VF SS/SSV Sportswagon not available - Order Possible??

In a "perfect world" people could buy whatever they want, and issues like balancing engineering, manufacturing and marketing costs vs return on investment wouldn't be an issue.
Why was there a VE V8 manual wagon, but no VF version?
The answer isn't that hard to find.
VE was developed in a period of prosperity for large local cars, when many thousands were still being sold each month. There was easily enough sales to justify covering many of the various sales possibilities- even the low volume ones like this one.
The large car class has since dived, and more and more people are migrating to auto's as well.
Some have gone to other brands. What have you missed out on doing so? No "grunt"? Bit small? Handles like a truck?
End of the day you ALWAYS have to weigh up what you gain and what you lose between different options. Rarely ever will one car tick every single box!

So... I thought I'd do a bit of a comparison last night. Took the Omega wagon out but drove it in full manual mode. Taking just about driveability and shift feel, I guess it's acceptable, but only just. With some tweaks on the line pressure it's not too bad combined with some VVT tweaks it's not bad for a 3.0L. I guess with some more work, the shift feel might be improved more, but it'd still never match a manual for driver experience.

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Originally Posted by jkgmh

Just read a VF SSV wagon pulled 216rwkw stock !! So 20% driveline loss from 270fwkw...

Oh and it was an auto !!!

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Aren't the autos 260fwkw? If so that's only 17% loss which is pretty good considering the figures I typically see bandied about are mid 20s for A6. FWIW my L76 A6 ute pulled 201rwkw stock on Chev's dyno, a 23% loss.

216 RWKW is a good number for an A6, my M6 had a 18% power loss when it was stock (221 RWKW)

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Originally Posted by cashie

No way, the line already switches between auto and manual for the utes and sedans, how is doing a manual wagon going to slow the production? Tooling, surely this also already exists as this section of the car would be common on all body types. I reckon I'm lucky to see 10-20% of VE Wagons with a towbar, can't see that being the reason.

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Only reason is money. Holden are hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Trust me, its money driven...

Sold 3 Auto V8 VF's today :)

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Originally Posted by Wonky

Aren't the autos 260fwkw? If so that's only 17% loss which is pretty good considering the figures I typically see bandied about are mid 20s for A6. FWIW my L76 A6 ute pulled 201rwkw stock on Chev's dyno, a 23% loss.

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Thanks Gaz was my bad...260fwkw AFM in auto

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Originally Posted by planetdavo

In a "perfect world" people could buy whatever they want, and issues like balancing engineering, manufacturing and marketing costs vs return on investment wouldn't be an issue.
Why was there a VE V8 manual wagon, but no VF version?
The answer isn't that hard to find.
VE was developed in a period of prosperity for large local cars, when many thousands were still being sold each month. There was easily enough sales to justify covering many of the various sales possibilities- even the low volume ones like this one.
The large car class has since dived, and more and more people are migrating to auto's as well.
Some have gone to other brands. What have you missed out on doing so? No "grunt"? Bit small? Handles like a truck?
End of the day you ALWAYS have to weigh up what you gain and what you lose between different options. Rarely ever will one car tick every single box!

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Come on. I know you think Holden can do no wrong and the customer is never right, but in this case people are not asking for a new variant or a hitherto unbuilt combination, they are asking for something for which all the components already exist and were regularly put together in that combination in the VE.

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales, but none has been offered.

I cannot understand an argument that it would cost Holden too much to do something it was already doing, or that it is not worth Holden chasing a few hundred extra sales a year at a time when it needs every last sale and then some,

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Originally Posted by Marco

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed e,

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My understanding from talking to engineers at Holden and Mitsubishi (in the days of the 380) is that every model and drivetrain has to be engineered and certified separately if there are weight and other differences. Imagine the issues for NVH and durability testing etc. that multiple drivetrains in the SS would generate. Most people have no idea what goes into making a modern car work and deliver the class objectives and manufacturer standards for NVH, durability etc. And there are production complexities and marketing costs. Which is why most manufacturers are reducing complexity in their ranges. Particularly in low volume vehicles. Because of the low volume, Holden has little money to spend on development. And the Commodore is a ridiculously low volume for a mass market car. No wonder they want to reduce complexity.

Holden are now making say about 45=50.000 vehicles pa off their platform plus a modest number of Camaros which don't share a huge amount share the platform. VAG make about 4.5m vehicles of their Golf 5/6 platform pa (shifting progressively to MQB). They have an absolutely giant amount more to spend on development. The VF only has its great new electronic network with up to date systems because GM kicked in because of needing it to be competitive in the US. Holden have acknowledged that they could never have afforded to change the electronics of the Commodore to bring it up to date. They are only surviving because of handouts as it is.

Every variation brings complexity and cost. And very few people are interested in buying manual cars any more. Check out the sales. BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

BTW, I sat in a VF SSV today at the dealer, and boy is the interior a huge improvement over the sad VE. Not that keen on the interior style but the materials and equipment are so much better its not funny. Mind you, I thought the fit of a number of things in and out was poor with some poor colour matching also. On a white car! Hopefully will get better. Had this been available last year when I bought my new car, I would have give it serious consideration.

theres a simple solution to all those complaining about the auto's... buy a tuning package and modify the factory shift settings.

it's not that complicated really.

I honestly think driving a manual is just a novelty now and get's annoying fast.

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Originally Posted by powerd

BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

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I did and plan to again.

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Originally Posted by Tre-Cool

theres a simple solution to all those complaining about the auto's... buy a tuning package and modify the factory shift settings.

it's not that complicated really.

I honestly think driving a manual is just a novelty now and get's annoying fast.

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Been there, done that (as you know) .......

Some of us just prefer a manual. I drive one every day in Melbourne traffic and it rarely gets annoying. I like knowing what gear I'm in just by where the gear stick sits, no need to look at the dash, you just know. I like that the gear I choose, is the gear I choose and I can skip gears if I feel like it and still know exactly what gear is in use. I like "preempting" the required gear when coming into corners etc and I like the additional engine braking.

I know that the A6 has manual shift mode, but it's still sluggish on the response to shifts. It's good, but not great. I also know that Holden need to build to the biggest market, so understand why they have done this. It's a better option to Holden going the same way as Ford.... I may just need to go a Redline sedan instead, but it won't be a really "happy" choice. On the other hand, the missus would love the auto, which just goes to show that autos are for girls...... :hide: oh, and drag racers.

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Originally Posted by powerd

BTW, this forum does not represent the typical new Commodore buyer, not even close. How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

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Seriously? Have you read the http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthre...red-A-VF-Gen-F thread? It's now into its second page.

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Originally Posted by swingtan

Seriously? Have you read the http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthre...red-A-VF-Gen-F thread? It's now into its second page.

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Good thread that one !!!! :dance: No VF sportwagons on the list...1 x Tourer so far

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Originally Posted by jkgmh

Good thread that one !!!! :dance: No VF sportwagons on the list...1 x Tourer so far

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I was referring to "How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet." not specifically Sportwagons......

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Originally Posted by powerd

My understanding from talking to engineers at Holden and Mitsubishi (in the days of the 380) is that every model and drivetrain has to be engineered and certified separately if there are weight and other differences. Imagine the issues for NVH and durability testing etc. that multiple drivetrains in the SS would generate. Most people have no idea what goes into making a modern car work and deliver the class objectives and manufacturer standards for NVH, durability etc. And there are production complexities and marketing costs. Which is why most manufacturers are reducing complexity in their ranges. Particularly in low volume vehicles. Because of the low volume, Holden has little money to spend on development. And the Commodore is a ridiculously low volume for a mass market car. No wonder they want to reduce complexity.

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I can understand this argument, and it's what I was getting at when I said "or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales"; I just find it a bit hard to understand on a variant that already existed. The V8 engine and manual gearbox have not, as I understand it, changed at all from VEII to VF. HSV continues to offer this combination. I understand what you're saying, but it would make more sense as a justification for not offering, say, an SV6 manual wagon which had not been built before, not an SS manual wagon which was available last month.

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How many of you guys buy a Holden Commodore new anyway - not many, I'll bet.

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I only buy new. (Old Beetle excepted, obviously!)

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BTW, I sat in a VF SSV today at the dealer, and boy is the interior a huge improvement over the sad VE. Not that keen on the interior style but the materials and equipment are so much better its not funny. Mind you, I thought the fit of a number of things in and out was poor with some poor colour matching also. On a white car! Hopefully will get better. Had this been available last year when I bought my new car, I would have give it serious consideration.

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Which dealer?

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Originally Posted by Marco

Come on. I know you think Holden can do no wrong and the customer is never right, but in this case people are not asking for a new variant or a hitherto unbuilt combination, they are asking for something for which all the components already exist and were regularly put together in that combination in the VE.

I could understand if there was some technical reason why it wouldn't work in the VF, or there was some engineering work needed to make a manual VF wagon work that couldn't be justified on sales, but none has been offered.

I cannot understand an argument that it would cost Holden too much to do something it was already doing, or that it is not worth Holden chasing a few hundred extra sales a year at a time when it needs every last sale and then some,

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You can think what you want, but you would be da fool for thinking it.
Wake up to the meaning of "commercial realities".
Introducing a manual WAGON with L77 is NOT an existing product in VF! The box might be "existing", the tailshaft might be "existing" etc etc, but they are only parts. They are the cheap bits.
Introducing this option would require at the bare minimum a new wagon specific main wiring harness, new ESP program, and a new round of engineering validation. Wagon needs a different harness to sedan, and the HSV one isn't suitable either as it's made for different options.
So, MILLIONS of dollars!
For a handful of sales. Divide that across what, a couple of hundred sales a year AT BEST? 200 sales for (unrealistically) "only" one million dollars development cost would be $5000 per car in the first year before costs are covered. Two million would be $5000 per car for two years before costs are covered. Three million would be $5000 per car for three years before costs are covered. And finally, whereas HSV can charge a healthy premium for their cars to redeem costs over a small sales projection, Holden CANNOT.
Don't think it would cost 3 million to launch a manual VF V8 wagon option?
Think again!!!