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Unfortunately most of us don't have the spare dollars (or permission from significant other) to spend a bunch of cash on many mods at the same time. That leaves us with doing a bit at a time. Given the bit at a time approach, if you had a Calais V V8 with single spinner diff to start with, what order would you do the modifications in?
in no particular order, some options are.
cat back
diff (TruTrack)
OTR / Tune
breaks
extractors / cats
speakers
etc
??
diff gears
tune/otr
i feel these are the 2 most gains for $ spent.
the rest is really the little bits to gain on the most you will achieve.
Garry
im not sure what ratio the manuals have, but a set of manual gears in the auto should make it drive alot better around town. and convert to lsd/trutrack
Garry
1. Brakes
2. Suspension
3. More power
I.e. the exact opposite to how most people do it.
do diff gears 3.7s if its an a4 and just standard lsd upgrade !!! trutrac while being great I run one myself if money is tight standard tightened lsd is fine !!! then do exhaust even look secondhand then an otr and tune to tie it all together !!!! cheers
Your Calais will have 2.92 gears, same as my A6 ute had. I bought a very low km 3.45 diff from a guy who was upgrading his M6 SS to the 3.7s from a M6 HSV. 2.92 to 3.45 is a pretty significant jump (close to 20%) and it really woke the car up, particularly noticeable when exiting roundabouts. Interestingly had very little or no impact on my economy as with a cammed L76 (DOD removed) with 280+rwkw I have seen very low 9s on a 40km freeway trip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizt
As comparison, pre cam with 260rwkw and the 3.45 diff it did a 12.83 at 112mph. My previous SSV sedan with virtually identical mods also had 260rwkw on the same dyno and with stock 2.92 diff in very similar conditions at the same track ran a best of 13.17 at 108mph. Don't fall for the common trap of thinking utes are lighter either!
I remember reading a thread a few years ago where someone with a reasonably quick VE A6 ran at the drags with all the ratios 2.92 (Holden A6), 3.27 (HSV A6), 3.45 (Holden M6) and 3.7 (HSV M6) and concluded that HSV had it right - his best results were with the 3.27. A while after my 3.45s were in I got hold of a set of 3.27s and after much debate sold them on again as I decided I was more than happy with the 3.45s.
I have no experience with Trutracks but they add a lot of expense and particularly given your financial situation probably aren't justifiable until you have big power.
Also, depending which side of Melbourne you're on you could have Chev tune your car now with catback only which will make a big difference and then tweak the tune if/when you get diff/extractors/OTR. Unlike many places he doesn't charge $50 - $100+ for each tune tweak to cater for additional bolt on mods. He does them for free because he believes that's part of what you pay for when you get a tune.
Funny you should say this, I did:Quote:
Originally Posted by V28VX37
1. Brakes (Chose the redline for the brembos from the factory).
2. Pedders coilovers
3. Catback exhaust
4. OTR
5. Tune & extractors
6. Heavy duty sway bars
7. Cam and stall
8. Wheels and tyres
Nicely played :)Quote:
Originally Posted by calais190
Actually, to revise my original list, tyres should come first. The basic idea is Pirelli's 'power is nothing without control' - better to get the control side sorted first before going crazy with more kw's. But that's just my $0.02, each to their own.
Always done it this way as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by V28VX37
Some great info in here guys, thanks heaps.
I wish the place that tuned my car would do a touch up for $50-$100. Everywhere I've contacted wants over $400 to touch up the tune :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonky
Does that include the place that originally did it? I can understand others wanting more and in fact the impression I have is most will basically charge you for a full tune as often it's quicker to just start from scratch rather than try to find then resolve problems in a tune someone else has done.
Yeah, that includes the place that originally tuned the car. They are very well known and I don't doubt they do awesome work, just seems a bit crazy to charge so much just for a cai change and diff gears. Maybe I'm just used to import tuners that generally charge by the hour from my experience :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonky
Anyway, sorry to go a bit off topic OP
No probs at all.
Finding a tuner that doesn't charge an arm and a leg for each update is on topic really :)
Scary!! :shock: If Chev had done your original tune he'd tweak the tune for free for you! :yup: Obviously from a business perspective there's a limit to his generosity so he'd eventually draw the line if someone turned up every few weeks wanting a tune tweak due to some minor change they'd made, but as long as they are sensible about it, no problem. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ***VX*R8***
OP
I've got an LS2 but most of the mods relate to your build as well...
This is the order I did it in cos I hate wasting money
Exhaust - headers and full system
Intake - Alloy CAI and tune
Pulleys- Powerbond underdrive
Suspension - Pedders Sports Ryder and Nolathane bushes all round
Gearbox - out with the Auto and in with a T56
Brakes - Harrop Ultimates
Diff - Eaton TruTrac 3.9 and Harrop Enduro diff cover
Fuel Delivery - Swirlpot and hiflow pump
next
LSX 454, LS7 crate motor or local builder utilising LS2 block and LS3 heads
hope that helps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonky
Wonk`s, I have Desktop Dyno and Desktop drag 2003. A simulated standard VZ SS A4 picks up 0.15 s over the 1/4 mile when a 3.46 ratio is used over the stock 3.07. Another 0.15 is picked up when fitting a 3.73. The biggest difference is the time spent in each gear. A 3.07 is ok in 1st as the 4L60 has a low 1st ratio, 2nd hurts as it takes a while to wind through it, 3rd isnt too bad as the ratio/rpm drop isn`t too big but it still winds out. A 3.46 gives the best looking graph ie rpms,speed,time spent in gear etc. A 3.73 rips through the gears (1st is done with in a heartbeat) and needs the rev limiter raised to avoid bashing it in 3rd gear.
The same trend is seen when using a M6 and the ratios used with the M6 (3.46,3.73,3.9)
Moral of the story, sometimes the best sounding ratio isn`t actually the best one for the job. Considering these are (fast sporty) family street cars first and drag cars 2nd.
Cheers Phill
Sorry Phill, I'm obviously missing the point of your moral. :doh: The OP has a VE A6 and was asking about modifications which led onto discussions about diff ratios. Given we're talking about go fast mods one would assume he's looking for best pick up off the mark. Therefore whilst I love the 3.45 in my A6 the point I was making is that if he does change the diff, testing by someone experienced at the drags has shown HSV seemed to get it right with 3.27 for the A6.
Basically Wonk`s, I`m agreeing with you, sometimes the lowest ratio available isn`t necessarily the best for the what are "family cars" first and "drag cars" second.
Your diff ratio change netted a gain of 0.3s on a VE, the desktop drag program on a VZ also netted a gain of 0.3s when the ratio is changed from 3.07 to 3.73.
A VT-VZ A4 with 3.7`s is very snappy/punchy/annoying and feels fast but isnt much faster than plain old 3.07`s (when stock).
Not that holden are perfect but they would spend considerable time/money testing things (like diff ratios) to try and get it right. A 3.45 would be punchy but a 3.27 prob works best as you found out.
Merry xmas Wonky.
I'll throw my 2c in here, but strictly speaking pre-VE and with a bolt-ons setup. Over the 1/4 the change may not be that dramatic for a diff change, but around town/0-100km/hr you really feel the difference. I lost over a sec 0-100 from a diff change alone. Also I believe over the 1/4 most people achieve a lot better than 0.3 improvement in the real world. I'm not sure were the statement "a VT-VZ A4 with 3.7`s is very snappy/punchy/annoying and feels fast but isnt much faster than plain old 3.07`s (when stock)." comes from? There is no way I find my A4 with 4.11 annoying and jumping from a set of lights to the speed limit it is definitely a great improvement from the 3.07, not just feeling fast but the stopwatch (GTech) shows it.
For the OP. TURBOS straight up. You'll save in the long run. :close thread:
I just improve on the weakest area of the car each time i perform a modification so that overall performance is improved. With my wagon I think i did brakes, trutrac and gears, suspension, catback and tune then progressed from there.
Good advice!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmfan
Unless you have a Redline. SSV Z, or a HSV, the standard brakes are the weakest point.
Around town a 3.73 is no doubt a punchy feeling diff and on the street it would feel fast aswell. I`m sure someone has done a real life 3.07 to 3.73 (A4) 1/4 mile time comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by QldKev
My 0.3s comes from DESKTOP DRAG 2003, the biggest change is the time spent in each gear. 3.07 winds out vs 3.73 romping into 3rd asap and then winding out into the (stock) limiter, 0.3s and 1.5 mph faster than 3.07`s.
3.7`s might be annoying for some but fine for others. Not forgetting these cars are family cars first and drag cars 2nd for most people here. I was mainly agreeing with Wonky in regards to his finding of the lowest isn`t the best for the street.
Cheers Phill
Times on the 1/4 are also affected by proximity to the finish line when the car hits max revs in the penultimate gear. If it happens fairly close to the line you either lose time by bouncing off the limiter or lose time by changing to the next gear i.e. for that reason times on the 1/4 don't necessarily equate to performance on the road where there's no defined finish line.
1.TintQuote:
Originally Posted by Drizt
2.Full exhaust
3.brakes (unless you have a decent HSV set)
4.OTR and tune
5.Wheels/tyres/Suspension
That's it - no other mods, haven't upgraded a stereo in a car since I was a kid.
Given my diff is a single spinner, what sort of dollars are we talking to convert it to LSD? (Factory LSD or upgrade to TruTrack)
??
Cheapest way is to pick up an LSD from someone upgrading, typically from someone with an SS/SSV M6 (3.45) they're upgrading to HSV 3.7. That's how I got my very low km 3.45 for $500 or so. I'd definitely recommend changing from the stock 2.92 ratio to either 3.27 (HSV A6) or 3.45 (SS/SSV M6) because it really wakes them up and is the icing on the cake for all other mods. About $100 labour to do the swap.
Alternatively if your main aim is just the LSD and you're happy to stick with 2.92 you'll sometimes find people who've upgraded to 3.27 or 3.45 selling their oriiginal SS/SSV A6 diff for around $250 - $300.
Excellent. Thanks for the info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonky
I thought all V8's since the intro of the LS engines had LSD from factory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizt
I have 3 freinds with LS1's, a VT2 exec, a VY Berlina and a WL statesman and they are all factory stock and all have LS diffs, all bought 2nd hand so not sure if they were optioned up when new.
Also as Wonky said keep an eye out at wreckers and ebay for 2nd hand LSD's.
My mate with the WL found a 3.46 a few years ago for $450 off ebay from a local Sydney wrecker and it has been fine, and sold the LS 3.07 diff for $300 to a kid with a sigle pegger V6.
Mine only leaves one black line :)
SS and SSV VE's get LSD as standard, Calais and CalaisV are options.
What's the go with a trutrack? Could I buy one and put it in my current diff or is there more to it? Price?
Its a completely new centre. So yes you could put one in yours. They are awesome. Make a normal LSD look absolutely stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizt
Cool. Sounds like a winner.
So I could probably spend $600 to $700 and get a second hand holden lsd with any ratio is want or I could put in a trutrack at $2000 and keep the standard ratio. Or a combination of the two.
Anyone got a link / diagram that shows all the parts in the diff?
Keep in mind the LSD will only work for a Limited time ;)
The TrueTrac will work pretty much forever if you keep clean Oil in it!
Have to agree with that, I replaced an LSD with a Truetrac (in a non LS car) and the cars behaviour was much more predictable, the LSD would spin one then the other, sometime both, the truetrac was both all the time, you knew exactly how the car was going to behave when provoked.Quote:
Originally Posted by macca_779
Thanks for all the help guys. I believe I have now locked down the order of my TODO list.
Mind you, I might never get past the OTR on the list.
Cat back - Done (might update this later on though)
Tune - Will talk to Chev's in a month or so about getting a tune (auto tune as well).
TruTrack - Probably keep the current gears.
OTR (and touch up tune)
extractors / cats (and touch up tune) - might update the catback at the same time, will have to wait and see.
Coil overs
Breaks
Sound system etc.
etc
Ok, well it took a bit more time than I expected but I have contacted Chev about getting a service and tune done. I look forward to seeing what the results are :)