VF Commodore Electric handbrake could cause a problem...

Just been reading a story about the Tesla Model S, the US electric car. Long story short, batteries end up flat and because the handbrake was on and it is an electric handbrake, flat bettery meant couldn't release the handbrake. This might be a bit of an annoyance if you have a manual VF, park the car with the handbrake on and the battery goes flat, you won't be able to push/roll start it because you won't be able to release the handbrake.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...e/#more-477288

Cheers, Matthew

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Originally Posted by Jag530G

Just been reading a story about the Tesla Model S, the US electric car. Long story short, batteries end up flat and because the handbrake was on and it is an electric handbrake, flat bettery meant couldn't release the handbrake. This might be a bit of an annoyance if you have a manual VF, park the car with the handbrake on and the battery goes flat, you won't be able to push/roll start it because you won't be able to release the handbrake.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...e/#more-477288

Cheers, Matthew

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I guess it depends on how it works and perhaps how much current it uses (if any) when the brake is on. I would be thinking they would use current to operate or release the brake, but once operated or released, no current used to maintain it in that state, maybe a held by a spring once operated? The Captiva II already has an electric handbrake.

I agree the default condition no battery power hand brake fully engaged until battery power restored!

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Originally Posted by redvxr8clubby

I guess it depends on how it works and perhaps how much current it uses (if any) when the brake is on. I would be thinking they would use current to operate or release the brake, but once operated or released, no current used to maintain it in that state, maybe a held by a spring once operated? The Captiva II already has an electric handbrake.

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Yes, that's right, I understand power is only required to change to and from handbrake on/handbrake off, doesn't need power to stay on or off. But is the problem in this instance of a flat battery. If you had the handbrake on and the battery goes flat, you won't be able to release the handbrake so you can roll/push start the car. Basically you're stuck and will need a jump start but no push start.

Cheers, Matthew

don't think there will be a prob we recently had our Captiva sit in the garage for a week and a half with out moving and it started straight away.

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Originally Posted by redvxr8clubby

I guess it depends on how it works and perhaps how much current it uses (if any) when the brake is on. I would be thinking they would use current to operate or release the brake, but once operated or released, no current used to maintain it in that state, maybe a held by a spring once operated? The Captiva II already has an electric handbrake.

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Giving the notoriety of VEs making batteries flat then it would be worrying for some. Tbh though if there wasn't a backup charge for this I would be suprised

If the battery is completely flat (which from my knowledge was only a problem for early model VE's and has been fixed since) and you have a manual not an auto you better hope you have a clear path because your steering lock will activate..

If your battery is not "completely" flat you will still have enough power to disengage the hand brake.

I know this because my wife's Captiva had a faulty battery which was near flat, couldn't get the engine to turn over but we could disengage the hand brake.

...Or some kind of mechanical override, you'd think

Well considering the car will be parked to let a battery go flat, moving it shouldn't be a big issue. Push starting it still requires some power, so if you got that you should be able to release the handbrake. Plus most people have Auto's anyway so your going to need a jump pack which mitigates any issue. EPB's aren't new.

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Originally Posted by macca_779

Well considering the car will be parked to let a battery go flat, moving it shouldn't be a big issue. Push starting it still requires some power, so if you got that you should be able to release the handbrake. Plus most people have Auto's anyway so your going to need a jump pack which mitigates any issue. EPB's aren't new.

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Agree -no problem,
My new Holden VOLT has electric park brake - the worst that can happen as above (flat 12v battery) so you need to jump start the car for a little juice and it will release the brake then.
Much like shift lock on other brands.

PS I absolutely like my Electric park brake - it's like lowering or lifting the landing gear in a plane.
Plus....
If I ever need extra park brake application on a really steep hill, I activate it twice and it applies extra !

No need to worry Electric park brake as it has many benefits and is way cool - than that crappy lever from the early 1900's
dragging meters of cable, welcome to the current world of drive by wire - even for the park brake system as well now.

So how many more VOLT features in the new VF ? ;-)

Cheers,

Martin

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Originally Posted by macca_779

Well considering the car will be parked to let a battery go flat, moving it shouldn't be a big issue. Push starting it still requires some power, so if you got that you should be able to release the handbrake. Plus most people have Auto's anyway so your going to need a jump pack which mitigates any issue. EPB's aren't new.

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exactly right, basically there's nothing to worry about... unless you want to use the handbrake for sliding the rear end doing some rallying in your commodore :hide:

Hey Martin on the volt is it like some euros where if you open the door with the car off it activates automatically. Also does it disengage automatically when you apply throttle.

Actually another question is if these cars have electric steering and you have a flat battery, can you steer the car at all, I assume not. Of course power steering cars are very difficult to steer without the engine running, but you can get some wheel movement, I assume there would be no steering until you get some power after startup, or is it electrically power assisted and similar behaviour to normal power steer cars if the engine isn't running?

Can anyone explain to me the benefits of replacing a lever, cable and simple ratching mechanism with a complicated electrical system to perform the same job? is pulling the hand brake lever that taxing that we need the car to do it for us?

Jeez lets wait till the car is actually on the salesroom floor before we start predicting the end of the world of what COULD happen

The electric park brake in my old Dicovery had a manual override for disengaging it. You pulled a decorative panel off behind the switch to do it.

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Originally Posted by Xjas

Can anyone explain to me the benefits of replacing a lever, cable and simple ratching mechanism with a complicated electrical system to perform the same job? is pulling the hand brake lever that taxing that we need the car to do it for us?

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It's like comparing manual and electric windows....

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Originally Posted by macca_779

Hey Martin on the volt is it like some euros where if you open the door with the car off it activates automatically. Also does it disengage automatically when you apply throttle.

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No it's doesn't activate automatically on door open - I park inside garage and I glad it doesn't bother to do that.
However It is too clever ....
I put car into service mode to shut it down in Neutral - so I could on the hoist clean the wheels easier and the bugger went oh you want to leave me in Neutral powered down........
as I hear it applying the park brake LOL!

I believe it is designed to disengage the park brake upon throttle ( haven't tried that feature myself yet - but One day I will forget)

Cheers,
Martin

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Originally Posted by Ausmartin1

No it's doesn't activate automatically on door open - I park inside garage and I glad it doesn't bother to do that.
However It is too clever ....
I put car into service mode to shut it down in Neutral - so I could on the hoist clean the wheels easier and the bugger went oh you want to leave me in Neutral powered down........
as I hear it applying the park brake LOL!

I believe it is designed to disengage the park brake upon throttle ( haven't tried that feature myself yet - but One day I will forget)

Cheers,
Martin

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Yeah cool I figured it would be automatic in one way or another. It's like all cars I've driven with them. You never actually have to touch the button as it knows to apply when you shut it off and disengages when you proceed.

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Originally Posted by Xjas

Can anyone explain to me the benefits of replacing a lever, cable and simple ratching mechanism with a complicated electrical system to perform the same job? is pulling the hand brake lever that taxing that we need the car to do it for us?

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simpler to install (less adjustments), weigh less, cost less, auto release on acceleration, some auto engage when the car is stopped, won't lock up the rear wheels when used as an emergency, work with your ABS, easier to apply (no guessing if its tight enough), theres probably more but I'm not in the mood to think too hard at the moment.

On early US Volts you had special screw driver to release the mechanism from the boot, They did away with this easy way of last resort as the system proved to be very reliable.

It's like all things 707 had control by wire = long wires can stretch/wear break vs now fly by wire with multiple backup system in your Airbus or Boeings, technology always filters down, because some where it has benefits for the designer /reliability and consumers..

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Originally Posted by kevin101

simpler to install (less adjustments), weigh less, cost less, auto release on acceleration, some auto engage when the car is stopped, won't lock up the rear wheels when used as an emergency, work with your ABS, easier to apply (no guessing if its tight enough), theres probably more but I'm not in the mood to think too hard at the moment.

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And takes up less space on the centre console and and looks much nicer than the current VE handbrake. ;)

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Originally Posted by kevin101

simpler to install (less adjustments), weigh less, cost less.

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Have you seen an article or similar from a manufacturer that states these things? I was under the impression the brake mechanism was the same, just that it was electronically acutated by a stepper motor or something similar, if thats the case I cant see the system being any simpler, lighter or cheaper than a mechanical system. The rest of you points seem fair enough though.

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Originally Posted by redvxr8clubby

Actually another question is if these cars have electric steering and you have a flat battery, can you steer the car at all, I assume not. Of course power steering cars are very difficult to steer without the engine running, but you can get some wheel movement, I assume there would be no steering until you get some power after startup, or is it electrically power assisted and similar behaviour to normal power steer cars if the engine isn't running?

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The car will still have a mechanical link in the steering even if it is power assisted. It is a ADR requirement so if you have a failure you will still be able to steer the car albeit with a bit greater effort

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Originally Posted by Xjas

Have you seen an article or similar from a manufacturer that states these things? I was under the impression the brake mechanism was the same, just that it was electronically acutated by a stepper motor or something similar, if thats the case I cant see the system being any simpler, lighter or cheaper than a mechanical system. The rest of you points seem fair enough though.

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Yep read a bit about them a few months back, wasn't too sure about purchasing a new Captiva for the wife with one since I've never knew anything about them. Turns out unless you want to use the hand brake for anything other than it's actual purpose they are great. A quick google and you'll find plenty of information about them.

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Originally Posted by Xjas

Can anyone explain to me the benefits of replacing a lever, cable and simple ratching mechanism with a complicated electrical system to perform the same job? is pulling the hand brake lever that taxing that we need the car to do it for us?

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Compared to a VE, you get a handbrake that can be easily disengaged by press of a button. My other half absolutely hates the VE handbrake. If I've engaged it as normal, she probably won't be able to release it. If I know she will need to drive it, I have to be careful to make sure I only engage it very lightly. The VE handbrake is the worst I can recall in 40 years of driving cars. My daughter also has a VE, doesn't like the handbrake either, doesn't do Holden any favours if half the population hates the handbrake. I would say to some buyers, the electric handbrake will be a selling point of the VF.

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Originally Posted by kevin101

simpler to install (less adjustments), weigh less, cost less, auto release on acceleration, some auto engage when the car is stopped, won't lock up the rear wheels when used as an emergency, work with your ABS, easier to apply (no guessing if its tight enough), theres probably more but I'm not in the mood to think too hard at the moment.

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Guessing if the hand brake is tight enough? Pull it on and take your foot off the brake. If the car doesn't move hey presto it is tight enough. The electric park brake is only going to be a problem if it can't be released manually. Tow truck driver I spoke with the other day has persuaded some cars with electric park brakes onto the back of his truck. If you have an electric park brake I would ask someone how to manually disengage it in case you need to.

anything non electric these days is a sin apparently. Someone the other day was complaining that some car (could have been commodore) didnt have electric headrests. the horror...

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Originally Posted by Xjas

Can anyone explain to me the benefits of replacing a lever, cable and simple ratching mechanism with a complicated electrical system to perform the same job? is pulling the hand brake lever that taxing that we need the car to do it for us?

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its cause of the 'Jones's' next door....

Let's see.....

Power is needed to run the ECM, BCM, Fuel pump, injectors and you still need power to enable the alternator to start working.

If there's not enough battery power to run all of the above, there's no use worrying about trying to get the hand brake to release. If there's enough power to run the above, there's enough power to release the hand brake, though maybe not enough to crank.

Simon.

Oh, and as for changing the lever out, that would be due to it being the most ugly part of any car that's ever been made....

This may be stupid, but:

I wonder if any electric car engineers thought of building a dynamo ratched into the handbrake lever? Keep the brake electric, but in the case of flat battery then act of pulling/pushing the lever would generate enough power to trigger whichever relay controls the park brake.

While I can see the benefit of an electric park brake (no time wear and tightening of the cable for example), I'd absolutely hate to think what would happen if you have a relay fault in the park brake causing it to go off while driving :confused:
After all, a relay switch is still susceptible to becoming faulty but at least a mechanical handbrake's default position is "off" rather than either way in the case of a relay.

My car has electric handbrake and a friend was asking me all about it. He said a handbrake is for an emergency stop, does the elec handbrake work if you need it in an emergency whilst driving?

Didn't have a clue and not sure I'm game to try it, does anyone know?

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Originally Posted by csv rulz

Didn't have a clue and not sure I'm game to try it, does anyone know?

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Dunno about others but the one in my Discovery3 would only work if you were travelling less than a couple of km/s an hour.

If you pulled it up whilst travelling at speed it would just beep at you.

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Originally Posted by C4B

Dunno about others but the one in my Discovery3 would only work if you were travelling less than a couple of km/s an hour.

If you pulled it up whilst travelling at speed it would just beep at you.

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That's what I thought. So it effectively means that the handbrake is useless in an emergency situation.

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Originally Posted by csv rulz

That's what I thought. So it effectively means that the handbrake is useless in an emergency situation.

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Just double checked and according to the manual if you held the park brake button up (continually) while travelling at speed it would slowly apply the park brakes (whilst beeping and carrying on like the world was ending presumably). Obviously this wouldn't be as useful as a traditional handbrake if you realized you had no brakes 1/2 second before you ran up the ass of another car, but if you were say on the highway travelling at 110km/h it would allow you to stop in a controlled manner.

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Originally Posted by C4B

Just double checked and according to the manual if you held the park brake button up (continually) while travelling at speed it would slowly apply the park brakes (whilst beeping and carrying on like the world was ending presumably). Obviously this wouldn't be as useful as a traditional handbrake if you realized you had no brakes 1/2 second before you ran up the ass of another car, but if you were say on the highway travelling at 110km/h it would allow you to stop in a controlled manner.

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Thanks for the info, handy to know

Seriously? When is the last time someone push started a car? If the battery is so flat that it won't disengage a piddly handbrake, how do you expect the immobiliser, security system, ECU, PCM, BCM and other electronic modules to run, allowing the car to start? And emergency stops? Tell me the last time your dual redundant circuit hydraulic braking system with ABS and ESP and a swag of safety monitoring failed completely resulting in absolutely no braking ability whatsoever. And you haven't been able to use the handbrake while moving in an automatic commodore since VT, they just go clunk, beep, and you keep moving.

I'm calling fail on this thread. Most of us don't live in the mid 1970s anymore...

I can remember when people used to argue against automatic transmissions because you couldn't slow the car sufficiently if the brakes failed.

Time marches on.....

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Originally Posted by C4B

I can remember when people used to argue against automatic transmissions because you couldn't slow the car sufficiently if the brakes failed.

Time marches on.....

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The handbrake saved me with my old VT a few times. I had it put on gas but they plumbed it wrong. Converter melts freezing and would stall the car at random. Had it stall on me going down a big hill, lost all brakes and steering.

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Originally Posted by csv rulz

The handbrake saved me with my old VT a few times. I had it put on gas but they plumbed it wrong. Converter melts freezing and would stall the car at random. Had it stall on me going down a big hill, lost all brakes and steering.

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Err, no? You lose power assist for brakes and steering. Even the user manual for a commodore says what to do in this situation and it has nothing to do with the handbrake.