into engine cylinders. What precautions have you taken to ensure this doesn't happen, and 300lbs/sq in of liquid LPG starts entering the combustion chambers and expanding??

Don't take these questions as personal attacks or criticism - in 12yrs in the motor industry, it paid to become a cynic and rely on cold hard facts as proof of any new product/venture. I'd love to see your product on the market, but I'd like to see the questions perhaps no-one else would know to ask, answered.

BTW - say hello to Hilbert for me. He was a great help when we were working with Mazda on the DF Bravo kits.

JOHN

[chevypower]

propane here in utah is like $2.70 a gallon (compared to regular unleaded's $3.15) given that propane (and LPG) use more fuel over a given distance, it doesn't make sense to switch to those fuels here. In Australia, if you removed tax off both LPG and unleaded, (or made them equal), it would be a similar story.

[Ben Lee]

German Statesman,

Thanks for your comments. We pride ourselves in the fact that we do things differently to other LPG suppliers and manufacturers. You can see this for yourself by trying one of our SVI systems.

I have seen too many LPG systems flooded onto the market without any thought of development, durability or training and back up. These systems have given the industry a step backwards. As stated we like to think we do things different. Coming from an OEM background, I like to cover all bases first. The main items being product development, durability, and certification (Both hardware compliance and emission certification).

I can guarantee that all of our systems fully comply with Australian standards and have been fully emission certified. Every vehicle specific kit developed by us is emission tested and certified by the RTA as per the Australian standards.

We have seen great results using JTG. Euro 2 vehicles can and have passed Euro 3 testing very easily. Euro 4 vehicles not a problem either.

I’m not sure that you fully understand the system. Our injectors are of OEM standard and made by Siemens. They are the same technology as a petrol injector and can be serviced in exactly the same way. This is unlike most other LPG systems. As stated before our Liquid Injection system is fully controlled by the current engine management system. All OBD checks carried out by that system on petrol is also carried out on our LPG system. We have not had any issues at all during our extensive durability testing with faulty or drifting injectors. But even if there was, first the fuel trims would look after it. If then bay chance it was too much for the fuel trims, the check engine light would come on informing the driver of an error. This acts in the exact way as the OEM petrol system. This is because it is the same system controlling it. You can’t get better than that.

We also have not had any issues with the pressure reg. But if your scenario would happen there are many fail safes in the system. For one the vehicle would not run on LPG and switch back to petrol. The system would lock off the LPG. The system also has pressure relief in the pump and a fail safe pressure switch in the tank. It would be no different to the petrol system doing the same once again.

As you have been in the trade for some time, I to have been in OEM automotive engineering for over 13 years and like to see a product properly developed and tested before release.

[Blown 454 AWD]

Would this work with forced induction?

If OK with forced induction, and when naturally aspirated is so much better with emissions, would this system if tuned correctly, make a twin screw super charger much closer to become ADR emission compliant?

Cheers

Steve

[German Statesman]

German Statesman,

Thanks for your comments. We pride ourselves in the fact that we do things differently to other LPG suppliers and manufacturers. You can see this for yourself by trying one of our SVI systems.

I have seen too many LPG systems flooded onto the market without any thought of development, durability or training and back up. These systems have given the industry a step backwards. As stated we like to think we do things different. Coming from an OEM background, I like to cover all bases first. The main items being product development, durability, and certification (Both hardware compliance and emission certification).

I can guarantee that all of our systems fully comply with Australian standards and have been fully emission certified. Every vehicle specific kit developed by us is emission tested and certified by the RTA as per the Australian standards.

We have seen great results using JTG. Euro 2 vehicles can and have passed Euro 3 testing very easily. Euro 4 vehicles not a problem either.

I’m not sure that you fully understand the system. Our injectors are of OEM standard and made by Siemens. They are the same technology as a petrol injector and can be serviced in exactly the same way. This is unlike most other LPG systems. As stated before our Liquid Injection system is fully controlled by the current engine management system. All OBD checks carried out by that system on petrol is also carried out on our LPG system. We have not had any issues at all during our extensive durability testing with faulty or drifting injectors. But even if there was, first the fuel trims would look after it. If then bay chance it was too much for the fuel trims, the check engine light would come on informing the driver of an error. This acts in the exact way as the OEM petrol system. This is because it is the same system controlling it. You can’t get better than that.

We also have not had any issues with the pressure reg. But if your scenario would happen there are many fail safes in the system. For one the vehicle would not run on LPG and switch back to petrol. The system would lock off the LPG. The system also has pressure relief in the pump and a fail safe pressure switch in the tank. It would be no different to the petrol system doing the same once again.

As you have been in the trade for some time, I to have been in OEM automotive engineering for over 13 years and like to see a product properly developed and tested before release.


Great to hear you have done your homework - I too have a manufacturer background but in franchised dealers, and I've see worn injectors that pump too much fuel into combustion chambers - it seems catastrophic with liquid LPG that expands 270 times its size.

An engine check light does not mean a customer will get a car fixed!! I understand your point, but I've lost count of the cabs I've been in where the Eng Chck light is on and ignored.

Best of luck - sounds exciting.

[HOWQUICK]

Great to hear you have done your homework - I too have a manufacturer background but in franchised dealers, and I've see worn injectors that pump too much fuel into combustion chambers - it seems catastrophic with liquid LPG that expands 270 times its size.

Best of luck - sounds exciting.

doesn't it expand to that rate once it turns into a gas and as such is compressable?:confused:

[CSP]

propane here in utah is like $2.70 a gallon (compared to regular unleaded's $3.15) given that propane (and LPG) use more fuel over a given distance, it doesn't make sense to switch to those fuels here. In Australia, if you removed tax off both LPG and unleaded, (or made them equal), it would be a similar story.

Less than 85 cents a litre in the USA for regular unleaded? Why are so many Americans whinging about petrol prices? :vpo:

[cashie]

Looking forward to some more info, some pics and to know where in Perth this can get done....

[mnasteski01]

Does Lpg Liquid Injection void they warranty on VE SS

[cashie]

Does Lpg Liquid Injection void they warranty on VE SS

As with any non-factory endorsed product/mod, if the damage can be proven to be caused by the mod warranty will be voided on that damage.

[ogre]

I have been holding off converting to SVI for this very technology.

The fact that it can run Dual Fuel means that one can get the benefits of liquid LPG injection, AND the range advantage of access to both fuels, as well as a jerry can option for 2nd-level backup.

I would love to know what installers in Melbourne are trained and how soon they can book customers in (myself included!).

Another query is that if LPG is metered by the original petrol system, how would this affect trip computers?

[TTVN]

awesome that the liquid ststems are finally available

iv been waiting 15 yrs for this lol

[bricat]

Mick will bring car in Monday morning for conversion Thanks Brian

[cashie]

Mick will bring car in Monday morning for conversion Thanks Brian

Let me know how this goes.. I have tried to email and PM on several occasions with no response..

[Calais V 6.0]

Just confirming that this will not be available for customer cars until July/August? I am going to book the VE SS in for a conversion when it is ready......

[Calais V 6.0]

bump:eyes:

[antsv8]

Who are the trained installers in Vic,

Im happy to be a guinepig......

Anthony

[Ben Lee]

Hi All,

It’s been a long time since my last post. Please see below a list of our first JTG Liquid Injection certified installers. They will be installing JTG from the 1st of July.

Auto Gas Injection 40 New Street, Frankston, VIC 03 9783 2777
Smithy's Car Care 2/52 Barry Street, Bayswater, VIC 03 9762 2333
Prestock Motors 57 Breese Street, Brunswick, VIC 03 9386 6884
Ezygas (Blackburn only) 176 Whitehorse Rd, Blackburn, VIC 1300 133 114
Lakeside Automotive 234 Edwardes Street, Reservoir, VIC 03 9462 3224
Pakenham Tyre & Mechanical 875 Princes Highway, Pakenham, VIC 03 5940 1669
Steve Smith Motor Pro 823 Howitt Street, Wendouree, VIC 03 5338 1554
Bendigo LPG Conversions 148 Strickland Road, Bendigo, VIC 03 5442 5284

Detailed JTG Liquid injection information will be on our web site from June 1st. We will be certifying more installers not long after the release date of July 1st. In this group will be installers from other states.

[mmjlw]

Hi All,

It’s been a long time since my last post. Please see below a list of our first JTG Liquid Injection certified installers. They will be installing JTG from the 1st of July.

Auto Gas Injection 40 New Street, Frankston, VIC 03 9783 2777
Smithy's Car Care 2/52 Barry Street, Bayswater, VIC 03 9762 2333
Prestock Motors 57 Breese Street, Brunswick, VIC 03 9386 6884
Ezygas (Blackburn only) 176 Whitehorse Rd, Blackburn, VIC 1300 133 114
Lakeside Automotive 234 Edwardes Street, Reservoir, VIC 03 9462 3224
Pakenham Tyre & Mechanical 875 Princes Highway, Pakenham, VIC 03 5940 1669
Steve Smith Motor Pro 823 Howitt Street, Wendouree, VIC 03 5338 1554
Bendigo LPG Conversions 148 Strickland Road, Bendigo, VIC 03 5442 5284

Detailed JTG Liquid injection information will be on our web site from June 1st. We will be certifying more installers not long after the release date of July 1st. In this group will be installers from other states.

I rang some of these places today and while all the information is not out yet the approx price I got is from $4200 to $5500 so with the $2000 rebate it might make a good investment..

[MRLXSS]

There are rumours that the rebate might be getting scrapped though... But We will find that out in tonights budget...

If it isn't scrapped, i agree that it would be a very worthwhile investment

[Calais V 6.0]

There are rumours that the rebate might be getting scrapped though... But We will find that out in tonights budget...

If it isn't scrapped, i agree that it would be a very worthwhile investment

That makes sense. That and cutting the "work for the doll" scheme...... Frigging labour. Bunch of bloody do-gooders:vpo:

[MRLXSS]

Well, I didnt hear anything out of last night that it was Cut, Which is good. This Liquid Injection could be just what i need!

[FrancisT]

I am also very interested; installer fairly close to me too - Would be great if you could clarify the supercharger question though..?

[Fredo]

Is this Liquid Injection going to be made available for the 4.7lt V8 Landcruiser (100 Series)???

[weekendwarrior]

Any new details on this system? Really interested. When do you reckon it will be available in the Brisbane area?

thanks

[FrancisT]

I rang up the guys doing it in Reservoir and they said they will only be doing BA's (fords) initially, though they are still waiting on the kits.

He said that you should be able to do it with the supercharger but you will have to have the supercharger installed first.

[andlis]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know of any installers in sydney who will be doing the liquid injection, i found a mob in wollongong they said the system will be 3-400 dollars dearer, however their vapour system is a fairly hefty $5000 so hopefully some sydney installers might be better?

regards

Andrew

2008 VE CALAIS 6 litre

[Calais V 6.0]

Auto Gas Injection 40 New Street, Frankston, VIC 03 9783 2777
Smithy's Car Care 2/52 Barry Street, Bayswater, VIC 03 9762 2333
Prestock Motors 57 Breese Street, Brunswick, VIC 03 9386 6884
Ezygas (Blackburn only) 176 Whitehorse Rd, Blackburn, VIC 1300 133 114
Lakeside Automotive 234 Edwardes Street, Reservoir, VIC 03 9462 3224
Pakenham Tyre & Mechanical 875 Princes Highway, Pakenham, VIC 03 5940 1669
Steve Smith Motor Pro 823 Howitt Street, Wendouree, VIC 03 5338 1554
Bendigo LPG Conversions 148 Strickland Road, Bendigo, VIC 03 5442 5284


Do any of the above come highly recommended? Anyone here know any of these workshops?

Called Ezygas in Blackburn and was quoted $5000 and the next spot is October:confused:

Wanting to book the SS in for a conversion but will be coming down from Sydney. Just want to make sure I choose the best guy from the list.

Cheers for any feedback.:eyes:

[Highway]

Do any of the above come highly recommended? Anyone here know any of these workshops?

Wanting to book the SS in for a conversion but will be coming down from Sydney. Just want to make sure I choose the best guy from the list.

Cheers for any feedback.:eyes:

Give APS ( Sponsor) a call they are connected somehow to the LPG Warehouse Company.

Maybe LPG Warehouse do fittings also.

I will be getting the same system fitted in a month or two.

In need if the Sydney Installers are not up and running I will also be heading south for the install.

Mike

[NickS]

Surely it can't be right that you need to drive to Vic to get this installed ? Are there any installers in Sydney ?

:confused:

Is there any more concrete info on pricing yet ? What sort of benefits are expected ... kms per tank / cost to fill / affect on performance etc. ?

[Highway]

Installers have not been announced as yet in NSW as far as I know.

The system is supposed to use about 5% more gas than petrol and power is supposed to be the same if not better than petrol.

Cost is something like $500 more than the vapour systems.

[Calais V 6.0]

Surely it can't be right that you need to drive to Vic to get this installed ? Are there any installers in Sydney ?

:confused:

Is there any more concrete info on pricing yet ? What sort of benefits are expected ... kms per tank / cost to fill / affect on performance etc. ?

Sadly, yes. Just Melbourne at this stage. I have had just one quote of over $5000. I was expecting $4000 - $4500.

I am told you don't lose much in fuel economy with these new systems and there aren't any of the nasties you would get with the old gen systems.

Waiting on a call back from Auto Gas Injection in Frankston. Will let you know how that goes.

[ratter]

I doubt you will get a better job than what Auto Gas Injection will do, Rob is very fussy and appreciates these cars, he has owned the LS1 unopened record at one stage and then updated his car to a 400 + rwkw turbo monster. He really understands what people expect.

As far as performance of the liquid injection goes, ALPGW converted a stock XR6Turbo last week, no mods done to the car and it picked up 18 rwkws

[DaveHAT]

Installers have not been announced as yet in NSW as far as I know.

The system is supposed to use about 5% more gas than petrol and power is supposed to be the same if not better than petrol.

Cost is something like $500 more than the vapour systems.

Partialy incorrect Highway. :)

2 x installers in the Hunter area are doing sequential gas injection installs.

1. GASPOWER in Cardiff
2. All care car services in Kurri Kurri.

Both using the sprint gas system.

SGI = approx $4500
Vapour mixer = approx $3500 depending on the car and is NOT recommended for LS1.

Additional cost being due to the gas injectors.



Economy is peg for peg with petrol but @ nearly 50% less at fill time. :yahoo:



My Berlina International wagon goes in next monday for its SGI install. I'll report back after installation and a few weeks of driving.

[ratter]

But he's talking liquid injection not vapour injection

Normal useage is approx 30% more than petrol for mixer ring systems
approx 20% more than petrol for vapour injection systems
approx 5-10% more than petrol for the liquid injection systems

[DaveHAT]

But he's talking liquid injection not vapour injection

Ah ... so he is.

As they say in Adelaide, Ooops.

:hide:

My bad. :slap:

[VYSV8]

Here's a link to ICOM USA's web site:
http://www.icomnorthamerica.com/system.html

Has a few pics of their liquid system installed on some engines!

[Highway]

The only one I know will be an Installer in Sydney will be Premier Auto Centre at Mt Druitt.
When this happens who knows they have to go through some training first.
There is one installer in Hornsby who has put there name down but do not know when/if it will happen.

Mike

[blownba]

Do any of the above come highly recommended? Anyone here know any of these workshops?

Called Ezygas in Blackburn and was quoted $5000 and the next spot is October:confused:

Wanting to book the SS in for a conversion but will be coming down from Sydney. Just want to make sure I choose the best guy from the list.

Cheers for any feedback.:eyes:

That list is old.
There is also A&M Automotive in Wantirna.
And there is a guy in Woolongong that is fitting it too.
Yes october is about the earliest that you will get in.
The tanks still have not landede in AUS and the first shipment is all but gone allready.

[Dagabond]

Hemi guzzlin to much juice George...:beer:

Anyone know if the rebate has dropped back to 1K as of July 1st....Someone mentioned it to me the other day but I cant find anything on it...

[Berlina 5.7]

Regarding the govt rebate, it is still $2k for a used petrol car and $1k for a new car. GO to the site www.ausindustry.gov.au. The website clearly states that it is still $2k. You can call them on 13 28 46.
I have booked my car for vapour injection, gotta wait till September...with price of petrol getting higer, and will go through the roof in the next couple of years, especially with carbon tax, better get it converted now.....good luck

[blownba]

Yes, The rebate is still in place and will be so untill 2014.
The government allocated an extra 19 million towards it this year.

[BTA-MOTORSPORTS]

Been fitting and tuning a few of these systems latley,awsome stuff economy is second too none,you guys will be suprised with the power improvement.

[Evman]

Been fitting and tuning a few of these systems latley,awsome stuff economy is second too none,you guys will be suprised with the power improvement.

Any examples?

[holdenrules]

Liquid LPG injection is finally here.
Australian LPG Warehouse (www. lpgliquidinjection.com) have been working overtime in developing the first Liquid LPG injection system on the Australian market.
This system is more fuel efficient with an improvement on fuel consumption of up to 14% on any other vapour injection system.
Power gains are also another advantage due to the LPG being injected into the cylinder as a liquid.
The vehicles already developed are Holden LS1 5.7, 6.0ltr, Ford BA/BF 6cyl, Territory 1&2.
These vehicles are all emission approved.

I'm hanging out for when this system is developed for the Aussie 5.0 (VN - VT1) and the good ol' 3.8 V6 ... :6bow: :burnout:

[mmciau]

A question please?

Very cold, almost freezing morning and can I start an enjine where the liquid is injected into a very cold combustion chamber.

What process makes the liquid vapourise so that it will ignite?

Does the injector freeze over at all until heat from the enhine keeps the injector warm?

(In the vapour sytem, the engine coolant aids the vapourisation of the fuel)

Mike

[blownba]

Freezing is non existant of the injector or any parts of the system.
Freezing is not really the correct term anyway. the LPG only hits air once it is in the intake manifold and when the LPG changes state from a liquid to a vapour it absorbs a massive amount of energy in the form of heat. So all it is doing is absorbing the heat of the intake air.
The injectors do not freeze over.
This system is THE BEST fuel system available for cold starts. In Europe,in paticular the arctic circle this system will start a car in less cranks than what a petrol car will start at 1 deg C. All this at 20 below!!!
The system really is fool proof and has been used in Europe for many years now with excellent results. Warranty issues have been less than 1% of 1%!!!! thats .001%!!!
And thats with over 30,000 cars on European roads.
This is clearly the way of the future.
I still can't post links so I can't put pics up.
But there are pics on my website. But I think it would be against forum rules to talk up anything to do with my business without being a sponser.

[Da Burb]

Seriously looking at this for my Suburban.
I have a feeling once someone see's my engine bay...they might not be interested.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v35/hquick/P2290002.jpg

Are there any DIY kits available for installation by competent tradespeople?
How does someone go about doing this?
If not....has anyone converted a Suburban?

[T2000]

Hi Guys...

You were correct about there being an installer in Wollongong. (First in NSW?)

Kurt at Australian LP Gas.

Called in there yesterday.

Kurt really knows his stuff and was able to show me a couple of systems in the workshop. A vapour injected setup (not ideal IMHO) and the new Liquid injected setup.

All of these are now available for LS1,LS2,L76 and L98.

The Liquid injected setup is about $500 more than the Vapour injected setup. But increases in fuel economy of about 20% (should almost be Litre for Litre the same as PULP). still make this $$$ attractive. And the LI system is MUCH neater than VI systems (almost factory look).

Approx cost is $5000 depending on tank selection.

The bonus is Increase in performance Liquid Injected LPG vs PULP.
Kurt was telling me about an no mods BA XR6 Turbo which was getting 18-20kW more at the wheels on LI vs PULP.

I am convinced and have booked in for the first week of October. (maybe earlier depending on kit avail and cancellations)

I will report back with a review and photos when completed.


PS My previous ride was a VL commo with a Gas Research Throttle Body Injected (Vapour - obviously) LPG system.

The VL was 100K old when converted and had over 350K on the clock when sold. System was straight LPG (No ULP at all). 250K cheap maintenance free kilometres on BBQ juice :)

I'm a big believer in LPG !!!

Roll on October.


Cheers

Chris

[Da Burb]

Been searching but can't find any info on what tanks are available.
Thinking I'd use a couple of tanks under the Burb in place of the fuel tank and go dedicated LPG.
My current tank is 160L.

[DaveHAT]

A question for anyone able to answer it ... would it be possible to convert a LPG vapour injection setup to LPG liquid injection system without a great deal of admin?

Are the 2 nothing alike when it comes to componentry?

Would it require a complete reinstallation to convert an vapour injected car to liquid injection?

[ratter]

Pretty much nothing is the same including the tank.

[blownba]

Thats right. there is very little between the two systems would be the same. So you would be paying full price for a conversion, if not more if we had to remove the VSI stuff.
I had someone send me a PM about the system. I am sorry but I cannot PM you back as I have not got above 10 posts yet, sorry.
If you google JTG I am sure you will come up with a list of workshops doing it.

I did meet Kurt too. great guy and very passionate about his work. You will be well off going with him for your conversion.

[Da Burb]

Info seems very vague on these systems as yet.
I just called Australian Gas Warehouse and was told I'd be needing a universal kit which won't be available for around 6 months.
I guess the guy was busy because he was in a hurry to get off the phone.
:toetap:

[michaels1v8]

So no installers in Perth yet for liquid injection?

Sorry if I missed it but what sized tanks are possible and how much space would be lost in the boot?

Would be cool to have the choice of both. Extending the range of a car and not compromising the level of economy.

Exciting stuff I reckon.

[T2000]

Installers in Perth... No Idea... check with the manufacturer/ distributor (Australian LPG Warehouse) to see whether they are selling to or have trained anyone in WA.
Maybe PM Ben Lee who works for Australian LPG Warehouse.

Tanks:
http://www.australianlpgwarehouse.com.au/icom.htm

http://www.icomitalia.it/lang1/tank.html

Because of the VE's plastic spare wheel carrier/ insert I was looking at putting one of these underneath with a space saver on top!

Little / No loss of boot space.

(Talking to my installer on Friday about this.)

External Toroidal Tank 81lt. Capacity 680mm X 270mm Replace Underneath spare wheel on S/Wagon

http://www.icomitalia.it/lang1/images/p011_1_00.png

Chris

[smokey777]

any in Brisbane?

[thefightback]

Force Fed Gas in Perth apparently do it. I emailed them over a week ago but didnt get a reply.

http://www.forcefedgas.com.au/performance.html

[michaels1v8]

Cheers for the details guys

Ultimately if I could get a system installed and not lose any boot space then that would be the go.

Intereseting Idea with mounting one in the wheel well and using a space saver:)

Might just wait until someone else gets in done to their commodore and hopefully they will put up some pics :1peek:

[Da Burb]

I'm planning on removing my petrol tank and installing a couple or 3 80ltr tanks in it's place.
Is there a limit to size/number of tanks?

[thefightback]

Got the quote back from FFG:

The cost to convert your vehicle to lpg is $4800, This is for a prins injection system with a 76lt tank and the filler goes inside the filler flap.

Thats for my VY Berlina.

[T2000]

Got the quote back from FFG:

The cost to convert your vehicle to lpg is $4800, This is for a prins injection system with a 76lt tank and the filler goes inside the filler flap.

Thats for my VY Berlina.

Are you sure that this system is Liquid Injected?
I read through all of the information on the link that you provided...
And I couldn't see any indication that the LPG was injected as a liquid rather than a gas.
google
I just googled "prins injection system" and got this:

http://www.prinslpgnetwork.com/productprofile.html

"This second-generation gas injection system is based on a vapour LPG injection that is injected sequentially in the engine"

Sorry mate but I think you are on the wrong track.

Make sure you are getting what you want (Liquid Injected)

Chris

[FORCEFEDGAS]

This is a Vapour injection system

[Highway]

Interesting with the VE wagon now they have raised the floor at the rear there is heaps of extra room in the wheel well.

Once the fitting is sorted they should be able to fit a much larger donut tank or fit the standard size and maybe a space saver wheel as well will fit under the floor.

Who knows at this stage !!

Mike

[thefightback]

Are you sure that this system is Liquid Injected?
I read through all of the information on the link that you provided...
And I couldn't see any indication that the LPG was injected as a liquid rather than a gas.
google
I just googled "prins injection system" and got this:

http://www.prinslpgnetwork.com/productprofile.html

"This second-generation gas injection system is based on a vapour LPG injection that is injected sequentially in the engine"

Sorry mate but I think you are on the wrong track.

Make sure you are getting what you want (Liquid Injected)
Chris

Oops. Sorry, my fault, got them mixed up :rolleyes:

Dont think i can do it for a while anyway as my warranty specifically says it will not cover lpg cars.

[lumina ss]

Booked the adventra in, will be very interesting me thinks

[Calais V 6.0]

Booked the adventra in, will be very interesting me thinks

Whens yours getting done Lumina?

[German Statesman]

I'm planning on removing my petrol tank and installing a couple or 3 80ltr tanks in it's place.
Is there a limit to size/number of tanks?


There are height and departure angle restrictions you must stick to. A good LPG installer with a long, successful background and checkable references (happy repeat customers) will be the person to talk to.

See if you can source an auxilliary tank from the states and use 2 x APA A86 tanks for the LPG - this will give you 138L of LPG if my memory serves me correctly - and an aux tank of around 70L would be perfectly adequate.

[Dr.Gas]

Well boys let me tell you that liquid injection is the most exciting development in the LPG industry since.............well ever! So much so I have jumped ship to join the team at Australian LPG Warehouse to help bring JTG to the masses. Can't wait to get my fingers on this stuff, look out people game on!
Dr.Gas

[Berlina 5.7]

I got my 5.7 booked in for vapour injection on sept 11.(the date alone is making think to change the date) I am still sitting on the fence as to whether i should cancel and go liquid injection. I have read all the other threads regarding how safe it is, but i am still paranoid as it operates under much more pressure, and it is this pressure that allows it to stay liquid all the way to the engine. What if a pipe bursts, injector leaks what are the consequences of Liquid LPG pouring into the engine bay. I have read about the safety features like shut off valves, but accidents do happen. House fires happen due to electrical faults, cars breakdown and planes that are safer than cars do crash..I have read how liquid injection has been tested overseas, but who knows the truth, just because someone says so doesn't mean its true. sorry for sounding so negative, i just cant help thinking that way. I carry my 2 little kids in the car. I cant help feeling that the vapour injection is a proven system and there have been no problems with them. I would like to go liquid, but i need someone to convince me and give me a bit of reassurance....Thanks

[mmciau]

I got my 5.7 booked in for vapour injection on sept 11.(the date alone is making think to change the date) I am still sitting on the fence as to whether i should cancel and go liquid injection. I have read all the other threads regarding how safe it is, but i am still paranoid as it operates under much more pressure, and it is this pressure that allows it to stay liquid all the way to the engine. What if a pipe bursts, injector leaks what are the consequences of Liquid LPG pouring into the engine bay. I have read about the safety features like shut off valves, but accidents do happen. House fires happen due to electrical faults, cars breakdown and planes that are safer than cars do crash..I have read how liquid injection has been tested overseas, but who knows the truth, just because someone says so doesn't mean its true. sorry for sounding so negative, i just cant help thinking that way. I carry my 2 little kids in the car. I cant help feeling that the vapour injection is a proven system and there have been no problems with them. I would like to go liquid, but i need someone to convince me and give me a bit of reassurance....Thanks

Just as an observer to these comments I can only suggest that the installers of the systems are bound by Australian Standards and their lives wouldn't be worth living if the Authorities found their installations below Standard and at risk. My vapour system has 'cut off' valves at the tank and the system was checked and upgraded with newer valve controls at its 10 year inspection date.

Regarding potential disasters in an engine bay or wherever and whenever, you can only continue to believe that the system is as safe and secure as possible. Outside of those parameters, you may be the victim of an 'Act of God' and there is nothing you and I can do about those.

Mike

[Evman]

:dancenana:

I'm very much looking forward to getting my car converted when I get home to Perth... I've been following Liquid Injection for close to 2 years now and I'm stoked it's finally out and it's getting such a good wrap. For those who think gas is weak, it's the average Joe's best bet at holding onto his (or her) V8 as fuel prices are only going to get higher. I'm all for it.

[T2000]

:dancenana:

I'm very much looking forward to getting my car converted when I get home to Perth...:errr:

Mate you might have to get it done before you go home. From what some of the other guys from the Wild Wild West have said, I Don't think that there are any installers over there yet.

I hope I am wrong for your sake.

[Evman]

:errr:

Mate you might have to get it done before you go home. From what some of the other guys from the Wild Wild West have said, I Don't think that there are any installers over there yet.

I hope I am wrong for your sake.

Oh damn it! Surely it'd only be a matter of time though...

[T2000]

Oh damn it! Surely it'd only be a matter of time though...

Yeah undoubtedly it will get there eventually, might want to check with the importers / distributors : Australian LPG Warehouse in Melbourne.
They are training the Gas Installers.
Perhaps they could tell you who has been (or will be) trained and when.

[blownba]

Unfortunatly there are no installers interstate, except Woolongong.
There may be additional training done after christmas or so.
DR Gas. You traitor!!!
Aus LPG warehouse have the industry by the throat. Between Hilbert, Mick, Ben and now Bill, they have the best R&D team in the country, BAR NONE!!!
The experience between them is phenominal and watch this space to see what eventuates.
Before long there are gonna be some high HP cars running liquid and a race car too!!

[smokey777]

i will have to keep an eye out for when they come to Brisbane. as if the 2000 rebate is there my missus is keen to go Liquid LPG in me SS

[slimy]

Anyone have the number for Australian LP GAS at Wollongong.

Thanks

[forman]

02 42271991 there you go mate or www.ozgas.org

[Insane253]

so you guys are paying $5,000 for this system so that you SAVE money on fuel?

[Da Burb]

Are you paying nearly $300 to fill your tank?
If you are....I'm sure you can understand why I for one wish to convert.

[saaz]

A range of factors, depends what you are after. Personally I like keeping V8 performance the same or better than standard and getting running cost benefits. You also get to keep the larger car. Previous car was a VQ 5 litre, running costs of a 4 cylinder performave of an 8. An LPG conversion is an investment that gets a return every time you use it, as opposed to other modifications that lose money over time. Over 350,000kms I think I got my money back x times over in the old car.

[brenten88]

I had the old Mixer system in my VL and I couldnt fault it, and the money it saved me I regret that I sold that car, now my next car is gonna be a V8 and with the fact of the vapour and liquide systems im pritty comfordable buying a petrol guzzler :)

[lumina ss]

let me see I save $1 a liter that means 70 odd bucks a tank hmmm, no power loss, nah I cant do it I need the space in the boot for the 1 time a week my missus goes shopping. cet a furkin cab charge card and send her on her way

[saaz]

I had a more modern computer controlled mixer system in the VQ. Forgot to mention the car before the VQ was an XF 3.3 auto (not an ex taxi) I had it for 470,000kms. Performance was never an issue with the XF, as it did not have much :) The body was getting a bit sad, but the drivetrain was still great considering.

[loudvtss]

I just called my installer and they said there's a hold up at the docks and they won't receiv anything until the end of the month. He couldn't tell me the tank size options I have as I'm considering the donut tank.

[German Statesman]

so you guys are paying $5,000 for this system so that you SAVE money on fuel?

Very smart compared to the idiots that spend $13k extra for the diesel engine in the 200 series Landcruiser just to pay 40c a litre more to fill up...

[loudvtss]

so you guys are paying $5,000 for this system so that you SAVE money on fuel?

It's actually $3000 after the rebate. Considering a saving of about $50 per week it pays itself off in 1 year.

[whitels1ss]

Very smart compared to the idiots that spend $13k extra for the diesel engine in the 200 series Landcruiser just to pay 40c a litre more to fill up...

That is so true, and they are rotten smelly things too! :spew:

[FireArc]

It's actually $3000 after the rebate. Considering a saving of about $50 per week it pays itself off in 1 year.

And in WA we get a further $1000 from the state so it is only $2k out of pocket over here...

[sandmanls1]

this is interesting on chrysler's though bet some hire car drivers are happy.

wonder if they do LS1's

http://carpoint.com.au/car-review/2949067.aspx

[beaver_roadkill]

this is interesting on chrysler's though bet some hire car drivers are happy.

wonder if they do LS1's

http://carpoint.com.au/car-review/2949067.aspx

<laughs> In the article they're saying that VSI is the latest in gas conversions, yet in this thread we're talking about LSI :P

[blownba]

And anything that is done at Parnell is gonna be a dissapointment for the owner.
The prins gear they use is good when its in the right hands its just that Parnell have NFI what they are doing and have stuffed alot of cars that I alone have seen, let alone the others I have read or heard of.
But yes they do have a LS1 kit available, if fitted correctly and remapped by someone good it will work well enough.
My preference would be to use the same injectors they do (Kehien) as they are by far the best VSI injectors on the market, but use a different ECU.
The Prins stuff runs external injector emulator modules which are problematic and can be unreliable.
The Prins regulator is not bad either. I have been told of a set up where only 3 of those reg's were enough to power 1000kw 16 injector monster, but it was running a GOOD engine management system.

[JohnW]

I've booked my VE GTS in for LPG liquid injection at EziGas. Went for donut tank in the spare wheel well as I couldnt stand to see an ugly taxi tank every time I opened the boot. Usable capacity is 50 litres but I can live with that. Plan to carry a can of moose for emergency like a lot of the euros do.

My car has a mafless tune so it will be interesting to see how that interacts with the gas piggyback computer.

I believe the liquid injection arival date has stretched out to September now. Doesnt really effect me too much as the earliest I could get in was December 16.

So hopefully the Liquid injection system will yeld more power then petrol. That would be great but realistically if I keep the present power level and similar economy, I will be more then happy. Cant wait to see some dyno numbers come in though.

[255-LS1]

cool keep us posted john

[Highway]

I've booked my VE GTS in for LPG liquid injection at EziGas. Went for donut tank in the spare wheel well as I couldnt stand to see an ugly taxi tank every time I opened the boot. Usable capacity is 50 litres but I can live with that. Plan to carry a can of moose for emergency like a lot of the euros do.

My car has a mafless tune so it will be interesting to see how that interacts with the gas piggyback computer.

I believe the liquid injection arival date has stretched out to September now. Doesnt really effect me too much as the earliest I could get in was December 16.

So hopefully the Liquid injection system will yeld more power then petrol. That would be great but realistically if I keep the present power level and similar economy, I will be more then happy. Cant wait to see some dyno numbers come in though.

Will be good to hear some power figures.

I am going for the donut tank as well when the wagon finally arrives.

Did they mention any dramas fitting the tank in the spare wheel well.
From what I have been told because of the plastic well they where looking at either making up a metal bracket or replacing the whole well in metal.

What is this moose stuff you mentioned ? ( Gas in a can )

Early October is the earliest I have heard someone getting the Liquid Gas fitted to their VE.
They are still waiting for the tanks to arrive.

Mike

[matt159]

can anyone tell me if this restricts what I as a home mechanic can do to my car?
Im a big fan of doing my own upgrades and work from home time to time when i get the funds, although i have not yet worked on a LS1 yet. im thinking if i install this system i would no longer be able to remove for example the intake manifold as im guessing the gas lines to the injectors would have to be removed?? last thing i would want is to be undoing the gas lines- not the safest thing to be doing if your unqualified. then i imagine you need someone qualified to undo and redo the gas lines?

cheers
matt

[FORCEFEDGAS]

And anything that is done at Parnell is gonna be a dissapointment for the owner.
The prins gear they use is good when its in the right hands its just that Parnell have NFI what they are doing and have stuffed alot of cars that I alone have seen, let alone the others I have read or heard of.
But yes they do have a LS1 kit available, if fitted correctly and remapped by someone good it will work well enough.
My preference would be to use the same injectors they do (Kehien) as they are by far the best VSI injectors on the market, but use a different ECU.
The Prins stuff runs external injector emulator modules which are problematic and can be unreliable.
The Prins regulator is not bad either. I have been told of a set up where only 3 of those reg's were enough to power 1000kw 16 injector monster, but it was running a GOOD engine management system.

The Prins system does take a bit of getting used to to tune as you cant just auto calibrate it like most others but once you know how to do it correctly i believe its a better way to tune them than the auto ones.

We made 500hp at the wheels with 2 regs and 16 yellow injectors, the single set of injectors did the job for a while but were basically maxed out.That was also with a single line from the tank. But thats using a programable ecu.

[blownba]

The Prins system does take a bit of getting used to to tune as you cant just auto calibrate it like most others but once you know how to do it correctly i believe its a better way to tune them than the auto ones.

We made 500hp at the wheels with 2 regs and 16 yellow injectors, the single set of injectors did the job for a while but were basically maxed out.That was also with a single line from the tank. But thats using a programable ecu.

Yes I know who you are. And I have been folowing your car with interest for some time now. You have done bloody well.
I also heard about the Dodge Challenger running some incredible amounts of power. Can't wait to see that.


As for the Donut tank in the VE. Are you sure they can do it???
I am not aware of any option for donut tanks in the VE. Liquid injection you can only get a 80L tank behind the seat.
The plastic floor in the spare wheel well is a problem If they do make a mounting system, I don't know how they are gonna keep it under the floor without having to gain engineers approval????
Sounds weird to me. :confused:

[255-LS1]

far out 500hp that is awesome.

I am under the impression that the LIQUID injection uses the factory computer, so does that mean you have to run the same tune for petrol and LPG, or can it be tune indipendantly. Also does anyone know what the average lead time is for an istallation on say a VY sedan, looking at donut tank.

Cheers

[JohnW]

I have had confirmation that there is a donut style tank for liquid injection systems so thats not a problem. In relation to the VE plastic wheel well, I must admit I didnt get an explanation on how they were going to do it but the space is plenty big enough to fit the tank and the plastic seems very strong. Personally I cant see it being a problem afterall they just hang the exposed tank under one tonners without an issue. Worst case scinario , I need to make a custom wheel well. I can live with that. It looks like an easy task to remove the existing wheel well and I am sure robust supports could soon be fabricated. So it adds say $500 to the install. Still well worth it.


far out 500hp that is awesome.

I am under the impression that the LIQUID injection uses the factory computer, so does that mean you have to run the same tune for petrol and LPG, or can it be tune indipendantly. Also does anyone know what the average lead time is for an istallation on say a VY sedan, looking at donut tank.

Cheers

I believe it picks up the injecter pulse from the stock computer. Gas AFR can then be fine tuned from there via the gas computer. The big thing is what you with your timing, knock sensitivity, and various other peramiters that tend to retard timing. This is still all handled from the factory computer. Bottom line is that in most cases, the factory computer wont need to touched as timing and knock is setup for the crap octane ULP. But this is where it gets very intesting. Good tuners are going to be able take advantage of the higher octane levels and more importantly the extremly cold fuel charge produced by supplying liquid LPG at the injectors. I can see that good tuners will setup the high octane timing table for gas and the low octane timing table for ULP.

[FORCEFEDGAS]

Yeah a heard the boys got the dodge going the other day. Its going to be wild. Building a new engine for the ute so should be a handful when its back on the roadgure. What sort of power figures are you getting from the liquid injection. Has anyone run them thru a programable ecu yet?

Who is going to be the distributors over here in perth?

[255-LS1]

yes definantly john will be interesting to see how the tuners go would APS be the best in vic for tune considering they are installers

also anyone know average lead time

cheers camo

[T2000]

Hi Guys....

My L98 will be getting a baseline tune from Oztrack in 10 days.

Liquid Injected LPG 6/7 October.

Then back to Oztrack for a full tune.

As Steve (Oztrack) explained it to me the ECU will quickly "learn its' way Up or Down through the fuel table" in the ECU. Therefore safe and maximum performance on either fuel. But will perform better on LPG.

I think that is what you were refering to when you mentioned the "high octane table........"

Can't wait:eyes:

Lead time in Wollongong is approx 3 months, ATM.

[blownba]

Yeah a heard the boys got the dodge going the other day. Its going to be wild. Building a new engine for the ute so should be a handful when its back on the roadgure. What sort of power figures are you getting from the liquid injection. Has anyone run them thru a programable ecu yet?

Who is going to be the distributors over here in perth?

Don't know who they are gonna put on in Perth but you can bet it will be only fitters they deal with regularly.
I will be running it through a aftermarket ECU and go racing with it.
If you wan't the details PM me.

[JohnW]

Hi Guys....

My L98 will be getting a baseline tune from Oztrack in 10 days.

Liquid Injected LPG 6/7 October.

Then back to Oztrack for a full tune.

As Steve (Oztrack) explained it to me the ECU will quickly "learn its' way Up or Down through the fuel table" in the ECU. Therefore safe and maximum performance on either fuel. But will perform better on LPG.

I think that is what you were refering to when you mentioned the "high octane table........"

Can't wait:eyes:

Lead time in Wollongong is approx 3 months, ATM.

Steve is talking about fuel trims and the ECUs ability to self tune via the the long term and short term fuel trims. I must admit, I am still a bit hazzy on how the fuel trims will handle lpg as your O2 sensors are narrow band units optimized for a ULP running at an AFR of 14.7 I believe LPG runs at a different AFR so I dont know how fuel trims will handle this. It obvously can be done though and I am keen to find out how it will handle this.

In relation to the high octane table, this is a spark table and not self learning. This is where tuners will need to custom tune these tables to take full advantage of the 109 octane and cold fuel charge.


yes definantly john will be interesting to see how the tuners go would APS be the best in vic for tune considering they are installers

also anyone know average lead time

cheers camo

I am sure APS would be a solid choice considering they are both installers of LPG and have been tuning these engines for a long time now. I chose Ezigas because they are very experienced with the installation of these systems and also the branch is only a few doors away from my tuner. Both work well together so hopefully I good result will be achieved.

[ratter]

O2 sensors do not look for an air fuel ratio of 14.7 they look for lambda 1, which happens to be near enough to 14.7 on petrol and is the cleanest A/F ratio for emissions, but the perfect emission a/f ratio for gas is different to petrol, it is 15.5 but it is still lambda 1.
The ECU will not need to know what fuel it is running on, but it will make the approiate adjustments to the ltft and stfts to keep in at lambda 1 when in closed loop operation.

:)

[JohnW]

Good one Ratter. That expains it then. So when in PE, does the commanded AFR still follow or is the gas ecu used fine tune this?

[ratter]

There is no extra ECU used for the liquid gas systems.
The gas injectors are calibrated to match the gas flow requirements compared to the original petrol injector, they then will match the actual lambda value controlled by the computer.

If the car runs rich on petrol it will run rich on gas, if the car is tuned on petrol and acheives a straight fuel curve, it will do it on gas also

:)

[255-LS1]

that is some nice work there ratter, so basically if you got mafless, OTR bla bla bla and tune for petrol and then got liquid injection fitted no tune touch up would be required, it would sort it out itself??

cheers

[estate]

A mate here in perth has been toying with these for a while just done a territory currently working with a turbo one and getting some great results last I spoke - hard to get hold of :confused:

[Black VU SS ute]

who in perth does liquid gas injection. i email the company for a place here in perth and got no reply.

[T2000]

who in perth does liquid gas injection. i email the company for a place here in perth and got no reply.

Already been asked in this thread... the answer was no installers outside of Victoria and only 1 in NSW.

If you read through you'll probably find more info than my one line answer including contact details for the distributors.

Good luck mate, I hope they don't keep you guys waiting too long.

[JohnW]

There is no extra ECU used for the liquid gas systems.
The gas injectors are calibrated to match the gas flow requirements compared to the original petrol injector, they then will match the actual lambda value controlled by the computer.

If the car runs rich on petrol it will run rich on gas, if the car is tuned on petrol and acheives a straight fuel curve, it will do it on gas also

:)

Didn’t realize there was no extra ECU with liquid injection. I presumed it would be controlled in a similar way to vapour injection.

So it sounds like injector calibration is going to be an important part of the equation especially when deviating from standard. I wonder if a simple line regulator will be used to fine tune the total flow.

[buz81]

I think earlier in the thread one of the engineers from the company producing the units said that the injectors are flow matched using a cap on the injector.

[ratter]

We have to remember that this technology is brand new to Australia and out cars, so the final product may vary slightly from 1 style of car to another, but at this stage, as mentioned injectors will be calibrated to match the petrol injectors so no ECU is required to drive them, just an injector signal from the existing petrol injectors. That means tuning should not be a problem unless mods done to the car require bigger petrol injectors. Tuning could also take into account the cooler combustion temps and higher octane rating of the gas and allow for more timing to be run which should result in more power than just on petrol.

The system does use a intake fuel pump, and inline regulator with a return line like a petrol system, so there may be some fine tuning in that, but I guess if the injectors are done correctly it may not be required.

ALPGW will have installers through out australia but it will take time to get them trained and at the momment I think there main concern is getting stock and developing approved systems, the rest should flow from there


I think earlier in the thread one of the engineers from the company producing the units said that the injectors are flow matched using a cap on the injector.


I believe the injectors are assembled to the required spec, by using a sized orifice (jet) to give the correct flow and will not be adjustable in the field, they may have to do this to pass certain emission requirements ????

[JohnW]

Makes sense that the injectors will be flow matched and and pre set to meet ADR emission requirements. It will be interesting to see if the standard reg will be adjustable. I am tipping it wont be adjustable as I think a preset pre set non adjustable fueling will part of the compliance requirements.

Thanks Ratter, you have helped me get my head around the fueling side of the system.

[ratter]

I'm glad I could be of help, I'm sure Ben will correct me if I'm wrong

[blownba]

You will be able to run post 2004 model cars with High flow injectors. Realistically any mod you do to the fuel system on a Jan 04 onwards engine needs to be emission certified once its done to pass euro 3.
But seeing that the JTG system will easily pass euro 4 with emissions, it would be safe to say that higher flowing calibrators, when tuned correctly, will still pass emission requirements.
Anyone seen most of the blown LS1 boys in the VE etc go to the trouble of gaining emissions once they have done their mods?????, assuming the supercharger manufacturer has not sold it as a complete kit that is certified.
Thats why this system has so much potential, no fuel map need be created in a piggy back system. We are not modefying fuel injector ms timing just the fuel type.
If the injectors are flow matched to the vehicles originals and the system is installed correctly than it seems to be the norm on all engines that the emissions FAR exceed that of petrol.

[255-LS1]

i was under the immpression that as LPG burns cleaner than petrol that the emmissions on LPG would not be an issue, but meh ive only played with old school LPG equiped cars so newer ones maybe a diff story all together

[blownba]

i was under the immpression that as LPG burns cleaner than petrol that the emmissions on LPG would not be an issue, but meh ive only played with old school LPG equiped cars so newer ones maybe a diff story all together

The emissions ARE cleaner. Alot cleaner with this system. Nearly all cars would pass Euro 4, when they only need to pass euro 3 when built after Jan' 04.

The problem lies with the new Australian design rules, stating that and modification of a vehicles fuel system or power output (built after jan 04) need to gain new emission approval.
Which means off to the Lab to do a drive cycle test.
Down here everyone sends their cars to be tested in Sydney.
Cause in Melbourne it'll cost more than a Grand or more for each car tested.
Whereas in Sydney its FREE!!!!!
Bloody lunacy isn't it??? I hope the powers that be do something about this in the future, cause to do odd cars built after 04 becomes a real issue to gain approval. I have a guy with a Volvo and a Alfa and a Barina etc... that are newer than 04 that are begging me to convert their vehicles. Converting them is not the issue, gaining approval is. My suppliers would not be interested in doing it for me as they would never sell anymore of those kits anyway, so there is no point wasting time and resources toward doing oddball cars.
And its not worth my while to truck the cars to Sydney and then flying up, doing the test and then trucking them back. Its easier to just add the $1500 to the cost of the conversion and getting it done at one of two places I know of in Melbourne.
But then the price to do these one offs for the first time would be extravagant, to say the least, and no one would end up doing it.
Bloody STUPID system that does not work for us down here. The Government want more people onto LPG as it is cleaner but then go and throw a spanner in the works by making the only testers in Melbourne privately based so they can charge whatever the hell they want. If I could get passed this, I would be doing a massive amount of "odd" cars, which a converted daily in Europe and run perfectly well. And then there is the fact that emission certified systems are only tested on the first one that the supplier has taken to them. Any slight variation in the kit or the way it is fitted, renderer's them non compliant.

And don't even get me started about diesel gas. If you own a 04 onwards diesel and you want it on gas. FORGET IT!!!
There is currently no ADR that will cover any diesel gas vehicles built after Jan 04. Convert your newer diesel and its rendered un roadworthy.
I mean WTF????
This system is Flawed. The general base of it is sound its just like most legislation from the AUS government, it doesn't work in practice.
Someone in the halls of power needs to get off their bum and sort this. There are large amount of people that fall into this category that are dying to convert their vehicles, save a bit of dosh, and do good for the environment, yet stupid circumstances like this are blocking them from being able.
Emission certification sucks. And at its core is fundamentally flawed.

Thats enough rant for one post. And I apologize for carrying on so, but this situation has me perplexed at the ineptitude of emission standards in this country.
:feedtroll:

[T2000]

The emissions ARE cleaner. Alot cleaner with this system. Nearly all cars would pass Euro 4, when they only need to pass euro 3 when built after Jan' 04.

The problem lies with the new Australian design rules, stating that and modification of a vehicles fuel system or power output (built after jan 04) need to gain new emission approval.
Which means off to the Lab to do a drive cycle test.
Down here everyone sends their cars to be tested in Sydney.
Cause in Melbourne it'll cost more than a Grand or more for each car tested.
Whereas in Sydney its FREE!!!!!
Bloody lunacy isn't it??? I hope the powers that be do something about this in the future, cause to do odd cars built after 04 becomes a real issue to gain approval. I have a guy with a Volvo and a Alfa and a Barina etc... that are newer than 04 that are begging me to convert their vehicles. Converting them is not the issue, gaining approval is. My suppliers would not be interested in doing it for me as they would never sell anymore of those kits anyway, so there is no point wasting time and resources toward doing oddball cars.
And its not worth my while to truck the cars to Sydney and then flying up, doing the test and then trucking them back. Its easier to just add the $1500 to the cost of the conversion and getting it done at one of two places I know of in Melbourne.
But then the price to do these one offs for the first time would be extravagant, to say the least, and no one would end up doing it.
Bloody STUPID system that does not work for us down here. The Government want more people onto LPG as it is cleaner but then go and throw a spanner in the works by making the only testers in Melbourne privately based so they can charge whatever the hell they want. If I could get passed this, I would be doing a massive amount of "odd" cars, which a converted daily in Europe and run perfectly well. And then there is the fact that emission certified systems are only tested on the first one that the supplier has taken to them. Any slight variation in the kit or the way it is fitted, renderer's them non compliant.

And don't even get me started about diesel gas. If you own a 04 onwards diesel and you want it on gas. FORGET IT!!!
There is currently no ADR that will cover any diesel gas vehicles built after Jan 04. Convert your newer diesel and its rendered un roadworthy.
I mean WTF????
This system is Flawed. The general base of it is sound its just like most legislation from the AUS government, it doesn't work in practice.
Someone in the halls of power needs to get off their bum and sort this. There are large amount of people that fall into this category that are dying to convert their vehicles, save a bit of dosh, and do good for the environment, yet stupid circumstances like this are blocking them from being able.
Emission certification sucks. And at its core is fundamentally flawed.

Thats enough rant for one post. And I apologize for carrying on so, but this situation has me perplexed at the ineptitude of emission standards in this country.
:feedtroll:

Hey Mate...

Sounds like you need to send an email to the Honourable Member of Midnight Oil. If you want to start a petition and harass some overpaid arse polisher, I'll sign first!

[VILLAIN]

I want to get this convertion done but don't know where to go. can i get a phone number or an address of a place in the south east of Melb area.
Thanks

[SSWAGON]

Go to Auto Gas Injection in new street frankston:)

[ratter]

As mentioned autogas injection in new street

[blownba]

Hey Mate...

Sounds like you need to send an email to the Honourable Member of Midnight Oil. If you want to start a petition and harass some overpaid arse polisher, I'll sign first!

I don't reckon I'd waste my time mate.
I have better luck having people listening to me on Forums than I would with the bloomin pollies.
To me its not rocket science.
They can see Victoria, melbourne in paticular that has been a power in LPG for a long time, AND the largest number of big suppliers that develop their own kits, yet we have no facilities to be able to do this without pain or financial loss unless we are one of these big boys. They usally send 3 or 4 cars at once so they only go up there for one day.
I wouldn't mind lossing half a day or so to get a car certified if it means I can accomodate some of these low volume vehicle owners and then everyone can be happy.
I don't like to say to customers that there are certain cars I [B]cannot[B] do. In reality, any vehicle can be converted sucessfully if you have the time and patience. I love doing cars no-one has any idea about.


Anyway I'll shut up know.


By the way, I don't think there will be a VX kit available for a while, and if your not on someones list already you'll be waiting past November at least.

[jlowe5173]

G'day guys, Just new to the forum, so go easy on me please!

I have just bought an LX8 Adventra, and have booked it in at A&M Automotive for the Liquid system (quoted $5000, mid-november).

Is there anything I should be doing to the car before or while I get this done? I'm mainly after Economy, however any power gains are a plus. The car is standard, and has done about 75,000.

I love this car, feels so smooth compared to my last ride!

Cheers,
Justin

[ratter]

I would make sure you have good spark plugs and air filter and either have your o2's checked or replaced

[Highway]

Does anyone know if you always get more injector noise using lpg than on petrol or does it depend on the brand of system and type of injectors used.

Thanks for any comments.

Mike

[buz81]

Does anyone know if you always get more injector noise using lpg than on petrol or does it depend on the brand of system and type of injectors used.

Thanks for any comments.

Mike

For now ther is only one brand AFAIK. This is a completely new system that works in a very different way to the vapour systems. The only people who could advise you on the injector noise would the installers who have already worked on the system. I think they are using siemens injectors which are usually a good piece of kit. The best way to find out is the installers.

[Chopper]

Does anyone know if these conversions are available for the 5.0L series?
Would like to convert a series 1 VT clubbie :)

[blownba]

ITS FINALLY HERE!!!
The kits are ready to be sent out. We should be seeing them on our doorstep tomorrow or Monday at the latest!!!

[T2000]

ITS FINALLY HERE!!!
The kits are ready to be sent out. We should be seeing them on our doorstep tomorrow or Monday at the latest!!!

That's great knews mate.

Should mean no delay with my VE !!!

:woohoo::woohoo:

[loudvtss]

ITS FINALLY HERE!!!
The kits are ready to be sent out. We should be seeing them on our doorstep tomorrow or Monday at the latest!!!

If you convert a VZ SS can you shoot me a pm. I'd be interested to see it and feel how it goes...

Thanks

[T2000]

Regarding the options for VE owners wanting a liquid injected LPG install.

You now have the option of using a Donut tank in the spare wheel well.

This was not previously available .

After speaking to both Australian LPG Warehouse and my installer... I can confirm that it is now available!

So a 80 Litre tank in the Wheel well. (65 usable litres)
A can of "tyre slime"
NO LOSS OF BOOT.

[Highway]

Regarding the options for VE owners wanting a liquid injected LPG install.

You now have the option of using a Donut tank in the spare wheel well.

This was not previously available .

After speaking to both Australian LPG Warehouse and my installer... I can confirm that it is now available!

So a 80 Litre tank in the Wheel well. (65 usable litres)
A can of "tyre slime"
NO LOSS OF BOOT.

Yeh just got off the phone from Kurt.

Looking good for October.

Wagons included.

[blownba]

Yeah I have seen the donut option for the VE and it looks fantastic.
There is also the option of a bigger donut tank that will mean getting rid of the plastic spare wheel tub altogether and fitting a tank mount tub that will let a bigger donut fit. It will hang about an inch or two lower than the original plastic tub.
But it will allow you to run a space saver spare and still have the boot floor level!!!!

[T2000]

Yeah I have seen the donut option for the VE and it looks fantastic.
There is also the option of a bigger donut tank that will mean getting rid of the plastic spare wheel tub altogether and fitting a tank mount tub that will let a bigger donut fit. It will hang about an inch or two lower than the original plastic tub.
But it will allow you to run a space saver spare and still have the boot floor level!!!!

I wasn't aware that this was an option...
Is this available through Aus LPG Warehouse?
Is it much dearer than the standard toroidal?

Cheers

Chris

[ratter]

Is this available through Aus LPG Warehouse?


Yes, ALPGW is the only supplier of liquid injection LPG in Aust

[T2000]

Yes, ALPGW is the only supplier of liquid injection LPG in Aust


Thanks Ratter... I kinda realise this.

I was really asking whether all of the mounting hardware etc are ALPGW supplied items... or are they fabricated by the installers / local engineers.

Sorry if my question was a bit vague :confused:

If I need my installer to vary the order to include bigger tank / different installation hardware then NOW is the time. (4 weeks to install)

BUT if there is a large $ premium, then I probably will stick with the 80L toroidal and the tyre repair can.


Cheers

[pk2k78]

After a billion phone calls (and none in return and lots of delays) and 4 months of waiting, I think I'm getting closer to an actual install!

I was down as the Alloytec development car but apparently they have done "bucket loads". Does anyone know if this is the case? Now my price is going to jump up :( Not happy

[blownba]

yeah they have done quite a few i believe. Being such a popular car it was bound to be done early on in the piece.

[greencut]

Going on the last post I assume they have already started installing? I know early July was the original start time but wasnt there some delays? I'm booked in to have a WL statesman 6.0 litre done at APS mid Sept. so I'm hoping dates havent been pushed back. Looking forward to fuel savings and a nice increase in power (having edit done at the same time).

[JohnW]

What sort of tank are you going for Greencut?

[greencut]

I'll be requesting the donut tank as with three kids I need all the boot space I can. I think I was quoted $200 extra for that tank.

[Paulybehaved]

Can anyone tell me:

1. whether fitting a non-factory LPG system to a new Commodore will void the factory warranty? Has anyone had experience with warranty issues with Holden when they have installed a non-factory LPG system?

2. Do you get the engine serviced/tuned by Holden or the LPG installer?

[Wonky]

Can't answer #2 but I'm sure given that Holden have their own factory system that putting a non factory one in will void your engine warranty.

[ratter]

although not holden, most fitters can sell you a warranty for your engine after fitting LPG

[blownba]

I have just spoken to Bill (R+D dude at ALPGW and mate of mine) He told me that they are off to Perth in the morning to do a round of training there. So all you guys out west will be able to purchase this system before long. I will post details of the workshops involved as soon as they come to hand.
Adelaide or Sydney should be next.
And there are some pretty exciting things in the pipeline, but I won't give away much yet.
The alloytec has been sorted and Bill has managed to hide the injectors under the engine cover completely so you can hardly trell its on gas. looks awesome and apparently runs like a dream.

[michaels1v8]

I have just spoken to Bill (R+D dude at ALPGW and mate of mine) He told me that they are off to Perth in the morning to do a round of training there. So all you guys out west will be able to purchase this system before long. I will post details of the workshops involved as soon as they come to hand.
Adelaide or Sydney should be next.
And there are some pretty exciting things in the pipeline, but I won't give away much yet.
The alloytec has been sorted and Bill has managed to hide the injectors under the engine cover completely so you can hardly trell its on gas. looks awesome and apparently runs like a dream.

Woohoo:smilesandbanana: Will have to look into it one day in the future

[T2000]

And there are some pretty exciting things in the pipeline, but I won't give away much yet.


C'mon blownba... don't be like that... we can all keep a secret !!!
(can't we fellas?)
I promise I won't tell anyone!

I am hoping that whatever is "in the pipeline" can be fitted / upgraded to existing systems? - Performance enhancements ???

My system is fitted in 3 weeks... am I the first LILPG L98 LS1 member ???

[blownba]

I am doing a VE calais 6.0L on Thursday. he is a memeber here too.
I have some pics of the injectors for a BA turbo and the tank for the same sedan.
here:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/P1010045.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/P1010037.jpg

Post pics and results of finished product next tuesday.

[Highway]

I am doing a VE calais 6.0L on Thursday. he is a memeber here too.
I have some pics of the injectors for a BA turbo and the tank for the same sedan.
here:

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/P1010045.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/P1010037.jpg

Post pics and results of finished product next tuesday.

Be good to see some shots of the finished install.

Hopefully the member will give some info on the economy/performance of his car.

Only 4-5 weeks before the Liquid Gas is in my car.

Are you installing the 80ltre donut tank in the Calais ?
Be interested to see some shots of the installed donut.

Tossing up whether to still go with the 80ltre or go all the way and replace the whole wheel well ( if available ) with the bigger tank.

Mike

[greencut]

APS in Frankston will be doing liquid injection on our WL Statesman (6.0lt) on Wednesday. We are going with the 50lt usable donut tank and at the same time getting a catback system and tune. It will be dynoed before and after conversion and edit, so should see some interesting results. Will post a review once its been done.

[mmjlw]

So can anyone confirm if the Liquid Injection is out yet and if so where in melbourne can i get it I have rang a few places and they say they can't give a date yet..

[scorpiojragon]

Did you say coming to WA??? You faarkn beeauuty. Been waiting years for this. Have a LS2 Bill Lee HDT Improved VE Maloo Ute and AMC 360 Rambler Hornet. Both getting GenTT and Liquid Gas Injection. Maloo First though. Last time I got this excited Hilbert told me they were only thinking of training in WA. I said train me, train me. I'll do it. Then I remembered Im a rigger and can only lift heavy things, DOH ! Have the coin, want it yesterday, where can I drop the MALOON8IK off ?? Please.:bow:

[ratter]

So can anyone confirm if the Liquid Injection is out yet and if so where in melbourne can i get it I have rang a few places and they say they can't give a date yet..

Yes it is out.
Most gas installers are booked for months ahead, and stock supplies is a problem, but being updated all the time.
The vehicle list is growing every week.

[Highway]

APS in Frankston will be doing liquid injection on our WL Statesman (6.0lt) on Wednesday. We are going with the 50lt usable donut tank and at the same time getting a catback system and tune. It will be dynoed before and after conversion and edit, so should see some interesting results. Will post a review once its been done.

From all reports there should be a good result.
Will be interesting to read your review

Mike

[sheeks84]

HI all.

I am picking up my SS-V Sportwagon, hopefully soon, and had a few questions regarding the LPG conversion.

The first is with regard to the option of the modified boot floor, as mentioned earlier in the thread, for the fitment of a larger tank and space-saver. What kind of dollars would i be up for? I really would like to keep a spare, as i drive my cars down some not too great roads at times.

Secondly, with the tune, will i only be able to run on LPG, or can i get a dual-tune of sorts, one for performance on fuel, the other for the LPG? I would still like the car to have a bit of poke. I have on oder a cat-back, otr and under-driven pulleys for it.

And lastly, who in Victoria, in the Eastern Suburbs, does these installs? I would like to get in contact with someone in the know and talk about my optios.

I really like the idea of an LPG V8, best of both worlds. Never had an LPG car before, so any thoughts or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[perryr]

And lastly, who in Victoria, in the Eastern Suburbs, does these installs? I would like to get in contact with someone in the know and talk about my optios.


Cheers

I noticed that the "Find and Installer" on http://www.alpgw.com.au is now working. There are even a couple in Geelong. Woo hoo!

[blownba]

Yes but only a few of these fitters are fitting liquid mate.
I don't think there are any fitters doing JTG in Geelong.
I am fitting it and I am in the Eastern Subs but I am booked up till next year.

[perryr]

Yes but only a few of these fitters are fitting liquid mate.
I don't think there are any fitters doing JTG in Geelong.
I am fitting it and I am in the Eastern Subs but I am booked up till next year.

You could br right, all I read on the web site was "If you are interested in finding out more information on the JTG system to fit your car, contact a trained JTG installer by entering your post code via the find an installer page of our web site".

A couple of phone calls will clear it up pretty quickly.

[VZClub20]

Couple of questions...

1) Can you run the car without catalytic converters if you choose to go straight gas.... VE SS ?

2) Also can the lpg injectors be fitted where the petrol injectors where ??

[blownba]

No you cannot get rid of your cats. they are still required even when running straight LPG.
And yes there are adapters available to fit the injectors in the petrol injectors bosses, but they will not be available for some time.

[perryr]

A couple of people were having this installed last week. Any updates? I'm interested to hear the feedback.

[greencut]

Have had the conversion done but will be going back next week with a few "teething problems". I'll give my thoughts on the system once problems are rectified.

[blownba]

I have finished a VE 6.0L today, and I can tell you it is AMAZING to say the least.
It TROMPS petrol from idle to red line right across the board. The stuff delivers what is promised and then some!!!
You may say I am biased cause I fit the stuff, but mate I am a big a skeptic as the next guy and let me tell you this stuff has met all my expectations easily.
The 6.0lo especially is a awesome engine to get converted. there is a lot more urgency to the acceleration and it gets to full revs alot quicker.
I took my neighbor on one of my test drives with all my gear attached, and he has been racing for many years and he now does all the electrics and wiring looms for a lot of supercar teams, and he was just blown away by the performance gain on petrol. So much so he is gonna get a ute now and liquid inject it.

MORE power than petrol and better drivability at a dollar less a litre. To me the choice is really a no brainer.

[sheeks84]

hey blownba,

Good to hear the positive results. Just a couple of quick ones.
Where did you get the conversion done, how much did it cost and what is the install quality like?

As ive mentioned previously in this thread, im getting a VE SS-V Sportwagon and am seriously looking to this conversion.

Cheers

[Highway]

I have finished a VE 6.0L today, and I can tell you it is AMAZING to say the least.
It TROMPS petrol from idle to red line right across the board. The stuff delivers what is promised and then some!!!
You may say I am biased cause I fit the stuff, but mate I am a big a skeptic as the next guy and let me tell you this stuff has met all my expectations easily.
The 6.0lo especially is a awesome engine to get converted. there is a lot more urgency to the acceleration and it gets to full revs alot quicker.
I took my neighbor on one of my test drives with all my gear attached, and he has been racing for many years and he now does all the electrics and wiring looms for a lot of supercar teams, and he was just blown away by the performance gain on petrol. So much so he is gonna get a ute now and liquid inject it.

MORE power than petrol and better drivability at a dollar less a litre. To me the choice is really a no brainer.

G'Day,

Is the 6LT conversion just a stock car or has it been on the dyno after the liquid was fitted.

Mike

[Wonky]

hey blownba,

Good to hear the positive results. Just a couple of quick ones.
Where did you get the conversion done, how much did it cost and what is the install quality like?

As ive mentioned previously in this thread, im getting a VE SS-V Sportwagon and am seriously looking to this conversion.

Cheers

blownba works at a place who do the conversions down here in Melbourne. He was talking about a car they converted.


I have finished a VE 6.0L today, and I can tell you it is AMAZING to say the least.
It TROMPS petrol from idle to red line right across the board. The stuff delivers what is promised and then some!!!

Before and after dyno figures would be great!!

[hzv8]

What place in Melbourne....I'm interested in this system for my SSV Sportswagon.

[Steve-LS2]

Hi Guys,

I was quoted $5300 from a place near Knox SC.

I was referred by a friend who has a Tartarini kit on his BA XR6 ute.

From what I can gather because the gas is entering the manufold as a liquid and uses the injectors to get the fuel in instead of it coming through the throttle body the chemical effect of the LPG changing from a liquid to a gas reduces the temperature of the incoming air charge thus acting like an intercooler or chemical supercharger, i.e. Colder air is denser therefore creating a stronger burn and more power.

Oh and it is about 90 cents a litre cheaper and if you travel 250kms per week and use about a half a tank you would be up for about $50 - $60 per week for about 35 litres of Premium, you would pay back the $3300 in about 20 months, if you drive more you will pay it off sooner.

I just need to come up with the full $5300 as you need to claim the rebate back from the govt, and i will be getting it put on.

Cheers

Steve

[T2000]

^ BUMP ^

Where are those Dyno sheets Blownba??

I will be posting my Dyno sheets from the National Dyno Shootout which is on the 18th of October.

I will be doing one run on 98 octane and 2 runs on LILPG.

This is the only "Bolt on" mod that I know of that produces extra HP and puts money back in your pocket every time you fill!

I know that there are lots of sceptics out there... but hopefully we will soon have some HARD DATA!

[mrtockley]

Hi Guys,

I was quoted $5300 from a place near Knox SC.

I was referred by a friend who has a Tartarini kit on his BA XR6 ute.

From what I can gather because the gas is entering the manufold as a liquid and uses the injectors to get the fuel in instead of it coming through the throttle body the chemical effect of the LPG changing from a liquid to a gas reduces the temperature of the incoming air charge thus acting like an intercooler or chemical supercharger, i.e. Colder air is denser therefore creating a stronger burn and more power.

Oh and it is about 90 cents a litre cheaper and if you travel 250kms per week and use about a half a tank you would be up for about $50 - $60 per week for about 35 litres of Premium, you would pay back the $3300 in about 20 months, if you drive more you will pay it off sooner.

I just need to come up with the full $5300 as you need to claim the rebate back from the govt, and i will be getting it put on.

Cheers

Steve

I for one will definately be getting this conversion done and have been quoted roughly $5,500 (ouch) from APS in Funkytown. I still can't get over how the LPG makes more power than the petrol variant considering than LPG has a much lower calorific value than petrol. All this while still getting within 10 - 15% of the petrol fuel economy! I also enquired about going to full gas but APS didn't seem to think it was possible to replace the existing petrol fuel tank with an LPG tank. Has anyone else thought about doing this sort of conversion?

Tock.

[Steve-LS2]

I for one will definately be getting this conversion done and have been quoted roughly $5,500 (ouch) from APS in Funkytown. I still can't get over how the LPG makes more power than the petrol variant considering than LPG has a much lower calorific value than petrol. All this while still getting within 10 - 15% of the petrol fuel economy! I also enquired about going to full gas but APS didn't seem to think it was possible to replace the existing petrol fuel tank with an LPG tank. Has anyone else thought about doing this sort of conversion?

Tock.

Hey Tock,

I was told only 5% less economy with the injection system so even better again. Petrol does have a higher stoichiometric weight but LPG has a RON of 110, far better than Premium of 98.

As I wrote in the post the cooling of the air charge when the LPG changes from a liquid to a gas is what gives the power gains, that and the 110 RON.

Cheers

Steve

[mrtockley]

Hey Tock,

I was told only 5% less economy with the injection system so even better again. Petrol does have a higher stoichiometric weight but LPG has a RON of 110, far better than Premium of 98.

As I wrote in the post the cooling of the air charge when the LPG changes from a liquid to a gas is what gives the power gains, that and the 110 RON.

Cheers

Steve

Yeah it does sound very promising. I'd be interested to see what gains could be made with a decent OTRCAI and tune too. From what I've heard, just installing the system alone will get you around + 20RwKw!

I did hear some possible bad news though. I was talking to a mate the other day and he said that he heard that the Australian Gummint are going to de-regulate LPG in about 5 years which will apparently make the price skyrocket to near petrol prices. Can anyone confirm (or hopefully) slam this?

Cheers,

Tock.

[T2000]

Yeah it does sound very promising. I'd be interested to see what gains could be made with a decent OTRCAI and tune too. From what I've heard, just installing the system alone will get you around + 20RwKw!

I did hear some possible bad news though. I was talking to a mate the other day and he said that he heard that the Australian Gummint are going to de-regulate LPG in about 5 years which will apparently make the price skyrocket to near petrol prices. Can anyone confirm (or hopefully) slam this?

Cheers,

Tock.

I think you will find the HP increase is closer to 30rwkw (stocker)
Hopefully even more with mods...:):):)
Still want to see the Dyno sheets though!

The de-regulation sounds like a bit of an urban myth... but I don't know.
If anything de-regulation could bring about a huge reduction in price.
I know that Australia is a MASSIVE exporter of NG & LPG, at the rate of about 5c per litre. Potentially de-regulation might allow a new competitor to buy the local product and distribite/sell it in competition with the existing outlets. This could only REDUCE the price at the pump!

Either way if I can save a few $$$ over the next couple of years, produce more HP and save the planet - then I am happy, I wont lose any sleep about a possible future increase to the pump price of LPG.

Regards

Chris

[V8YANK]

Howdy ppl,
I've been curious about this method for a few years now. I've had multiple straight-gas vehicles, some pure-gas, some straight gas + stock fuel injection, and I've got quite a good understanding about it all.

I'm interested in getting a gas-injection system for a 6.6ltr big-block Chev. Just got a standard holley carb etc. on it now, and it's very-much a blank-canvas with possibilities. Like with previous cars, I'm happy to rebuild the motor to every spec needed to get the most out of it.

* Are settings/specs same as a non-injected straight-gas system?

* What sorta costs are involved for the older cars/engines like this?

* Is the engine's simplicity still a benefit (computers always seem to be the only probs) with this method.

I'd prefer to do as much as I can myself, mainly because I'll spend 10x longer on it to get it A++... Because it's my pride & joy, I know the car better than anyone working on it, and my time's free :)

Absolutely not a knock on pros, it's just a case of them running a business that needs to charge for the hours put-in. Being able to do as much myself makes it easier to get an appointment & keep costs down a bit too.

[T2000]

Howdy ppl,
I've been curious about this method for a few years now. I've had multiple straight-gas vehicles, some pure-gas, some straight gas + stock fuel injection, and I've got quite a good understanding about it all.

I'm interested in getting a gas-injection system for a 6.6ltr big-block Chev. Just got a standard holley carb etc. on it now, and it's very-much a blank-canvas with possibilities. Like with previous cars, I'm happy to rebuild the motor to every spec needed to get the most out of it.

* Are settings/specs same as a non-injected straight-gas system?

* What sorta costs are involved for the older cars/engines like this?

* Is the engine's simplicity still a benefit (computers always seem to be the only probs) with this method.

I'd prefer to do as much as I can myself, mainly because I'll spend 10x longer on it to get it A++... Because it's my pride & joy, I know the car better than anyone working on it, and my time's free :)

Absolutely not a knock on pros, it's just a case of them running a business that needs to charge for the hours put-in. Being able to do as much myself makes it easier to get an appointment & keep costs down a bit too.

Mate, my understanding of the whole system is that the LPG injectors "clone" the petrol injectors. They are calibrated to your efi. Your ECU doesn't even know that it is being fuelled by the LPG injectors.
I believe you would need to "upgrade" your big block to EFI and get it running before it could be converted to LILPG.

An existing working efi engine is a pre-requisite to an LILPG install. You may also have difficulties with getting compliance ... unless an identical vehicle / engine has already been converted and complianced.

[blownba]

I have some pics of the VE 6.0L
this is with the engine cover off. (the engine cover clips back on, after mods to the mountings, and you can't see anything)

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0365.jpg

And a 86L cylinder behind the seat.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0368.jpg


This car GAINED 21 RWKW over petrol.
I didn't bother getting printout of the runs, I was more interested in getting it set right and finished, but I may be able to get a sheet from another 6.0 that was done by ALPGW (Bill)
This stuff has blown me away. It as exceeded everything they have claimed and then some. I mean, to be able to tromp petrol performance from idle to redline on a 6.0 and a 6.2L is pretty bloody good. Wait till we really get playing with it. Peoples heads are gonna spin!!!!
The car needs to be driven to be believed. Nothing I can say is gonna be enough to prove how good this system is.
I need to say thanks to Bill and Hilbert from ALPGW. They have been fantastic with everything and have gone beyond the call of duty for me to make sure that JTG is perfect in everyway. And well done guys on getting this system, you are gonna turn the LPG industry on its head when people realise how good it actually is!!!!
Cheers.

[German Statesman]

Great result, good to see it's doing well.

[daVEss]

could you post up a before and after of the increase or decrease in distance travelled, and how often you need to fill up as oppose to before the conversion.

[blownba]

Mate I don't drive them that far!!!!!!!!
I can only go by customer feedback.
So far all feedback has been positive and economy figures are falling with 5 to 9% more gas usage than what they were getting out of petrol.
But its still really early to figure it out accurately.

[mrtockley]

I have some pics of the VE 6.0L
this is with the engine cover off. (the engine cover clips back on, after mods to the mountings, and you can't see anything)

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0365.jpg

And a 86L cylinder behind the seat.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0368.jpg


This car GAINED 21 RWKW over petrol.
I didn't bother getting printout of the runs, I was more interested in getting it set right and finished, but I may be able to get a sheet from another 6.0 that was done by ALPGW (Bill)
This stuff has blown me away. It as exceeded everything they have claimed and then some. I mean, to be able to tromp petrol performance from idle to redline on a 6.0 and a 6.2L is pretty bloody good. Wait till we really get playing with it. Peoples heads are gonna spin!!!!
The car needs to be driven to be believed. Nothing I can say is gonna be enough to prove how good this system is.
I need to say thanks to Bill and Hilbert from ALPGW. They have been fantastic with everything and have gone beyond the call of duty for me to make sure that JTG is perfect in everyway. And well done guys on getting this system, you are gonna turn the LPG industry on its head when people realise how good it actually is!!!!
Cheers.

Mate that's fantastic! I for one am JELous !! Great stuff and thanks for the pics, it looks like a very tidy install.

Cheers,

Tock.

[pk2k78]

My VZ Alloytec is at APS getting Liquid installed right now. I pick it up on Thursday. Hope the results are as good as the eights!

I'm getting a dyno readout that details petrol (standard) vs Liquid standard vs liquid tuned. Will post results then :)

[mmciau]

Mate I don't drive them that far!!!!!!!!
I can only go by customer feedback.
So far all feedback has been positive and economy figures are falling with 5 to 9% more gas usage than what they were getting out of petrol.
But its still really early to figure it out accurately.

The V8 you have just fitted! Is the vehicle now a 'dual fuel'?

Mike

[T2000]

:bawl::bawl::bawl::bawl:

I was booked in to have my Liquid Injected installed next week.
BUT have just been told there is a two week delay for the Donut Tanks... (tank brackets and tub liners not ready)

I haven't given up all hope of having the install competed for the National Dyno Shootout... but I am not terribly optimistic.

It would have been fantastic to have put the car on the rollers at the Nationals and PROVE the LILPG setup, against similar cars, same conditions, same Dyno.

BUGGER !!!

:soap:

[Highway]

Chris hope I am wrong but you are probably looking at around the end of October.
I was advised they are waiting on the donut tanks didn't know about the other stuff you mentioned.

[Dr.Gas]

I have some pics of the VE 6.0L
this is with the engine cover off. (the engine cover clips back on, after mods to the mountings, and you can't see anything)

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0365.jpg

And a 86L cylinder behind the seat.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff186/blownba/IMGP0368.jpg


This car GAINED 21 RWKW over petrol.
I didn't bother getting printout of the runs, I was more interested in getting it set right and finished, but I may be able to get a sheet from another 6.0 that was done by ALPGW (Bill)
This stuff has blown me away. It as exceeded everything they have claimed and then some. I mean, to be able to tromp petrol performance from idle to redline on a 6.0 and a 6.2L is pretty bloody good. Wait till we really get playing with it. Peoples heads are gonna spin!!!!
The car needs to be driven to be believed. Nothing I can say is gonna be enough to prove how good this system is.
I need to say thanks to Bill and Hilbert from ALPGW. They have been fantastic with everything and have gone beyond the call of duty for me to make sure that JTG is perfect in everyway. And well done guys on getting this system, you are gonna turn the LPG industry on its head when people realise how good it actually is!!!!
Cheers.

Thanks blownba yeah it was a good result all round I'll see if i can dig up the dyno report for the 6.0 it was pretty impessive more power and torque right through the range.......blew PULP to the weeds!!!!!!! got to love that.


My VZ Alloytec is at APS getting Liquid installed right now. I pick it up on Thursday. Hope the results are as good as the eights!

I'm getting a dyno readout that details petrol (standard) vs Liquid standard vs liquid tuned. Will post results then :)

Don't worry champ you won't be dissapointed, I did the R&D on the VZ V6 and it's ace!
Cheers

[SCiFiRE]

Really looking forward to seeing dyno sheets on this, especially the 6.0L

[saaz]

By 2012 excise on LPG will increase by about 10c a litre compared to now (unless some change is announced). The market price of lpg will largely change due to demand and supply rather than tax changes.

I was wondering how the computer (fuel used, instant fuel, average fuel etc) works with the direct injection? I assume the computer will give figures as if petrol was being used. On my VQ (computer controlled mixer system) the computer was never consistently able to estimate lpg usage. It sounds like lpg usage will be closer to petrol, so an adjustment of the computer could get reasonably accurate figures, and perhaps more consistent.

[pk2k78]

Don't worry champ you won't be dissapointed, I did the R&D on the VZ V6 and it's ace!
Cheers

Awesome! Did the Alloytec make more power and torque? Frank of APS said that some Liquid setups made equal power to petrol and not more. Its better than losing power but I really want more.

[Calais V 6.0]

Yeah I have seen the donut option for the VE and it looks fantastic.
There is also the option of a bigger donut tank that will mean getting rid of the plastic spare wheel tub altogether and fitting a tank mount tub that will let a bigger donut fit. It will hang about an inch or two lower than the original plastic tub.
But it will allow you to run a space saver spare and still have the boot floor level!!!!

Is this option still available? I was advised the donut tanks they are installing are 40+ ltrs:confused: I was hoping to get 60 + Ltrs usable at least for those long trips.....

[T2000]

Is this option still available? I was advised the donut tanks they are installing are 40+ ltrs:confused: I was hoping to get 60 + Ltrs usable at least for those long trips.....

I spoke to Hilbert at Aus LPG Warehouse a couple of days ago.
He didn't know anything about a larger donut and deleted spare wheel tub.:confused:
He said that the donut tank they will be fitting is a ~50 usable litres & is fitted in the wheel well.

[pk2k78]

I spoke to Hilbert at Aus LPG Warehouse a couple of days ago.
He didn't know anything about a larger donut and deleted spare wheel tub.:confused:
He said that the donut tank they will be fitting is a ~50 usable litres & is fitted in the wheel well.

Can confirm that thats what I have been told by APS (Thats what I am getting installed).

Probably not so great for the V8s but if the consumption figures are correct my Alloytec should get approx 450kms out of 50 litres. Good enough.

[loudvtss]

I'm confused and a little perplexed. I called Austrlian LPG Warehouse a couple of times and asked about usable size of a donut tank for a VZ SS sedan. Was told by technical department it was 50L usable then spoke to the sales team and they told me it was 40L usable. A mate got his car converted using the old mixer style system at Ezygas and there was a guy from Australian LPG warehouse there. I asked him and he told me 62L usable. Now maybe the usable and capacity and being confused.
I also ordered my system early July. Called a couple of times. The first time I was told there's a delay because I ordered a donut tank and there not sure when they'll receive the donut tanks. The second time I was told that the kit for my car was just being manufactured and I'll be looking at mid December.
Surely someone there knows what's going on.

[Calais V 6.0]

There doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of what install options are available to the customer. I am not knocking the guys, but it would be helpful if we could have someone confirm here, just what is and what isn't available.


All I am after, is confirmation that when I go in for my install in December that I will be getting the largest donut tank available that will still be able to sit in the spear wheel well and allow me to sit the space saver wheel on top.

Can someone confirm what the biggest tank is that will allow this?

Thanks in advance

[T2000]

There doesn't seem to be a clear understanding of what install options are available to the customer. I am not knocking the guys, but it would be helpful if we could have someone confirm here, just what is and what isn't available.


All I am after, is confirmation that when I go in for my install in December that I will be getting the largest donut tank available that will still be able to sit in the spear wheel well and allow me to sit the space saver wheel on top.

Can someone confirm what the biggest tank is that will allow this?

Thanks in advance

... There are some definate dissadvantages in being on the cutting edge!!!
My install was due next week. My installer and the supplier cannot answer the questions that you have just posted. I have asked them myself and I still don't know what I am getting and when:confused: That probably makes me a little foolish, however the installer is promising to exchange the tank if it is not what I wanted (great bloke eh?) As long as it is a Donut, I am happy. If a bigger donut and hardware is available then I will explore my options to upgrade.

My rather novice (albeit enthusiastic) knowledge would lead me to believe that the common toroidal volumes (Injected and Non Injected) are approx 67 litres. The safety features installed will only allow an 80% fill. Therefore 80% of 67 litres = 53.6 L capacity.

Unfortunately the iCom (Tank manufacturer & supplier to Aus LPG warehouse) website is a little broken at the moment, so I cant get definate sizings. Does anyone read Italian ? GO HERE: http://www.icomitalia.it/lang1/tank.html - I am guessing that the larger toroidal (F86) is an 86 Litre Volume @ 80% fill = ~69 L capacity.

I know it is not a definitave answer... but it might help:)

Cheers

[loudvtss]

I would've thought that this information would be available since these systems are being installed. Imagine the poor installers who are being asked all the questions and they have no answers. I wouldn't have thought it would be that hard to have a list on their website of compatible cars, the standard tank option and size and the options. Would make life easier for a lot of customers and installers.

[Calais V 6.0]

I would've thought that this information would be available since these systems are being installed. Imagine the poor installers who are being asked all the questions and they have no answers. I wouldn't have thought it would be that hard to have a list on their website of compatible cars, the standard tank option and size and the options. Would make life easier for a lot of customers and installers.

Spot on mate:yup:

[perryr]

This is what I was told a couple of weeks back by one installer:

There are a couple of different options with the tank. you can either go for a 80L tank behind the seat that has 68L usable or go for a Donut tank in the spare wheel area and leave your spare at home and carry a puncture repair kit (supplied with conversion)

If you would like a donut tank, there are two options there too. There is the 50L tank or the bigger 68L tank that is a bit dearer but I don't have a current price available.

So it seems we can't get a consistent story here. There was no mention of availability. I wait with interest! I will probably end up going for the tank in the boot option, as I hate anything other than a full size spare.

Cheers

[pk2k78]

Finally picked up my car!!! (VZ Alloytec) I'm on Liquid LPG woo hoo!!

Bad news is they couldn't give me a dyno readout as it was playing up!! They did however say that petrol ran at 170ish horsepower and went to 185ish (or from 126kws to 137kws). No dyno tune was performed. The only mods I have done are the MCAI 2nd hole, air box shroud and K & N panel filter. They invited me to go back there next weekend to redo the runs and get a printout plotting the two fuels. Then I'm fitting extractors, exhaust, OTR CAI and getting them to tune it, screw it. Apparently lots more power can be had tuning liquid especially advancing the timing to take advantage of the higher octane of LPG

Driveability - Haven't driven it a whole lot yet but power feels pretty much the same to be honest. Still really doey down low unfortunately. definitely not worse than petrol.

Another bit I don't like is that it has to start on petrol. It automatically switches to gas but you have to wait 50 secs for the petrol to purge. The guys said that they can bring this time down with software so I will be doing that. The LPG injectors are a bit noisier also. They sound like noisy tappets when on gas.... don't know if this is normal???

Economy - No idea yet. I'll top it up tonight and see how I go over the next week. I got the donut tank installed. Labeled 63 litres but the expert (guy who did the R & D on the system) tells me there is 50-52 usable litres. There is however room for a bigger donut tank in the wheel well (width and height). You can't see it very well in the pic but it could be at least 10 litres bigger.

Over-all I'm quite happy. Will update you guys over the next few days.

Cheers Mat

Pics to follow when I can work out how to upload and post! Can anyone instruct me??

[blownba]

The guy that did the R&D on that kit told me that it hosed petrol right across the board.
The injectors shouldn't be noisy. The ones I have done are far QUIETER than petrol by a long shot, especially the 6.0L
The owner of the 6.0L calais I did last weeek rang me today to say thank you. He is totally wrapped with the car. He is amazed at the power difference and he reckons that the economy is pretty good, but he wants to do more kays before he makes a proper judgment.

[mrtockley]

The guy that did the R&D on that kit told me that it hosed petrol right across the board.
The injectors shouldn't be noisy. The ones I have done are far QUIETER than petrol by a long shot, especially the 6.0L
The owner of the 6.0L calais I did last weeek rang me today to say thank you. He is totally wrapped with the car. He is amazed at the power difference and he reckons that the economy is pretty good, but he wants to do more kays before he makes a proper judgment.

Blownba,

do you know if it's possible to have 2 tanks? I was thinking about a setup where you could have a 59 useable (or whatever it is) doughnut tank in the spare wheel well, and then the larger 80 lt(?) cylinder in the boot to get mucg greater distances.

Do you know if this could work?

Cheers,

Tock.

[mmciau]

False economy I'd suggest!

You'd be carrying around about 100+kg of extra weight which wouldn't assist economy (which is what you are chasing with the conversion)

You'd have petrol (1 tank) plus LPG

Mike

[mrtockley]

False economy I'd suggest!

You'd be carrying around about 100+kg of extra weight which wouldn't assist economy (which is what you are chasing with the conversion)

You'd have petrol (1 tank) plus LPG

Mike

Yeah good point. I wonder if it's then possible to rip the petrol tank out and have a bigger tank underneath to run straight LPG ?

Tock

[pk2k78]

The guy that did the R&D on that kit told me that it hosed petrol right across the board.
The injectors shouldn't be noisy. The ones I have done are far QUIETER than petrol by a long shot, especially the 6.0L
The owner of the 6.0L calais I did last weeek rang me today to say thank you. He is totally wrapped with the car. He is amazed at the power difference and he reckons that the economy is pretty good, but he wants to do more kays before he makes a proper judgment.

Yeah I heard the injectors should be quieter also. Maybe there's something wrong?

[T2000]

Yeah good point. I wonder if it's then possible to rip the petrol tank out and have a bigger tank underneath to run straight LPG ?

Tock

Have you ever seen the petrol tank on the VE???

It is in the middle of the car near the rear seats. Doesn't appear to have much depth and is half on drivers side and half on passenger side, with plumbing between the two (tailshaft and exhaust splitting it). I don't think any sort of LPG tank is going to fit under there and still give you clearance.

Pity though.

Chris

[HSV Listy]

If you want more tank space check the link below. They qld based. They do odd size and multi tank installations. Maybe get your installer to use them.
http://www.propaneperformance.com/html/index.htm

http://www.propaneperformance.com/downloads/Brochure.pdf

[mrtockley]

Have you ever seen the petrol tank on the VE???

It is in the middle of the car near the rear seats. Doesn't appear to have much depth and is half on drivers side and half on passenger side, with plumbing between the two (tailshaft and exhaust splitting it). I don't think any sort of LPG tank is going to fit under there and still give you clearance.

Pity though.

Chris

No mate I've never seen it and I just assumed it was towards the rear. Oh well I'll have to suck it up and get the bigger tank in the boot..

Tock.

[T2000]

If you want more tank space check the link below. They qld based. They do odd size and multi tank installations. Maybe get your installer to use them.
http://www.propaneperformance.com/html/index.htm

http://www.propaneperformance.com/downloads/Brochure.pdf

Interesting Links... Thanks

A quick read through did not reveal any info about compliance with Liquid Injection systems.

I will send them an email and try to verify.

I will assume that it doesn't comply because I think that the LILPG setup runs at higher pressures and utilizes a submersible pump to maintain contant line pressures to the injectors.

[mrtockley]

If you want more tank space check the link below. They qld based. They do odd size and multi tank installations. Maybe get your installer to use them.
http://www.propaneperformance.com/html/index.htm

http://www.propaneperformance.com/downloads/Brochure.pdf

Sorry I didn't see your post..

Thanks !

[ratter]

Liquid Injection LPG tanks are different to all other gas tanks, and other styles of tanks can not be used in this system

[blownba]

You can run twin tanks, thats not an issue.
The propane performance tank can't be utilised because of the intak pump and level electronics ETC....
There is no way of being able to run one of their tanks with all the JTG hardware in them. Its just not gonna happen. The only way you can run JTG is with the JTG, Icom tanks.

I had a good listen to the injectors today. The JTG injectors are definatly QUIETER than the petrol injectors. The petrol injectors on Falcons and Commo's are like tractors compared to the JTG ones. Are you sure its the injectors that are making the noise????

[HSV Listy]

They make and design the tanks, why not ring them and get them to make them suitable for these systems. Obvously there is a market for more useable LPG space based on what I can see on here.

[blownba]

Cause Icom will not allow you to use any other brand of tank except theirs I reckon.
I am not really interested in doing it as none of my customers have had a problem with tanks.
AND the thought of an alloy LPG tank scares me. 20 bar on a hot day in a aluminium tank??? No thanks.

[Dr.Gas]

Ok to answer a few questions........
1. the original idea with VE and a donut tank was to have a replacement 'tub' to house the tank and a space saver spare wheel. This meant removing the plastic OE spare wheel 'tub'. in practice the replacement tub was too heavy, too hard to fit and ship. I have just finished the R&D on a more simple, lighter and freight friendly solution for the 50 useable L donut. will be getting the laser cut samples Monday to test. There is a larger donut (65L useable) which will require further R&D to make fit but stock of these is low at the moment, a new shipment will fix this situation very soon. I cant see the idea of the tank and space saver in the one tub happening any time soon.

2. the 'noisy' injectors may not be the injectors at all, most likely be simply a supply or return line resting on the firewall, simple to rectify, seen it before.......no dramas. The dyno run for the VZ V6 was not completed due to time constraints and will be done when the vehicle is returned for the first (free) check.

The demand for JTG has been bigger than anyone could have predicted, all of us at ALPGW are working flat out to complete as many R&D projects to satisfy the many and varied requests for vehicle kits......

[CALDIR]

Hi

I am considering getting my Wk Grange converted to gas at APS Frankston or their affiliated business across the road from APS. Can someone confirm the tank options if they know of it before I book my car in? I would rather take some time to think of what is best for me and be prepared with the options before I book it in so I can clearly state to them what I want.

I know I want the JTG liquid injection system, just the tank choice is the decider.

Is their an option in the donut size tanks in the WK Grange, is their a new donut tank been offered for the WK Grange in the future which holds more lpg? Or is the largest lpg capacity still with a tank behind the back seat?

regards,

Richard
HRTSEN

[old holden V8]

Ok to answer a few questions........
1. the original idea with VE and a donut tank was to have a replacement 'tub' to house the tank and a space saver spare wheel. This meant removing the plastic OE spare wheel 'tub'. in practice the replacement tub was too heavy, too hard to fit and ship. I have just finished the R&D on a more simple, lighter and freight friendly solution for the 50 useable L donut. will be getting the laser cut samples Monday to test. There is a larger donut (65L useable) which will require further R&D to make fit but stock of these is low at the moment, a new shipment will fix this situation very soon. I cant see the idea of the tank and space saver in the one tub happening any time soon.

2. the 'noisy' injectors may not be the injectors at all, most likely be simply a supply or return line resting on the firewall, simple to rectify, seen it before.......no dramas. The dyno run for the VZ V6 was not completed due to time constraints and will be done when the vehicle is returned for the first (free) check.

The demand for JTG has been bigger than anyone could have predicted, all of us at ALPGW are working flat out to complete as many R&D projects to satisfy the many and varied requests for vehicle kits......

Great information Dr.!

So, just to clarify:

1. Original plan was to have replacement spare wheel tub, that could incorporate donut tank AND space-saver spare, in the tub.

2. This turned out to be not feasible after real-world testing..

3. There will soon be a 50L donut that incorporates a replacement spare wheel tub - and a 65L useable donut is in R&D presently - that will NOT incorporate a 'space saver' spare wheel.

4. Don't hold your breath waiting for a No.1 tub/tank/spare wheel combo...

Now my question is: Can you fit a setup as per No.3 (50L/65L) and just have the normal spare/space saver just lying flat in the boot? Or is that nowadays unroadworthy? (ie. the spare needs to be restrained)

Thanks!


Laurie

:)

[FORCEFEDGAS]

Great information Dr.!

So, just to clarify:

1. Original plan was to have replacement spare wheel tub, that could incorporate donut tank AND space-saver spare, in the tub.

2. This turned out to be not feasible after real-world testing..

3. There will soon be a 50L donut that incorporates a replacement spare wheel tub - and a 65L useable donut is in R&D presently - that will NOT incorporate a 'space saver' spare wheel.

4. Don't hold your breath waiting for a No.1 tub/tank/spare wheel combo...

Now my question is: Can you fit a setup as per No.3 (50L/65L) and just have the normal spare/space saver just lying flat in the boot? Or is that nowadays unroadworthy? (ie. the spare needs to be restrained)

Thanks!


Laurie

:)

Not to sure about over east but in WA the spare can be loose in the "boot", if in a wagon or the likes it must be restrained. there are starting to crack down on this over here now.

[Dr.Gas]

Great information Dr.!

So, just to clarify:

1. Original plan was to have replacement spare wheel tub, that could incorporate donut tank AND space-saver spare, in the tub.

2. This turned out to be not feasible after real-world testing..

3. There will soon be a 50L donut that incorporates a replacement spare wheel tub - and a 65L useable donut is in R&D presently - that will NOT incorporate a 'space saver' spare wheel.

4. Don't hold your breath waiting for a No.1 tub/tank/spare wheel combo...

Now my question is: Can you fit a setup as per No.3 (50L/65L) and just have the normal spare/space saver just lying flat in the boot? Or is that nowadays unroadworthy? (ie. the spare needs to be restrained)

Thanks!


Laurie

:)

Pretty much spot on except that even the smaller donut option will not incorperate the space saver option...........not really workable. Yes the option of having the spare flat on the floor maybe with a cover (????????) is on the cards, will look at that on Monday might be able to make that happen with little fuss.......stay tuned!!


Not to sure about over east but in WA the spare can be loose in the "boot", if in a wagon or the likes it must be restrained. there are starting to crack down on this over here now.

Yeah that is an issue in WA even with sedans. My understanding is that if the spare is retained properly it's not a problem. The old RWC ruels apply "If fitted OE must work or be fitted". Check with the local rego boys to make sure.

[pk2k78]

2. the 'noisy' injectors may not be the injectors at all, most likely be simply a supply or return line resting on the firewall, simple to rectify, seen it before.......no dramas. The dyno run for the VZ V6 was not completed due to time constraints and will be done when the vehicle is returned for the first (free) check.

I think you might be right about the noise....

A couple of other little things have come up. I won't go through them here as I'm sure they are fixable. Apart from that the car is driving awesome.

[T2000]

I think you might be right about the noise....

A couple of other little things have come up. I won't go through them here as I'm sure they are fixable. Apart from that the car is driving awesome.

Good to hear mate... I just hope my LPG kit isn't too far away!

Congrats on your install... how about a review???

[pk2k78]

Good to hear mate... I just hope my LPG kit isn't too far away!

Congrats on your install... how about a review???

Hmm maybe not just yet I'll wait until all the little bits and pieces are fixed plus I've only done about 300kms with it installed.

I ran the gas out completely to see how much the tank could take. It took just on 49 litres (donut tank). I'm driving economically now so I'll give you economy figures within about a week.

On average I got about 9 -10 litres per hundred on petrol during an average week of driving to work and back. I live in Frankston and work on Blackburn rd Mount Waverley so there is a bit of freeway driving (Frankston freeway and Westall rd). I used to drive to work from Balwyn and consumption was much worse. These figures are based on true measurements ie kms divided by petrol taken at the pump NOT the trip computer which was always .3 to .7 l/per 100km out.

If the claims are true I should expect 10.5 l/per 100kms or less on LPG which I would be really happy with. Fingers crossed!

The best I have achieved with petrol is 7.8 l/per 100kms all hwy.

[mrtockley]

Hmm maybe not just yet I'll wait until all the little bits and pieces are fixed plus I've only done about 300kms with it installed.

I ran the gas out completely to see how much the tank could take. It took just on 49 litres (donut tank). I'm driving economically now so I'll give you economy figures within about a week.

On average I got about 9 -10 litres per hundred on petrol during an average week of driving to work and back. I live in Frankston and work on Blackburn rd Mount Waverley so there is a bit of freeway driving (Frankston freeway and Westall rd). I used to drive to work from Balwyn and consumption was much worse. These figures are based on true measurements ie kms divided by petrol taken at the pump NOT the trip computer which was always .3 to .7 l/per 100km out.

If the claims are true I should expect 10.5 l/per 100kms or less on LPG which I would be really happy with. Fingers crossed!

The best I have achieved with petrol is 7.8 l/per 100kms all hwy.

Sounds awesome. What car do you have out of interest? If you are getting 9 - 10L per 100 that's pretty good economy to start with!

[pk2k78]

Sounds awesome. What car do you have out of interest? If you are getting 9 - 10L per 100 that's pretty good economy to start with!

Its a VZ Alloytec. I'm happy with economy numbers on petrol just not the price of petrol!! City driving pushes consumption up to 12 - 13 l/per 100km.

[andlis]

Hi all,

I have just driven home from getting lpg liquid injection installed in my VE Calais 6Ltr V8 6 speed auto,

The installation was performed by Kurt at australian lpgas warehouse in Wollongong and i would reccommend him to anyone interested in getting a liquid conversion done, so far the news is good! power feels good not sure whether there is a big power gain but there is definately no loss of power, smooth acceleration, very happy indeed, i will be getting a tune in the not too distant future so i should be able to give a better report.

On other matters this is a simple question but can anyone tell me how i will know when the lpg tank is full when i fill up, the reason i ask is the gauge was reading half but at 5.5 ltrs the lpg pump slowed down then would not pump anymore in, any ideas whether this is normal would be apreciated.

And one last thing does lpg quality vary from suppliers ie bp shell 711

Thanks Guys

[Highway]

Hi all,

I have just driven home from getting lpg liquid injection installed in my VE Calais 6Ltr V8 6 speed auto,

The installation was performed by Kurt at australian lpgas warehouse in Wollongong and i would reccommend him to anyone interested in getting a liquid conversion done, so far the news is good! power feels good not sure whether there is a big power gain but there is definately no loss of power, smooth acceleration, very happy indeed, i will be getting a tune in the not too distant future so i should be able to give a better report.

On other matters this is a simple question but can anyone tell me how i will know when the lpg tank is full when i fill up, the reason i ask is the gauge was reading half but at 5.5 ltrs the lpg pump slowed down then would not pump anymore in, any ideas whether this is normal would be apreciated.

And one last thing does lpg quality vary from suppliers ie bp shell 711

Thanks Guys


Hi andlis,

I was only speaking to Kurt on friday and he said he was installing a VE 6ltr probably the first in NSW most likely.

Mine is booked in for the install in hopefully a few weeks with the donut tank when its available.

Good to hear yours is going well.

The tune should see a big improvement.

I am new to this lpg stuff but I would think that when the tank has filled with the usable litres it should click off just like petrol.

I have been told that the Auto Gas is the best ( from BP and Mobil etc ) but I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

What size tank did you get installed ?

Does the engine run just as quiet as when on petrol.

When you do some k'ms it will be good to hear some feedback on the economy etc

All the best

Mike

[andlis]

Hi andlis,

I was only speaking to Kurt on friday and he said he was installing a VE 6ltr probably the first in NSW most likely.

Mine is booked in for the install in hopefully a few weeks with the donut tank when its available.

Good to hear yours is going well.

The tune should see a big improvement.

I am new to this lpg stuff but I would think that when the tank has filled with the usable litres it should click off just like petrol.

I have been told that the Auto Gas is the best ( from BP and Mobil etc ) but I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

What size tank did you get installed ?

Does the engine run just as quiet as when on petrol.

When you do some k'ms it will be good to hear some feedback on the economy etc

All the best

Mike



G,Day Mike,

Thanks for the reply,

to answer your questions, The Tank size is 86 litres (68-69 useable litres) it is a cylindrical tank that fits in the back of the boot, there is plenty of room left over (enough to fit our baby jogger)

As for the engine noise, whilst driving you can barely feel or hear the difference when lpg kicks in, however this morning i have had a closer inspection, and with the doors closed when the lpg kicks in there is a slight knocking noise from the engine bay? however when i open the bonnet you can not hear it? (i will ask kurt on monday but i think it is just the valve block for the injectors pulsing?)

One other problem i have noticed is when the car starts (on petrol) it takes a little longer to fire (another one i will ask kurt about) but also this morning i ran the car on petrol before stopping the car and it fired fine(so if anyone knows the technical side of the petrol system please comment, i am just thinking there may be a passing valve somewhere?

But all in all i am very happy Kurt is more than helpful and the kit comes with a full 2 year 50,000 km warranty, and even if lpg consumption is 10% more than petrol the savings based on lpg to PULP is around 80-90 cents per litre on todays prices, add to this there is a power gain so once the government gives me my 2 grand tell my of any other system that can give you more power and pay for itself in 25000kms and i will buy that too lol.


Andrew

P.S i Have pics but dont know how to post them, Mike what sort of car do you have

[ratter]

You may be hearing some fuelline hammer, if the installer has attached your fuel line to the firewall.
Even when on gas, your car still starts and runs on petrol until the purge time has elasped and then it switches.

[Highway]

G'Day Andrew,

Thanks for your comments.

I also found Kurt helpful and happy to explain things when I dropped in the worshop 3-4 weeks ago with my questions.

Lets us know what Kurt advises with the things you have mentioned.
It sounds only minor with maybe a bit of adjustment etc

Good to know you don't get any constant injector noise like some of the vapour systems.

I have a VE Wagon 6ltr Auto.

Mike