Not sure if this has been posted?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...herill/3765126
Cheers
Zombee :)
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Not sure if this has been posted?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...herill/3765126
Cheers
Zombee :)
If govenments are prepared to put money into the "second rate" Ford product(as of today), they'll come good with $$$ for Holden.
All part of the gamesmanship. Ford have just scabbed some money of the Federal and Victorian Governments to keep the Falcon going till late 2016 (including an upgrade in 2014) so GM will be doing the "gee we are thinking about shutting Holden" and the politicians such as Weatherill shit themselves and start shovelling over the cash to keep Holden in business. Now that Ford has got a handout Holden will get one for the 2018 Commodore, so bad news for taxpayers but good news for us Holden fans.
Cheers, Matthew
I read somewhere earlier today that Holden have been receiving handouts (albeit much smaller) for the last few years.
This isn't the article I was reading, but you get the point: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...ction=business
Despite whether either Ford or GM are genuine about shutting down plants because of bad business, the state and federal governments will prop them up because they don't want to be seen as presiding over the loss of potentially thousands of jobs.
This happens every few years
The pollies get together with GM and do a deal with taxpayers money, and in return get kickbacks from the scheme
The news stations make it sound like the end of the world and everyone is out of work. The Toyota and Mazda buying public get on the box and state "I dont mind paying a little more every week to save Holden". Bullseye.
Everyones pockets get lined, apart from the taxpayers - we just get to suck it up as per usual :teach:
Thread mine this in another three years :lol:
Oh Boo Hoo!
We are only 1 of 13 nations that can design and manufacture cars on this planet. What country doesn't support it's car industry?
I'm sick of people whingeing about poor taxpayers - at least we get taxes, secondary manufacturing, advancement of skills from Ford Holden and Toyota's manufacturing.
What do we get from our out of control refugee problem, carbon tax and dole bludgers? These bug me far more than throwing a bit of money at an industry which always has to be at the forefront of new technology.
Supporting industry IS fantastic if one day the industry is able to be in a position to support itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carby
Nothing wrong with Holden or the product, just Australia is not a very good place to manufacture anything these days with out of control Industrial Relations and tax after tax pricing the product out of the international game. Supporting industry IS fantastic if one day the industry is able to be in a position to support itself. The way Australian manufacturing is heading, this is questionable without major reform. Certainly Holden and Ford have been living of government handouts since day dot.
Tax for the sake of tax is not fantastic. At least not to me.
Nothing will change, we will just pay more tax, and there will be more smiley news reports backed by the government to make us feel good about it.
Calm down Pauline!Quote:
Originally Posted by Carby
So true, I mean how much income tax do the employees of Ford, Holden and Toyota pay back to the government, how much GST is paid by these companies, payroll tax, upskilling it's workforce, even something as absurdly basic as the number of take-away meals sold over the road to the plant (well in Campbellfield anyway)....I don't hear anyone complaining about the "finaicial penalties" the Thai government imposed on imported vehicles killing say Ford Territory exports overnight and yet how many tens of thousands of cars and utes (Hiluxes, Rangers, BT, Hondas) etc..come back here under the FTA. Every car manufacturer gets some form of assistance, be it planning permit approvals all the way to tax breaks and some form of monetary subsidy. Bear in mind the locals have to spend money to receive anything, it's not a dole handout. In the same street as my work is a supplier to Toyota. That's 40 workers and familes, maybe 120 people directly working or related to this businesses employees. The money they earn and spend comes from supplying Toyota which is repeated with hundreds, maybe thousands of inter-dealing businesses in the automotive supply chain for Toyota, Ford and Holden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carby
In the 1970's my parents actually bought one of the first Philips colour TV's, a two speaker, mono output, walnut cabinet unit built right here in Clayton, Victoria, 10 minutes from our house....It lasted 16 years, used by 4 children, day and night, and literally just wore itself out....how many people would even know that tv's were actually built here at one stage. I know personally the ability of some Ford employees as would some here for Holden and maybe Toyota. They work their backsides off trying to achieve the best they can an shoe string budgets often accomplishing results that astound their parent company collegues once they see how much they spent in their programs. Once these skills are nolonger needed here they're lost forever. And that saddens me because I work in manufacturing.
oops deleted double post.
Late last year Holden's Managing Director delivered what I thought quite a good speech re government funding and support for local manufacturing...it is quite long so won't post it here, but the full transcript can be found part way down this article.
http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2011...ess-club-27977
Surprisingly frank, given at times he heaps praise on local Ford product. Worth the read if you have the time and have not yet read it.
I just did not like the sound of these points in one article I read
Quote:
However, it seems increasingly unlikely that one of those models will include another rear-drive, Australian-developed Commodore large car after the life of the next model, the VF, that hits the showrooms in 2014.
Quote:
Federal manufacturing minister Kim Carr, who went face to face with GM bosses including GM chairman and CEO Dan Akerson in a backroom meeting at the Detroit motor show today, raised the spectre of the demise of the home-grown breed when he later described the current Commodore as an orphan in GM’s model line-up and said that global platforms were a reality for the car industry.
Quote:
“This is not the 1950s any more,” said Mr Carr. “The fact remains that global platforms are a reality.”
Quote:
The VF Commodore is safe, and will retain the rear-drive format when it arrives in about 2014.
But it is increasingly likely that GM is planning to bin that Australian format in favour of one of its global front-drive architectures when the VF’s life is up around 2018-20.
Quote:
However, his remarks about wanting to manufacture vehicles in mass-selling market segments – which in Australian terms most likely means the small-car, light-car and compact SUV classes – would indicate a new Commodore is unlikely.
boo ****ing hoo to gm and ford.
cant run a competitive business you close up or go out of business.
Yeah but, I think they have a right to whinge. As most of the Australian car buying public nowdays are buying Imports instead of the large aussie cars. If the support is not there, how can they survive. We Holden / Commodore car enthusiasts want Commodore to remain in production - But unfortuantly we're being outnumbered by people with the "its just a car" attitude and all they want is somthing to get from A to B, uses bugger all fuel, cheap to buy, not worried about space and comfort, not worried weather the driving wheels are the back or the front etc. Cars like all the small Mazdas, Toyotas, etc
Then you get the "soft roader crowd" and all they want too look at is Rav 4's, X trails, Foresters, Klugers, etc
Then theres the increased popularity of 4x4 commercial vehicles as family transport such as Hilux, Navara, Triton, Colorado, BT-50, etc dual cab utes. Or the 4x4 wagons like Prado, Pajero, Landcruiser, etc.
All of the above are imports, are stiff competition for the traditional Commodore and Falcon that once dominated.
Part of my job is to slash the highway verges on the outskirts of town - and of the cars I would see over a 1/2 hour, Imported vehicles would outnumber Commodore's and Falcon's about 10 to 1. And its mostly small 4 cylinder sedans and hatches, or 4x4's and soft roaders
WELL SAID! SO F@#KING TRUE!! But wait, the ceo and board of directors won't get their annual half a million bonuses for sitting on their asses.. hahaha pathetic it is!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tre-Cool
Also to an earlier thread about them paying GST... They charge it too everyone else first, before they pay it back to ATO, so they don't pay shit on GST, we pay that too...
Just close the F@#king business..!!
but to be fair, the 4 cyclinder engines holden have been using have been gutless shit heaps with crap bodies.
the cruze is not bad car now with the turbo charged 1.4, all they need to do is put that in a barina body and put a nice looking sporty body kit on it and sell it as a small performance car.
This way they may get a cult following like the ls1 engined cars have thanks to the tuning/modibility. (they run an ecu similar the VE commodore so can be tuned)
Couldn't agree with you more, 100000% Imagine if every business was run as poorly as this. Take the emotion out of it and whats left is an uneconomical business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
the Government was the ones that f#3ked up in the first place, They wanted the Australian manufacturers to be able to compete on the global market so they keep dropping the Tariffs on imports. While doing this they signed up to useless free trade agreements which gave free kicks to importers again. Not long after we signed the FTA with thailand. Thialand introduced a special levy on imported vehicles over certain capacity which basically ended any hope of an export market for Holden and Ford with their utes.
When you look at every country in the world with a car industry they offer way more assistance either directly or indirectly then what the Australian Government does.
Could a reborn holden without GM survive or even take off? What assets does Holden actually own that GM don't have their hand in?
Why does Holden need government money anyway ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick1
They sell twice the amount of Commodores compared to Falcon and the Cruze is selling well, Holden has had heaps of government handouts over the years, not to mention the parent company GM getting it's ass saved by the US govt/tax payers.
Chevy have something for them on the horizon, and it is right wheel driveQuote:
Originally Posted by VL Executive
http://image.motortrend.com/f/361519...-quarter-1.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/361520...ncept-side.jpg
http://image.motortrend.com/f/350840...arters.JPG.jpg
Hmm, torque steer would be a bitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by seedyrom
Exactly - the question is 'why'?Quote:
Originally Posted by VL Executive
Birds of a feather flock together. No government I have seen if efficient especially this one. Giving cash to Holden of Ford is one of the more useful extras they have spent money on.Quote:
Originally Posted by the big fist
Martin (post 7) & VL Executive (post 14) both make very good points.
Holden simply does not have the range of vehicles to compete alongside the type of vehicles owners are choosing these days, nor can it afford to develop a car simply for Aus, there isn't the money for R/D...nor do I believe do we have a market big enough to support an Aussie designed car....we'd need exports to support it.....then we'd have to compete with the Koreans etc....in its entirety, an almost impossible task.
PLUS, manufacturing costs in Aus are HUGELY more than our competitors. Of course, as all have said "Govt Subsidies"......but,how long can they continue?
I never thought I'd see the end of Holden.....maybe I won't, but I reckon there's a distinct possibility that I will see the day when no cars are MANUFACTURED in Aus.....of any brand.
Cheers, Pickles.
You would have to wonder why the government would pump money into Falcon and Territory when no one buys them in the first place. They sell nothing.
Its all about keeping the safe seats in the heartland. The government that lets Holden or Ford die is the government that gets shown the door. Pumping money down the black hole that is Australian Auto manufacturing is a sensible piece of election trail campaigning and probably only costs as much as the numerous useless grants given to various hippies to make bongo drums from reclaimed river mud etc. GM and Ford know this, so when its time for some more money to offset sending production to China, they hold their hand out and they get rewarded. Every time. Mitsubishi werent that lucky as other than an Aussie connection through Peter Wherret they were viewed as a 'Jap' company, so they could be allowed to die. Pearl Harbour and all.
We might as well have Aussie cars, as like them or loathe them, they are good for everyone here in some roundabout way.
We just have to get used to pay a massive amount for these cars comparitive to a world market as the cost of making anything in Australia is through the roof thanks to our lethargic lifestyle and overly high expectations. As a guy with two teeth told me last week "If you aint on free grand a week mate youse a farking nuffing"
Nothing is worth making here as we are all overpaid compared to the world market. Pollies just set the tone for another round of wage rises for the country pushing us even further away, greedy lot here.
Buy ten homes in America for the price of one here. All food and commodities are cheaper overseas than here because we are a greedy lot.
All manufacturing is packing up and moving overseas to be able to compete with pricing because workers here are overpaid. Whos fault is that, everyone keeps asking for more each year, it adds costs right through everything from the delivery guy to the store.
We are not that lucky will be teetering on the point of collapse as we price ourselves out of the world
GM just want a hand because Ford is getting one.
A few of things to consider:
- Each time the government makes a handout to manufacturers it hands over OUR money, that paid in taxes by the "average" Australian. When we purchase these cars developed and built with taxpayer funding we still pay full whack for them. So my point is that we pay a lot more thann the sticker price.......BUT
- The government investing in the manufacturers helps to continue development programs, R&D, technology and a myriad of other industries, that not only benefit directly from car manufacturing, but also the technology and IP that finds its way into other aspects of life.
- What is cheaper.....funding the car industry or the the social security payments to misplaced workers?.....something to consider.
Now to the point about Holden not having a broad enough range, I agree. On a recent stay in France it struck me that an extremely large % of cars were French built ie. Peugots, Renault, Citroen. What was more interesting to observe is that hey all seem to have a vehicle in every catogry from light car to heavy transport. Yes critical mass has something to do with that, but there is a lot to be said for product range and giving the market what it wants.
This is the price of prosperity.Quote:
Originally Posted by vt2vx
if holden were seperate from GM, i reakon their exports would go up, because then they wouldnt be limited by the bean counters and nay sayers from going into new markets.
Think about it, they allready export to the arabs, the brazilians, the chinese under the chev brand in limited numbers anyway. Start selling the caprice to the yanks and smash em in their own back yard i say.
PicklesQuote:
Originally Posted by Pickles
I think you (and all else here with interest in this topic) should read this....
(its too long to post but here is the link to the GM press release)
http://media.gm.com/content/Pages/ne...%20Address.pdf
Its by FCAI President, Chairman and Managing Director of GMHolden, Mike Devereux
and explains a lot of what the industry (and GM Holdens) thinks about where it is today...and the future
its not all doom and gloom
Heres my suggestion to you - go buy your cheap Chery (where I'm sure it is made by employees who have all the benefits we Aussies have ) and then you can leave this forum as you obviously don't give a shite about the local industry nor it's products and thats what this forum is about - ohh and we wouldn't miss you................Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMCROWELL SAID! SO F@#KING TRUE!! But wait, the ceo and board of directors won't get their annual half a million bonuses for sitting on their asses.. hahaha pathetic it is!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tre-Cool
Also to an earlier thread about them paying GST... They charge it too everyone else first, before they pay it back to ATO, so they don't pay shit on GST, we pay that too...
Just close the F@#king business..!!
So where do you draw the line? Clothing industry, Shoe Industry, Food manufacturing - do we give up on manufacturing altogether as we are uncompetitive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
The trouble is that we are always subject to a new emerging country that has low wages and other costs and they are always going to make us uncompetitive. A classic case are Japanese cars - when they first arrived in Australia they were cheap - but once the workforce has a comparable standard of living to us they become expensive as well - hence why many Japanese models are made in other Asian countries.
Sure Martin let it all go without a fight, I'm sure we'll find our niche somewhere - maybe a service Industry as tourists flock to our shores as everything will be cheap as the government won't have any manufacturing companies to waste money on........
We're the ones with the lowest tariffs in the world. other countries protect their industry with subsidies and fake tariffs (eg korea's 'Education' tax).Quote:
Originally Posted by Carby
1. holden was set up for local production because when japan was sinking boats, we realised we couldn't rely on bringing cars from the UK anymore. how quickly we forget.
2. if ford local production disappears, so will holden and toyota
3. people say they support Australian made, then go buy a mazda.... go figure..
Quote:
Originally Posted by seedyrom
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by feistl
The Aussie manufacturing sector should fight like hell, and it should receive government assistance EQUALLY.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carby
The long term has to be that the Aussie manufacturers can stand on their own two feet....and not specific instances receive help because they are 'blue ribbon' electioneering material in a simpleton 'hearts and minds' campaign.
And if they cant' survive without being propped up by taxpayers? Thats because Aussies aren't buying Aussie made products.
If everyone here wants to help Holden and Ford be competitive - go out and hand over $50K+ for a brand new one
Territory was actually the best selling SUV of 2011 so I don't know where you get the idea that nobody buys them. Mostly private buyers for the Territory now that diesel has been introduced which means more profit for local car makers. Cruze on the other hand, even though it is selling well, isn't making much money for Holden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin_D
I stand by what I say....& what I say ain't just confined to the car industry.....it applies to ALL Aussie manufacturing, MORE & MORE, of which is going off-shore.....because our costs of manufacturing are too dear.....that embraces wages, penalty rates, L/S Leave, baby leave, "benefits"...HEAPS of stuff that ALL adds to the wages bill......compare our wages to those in China & South Korea.....and yeah I know...who wants to accept those conditions........BUT, there are MORE & MORE of us buying their product......where's the Aussie clothing industry gone?.....Off shore of course.
We have simply priced ourselves out of contention.....I say, in the manufacturing sector, it IS all doom & gloom....particularly in the long term.....I mean, what is going to turn things around? If you can give me the answer, I'll be very happy.
Cheers, Pickles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty
Yep, that is the transcript of the speech I was referring to earlier in this thread. It is quite long but a very good read, and he makes some very good points. Well worth the read, even if you don't agree with everything he says, and interestingly it is not laden with a heap of self promotion or spruiking of Holden products as you might expect, and he even heaps praise on what Ford are doing with their latest engines (not the S/C 5.0 that gets most of the press around here).
Some of the Ford num nuts are loving this on the Ford forum.
Crusty bogans stuck in the 70's they sound like.
They dont realise who the real enemy is... Japan inc.