Oh the ironing is deliciousQuote:
Originally Posted by Frankster_P
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Oh the ironing is deliciousQuote:
Originally Posted by Frankster_P
Ford got their $103m from Ford USA not from the gov. I guess the only people that really care for Commodores and Falcons are the ones interested in keeping our true performance cars and we're probably trying to keep alive a battle already lost. I'd still settle for Stangs and Vettes if it came down to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag530G
When Australians exercise free choice in the matter of buying a car the vast majority choose not to give their money to GM or Ford for an Australian made car. The vast majority of Australians exercise their free choice in buying a car NOT made in Australia by Ford or GM. This being the cold hard fact why should Australians by compelled via the spending of tax payers dollars into subsidising Ford and GM? I don't think we should, if so many Australians are so concerned about this they would buy a Commodore or a Falcon, but they don't. As for the argument that a subsidy to GM and Ford means more tax revenue and fewer dole payments for the government, its a poor argument because of the opportunity cost involved. If GM and Ford shut down tomorrow the workers would get jobs elsewhere and be paying tax anyway. This country has a skills shortage. Look at the joke of subsidising Mitsubishi when unemployment was sub 5% and the mining boom was in full swing, the government was effectively tying up useful workers in pointless jobs producing unwanted goods and spending taxpayers dollars doing so. If the unions are so concerned lets see them offer to take pay cuts instead of pushing for pay rises like they have been doing at Toyota recently, complete bloody morons for that effort. Yes I love Holden but I don't support giving them taxpayer dollars and if they can't remain profitable then close the doors we move on. Nothing is forever.
Cheers, Matthew
now if we apply that logic and reasoning...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag530G
it also gets applied to the mining food agriculture and tourist industries for starters
(there are LOTS of industries getting govt handouts) and they also shutdown
what you going to eat..??? :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
What were ya doin in Collingwood mate?
There's a difference between a necessity and a nice to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Supporting agricultural industry = good
Supporting bogan pride = bad
I'd love to think that if I couldn't be competitive I could rely on the govt to prop me up. And yes, 40 years going on strong second generation manufacturing business so I have every right to bag out Holden being propped up.
According to http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8400744 the Feds are kicking in $34 million, and the Vic govt haven't disclosed how much they are tipping in.Quote:
Originally Posted by 185iboy
Not sure if that $34 mil is part of the $103 mil, just saying that Govco are tipping funds into Ford (just as they have tipped funds previously into Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsi when they were still around).
Territory is actually the leader in its segment (medium SUV) coming in at the number spot ahead of the Kluger, Prado and Captiva.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
Don't think that Holden is any better a position than Ford (they may actually be in a worse position than Ford) just because the Commodore sells more than the Falcon. Make no mistake, the Cruze sales are making up for the lost Commodore sales, however, they are only priced at half to two-thirds the price of a Commodore, whilst costing a similar amount to manufacture.
The Territory is around double the price of a base model Cruze, not to mention the majority of sales are the up spec models.
Territory might be sales leader in Australia, but thats it, the Prade, Kluger and Captiva are sold in many countries around the world so the development costs are spreaad over much higher volumes. The Territory is the most endangered product made in Australia. Ford makes a number of SUVs designed in AMerica and Europe that sell in much bigger volumes. Alan Mullaly has a stated policy of moving to global platforms and this handout from the government only keeps the Falcon going to 2016. At some point it is going to need a major redesign and there is buckleys chance of Ford HQ approving the budget for a new Falcon when it is not even selling 20,000 sedans a year. Convincing the Aust Gov to kick in $34M to keep the production lines going is one thing but I can't see the Fed government kicking in cubic dollars for a full redesign (in the manner of the EA or AU update) or even a major upgrade (BA or FG style).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionking
To Smitty, big deal if Holden or Ford shut shop in Australia. We won't be walking if they don't make cars, they will import Tauruses and Malibus in place of Falcons and Commodores. As for V8s? Well that will be yet another aspect of Australia's cultural history that comes to an end. Many cultural aspects surrounding V8 Holdens (and Fords for that matter) have nearly disappeared in the wider community. Be it because of high petrol prices, road safety, police enforcement or changing buyer tastes, things have changed in Australia. 40 years ago if you imagined the average Australian family getting into their car you would think of large sedan. Nowadays what sort of car do you think of when imagining the average Australian family hopping into their car? Me, I think of an SUV. You will be surprised at how few Australians will actually give a stuff about whether Holden or Ford builds cars in this country, they wouldn't missed after the initial hoo-haa.
Cheers, Matthew
On average, how many times getting one's knickers in a twist does it take for a diehard Ford or Holden fan to accept he/she has no influence on corporate machinations? These are professional executives who know how to squeeze dollars from shareholders, govts, investors, banks, et al. They aren't brand partisan, although they would have you believe they are. They are loyal to power and salary, feeding an ego, nothing more.
Be a shame for Holden and Falcon to fold, because they really are a good product compared to American offerings, but maybe the American product is inferior for a reason and that value strategy will flow down, even to Oz. And yes I travel around the world a lot, so I experience a lot of different rides.
What I wanna know is why Holden didn't produce a new Torana and Ford a new Cortina in readiness for us baby boomers wanting to downsize? Something must be very much awry with the marketing depts in both camps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag530G
so say goodbye to a swag of R&D, innovation and engineering and technical knowhow in this country
and say hello to a whole lot of unemployed (and unemployable) ...
personally? I do NOT wish to support other countries and their economies ...
by buying vehicles made behind tariff and other protective walls. Nor do I want to
support a whole army of the unemployed. I do NOT like selling off the farm.
My vote goes to the govt which supports us and Australian industry including amongst others -
the mining manufacturing agricultural and automotive sectors.
I just wish we had the guts to do what the yanks had done about imports.....
The Terri is only the sales leader because the Captiva split into separate figures for the 5 and the 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionking
Errr I don't think any of the Ford"num nuts" want to see Holden's demise!! What an Idiot statement!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankster_P
And their dealers treating their customers like fools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tre-Cool
Of course Holden will "ask" for a handout. What manufacturer wouldn't if the others get one! :idea:
Yes because they are 2 different cars. As much as I'm a Holden fan, let's not even try to compare the Korean Captiva to that of the Territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by ti0350
Spot on Davo its the Aussie way! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
The way the federal government are keeping Qld afloat it would be a wonder if they have any left in the back pocket to help Holden or Ford out.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
I'm sure Holden are fine, we had 2 casuals in at work last year who were both ex Holden, both got offered a very lucrative redundancy payout including a bottom line markup price on anything in the Holden lineup. So unless the government is funding redundancies or the like seems unlikely there is need to worry
That's actually a big problem for Ford, imo. - their cars are good, their dealers are atrocious!Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiKava
If a business can't be compete with local and foreign car makers, unfortunately they should be put to the scrapheap. Their cars are either not good enough quality wise (or even aren't the right kind of car for today), their customer service is too poor, or the prices associated with the cars are too much. This goes for any local manufacturer. Holden, Ford or Toyota.
It was bloody silly for Holden to building a "Pontiac G8" for less than what they were selling the same equiped Commodore domestically. If what they are building domestically costs what it does, yet they are able to product a LHD car complying with US regulations, sending it to the over side of the world and STILL offering it for a lower price, you know someone is pulling a dodgy somewhere in GM. We either should get the same pricing as the Yanks, or people will head elsewhere.
You can talk about "cultural significance", but in reality a business is a business, the entire game is about providing a product for profit. If that isn't the aim of a manufacturer, they go bankrupt. GM went bankrupt, Ford didn't. I see that is a fundament difference between the thinking of the two brands in the 2000s.
Sadly, I feel that the 2008 bailout (this includes GMH too as they got an exorbiant line of credit from government) will be to GM as what the 1980 bailout was to Chysler.
Others have said it earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_fool
Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that most countries around the world "protect" their industries through either tariff protection, tax breaks or various other schemes, and in the case of many manufacturing countries, they simply don't have the high standard of living we have in Australia, so produce much cheaper. All that greed many possess for wage increases here comes with a cost attached.
If we don't assist our manufacuring industries to some degree, HUNDREDS of companies will be affected, and a huge number of people will be looking for jobs. Since one can't just pull jobs out of their bum, many are likely to end up on welfare, paid by you and me. Much better to have these industries providing employment, skills training and PAYE tax than have thousands sucking the tax system dry. Tourism, mining, retail and small business can only employ so many...
As for "cheap" US cars, this is a subject done to death. There are vast differences in many areas between the two countries. I feel the best thing to be said on this subject is that people have been getting damn good deals on large cars for several years now in Aus, and most people don't consider them expensive, just less what they are looking for than they used to.
Holden and Ford actually need to be protected. We need more than miners in this country.
Too many eggs in one basket living solely on what we dig out of the ground IMO
No, it isn't the HDI that allows people to produce stuff cheaper, it is their relaxed labour laws and the ease of doing business within those developing nations. If we want an automotive industry in Australia that can compete on a world stage, we must match them. The productive capacity of a western worker must rise in order to compete with workers in 2nd and 3rd world nations, otherwise their wages aren't justified and the company isn't providing the best possible price for their customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
If you go down the road of producing stuff for the sake of producing stuff you're just going to end up with propping up an industry which is just going to end up shipping overseas regardless. At least with my way Holden and Ford have a fighting chance by competing on a world scale. If they fail, so be it.
To think otherwise is a Keynesian fallacy, as you're just wasting otherwise good resources on an ultimately unfruitful enterprise.
Resources that are better off being used in another manner.
First off, I don't consider there to be much difference between Holden and Ford getting a cheque from the government and the average dole receipient. If their existence relies upon government redistribution, there is no difference. Taxation of the workers/manufacturers is another Kenyesian fallacy, as your net tax revenue is going to be less than what you're tipping into the kitty to keep the unsustainable business running.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
Jobs are created when a business is profitable. In order to do this, businesses need to be competitive in every aspect of their manufacturing. Otherwise, people will head elsewhere, concious of better deals for a lesser price. The business will then see reduced profits, and they know that they must adjust themselves to match the market. If they don't, someone else will come along motivated by profit and WILL provide what the market is looking for, perhaps buying up the inefficient company along the way.
The key is to let the business fail when they do, so other businesses can step up to do a better job.
Large cars in Australia are too expensive for what they provide, and too substand of a build quality compared to the European (and quite frankly, the Japanese) makes. I don't mind buying a Holden or Ford, but they should be cheaper than what they are now, and certainly not more expensive than their BMW or Mercedes counterparts in other markets.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
Protectionist measures prevent those businesses from competing, thus an unsustainable business model. In the heyday of automotive manufacturing in Australia, one that was largely protected from overseas competition, the only competition was between Ford, Holden and to a limited extent Chrysler. Protectionist measures kept out superior models to local offerings and thus the consumer was faced with inferior products at exorbiant prices.
As a consumer, I don't feel like getting ripped off for the sake of a few jobs. You may, but I don't. Culture means exactly jack squat to me when it comes to the ability of a company to produce a product, and if the product is substandard or not atleast priced accordingly, or even worse they PRESSURE the government to initiate regulations and taxes on overseas competition to their benefit, I'm infuriated.
With a dollar worth more than the USD, we should be getting much cheaper vehicles. The reluctance of the brands in this country to do so shows that the automotive industry in this country is non-responsive to the market and can't take in stimli effectively.
If we want an automotive industry, we should have one that isn't coming back to the government every 5 years looking for a hand out like a junkie on crack. If taxation is too heavy for them, reduce taxation across the board, otherwise they need to adjust their business practices to maximize their profits or *shock horror* produce a better product to justify a higher price.
I'll leave it at that. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on internet forums, and we (and many others) have given ours on the subject.
So we get a FTA with Thailand and just before it's implimentation the Thai's slap on new "levies" killing Ford Terry exports overnight and yet the "direct japanese competitive model" is classified differently and goes unhindered into Thailand. Labour is about 10% the cost component of building a car, minor compared to the other cost components. I wonder how many here saying, yeah let manufacturing go are employed in any manufacturing industry. Every car building nation subsidises it's manufacturers in some form or other and the Australian governments assistance doesn't even rank in the top 5 amongst other countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_fool
Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to the car industry:
Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.
The mining industry employs a fraction of the people in the manufacturing industry and yet receives several billion dollars in differing forms of assistance and subsidies. Sure mining brings in big income however why should it get any assistance or subsidies at all based on the profits being generated or why can't the same ratio of assistance be given to other sectors?
That's all well and good, but it doesn't explain the prices we pay for cars here. Domestic cars are over priced and so are any cars that try to compete with local Ford and Holden offerings.
I don't believe in FTA, because as your example shows, they aren't really for free trade. If two countries want to remove tarrif restrictions between each other economically, they should, but it must be a negotiated agreement where both parties reduce at the same time and there is no funny business. Kind of like what we have with New Zealand.
And again, I agree, subsidies are bad in general. If a sector can't compete, then we need to reduce overall tax rates in order to make them competitive. I have no doubt that the resource industry could be profitable without government assistance.
Local cars have a natural disadvantage in that we tend to have minuscule volumes compared to vastly exported international offerings, meaning we need more return per car to fund future models.Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_fool
I'm struggling to see what your point really is about pricing. In the above quote you are saying that ALL cars are overpriced. That's a whole other story. In comparison to many other cars available in Australia, our locals are excellent value. What cars cost overseas is of little or no importance, it's what all cars cost in Australia that matters. Large Aussie cars are similar in price to imported mid size models. You gain in size and lose in some other areas. That is a decision for the consumer to make as to what is most important, not us.
The fallout from the collapse of new car manufacturing would be extensive, perhaps far larger than you realise. There is a vast network of related companies out there that exist purely because the new car manufacturers require parts to build a car. Lose the manufacturers and you lose all them too...
That may be so for the domestic industry, but it still doesn't explain why overseas models are so much compared to our local offerings. It may have been justifiable when the Australian dollar was 2/3rds of what the American dollar, but not now. Prices should be going down as the returns are much greater due to the exchange rate for the foreign car makers.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
And you've basically admitted there that GMH was producing Pontiac G8s either for a loss, or at a substanially reduced price. If the G8 can be priced the way it was, why can't the local Commodore be?
The reason of course is that the Commodore and Falcon is a protected species in the Australian market and no other manufactuer's models in the same class are allowed to compete with it price wise (excluding the FWD locally built variants, but that really isn't competition in the same class), thus they are allowed to be so expensive because the market doesn't know any better. Commodore couldn't do this in the US, because better models were available at a more affordable price. Or inferior models at least at a more affordable price in case of the Mustang.
Well I shouldn't say that ALL cars are overpriced, but the ones that are in the same class as the local offerings certainly are, and so are the local offerings compared to the exact same vehicle in other markets like the US and Canada. This is despite the fact that our dollar is higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
I'm not a fool either. If something is better priced and better equiped elsewhere in the world, I want to be able to get it for a reasonable price. Same with computers, same with TVs, same with cars.
What cars cost overseas is of GRAVE importance. If a car is made overseas in Germany/Japan, and then sold in the US, Canada and Britain for a significantly reduced sum compared to our own equivilent of the model, something is wrong with our system. We're paying more for less.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
And those mid size models are cheaper again outside our market.
Ford Taurus, which would be in the same class as our Ford Mondeo.
http://www.ford.com/cars/taurus/pricing/
>$26,350
http://www.caradvice.com.au/121983/2...ices-revealed/
>$30,990
I could do this with pretty much anything to prove that we're getting ripped off compared to our Northern Hemisphere cousins.
I didn't say I'm advocating for local manufacturing to die, but if it isn't competitive enough to produce a model that will rival other brands, or at least price it appropriately, it should be left to die. I'm not going to waste my money on a substandard product for a higher price.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
The point of a business is not to create unsustainable jobs as the government might tell you, it is to make a profit. If a business can't make a profit, it needs to downsize to reflect the market reality and change its business model. Or maybe even downsize the car for once.
Local cars are expensive because -Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
They are built by highly paid factory workers
Who get four weeks off a year with 17% more pay
Have the right to go off and have kids for 9 months paid leave (or whatever it is)
Have pro-rate after 7 years
Have Super paid for them
Cannot be dismissed without a massive settlement in most cases
and - have minimal productivity checking
Compare this with the Asian factory worker where pay rates are slim and productivity focus high and the reason why our Holdens and Fords cost so much becomes quite clear. The Aussie worker is on a great wicket thats for sure - nothing wrong with it at all - just dont expect any of our products to be competitive - even locally let alone internationally. You can have one....or the other. Not both.
But that's not just for cars. Look at Apple's US prices and then locally, or Microsoft, Panasonic, etc....I don't think many things have dropped in price at all with the increase in $Aust apart from tv's. My last new TV was a 32" crt Loewe in 2005 for $2500, cannot believe what monster I can buy for the same money today, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by serial_fool
You keep getting hung up on the price of cars overseas vs here.Quote:
Originally Posted by serial_fool
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but almost EVERYTHING in life is priced at a level the standard of living of that particular country will allow, once you factor in external influences like taxes, duties and so forth.
The US has cheaper cars, but they also have lower wages, cheaper houses, cheaper petrol and many other things in life.
Back in Aus, it can cost $3000 per month to rent a modest house in a mining town, whereas the same place in a non mining town could be $1000 month. It costs 3 times the amount to rent because the people working the mines earn 3 times the pay.
Do you see the link yet??? You can't buy new cars off the internet from America, so, as I said, the price they are over there is of little or no importance. You would perhaps be wise to starting thinking of the price of items as a percentage of weekly pay per country, rather than a dollar figure. It might might make the whole equation easier to understand...
Every country in the world supports their car industries, I can tell you for a fact US, Asia and Europe governments pump a ton more money into their own car companys than what Aus does. We have done excellent for the amount of funding we get. And people who say commodore and falcon are propped up by all the fleet purchases? well i got news for you. Every country in the world buys their own cars for there government and fleet purchases why wouldnt you its your nations product.
And this is exactly the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
You are correct in that the above is PART of the answer. Labour is part of the cost of producing a vehicle, but not all of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
Anyone familiar with the term "economies of scale" will already know that an overseas manufacturer producing 500,000 of model X for the whole planet per year will pay substantially less (per unit) for what they require off a supplier than a local manufacturer that requires "only" 75,000 or so of said part per year.
True Davo, but this doesnt explain how Holden were selling the VE/G8 for around $25K in the USD when the dollar was near parity....Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
I explained a big part of that just a few posts back. The US has many fundamental differences to Australia...and all over the world, many products are priced relative to the competition, rather than being a simple cost plus fixed margin equation no matter where you go. We also have absolutely no idea in internet forum land what sort of contra deals may have gone on behind the scenes with the cost of major components and so forth for US bound cars to make it all sweeter priced for the yanks....since stuff like engines, transmissions etc come from there to begin with...Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
Certain people are continually obsessed with the subject of the price of items between countries, but since you can't buy new cars direct from America, it's how a car is priced relative to it's competition in Australia that matters.
Check out what deals can be had on VE's since the GFC, and you'll realise that comparing RRP's is a crock of sh!t way to compare countries. We EXPECT to pay well under the RRP in Australia, whereas in the US, the dumbasses are prepared to pay ABOVE RRP for a popular model!
Would you like to upsize that order Sir...:eek:
I suppose the bottom line is a typical VE SS costs Holden probably close to $10K to build from the ground up. If the Yanks buy them for $25K then the network makes $15K. If the Aussies buy them for $50K then the network makes $40K. Countries that are used to paying more, keep paying more, as thats the way the world goes round :)
You can always place your protest vote by not buying ANY car in Australia, and start riding your tricycle everywhere...:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
Why do you think around 50 different manufacturers all reckon they can make money selling only 1,000,000 new cars per year in Australia? Because our standard of living leads to cars being priced at the levels they are at! Most houses aren't "worth" remotely what they are priced at in Australia either, but they keep selling, because our standard of living makes (most of) them relatively affordable. Just as cars are. :yup:
Have you looked at the cost of building a new house these days? Materials and labour cost a shedload.Quote:
Originally Posted by planetdavo
Also, I find it hard to believe Holden would be making much profit selling large cars at around $30k. If they were they wouldn't need to have their hand out to goverment.
Wouldn't you take free money if people were offering it?Quote:
Originally Posted by VYBerlinaV8