Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
macca_779
I cut it off because it's irrelevant and you were just waffling bullshit as you have again clogging up this thread with crap.
Happy to discuss the merits of the new Gixxer. But don't get your panties in a twist when someone else argues a point that doesn't align with the Suzuki marketing machine.
I think VCT has merit. Never argued that. Just stating there are quite a few other very successful brands that have had VCT for much longer than Suzuki but have made the decision not to implement it in their bikes.
Now you're comparing cars to bikes after I pointed out mech VCT wasn't a Suzuki invention lol. But ok let's do that. An S14 doesn't do it so well, cool. These things are what, over 20 years old and early in the development! Let's look at Toyota VVT-I. Honda VTECH, BMW VANOS, FORD VCT etc etc etc. How many Falcon Taxis kicking around with half a million k's and VCT working just fine lol!! Yeah real unreliable [emoji25]
Back on topic. BIKES!! Honda VTEC is rock solid! Has been for years. Yet again though. They don't bother on the Fireblade. WHY???
Irrelevant you say.... It’s totally relevant to the topic at hand and here is why......
It clearly shows the actual case where a Major Manufacturer GM, went from a cheap and simple pushrod / single cam 16 valve design after decades of use, to the LT5 ZR1 expensive and complicated quad over head cam, 32 valve design. Then only a few years later, they reverted back to the simple and cheap, pushrod / single cam 16 valve design again... Why, the LT5 was to expensive and cost too much to build, for only the small gains that it produced at the time... They have well and truly exceed the power outputs since, with the cheap and simple pushrod design still, right up to current times... My point being, expensive complicated valve train systems aren’t the, be all end all...
You implied that all... VCT system are very reliable with this statement “why the hell would they when electro/hydraulic VCT is very reliable”, hense why I pickup you up on this point, where the SR20 DET VVT system clearly isn’t.
Comparing a VCT Ford taxi just putting around half a million K’s, to a SR20 DET getting driven flat out at 7000 RPM by everyone that owns one everyday, is a poor comparison sorry...
Is the Suzuki VVT the best system, no...... Is the Suzuki VVT the worst system no......
It’s simple as this....It was fully developed by them already, the system was already sitting on their shelf. The most cost effective solution for them obviously, was to simply install it onto their new Super Sport road bike, in which the system was already fully tested, from years of racing with it.
Designing a whole new electronic/hydraulic untested VVT system, would of cost crazy coin for them to design and develope....
It all comes down to cost...
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
GM didn't revert back to shit. The ZR1 was a limited run engine. AN LS7 costs more and is still pushrod. It's a stupid example you're putting forward. It's all about economy of scale. If OHV was so much more cost effective you would see it in budget model cars.
Falcon VCT not being punished! Ok then. What about all the XR6-Ts kicking around with VCT working fine. Give it up mate.
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
macca_779
GM didn't revert back to shit. The ZR1 was a limited run engine. AN LS7 costs more and is still pushrod. It's a stupid example you're putting forward. It's all about economy of scale. If OHV was so much more cost effective you would see it in budget model cars.
Falcon VCT not being punished! Ok then. What about all the XR6-Ts kicking around with VCT working fine. Give it up mate.
This ain't no "stupid example" or "irrelevant" or "waffling bullshit" as you claim..... It's Fact from GM...
The LS7 costs more than the LT5, Totally Wrong........ the LT5 was $25000K when they where designing the C5 corvette. Almost double the cost of an LS7, and would cost far greater in today's money....
They backed the Gen III small block, reverting back to the simple, compact, cheaper, pushrod design, "even with it roots dated back almost 50 years..."
Retired Corvette Chief Engineer, Dave McLellan talks about why the Gen III doomed the LT5, from book "Corvette From the Inside".
From page 233: Why the Gen III Doomed the LT5
"The contrast between the Gen III [LS1/LS6 engine] and the LT5 engine is striking. The LT5 is both taller and wider, as a result of its double overhead-cam cylinder heads and its complex intake manifold. It became apparent that the next generation Corvette, if it were designed solely around the Gen III small block, could be significantly smaller and lighter than if it had to accommodate the LT5 engine.
Studies based on a large population of modern cars have given us the standard relationship between engine weight and total vehicle weight. Increasing an engine's weight by one pound means that the total car's weight will likely increase by two pounds. We estimated that taking 80 lbs out of the Corvette's engine would allow us to remove another 80 lbs from the chassis. In the case of the Gen III, reducing the engine's length would also contribute significant savings. Weight reduction of this magnitude is only possible when you're designing a car from scratch.
The planned future LT5 engine, with its even more complex valve train, would have been 205 lbs heavier than the aluminum Gen III. Thus a Corvette designed around the Gen III aluminum engine would weigh around 405 pounds less than the same car designed to use the LT5. As a result, the LT5 engine would have had to generate 55 hp more than the Gen III, simply to compensate for the heavier car. With the Gen III generating 405 net hp and the future LT5 estimated at 475 net hp, the effective power gain would have been a mere 15 horsepower. And, given an estimated $25,000 price premium for the LT5 engine, the cost of this small increment of power is astronomical.
The Corvette had reached a crossroads. We could design the C5 around the LT5 engine or we could design a smaller, lighter car that was fitted like a glove around the Gen III small block. By opting for the smaller package, we could achieve ZR-1 performance at the price of a standard Corvette. This was too important an opportunity to ignore. As we explored it further, we convinced ourselves and Chevrolet that this was the right strategy for the next generation Corvette. This, however left us with the conundrum that the far-superior Gen III might seem, to the consumer, to be low tech.
The Gen III uses computer management to control fuel and timing, providing smoothness, high power, and efficiency -- a very high-tech feature, but eariler forms of control -- such as the four-valve combustion chamber -- were what the public perceived as modern technology. We knew that the Gen III LS1 would do just fine without these older features, as they came at such a high price, in terms of size, weight, and complexity. Like the consumer, we had been accepting the notion that complexity was good. Yet, here was one case where just the opposite was occurring. The simple solution was almost as powerful, and it was smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more fuel-efficient. Whether it was considered high-tech or not, the Gen III was the better engine. So, in the end, the only logical choice was to back the Gen III small block as the Corvette's engine of the future -- even if it's roots dated back almost 50 years."
No need to name, every single other engine that has a reliable VCT system.... Your the one that implied ALL... VCT system's are very reliable, in the first instance, Not Me...... ""why the hell would they when electro/hydraulic VCT is very reliable"...
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Ok the LT5 was expensive. Thanks for the history lesson.
You're banging on about the SR20 as a sole example of an unreliable VCT. Ok sure. When I said all I was referring to 2017 applications like used in everything from a Toyota Corolla to a BMW M5. Don't take shit so literal, stuff breaks from time to time, even pushrod LS1s right! But overall in "2017" electro hydraulic VCT is extremely reliable. FACT!!!
Now can you please answer my one question!! Why do you think if VCT was so good for the sports bike segment would a company like Honda not include it in the Fireblade. I think this is the 4th time I've asked you.
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Toni Elias GSX-R sounds Awesome...
Link
This is the bike in the video...
http://www.motoamerica.com/sites/mot...XaWlf&fc=50,50
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
macca_779
Ok the LT5 was expensive. Thanks for the history lesson.
You're banging on about the SR20 as a sole example of an unreliable VCT. Ok sure. When I said all I was referring to 2017 applications like used in everything from a Toyota Corolla to a BMW M5. Don't take shit so literal, stuff breaks from time to time, even pushrod LS1s right! But overall in "2017" electro hydraulic VCT is extremely reliable. FACT!!!
Now can you please answer my one question!! Why do you think if VCT was so good for the sports bike segment would a company like Honda not include it in the Fireblade. I think this is the 4th time I've asked you.
Cost and complexity of their system, for added actual gain it provides....
Only Honda knows the answer to this question...
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Exactly!!!!! The power gains it provides must be so minor that they have determined its simply not worth it. But for something like a VFR where economy and low end drivability are more important, that's where they have chosen to employ it.
I'm looking forward to seeing some back to back dyno results of the new Gixxer compared to the other bikes around. Besides the VCT there is actually some decent upgrades they have rolled into it. Of course I'm still rooting for BMW as I own one. But hey, competition is good for everyone.
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
macca_779
Ok the LT5 was expensive. Thanks for the history lesson.
You're banging on about the SR20 as a sole example of an unreliable VCT. Ok sure. When I said all I was referring to 2017 applications like used in everything from a Toyota Corolla to a BMW M5. Don't take shit so literal, stuff breaks from time to time, even pushrod LS1s right! But overall in "2017" electro hydraulic VCT is extremely reliable. FACT!!!
Now can you please answer my one question!! Why do you think if VCT was so good for the sports bike segment would a company like Honda not include it in the Fireblade. I think this is the 4th time I've asked you.
Yes the Quad Over Head Cam 32 valve, LT5 engine was very expensive and complicated, my whole point...
Stop making stuff up and making false statements, when clearly, you had no idea what the cost of the LT5 was, but you still said the LS7 was more expensive...
Brand new stuff isn't automatically reliable, its still brand new.... It has to be tested over time, to prove its reliability...
Everything wears out over time, nothing is perfect for ever, and a lot comes down to, how it was used or abused and if or if not, the system has been maintained and serviced correctly.
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Looking very promising for the all new 2017 GSX-R1000/R...
Quote... "Michael was faster this year than he ever has been at Cartagena, which is only a good thing"...
Press Release from Team Suzuki Press office...
BENNETTS SUZUKI CONFIDENT AFTER SPANISH TESTS
Team Suzuki Press Office – March 6.
Bennetts Suzuki concluded a positive five-day test in the south of Spain in Cartagena and Almeria with the all-new Suzuki GSX-R1000 as preparations continue for the 2017 MCE British Superbike Championship and international road racing season. With the opening round of the BSB championship less-than a month away, the team had plenty of work to be carried out, including assessing the full potential of the already-impressive base-package from Suzuki.
Taylor Mackenzie, who returns to the Superbike class in 2017, spent most of the test exploring the bike's potential, running a number of standard components; including a standard engine. The 24-year-old completed an impressive number of laps to give important feedback on the bike's strengths and also work on a base-setting he was comfortable with.
He was joined by Richard Cooper for the full five days of the test, as Cooper and the team looked to better-understand the bike and the direction to take with set-up of his Superstock GSX-R machine. For three days at Cartagena the team made big adjustments to the bike, assessing how it responded and reacted to the changes, before settling on a comfortable base set-up. At Almeria, the 2011 National Superstock 1000 champion pushed harder to post a string of consistently-fast lap-times and work on his race-pace, and is now geared-up for the opening round of the championship.
Taylor Mackenzie:
“The test was mega, I love the bike, it's so good and the five days couldn't really have gone any better. If someone said beforehand that this was how it would have gone I'd have bitten their hand off. I spent the first part of the test just learning to ride with BSB-spec electronics and without traction control, as that's different for me for this year. And then we were fine-tuning chassis set-up. For things like that it's good to be having a second year with the team as we know how each other works and we're just picking-up where we left off in that regard. But I did plenty of laps and set personal best lap-times at both circuits. It was also good to ride with Sylvain (Guintoli) at Almeria as I can learn a lot from him. Hopefully the weather will be kind at the Donington Park test and we'll work on getting my bike set-up for the first race weekend, but I'm really excited to get back on it.”
Richard Cooper:
“We've had a really good test, for everybody. The bike's not missed a beat and it was good to finally be able to ride at pace and not be so tentative. We spent a lot of time playing about with it to see what works and what doesn't. Our pace over one lap is good and also over race runs of 22-25 laps. Our pace on used tyres is good and really important, too. I was actually surprised how little we lost over race distance on one rear tyre. Lap times were really consistent, which we're really pleased about. The bike's strength is definitely from the middle of the corner to how it finishes a turn. Which is good as that carries you onto the straights. If round one was next weekend I'd be ready to go. The next test will be good to see all of our rivals on track, and also work on a settings specific for Donington Park, but I'm feeling really positive and looking forward to racing now.”
Roads campaigner Michael Dunlop spent the bulk of the test riding the Superbike he will race at this year's Isle of Man TT races, as well as the opening round of the BSB series at Donington Park. The Northern Irishman tested a number of new factory and Yoshimura components and worked on the set-up of his GSX-R1000, before setting a new personal best lap time around the Cartagena circuit.
The team's other British Superbike rider, Sylvain Guintoli, missed the first three days of the test at Cartagena due to personal reasons, but was able to join the team for two days at Almeria, where he tested the bike with both the standard engine and chassis, as well as the full BSB-spec Superbike. The former World Superbike Champion was able to draw comparisons after back-to-back tests and highlight areas to further-focus on for development, but was pleased with the progress made and the work carried out.
Steve Hicken – Team Manager:
“We're really happy. Everyone talks about potential, but I think we've got it and we're right on-point after two productive tests. It was important for us to really push the standard package and Taylor did a great job of putting in the laps. It also helped him get really acquainted with the new GSX-R and then work on his base set-up.
“Michael was faster this year than he ever has been at Cartagena, which is only a good thing, and he's very happy with how it's gone so far and knows how much more there is to come. Sylvain also flew-out to join us at Almeria after missing the days at Cartagena, and rode both the BSB-spec Superbike and standard package to assess the differences and help feedback on areas to focus on. But again, the times were really good and he's positive and confident.
“We're also ready to go in this year's Superstock Championship. Cooper did a great job putting the laps-in and he was fast at both tests. I think we could go racing now with him and be on the money. We were making big changes to the bike at Cartagena - going every which way with the set-up to understand how the bike behaved and responded. It meant we could work out what we needed to do to get the bike how he liked it, and he was able to really push-on at Almeria and set fast lap-times. Everyone in the team is really excited about what we've been able to achieve so far and where we're at. We've got one more test at Donington Park and then we're doing it for real.”
The official MCE British Superbike test will take place at Donington Park on March 22nd, before round one gets underway at the Leicestershire circuit from March 31-April 2nd.
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Bennetts Suzuki - Onboard the 2017 Suzuki GSX-R1000 with Taylor Mackenzie from last weeks test in Spain...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVtxYILmxQ0
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
New Promo video, just released by Suzuki, 15th March 2017...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOXL6KvgghU
Re: 2017 GSX-R1000/R World Media Launch at Phillip Island This week...
Josh Waters during practice session at Wakefield Park, ASBK Round 2...
https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...76&oe=592D428F
